Priesthoode who with his Iron rodde bruseth the pride of Princes that rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters poâ—shard and hath right in his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom al kings shall fall downe and all Nations do him seruice Theo. That the Sonne of God will bruse the pride of those Princes with an Iron rodde which rebell against his Spouse and kingdome in earth like a potters shard and that he hath right both within and without his Church ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vp to buyld and destroy afore whom all kings on earth and Angels in heauen shall fall downe and doe him seruice these thinges are vndoubted with vs and brought in by you but onely for a windlace to make the reader cast his eyes on Christ and his kingdome while you closely conuey the Princes Scepter vnder the Popes feete Accursed bee hee that doeth not confesse the supereminent power which the Sonne of God hath ouer all kingdomes ouer all creatures ouer the States and liues bodies and soules of all men Wil you thence inferre the Pope hath the like In sooth masters you must make hard shift before these reasons will bee good Phi. Christs Priestly prerogatiue passing his owne regall dignitie much more excelling all other humane power of the worlde in most ample and exact termes is coÌ„municated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules and secondarily to the rest of the gouernours of the Church in other manner of clauses than any earthly Princes can shewe for their pretensed spirituall regiment Fie on that secular pride wilfull blind heresie so repugning against Gods expresse ordinaunce and yet is of wicked Sect-masters and flatterers vpholden to the eternall calamitie of themselues and of millions of others Theo. This is stale Rhetorike to come with an outcrie when you should make your conclusion Conclude first and rayle after otherwise you shewe your selues to trust more to the slippernes of your tongues than to the soundnes of your cause Phi. Our illation is euident Christ as a Priest bruseth the pride of Princes with his Iron rodde and hath right ouer all kingdomes to plant and plucke vppe buyld and destroy But Christs Priestly prerogatiue in most ample and exact termes is communicated to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of our soules The chiefe Pastor therefore hath the like right ouer all kingdomes to plant plucke vp buyld and destroy Theo. The power which you mention in your first proposition is attributed to Christ not as a Priest but as a king The wordes of the Psalme are very plaine to that end I haue set my king vpon my holy hill of Sion Aske of mee and I will giue thee the heathen for thine inheritaunce and the endes of the earth for a possession to thee Thou shalt crush them with a scepter of Iron and breake them in pieces like a potters vessell S. Iohn applieth the same place to the royal and not to the Priestly power of Christ. I saw the heauen open and beholde a white horse and hee that sate vpon him was called faithful and true and hee iudgeth and fighteth in righteousnes On his head were many Crownes and out of his mouth went a sharpe sword that with it he should smite the heathen and hee shal rule them with a rod of Iron And hee hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written the King of Kings and Lord of Lordes Howe thinke you His horse his Crowne his robe his traine his sworde his stile described in this place expresse they his Priestly or Princely prerogatiue As a Priest hee sacrificed himselfe on the crosse and had his owne blood shed for the remission of sinnes As a King hee subdueth his enemies and maketh them like dust vnder his feete bee they Princes or others Your Maior is therefore false that to bruse kings with an Iron rod and to breake them in pieces like a potters shard is a priuilege of Christs Priesthoode and not of his Princehoode Your Minor that Christs Priestly prerogatiue is communicated in most ample exact termes to the chiefe Priest and Pastor of the Church hath farre lesse trueth in it than your Maior For al the prerogatiue of Christs Priesthood is not communicated to any other Such an high Priest saith S. Paul it became vs to haue which shoulde be holy vndefiled separated from sinners made higher than the heauens who in the end of the world appeared once to put away sinne by the offering vp of himselfe and after that one sacrifice for sinne is set down for euer at the right hand of God hauing obtained eternal redeÌ„ption for vs and being able perfectly to saue them that come to God by him seeing he euer lyueth to make intercession for them These and many such prerogatiues of his Priesthood I hope you will not empart to the Pope lest wee crie fie on your blasphemous hearts and mouthes which set the man of sinne equall with the sonne of God If you restraine your Minor by confessing that not all but some of the prerogatiues of Christes Priesthoode are communicated to others then your conclusion hath no force both your premisses being meere particulars For though Christ gaue some part of his power honour to his Apostles yet this hee gaue not and therefore his gift to them can doe you no good vnlesse you prooue that hee gaue them this prerogatiue amongst the rest which he bestowed on them Phi. Hee sayd to Peter and his successours Whatsoeuer thou bindest on earth shall be bound in heauen and whatsoeuer thou losest in earth shall bee loosed in heauen Can you require a more ample graunt Theo. Peter and the rest were to bind and lose the sinnes and soules of men by the woord and sacraments not the Scepters and swords of Princes And so Christ himselfe expoundeth his graunt vnto them Whose sinnes soeuer you remit they are remitted vnto them and whose sinnes soeuer yee retaine they are retayned And in this place you leaue out the first part of the graunt which should direct the whole I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdome of heauen not of the kingdomes on earth Bernard though he were but of late yeeres yet was he not afraid to tel Pope Eugenius ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra quoniam propter illa non propter has accepistis claues regni caelorum Your power concerneth sinnes and not possessions because yee receiued the keyes of the kingdome of heauen for those thinges and not for these And so Theophilact Vnderstand the keyes which bind and lose to bee the pardoning or punishing of sinnes And so S. Ambrose The right of the holy Ghost consisteth in bynding and losing of sinnes As also Saint Augustine The keyes Christ gaue to his Church that what she loosed in earth should be
Christ to teach and baptise all nations without exceptioÌ„ but we say none hath at this present nor ought to haue any such power within the Realme and vnlesse you will defende that soules in heauen doe nowe preach the Gospel and minister the Sacramentes we see not how the Apostles haue any actuall function or ecclesiasticall power on earth here or elsewhere These quarrels full of spite and voide of al trueth and common reason doe more than you thinke impaire the credit of your religion and learning but so great is your malice that it shutteth your senses kindleth your cholor whiles you would say somwhat to say you care not what be it neuer so vntrue or vntidy Phi. The Princes soueraignty is directly against the commandement commission giuen to Peter first then to all the Apostles of preaching baptising remitting retaining binding loosing ouer all the world without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein Theo. That coÌ„mandement promise of our Sauior to his Apostles is no way preiudiciall to our doctrine nor beneficial to yours as also the charge which the preachers bishops of England haue ouer their flocks proceedeth neither from Prince nor Pope nor dependeth vpon the wil or word of any earthly creature therfore you do vs the more wrong so confidently to say what you list of vs as if your enuious reports were authentik oracles Phi. You make the Prince supreme gouernor in al spiritual ecclesiasticall thinges causes preaching baptising binding loosing such like be spiritual things causes ergo you make the Princes supreme gouernor euen in these things And here you may see that we iustly charge you with all the former absurdities though to shift theÌ„ vs off you say we do nothing but slander cauil Theo. And here you may see the truth of our speech vniustnes of your charge that as you began so you coÌ„tinue with spite full peâ—â—erting deprauing our words For by GOVERNORS we do not mean moderators perscribers directors inuentors or authors of these things as you misconster vs but rulers magistrates bearing the sworde to permit defende that which Christ himselfe first appointed ordained with lawfull force to disturbe the despisers of his wil testament Now what inconuenience is this if we say that Princes as publike Magistrates may giue freedom protection and assistance to the preaching of the word ministring of the Sacraments right vsing of the keies not fet licence from Rome Is that against Christs coÌ„mandement or commission giuen to Peter the rest or doth that proue all ecclesiasticall power cure of soules to proceed depend of the Princes right Phi. It keepeth the realme from obedience to general Councels which haue bin or shal be gathered in forraine countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any such Councels their Decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councel of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers and letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same Theo. Princes ought to heare obey the truth proposed by priuate persons Preachers much more to reuerence the same declared by a number of faithful godly Bishops meeting in a general councel But the pleasures orders of other princes prelats be their assembly neuer so great the rulers of this realme are not bound to respect vnlesse their consents be first required and obtained Particular councels you may call without vs and as we are not acquainted with them so are we not obstricted to them Generall Councels you can not call without the liking and warning of all Christian Princes and common-wealthes and if you neglect or skippe any they may lawfully refuse and despise that which you shal then and there decree For that which pertaineth to all can not be good without the knowledge and consents of all Phi. To the Councel of Trent you were requested and inuited by messengers froÌ„ the Pope and letters of other great Princes Theo. To your Chapter at Trent we came not for many good and sufficient reasons The Pope tooke vppon him to call that Councell which he had no right to do None might haue voices in the Councel but such as were his creatures and sworne to bee true trustie to his triple crowne The conclusion and resolution of all thinges was euer reserued to him or his Legates This Realme and others were inuited to come but as suppliants to your Synod to stand at your curtesies and to suffer your selues to be iudges in your owne cause and yet you thinke much that wee refused to come Let a christian councell bee agreed on by all their consentes that haue to do with it let both sides haue like interest in the councell Let your Salua semper in omnibus Apostolicae sedis authoritate Forprising in all thinges the Popes power and pleasure be reiected and the Scriptures inspired from God be laid in the middest as the ballance and touchstone of truth which was the wont of former councels Let both partes bee sworne to respect nothing but in the feare of God to examine the faith seeke out the ancient canons of Christs church if we faile to meete you declaime against vs on Gods name as hinderers of peace despisers of general councels Otherwise no duety bindeth vs to resort much lesse to be subiect to your vnlawfull routes voide of al christian authority liberty truth indifferency Phi. Was the Councell of Trent vnlawfully called Theo. Proue it the Popes right to cal generall Councels that none must sit there but his feed sworne men lastly that he must rule raigne as he doth in all assemblies bee iudge against al law reason in his own cause though he be chiefe in resisting the truth oppressing the church then will we grant your conuenticle at TreÌ„t was orderly called But if these things be repugnant to christian equitie the sincere canons of Gods Church whereby the Catholike Councels of former ages were directed as apparently they be then had your Tridentine chapter neither the calling keeping concluding nor meaning of a generall Councel Phi. Who shoulde call Councels if not the Pope Theo. Shew what one generall Councell the Pope called for the space of twelue hundred yeares after Christ and then aske vs who should call them but he if you can not learn that vsurpation is no right and that generall Councels were called by Princes and not by Popes and therefore the Popes power to summon generall Councels if it bee any grewe very lately and is not yet olde enough to bee currant or Catholike Phi. To the Councell of Trent other Princes consented Theo. Certaine Friers were set there to wast day light wearie the wals with declaiming against the Gospell of Christ whiles your holy
loosed in heauen and what she did bind in earth shoulde bee bound in heauen to witte that whosoeuer would not beleeue his sinnes might bee forgiuen in the Church should not haue them forgiuen and whosoeuer would beleeue it and depart from his sinnes by amending his life in the bosome of the same Church shoulde by that faith and conuersion be healed And neuer writer since Christs time did euer extend the power of the keyes vnto any thing saue vnto the forgiuing and retayning of sinnes Phi. No more doe wee this onely we adde that when Princes are bounde in earth for their sinnes they loose that interest which they had in their kingdomes Theo. That position you vndertooke to proue by the holy Scriptures but as yet you be wide you still suppose it and doe not proue it Phi. Now in the newe Testament all Christes sheepe without exception bee they Princes be they poore if they be Christian men are put to Peters feeding gouernement Now the keyes of heauen be deliuered to Christs Vicar in earth to let in to locke out to bind to loose to punish to pardon Now we be coÌ„manded euery one be we kings be we Caesars to obey our Prelats and Pastors and to bee subiect to them as to those that must make accompt to God for our soules wherein what Christian Prince may except himselfe Theo. You role from text to text abusing the woordes and peruerting the sense as you goe and when all is saide you bee euen as neere as you were at first before you began For what if al these places do concerne Princes as well as others wil you thence inferre that princes may be deposed Then these must be your argumentes Princes must bee taught ergo Princes may bee deposed Prieâ—tes may exclude them from the kingdom of heauen ergo likewise from their kingdomes on earth Princes must obey sounde doctrine comming from their Pastours mouthes ergo if they refuse they may be deposed Surely such reasons set not them besides their seates but you rather besides your wittes for what apparance of trueth haue these ridiculous and impious mockeries Feede my sheepe that is depose Princes I will giue thee the keyes of the kingdom of heauen that is I will giue thee the thrones of earthly kinges Be aduised by your leaders and yeeld to their good perswasions for they watch ouer your soules that is obey the Pope when he thrusteth you from your goods landes and liues Had you but one dramme of shame or sense in you you woulde neuer sende vs such sottish and vnsauorie sequeles Phi. They be of your framing we sent them not Theo. We annexe the conclusion which you must and would infer to the places which you alleadge and in so doing we can not abuse you Out of the 21. of S. Iohn what woulde you cite but this charge to Peter feed my sheepe In the 16. of S. Matthew what finde you there but the promise of our Sauiour I wil giue thee the keies of the kingdom of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou bindest or losest in earth shal be bound and losed in heauen All the wordes which the 13. to the Hebrewes hath for your purpose are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yâ— is be perswaded by their words and giue place to their admonitions which watch ouer your soules Nowe what your conclusion is and must be neither can any man doubt nor do your selues dissemble For the fift chapter of your immodest and vntrue defence of English Catholikes as you call them proposeth purposely handleth the depriuation of Princes for heresie and falling from the faith So that helpe the matter how you can with your glozes and phrases these be your antecedeÌ„ts and this is your consequent Phi. Well if Peter must feede Princes why may not Peter depose Princes Theo. Taking their Crownes from them is not preaching the Gospell vnto them which Christ ment by feeding Phi. But Peter may correct them as well as feede them and depriuation is but correction Theo. Any Pastor may reproue them if they withstand the trueth that bindeth them in earth shutteth heauen against them But other correction on the goodes landes or bodies of priuate men preachers may not exercise much lesse intermeddle with the Seates and Scepters of Princes Phi. Be we kinges be we Caesars we are commaunded to obey our Prelates and Pastours and to be subiect to them Theo. Princes and all other christians must be reuerent and obedient to the word and Sacramentes which God hath put in the mouthes and handes of his messengers other subiection to Prelates or Pastors is none due Phi. And if they refuse to be subiect to the word or Sacramentes shall not Pastors punish them though they be Princes Theo. Let them sinke in their sinnes and leaue them to God that is punishment enough Phi. Shal they goe no farther Theo. Externall or corporall meanes by losse of life landes or goodes God hath not allowed any Pastour to compell or punish his sheepe withall Phi. Then may Princes freely despise both the word and the Preacher Theo. If you call that freedome to fall into the handes of the liuing God which S. Paul saith is a fearefull thing Whosoeuer shall not receiue you nor heare your wordes when you depart out of that house or that citie shake off the dust of your feete Truely I say vnto you it shall bee easier for them of the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of iudgement than for that citie Is not this reuenge sufficient for Princes that turne from the truth vnlesse you also must be fingering of their crownes and treadding on their necks Phi. That would terrifie them more than the threatning of helfire Theo. It may be that contenteth your appetites better but God hath reserued the punishment of Princes to himselfe and not assigned it ouer vnto you Howbeit why doe you wander thus from the question You should proue by the worde of God that Princes may be deposed Why then doe you linger and make so many profers before you come to your purpose Phi. Will you haue a plaine proofe out of the new Testament that Princes may be deposed Theo. That is it wee looked for all this while Phi. Pastours haue full authoritie to forbid vs the companie of heretikes blasphemers and idolaters and such like and not so much as to salute them much more not to obey them Theo. Is this your best discretion We must not be companions with idolaters ergo we must not be subiects to Princes Phi. If they be conuicted of heresie or idolatrie Theo. Put you no difference betwixt familiars and subiectes Phi. If we may not be familiar with them much lesse subiect vnder them Theo. Are you not low drawen when you come with such dregges Phi. Iest not at it but answere it Theo. Be earnest in any case It is a very profound and substantiall reason Phi. Substantial or
failing or changing Phi. That we beleeue Theo. How theÌ„ can the manhood of Christ be in many places at one time Or how can it in any place or time be without shape quantitie circumscription and such like proprieties of mans nature Phi. In heauen it hath them Theo. If they can not be changed or altered the manhoode of Christ must haue them not in heauen only but in earth also in euery place where the substance of his bodie is Philand Saue in the Sacrament Theophi If that be the same bodie which was on the Crosse it must haue the same natural proprieties of a body which that had Phi. It hath as many as it may Theo. It must haue as many as it should Phi. Which be they Theo. Proportion of shape distinction of parts extension of quantitie circumscription of place and the very same substance of fleshe which hee tooke of his mother Marie Phi. You name these things which you see bee not in the Sacrament Theophi I name those which the manhood of Christ must haue wheresoeuer it be Phi. Must haue What necessitie is in that Theo. As much as the denying of your faith contradicting of his trueth For these proprieties the body had that hung on the Crosse and without these hee can be no true man Philan. In heauen we tell you he hath them Theophil And in the Sacrament wee tell you â—ee hath them not Ergo the manhoode of Christ is not in the Sacrament Phi. Cannot Christ be where he list without those consequents Theo. His bodie can not Phi. Doe not you nowe deny him to be omnipotent Theophi Doe not you now alleadge his power to frustrate both his will and your faith Philand You hold christ cannot if he would Theo. We say christ would not though he could And since his will is euident by his worde as our common faith auoucheth you doe wickedly to crosse his will with his power and make his might attendant on your follies Dei velle posse est non posse nolle The power of God which we must stand on is his wil and that which he will not that he cannot You must not therefore imagine what you list and then ground vpon the power and strength of GOD it is error and impietie whatsoeuer is repugnant to his trueth and to father your falsehoodes on his almightie power is irreuerent and insolent blasphemie Phi. You doe not so much as confesse that he can doe it and that causeth vs to suspect you doubt of Gods omnipotencie Theo. Because we suffer you not to vnload your absurdities and impieties on Gods power at your pleasures Philand First graunt hee can doe it and of that wee will commune afterward Theo. What shall I graunt Phi. That Christ according to his corporall presence may be in many places at one time if it please him Theo. What then shal become of S. Austen that said Christ could not concerning his corporall presence be at one time in the sunne in the moone and on the crosse And of S. Cyril affirming that Christ could not be conuersant with his Apostles after he once ascended If hee could not bee in three places at one time how could hee bee in moe If not in earth when he was in heauen how both in heauen and earth as you your selues conceiued and woulde haue vs confesse And yet the thing which we withstand is far more impossible than this For the manhoode of Christ by the tenour of the christian faith hath and must haue after his ascension humane shape partes length breadth both extended circumscribed and otherwise to thinke is the wicked and cursed opinion of Eutyches condemned long since by the church of God for a meere impietie You to auoide the burdeÌ„ of that sentence confes these properties are must be permaneÌ„t in the body which our sauiour tooke of the virgin wherein he now sitteth at the right hand of God his father marie the selfesame bodie you defend to bee in the sacrament without shape partes length or breadth either extended or circumscribed which is wee say simplie impossible For shaped not shaped extended not extended circumscribed not circumscribed be plaine contradictions those of one thing at one time are not possible Phi. Is any thing impossible to God Theo. Doth not the Apostle say Negare seipsum non potest God cannot deny himselfe Impossibile est Deum mentiri it is impossible that God should lie S. Austen well noteth Dicitur omnipotens faciendo quod vult non patiendo quod non vult vnde propterea quaedam non potest quia est omnipotens God is said to be omnipotent in doing that he will not in suffering that hee will not And therefore can he not doe some things because he is omnipotent And S. Ambrose likewise Quid ergo ei impossibile Non quod virtuti arduum sed quod naturae eius contrarium What then is impossible to God not that which passeth his power but that which is contrarie to his nature Impossibile istud non infirmitatis sed virtutis maiestatis quia veritas non recipit mendacium nec Dei virtus leuitatis errorem This impossibilitie proceedeth not of infirmitie but of might and maiestie because the trueth of God admitteth not a lie nor the power of God any note of inconstancie So that all changes against his nature or falshoods against his trueth bee vtterly impossible to GOD and that because hee is almighty Phi. That we know Theo. Then this also you must needs know that contradictions be impossible for of theÌ„ if one part be true the other is euer false and that God should be false it is not possible You must therfore either with Eutyches affirme the manhood of christ to be changed from his former shape partes quantitie and circumscription and consequently from his former substance or els against religion and learning reason and sense defend contradictions that is trueth and falshoode to bee possible both at one time which is nothing but to make God a liar in his workes as you be in your wordes for maintaining that error Phi. At diuers times and in 〈…〉 contradictions may bee true Theo. There can be but one part 〈…〉 other at the same instant is ineuitablie false and as for your 〈…〉 the proprieties of christes bodie which wee speake of bee absâ—lute and inherent necessities no relations nor comparisons you may keepe them for some better â—art in this assertion they will doe you no seruice Phi. What if we say the bodie of christ in the Sacrament hath the same proportion of shape extension of partes and circumscription of place which it hath in heauen how can you refell vs Theo. Neuer take the paiâ—es to incur new contradictions a shorter answer will serue you for all and that is say you beleeue you cannot tell what For otherwise men
to keepe them he that might commaund not he that must obey Lotharius not Leo. Can you looke for stronger proofes or plainer wordes that the Prince was the Popes superiour in causes Ecclesiasticall If the Bishop of Rome were a SERVANT to christian Emperours then was he not their ruler If a SVBIECT vnder them then no superiour ouer them If SVPPLIANT to their persons and OBEDIENT to their lawes then no deposer of Princes nor reseruer of their edicts to bee short if they were correctors and iudges of his demainour and doinges then his claime to punish and depriue them of their kingdomes is vsurped and wicked and so Princes hauing no superiour but onely God are consequently supreme gouernours ouer all their subiectes be they laie-men or Clerkes to commaund that which is good and prohibite that which is euill not in ciuill affaires only but in matters also concerning diuine Religion Phi. I confesse places somewhat moue me neither can I vppon the suddaine answere them yet are there many both authorities and reasons that make with vs for the contrarie Theo. Shew me but one Scripture Father or Councell all this while that proueth the Pope to bee the Princes superiour and I will aske no further answere Phi. God saith to Ieremie I haue appointed thee this day ouer nations kingdomes to pull vppe to beate downe to disperse to ouerthrow to build and plant Theo. Was Ieremie euer Pope Phi. I doe not saie hee was Theo. Then that which God spake to Ieremie concludeth nothing for the Pope Phi. If a meane Prophet had that power to plant and remoue kingdomes how much more he that is head of the vniuersal church and iudge ouer the whole earth Theo. Your antecedent is false and your consequent foolish For Ieremie had no such power as you dreame of hee was appointed a Prophet to denounce the wrath of God against nations and Countries not a Prince to displace Rulers and translate kingdomes It is a grosse peruerting of the Scriptures to wrest them to that sense Next your consequent supposeth that the Pope is head of the vniuersall Church and iudge ouer the whole earth which vaine presumption is no good illation you must bring vs better conclusions before they wil be currant Phi. The text is plaine I haue appointed thee ouer nations and kingdomes Theo. I haue appointed thee ouer them not a Prince to subdue them but a Prophet to warne them Phi. How proue you that exposition Theo. The text it selfe saith so Prophetam Gentibus dedite I haue made thee a Prophet ouer nations And the verie next wordes before yours are these Ecce posui verba mea in ore tuo ecce constitui te hodie super gentes super regna c. Behold I haue put my wordes in thy mouth behold I haue appointed thee ouer nations and kingdomes that is a Prophet with my wordes in thy mouth not a magistrate with the materiall sworde in thine hand This we likewise proue by the execution of his office For he prophesied the captiuitie of the Iewes the taking of the king and the citie the destruction of the Aegyptians Philistines Moabites Ammonites Idumeans Persians Damascus Babylon and other kingdoms nations but he neuer deposed king nor altered state ergo his coÌ„mission was to foreshew the ruines ouerthrows decaies changes of kingdoms natioÌ„s common-wealthes not to practise them he was the man that foretolde them he was not he meanes to worke them Theodorete saith of these words I haue appointed thee ouer natioÌ„s kingdoms to pul vp beat down disperse ouerthrow build plant for he prophesied not only the Iewes captiuity but their deliuerance by Cyrus He prophesied also to many other nations al kinds of calamities And likewise Bernard Rusticani sudoris quodam schemate labor spiritualis expressus est Disce sarculo non sceptro tibi opus esse vt facias opus Prophetae By a certaine resemblance of the husbandmaÌ„s paines the spirituall labor of the Preacher is expressed Learne that thou must haue an hooke to weed not a scepter to rule if thou wilt do the worke of a Prophet Nicolaus de Lyra 1300. yeares after Christ could hit the right sense of this place I haue appointed thee to roote vp that is to denouÌ„ce the inhabitaÌ„ts shal be remoued out of the laÌ„d to built plaÌ„t that is to denouÌ„ce that the Iewes shal be builded plaÌ„ted again in their own couÌ„try This I take to be the right meaning of the text if that please you not but you will haue the Prophet himselfe to be the workman then Ieremy was sent not to plant and pul vp Priâ—â—es not to build and beate downe kingdomes but as your own gloze saith to roote vp vices to beate downe heresies to build vp vertues Euery plant saith Hierom vpon those words which the heauenly father hath not planted shal be rooted vp the building which hath not his foundation on the rock but in the sand is vndermined ouerthrown by the word of God And Gregory The Prophet is first willed to destroy after to build first to roote vp after to plant because the foundation of truth is neuer wel laid except the frame of error be first subuerted Yea Many saith HieroÌ„ vnderstand this place of the person of Christ which destroied the kingdom of the diuell Take which of these senses you like best so you bestowe not that on Ieremy which is proper to Christ to be king of kings Lord of lords nor allow him the liberty that God reserueth to himselfe to bear rule ouer the kingdom of men to giue it to whome hee will which no Prophet before Christ no Apostle since Christ no mortall creature euer claimed or vsed but onely the whoore of Babilon that raigneth ouer the kinges of the earth Phi. The nations and kings saith God by Esaie that wil not serue thee shall perish Theo. Whose translation is that Phi. The Septuagintes Theo. But the Hebrew is That nation and kingdom which wil not serue thee shall perish And so doth S. Hierom translate Phi. There is no great difference betwixt them Theo. As much as is betweene the Prince and the people Phi. Both Prince and people must serue the church or else they shall perish Theo. Wee reason not what they must doe but what Esaie saith and hee saith the kingdome must serue the king must nurce the church which is a word of more dignitie than seruice is Thou shalt sucke the breastes of kinges And againe Kinges shall bee thy foster fathers and Queenes thy nurcing mothers but I sticke not on this Phi. You neede not for in plaine wordes it is said a little before Reges eorum ministrabunt tibi Their kings shal serue thee Theo. Their kings shall attend thee or minister vnto thee The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth him that is next about a maÌ„
inter se habuerunt were this notwithstanding ioyned in communion pacem in vniuersa Ecclesia tum seruantes tum non seruantes retinuerunt and both sides kept the band of peace in the Catholike Church For the discrepant obseruation of fasting before Easter he saith the like Alij vnum sibi diem ieiunandum esse putant alij duos alij plures alij quadraginta horas Nihilo minus tamen omnes illi pacem inter se retinuerunt retinemus etiamnuÌ„ dissonantia ieiunij fidei concordiam commendat Some fast one daie some two dayes some more some fourtie houres and yet all these continued in peace among themselues and to this day we continue the same and our difference in fasâ—â—â—g commendeth our concord in faith Socrates hath a whole chapter purposely made to shew what diuersitie there was in the Church of Christ about Lent the Lordes Supper marying baptizing praying fasting and such like Ecclesiasticall obseruances and yet all those places and countries parts of the Catholik Church and communicant one with an other in Christian peace and vnitie Operosum molestum fuerit imò impossibile omnes ecclesiarum quae per ciuitates regiones sunt ritus conscribere It were an hard and laborious thing saith he yea an impossible to write al the different customes and manners of the Churches in euerie citie and countrie Qui eiusdem sunt fidei de ritibus inter se dissentiunt They that are of the same faith differ in their rites So that this is no breach of the Christian and Catholike communion which all the faithfull ought to keepe among themselues with their head the author and finisher of their faith Phi. It openeth the gappe to all kinde of diuisions schismes sectes and disorders Theo. Why so Because your holy father can not marchandize the soules empt the purses of men as he was wont to do What Sectes Schismes disorders or heresies can there arise if we defend it lawfull for Princes to commaÌ„d for truth within their own Realmes Nay rather hath not the subiecting of Princes to the Popes pride wrought the vtter ruine and decaie of the West Church Where Rulers be many it is easie to finde some good and they wil resist that which is euill and reforme that which is amisse where one ruleth al if he fal as he quickly may he draweth the whole Church into the same danger and error with him Phi. But the successour of Peter can not erre and therefore the Church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ praied that it might not faile Theo. Proue that the Pope can not erre and we will graunt not onely this but all your religion besides to be true Phi. What you wil not Theo. The word is spoken accept the condition when you list Till you do we prefer Cyprians iudgement before yours Therefore deare brother saith he writing to Stephanus Bishop of Rome is there a plentifull number of Priestes in the church ioyned togither with the knot of mutuall concorde and bande of peace that if any of our companie make a breach and rent and wast the the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and pitifull Pastours reduce the Lordes sheepe to the flocke againe The number of Rulers in his opinon is no cause of sectes and dissentions but rather a remedie prouided in the Church against disorder and heresie Phi. It maketh all Christian Bishops Priestes and whatsoeuer borne out of the Realme forrainers and vsurpers in all iurisdiction Ecclesiasticall towardes vs that there can be no iurisdiction ouer English-mens soules but proceeding and depending of her soueraigne right therein Theo. Your force is almost spent when you come to these frozen and woodden obiections Wee call those that were borne and liue out of the Realme forrainers What else should wee call them And such as pretend Peters keies to dispose crownes and remoue Princes from their seates ioyning rebellion with remission of sinnes we thinke them vsurpers and abusers of Ecclesiastical iurisdiction A maruelous ouersight in deed We might haue spared you some sharper and quicker termes but by these wee thought good to manifest to the world your iniurious and irreligious drift to be masters of earthly kingdomes by winding and turning Peters keies at your pleasure Phi. Your words exclude Christ his Apostles in as much as they were and be forrainers from hauing any iurisdiction ouer England Theo. It is pitie you can not cauil We striue for iudicial authoritie to depriue Princes you vrge vs with Apostolike power to preach the Gospell and remit sinnes Wee speake of that which is at this present you tell vs what was fifteene hundred yeares since We reason of States in earth you run to Saints in heauen We reiect the Bishop of Rome you wrangle with vs as though wee refused the sonne of God Doth not matter faile you when you flie for helpe to such vnsauory toies Phi. Your oth is so absurdly conceiued that though you ment not to exclude Christ and his Apostles yet in wordes you doe For if No forraine person Prelat State nor Potentate hath nor ought to haue any iurisdiction power superiority preeminence or authority ecclesiasticall or spiritual within this Realme of England surely neither Christ nor his Apostles because they were be forrainers haue or ought to haue any Theo. Not our speaking but your wresting and wrenching of our wordes is far fet most absurd For first where you auouch Christ himself to be a forrainer whoÌ„ we acknowledge to be the right inheritor owner of the whole worlde yea the mighty Lord king of heauen earth in gibing at vs you iest on his birth as if Christ were a forrainer to the Gentiles because he tooke flesh among the Iewes And though you might haue takâ—n some aduantage at his cradle yet you should haue remembred that the Creator is no forrainer to the worke of his handes as likewise the heade is not to the members nor God incarnate to the sonnes of men As for his Apostles in deede whiles they liued on earth they were forrainers but that their spirits now present with God raigning in blisse with Christ bee forrainers is a mad speech of yours no meaning of ours You must send vs word from Rhemes how soules can be French Spanish Scottish or English These with vs be distinctions of couÌ„tries not of souls after death til your new doctrine came wee tooke them to cease With a little helpe I thinke you will make vs some men soules and some women soules you be so skilfull in these conceites Againe might the soules in heauen be called or counted forrainers you must tell vs what ecclesiasticall power authoritie they now exercise on earth We do not affirme that forrainers neuer had any such power in England the Apostles had their commission from
hee did vppon conference had with the best learned that were in his age When it was knowen in Germanie what Pope Iohn had decreed Ludouike sayth Auentine consulted the best Lawyers and skilfullest diuines that were in Italie Germanie or France especially the doctors of both lawes and diuines of Bononia and Paris They all wrote back that the actes and decrees of pope Iohn against the Emperour were repugnant to Christian simplicitie and the heauenly Scriptures The men of note and such as wrote against the Pope for this inordinate presumption were Marsilius Patauinus Iohannes Gandauus Andreas Laudensis Vlricus Haugenor Luitpoldus de Babenburg Dante 's Alligerius Occam Bergomensis Michael Caesenas Phi. What Recken you these The most of them were condemned by the Church of Rome for heretiks Theo. They were condemned by the Pope for speaking truth Marsilius booke is extant intituled The defender of peace What error can you charge him with but this that hee wrote against the insufferable pride and ambition of the Pope Dants error for the which he was condemned your friendes affirme to be this for that in his booke of the Monarchie he saide The Romane Empire had no dependance of the Pope in temporall things but only of God Occam the Minorite pursued that argument so farre that he brought the Popes power and his Prelates touching their tēporal dominiō to nothing These were their errors for y◠which the Church of Rome otherwise called the Pope and his Cardinals condemned these learned and innocent men With as good reason you might haue condemned christ and his Apostles for the same causes S. Paul auoucheth the one There is no power but of God and Christ himselfe commaunded the other Kings of nations beare temporall rule You shall not doe so Phi. They held other errors Theo. Euen such an other For this was against the state and pride of Prelates and that touched their cofers and treasures which indeede were their Goddes The Poore Franciscanes beganne to dispute that it was a signe of more perfection and a neerer resemblance to the life which Christ and his Apostles ledde on earth for clergie men to renounce the world and possesse nothing of their owne rather than to nestle themselues i◠the sweetest and richest seates of christendome and t◠heape vp mammon and wealth in such abundance that they were able not only to beard Princes in their Palaces but also shoulder them in the field The ground of their opinion they tooke from your canon Law and your holy father himselfe in erecting the Rule of Frier Frauncis could confesse as much mary when the Emperour in hatred of the Popes hauftines and greedines cast some fauour to the Franciscanes the Pope to match the Prince gaue forth an edict and made it heresie to say that Christ his Apostles possessed nothing in this world which because the Friers impugned in their schooles and sermons the Pope cōdemned them and all their aiders and abetters whereof Lodouike was one for heretikes This is that other heresie for the which Micheal Cesenas Occam and other Franciscanes and Lodouike the Emperour as a Patrone of theirs were impeached which Platina thinketh was scant aduisedly doone by the Pope and his counsellers Pope Iohn saith he set foorth a Decree wherein he declared them to be rebels to the Church of Rome heretikes which affirmed that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne This decree doth scant accord with the sacred Scripture which testifieth in many places that Christ and his Disciples had nothing of their owne Thus your holy father to spite the prince and to reuenge such as opened their mouthes at his sumpteousnes and furiousnes made it heresie to commend humilitie and pouertie Philand That Christ and his Disciples did possesse nothing neither in priuate nor in common this was their error and not as you report it Theo. In deede it is worth the noting howe finely your Holie Father did circumuent them For where they ment that Christ and his Apostles lefte the worlde to follow their vocation and woulde after possesse nothing superfluous neither in priuate nor common but helde themselues satisfied with apparell and foode such as the goodnesse of GOD by the almes of other or by their owne industrie not slacking their function did prouide for them the Bishope of Rome hauing alreadie gotten a good part of the Empire into his hands and daily deuising newe quarels to get more and besides oppressing al Christian Realmes with intollerable taxes and paiments for the maintaining of his warres and furnishing of his other expences which were both needeles and excessiue and knowing by this vrging of christs and his Apostles pouertie which the friers began euerie where to publish how vnlike he should appeare to S. Peter whose successour hee would seem to be peruerted the wordes and sense of the poore friers as if they had taught that the diete and raiment which Christ and his Apostles vsed had not beene their own but wrongfully taken and vniustly withheld from others that were the right owners and with this shifte made it heresie and blasphemie to say that Christ had nothing of his own where the friers were neuer so madde to defend that Christ and his Apostles had no right nor proprietie to the clothes which they ware and meates which they vsed but they rather detested the monstruous wealth and riote of Monckes and Bishops which pretending to forsake the worlde and followe Christ heaped greater riches and wallowed in oftner pleasures than any secular persons which soare when the wretched friers began to touch they were condemned and burned for heretikes These were the principal grifes against Lodouike which the Pope and the Cardinals could neuer digest I meane his resisting their pride and misliking their wealth for these causes when he offered reconciliation and satisfaction that the Christian world might haue rest from those domesticall warres and miseries the Pope would receiue none but on these conditions that the Prince shoulde confesse him selfe guiltie of al those errors and heresies that were laide to his charge that he should resigne the Empire and not resume it without the Popes leaue that he should put himselfe his Children and his goods into the Popes hands to be done withal as should please the Pope Such was the mildnesse of this Romish Sainct that his hart could not be satisfied but with the vtter destruction of the Emperour and his children which when the Princes and Bishops of Germanie perceiued they signified their generall determination to Lodouicke in these wordes Most gratious Lord and Emperour the Princes electours and other the faithfull of your Empire perusing the articles of your submission which the Pope requireth and resteth on with one consent haue decreed them to be conceiued to the subuersion and ouerthrow of the Empire so that neither you nor they by reason of the
Father and the Sonne to proceede both from the Father and the Sonne For the Sonne saith when the spirit of trueth coÌ„meth which proceedeth from the father Where he teacheth vs the spirit to be his also because himselfe is trueth And that the holy ghost proceedeth likewise from the sonne the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles doeth deliuer vnto vs. For Esay sayth of the sonne Hee shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the spirit of his lippes he shal slea the wicked Of whom the Apostle also sayth Whom the Lord Iesus shall slea with the spirit of his mouth Whome the onely Sonne of God declaring to bee the Spirite of his mouth breathing on his Disciples after his resurrection sayth receiue ye the holy Ghost And Iohn in his Reuelation sayth that out of the mouth of the Lorde Iesu him-selfe there proceeded a sharpe two edged swoorde Hee therefore is the Spirit of his mouth hee is the sword which proceedeth out of his mouth And againe By many testimonies of the diuine Scriptures it is prooued that he is the spirite of the father and the sonne which is properly called in the Trinitie the holy ghost And that he proceedeth from both it is thus proued because the sonne himselfe saith the spirit of trueth proceedeth from the father And when he was risen from death and appeared to his disciples he breathed on them and sayd Receiue ye the holy ghost to shewe that the spirit proceeded from him also And that spirit is the vertue which came from him as we read in the gospel and healed all men What you thinke of these places we know not but sure we are S. Augustine himselfe sayth of these the like Cum per Scripturarum sanctarum testimonia docuissem de vtroque procedere Spiritum sanctum When I had shewed by the testimonies of the Holy scriptures that the holy ghost proceedeth froÌ„ both the father the sonne And if it bee the naturall and distinct proprietie of the Spirite to proceede as it is of the sonne to bee begotten which I winne you will not denie then is it as euident by the Scriptures that the holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the sonne as it is that the sonne was begotten of the father For as the second person in Trinitie was begotten of him whose sonne hee is so the thirde Person proceeded from them whose spirite hee is but hee is the Spirite of them both as the Scriptures expressely witnes Ergo hee proceeded from them both Phi. The doctrine is true but the scripture is not expresse Theo. What meane you by your expresse scripture Phi. Those very woordes He proceedeth from them both are not found in the scriptures Theo. Alas good Sirs is that your quarrell Doe the scriptures I pray you consist in spelling or in vnderstanding Neuer read you what S. Hierom sayth Nec putemus in verbis ScripturaruÌ„ Euangelium esse sed in sensu non in superficie sed in medulla non in sermonum folijs sed in radice rationis Let vs not thinke the Gospell to lie in the words of the scriptures but in the sense not in the rind but in the pith not in the leaues of speech but in the ground of reason truth If by expresse scripture you meane the plaine 〈◊〉 sense of the word of God we haue euident infallible proofes thence for the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father the sonne But if you sticke on the syllables letters which we speake you doe but wrangle with vs as the Arias did with the Nicene fathers Expostulating why the Bishops that met at Nice vsed these words substance consubstaÌ„tial which were nowhere found in the Scriptures our answere to you shal be the same that theirs was to them These words though they be not found in the Scriptures yet haue they the same meaning and sense which the Scriptures containe And that we count to be expresse scripture For otherwise as Hilarie saith Al heretiks speake Scriptures without sense the diuell himself as Hierom noâ—eth hath spoken some things out of the scriptures but that as they both witnes in the very next words The scriptures coÌ„sist not in reading but in vnderstanding And yet I see no cause why this point should be denied to be expresse Scripture for so much as S. Iohn describing the son of God with a sharpe two edged â—word proceeding out of his mouth which is the rod of his mouth wherewith he shal smite the earth the spirit of his lips wherewith hee shall slea the wicked as Esay prophesied hee should and Paul declareth hee would vseth the very same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twise which our Sauior before spake of his father 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the spirit which proceedeth froÌ„ the father So that you were fouly ouerseene when you obiected this point of our christian faith as wanting expresse scripture Phi. If you take not only the words but also the sense â—or scripture we will not greatly gainesay but all points of faith may be deriued out of these words or out of the sense of that which is written The. Deriued as you do pardoÌ„s pilgrimages penaÌ„ces purgatory But we say that al points of faith must be plainly concluded or necessarily collected by that which is writteÌ„ And for our so saying we haue not only the scriptures fathers but also your selues which being so often required vrged to shewe what one point of faith the primatiue church of Christ beleeued wtout the scriptures could neuer shew any Phi. We could shew many if that needed we wer disposed The. I know not what accoÌ„pt you make of it but to our simple conceiuing it is the groundwork of al religioÌ„ crazeth the very heart of your vnwritten verities And if to satisfie the people of God disburden your selues of an errour you be not all this while disposed to doe what you can we must leaue you for curious and daintie men and thinke you can not Phi. Tertullian was of that minde that we are when he willed the christians not to appeale to the scriptures for the triall of their faith His words are Ergo non est ad scripturas prouocandum nec in ijs constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est We must therefore not appeale to the Scriptures nor place the trial of our cause in those writings in which the victorie is either none or not sure Theo. You do both the truth and Tertullian wrong TertulliaÌ„ doth not say that in matters of faith some things should be beleeued wtout the Scriptures no man is flatter against that than Tertullian in this very booke which you bring but he would not haue the heretikes of his time chalenged nor brought to the Scriptures because they receiued not the books as
peoples heartes and voyces Philand Those be your shyftes Theoph. Goe to you shifters is it not enough for you to beguile the simple with emptie soundes shewes and names but you will resist a manifest trueth when you are sure to haue it prooued to your faces Cyprian in his 63. epistle meddleth not with Malachies wordes but if you woulde in deede learne what hee thought or wrate of that prophesie and what hee counted to bee the Sacrifice that Malachie foretolde turne to his instructions giuen to Quirinus against the Iewest he first booke and 16. chapter where he proueth that the old sacrifice should bee abolished and a newe succeede and there you shal find him expound it to bee Sacrificium laudis iustitiae the Sacrifice of praise and righteousnes and that by no worse mans authoritie than Dauids Iustinus I grant alleadgeth the wordes and saith God in that speech doth witnes that all the sacrifices which Christ Iesus appointed to be done in his name at the Eucharist of bread and wine are acceptable to him But what Sacrifices they were which Christ deliuered and prescribed in the Eucharist for his to do the wordes of Iustinus that presently follow do perfectly open Preces quidem gratiarū actiones bonorum perfectas solas esse Deo gratas hostias ego quoque concedo Haec enim sola facienda acceperunt Christiani in aridi humidique sui cibi commemoratione in quo mortis quam per se perpessus◠est Deus Dei filius memoria re colitur That the prayers and thankes of the good are the only perfect sacrifices and pleasant to God I confesse For these onely sacrifices haue the christians receiued to be done in the celebration of that their Eucharistical food liquor in which the memory of the death of the son of God who himselfe was God is renewed You should haue spared the very quoting of this place by mine aduise for if all the Preachers in England would haue laide their heades together in wordes to crosse your actuall corporall sacryficing the flesh of Christ they could not haue done it in quicker and smarter speech Ireneus maketh euen as much for you as Iustinus did for he not onely subuerteth your reall sacrificing of Christ when hee teacheth that the church offereth the creatures of bread and wine in token of her thankefulnesse vnto God but the very wordes of Malachie he expoundeth by S. Iohns authority for the praiers of the Sainctes Benè ait in omni loco incensum offertur nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohan. in Apocalypsi orationes ait esse Sanctorum Et ideo nos quoque offerre vult munus ad altare frequenter sine intermissione Est ergo altare in coelis Illuc enim preces nostrae oblationes nostrae diriguntur Well saith God by Malachie In euery place incense is offered to my name and a pure sacrifice Now incense Iohn in his Apocalypse calleth the prayers of the Sainctes And therefore God will haue vs offer a gift at his altar cōtinually without intermission The altar is in heauen Thither are our praiers and oblations directed Phi. Yet S. Irenens applyeth the wordes of Malachie to the Eucharist Theo. He doth but that sacrifice he saith is the offering vnto God the first fruits of his creatures for a thankesgiuing and with that restriction hee limiteth the word offerimus which he often vseth Offerre igitur oportet Deo primitias eius creaturae Offerimus einon quasi indigenti sed gratias agentes donationi eius sanctificantes creaturam Wee must offer to God but the first fruites of his creatures Wee offer to him not that he wanteth but giuing him thankes for his bountifulnesse and sanctifieng the creature Here is a sacrifice of thanksgiuing for his mercies not Christ but the creatures of bread and wine offered vnto God with prayer and other christian duties which hee nameth as cleane thoughtes faith without hypocrisie firme hope feruent dilection these are the sacrifices of the new Testament of the Lords table not proper to the priest but common to the people nor finished with the hāds but perfourmed with the spirite of man which is the true seruice of the second couenant Phi. You turne and winde the Scriptures as you please but sure the Prophet Malachie directly toucheth our Sacrifice Theo. You dreame so earnestly of it that all the Fathers in Christes church can not pull you from it What Cyprian Iustine and Ireneus write of this prophesie you do or may vnderstand by that which is saide if the number bee too smal you may haue moe to assure you that the Prophet neuer thought of your reall and corporall sacrificing of Christes fleshe to God the Father by the Priestes fingers Tertullian alleadging the very wordes Et in omni loco offerentur munda Sacrificia nomini meo In euery place shall there bee brought cleane Sacrifices vnto my name addeth Indubitatè quod in omni terra exire habebat praedicatio Apostolorum Vndoubtedly the Prophet Malachie meaneth that the preaching of the Apostles was to bee spredde ouer all the earth Against Marcion hee sayeth Et in omni loco Sacrificium nomine meo offeretur sacrificium mundum scilicet simplex oratio de conscientia pura In euerie place shall there bee offered in my name a sacrifice and that a cleane sacrifice to witte sincere praier from a pure conscience So Eusebius Where Malachie doeth say that incense and sacrifice are offered to God in euerie place what else meaneth hee but that it is done in euery Countrie and in all Nations which in deede were to offer to the most high God the incense of prayer and sacrifice which is called cleane no longer by blood but by godly workes Nowe what those workes were Cyrill will teach you Wee vse sacrifices but of the spirite and minde For wee haue a precept that leauing the grosse seruice of the Iewes wee shoulde yeelde a subtile fine and spirituall sacrifice And therefore wee offer vnto God for a sweete smell all sortes of vertues faith hope charitie iustice continence obedience mildnesse perpetuall prayses and other such vertues So Hierom. Incense is offered to the name of the Lord in euerie place and a cleane sacrifice not in the oblations of the olde Testament but in the holynesse of Euangelicall puritie of which incense wee reade in other places as when Dauid sayeth Let my praier bee directed as incense in thy sight and the lifting vppe of mine handes as an Euening sacrifice So Augustine Heare yee Donatistes the Lorde saying thus by his Prophet In euerie place shall incense bee yeelded to my name and a pure sacrifice With this sacrifice of your brethren which God most respecteth you shew your selues by your cauilling to bee grieued and if at any time you heare the name of the Lord to bee praysed from East to West which