others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by violence for the procuring of an Ordinance for the Kings Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an impediment to their future designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly that was their principal end B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the businesses of the Common-wealth with whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetned Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more liberty in one form of Government than another A. Howsoever to the people that understand by Liberty nothing but leave to do what they list it was a Title not ingrateful Their next work was to set forth a publick Declaration that they were fully resolv'd to maintain the Fundamental Laws of the Nation as to the preservation of the Lives Liberties and Proprieties of the people B. What did they mean by the Fundamental Laws of the Nation A. Nothing but to abuse the people for the only Fundamental Law in every Commonwealth is to obey the Laws from time to time which he shall make to whom the People have given the Supreme Power How likely then are they to uphold the Fundamental Laws that had murdered him who was by themselves so often acknowledged their lawful Soveraign Besides at the same time that this Declaration came forth they were erecting the High Court of Justice which took away the lives of Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland and the Lord Capel whatsoever they meant by a Fundamentall Law the erecting of this Court was a breach of it as being warranted by no former Law or Example in England At the same time also they levied Taxes by Souldiers and permitted Free Quarter to them and did many other Actions which if the King had done they would have said had been done against the Liberty and Propriety of the Subject B. What silly things are the common sort of people to be cozen'd as they were so grosly A. What sort of people as to this matter are not of the common sort the craftiest Knaves of all the Rump were no wiser than the rest whom they cozen'd for the most of them did believe that the same things which they impos'd upon the generality were just and reasonable and especially the great Haranguers and such as pretended to Learning for who can be a good Subject in a Monarchy whose Principles are taken from the Enemies of Monarchy such as were Cicero Seneca Cato and other Polititians of Rome and Aristotle of Athens who spake of Kings but as Wolves and other ravenous Beasts You may perhaps think a man has need of nothing else to know the duty he owes to his Governour and what right he has to order him but a good Natural Wit But it is otherwise for it is a Science and built upon sure and clear Principles and to be learn'd by deep and careful study or from Masters that have deeply studied it And who was there in the Parliament or in the Nation that could find out those evident Principles and derive from thence the necessary Rules of Justice and the necessary Connexion of Justice and Peace The people have one day in seven the leisure to hear Instructions and there are Ministers appointed to teach them their duty But how have these Ministers perform'd their Office A great part of them namely the Presbyterian Ministers throughout the whole War instigated the people against the King so did also Independent and other fanatick Ministers The rest contented with their Livings preached in their Parishes points of Controversie to Religion importinent but to the breach of Charity among themselves very effectual or else Eloquent things which the people either understood not or thought themselves not concern'd in But this sort of Preachers as they did little good so they did little hurt the mischief proceeded wholly from the Presbyterian Preachers who by a long practis'd Histrionick Faculty preached up the Rebellion powerfully B. To what end A. To the end that the State becoming popular the Church might be so too and govern'd by an Assembly and consequently as they thought seeing Politicks are subservient to Religion they might govern and thereby satisfie their covetous humour with Riches and also their malice with Power to undo all men that admir'd not their wisdom Your calling the people silly things oblig'd me by this digression to shew you that it is not want of Wit but want of the Science of Justice that brought them into these troubles Perswade if you can that man that has made his Fortune or made it greater or an Eloquent Orator or a ravishing Poet or a subtil Lawyer or but a good Hunter or a cunning Gamester that he has not a good Wit and yet there were of all these a great many so silly as to be deceived by the Rump They wanted not wit but the knowledge of the Causes and grounds upon which one person has a right to govern and the rest an obligation to obey which grounds are necessary to be taught the people who without them cannot live long in peace among themselves B. Let us return if you please to the proceedings of the Rump A. In the rest of the year they voted a new Stamp for the Coyn of this Nation They considered also of Agents to be sent into foreign parts and having lately receiv'd Applause from the Army for their work done by the High Court of Justice and encouragement to extend the same farther they perfected the said High Court of Justice in which were tryed Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland
the honour of God if it be the Presbyterians fail in that A. Why so They kept some Holy Days and they had Feasts among themselves though not upon the same Days that the Church Ordains but when they thought fit as when it pleased God to give the King any notable Victory and they govern'd themselves in this point by the Holy Scriptures as they pretend to be and can prove they did not believe so B. Let us pass over all other Duties and come to that Duty which we owe to the King and consider whether the Doctrine taught by these Divines which adhered to the King be such in that point as may justifie the Presbyterians that incited the People to Rebellion for that 's the thing you call in Question A Concerning our Duty to our Rulers he hath these words An obedience we must pay either Active or Passive the Active in the Case of all Lawfull Commands that is whenever the Magistrate Commands something which is not contrary to some Command of God we are then bound to Act according to that Command of the Magistrate to do the thing he requires but when he enjoyns any thing contrary to what God hath Commanded we are not then to pay him this 〈◊〉 obedience we may nay we must refuse thus to Act yet here we must be very well assâ—r'd that the thing is so contrary and not pretend Conscience for a Cloak of stubborness we are in that case to obey God rather than men but even this is a season for the Passive obedience we must patiently suffer what he inflicts on us for such refusal and not to secure our selves rise up against him B. What is there in this to give Colour to the late Rebellion A. They will say they did it in obedience to God inasmuch as they did believe it was according to the Scripture out of which they will bring perhaps examples of David and his Adherents that resisted King Saul and of the Prophets afterwards that vehemently from time to time Preached against the Idolatrous Kings of Israel and Judah Saul was their Lawfull King and yet they Paid him neither Active nor Passive obedience for they did put themselves into a posture of defence against him though David himself spared his Person and so did the Presbyterians put into their Commission to their General that they should spare the Kings-Person besides you cannot doubt but that they who in the Pulpit did animate the People to take Arms in defence of the then Parliament alleadged Scripture that is the Word of God for it if it be lawful then for Subjects to resist the K. when he Commands any thing against the Scripture that is contrary to the Command of God and to be Judge of the meaning of the Scripture it is impossible that the Life of any King or the Peace of any Christian Kingdom can be long secure It is this doctrine that divides a Kingdom within it self whatsoever the men be Loyal or Rebels that Write or Preach it publickly And thus you see that if those seditious Ministers be tryed by this Doctrine they will come off well enough B. I see it and wonder at People that having never spoken with God Almighty nor knowing one more than another what he hath said when the Laws and the Preacher disagree should so keenly follow the Minister for the most part an ignorant though a ready tongu'd Scholar rather than the Laws that were made by the King with the consent of the Peers and the Commons of the Land A. Let us examine his words a little nearer First concerning passive Obedience when a Thief hath broken the Laws and according to the Law is therefore executed can any Man understand that this suffering of his is an obedience to the Law Every Law is a Command to do or to forbear neither of these is fulfilled by suffering If any suffering can be called obedience it must be such as is voluntary for no involuntary Action can be counted a submission to the Law He that means that his suffering should be taken for obedience must not only not resist but also not fly nor hide himself to avoid his punishment And who is there among them that discourses of passive obedience when his life is in extream danger that will voluntarily present himself to the Officers of Justice Do not we see that all Men when they are led to execution are both bound and guarded and would break loose if they could and get away Such is their passive Obedience Christ saith the Scribes and Pharisees sate in Moses Chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do Mat. 23. 3. which is a doing an active Obedience and yet the Scribes and Pharisees appear not by the Scripture to have been such Godly men as never to command any thing against the Revealed will of God B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively or is there nothing wherein a Lawful Kings Commands may be disobeyed what if he should command me with my own hands to Execute my Father in Case he should be Condemned to Dye by the Law A. This is a Case that need not be put We never have read nor heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it if any did we are to consider whether that Command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean disobeying his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applied to any particular person for the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of domestick Secrets yet commands the people in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Publick not a Natural person and if such a Command as you speak of were contrived into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the publication of the Law and before the Condemnation of your Father B. You Author says farther in refusing Active obedience to the King that Commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assured that the thing is so contrary I would sain know how is it possible to be assured A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own Mouth receive any Command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures and because men do for the most part rather draw the Scripture to their own sense then follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all cases what God Commands or forbids us to do but by the sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sence of the Scriptures upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question and they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Commonwealths whether they be Bishops