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A94218 An anti-diatribe: or The apologie of some ministers and godly people, asserting the lawfulnesse of their administring the Lords Supper in a select company proving also the necessity of examination in our congregations, in order to a more holy church-fellowship. Wherein a paper is answered, bearing this title, viz, A diatribe concerning the administration of the Eucharist and examination thereunto precedent. Together, with a vindication of the Lords Supper from its manifest abuse by a general admission; being an answer to Mr. Humphrey. By Humphrey Saunders Minister of Hollesworthy in Devon. Saunders, Humphrey.; Manton, Thomas, 1620-1677. 1655 (1655) Wing S746A; ESTC R229794 95,185 240

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Lord. But they that cannot distinguish between pride and power between pride and discipline need somewhat to clear their eye-sight When the Apostle condemnes Lordship over the flock he takes not away government Heb. 13. ver 7.17.24 for that were to contradict Puul in three places in one Chapter the Pastor then hath rule but it must not be tyrannical 2. Lording is an overthrowing of the priviledges of the Saints and godly but we study to preserve their priviledges and to raise a fence that they may not be troden down by wilde beasts Esay 5.2 but preserved in their use from evident prophanation We gather out the stones of Gods vineyard Besides all that is done is by voluntary agreement our rules extend but to them that freely submit to them We excommunicate none nor meddle with other mens wayes Indeed we discover by our actings what we would draw our Congregations unto and that while they refuse to follow us therein our union with them in that Ordinance cannot be comfortable And this we do as being bound in conscience to use all good means to redresse abuses and to promote the National Engagement of Reformation Here now are essayes of rule and order but no imperiousnesse or usurpation When Moses stood for the Priests Office against the pride of Corah and his complices they tell him that the Priests took too much upon them Truth is only gracious spirits are fit to be governed in a Christian or Church-way Gods yoke is grievous to the sons of Belial Hinc illae lachrymae Is any thing put upon men but the light burthen of Christs lawes Is it intolerable to come under the duties of godlinesse is there cause given to men to crie out of Lording and blasting their reputation when so facile a thing is required as the discovery of their knowledge and clearing of their practices from known wickednesse Object 2 Object 2. But all are called to trial such as excell their teachers Answ Answ Why not all as well as some Duties of Religion are to be imposed without respect of persons It is possible though not so usuall that the Pastor may be exceeded in learning and gifts by some of his Congregation but doth this exempt such from obedience What if a wife have more knowledge then her husband some particular subjects more policy then their governours will this justifie the disobedience of the one or null the authority of the other An humble man may submit to one of meaner abilities then himselfe yea then when they are known and confessed to be so if for no other reasons yet to avoid exceptions and to encourage others such as are able and godly too do seldome scruple this because though they have great abilities yet they know them not so as to oppose them against their duty Again if the persons tried be found so knowing it will adde to their esteem and not diminish it in the least Among other mistakes this is one that our greatest suspition is of ignorance Alas many are better headed then hearted We believe were the truth known among them that stand off from us the greater part suspect their practice more then their knowledge For did they live as they should and as they conceive we expect the discovery of their knowledge of Jesus Christ before a few Christians would not appear so formidable a work yea should we know any under our charges or near us that were susceptible of Catechising any of us we might in policy forbear the calling of them forth without any other reason Nay we could ingenuously say to such as once John to Christ I had need to be taught of thee and comest thou to me which was the answer as I am informed of a Minister not long since to an eminent man submitting to his trial for admission to the Sacrament Shortly we envy no mans gifts but wish them more and their conversation suitable One saies of the present state of the University of Oxford There have been more Muses heretofore Cor. à Lap. in Exod. 6.30 p. 543 but never so many Graces as now We honour Graces above Muses We finde it to be a doubt among the learned whether the common shekel be greater or lesse then that of the Sanctuary Some make it lesse others greater we will not go about to determine this the allusion every one sees reflects upon the particular Ministers however we passe it by There were shekels of gold some others of brasse iron c. Answerable to these are the various kindes and degrees of mens gifts not the largest shekels but the holiest are the best a little piece of gold is better then a great piece of silver Knowledge adorn'd with humility and engaged to advance piety of whatever measure and content is after the shekel and standard of the Sanctuary Object 3 Object 3. We imply that our people are asses Answ Answ We need a paire of tongs to deal with so odious a comparison as this is let it returne to the place from whence it came we leave it to Popish Priests and Episcopal spirits whose guise it hath been to advance themselves and depresse the laity and to this end wish their ignorance rather then their knowing much We maintaine a difference between Officers and members of Churches but we freely acknowledge all godly people to be the Lords Clergy however we are not ignorant of a more restrained use of that word in the Ancients Obj. 4 Object 4. We shape Presbytery to Popery c. Answ Answ These are the dregs of this bitter cup. We stand not much upon the sayings of them that have voted for Presbytery Perchance some voted and acted therein for wrong ends and their votes might prosper accordingly some we are sure were once in a nearnesse to act in that way who were very unmeet for such a work Last of all that Presbytery should be cast into the mould of Popery is a wilde fancy and argues both the corruption of the mans heart and darknesse of his minde that suspects it Men that like not the restraint of their lusts by any Church-government must crie out of Popery covetousnesse ambition Prelacy and such like which are but fig-leaves to cover their nakednesse In a word a man may say this for Presbytery though he be not fond of it that whatever it be else it is the strongest barre that ever was set against Popery SECT 22. Wherein of the fifth and last Querie namely Whether this be not halfe way towards the Independants and symbolize not with the congregational way For what difference is there between their gathering a Church and this collecting together of communicants The fifth query in the tenth section of the Paper some of one place some of another what material disparity is there between their covenant with the Church and this admitting none without satisfaction given and profession made of their sufficiency to the Minister They admit any to the hearing of the Word not