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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14461	The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe; Disputations chrestiennes. English	Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571.; Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564.; Brooke, John, d. 1582.	1579 (1579)	STC 24776; ESTC S119193	490,810	627

colde coniectures Nowe Iesus Christ who is the infallible veritie woulde not that we should builde the articles of our fayth vppon coniectures but vpon the expresse veritie For sith that he and his Apostles doe witnesse that they haue man●fested all that which was necessary to our saluation hath commended to vs so much the loue towards our bretheren it is not lyke to be true but is repugnant to the witnesse of Iesus Christ that they haue spoken vnto vs so obscurely haue giuen vnto vs onely some coniectures of this matter and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead the which the Priestes doe wrest it more then that which is due vnto those that be liuing Hillarius Bicause that Iesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely therefore they would make commentaries gloses for to declare it bicause that it bringeth vnto them more profit Thomas Thou hast opened a place Theophilus of which I would gladly be resolued that is to say of the preaching to the dead For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed mused after it bicause that I considered y according to the witnesse of the Scripture n●ne can haue saluation but thorowe the faith in Iesus Christ Now if we do compare those which haue knowne Iesus Christ and haue beleeued in him with those which haue not beleeued and which haue neuer hard him speake the number of those here shal be very little in respect of others Wherefore it followeth that there should be a merua●lous number of the damned that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigor iudgement Now it is straunge to mans reason to iudge that God will dampne so many chie●●y sith y he hath had as many which haue not known Iesus Christ for want that one hath not shewed him vnto them Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those héere is not much out of reason And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it for I will accord and agrée almost sooner to that then to the opinion of Purgatory Theophilus Thou hast moued a question the whiche cannot be expressed and absolued in few wordes For we must first declare what knowledge of Iesus Christ is necessary vnto saluation and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world among all people nations And how it hath ben sufficiently manifested vnto the elect for their saluation to the reprobate for their condempnation Insomuch that they are all inexcusable they cannot alledge ignorance sufficient for to excuse them And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time that we maye speake more amply of it and better to satisfie the question which is made dayly touching the saluation or dampnation of our predecessors which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce Yet neuerthelesse bicause that the places which we haue accustomed to alledge for y preaching to the dead may also serue to the matter at this present time I am contented y we do entreat of them for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the same nor the Limbe nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make thē serue But for that that it may be that Eusebus doth put them foorth amongst his defenses it were better that we do delay that matter vntil such time as he bringeth it in by course in following his matter by order or if be do it not thou maist put me in remembrance Thomas Yet neuerthelesse before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open I wil propound vnto him an argument concerning the point of which we haue entreated off that is to say of the remission forgiuenes of sinnes in the other world Whervpon I demaund of thée Eusebius when Iesus Christ did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church as wel in y person of S. Peter as vnto al y church generally that he declare the power of them of the ecclesiastical ministry hath he not sayd namely That which thou shalt binde in earth shall be bound in heauen that which thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen He sayth not That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde in heauen or in Purgatory or in hell or in the other world or in the other life and in an other earth but speaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen in the which the Euangelical ministry hath his vigor and strength I wil not reiterate that that you said of the forgiuenes of fault paine For al that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that haue receiued the power of him doe verye euill vnderstand their office willing to extend and stretch the power of their keyes pardons and indulgences vnto the other world and vnto the dead which haue their estate a part and seperated from ours and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth which hath not to regard but on the liuing Eusebius Alexander of Ales Gabriel Biel haue very wel satisfied y obiectiō For they do answere y the dead ought to be accōpted to be yet vpō the earth as touching y absolutiō or ligatiō binding or vnbinding vntil y they are passed entred into the kingdome of heauen For whilest y the soules are in purgatory they are vpon the earth sith that they are not yet in heauē that they are yet of the Church militant not of y triumphāt Furthermore euen as those which are in the earth are yet in the way and not at the end full marke so are those which are deteined in Purgatory They are in passing for to goe to the countrey as touching the purgation by the which they are purged passe to the country as by y way Although y they are at the ende marke as touching the confirmation For they can no more sinne nor merit Furthermore all the while that they are ayded receiue comfort of the temporall earthly goods by prayers one may well holde accompt them for to be yet of this world sith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there Hillarius He will accompt then of the dead as of the Monkes which are dead to the world in some pointes but not in other some They are dead to the world as to that that they doe serue and profit no person no more then the dead But they are not dead as to eating and drinking and to other carnall workes For in y there is not a people which doe better liue in the world nor which are more of the world Euen so shall it be of the dead They shal be dead to vs for to giue vs

wel assured of it But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true it is great felly for the papistes to bestowe any more any pennye nor halfe pennye neither for the funerals nor for y masses vigils nor other suffrages for y dead that they should reiect a● other manner of doings for to hold themselues onely to y buls pardons and to buy them for to draw the s●ules from Purgatory For it should not cost them so much should haue sooner dispatched ri● away the poore soules from Purgatory For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the Church hath the power as Alexander de Ales witnesseth by the power of his keys by the meanes of his indulgences to distribute bestow them as wel to the liuing as to the dead the Papistes haue no more néede of any other thing For euen as they haue by their Masses and other inu●ntions abolished put out the vertue of the death and passion and of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ so the Popes which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue abolished masses suffrages al meritorious works for the quicke for the dead which their predec●ssors haue inuented without the word of god And so by that meanes one shal haue no more néede not onely of Iesus Christ but also of their masses nor of all that that they can do but it is sufficient for al to haue paper parchment written and buls signed sealed with waxe or with lead ●ut which is more I am very much abashed how they dare to attribute so much power ouer y dead to their buls keys absolutiōs sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decre●als Canons doe witnesse and openly confesse that the church can bind● and vnbinde those y be liuing not the dead and that w●e doe not read that the same was euer cōmaunded or done not of Iesus Christ himselfe which al●ne hath the power to do that But hath said namely vnto S. Peter Al that that thou shalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth shal be bound in heauē He hath said namely vpon earth For he hath neuer sayd that he that shal be dead being bound shal be vnb●und Beholde the very wordes of the Canons which doe well way the wordes of Iesus Christ and doe confirme y that I haue said of the authoritie of the keyes at the least in this place in which is said very plainely that by those words of the gospell is declared that none can be excommunicated or absolued a●ter he is dead For he saith That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth He sayth not vnder the earth declaring that we may binde and vn binde those that be alyue for y diuersitie of their merits but we cannot giue sentence of the dead Beholde the question that Gratian propounded the resolution in his owne words Thomas How can that agrée with that which hath bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead It must néeds be that the canons be contrary the one vnto the other Theophilus That is not newe nor rare with them But the glosers doe excuse that by their interpretacions and exceptions I doe not denye but that we may condempne dempne after that one is deade the false doctrine that a man and an Hereticke shall holde during his lyfe if then it be manifested euen as it might bée done by some of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples for to aduertise the Churches to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themselues But to excommunicate and curse the persons I knowe or sée not how that can bée bo●ne with all by the holy Scripture ●ith that they are before theyr Iudge vnto whome the Angells did sende the Diuell as is written of Michael the Archangell who disputing with the Diuell about the body of Mo●es durst not vse rayling iudgement agaynst him but said vnto him The Lord rebuke thée Yet neuerthelesse those heere dare to enterprise more agaynst men both quick and dead then the Angells durst agaynst the Diuels although that they holde them already for most certe●●e to be condemp●●ed of God. Hillarius I am yet abashed of one thing If the Pope haue such power to giue full remission from payne and fault by his bulles moulgences aswell for the quick as for the soules of the dead I meruayle that hée hath not already long sithence made empti● and cleansed Purgatory and that he hath not fetched out all the soules sith that he giueth so many pardons dayly and hourely and not only he but al ●is Cardinals bishops priests monks Eusebius There is a goodly aunswere vnto that question The first is for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory The other is euen as Saint Thomas saint Bonauenture doe aunswere vnto that obiection that it is very requisite and needefull before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable that it haue reasonable cause and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church in which are assembled and comprised al the merits of Iesus Christ all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes which euer were should be done with moderation and discression or otherwise god will not accept it And therefor the pardons indulgences are not giuen vnto any person eyther for him or for any other be he quicke or dead but by reason of some good worke that he hath done eyther for him selfe or in the name of those for whome the pardon is giuen And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which haue the charge to giue them al do know be they Cardinals Archbishops Bishops Abbots Moonks or Priests how many they may giue euery day except the Pope which hath not his power limitted except he vse thē vnreasonably the pardōs thē that he wil giue shal not be auaileable with god Hillarius I vnderstand what thou wouldest say The pope hath heaped vp together all the merits of Iesus Christ of the patriarchs prophets Apos tles Martirs confessors virgins saints saintes of paradise of al the Christian Church in a treasure and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or shut distribute little or much when he will and as it pleaseth him For he is the great lockesimth But al the others are but as his seruaunts of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one in such sort that they cannot distribute but that that he hath delyuered vnto them and of whom they haue the keyes Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in the treasury garner a great many of seuerall chābers and cabins of which many must haue the keyes euery one his owne for to depart and bestow that whereoff he hath the dispensation without daring to touche the

they would preach Iesus Christ couert and hid let them not be angry if wée preach him all naked and openly and him crucified And if we cannot glory but in the foolishnesse of his crosse as the Apostle sayth the which yet neuerthelesse is the true wisdome of GOD althoughe that the worlde reputeth it foolishnesse For we doe well perceiue what profite there commeth of their so hidden preachings of which none can almost receiue any fruite except he vnderstand the matter that they intreate off almost as well as they themselues For what vtilitie and profite can there come vnto the poore 〈…〉 rant people for whome the sermons oughte to be chiefest made doe they not alwayes continue in their errors and are they not confirmed the more by their darke questions and hyd words the which the hearers do draw and take for their aduauntage and interprete them after their owne sence and meaning and not after the meaning of the speaker except he doe expounde if playnly or at the least in manner that one vnderstande not one thing for an other For the poore people cannot vnderstande that Sophistry nor comprehend their darke questions and problemes who haue yet much adoe ●o vnderstande that which one declareth vnto them as vnto lyttle children For if a learned man knoweth very well hew to drawe out of their sermons the consequences the which they will entreate off how many shall one finde of others which wyll doe cleane contrary And although there were but their stlence by the which they doe dissimule the abuses and the Idolatry doe they not approue sufficiently the false relygion I doe feare very much that one shall not finde many amongst these so wise and discréet which are so prompt and ready to iudge and condempne all those which follow not their counsayle and carnall wisedome of suche an aduise and opinion as Demades was who did mocke the Athenians bicause they did put themselues in daunger to fall into the indignation and displeasure of Alexander the great and to loose their landes townes and countryes bicause they refused to giue vnto the sayd Alexander the diuine honours and to worship him as a God vnto whom Demades sayd Take ye good héed least in kéeping the Heauen you do lose the earth willyng therby to giue the Athenians to vnderstande that they were great fooles to put themselues in such daunger for to kéepe the honour of the Gods And that it were better for them to be Idolaters of men and to honour Alexander as a GOD then to loose both bodye and goodes whose counsayle they followed Wherefore Diogenes in mocking and iesting of their vanitie and flatterie saide vnto them Sith that you haue made Alexander a God and doe honour him for Bacchus make mée also Serapis and honour mée as him For euen as Bacchus was honoured among the Satyres so was Serapis honoured and worshipped in Aegypt in the lykenesse of an O●e and taken for the great God of whome the lawe was made that whosoeuer did call him a man and did not accompt and take him for God should loose his lyfe Wherefore almost in all the temples and churches in which Serapis was honoured and Isis in lyke manner they vsed to holde an Image lyke vnto that which the Romaynes called Augerona the which some doe call Harpocrates who did holde his finger agaynst his mouth admonishing euery one to kéepe silence least they should speake any thing agaynst those goodly Gods which might bring hurte vnto the speakers O woulde to God that we had not so many Alexanders Serapis and Isis who being●nortall men would yet neuerthelesse be taken and accompted as Gods among men and that their Idolles lawes ceremonyes traditions statutes and ordinaunces should bée preferred defore God and his woord nor so many Harpocrates which doe not onely make a signe with the finger that those vnto whome God hath giuen the heart to confesse the truth should holde their peace and be not dumine Images but should know very well to rebuke those which haue a better affection then they and which doe speake that which they dare not take in hande For they will not loose the lande or earthe for to kéepe the Heauen and doe accompt and take those for fooles rash and mad which doe make themselues to be persecuted for to uphold and maintaine the word of the Lord. But it is greatly to be feared that in thinking to kéepe the earth the which they preferre before the Heauen they loose both Heauen and earthe as it happeneth vnto many who loued rather to follow the counsaile of Demades then that of Iesus Christ and the example of him and of his Apostles And how do those edifie who in their secret preaching doe put alwayes a rype betwéene two rotten or rather a rotten betwéen two rype disguising as much as they can Gods truth after that they haue preached for the lyttle feare that they shall haue will denye all that which they haue well preached before and will denye Iesus Christe openly to the great slaunder of all the poore faithfull people whome they neuer haue confessed but particularly secretly and priuily I doe not speake this for to rebuke any man of his infirmitie inconstancie or carnall feare by the which he which thinketh to be very hardy constant doth finde hymselfe ouercome But I speake onely vnto a companye of vayne and glorious fooles which doe these thinges and worse and yet neuerthelesse woulde fayne couer and hyde their faults and condemyne the poore faithfull people who hazarde their lyfe for to aduaunce and amplyfie the kingdome of GOD and which boldelye and constatlye rebulie Idolatry and the abuses Mée thinkes that they do euill vnderstand the office of the Prophet to whom it is not onely commaunded of the Lord to plant and buyld vp but also to roote out breake off and to destroy for to plant and buyld afterwards and to cry as loude as he can lyke tho voyce of a trumpet for to shew vnto the people their offences and to the house of Iacob their sinnes If they wil say that we which are out of daunger haue goodly scoffing let them then suffer vs to doe that which they would not dare not or cannot doe If they thinke that it is a matter too vyle for them and that they will not occupy themselues but about graue and waighty matters and of great importance let them suffer vs to play the children with the children and to abase our selues with the lyttle ones and to vse our plaine speach with the rusticall and to edifie the poore ignorant as they doe edifie the wise and to vncouer the errors vnto those which know thē not If they be great Diuines and seuere Philosophers let them accompt vs for young Grammarians who do but a lyttle open and bruse the matters and to chewe vnto the simple people the meate a lyttle more smaller for to prepare them to

the one and the other agréeth more then it doth of the dead to the lyuing Secondly bicause that they themselues can better perceiue of their estate and condition and whether they bée more in payne or whethether they be out of it then we For there is more agréeing of the spirits to the spirits which are seperated from the bodye then to vs which are yet wrapped in them And which is more if that the soules of Purgatory doe know eyther by diuine reuelation or by the report of Angells or of the soules of them which dayly doe depart out of this worlde that which is done vppon earth as your Doctors doe testifie and affirme can they not aswell reporte and tell vnto the Saints that which is done in Purgatory It is not lyke to be true i● there bée any but that they are better aduertised then we and that many wayes And if they be aduertised I cannot beléeue that they are so inhumayne and vngentle if they doe pray for the lyuing but that they doe pray a great deale more for those poore soules sith that they are in so gréeuous torments without any comparison that may be in the world I doe speake alwayes according to your doctrine And this is the thirde reason by the which I will conclude agaynst the Priestes eyther that the Saints doe not praye for the lyuing or the it is in lyke manner necessary and a great dele more néedeful that they pray for the dead Now if they pray for the dead I am of an opinion that we leaue vnto thē al the charge For it agreeth better to them then vnto vs sith that they are no more of this world but of the other in which are those that are dead and that we haue no more cure and charge but of the lyuing If they will deny that they doe not pray for the dead I haue more iust and lawfull reason to deny vnto them that they doe not pray for the lyuing Except peraduenture they would say that the Saintes were as cruell as th●● which will suffer those poore soules alwayes to burne which do bring vnto them no money Hillarius Thou hast put foorth very strong reasons But I will a little helpe Eusebius to defende his cause and will propounde and put forth reasons against th●●e to which thou shalt haue much a doe to aunswere Thou speakest of the saints what wilt thou saye if I proue vnto thée by liuely strong reasons that the Pope hath more power and authoritie then they Theophilus That should be an other ●atter Hillarius I will make thy selfe confesse it Who hath more power and authoritie either God or the saints Theophilus There néedeth not an aunswere vnto thy question For one may vnderstande it without speaking There is not a Papist but will ●asely confesse that there is not a saint which hath vertue nor power but so much as God will giue vnto him Hillarius I haue my meaninge and I will nowe make thée ye●de thy selfe vanquished For thou hast alreadie confessed vnto me of thine owne prop●● mo●th hast co●firmed my proposition the which I ●●l yet better proue vnto thee and I will conclu●e all our dispu●a●ion in a little sillogisme And I will take for my Maior and for the first proposition of my antecedent that which thou hast confessed vnto me Take then my Syll●gisme God hath more power and authoritie then the Saintes Nowe the Pope is god ●●go the Pope hath more power and authoritie then the Saints The Maior is alreadie confessed by thee It resteth now but for to pr●ue the Minor and the second proposition and afterwards the consequence and conclusion s●albe cert●ine and ●●●uby●able Nowe but that the Pope is God in ●arth thou ca●st not d●ny●st for many reasons the which I will not n●we sh●we forth But I will do more For I will pr●ue that he is not onely the God on earth but which is more in heauen and in hell and that he doth make things which God neuer did make Theophilus By that accempt the Pope then shall not haue not only more power then the Saints but more then God himselfe Hillarius It is very true and thou thy selfe shalt Iudge it prouided that thou do heare my reasons I will not alledge for confirmation of my theame that which saint Paul hath written of Antechrist the man of sinne the sonne of perdition which exalteth himselfe aboue all that is called god or which is worshipped so y he shal sit as god in the Temple of God and shew himselfe as God Notwithstanding that that Prophecie and titles doe agrée meruaylously well to that God of whom we speake But I will procéede by an other way the which shall serue for an exposition of those words of Saynt Paul. Theophilus If thou doest as thou sayst the Pope and all the Papists shall be much bounde vnto thée For they say onely that he is God in earth Now if he be but God in the earth he hath then nothing in heauen And he must not open the gates of Paradise vnto the soules of Purgatory And so I may serue my selfe with their publyque witnesse for to proue that which I said of his keyes which cannot be stretched foorth out of this earth Hillarius A man may easely reply thereon For according to their doctrine Purgatory is in the earth Wherefore sith hat he is God in earth he may well haue some power There should be an other reason if Purgatory were betweee the Moone and the earth where Plutarch putteth it except they will say that with the earth they doe also compare the ayre and all the other elements making the Pope aswell God in the ayre water and fire as in the earth at the least thou wilt not deny but that he may wel haue the keyes of hell for to leade thether the soules and that he is the God of the same if it be in the center of the earth according to the common opinion of his Doctors But for to come vnto the matter thou which art a Theologian knowest that there be two manner of wayes to see and know god There is a manner to sée him before a●● a manner to see him behinde To see him before that is to say in his beeing glory and maiestie it is not giuen vnto mortall man For he shall not be capable of such vision and knowledge And therefore hée aunswered vnto Moses who desired to see his glory that he should not sée it before but he would shew vnto him onely his hinder and backe parts I doe vnderstand and meane according to that which I haue learned of some Theologians that to see and know the backe partes of God that is to see and know him by his workes by his effects and in his creatures For sith that he is incomprehensible vnto man in his substaunce glory and maiestie the way and manner that he hath giuen vnto man for to know