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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
earth_n	bind_v	key_n	loose_v	3,794	5	10.2737	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

by which an entrance into heuen is opened because the gates of heauen are as it were vnlocked to them who haue remission and forgiuenes of sinnes and locked to the rest Which thinges being so this summe ariseth of them that sith the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are all one with the power of binding and loosing of remitting and reteining sinnes Christ therefore when he promised the keyes meant that power and when he gaue that power gaue the keyes But he gaue that power to all the Apostles It followeth then he gaue the keyes to them all Hart. You expounde these places I cannot tell how For much of that which you say is said by vs also and yet you agrée not with vs in the principall Howsoeuer you cast the parcels of your count there is a fault in the summe Wherefore you must pardon me if I allow it not For to vse his wordes whose opinion though you mislike him I farre estéeme aboue yours by the name of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen which Christ promised to Peter he simply meant all power whereby the kingdome of heauen in whatsoeuer sense you take it may bee shutte and opened As for that which followeth and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall bee bounde in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen this is not as some haue thought an explication or limitation of the keyes For so by those words should Christ haue restrained the power of Peter to the only outward ecclesiasticall court For it is the common opinion of all the Schoolemen that by those words whatsoeuer yee shall binde and so forth which are like to these wordes spoken vnto Peter and haue the same meaning an ecclesiasticall iudge in the outward court is made as by those other words whose sinnes ye remit and so forth an ecclesiasticall iudge in the inwarde court is made Wherefore if in this place that whatsoeuer thou shalt binde were an explication or limitation of the keies then by the name of keyes were promised to Peter a power iudiciall onely in the ●utward court which is but a part and that a lesser part of the power of the keyes For a great deale more excellent is the power of remitting sinnes then of excommunicating or suspending a man from his office or honour and therfore this may be exercised by him that is not a Priest whereas the other belongeth vnto Priestes onely Againe because our Sauiour addeth with a coniunction whatsoeuer thou shalt binde it must note differently some distinct power at the least in speciall euen as the other things all that go before vttered coniunctiuely are things distinct and different to wit and I say to thee and vpon this peter and hell gates shall not preuaile and to thee will I giue the keyes and lastly and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth and so forth Wherefore in these last wordes is promised to Peter not onely power of binding and loosing in the court either outward or inward which both are onely partiall actions of the keyes But because the keyes themselues were promised him indefinitly and were not restrained to any one kinde of opening or shutting doubtlesse all the power which is conteined in the keyes was promised to him how great soeuer it be and of what sort soeuer Now the whole power and correspondent fully and euenly to the keyes is to open and shut what meanes soeuer it be done by For to open and shut is the duetie of keyes in token whereof the keyes of the citie are brought vnto the chéefest magistrate that by his commandement the citie may be shut and opened To receiue the keyes therefore of the kingdome of heauen is to receiue the power of shutting and opening the kingdome of heauen whither you take the name of the kingdome of heauen for euerlasting life or for the communion of the militant church Now this is done by diuers and many other wayes beside those of binding and loosing in either court For Pastors doo open and shut the kingdome of heauen the one by exercising that power the other by withdrawing it in their whole spirituall gouernment in preaching of the word in ministring of Sacraments in making of lawes in expounding of the holy scripture in declaring articles of faith in deciding pointes of cōtrouersie and doubt To be short the keyes of the church may be diuided into the keye of knowledge and the key of power To open the scriptures belongeth to the key of knowledge which Christ himselfe exercised in the foure and twentieth of Luke and whereof he saide to the Lawiers ye haue taken away the key of knowledge and so foorth The key of power is either of order or iurisdiction And iurisdiction it selfe is either in the outward court by excommunicating by suspending from office by granting of pardons and making of lawes or in the inward court by forgiuing of sinnes All this most ample power correspondent wholly and euenly to the keyes is promised in this place by Christ to Peter onely Which as the force and meaning of the worde keyes so the kinde of spéech of holy scripture sheweth For in Esay the Prophet when it had béene sayd to the hye Priest Eliakim in the figure of Christ The key of the house of Dauid will I laye on his shoulder the scripture declaring the vse of this key dooth by and by adde and he shall open and none shall shut he shal shut and none shall open Which likewise is spoken againe of the person of Christ in the Apocalypse for he is called the holie one and true which hath the key of Dauid which openeth and no man shutteth shutteth and no man openeth Wherefore as Eliakim in figure Christ in truth receiuing the key of the house of Dauid that is of the church or the kingdome of heauen receiued withall the power of shutting and opening in like sort S. Peter being to receiue in the roome and stéede of Christ the keyes of the kingdome of heauen is out of controuersie to receiue withall the power of shutting and opening that is to say not onely of binding and loosing in iudgement of both the courtes which are onely partiall not totall and lesser not chiefe actions of the keyes which also were committed to all the Apostles in the eightienth of Mathew and twentieth of Iohn wheras the keyes were giuen to Peter alone but also besides of gouerning of teaching of disposing and dooing all thinges which may any way belong to the generall duetie of a Pastor which actions are fully and euenly correspondent to the keyes themselues and therefore in those words were promised to Peter alone principally before and ouer all the rest This is D. Stapletons iudgement of the keyes promised to Peter wherein the ground of Peters supremacy and headship ouer the Apostles is set downe verie plainly

and verie strongly proued Rainoldes This long and smooth tale which you haue tolde out of your Doctor is like to that nightingale to which a Lacedemonian when he had plucked her feathers off and sawe a litle caraine left said Thou art a voice nought else Plucke off the feathers of your tale the body is a poore carkase and hath no substance in it Howbeit the names of the two courtes the outward court the inward court with other tunes of like musike are very sweete melodie in the eares of them whose hartes are in the court of Rome As for simple men who haue béene onelye conuersant in the courtes of the Lord they sound to them like straunge languages and seeme to containe more profound mysteries then we can reach the depth off But to open your answere that it may be séene what is vnsound in it this is the point of the thing in controuersie I say that the power promised to Peter by the name of the keyes in the sixtéenth of Matthew was performed and giuen to all the Apostles by the commission of Christ in the twentieth of Iohn You with Stapleton deny it Why Because the keyes promised to Peter do signifie all kind of power wherof a part onely was giuen to the Apostles to bind and loose in either court And how proue you this Forsooth bicause by these wordes whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Christ doth not expound what he meant by the keies as some men say you haue thoughtthat he doth Then some men haue thought that the power of the keyes and the power of binding and loosing are all one the later added by Christ to expound the former In deede I thought so and I perceaue by you that I thought not so alone some other men haue thought it too But you say it is not as some men haue thought Yet you do not tell vs the names of these some men Might we knowe I praye what these some men be Hart. What matter is it who they be sith wee are not of their minde Rainoldes Yes it is a matter For if I knew them it may be I would talke with them Hart. To confirme you in your errour But learned men do vary in expounding of Scriptures some hitte the marke some misse it And D. Stapleton reading many of all ●ortes might fall on some expounding it amisse as you do whom hée for modestie would not name where hee reprooueth their opinion Rainoldes This modestie I like not The truth is hee durst not name them least wee should know them and bee the more strengthned by them in the truth to the confounding of your errour For these some men whom hee so lightly trippeth ouer are but al the Fathers who haue with one consent expounded Christes promise of the keyes as we do Now the exposition which the Fathers make is by his owne iudgement the churches exposition which hath the right sense of the scripture And so while he is launching out into the deepe to fetch in a prise for Peter of Romes supremacie hee maketh shipwracke in the hauen Hart. How know you that the Fathers all haue so expounded it You haue not read them all haue you Rainoldes No truely Neither euer am likely to doo it But I haue read him that hath read them all I trow And hee being a man worthy with you of credit doth witnesse that I saye true Hart. Who is that Rainoldes Euen Father Robert the publike reader and professor of diuinitie in Rome Who when he discoursed of Christes wordes to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen said that all power of the keyes is therein promised not restrained to part but enlarged to what soeuer Yea that Christ likewise promised the same power to all the Apostles when he spake in like wordes Whatsoeuer ye bind on earth shall be bound in heauen what soeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen For albeit Origen more subtilly then literally doth put a difference betweene the promises because in the one the word heauen is vsed in the other heauens yet the common exposition of S. Ierom S. Hilarie S. Anselme and others vpon this place yea of S. Austin him selfe in his treatise vpon Iohn is that Christ speaketh of the power of the keyes by which the Apostles and their successours do bynd or loose sinners And although it seemeth that here is chiefely meant the power of iurisdiction whereby sinners are excommunicate yet the said Fathers doo vnderstand it of both the powers not onely of iurisdiction but of order too And that may be gathered it seemeth by the text For it is said as generally to the Apostles What things soeuer ye shal bind as it is to Peter What thing soeuer thou shalt bind Hart. Perhaps Father Robert doth bring in these thinges by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrarie Rainoldes No. But he bringeth your opinion in deede by way of an obiection and frameth thereunto an answere and so resolueth to the contrary For thus he goeth forward What Is that giuen then to all the Apostles which was promised to Peter Caietan in his treatise of the Popes authority saith that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of byndyng and loosing are not all one for that to bynd and loose is lesse then to open and shut But this doctrine seemeth to be more subtill then true For it is a thing vnheard of that there are in the Church any other keyes then the keyes of order and of iurisdiction And the sense of those wordes I will giue thee the keyes and whatsoeuer thou shalt bind and loose is plaine that first a certaine power and authoritie is promised afterward the function of it is declared Now the function of these keyes is declared by the wordes to bind and loose not by the wordes to shut and open that we may vnderstand they be metaphoricall and borowed kindes of speeches neither heauen is opened properly but it is said that heauen is opened then with these keyes when men are loosed and dispatched of the difficulties and infirmities which shut them out of heauen and so forth Thus saith your chiefest reader and Iesuit Robert Bellarmin whose iudgement by your leaue I farre esteeme in this point aboue D. Stapletons as more agreeable to the scriptures Hart. You may estéeme it as you li●t But I am not bound to stand to Bellarmines iudgement Rainoldes But you are bound to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers by the Councell of Trent and that vpon your othe as I take it With the which othe I know not how D. Stapleton dispenseth Unlesse the Pope expound it that you must folow them so farre as

as Canus D. Stapleton shew but not in the conclusion that is the principal point which they entend to teach Rainoldes Now you may sée how vainely you st●iue for the Pope For this which is your last hold when all is doone I oue●threw at first by the example of Honorius The conclusion and principal point of whose decrees set forth to teach the Church was the Monothelites heresie Whereby he did not strengthen his brethren in the faith but confirmed their wicked errors against the faith as the Councel pronounced of him Hart. Why doo all the Fathers then apply this priuilege of not failing and of confirming other in faith to the Roman Church and Peters successors in the same Rainoldes They doo not But your Rhemists who report that of them do shamefully misreport them For Austin Chrysostom Prosper and Theophylact doo vnderstand by faith a liuely Christian faith and say that Christ prayed that Peter might continue therein vnto the end Which grace neither they nor any Father saith that all the Popes haue Nay your selfe your Doctors yea Rhemists do confesse the contrarie Hart. Yet the rocke no doubt whereon Christ did promise that he would build his Church and the gates of hell should not preuaile against it is applyed by the Fathers to Peters successors in the church of Rome S. Austin is a witnesse thereof against the Donatistes whom he biddeth number the Priestes that is the Popes euen from the seate of Peter and marke their succession affirming it to be the rocke against which the proude gates of hell preuaile not And S. Ierom writing to Damasus the Pope auoucheth as much I am ioyned saith he in communion to your holinesse that is to Peters chaire I know that the Church is builded vpon that rocke Rainoldes The poore shippe of Christ hath made almost shipwracke vpon this rocke of yours I haue alreadie proued that the word petra which you translate a rocke doth signifie in Christes spéech a stone not a rocke Howbeit rocke or stone it mak●th no difference to the sayings of the Fathers which you alleage concerning it For whether they meant a stone as it is properly or a rocke as it may be they did at least S. Austin through doutfulnesse of the worde they meant not to build the Papacie therby Wherfore if you thinke that the name of stone either hath not so great aduantage for your purpose or doth not yéelde so fully the meaning of the Fathers I am content with out preiudice to that which I haue spokē touching the right sense thereof in Christes spéech to vse your rocke in steede of it Hart. So you must doo if you will deale with my argument For the maiestie of the Church of Rome is much aduanced by the name of the rocke and in my iudgement the Fathers meant no lesse when they applyed the words of Christ to that Sée Rainoldes The Fathers vsed those wordes to aduance the maiestie of the Church of Rome but neither to aduance the church of Rome alone neither to import the Popes supremacie by that maiestie And this may be gathered plainely by S. Cyprian who although he giue a speciall ti●le of honour preeminence to the Church of Rome yet doth he apply that of the rock to the Church in general For he affirmeth that our Lord tooke order for the office of a Bishop and the state of his Church by saying vnto Peter Thou art Peter and on this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it and to thee will I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Thence by course of times and successions there floweth the ordeining of Bishops and the state of the Church that vpon the Bishops the Church should be set and euery action of the Church should be gouerned and guided by the same rulers In the which wordes S. Cyprian you see accounteth all Bishops the rocke of the Church That as by the church built vpon the rocke the whole Church is meant and not the Church of Rome or of Carthage onely so neither the Bishop of Rome nor of Carthage may be represented alone by the rocke and yet as well the Bishop of Carthage as of Rome Hart. Howsoeuer it seemed in S. Cyprians iudgement to belong to all Bishops and so after a sort to the Bishop of Carthage as he applyeth it yet other of the Fathers apply it in speciall to the Bishop of Rome giue it particularly to that Church Sée Rainoldes They doo but in such sort that they might haue done it to any faithfull Church euen to the Church of Carthage as S. Cyprian did For that which is verified of a thing in generall is verified in the speciall As for example the Catholike Church in generall is named the house of God and the spouse of Christ. The Apostle applyeth those titles in special the one to the Hebrewes the other to the Corinthians if they continue faithfull And so what Christ hath said of his whole Church that the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it that is true in euery part of his Church And if he named Peter a rocke in respect of the faith that hee professed on the which he said he would build his Church then al on whom professing the same faith of Christ his Church in part is builded may in a proportion be called rockes also Wherefore sith the Fathers did speake of the Church of Rome when it was holy and of the Roman Bishops when they professed the faith of Peter no maruaile if they said the Church was built on that rocke and the gates of hell did not preuaile against it Howbeit I deny not but that in their spéeches of the Church of Rome they giue more vnto it then they could haue giuen to euery faithfull Church For whereas of the sundry Churches of Christ some were planted by the Apostles them selues as Ierusalem Antioche Corinth Rome some receiued the faith from them which the Apostles planted they had the former sort in greater reputation and called them Apostolike Churches amongst which they counted the Church of Rome a chiefe one as planted by the chiefe Apostles Peter and Paule And because it was famous that Peter had preached the Gospel there whom as the first Apostle it séemeth that the Romans did more reioyce in then in Paule thence it commeth that in speaking of the Church of Rome they mention oftentimes the seat and chaire of Peter For they who did teach were wont to teach fitting as I shewed before by the example of Christ and his wordes of the Scribes and Pharises

not name him And S. Ambrose saith of that promise of Christ I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the rest which followeth that what is said to Peter is said to the Apostles And Ierom saith that the foundation and firmenesse of the church lay on all the Apostles equally and they did all receiue the keyes And Origen saith that Christes promise of building his church of giuing the keyes of binding and loosing made as to Peter onely was common vnto all And Hilarie saith in like sort that through the worthinesse of their faith they obtained the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and the power of binding and loosing in heauen and earth Neither doo I doubt but other of the Fathers haue said as much as these in the expounding of these words But haue they or not this is no path for vs to walke in if we séeke the right way For neither might we hope for an ende of our trauels because of sundrie expositions one contrarie to an other and we should faint for thirst in time of heate and drouth looking for water in the wildernesse as the trauellers of Tema and that is woorst of all sometimes wee should leaue the pure water of truth and swill vp puddle in stéed of it For although the Fathers were men indued of God with excellent gifts and brought no small light to vnderstanding of the scriptures yet learned men in our dayes may giue a right sense of sundrie places thereof which the Fathers saw not yea against the which perhaps they consent Hart. The Councell of Trent condemneth them that say so Rainoldes As learned men as any were at that Councell say it And they doo it too Hart. Who Caluin and Beza Rainoldes Truely I doo iudge no lesse of their learning And if I be of any iudgement I iudge not parcially in it But thinke of thē as you list S. Austin hauing folowed S. Cyprian in expounding a certaine place of Scripture afterward did finde in Tyconius the Donatist an other exposition which thinking to be truer he preferred it before Cyprians Whereby you may sée that although you thought as yll of Caluin and Beza as did S. Austin of the Donatists yet if you had S. Austins minde you would rather follow the sense which they giue sometimes of the scriptures then that which is giuen by auncient godly Fathers Neuerthelesse my minde was not of them when I mentioned learned men For to what purpose Sith I am not ignorant how small account you make of them My minde was of your owne men who say so and doo so Hart. What Against the Councell of Trent UUho bée they Rainoldes First the flower of your Cardinals the Cardinall Caietan beginning to expound the scriptures dooth set it downe for a principle that God hath not tied the exposition of the scriptures vnto the senses of the Fathers UUherefore if he fall vpon a new sense agreeable to the text though it go against the streame of the Fathers he doth aduise the reader not to mislike of it Hart. But the flower of our Bishops Bishop Melchior Canus misliketh the Cardinal for that his rash sentence and reprooueth it as an errour yea as the common sentence of heretikes and schismatikes Rainoldes But the flower of your Doctors D. Payua Andradius rebuketh this your Bishops reproofe as more rash yea defendeth Caietan against it as a slander He teacheth first that the Fathers doo in many places not expound the Scriptures according to the literall sense the onely which hath weight to proue pointes of faith but allegorically and morally We may leaue their allegories and expound them literally He teacheth next that when they seeke the literall senses of the scriptures they doo not alwaies finde them but giue diuers senses one vnlike an other We may forsake their senses all and bring a new vnlike to theirs Moreouer to make the thing euident by examples him selfe expoundeth sundry places otherwise then the Fathers haue declaring that hée doth it vpon sufficient ground Againe he proueth by the sayings of the chiefe of the Fathers that they spake not oracles whē they expounded the Scriptures but might therein be deceiued He sheweth furthermore that the ouersightes of the translatiō which they followed must cause them needes to misse sometimes the right meaning of the holie Ghost Finally he addeth that experience forceth vs to confesse vnlesse we will be vnthankfull to most excellent wittes that verie manie things in Moses and the Prophets are in this our age expounded more exactly through the diligence of learned men then euer they were before Whereupon he concludeth that the holy Ghost the onely and faithfull interpreter of the Scriptures would haue manie things to be knowne to vs which our auncestors knew not and hath wrought by meanes vnknowne to vs knowne to him that the Fathers noted good and godlie mysteries out of verie manie places of the Scriptures whereof the right and naturall sense hath beene found out by the posteritie This is in few words the iudgement of Andradius which he prosecuteth more at large in the defense of Cardinall Caietan against quarellers who did cauill at him because he wrote that it is lawfull to go against the streame of the auncient Fathers in expounding of the Scriptures Hart. I care not for the iudgement of Andradius or Caietan or any other priuate man though you could bring a hundred of them I doo not build my faith on them Rainoldes Although you care not for their iudgement yet you should care for their reasons Of which the light is so great that vnlesse a man haue altogether lost his eyes he can not choose but see the truth and brightnesse of them Neither may you set so litle by their iudgement chiefly the iudgement of Andradius If you doo it may be the price of his contempt will helpe to purchase your confusiō For the Councel of Trent the fairest flower of your garland chiefest piller of your faith is but the consent of a few such as Andradius was or rather none such perhaps Let the Italians witnes it who wondred at his gifts Theyloue not them selues so ill as to woonder at common thinges in straungers A great token of it that the faith of Trent most iustly charged by Kemnicius who tried the Spirit of the Councell and proued it the Spirit of errour found no man to defend it but Andradius to speake of For Tiletan is a trifler not woorthy to be named the same day that he is But let the Authours with their reasons be proofes of no value and grant that if the Fathers all consent in one their exposition must be stood too What if the Fathers dissent in expounding a place of the Scripture as oftentimes they doo Which of their expositions must we follow then Hart. If one expound a thing otherwise then all the rest the rest must be

Sophronius Agatho Damascene Euthymius and others doo name him Dionysius Areopagita when they cite thinges that are in him Rainoldes Gregorie Nazianzen doth prayse a certain autour whom he nameth not It is but one mans ghesse that he meaneth Denys An other saith which is more likely that he meaneth Athanasius Origen is auncient if he had cited Denys Denys must be elder a hundred yeares or two then I doo iudge him by his countenance But that worke of Origen in which you finde him cited can not bee Origens For in it the Manichees are mentioned and Arians the names of which heretiks did rise a good while after Origen was dead So that when this Origen is brought to cléere that Denys a théefe is brought to cléere a théefe The rest whom you alleage Sophronius Agatho Damascene and Euthymius are of later yeares and such as might easily thinke him to be Denys who called him selfe so Many honest men did thinke Perkin Warbeck to be Richard Duke of Yorke King Edward the fourthes sonne as he professed him selfe to bee though in déed he was a counterfeite Hart If you may reiect an autour as counterfeit against so great consent of writers any ancient Father may be refused for a rascall Rainoldes If you may allow a counterfeit as lawfull because that many thinke well of him euerie Perkin Warbeck may be receyued for Duke of Yorke Hart. Nay there was sure proofe that he could not bee the Duke For the Duke was killed with the Prince his brother in the Tower ofLondon by Richard the vsurper ten yeares before men heard of Perkin Rainoldes There is surer proofe that he whose cause you pleade cannot be Dionysius Areopagita Hart. What Such as Erasmus and Valla bring that Ierom and others do not mention him Rainoldes That as light as you make it did moue Cardinall Caietan to dout of the man But the proofe that I meant is such as yours against Perkin to weete that Dionysius Areopagita was dead many yeares before the workes which beare his name could be writen For there is cited in them a saying of Ignatius out of an epistle which he wrote to the Romans as he was going to suffer martyrdome in the time of Traian the Emperour Now Dionysius died in the time of Domitian certaine yeares before And when Ignatius wrote it Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus who succéeded Timothee Your counterfeit alleageth it to Timothee Bishop of Ephesus either after his decease or before it was writen Moreouer the Christians in Dionysius time made their assemblies to praier both in such places and with such simplicitie as the Apostles did and times of persecution suffered But when your counterfeit wrote they had solemne temples like the temple of the Iewes the Chancell seuered with such sanctification from the rest of the Church that it was not lawfull for moonks to enter thereinto much lesse for other lay-men Againe the moonkes also were risen when he wrote and they of credit in the Churches and many ceremonies to hallow them Which in the time of the Apostles when Dionysius liued were not heard of yet for any thing that can be proued by monuments of antiquitie Hart. What not moonkes Why Philo maketh mention of them as Eusebius sheweth And Philo did florish vnder Caius the Emperour euen in the prime of the Apostles Rainoldes That which Philo writeth he writeth not of Christian moonkes but Iewish Essees as him selfe sheweth Eusebius was deceiued And if you thinke that you haue mee at an aduantage in that I do denie Eusebius I shal haue you at the same vnlesse you will deny him of whom you make greater account euen Thomas of Aquine For he saith of the same time of which Philo wrote that there was not then any certaine sort of religious men But to leaue the proofes which touch other matters or stand on mens coniectures or you may haue some colour of exception against I will proue him a counterfeit by the same point for which you alleaged him and that by demonstration out of the holy scriptures and that by the confession of your Rhemists themselues You alleaged him as a witnesse of the assumption of the blessed virgin Him selfe saith that Timothee came with him togither and many of their holy brethren to behold her body The scriptures shew that Paule was not conuerted to Christ till after Christes ascension When he was conuerted he staied three yeares in Damascus and Arabia before he came to Ierusalem Thence he went into the coastes of Syria and Cilicia and the countries there about And foureteene yeares after he came againe to Ierusalem with Barnabas to the Councell From the Councell he went to Derbe and Lystrae where he receiued Timothee And hauing trauailed through Phrygia Galatia Mysia Macedonia he came at last to Athens where he conuerted Denys the Areopagite So that it was seuenteene or eighteene yeares at least after Christs ascension before S. Denys knew Christ. New the blessed virgin died the fifteenth yeare after Christes ascension as your Rhemists put who yet take the largest time ofher life for other stories make it shorter S. Denys therefore could not be one of the brethren who came togither to be present at her death and funerall And all this is graunted and proued by your Rhemists though they thought not ofit For in their table of S. Paule they shew that it was the one and fiftieth yeare of Christ when he conuerted S. Denys the Areopagite and in their tale of the virgin they recken her to be assumpted the eight fourtieth yeare of Christ. Wherefore you do vs great iniurie to say that we deny S. Denys to haue writen those workes because he giueth testimonie for the Catholike faith in most things now cōtrouersed For that which we deny is in respect of the truth because indéede he wrote them not But in respect of his testimonie for the Catholike faith I wish that I might graunt with a safe conscience that hee wrote them He is so plaine against the most of your heresies chiefly the Popes supremacie Hart. Neither is that an heresie nor is he against it nay hée is plaine for it For he saith as your selfe rehearsed out of him that Peter is the chiefe and ancientst toppe of the Apostles Rainoldes But he saith farther that for as much as the scriptures say to Peter Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen therefore he and accordingly to him euery Bishop doth admit the godly and disinherite the godlesse by declaring the sentence and administring the word of God And this doth plucke vp the Popes supremacie by the rootes For your maisters ground it on that charge of binding

Bishop of Antioche nor Rome as vsually that name is taken Yea they distinguish the Bishops and the Apostles therein purposely For Irenaeus saith that the two Apostles namely Peter and Paule when they had founded and taught the Romane Church committed the Bishoply charge therof to Linus And he repeateth often in reckening vp the Bishops as doth Eusebius also that they were such and such in order and number from the Apostles And Rufinus writeth that Linus and Cletus were Bishops while Peter liued that they might haue the care of the Bishoply charge and hee might do the duetie of the Apostleship Which is confirmed farther by Epiphanius Who though hée say that Peter and Paule were both Apostles Bishops in Rome yet hee saith withall that there were other Bishops of Rome while they liued because that the Apostles went often into other countryes to preach Christ the city of Rome might not be without a Bishop As if he should haue said that a Bishops duetie doth bind him to attend the Church whereof the holy Ghost hath made him ouerseer Now though the Apostles Peter and Paule did performe that duetie to the Church of Rome while they abode there yet because it was the charge of their Apostleship to preach to others also therefore they went thence to oth●r coastes and nations and left the Romane charge to the Bishop of Rome And so you may learne by the Fathers thē selues that when they termed any Apostle a Bishop of this or that citie as namely S. Peter of Antioche or Rome they meant it in a generall sort and signification because he did attend that Church for a time and supplyed that roome in preaching of the Gospel which Bishops did after But as the name of Bishop is commonly taken for the ouerseer of a particular church and pastor of a seuerall flocke so Peter was not Bishop of any one citie and therefore not of Rome Hart. Yet the Bishops of Rome did succéede Peter euen by the testimonie of the same autors namely of Irenaeus Eusebius and Epiphanius in the places by you alleaged Rainoldes They did succeede Peter as Bishops an Apostle and they did succéede him in Rome as other Bishops did in other cities Wherefore if the Bishop of Rome by this succession haue right to the supremacie what hath the Bishop of Antioche For he succeeded Peter too Hart. The Bishop of Antioche did succéede Peter while Peter liued yet and had not left his right But the Bishop of Rome succéeded him when he died and thereby was aduanced vnto that supremacie which Peter kept while hee liued Rainoldes Your men were wont to answere that Antioche had first right to the supremacie by the chaire of Peter but Peter did remoue his chaire thence to Rome This was somewhat stale Which your Father Robert smelled belike so he thought it better to say that Peter kept his right while hee liued but when he died the Bishop of Rome was his successour and had it as I trow by legacie A pretie shift if it woulde stand but it lacketh life For Linus Bishop of Rome who succéeded Peter succéeded Peter liuing in the same maner as did the Bishop of Antioche Hart. Not so But Clemens rather did succéede Peter and that after his death For when he perceiued his end to draw néere he tooke Clemens by the hand and said in the hearing of the whole Church which was then assembled Hearken vnto me my brethren and fellow-seruants Because as my Lord maister Iesus Christ who sent me hath told me the day of my death approcheth I ordeine this Clemens to bee your Bishop vnto whom alone I commit the chaire of my preaching and doctrine and I giue to him that power of binding and loosing which Christ gaue to me that whatsoeuer he decreeth of any thing in earth the same shall bee decreed in heauen Rainoldes Who told you this tale Hart. A tale It is recorded in an old monument Rainoldes Whence came that olde monument Hart. From Clemens himselfe who liued in the time of the Apostles and is mentioned by S. Paule Rainoldes But where doth he record it Hart. In his first epistle writen to Iames the brother of the Lord. Rainoldes In déede an olde monument It is so olde that it is rotten A very drunken forgerie wherein it is said that Peter praied Clemens to write after his death this epistle to Iames the brother of the Lord to comfort him and Clemens did so Whereas Iames was dead long before Peter about an eight yeares at least Hart. This is one of the arguments that are brought against it by your Centuries of Meydenburg which I make no account off though you alleage them all For Turrian hath sifted confuted them in his defense of the decretal epistles of the Popes where he bringeth reasons why Clemens might write well to Iames being dead and Peter with him so to do Rainoldes Turrian a Iesuit a couer fitte for such a cuppe Whose defense of those bastards fathered on the ancient Bishops of Rome falsely may be iustly censured with that which Viues saith of your golden legend it is writen by a man of a brazen face a leadē hart For nothing can be spoken so fondly absu●dly which he hath not some reasō for as though he had resolued to be ma● with reason Howbeit sith you are fore-stalled with a preiudice of his defense against the Centuries I will not touch the arguments whereupō they stād Though his answeres to them if they should be laid in the skales togither would be found lighter then vanitie it selfe in all indifferent readers eies His dealing in this one point may giue a tast thereof For though to write letters to a dead man be a thing so senselesse that the epistle therefore is nipped as vnlikely by Cardinall Turrecremata and cast off as counterfeit by Cardinall Cusanus yet Turrian defendeth it as wisely done and omitteth nothing to shew with how good reason Clemens might write letters to Iames being dead yea though hee knewe him to bee dead saue that as a learned man told him pleasantly hee sheweth not by what carier Clemens did send the letters to him But to let both Turrian and the Centuries go the drift of the epistle being to prooue that Peter ordained Clemens his successour disc●editeth it selfe as Cusanus hath also noted by the iudgement of the Fathers S. Austin S. Ierom Optatus and the rest yea by your owne Chronicles and histories ecclesiasticall who all agrée that Linus was Peters successour and so they marre the tale of Clemens Hart. You doo ill to call it a tale and droonken forgerie such reprochefull termes Rainoldes You must beare with my plainenes I call a ●●gge a figge and a spade a spade Hart. Nay it is neither a forgerie nor a tale For the