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A13748 The examinacion of Master William Thorpe preste accused of heresye before Thomas Arundell, Archebishop of Ca[n]terbury, the yere of ower Lord .MCCCC. and seuen. The examinacion of the honorable knight syr Jhon Oldcastell Lorde Cobham, burnt bi the said Archebisshop, in the fyrste yere of Kynge Henry the Fyfth. Thorpe, William, d. 1407?; Tyndale, William, attributed name.; Constantine, George, ca. 1501-1559, attributed name.; Oldcastle, John, Sir, d. 1417. Examinacion of the honorable knight syr Jhon Oldcastell. aut 1530 (1530) STC 24045; ESTC S104932 68,800 141

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their tēporall goodes be they tythes or offeringes to priestis that doo not their office among them iustely ar parteners of euery synne of those priestis because that they susteyne those priestis foly in their synne with their tēporall goods Yf thes thinges be well considerid what wonder is it than sir if the paroshenis grudge ageinst thes dispensatours Than the Archebisshop said to me Thou y● sholdeist be iudged and reulyd by holy chirche presumptuously thou demest holy chirche to haue erryd in the ordinaunce of tyhes ād other dewties to be payd to pristis Yt shall be long or thou thryue Losell that thou despicest thy gostely mother How darist thou speake this Losell among the people Ar not tythes geuyn to priestis for to lyue by And I said Sir seynt Paul saith that tythes wer gyuen in the olde lawe toleuytes ād to priestis that came of the lynage of Leui But our priest he saith came not of the lynage of Leui but of the lynage of Iuda to which Iuda no tythes w●re promised to be geuyn And therfore Paul saith syns the priesthode is chaūged fro the generacion of Leui to the generacion of Iuda it is necessarie that chaungyng also be made of the lawe So that priestis lyue now without tythes and other dewties that they now claime folowing Christe and his apostles in wilfull pouerte as they haue gyuen them example For syns Christe lyued all the tyme of his preaching by pure almose of the people and by example of hym his apostles lyued in the same wyse or els by the trauell of their hādis as it is said aboue Euery prieste whose priesthode Christe approuyth knowith well and confessith in worde in werke that a disciple owith not to be aboue his master but it sufficeth to a disciple to be as his master symple and pure meke and pacient by exāple specially of his master Christe euery prieste sholde reule hym in all his lyuyng and so after his connyng power a prieste sholde besy hym to enfourme to reule whome so euer he myght charitably And the Archebisshop said to me with a great spirite Goddis curse haue thou and myne for this teaching for thou woldist hereby make the olde law more fre ād perfite than the new law For thou saist that it is lefull to leuites and to priestis to take tythes in the olde lawe and so to enioye their priuelegies but to vs priestis in the new lawe thou saist it is not lefull to take tyhes And thus thou geuist leuytes of the olde lawe more fredome than to priestis of the new lawe And I said Sir I meruell that ye vnderstonde this playne texte of Paul thus Ye wote well that the leuites and priestes in the olde lawe that toke tythes wer not so fre nor so perfite as Christe and his apostles that tooke no tythes And sir there is a doctour I thinke that it is seynt Ierome that saith thus The priestis that chalenge now in the new lawe tythes say in effecte that Christe is not becomen man nor that he hath yet suffered dethe for mannis loue Wherfore this doctour saith thys sentence Syns tythes wer the hyres and wagis limyted to leuites and to priestes of the olde lawe for bearing about of the tabernacle and for fleayng and fleayng of beastis and for burning of sacrifice ād for keping of the temple and for tromping of battell before the oste of Israel and other diuerse obseruauncis that perteinyd to their office those priestis that will chalenge or take tythes denye that Christe is comen in flesshe and doo the priestis office of the olde lawe for whome tythes wer graūted for els as this doctour saith priestis take now tythes wrongfully And the Archebisshop said to his clerkes Herde ye euer losell speake thus Certeyn this is the learnyng of them all that wher so euer they come and they may be suffered they enforce them to expugne the fredome of holy chirche And I said Sir why call you the takyng of tythes and of soche other dewties that priestes chalenge now wrongfully the fredome of holy chirche Syns nother Christe nor his apostles chalengid nor tooke soche dewties Herefore thes takyngis of priestis now ar not callyd iustely the fredome of holy chirche but all soche geuyng and takyng ought to be called and holden the sclaunderous couetousnesse of men of the holy chirche And the Archebisshop said to me Why Losell wilt not thou and other that ar confedered with the seake out of holy scripture and of the sentēce of doctours all sharpe authorites agēst lordis and knyghtis and squyeris and ageinst other seculer men as thou doeste ageynst priestes And I said Sir what so euer men or womē lordis or ladies or ony other that ar present in our preaching specially or in our cōmunyng after our connyng we tell out to thē their office ād their charges but sir syns Chrisostome saith that priestis ar the stomake of the people it is nedefull in preaching and also in communyng to be moste besy aboute this priesthode syns by the viciousnes of priestis both lordis and comons ar moste synfully infected and ledde into the worste And because that the couetousnes of priestis pride and the boste that they haue make of their dignite and power destroieth not onely the vertues of priesthode in priestis them selfe but also ouer this it stierith god to take greate vēgeaunce both vpon lordis and vpon comons which suffer thes priestes charitably And the Archebisshop said to me Thou iudgest euery prieste proude that will not go arayed as thou doste By god I deme hym to be more meke that gothe euery day in a scarlet gowne than thou in the threde bare blew gowne Wherby knowest thou a proude man And I said Sir a proude prieste may be knowen when he denyeth to folow Christe and his apostles in wilfull pouerte and other vertues and couerith worldly worship and taketh it gladly and gatherith to gither with pletyng manasyng or with flattering or with simony ony worldly goodis and moste if a prieste besy hym not chefely in hymself and after in all other men and women after his connyng ād power to withstond synne And the Archebisshop said to me Though thou knewest a prieste to haue all thes vices ād though thou sawest a prieste louely lye now by a woman knowing hir fleschly woldest thou herfore deme this prieste dampnable I say to the that in the tournyng about of thy hande soche a synner may be verily repented And I said Sir I will not dāpne any mā for any synne that I know done or may be done so that the synner leuyth his synne But by authorite of holy scripture he that synneth thus openly as ye shewe here is dāpnable for doyng of soche a synne moste specially a prieste that sholde be example to all other for to hate ād flie synne and in how short tyme that euer ye say that soche a synner may be
for yf it were writen there I wolde right gladly be learned where But shortely this man wolde not go from me to aske this question of a nother body but required me there as I wolde answere before god if in this case the cursing of priestes wer laufull and approued of god And shortely herewith came to my mynde the learnyng of seynt Peter teachīg priestes specially to halow the lord christ in their hartes beinge euermore redye as ferre as in thē is to answere thorowe faith hope to thē that aske of thē a reasō And this lesson Peter teacheth mē to vse with a meke spyrite with dreade of the lorde Wherfore syr I said to this man in this wise In the olde lawe which endyd not fully till the tyme that christe rose vp ageyn fro dethe to lyfe god commaunded tythes to be gyuē to the leuites for the great besynesse dayly trauell that pertayned to their office But priestes because their trauell was mekyll more easy and light thā was the office of the leuites god ordeyned that priestes sholde take for their lifelode to do their office the tenth parte of tho tythes that wer geuē to the leuites But naw I said in the newe lawe nother Christe nor ony of hys apostles toke tythes of the people nor cōmaunded the people to pay tythes nother to priestes nor to deacons But Christe taught the people to do almesse that is werkes of mercy to poore nedy mē of surpluse that is superfluouse of their temporall goodes which they hadde more thā them nedid reasonably to their necessary lyuelode And thus I said not of tythes but of pure almesse of the people Christe lyued and his apostles whan they were so besyre in teachynge off the worde of god to the people that they myght not trauell other wyse for to gett their lyuelode But after Christes ascensyon and whan the apostles had receyued the holy goste they traueled with theire handes for to get theire lyuelode whan that they myght thus doo for besye preachynge Therfore by example of hymselfe seynt Paule teacheth all the priestes of Christe for to trauell with theire hande whan for besye teachyng of the people they myght thus do And thus all these priestes whose priestehode god accepteth nowe or will accepte or dyd in the apostles tyme and after their discease will do to the worldes ende But as Cisterciensis telleth in the thousande yeare of oure lorde Iesu Christe two hundreth and a leuenth yere one pope the tenth Gregory ordened new tythes fyrst to be gyuen to priestes nowe in the newe lawe But seynt Paule in his tyme whose trace or example all priestes of god enforce them to folowe seyng the couetousnesse that was amonge the people desyrynge to destroye this foule synne thorow the grace of god and true vertuouse lyuynge and example of hymselfe wrette and taucht all priestes for to folowe him as he folowed Christe paciently wyllyngly and gladly in hye pouerte Wherfore Paule saithe thus The lorde hathe ordened that they that preache the gospell shall lyue of the gospell But we saith Paul that couet besy vs to be feithfull folowers of Christ vse not this power For lo as Paule witnesseth afterwarde whan he was full pore and nedy preaching among the people he was not chargeous vnto them but with his handes he traueled not onely to get his owne lyuynge but also the lyuyng of other poore nedy creatures And syns the people was neuer so couetouse nor so auarouse I gesse as thei ar now it were good counsell that all priestes toke good hede to this heuenly learnyng of Paul folowimg him here in wilfull pouerte nothinge charging the people for their bodely lyuelode But because the many priestes do contrary Paule in this forsayde doctryne Paul biddeth the people take hede to those priystes that folow him as he had geuē them example As if Paul wolde say thus to the people Accepte ye none other priestes than thei that lyue after the fourme that I haue tauchte you For certeyn in what soeuer dignite or ordre that ony prieste is in yf he conforme him not to folowe Christe and his apostles in wilfull pouerte and in other heuenly vertues and specially in true preachynge of goddes worde though soche a one be named a prieste yet he is no more but a prieste in name for the worke of a verye prieste soch a one wanteth This sentence approueth Augusttne Gregory Chrisostome Lincon̄ playnly And the archebishop said to me Thinkest thou this holsome learninge for to sowe openly or yet priuely among the people Certeyn this doctryne cōtrarieth playnly the ordinaunce of holy fathers which haue ordened graūted licenced priestes to be in diuerse degres to lyue by tythes offringes of the people by other deuties And I said Sir if priestes wer now in mesurable mesure numbre lyued vertuously taucht besyly truely the worde of god by example of Christ and of his apostles withouten tythes offerynges and other dewties that priestes nowe chalenge take y● people wolde gyue thē frely sufficient lyuelode And a clerke said to me How wilt thou make this good that the people will gyue frely to priestes their lyuelode syns that now by the lawe euery prieste cā scarcely cōstrayne the people to gyue thē their lyuelode And I said Sir it is now no wonder though the people grudge to gyue pristes the lyuelode that they aske for mekill people knowe nowe how that priestes shulde lyue ād how that they lyue contrary to Christe and to his apostles And therfore the people is full heuy to paye as they do their temporall goodes to persones ād to other vicares and priestes whiche sholde be feithfull dispensatours of the pareshes goodes taking to themselfes nomore but a scarce lyuīg of tythes nor of offrynges by the ordinaunce of the comon lawe For what soeuer priestes take of the people be it tythe or offering or ony other deutie or seruyce the priestes ought not to haue thereof nomore but a bare lyuyng ād to departe the residew to the poore men women specially of the parishe of whome they take this temporall lyuynge But the most dele of priestes nowe wasteth their pareshes goodes ād spendeth thē at their owne will after the worlde in theire veyne lustes so that in fewe places poore mē haue dewly as they sholde haue their owne sustenaunce nother of tythes nor of offerynges nor of other large wages foundacions that priestes take of the people in diuerse maners aboue it that they nede for nedefull sustenaunce of meate and clothinge But the poore nedy people ar forsaken and lefte of priestis to be susteinyd of the paroshenis as if the priestis toke nothing of the paroshenis for to helpe the poore people with And thus syr into ouer greate chargis of the paroshenis they pay their tēporall goods twise wher ones myght suffice if priestis wer trew dispensatours Also sir the paroshenis that pay
loue for to please him in true faithfull keping of his commaundementes And agene they that are said to be in the faithe of holy chirche in Shrewisbery and in other places by open euidence of their proude enuiouse maliciouse couetouse lecherouse and other foule wordes workes nother knowe nor haue will to knowe nor to occupye their wittes truely and effectuously in the righte faith of holy churche Wherfore all these nor none that folowe their maners shall ony tyme come verely in the faithe of holy churche excepte they enforce them more truelye to come in the waye whiche nowe they despyse For these men and women that are nowe called feyth full and holden iuste nother knowe nor will exercyse them selfe to knowe of faythfulnesse one commaundement of god And thus full many men and women now and specially mē that are named to be principall lymmes of holy church stiere god to greate wrathe and deserue his curse for that they call or holde them iuste men whiche are full vniuste as their vicyouse wordes their greate customable sweringe and their slaūderouse and shamefull workes shew openly and witnesse And herefor soche viciouse men and vniuste in theire owne confusyon call them vniuste men and women which after their power and conning besy them self to lyue iustely after the commaundement of god And where syr ye say that I haue distrobled the cominalte of Shrewisbery and many other men women with my teaching yf it thus be it is not to be wondred of wise men syns all the cominalte of the cyte of Ierusalem was destrobled off christes awne person that was very god mā and most prudent precher that euer was or shal be And also all the Synagoge of Nazareth was moued ageynste Christe and so fulfylled with ire towardes him for his preachinge that the men of the Synagoge rose vp and cast ch●iste out of their cyte and ledde him vppe to the toppe of a moūtayne for to caste him doune ther hedelinge Also accordingly hereto the lord witnessyth by Moses that he shall put dissension betwixt his people ād the people that contrarieth and persewith his people Who syr is he that shall preache the treuthe of goddes worde to the vnfeithfull people and shall let the sothe fastenesse of the gospell the prophecye of god almightye to be fulfilled And the archebishop said to me It foloweth of thes thy wordes that thou soche other thīkest that ye do right well for to preach teach as ye do without authorite of any bishope For ye presume that the lorde hath chosen you only for to preache as faithfull disciples and speciall folowars of Christe And I said Syr by authorite of gods lawe also of seintes doctours I am learned to deme that it is euery priestes office and deutie for to preache besily frely and truely the worde of god For no doute euery priest shold purpose fyrst in his soule couett to take the order of priesthode chefly for to make knowē to the people the worde of god after his conning power approuyng his wordes euer to be true by his vertuous workes and for this entent we suppose the bishopes and other prelates of holy chirch shold chefely take vse ther prelacie And for the same cause bishopes sholde gyue to priestes their orders For bisshopes sholde accept no mā to priesthode except that he had good will full purpose wer wel disposed well learned to preache Wherfore syr by the bidding of Christ by example of his moste holy lyuyng also by the witnessinge of his holy apostles prophetes we are bounde vnder full great peyne to exercyse vs after our cōning and power as euery prieste is like wise charged of god to fulfyll dewly the office of priesthode We presume not here of oure selfes for to be estemed nother in oure owne reputaciō nor in none other mannes feithfull disciples ād speciall folowers of Christe but syr as I said to you before we deme this by authorite chefely of goddes worde that it is the chefe deutie of euery prieste to besy them feithfully to make the law of god knowen to his people and so to comune the cōmaundement of god charitably howe that we may beste where whan to whome y● euer we may is our very deutie And for the will besynesse that we owe of dewe dette to do iustely our office thorow the steyring ād speciall helpe as we truste of god hoping stedfastely in his mercye we desyre to be the feithfull disciples of christe and we praye this gracious lorde for his holy name that he make vs able so to please hym with deuoute prayers and charitable priestly workes that we may obteyne of him to folowe him thankfully And the Archebishop said to me Lewde losell wherto makist thou soche veyne reasones to me Asketh not seynt Paul how sholde priestes preche except they be sent But I sent the neuer to preche For thy venemous doctryne is so knowen thorow out Englōd that no bishop will admitt the for to preache by witnessyng of their letters Why than lewde ydiote willest thou presume to preach syns thou art not sent nor licensed of thy souereyn to preach Saith not seynt Paule that subictes owe to obeye their souereyns ād not only good and vertuous but also tyrauntis that are vicious And I said to the archebishop Syr as touching your letter of licēce or other bishopes whiche ye say we sholde haue to witnesse that we wer able to be sent for to preache we knowe well that nother you syr nor ony other bishop of this lande will graunte to vs ony soche letters of licence but we sholde oblige vs to you to other bisshopes by vnlefull othes for to passe not the bōdes termes which ye syr or other bishopes wil lymyt to vs. And sins ī this matter your termis be some to large some to streite we dare not oblige vs thus to be boūdē to you for to kepe the termes which you will lymitt to vs as ye do to friers soch other prechers therfor though we haue not your letter sir nor letters of other bishops writē with ynke vpō perchemēt we dare not here for leaue the office of preching to which preching all priestes after there cōnyng power are bounde by diuerse testimonies of gods lawe off great doctours without ony mēciō makīg of bishopes letters For as mekell as we haue takē vpō vs the office of priesthode though we are vnworthy thereto we come purpose to fulfyll it with the helpe of god by authorite of his owne lawe and by witnesse of great doctours seintes accordingly hereto trusting stedfastly in the mercye of god For that he commaundeth vs to do the office of priesthode he will be our sufficient letters witnesse if we by example of his holy lyuing teaching specially occupye vs feithfully to do our office iustly ye the people to whome we preache be they