others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
or Ministers or Assemblies that Govern the Church under him or them that have the Soveraign Power B. Some doubts may be raised from this that you now say for if men be to learn their Duty from the sentence which other men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were Translated into English and every man not only permitted but also exhorted to read them for what could that produce but diversity of Opinion and consequently as man's nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scriptures were allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean Capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English and as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the Transgression of some Law The same question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those Men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4. 1◠when b◠Ananias the High-Priest and others of the Council of Jerusalem they were forbidden any more to teach in the name of Jesus whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken to you more than unto God A. The Case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrote did know he was God and consequently knew certainly 〈◊〉 their Disobedience to the High Priests present command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own Mouth received a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the form and nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places he directly and evidently Commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite doth not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King 's shall decide the questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not receieved but by the Authority of Kings and States chief Judge of the Rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture to obey the King's Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey and obey God a Minister ought not to think that his Skill in the Latine Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a priviledge to impose upon all his Fellow-subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as often as he hath found some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by inspiration as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his Stubornness and Contumacy towards the King and his Laws is nothing but Pride of heart and Ambition or else Imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easily to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as is necessary to Salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispose the mind of any ordinary Readers that the Reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great Damage to them and the Commonwealth B. All that is required both in Faith and Manner 's for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children Obey you◠Parents in all things Servants obey your Masters Let all men be subject to the Higher Powers whether it be the King or those that are sent by him Love God with all your Soul and your Neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their Duty so to do they see not that the safety of the Commonwealth and consequently their own depends upon the doing of it Every man by Nature without Discipline does in all his Actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself by his Obedience he Reads that Covetousness is the Root of all Evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the Root of his Estate And so in other Cases the Scripture says one thing and they think another weighing the Commodities or Incommodities of this present Life only which are in their sight never putting into the Scales the Good and Evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All this is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sence of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the Grounds of their Duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inferiour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon precepts and Laws B. These men of the condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easiy places that teach them their Duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the Will of God whether Sanctity comes by inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to
wisest and fittest to be chosen for a Parliament who was most averse to the granting of Subsidies or other publick Payments B. In such a Constitution of People methinks the King is already outed of his Government so as they need not have taken Arms for it For I cannot imagine how the King should come by any means to resist them A. There was indeed very great difficulty in the business but of that point you will be better informed in the pursuit of this Narration B. But I desire to know first the several grounds of the Pretences both of the Pope and of the Presbyterians by which they claim a Right to govern us as they do in chief and after that from whence and when crept in the Pretences of that Long Parliament for a Democrasie A. As for the Papists they challenge this Right from a Text in Deut. 17. and other like Texts according to the Old Latin Translation in these words And he that out of Pride shall refuse to obey the Commandment of that Priest which shall at that time Minister before the Lord thy God that man shall by the Sentence of the Judge be put to Death and because the Jews were the People of God then so is all Christendom the People of God now they infer from thence that the Pope whom they pretend to be High Priest of all Christian People ought also to be obeyed in all his Decrees by all Christians upon pain of Death Again whereas in the New Testament Christ saith all Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth go therefore and teach all Nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and teach them to observe all those things that I have commanded you from thence they inâ—er that the Command of the Apostles was to be obeyed by consequence the Nations were bound to be governed by them and especially by the Prince of the Apostles St. Peter and by his Successors the Popes of Rome B. For the Text in the Old Testament I do not see how the Commandment of God to the Jews to obey their Priests can be interpreted to have the like force in the Case of other Nations Christian more then upon Nations Unchristian For all the world are Gods People unless we also grant that a King cannot of an Infidel be made Christian without making himself subject to the Laws of that Apostle or Priest or Minister that shall convert him The Jews were a peculiar People of God a Sacerdotal Kingdom and bound to no other Law but what first Moses and afterwards every High Priest did go and receive immediately from the Mouth of God in Mount Sinai in the Tabernacle of the Ark and in the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple And for the Text in St. Mathew I know the words in the Gospel are not Go teach but Go and make Disciples and that there is a great difference between a Subject and a Disciple and between teaching and commanding and if such Texts as these must be so interpreted why do not Christian Kings lay down their Titles of Majesty and Soveraignty and call themselves the Popes Lieutenants But the Doctors of the Romish Church seem to decline that Title of Absolute Power in their distinction of Power Spiritual and Temporal but this Distinction I do not very well understand A. By Spiritual Power they mean the Power to determine Points of Faith and to be Judges in the Inner Court of Conscience of Moral Duties and of a Power to punish those men that obey not their Precepts by Ecclesiastical Censure that is by Excommunication and this Power they say the Pope hath immediately from Christ without dependance upon any King or Soveraign Assembly whose Subjects they 〈◊〉 that stand Excommunicate But for the Power Temporal which consists in judging and punishing those Actions that are done against the Civil Law they say they do not pretend to it directly but only indirectly That is to say so far forth as such Actions tend to the hinderance or advancement of Religion in ordine ad Spiritualia B. What Power then is leâ—t to Kings and other Civil Soveraignâ— which the Pope may not pretend to be in ordine ad Spiritualia A. None or very little and this Power the Pope not only pretends to in all Christendom but some of his Bishops also in their several Diâ—cesses jure Divino 〈◊〉 that is immediately from Christ without deriving it from the Pope B. But what if a man refuse Obedience to this pretended Power of the Pope and his Bishops what harm can Excommunication do him especially if he be a Subject of an other Soveraign A. Very great harm for by the Popes or Bishops Signification of it to the Civil Power he shall be punished sufficiently B. He were in an ill Case then that adventured to write or speak in defence of the Civil Power that must be punished by him whose Rights he desâ—nded â—ike Uzza that was slain because he would needs unbidden put forth his hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once What effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said at least by any of the Popes Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to do with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same Case as if a Nation should be cast off by their King and left to be Governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not be taken so much for a Punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation methinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights the Pope pretended to in the Kingdoms of other Princes A. First an Exemption of all Priests Friâ—rs and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and Exaction of Tenths Fruits and other payments Thirdly Appeals to Râ—me in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the â—upreme Judge concerning the Lawfullness of Marriage i. e. concerning the Hereditarâ— Succession of Kings and to have the Cognizance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B Good A Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly A power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oathes of Fidelity to their Lawful Soveraigns when the Pope should think fit for the Extirpation of Heresie B. This power of Absolving Subjects of their Obedience as also that other of being Judges of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Soveraignty as is possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and so no man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of Making