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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16170	A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist.	Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628.	1598 (1598)	STC 3092; ESTC S102284	61,282	90

hauock he made in all the the Churches subiect vnto him in Italy Sicileye and Sardinia and yet for all this Peter drewe not the sworde for hee yet remembred how bitterly his master had once checked him before for fighting Anno Dom. 700. Iustinianus the Emperour saith Diaconus commaunding Constantine the Pope to come vnto him honourably receiued him Constantine and sent him backe whom he beeing prostrated on the ground desired to be an intercessor vnto God for his sinnes renewed all the priuiledges of his Church why then the priuiledges were first giuen by the Emperour and not by God himselfe But that the Emperour fell downe at the Bishops feete it was done in respect not of his greatnesse but of his godlinesse a thing vsually done by great princes vnto ancient Monkes and Hermites renowned for their strict life and rare pietie whereof all Christian histories yeelde vs store of examples and this to be soe doth his request of intercession vnto GOD for his sinnes manifestly shewe But to returne againe to our practise about Anno Domini 690. another Iustinian the Emperour sent Zacharias his Protospatharius or high Constable into Italy for to bring Sergius the Bishop of Rome Sergius vnto him in Irons because he woulde not subscribe vnto a lewde counsell helde by him at Constantinople Sabell and he had done it if that the Emperiall Armie in Italy what for hatred of the Emperour and the good will of the Pope and his cause had not speedily marched to Rome to withstand his apprehension yet this Emperour did afterwarde renewe for Constantine the Bishop a confirmation of all the p●iuiledges of the Sea of Rome This Constantine was the first Bishop of Rome saith Omphrius the newe Chronicler of the Popes Qui in os ausus est resistere which durst resist the Emperours of Constantinople to their faces for he at the importunate petition of the people of Rome who requested it with great outcries decreede that the name of Philippicus the Emperour shoulde not be mentioned at the Aulter nor in anie writing or recordes nor his image set vp in their Churches because he had commaunded the Bishop to consent vnto his Arrianisme and the abolishing of the Images of Saintes But Paulus Diaconus who liued neare that time writeth that statuit populus the people decreede and not the Pope About Anno Domini 7●5 Leo Isauricus the Emperour commaunded Gregory the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the second to destroy all the images of the Saintes the which he refused to doe But although the Emperour did execute many therefore and about that matter banished the patriarch of Constantinople and had sundry times practised the Popes death both couertly and also by open forces causing the Eparch to bring his Armie before the Citie of Rome where he was repelled by the Lombardes yet woulde the Pope by no meanes be wonne to consent that a new Emperour should be chosen in Ital●e the which was now in a good forwardnesse the people hauing slaine Martin the gouernour of the Citie of Rome and his sonne the Lieuetenant of Campania and the Citizens of Rauenna the Eparch and had chosen them almost in euerie Citie newe officers But Gregorie woulde by no meanes consent thereunto but wonne them to be quiet with much a doe But when the Emperour woulde not desist from forcing of his edict for the abolishment of Images vppon the Romanes and the Italians Gregorie the third successor vnto the other helde a Counsell in Italie wherein he excommunicated the Emperour and then the Citizens of Rome and all the teritorie about called by the name of the Duchy of Rome reuolted from the Emperour who was negligent in defending them against the Lombardes that had sweeped him almost out of all Italie from Rome to the Alpes and soe the Pope became prince of the Citie and Duchie of Rome S. Sigon de regno Italiae and subiect vnto no man about the yeare 730. And to establish the state of the Romane principalitie by stopping of titles Zacharias the Pope wonne his Creator Pepine the french king to spoyle Aistulfus the king of the Lombardes of Rauenna by right whereof beeing the siege of the Gotish kingdome and the emperiall exarchate in Italy The Pope cannot depose princes he claimeth tribute of the Romanes and for to bestowe it vppon him and his successors for to take away all quarrell for euer Thus ye see that the Bishoppes of Rome were alwaies subiect vnto the temporall princes of the Citie vntill such time as the reuolting people had created him their prince as all other Bishops in ciuill soueraigne so that the Popes are not exempted of temporall subiection by the institution of GOD but by the election of men as the high priestes became to be soueraignes after the returne of the Iewes from Babylon there beeing ordained to be the temporall prince Then seeing by the ordinance of God the Pope was a subiect and by the creation of men beeing made a soueraigne onely ouer some certaine prouinces I cannot see howe eyther by Gods Law or mans hee can rightly claime anie authoritie to depose Christian princes at his pleasure no more then any other subiecte can his soueraigne or seuerall soueraignes one another to grant eyther of which is soe absurde that I shoulde shewe my selfe to haue verie little witte if I shoulde goe aboute to refute eyther as though any man that had common sense woulde doubte of them For to reason that Sixtus Quintus because hee is secular soueraigne ouer these prouinces which are called the patrimonie of Peter may therefore depose all other Christian princes is as good an argument as if I shoulde saie ELIZABETH is Queene of England therefore she may depose the prince of the patrimonie and all other Christian princes So that by prouing my first proposition that Christ gaue vnto Peter and his successors no soueraignetie secular I haue also conuinced the seconde that they can not depriue Christian princes of their principalities The Pope cannot depose the temporall soueraine Neyther is the Popes claime anie thing aduanced by those two sayinges of Christ vnto Peter which I doe finde alleadged by Gregorie the seuenth when hee first of anie Pope deposed Henry the fourth Emperour as the warrant of his doings Plati The first is feede my sheepe wherein hee did not sayde Gregorie exempt Kinges And the other whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on the earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer thou doest loose in the earth shall be loosed in Heauen For I haue proued before that Christ his kingdome was spirituall and soe a spirituall charge of soules hee committed to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and their successors and noe Empyre ouer the bodies and goods of anie men But Doctor S●u●ders takes greate holde of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Poimaine which the Apostle vseth when Christ bad Peter the second time to feede his sheepe for that

with him the curse pronounced in that place by the Prophet Ieremy The practise of deposing Princes neuer came of charitie Cursed is the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme And because Cardinall Hosius will haue Luthers doctrine tried whether it bee good or bad by the roote that bredde it I pray let vs also see from what roote this practise of deposing of Princes did spring There be two rootes saith Agustine vppon Iohn and out of him Hosius which two husbandmen the holie Ghost and the deuill set in mans hart the one charitie or loue the other inordinate desire Henry of the one commeth all good of the other all ill now whether of these rootes brought forth deposition of Princes I praye let vs consider The first Pope that did it in practise about Anno Domini 108● was Gregory the seuenth against Henry the fourth Emperour because he being exasperated against the Pope for excommunicating of fiue of his chiefe counsellours whome he thought ruled him to much and for commaunding him vppon paine of excommunication to appeare before him at Rome the twesday in second weeke of Lent to purge himselfe of such chrimes as his rebellious subiectes the Saxons had accused him of See Platina and Sigonius had called a counsell in Germany where Gregory was deposed being accused there by Hugh Blancke a Cardinall and many Italian Byshoppes of Necromancy heresy lecherie symony tiranny and I know not what else nor force how truely but most true it is that this was the cause of the Emperours deposing as it doth appeare by the Popes bull wherein wee finde these wordes Because he hath too audaciously and rashly laid hands on the Church the Pope speakes to Peter and because he hath not obeyed my authoritie as becommeth a Christian c. therfore in thy name I do accurse him depose him discharge all men of obedience towardes him and forbid them to obey him that all nations may know that thou art Peter c. Now to depose the Emperour because he had caused him to be deposed was this charitie or inordinate desire of reuenge did any of his predecessors before him the like God saith reuenge is mine I will repey it and S. Paul charitie seeketh not hir owne I pray you tel me what Charity was it towards the Church Christendom rather then he would forsake his sea yea or reuoke his cholericke censure that he would see all Germany and Italy See Sabel almost vtterly destroyed by ciuill warres his fauourers in Germany broken in seauen blody battelles his two Idol Emperours slaine and all the forces of his Italian staffe stay the mightie countesse Mawde vtterly defayted great part of the Citizens of Rome consumed by three yeares seige the Burgo San Pietro twise sacked and defaced all the house of the Corsy the noblest Citizens of Rome and his fastest friendes raced to the grounde the miracle of the world the septisolium taken and deformed his nephew taken prisoner the cyty of Rome twise sette on fire by Suiscardo whom being excommunicated now reconciled he had procured to come to discharge him out of the castle of San. Angelo with two huge wastes remaine yet to be seene at this day in the fayrest part of the Cytie for a perpetuall reproch for the first deposing of Princes yet woulde not his stoute heart stoupe but when at the importunate prayers of the oppressed Romaines hee had graunted to receiue the Emperour into grace vppon his submission he afterward vtterly refused it because the Citizens requested that the Emperour might doe it in his imperiall robes and fled first into the Castle San Angelo and afterward vnto Salerne where he died in voluntarie banishment not daring to abide at Rome for feare of the Citizens who for these manifolde calamities with which he had ouerwhelmed them did deadly hate him What an hard heart had he that would not relent at so many and extreeme mischieues and miseries Did he not blush to remember how the noble Quintus Metellus a pagane being wrongfully forbididden fyre and water by Apulieus the Tribune of the commonaltie to be reuenged on Meitellus for putting him out of the senate for his lewde life chose rather willingly to go into bannishment hauing the stronger faction then that any tumult should be stirred vp in the Citie for him Againe how many of his predecessors did for righteousnes sake suffer banishment imprisonment yea and painfull death when they might haue shrowded and saued themselues we haue alreadie shewed by many examples And also Marcellinus a pagane doth report that Constantius the Emperour coulde hardlie in the dead time of the night carrie Liberius out of the Citie of Rome with great difficulty for the good will of the people that burned in his loue so that it is likelie that if the Bishop would with force haue resisted he woulde haue beene to hot and to heauy for the Emperour to carry away But neyther God nor Deuill had yet reueeled vnto the Bishop of Rome this newe dignitie of Gregories See Platina and Sigon that they could by Apostolicall power binde all men not onely in spirite but also in bodie and all the goods of fortune that they might depose Emperorus for their pride cōtumacy in not obeying of their commaundementes as Gregorie did Henry and giue the Empyre vnto another for his humilitie and obedience as Gregorie did to Rodulph because he had promised to giue his sonnes pledges for assurance that he wolde stand to the Popes arbiterment for they yet knewe not this reason that Gregorie alleadged quite voyde of reason in these wordes Wherefore O Peter and Paule the most holy and chiefe of the Apostles confirme by your authoritie that which I haue spoken that all men may nowe at the length vnderstand that if ye can binde and loose in heauen that then we also can in earth take away and giue Empieres and Kingdomes and whatsoeuer else men haue For if ye can iudge those thinges which doe appertaine to God what is to be thought we may doe in these inferior and prophane thinges And if it belong to you to iudge Angels that raigne ouer proude princes what is it seemely that we doe with their bondmen Therefore let kinges and all princes of the worlde learne by this Emperous example what ye can doe in heauen and how great ye are with God and henceforth feare to contemne the commaundementes of the holy Church Doubtlesse these words now at length may learne and henceforth may feare were very significantly put in by G●●gorie for indeed before this time this doctrine was vnknowen to the world as also that learned Hermite of Rome the Popes Chronicler Omphrius a man inferior to none in the knowledge of the Romane antiquities doth confesse in his booke of Cardinals in these wordes Bishops cardinales did at the first take their place among other Bishoppes according to the anciency of their creation but afterward

appellation can not be made but from an inferiour iudge vnto an higher and also his superiour in that kinde of iurisdiction But much more am I amased at that impudent assertion Cap. tibi domino 63. D. and inserted by Iunius into his armilla aurea in the title of Papa Omnis potestas iurat fidelitatem Papae et obedientiam recognoscens ab eo omne quod hab●t Not yet n spiritu●ll maters Et si aliquando aliquis imperator donabit Ecclesiae vt de Constantine dicitur non fuit donatio sed restitutio Euerye power doth sweate feaulty and obedience vnto the Pope acknowledgeing from him all that he hath And if at any time some Emperour gaue vnto the Church as is reported of Constantine it was no giuing but a restoring For this is so repugnant vnto the holy scriptures and the common opinion of all diuines both ancient and moderne that most of our Catholickes Romains I thinke will be soe farre from defending it that they namely the vnlearned sort will as soone as euer they reade it cry out at me as a most shamlesse lyer for alleaging of soe shamefull a sentence But although as I saide our Catholique Romane will not perhaps affirme that Papae est terra plenitudo eius orbis terrarum●● vniuersi qui habitant in ea the earth is the Popes and the fulnesse thereof the orbe of the earthes and all that dwell therein Yet ● doe nothing doubt but diuers of them doe holde being taught by their schoolemaster Pighius and other that albeit Peter and the Apostles were subiect vnto the Emperors and vnder other heathen states vnder whom they were borne and abode yet alter that the Emperours and Kinges of the earth became Christians and did voluntarily put their necks vnder the yoke of Christ The pops nor bishops haue any secular kingdome they straightway became ipso facto subiect vnto the Pope Christ his Lieuetenant generall in earth according to the prophesie of Esay Cap. 60. the nation and kingdome that will not serue thee Ierusalem shall perish but how truely let vs consider For first that the sense of this saying of the prophet is not such as Pighius supposeth but rather this A place of Esay answered that euerie nation that will not acknowledge Christ for their God Lord and Sauiour and be obedient vnto his precepts and ordinances shall perish I doe thinke is so apparant that it needeth no proofe and spoken onely of his spirituall kingdome on the earth which his father gaue vnto him as Messias as it is written in the second Psalme Thou art my sonne this day did I beget thee aske of mee and I will giue thee the nations for thine inheritance and the boundes of the earth for thy possession and then as also in this place of Esay he commaundeth the kinges to serue him in feare and to accept him for their prince and embrace his discipline and doctrine or else they should perish Now seeing this was a newe kingdome and inheritance giuen him by his father latelie it cannot be vnderstoode of the bodily and earthly kingdome for he as God was possessed of that before and from the beginning according to that saying of Dauid The earth is the Lordes and the fulnesse thereof the orbe of the earth and all that dwell therein But of his newe and newly restored kingdome consisting of beleeuing soules and called the kingdom of heauen whereof hee thus speaketh vnto his Apostles and messengers after his resurrection all power is giuen me in heauen and in earth wherefore goe ye and proclame publish and make knowen vnto nations how my father hath giuen me the Empyre of the whole earth and that those which shal refuse to weare my badge of baptisme and to obserue and keepe my lawes ordinances while they liue on earth shall after death be shut out of heauen blisfull paradise And so haue all both olde and late writers that euer I saw interpreted this place and not of any earthly and seruile subiection as Hierome the nations and kings that will not serue the Church in a good and profitable bondage or seruice that they may be transferred into the Apostolicall dignitie as Haimo shall serue thee by faith and good works As Leo de Castro who interpreteth that by this place of the Gospell He that will beleeue and be baptised shal be saued but he that will not beleeue shal be condemned And as Frererius an other learned Spanish Fryer that those which will not come into and continue in the true Church of Christ shall perich And this to be the true meaning of the Prophet doth the next sentence before plainely conuince Thy gates shall stand open continually day and night shall they not be shut that the strength of the nations or gentiles may be brought vnto thee and the kinges of them led vnto thee for the nation c. Neyther is Pighius his cause any thing better aduanced by an authority of Nazianzene borrowed out of Gratian A place of Nazianzene an●wered but afterward alledged by Saunders and Allen more according to the trueth of the text which they doe set downe in these wordes What will you not be content that I doe speake my minde freely for the lawe of Christ doth subiect you to my power and vnto my barre for we also haue an empyre yea I doe say more a more excellent and perfect then yours vnlesse it be meete that the spirit do submit it selfe to the flesh and that heauenly thinges giue place to earthly For who is so blinde that cannot see that Nazianzene doth in this speach chalenge none other then a spirituall gouernment such as our Bishops haue heere ouer their diocesses and priestes ouer their parishes a charge of soules and therefore because it hath the care and ordering of spirituall and heauenly things he doth affirme it to be more excellent perfect then the Empyre of kings who do rule ouer the bodies and goods of men So that no wordes can more manifestly depriue the Pope and priestes of all earthly empyre and commaund in temporall thinges then these doe which doe affirme them to belong to the ciuill magistrate their office being only occupied in sauing of soules by spirituall meanes and onely in matters spirituall heauenly as preaching praying administration of the sacraments and ecclesiasticall discipline and such like appropriated to priesthoode and that this was his meaning mind it is apparant by the wordes which he vseth before to the Citizens of Nazanse in the which he doth acknowledge himselfe and all the clergie subiect vnto the secular soueraigne saying thus But among other lawes of our doctrine we haue also this most laudable law inacted by the which as bondmen are commanded to obey to be obedient vnto their masters wiues vnto their husbands and the Church vnto Christ disciples and schollers to their schoolemasters and pastors so are we also prescribed to obey

neyther ought I to pay vnto God any becau●e I am his sonne But if any man will contend that hee affirmed that he ought to pay no tribute to the Emperour because he was the sonne of the supreme Emperour God Almightie I will not greatly striue with him but I will in noe wise graunt Felicius that he claimes to be discharged by right of any earthlie Empyre that he possessed as Christ for that by no meanes can be gathered out of the text yea what say you that that famous fryer Dominicus Soto doth holde in learned worke de Iustit Iure that the kingdome of Christ was meere spirituall and writeth that he had proued it at large in his commentaries vppon Mathew Moreouer the matter is so manifest that Pighius himselfe is forced to confesse that Christ his kingdome was onely spirituall and yet he giueth to him whome he woulde haue to be his deputie temporall superioritie ouer all Christian princes in that hee is Christ his Lieuetenant with as greate absurdidie as if a man shoulde denie that the Archbishoppe of Canterburie can heare and determine of felonies and yet holde that his officiall may or depriue the Constable of authoritie to enter forciblie into any mans house otherwise then in cases of treason and felonie and yet graunt it to the Constables deputie or to say that hir Maiestie can not put in or out at hir pleasure anie souldiours into hir towne of Barwicke and yet maintaine that hir Lieuetenaunt of the Towne may doe it And see I pray you how he answereth this obiection out of the Gospell as my father sent me so I sende you Whereas they say that Christ came not to exercise authoritie and empyre ouer Monarches Kinges and princes but as he was sente by the father Christ gaue no temporal power to Bishops nor Pope soe he doth witnesse that the Apostles were sent by him neyther therefore had they authoritie ouer kinges and princes they gather not aright for that word as doth not import a likenes in all points betweene them whih were sent Chist and his Apostles but doth shew the senders or the authoritie of the senders As if he had saide my father sent me but I send you otherwise Christ was sent by his father to redeeme mankind by his death but not so neyther to that end were the Apostles sent by Christ but for this purpose that they shoulde out of all nations gather together his kingdom in the which all men should be made partakers of his benefits vnto the which kingdom yet he himselfe had prescribed lawes and had ordained Peter to be gouernour thereof Yet had Peter no more authority then the rest of the Apostles I deny not but that the sending of Christ did in some pointes surmount the sending of the Apostles but that Christ sent forth his Apostles with a larger commission and power then his father had giuen him that no man I thinke will lightly grant Pighius that knoweth that rule of the Canon Law yea and I doe thinke of all lawes Nemo potest pius iuris conferre in alium quam sibi competere dignoscatur No man can giue more right vnto another then may be knowen is in himselfe the saying of Christ that the scholler is not aboue his schoolemaster nor the bondman aboue his Lord but it is enough for the scholler to be as his master is and the bondman as his Lord. And Iohn 13. Verily verily I say vnto you the seruāt is not greater then his master neither the Apostle nor legate or messenger greater then him that sent him And with what authority he sent them it appeareth by the words that immediatly follow when he had said these wordes he blew vpon them and said vnto them receiue the holy ghost whose sins ye shall remit they are remitted and whose sins ye shall retaine they are retained and can any man call this power an earthly empyre And bycause Pighius saith that Christ had ordained Peter gouernour of his kingdome I pray let vs consider what power he gaue vnto him at the time of his institution or inauguration his wordes be these Mat. 16. I will giue vnto thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt binde vpon the earth shall also be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose vpon the earth shall be also loosed in heauen yee apparantly see that Christ gaue vnto Peter not the keyes of the earthly kingdome or Empire to aduaunce and depose Princes but of the Kingdome of heauen to let in or shutte out from heauen neither had hee a sworde or Scepter giuen him as ensigne of a King but a key a token of a porter So that except the Pope can shewe annother Chapter then that which was giuen to Peter he will want wordes to carrie away a terrene monarch But although Pighius doe grant Christe his kingdome to be spiriuall yet Felisius in his booke vppon the tenne commaundements Felisius obiectiōs of Christs kingdom answered on the Commaundement honour thy father and thy mother will not yeelde thereunto but endeauoureth to proue his secular power and monarchy by his practise in deciding all kinde of causes as of life and death when he badde Peter put vp his sworde of criminall when he willed the woman taken in adultery to be gone and of ciuill when he determined the controuersi betweene the Pharisies the Herodians whether the Iewes ought to pay tribute vnto the Emperours of Rome or noe Doubtlesse if Felisius were not accounted for a great learned man among the Catholickes Romaine I would not vouchsafe to shape these obiections an answeare they are soe friuolous For who seeth not that Christ his commanding of Peter to put vp his sworde doth no more proue that Christ had authoritie of publique Iustice then the bidding of any simple gentleman in the Citty of London that his man put vp his sword which he had drawen in a fray against his enemy will conuince him to be a Iustice of the peace of the same Citty But that Christ saide vnto the woman taken in adultery that she might begonne her way for seeing noe man had condēned hir neyther would he He doth plainly declare that he had noe authoritie to condemne or detaine hir but that she might be gone for any thing he had to say or deale with hir Now for the matter of paying tribute it was not brought before him as a competent Iudge by parties sueing and sued by processe awarded or vppon distresse taken but onely moued vnto him as a skilful Doctor and learned diuine to be determined as a doubt betweene the two sectes of the Pharisies and the Herodians As if a Protestant and Catholicke should priuately come to Doctor Felisius to know his opinion whether the Pope may depose Christian Princes or noe but in very deede they came not to Christ to be resolued of the doubt but onely to entrappe him and to see if