matters of greatest moment and controversie we still choose to practise safely and so as we had reason to judge that all sorts or the most of all the Churches did acknowledge warrantable although they make additaments thereunto To this third great principle of yours I answer 1. To it generally as you lay it downe here generally and afterwards more particularly to the instances and particulars brought by you to make it good In this principle you labour to cast an odium upon all the reformed Churches who differ from you dealing by them in such a medium and way as the Protestants doe by the Papists wheras we alleadge against the Papists that the Protestant Religion is via tuta and what we practise they themselves cannot but allow only they hold and practise over and above as namely they adde to Christs Righteousnesse their own in the point of Justification to Christs intercession the intercession of the Virgin Mary and Saints to prayers unto God prayers to Angels and Saints to the Scriptures the traditions of the Church to our Sacraments confest by themselves five others c. So here you say that you chose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge other Churches did acknowledge warrantable but they make additaments and this you weave in all along in the particular instances under this head and it lyes upon them to prove what they adde over and above Now besides the great dissimilitude and difference of additaments in the things themselves between the Protestants and Papists and you and the reformed Churches the Papists additaments being in matters of faith and substance of worship but the matters excepted against by you being about outward government and order and that not so much about the things themselves the officers parts of worship but about the different manner and way of them as you acknowledge in your eighth pages and so you had no such cause to insinuate such matters against the reformed Churches yet consider that what you doe hold forth and take as your medium you have no good ground for which will appeare in three particulars and so your Apologie held forth unto the world is neither true nor just 1. I will demonstrate that in many matters of greatest moment and controversie you did not still choose to practise safely and so as you had reason to judge that all sorts or most of the Churches did acknowledge warrantable 2. That the reformed Churches practised more safely then you and did not make additaments as you charge them 3. That you in many Church practises have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then in such circumstances wherein you tax the reformed Churches For the first of these three Take these three Instances for the present 1. It is a matter of great moment and controversie to forsake the publike Assemblies which you confesse are true Churches and the body of Christ and to set up separated assemblies without and against the leave of the Magistrate Ministers and Churches This is by the judgment of all the godly and learned Divines of note both in other Churches and in our own condemned as unlawfull by Calvin Beza Peter Martyr Zanchius Bullinger Iunius Pareus Morneus Arnesius Voetius c. with Whitakers Brightman Perkins Cartwright Parker Banes Hildersham Ball. c. I could fill a booke with the testimonies of these and many others and I doe challenge the Separatists of all sorts whether them of the head-forme the Anabaptists or of the middle-forme the old Brownists or the lowest-forme the Semi-Separatists to give me any precept or allowed example of such a practise out of the Primitive patterne shew it me and I will yeild the cause As for that place Rev. 18. 4. you professe against that in your 6 t page of having any thoughts of our Churches or Ministers to be Antichristian and Babilonish I could alledge many Scriptures against this practise Iude v. 19 c. The Apostles who were sent by Christ into the world to make Disciples and to bring men from Judaisme and Heathenisme to beleeve in Christ and to plant Churches of such yet they never taught nor practised to gather and separate some Christians from the rest one part of the Church from the other to goe constitute a purer Church neither in Corinth Philippi c. Although there were many corruptions and many loose persons But Paul taught and practised to censure and cast out evill persons but in case those who had power neglected their duty he never taught the godly to separate from the Lords Supper celebrated in the publike Assemblies much lesse for a few to withdraw from their Pastours and other brethren and to set up new Churches of themselves You are Schollers and well read in the Scriptures shew me but any such direction from the Apostles and I am yours 2. It is a matter of moment and controversie the right making and calling of the Ministers of the Gospell now all the reformed Churches according to the examples of Scripture hold Ministers are not to be made by the people alone and that the people have not power of Ordination and Imposition of hands but the Presbyters and yet you have practised the being cal'd and made Ministers by the people without the Imposition of hands of the preaching Presbyters 3. It is a matter of great moment and controversie whether private Christians who were never trained up in Arts and learning nor intended the Ministery may in the publike Congregation Prophesie which Prophesying as it is not practised by the Reformed Churches so by most of them it is not counted warrantable and yet you allowed it in your Churches to which I might adde more instances but that the book would swell into too great a volume To the second head it is evident the râ—…formed Churchs practised more safely as in declining your way in the last mentioned Instances in not permitting such as are Lay-men to preach or prophesie in not forsaking true Churches or true Ministery for the mixture of wicked men but rather casting out such who after admonition continue impenitent so in other practises practising as the Apostles receiving men into their fellowship without any such curious inquirie and long detention sending men from one to another and requiring such preparatives and conditions to Church-fellowship as your Churches have done The wayes and practises the reformed Churches walked in were the good old way knowne and beaten for some score of yeares in which so many great lights and godly people have walkt and so more safe then bie and new wayes that a few men but of yesterday have taken up and have not yet well aired much lesse digested And in the name of other reformed Churches France Holland Scotland I deny the things you charge them with to be additaments or to be properly so called for if the particulars instanced in by you will be found to have a footing in the Scriptures and practised
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ—… suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common
word to hinder the deposing of Mr Ward and so to have prevented so great a scandall and offence as this was To the fifth and last generall head the comparison you make between the effectualnesse and powerfulnesse of your way of submission and non-communion and that of the Presbyterians to awe and preserve Churches and Elders in their duties and to reduce Churches miscarrying where you make the sâ—…ales fall on your side rather I answer Besides some considerable things already hinted under some of the former heads especially under the fourth head which doe shew a wide difference of the effectualnesse and successe which the Presbyterian principles and way hold out over your Congregationall thâ—…e are many other to 〈◊〉 the sâ—…les which I shall now speake of according as 't is laid downe here by you in the 17 18 and 19 pages 1. That you may render your way the more specious and probable you beg the question and take for granted things denied supposing that also which never hath fallen out in the reformed Churches and you speake but to a part of the way and remedie namely excommunication anâ—… from all these false premises you make your conclusion You lay downe your way of submission and non-communion 〈◊〉 that â—…ch is the 〈◊〉 and way of Christ and to be strictly enjoyned by Christ â—…d that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are â—…ly offended to denounce such a sentence of non-communion which is a meere device of your own brains and sound out to give a colourable answer to that common and 〈◊〉 reason against the Church-way 〈◊〉 you make that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Presbyteries to be an excommunicating of whole Churches and â—…s delivering of whole Churches and their Eldere offending unto Saâ—…n which is a scandalous charge laid to tho Presbyterian government and never yet was â—…rd of in any of the reformed Churches for the space now of a hundred yeares past You lay you give more to the Magistrates power then the principle of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld whereas in some things I shall show the contrary and in other things you may out of policie at this time give more then the Scriptures allow You speake only of excommunication a part of their way whereas in combined classicall government there are many other meanes and ways from first to last to preserve and reduce from errors and offences 2. The comparison made by you between the Presbyterians and Independents stands in two things First In the Ecclesiasticall proceedings and power Secondly In the civill Magistrates power 1. For the Ecclesiasticall you make that principle of submission of Churches that miscarry and that of non-communion as effectuall as excommunication which supposing they were as I shall shew they are not yet 't is a fallacious reasoning by comparing the whole with a part for a whole of one kind may be better and more excellent then some part of another kind and yet not comparable to the whole now there are many things in Presbyteriall government besides excommunication excellent to preserve and keep the Churches Their reformation and constitution being setled by Synods and Assemblies their Ministers being ordained by Presbyteries and classes their Doctrine worship government and discipline upon serious debate and by common content drawn up then rules being fixt known and certaine their classicall meetings frequent and constant with higher Assemblies for appeales their number and abilities great their remedies and censures more solemne and more in number as deposition suspension c. all which are wanting in the Church way as I could shew at large but that this answer would be too great a volume But to come to particulars the Presbyterian is more effectuall then your Independent way 1. Because it doth prevent and preserve from those many errours divisions evils which fall in your way as is evident by experience and is founded upon good reason will fall out now how much better and more effectuall a way 't is to play the fore-game then the after-game all men know 't is better to prevent the plague and taking in poyson then to expell it government is for prevention as well as recovering if your way were as effectuall to compose differences and reduce Churches yet not so to prevent which is one of the great ends of Church government 2. Your way wraps in whole Churches in sin and guilt and you have no remedy but it must come to non-communion of whole Churches but in Presbyteriall 't is not so no example being extant among them of excommunicating whole Churches so that if an errour take one or two they are presently dealt with and the errour spreads not to a whole Church 3. In the Presbyteriall way the persons offending and sinning in Congregations are proceeded with and punished every man beares his own sin but the innocent persons suffer not but here in the way of non-communion some who are good in the Church suffer also many wayes and here is no difference made by you but all involved in the same condition 4. In your way as if all sins were equall and all offenders alike all are punished with the same sentence of non-communion but 't is not so in the Presbyteriall way 5. Your submissions and meetings are accidentall uncertaine free and at choice they may be and may not be there are many wayes to evade and put them off whereas the combinations and consociations of Churches are fixed set certaine Amongst your Churches in Holland in three or foure yeares there was but one act of submission and one meeting which is here related In that difference between those two Churches at Rotterdam there was no submission but each Church blew the trumpet of defiance against each other and so about the differences at Arnheim which the Church could not end in so long a time no Church interposed but in the classicall government there is such a subordination and dependencie such stated and fixed meetings that if men should escape one they do not all now in government and order there is a materiall difference between what men may doe or not doe and what they have tied themselves unto and must stand to In matters of civill difference referred to Arbitratours 't is one thing to submit to hearing and to counsell upon it and another thing to be bound to stand to the determination There are many will doe justly and performe such trusts whilest bound who left at liberty will doe just nothing now in your submission of Churches though you submit to a hearing yet you doe not submit to their determinations unlesse it like you you doe not submit to doe what they enjoyne but you will order your selves according to their counsell as you see occasion now men being partiall in their own cause and still their own judges what a remedie is this 't is one thing when men know they are at liberty and may doe or not doe as they see good and another
also that the rules which we gave up our judgements unto to judge those we received in amongst us by were of that latitude as would take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other at all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by We tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with us or adverse unto us And Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of as touching the members of it to be a true Church with which communion might be held And having answered generally I come now to the particulars brought to make this third principle good and shall shew how little there is in them to make good that they are brought for To your first instance of chusing the better part and to be sure receiving in none for members of Churches but such as all Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull 1. To speake nothing now of that how in Churches there may be a receiving to some of the ordinances and so to be under the care of the Ministers a receiving of others that is there may be members to a part and there are members as to all the ordinances and so according to the first there may be a promiscuous receiving and mixture for which I can give good reasons and instances as in children catechumenists but must not handle at large every point now which your Narration hints aâ—… 2. In your admission of members you chose not the better part nor the safer To goe on the hand of charitie and love is the better part and safer hand which charitie if you looke into the 1 Cor. 13. hopes the best thinkes no evill c. And a man had better receive some of whom there may be some doubt and feare then discourage and refuse any of Christ little ones which both your principle and practise hath done abundantly in New-England and in England But here in your Narration you deale fallaciously in stating the question For the question is not about receiving in none but such as all Churches in the world would acknowledge faithfull but about receiving in all and refusing none whom the Churches had no reason but to acknowledge faithfull For according to your words laid downe and as you would carry it to deceive the Reader with of receiving none but such as all Churches would acknowledge faithfull you might receive in but a few of high forme Christians whom also all the Churches in the world would not as some hold the ballance acknowledge to be faithfull and so you might receive in but a very few And it is evident by your practise that many whom all the Reformed Churches hold fit to be received having a competent knowledge of God Christ and themselves and live free from all scandalous and grosse sins and outwardly practise duties both to God and man even multitudes of these you will not admit nor doe not into your Churches And as to that just and true profession you are able to make That the rules you gave up your judgements unto to judge those you received in amongst you by were of that latitude to take in any member of Christ c. I must tell you this is like some of your just and true professions before namely unjust and untrue this is neither the first nor the last unjust and untrue profession in your Narration and I shall make it good both by your practises by some rules laid down by some of your selves Mr Goodwins letter in answer to Mr Iohn Goodwin grants they require of men to admission into their Churches that they know what belongs to Church-fellowship and doe acknowledge the same and approve thereof with other things of that nature now whether this be a rule of that latitude that will take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other as all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by I appeale to your owne consciences That holy Martyr Bradford with many more not only the least but great starres in the firmament of the Church never knew nor dreamt of what belong'd to your Church-fellowship and I am confident that M. Goodwin M. Bridge my selfe with many others many yeares after wee were members of Christ and conversed together in Cambridge as Saints yet understood not what belonged to this Church-covenant and Church-fellowship and this is such a rule that multitudes of the godly in this kingdome carry not in their bosomes to judge others by nor would not themselves be judged by nor never heard of such things till your times And if your rules were of such a latitude as would take in any members of Christ the meanest whence came it to passe that in New-England so many men in whom the godly have presumed to be something of Christ and who are you to judge the contrarie have not yet been admitted and amongst many other instances that might be given in your owne Churches I will name one Mistris Symonds a modest humble woman many years well reputed of in England of godly Parents wife to a godly Minister who though her husband was received a member of M. Sympsons Church and then chosen the Pastour yet his wife could not be received into the Church along time and whether yet she be I know not I have been told also from one who lived in those parts that after M. Sympson upon rending from M. Bridge had set up a new Church one who was upon his tryall for admission into M. Sympsons Church was openly asked by a prime man who had a hand in that rent what his judgement was of the Brethrens libertie to prophecie and if the man had not been right in that point it might have hazarded his Membership And that the Reader may not be abused nor amused with such kind of passages but that it may appeare what ever here you say you have other rules and require other things of men to communion with you pray satisfie us What was the reason and what is the matter that when M. Iohn Goodwin fell to your principles and way so many godly persons of his owne Parish could not be received in by him as Church-members nor accounted so without yeelding to some rules and conditions which they being members of Christ and some of them nâ—…ne of the meanest could not condescend unto As to that you say You tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with you or adverse unto you I appeale to your consciences if my selfe or some others whom you have accounted godly should have declared their opinions adverse to your Church-covenant and other of your Church principles and yet being in Holland should have desired for the time to have been
are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceableneâ—… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer noâ—… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erroâ—…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vindeâ—… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see