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B00718 A conference of the Catholike and Protestante doctrine with the expresse words of Holie Scripture. Which is the second parte of the prudentiall balance of religion. : VVherein is clearely shewed, that in more than 260 points of controuersie, Catholicks agree with the Holie Scripture, both in words and sense: and Protestants disagree in both, and depraue both the sayings, words, and sense of Scripture. / Written first in Latin, but now augmented and translated into English.; Collatio doctrinae Catholicorum ac Protestantium cum expressis S. Scripturae verbis. English. 1631 Smith, Richard, 1566-1655. 1631 (1631) STC 22810; ESTC S123294 532,875 801

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22. He made the Apostles onely witnesses or preachers of this benefit of remission of sinnes And 4. Instit c. 11. § 1. For Christ gaue not this power properly to men but to his word whereof he madde men ministers Beza in Confess c. 5. sect 27. We must beleiue that nether They cannot properly binde or loose Pastors nor Doctors can properly binde or loose anie or open the kingdome of heauen to anie For it is proper to God alone to remit or retaine sinnes and indeed so proper as he communicateth this glorie with none at all Zanchius de Eccles c. 9. to 8. Power of forgiuing sinnes is not giuen properly to the Apostles themselues or to others but to their Ministerie or to the Ghospell For they do not properly forgiue sinnes but the Ghospell bringeth remission of sinnes to those that beleiue Daneus Cont. 4. c. 9. Christ gaue power of forgiuing sinnes to his Apostles as to Ministers that do onely declare his benefit towards faithfull men not as such that worke and effect the forgiuenesse of sinnes CONFERENCE OF THE FORESAIED WORDS Scripture expressely saieth that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are giuen to pastours of the Church that what they loose or forgiue on earth is loosed or forgiuen in heauen that the Holie Ghost was giuen them that by vertue of him they might forgiue sinnes The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that God communicateth power of forgiuing sinnes to none at all that it is idolatrie to attribute this power to anie creature that Ministers of the Ghospell do not properly loose any that they forgiue not sinnes but onely declare it that they are onely witnesses declarers of this benefit that vertue of forgiuing sinnes is giuen to the Gospell not to men Which is so plainly against the Holie Scripture as some Protestants confesse it See lib. 2. c. 30. ART II. WHETHER WE MVST CONfesse our sinnes to men SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Iames 5. v. 16. Confesse your sinnes one to an other Sinnes are to be confessed to men Actes 19. v. 18. And manie of them that beleiued came confessing and declaring their deeds CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Sess 14. Can. 6. If anie shall denie that Sacramentall Confession was instituted or is necessarie by Gods law be he accursed PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE French Confession art 14. Auricular Confession was forged Not to be conf●ssed to men in Sath●ns shoppe It is a deuise of men Willet Controu 14. q. 6. p. 736. It is not necessarie to make confession at all to men Confessio Argentinensis c. 20. Nether Christ nor the Apostles would commana it Luther in Postilla Epiphaniae God requireth not this confession to men Serm. de 10. Leprosis tom 7. Confession of sinnes is forbidden Caluin in Refutat Cathalani The lawmade of auricular Law of confession diuelish confession is diuelish It is an intolerable corruption if you search into it from the beginning and foundation Iuel defens Apologie part 2. c. 6. diuis 1. Thus much onely we say That priuat confession to be made vnto the Minister is nether commanded by Christ nor necessarie to saluation THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely commandeth that we confesse our sinnes to men and telleth that the first Christians did confesse their sinnes That same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that it is not necessarie to confesse to men that nether Christ nor his Apostles commanded it that God requireth it not that it is forbidden is a diuelish law and deuise of man and of Sathan ART III. WHETHER GRACE BE GIVEN by Imposition of hands SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. 2. Tim. 1. v. 6. I admonish thee that thou resuscitate the grace Grace giuen by imposition of hands of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands Actes 8. vers 18. And when Simon had seene that by the imposition of the handes of the Apostles the Holie Ghost was giuen he offered c. CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Sess 23. Can. 4. If anie shall say that by holie ordination the Holie Ghost is not giuen be he accursed Et ib. c. 3. saieth that by holie orders grace is giuen PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Caluin in 2. Tim. 1. ver 6. cit The question is whether grace Not giuen by imposition of hands were giuen by the externall signe of imposition of hands To which questiō I answere As often as Ministers were ordered they were commended to God by the praiers of the whole Church and by this means grace was obtained of God for them but not giuen them by vertue of that signe The same Caluin in Actor 8. v. 15. Luke here speaketh not of the common grace of the Spirit wherewith God doth regenerate vs for sonnes to himselfe but of especiall guifts In c. 6. v. 6. Hence we gather that imposition of hands sith it was vsed of the Apostles is a comelie and seemlie rite but yet hath not of it selfe any efficacie or vertue but the force and effect dependeth of God alone Beza Apologia altera cont Sainctem vol. 2. p. 325. In the Ministerie the ceremonie of imposition of hands doth not make a Minister as you verie ignorantly vse to vrge but testifieth to the Church that he is already made And l. quaest respons vol. 3. pag. 347. We must hould that there were neuer any Ministers of the Church made by imposition of hands but who had beene lawfully called to the Ministerie were so put as it were in possession of their function Of the same opinion are they who thinke that Imposition of hands is not necessarie to Ministers as Brentius in Apol. pro Confes Writemberg c. de ordine Herbrandus Disput 11. Beurlinus in Refutat Soti c. 67. Conciliabulum Parisiens An. 1565. artic 7. and much more they who forbidde imposition of hands as Pseudosynodus Dordracensis An. 1574. art 23. in these words The brethren concluded that Imposition of hands is to Imposition of hands forbidden be omitted THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that the grace of God and the Holie Ghost are giuen by Imposition of hands The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that grace is not giuen by imposition of hands that it hath no efficacie or vertue but that the effect is of God alone that by it pastours are not made yea that it is not necessarie to them but to be omitted ART IV. WHETHER HANDS BE TO BE imposed vpon them that haue beene baptized SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Act. 8. v. 16. and 17. For he Holie Ghost was not yet come Hands imposed vpon the baptized vpon anie of them but they were onely baptized in the name of our Lord Iesus Then did they impose their hands vpon them and they receaued the Holie Ghost Act. 19. v. 5. and 6. Hearing these things they were baptized in the name of our Lord Iesus and when Paul had imposed his hands on them the holie Ghost came vpon them CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME
Church there is Sacrifice and offering of a cleane oblation and Sacrifice in iustice The same say Catholiks Protestants expressely say that there is no more Sacrifice in the Church And yet Whitaker Controu 3. quaest 6. pag. 2. 615. writeth thus Without Preisthood there is no Church And Vallada Apologia cont Episcop Luzon c. 26. No man denieth but the celebration of the Eucharist is a true Sacrifice ART XII WHETHER THERE BE AN altar in the Church SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Hebrew● 13. v. 10. We haue an altar whereof they haue no Christians haue an altar power to eate which serue the tabernacle Isaie 19. ver 10. In that day there shal be an altar of our Lord in the middest of the land of Egypte and a title of our Lord to the border thereof CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Sess 24. c. 1. The Apostle Paul writing to the Corinthians when he saieth that they who are polluted with participation of the table of Diuels cannot be made partakers of the Table of our Lord by a table in both places vnderstandeth an altar PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Caluin in 1. Corinth 9. vers 19. There are no altars to They haue nō●●tar sacrifice Beza in Colloq Montisbel p. 350. Paul maketh mention Paul speaketh not of an altar of a table of the Lord and not of an altar Ad Repetit Sanctis c. 4. I confesse there is no altar in the Christian Church And l. Quaest Resp vol. 3. In the Apostolicall writings there is no mention of an altar but onely of a table of the Lord. Peter Martyr in Rom. 11. Altars haue no place in the time of the Ghospel Herein also the Protestants doctrine is well knowne THE CONFERENCE Scripture plainely saieth that we haue an altar The same say Catholiks Protestants plainely say that we haue no altar that Paul maketh no mention of an altar that there is no mention of an altar in the writings of the Apostles ART XIII WHETHER THE PASCHAL lambe was sacrificed SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. Marc. 14. v. 12. And the first day of the Azimes when they Pascal lambe sacrificed sacrificed the Pasche Exod. 12. ver 6. And the whole multitude of the children of Israel shall sacrifice him Pascal lambe at euen CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Sess 24. c. 1. The multitude of the children of Israel did sacrifice the ould Pasche in remembrance of their going out of Egypt PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Perkins in Cathol reform Controu 11. c. 5. The Paschal No sacrifice lambe was a sacrament but no sacrifice The same hath Plessie l. 2. de Missa c. 2. Reineccius to 4. Armaturae c. 19. The holie Bible no where Not sacrificed teacheth that the Paschal lambe was immolated and sacrificed Tilenus in Syntagmate c. 64. We do not graunt that the Paschal lambe was a sacrifice properly called yea Moises expressely denieth that it was a sacrifice Pareus in Colloq Theol. 9. disput 27. The Minor is false That the Paschal lambe was a sacrifice properly called Beza in Marci 14. v. 12. I vsed the word of Killing rather then of Sacrificing that the domesticall bankets of the Pasche might be distinguished from those Sacrifices which in the temple were done of the Preists THE CONFERENCE Scripture expressely saieth that the Paschal lambe was sacrificed Catholiks say the same Protestants expressely say that it was not sacrificed that it was no proper sacrifice that it was a domesticall banket that Moises expressely denieth it to be a Sacrifice Which is so repugnant to Scripture as same Protestants confesse it See lib. 2. c. 30. THE SVMME OF THIS CHAPTER OF the Eucharist Out of all which hath beene rehearsed in this chapter it is cleare how different an Eucharist Protestants haue from that which the holie Scripture proposeth For the Scripture and Catholiks with it teacheth that the holie Eucharist is the true bodie and blood of Christ that it is his testament that Christs flesh is to be eaten that whilest the Eucharist was instituted Christs bodie was giuen and his blood shedde for vs that the chalice was shedde in remission of sinnes that bread is a necessarie matter of the Eucharist that vnleauened bread is a couenient matter and that we must prepare our selues to receaue the Eucharist Moreouer the Scripture teacheth that there is a Sacrifice and altar in the Church and that the Paschal lambe which was a figure of the Eucharist was sacrificed all which Protestants do denie It is cleare also that Protestants do steale from the What Protest steale from the Eucharist Eucharist the trueth of the bodie and blood of Christ the nature of his testament the necessitie of bread the conueniencie of vnleauened bread to make it of and necessitie of our preparation to receaue it They steale also eating and drinking from the flesh and blood of Christ oblation and shedding of them when the Eucharist was instituted And from the Church they steale both Sacrifice and altar and sacrificing frō the Paschal lambe And thus much of the Eucharist Now of the other Sacraments CHAPTER XI OF THE OTHER SACRAMENTS ART I. WHETHER PREISTS CAN forgiue sinnes SCRIPTVRE EXPRESSELY AFFIRMETH. MATHEW 16. v. 19. And I will giue to the the keyes Preists can forgiue sinnes of the kingdome of heauen And whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth it shal be loosed in heauen Math. 16. v. 19. Amen I say vnto you whatsoeuer you shall binde vpō earth shal be bound also in heauen and whatsoeuer you shall loose vpon earth shal be loosed also in heauen Ihon. 20. v. 24. And he saied to them receaue ye the Holie Ghost Whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen them and whose you shall retaine they are retained CATHOLIKS EXPRESSELY AFFIRME Councel of Trent Sess 14. Can. 9. If anie shall say that the Sacramentall absolution of the Preist is not a iudiciall act but a bare ministerie of pronouncing or declaring that sinnes are forgiuen be he accursed PROTESTANTS EXPRESSELY DENIE Perkins Galath 4. tom 2. The Pope challengeth to They cannot himselfe proper and iudiciall power of forgiuing and reteining sinnes Zuinglius in Art 51. to 1. Who attributeth remissiō of sinnes to a creature robbeth God of his glorie and is an idolater In resp ad Luther to 2. f. 430. These words whose sinnes you shall forgiue c. haue not that sense as if Christ in speaking thē would giue his disciples power to forgiue sinnes In Exposit fidei They cannot certifie a man of forgiuenes of his sinnes ib. f. 557. Wherefore all these things seeme friuolous I absoluethee I certifie thee that thy sinnes are forgiuen This is deceit and mere trifles Et in Hebr. 6. to 4. he saieth that Christ spooke the words cited out of Math. 18. by hyperoche or ouerlashing Bullinger in Marci 2. Men do not forgiue sinnes but teach that they are or haue beene forgiuen in Christ by faith Caluin in Ioan. 20. v.
all men because it is saied 1. Tim. 2. v. 6. One Mediator of God and men the man Iesus Christ they limite this to the elect faithfull Beza Epist 28. It is false that Christ is mediator also of the infidels In like sorte Hunnius de Iustif pag. 179. restraineth that saying Hebr. 5. ver 9. He was made to all that obey him cause of eternall saluation to obedience in faith If we proue that vnwritten traditions of faith are to be Touching Traditions beleiued because S. Paul saieth without limitation 2. Thessal 2. ver 15. Stand and hould the traditions which you haue learned whether it be by word or by our epistle they limite this to onely traditions of rites or ceremonies Whitaker Contr. 1. q. 6. cap. 10. Other Protestantes thinke that Paul speaketh of certaine externall matters and rites of no great moment Academia Nemaus Resp ad Tournon pag. 554. By the word Tradition in the Apostles writings is meant ether the application and right handling of doctrine or the appointing of rites and discipline If we proue that Christ committed all his sheepe to S. Touching S. Peter Peter because without anie limitation he saieth to him Ioan. 21. v. 17. Feed my sheepe Whitaker Cont. 1. q. 5. cap. 5. answereth Christ doth not say to Peter Feed all my sheepe but speaketh indefinitely And Beza ib. in vers 15. Must Gods word be thus profaned Surely Christ did not adde All and the difference betwixt vniuersall and indefinite propositions is well knowne As if Protestants did not as well limitate vniuersall propositions as indefinite as appeared in the former chapter Besides Daneus Contr. 3. p. 127. faithfull An indefinite What Protest say of an indefinite proposition proposition is equiualent to an vniuersall And Caluin in 1. Ioan. 3. v. 3. An indefinite speach is as much as an vniu●●sall And 4. Instit c. 17. § 29. It is our parte whatsoeuer is absolutely spoake of Christ so to embrace as without exception that take place with vs which he would say If we proue that the Church is alwaies famous and visible Touching the Church because Isaie c. 2. v. 2. saieth without limitation of time And in the latter dayes the mountaine of the house of our Lord shall be prepared in the top of mountaines and shal be eleuated aboue the litle hilles and all nations shall flow vnto it Et c. 61. ver 9. And they shall know their seed in the Gentils and their budde in the middest of peoples And Miche 4. v. 8. And the remanent of Iacob shall be in the Gentils in the middest of manie peoples as a Lion amōg the beasts of the forest Whitaker Contr. 2. q. 2. c. 2. answereth The Prophets foretell that no kingdome shal be so glorious no cittie so ample no Empire so large as the Church shal be in the times of the Messias But we neuer read that the Lord hath promised that this maiestie and glorie of the Church shal be constant and perpetuall Et Morton in Apolog. part 1. l. 1. c. 13. The league is indeed perpetuall but this so admirable successe is not alwaies so vniuersall but in a manner peculiar to the age of the Apostles If we proue that the Pastors of the Church be alwaies visible because Christ saieth of them Math. 5. v. 15. A cittie cannot be hid situated vpon a mountaine Whitaker loc cit answereth Albeit Christ say that godlie Doctors and Pastors shall not be obscure nor escape the sight of men yet he saieth not that there shal be alwaies such Doctors which may be as visible as mountaines If we proue that the Church is the pillar of all trueth of faith because S. Paul 1. Timoth. 3. ver 15. without anie limitation calleth her the pillar and strength of trueth Whitake Contr. 2. q. 4. c. 2. answereth In this place is meant not simply all trueth but onely necessarie trueth And Vorstius in Antibel p. 143. The Apostle speaketh not of euerie trueth that howsoeuer pertaineth to religion but onely of holesome trueth or which is necessarie to saluation and that conditionally also to wit so long as she shall remayne the true Church of Christ If we proue that the Church is alwaies infallible in faith because without limitation to anie time she is called loc cit The pillar and strength of trueth P. Martyr in locis clas 4. c. 4. § 21. saieth I graunt She is indeed the pillar of trueth but not alwaies but when she relieth vpon the word of God Confessio Heluet. c. 17. She erreth not as long as she relieth vpon the rock Christ and the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Daneus Contr. 4. p. 717. The place of Paul speaketh of the visible Church which on earth is the keeper of heauenlie doctrine so long as she is true Bullinger Dec 4. Serm. 5. The Church erreth not so long as she heareth the voice of her Spouse and Pastor Herbrandus in Compend loc de Eccles She erreth not so long as she houldeth and followeth the word of God Of we proue that the Church is to be heard simply in all things because our Sauiour without anielimitation saieth Math. 18. v. 19. If he will not heare the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnik and Publican Whitaker lib. 1. de Scriptura c. 13. sect 1. answereth The Sonne of God himselfe commanded to heare the voice of the Church but not preaching anie thing but Scripture Herbrand loc cit saieth the Church is to be heard as long as she preacheth heauenlie and incorrupt doctrine Moulins in his Buckler p. 84. limitateth this speach of Christ to quarrels betwixt particular men and not to questions of religion The like saied Feild l. 4. de Eccles c. 4. and others If we proue that the Church in teaching cannot erre because Isaias saieth c. 59. v. 21. This is my couenant with them saieth our Lord My spirit is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not departe out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saieth our Lord from this present for euer Whitaker libr. 1. de Scriptura cap. 11. sect vlt. answereth This promise is not made to the teaching Church but to the whole Church that is to the elect If we proue that the militant Church is perpetuall because the Scripture saieth that Christs kingdome shal be perpetuall Daneus Contr. 4. p. 718. answereth All these places and the like properly pertaine to that Church which God shall gather in heauen not on earth If we proue that the visible Church is alwaies the true Church because she is called 1. Timoth 3. the pillar of trueth Daneus loc cit pag. 721. answereth Let him know that the visible Church then and so long is saied to be the true Church as long as the voice of heauenlie and Euangelicall trueth soundeth in her If we proue that the visible Church cannot