superficial it skilleth not refel it or receiue it Theo. Marke the strength of your argument Needlesse companie with idolatrous wicked persons is prohibited ergo the necessarie subiection to Princes which God commandeth may be refused Phi. We say not needelesse companie but all companie Theo. S. Paul by that worde excludeth not charity much lesse duetie but barreth only that familiaritie which may be relinquished without breach of either Phi. That is your paraphrase not S. Pauls Theo. Weigh the wordes of S. Paul better and your selfe will bee of the same minde with me Thus he saith I wrote vnto you by letters that ye should not keepe companie with fornicatours and I ment not simplie with the fornicatours of this worlde or with the couetous or with extorsioners or with idolatours for then must you goe out of the world But now haue I written to you that you shoulde not bee companions with such If anie man that is called a brother be a Whoore-master or couetous or an idolater or a railer or a drunkard or an extorter eate not with such an one To eate with a man is familiaritie that may be forborne without contempt of Christian Charitie or dutie and that the Apostle willeth them to refraine teaching the Thessalonians to what end and in what sort he would haue it doone If any man obay not our sayings note him by a letter and haue no companie with him that he may be ashamed yet count him not as an enimie but admonish him as a brother When as yet there were no Christian magistates to keepe men by feare from offending S. Paul chargeth the Christians to shew their zeale in shunning the companie of vnruly persons at meate and other familiar meetinges thereby the rather to make them ashamed and to reduce them to Christian and comly behauiour Which precept was general for all disorders We commaund you brethren in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that you withdraw your selues frō euery brother that walketh inordinately not after the institution which you receiued of vs. Phi. For smaller offences this might be but for heresie S. Paul saith A man that is an hertike after the first and second admonition auoide And so doth S. Iohn If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine receiue him not into your house nor say God saue you vnto him If we may not so much as salute them doe you thinke we may serue them or obey them Theo Were you in debt to an heretike would you not pay him his own because you must not salute him Phi. Debt is dew whether he be Turke Infidel or heretike therefore reason he haue his owne but I must not do that which I neede not Theo. And whether thinke you the truer debt that which groweth by our act and consent or that which is imposed vppon vs by the will and commaundement of God As when S. Paul saith Owe nothing to any man but giue to all men their due Do you not think this as good debt as if it were in coyne Phi. If it be their due Theo. We owe it not if it be not due but if it be must we not render that which is due to all men be they Turks infidels and heretikes Phi. To heretiks nothing is due Theo. Doth not the seruant owe faithful diligence to his master notwithstanding his master be an infidel or an heretik Phi. If the master become an heretik the seruant is ipso facto made free Theo. By whose law Gods or mans Phi. By the ciuill lawes of auncient Emperours Theo. But before those lawes were made by Princes might seruants by Gods law refuse their masters for idolatry or heresie Phi. For idolatrie he might not whatsoeuer for heresie The. If God wil haue christiā seruāts obediēt subiect to their masters in al things to please thē though they be infidels enimies to the faith why not likewise to them that are deceiued in some points of faith The like we aske of man and wife Might the husband forsake his wife or the woman her husband for these causes Phi. For infidelitie they might Theo. And what for heresie Ph. The case is not ruled Theo. Yeas that it is Our Sauiour forbiddeth all men to put awaie their wiues except it bee for adulterie Now adulterie is not heresie And this was Pope Caelestinus his errour which Innocentius the 3. cōdemneth Therfore the case is ruled both by Gods Law and by your own Decretals Phi. They may not bee diuorced Theo. Then must she continue still his wife and is by Gods lawe bounde to bee subiect vnto him and to loue him though he be an heretike or an infidel And so are the children bound to cherish honor and obey their Parentes by the Lawe of God notwithstanding they be Ethnikes or aliens from the faith And therefore these prohibitions Eate not with them keepe them not companie salute them not discharge not seruants children nor wiues for yeelding that duetie to their masters parentes and husbandes which God hath commaunded but cut off onely that familiar and friendly greeting saluting conuersing which amongest brethren is requisite but to wicked and vngodly persons may without sinne be denied Phi. What then is your answere Theo. S. Paul forbiddeth voluntarie companie not necessarie duetie S. Iohn those familar and friendly salutations which argue good liking and fauour to the parties and may bee forborne not that publike subiection to Magistrats which God hath inioyned vs whether we will or no. Phi. Ought we to flatter Princes if they be heretik◠Theo. We may flatter no man in that which is euill yet must we giue euill mē that which God hath allowed them The places which you bring barre no kinde of duetie prescribed by the law of God neither of seruauntes to their masters nor of children to their parentes nor of wiues to their husbandes though their masters parentes and husbands be heretikes much lesse doe they prohibite submission to Princes which God exacteth before these domestical duties and commaundeth all men Apostles and Bishops not excepted to giue feare honour subiection and tribute to Princes as their due when Princes as yet were pernicious idolaters and barbarous persecutors of the faith faithfull And who that hath any regard of trueth will preferre your crooked shapelesse consequēts before the manifest doctrine of Christ and his Apostles Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars You must bee subiect whosoeuer resisteth power resisteth the ordinance of God Honour the king and submit your selues whether it be to the king as the chiefe excelling or vnto the Gouernors as sent by him For so is the wil of God These be flat plaine precepts which you can not ouerthrow but with an euident direct and speciall release The directions which the Apostles gaue to shame the disordered
life Theo. The necessities of this life are nourishment and rayment the rest are superflâ—ities When wee haue foode and apparel sayth the Apostle let vs bee therewith content whatsoeuer is aboue is needlesse and noysome Our Sauiour willing his not to bee carefull for their life expresseth all thinges that bee needefull for this present life Take no thought saying what shall wee eate what shall wee drinke or wherewith shall wee bee clothed Your heauenly Father knoweth that you haue neede of these thinges These thinges wee neede and therefore are they promised other thinges are not promised and therefore we neede them not If Princes were first ordained of God for those thinges onely which are needefull to maintaine this temporall life for thinges superfluous are besides the promise and without the protection of GOD the power and charge of Princes shoulde consist in meates drinkes and apparell and Princes haue no farther care of their people than they haue of their houndes and Horses to see them well fedde and smoothe kept which is a very wicked and brutish opinion Phi. They are besides to maintaine peace and quietnes among their subiects Theo. You might haue ioyned godlines and honestie therewithall as S. Paul doeth and then had you done well I exhort sayth hee that prayers and supplications be made for Kings for all that are in authoritie that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Prayers must bee made for kinges that they may discharge their duties according to Gods ordinance which is that their subiects by their helpe and meanes may leade an honest godly and quiet life godlinesse and honestie being the chiefest endes of our praiers and effectes of their powers For God hath not put the goodes landes bodies and liues of men into Princes handes to cloath their backes and fill their bellies but with praise to prouoke those that be willing to driue those that be not willing with punishments to imbrace pietie towards God sobrietie towardes themselues and charitie towardes their neighbours This you may learne by the regiment of euery priuate familie which is both a part and a paterne of the common-wealth Al parents and masters haue a farther charge ouer their children and seruantes than to see them defended froÌ„ hunger and colde A wicked father is hee that feedeth and cloatheth and nourâ—ereth not his children Ye fathers saith S. Paul bring vp your children in the instruction and information of the Lord. Come children saith Dauid harken vnto me I will teach you the feare of the Lord. Moses admonishing the whole people of the Iewes as it were speaking to euery particular maÌ„ Take heed saith he to thy selfe that thou forget not the thinges which thine eyes haue seene and that they depart not out of thine heart all the dayes of thy life but teach them thy sonnes and thy sonnes sonnes and so God himselfe said to Moses Gather mee the people togither and I will cause them to heare my words that they may learne to feare me all the dayes that they shall liue vpon the earth and that they may teach their children This diligence God coÌ„mended and rewarded in Abraham as the best part of a fathers duetie I know him saith God that hee will commaund his sonnes and his houshold after him that they keepe the waie of the Lord to do righteousnes and iudgement that the Lord may bring vpon Abraham that good which he hath spoken vnto him If priuate men be bound to traine vp their families in the feare of God and loue of vertue much more are Princes the publike fathers of their countries and exalted to farre greater and higher authoritie by Gods ordinance than fathers or masters I say much more are they in coÌ„science charged by calling licenced to frame their subiectes to the true seruice of God right obedience of his law which be thinges not temporal but spiritual This king Dauid protesteth and promiseth vnto God he will doe in his kingdom Him that priuilie slaundereth his neighbour will I destroy Mine eyes shall be to the faithfull of the Land that they may dwell with mee hee that walketh in a perfect way he shal serue me There shall no deceitful or proude person dwell within mine house hee that telleth lies shall not remaine in my sight Betimes will I destroy all the wicked of the Land that I may cut off al the workers of iniquitie from the citie of the Lord. This christian Princes as you heard before made not onely a part but the chiefest part of their duetie The true religion of God and honest conuersation euen of Priests themselues is our chiefest care saith Iustinian And so Valentinian Theodosius The search of true religion we finde to be the chiefest care of the Imperiall Maiestie With whom S. Austen agreeth defending Felix a catholike Bishop against the Donatists for that he was cleared at a temporall bar by the Princes commandement of such crimes as were obiected to him notwithstanding they were ecclesiasticall One of you saith a Bishop ought not to be cleared at the Proconsuls bar as though he sought it not rather the Emperour commanded that kinde of trial to be had to whose charge that matter did most pertaine and whereof the Prince was to render an account to God Of this mind were the Bishops of Rome themselues in former ages Eleutherius not long after Christ wrote to Lucius king of this realm amongst other things in this wise You are Gods Vicar in that kingdom The natioÌ„s people of Britanny are yours whom you ought to gather bring vnto concord peace vnto the faith law of Christ vnto his holy Church to nourish maintaine protect rule alwaies to defende from iniuries mischiefs froÌ„ enemies A king you shal be whiles you rule wel which except you do you shal be vnworthy the name of a king loose it which God forbid So Pope Iohn made answere to Pipin Charles Illos decet vocari Reges qui vigilaÌ„ter defendunt regunt ecclesiam Dei populum eius imitati Regem Psalmographum dicentem non habitabit in medio domus meae qui facit superbiam c. We must cal those kings which doe carefully defend rule the church of God his people after the example of king Dauid in his Psalmes a proude man shall not dwel in mine house This Gregory the great earnestly exhorted Edelberth vnto the first that was christened of the Saxon kings in this Land For this cause the almightie God bringeth good Princes to the regiment of his people that by them hee may bestow the gifts of his mercy vpon al that are vnder theÌ„ Therfore glorious son the grace which you haue obtained at Gods hands keepe with a careful minde hasten to extend the faith of Christ in the nations vnder you Increase the zeale of your vprightnes to
sworde which the Prince and not the Priest beareth in Gods behalfe to force refusers and chastiâ—e malefactours as I before at large haue proued And so by consequent Princes are neither bound to the Popes hest for direction nor in daunger of the Popes court for correction but that they may by the aduise and instruction of such as bee learned and godly pastors about them vse their swords for the receiuing setling of trueth and perfect establishing of Christs wil testament within their owne realmes without expectâ—ng or regarding what the bishops of Rome and his adherentes like or allow Phi. But all this while you resolue not who shall be iudge which is the true will and Testament of Christ. Theo. Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe We find no place nor person to whom the sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his wil but only to himselfe Phi. You bind the people to followe the Prince which of all others is the worst way to come by truth Theo. We bind no man to prince nor Pope for matters of faith Only we say subiects must endure their princes with patience when they command for error obey them with diligence when they maintaine the truth Farther or other seruitude in causes of conscience wee lay on no man and that burden the church of Christ neuer refused neither vnder heretikes Apostataes nor infidels til the Pope growing great by the ruine of the Empire and encreasing as fast in pride as he did in wealth would needs giue the aduenture to rule kingdomes depose Princes though by Gods lawe hee haue no more power nor iurisdiction ouer them than any other Bishop hath which is so farre from that he claimeth and vsurpeth that he as well as other Bishops should be subiect to the sword and obedient to the lawes of the Romane Emperour and so was hee as I haue plainely shewed to the time that forsaking the Grecians and reuolting from the Germanes hee learned to chaunge Lords so often that at length what with sedition of subiects dissention of princes superstition of al sorts the mysterie of iniquitie working he made himselfe Lord and master of all Phi. You bee lothe I see to yeeld the bishop of Rome any right to force princes to their dueties Theo. And you be as willing he should not only take their crownes but tread on their neckes though hee haue no right to superuise their doings or censure their persons Phi. If it be not his right we aske it not Theo. If it be his right we resist it not Phi. Will you admit it if we proue it Theo. Will you not claime it except you proue it Phi. We will not Theo. Then say what you will or can for the confirmation of it THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie Phi. THE Pope may reproue Princes excommunicate them and if neede bee depose them which other Bishoppes can not doe Theo. Seuer these thinges which you ioyne togither and the truth will the sooner appeare Reproue them he may when they violate the precepts of God and so may any other Bishop or teacher For God hath placed them in his church to teach reproue instruct reforme as wel Princes as others charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince The will of God must be declared to all and sinne reproued in all without dissembling or flattering with any sort or State of men and that is most expedient for all euen for Princes themselues rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation than to run to their owne destruction without recalling or warning So Samuel reproued king Saul Ahias king Ieroboam Elias king Achab Elizeus king Iehoram Iohn Baptist king Herod Neither were wicked Princes onely but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets as namely king Dauid by Nathan king Iehosaphat by Iehu and Ezechias by the Prophet Esaie but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them and their dueties againe towardes him They neuer offered violence to their Persons nor preiudice to their States onely they did Gods message vnto them without halting or doubling and so should euery Preacher and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part But farther or other attemptes against Princes than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God God hath not permitted vnto Preachers Prophets Prelats nor Popes Phi. Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes which is more than reprouing them in words Theo. If you meane they may not minister the Sacramentes vnto Princes without faith and repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table we graunt they must rather hazard their liues than baptize Princes which beleeue not or distribute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not but giue wilful and open signification of impietie to the dishonoring of his name that is authour of those thinges and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboundaunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and conuert they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes but with lowlines of hart assuraunce of fayth and amendment of life submit themselues vnder the mighty hand of God to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall ouerthrowe and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe as much as the vices of meaner men or rather more No small vengeance sayth Chrysostom hangeth ouer your heades which be ministers if you suffer any heynous offendour to be partaker of this table His blood shall be required at your hands Whether he be Captaine Lieutenant or crowned king if hee come vnworthily forbid him in this case thy power is greater than his Phi. If they may be excommunicated ergo they may be deposed Theo. How doth that follow Phi. Well enough When a Prince is excommunicated hee looseth all right to rule and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeelding any obedience to him Theo. Who tould you so Phi. No catholike Diuine of
and shunne the wicked when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates to represse them or punish them may not rashly be stretched to the Magistrates person or function neither must you so force generall and indirect speeches of the Scripture that they shall euert the speciall and expresse commaundements of God But God hath expressely prescribed subiection and tribute to vitious tyrannous and Idolatrous Princes for such they were of whom Christ and his Apostles spake as no man can denie Therefore no consequent of Scripture may be wrested against it least you make the wil of God changeable or repugnant to it selfe which is heinous impietie to perswade or beleeue Phi. To tyrants and idolaters we must he subiect but not to heretikes although they bee Princes Theo. Confessing the former which you can not chose but admit by what meanes auoide you the later Heretiks may be Princes as well as idolaters and to Princes in respect of their power not of their vertues God will haue vs subiect S. Paul doeth not say Let euerie soule bee subiect to christian and vertuous powers but vnto supreme powers euen whē they were worshippers of diuels and spillers of christian blood Let vs therefore heare what ground you haue out of Gods law why this precept you must be subiect shall hold in blasphemous and Idoolatrous Princes but not in hereticall or excommunicate persons Phi. I told you before S. Iohn saith If any man bring not this doctrine salute him not Theo. Did those Tyrants and idolaters that were Prnces whiles S. Iohn liued bring the doctrine of Christ with them Phi. No but this is ment of heretikes Theo. It was spoken of all as well impugners as betraiers of the faith and why then do you restraine it to heretikes Phi. Christians might eate with Infidels but not with heretikes Theo. They might with those that were ignorant of the faith with purpose no winne them but not with those that impugned the faith for that could haue none other intent but feare or flatterie And with such S. Paul forbiddeth the christians all concord communion and fellowship Draw not the yoke with infidels For what fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnesse what communion hath light with darknesse what concord hath Christ with Belial or what part hath the beleeuer with the infidel Wherefore come out from among them and separate your selues saith the Lord. Separate your selues from them is as much as salute them not or eate not with them and yet were Christians bound to obey such with all submission if they were Magistrates Againe they might not eate with adulterers raylers drunkards extorsioners nor with any couetous persons might they therefore disobey the magistrate that was spotted with any of these or the like vices Phi. Not except hee were excommunicated for those vices Theo. Then neither Apostasie nor heresie depriue Princes of their authoritie but excommunication only which you may inflict as well for any disorder as for heresie Phi. What fault finde you with that Theo. You make excommunication but a limetwigge to intangle the persons and indaunger the states of Princes by maintaining rebellion against them vnder the name of religion when they wil not be ruled as you would haue them or not suffer their Realmes to ly open to the pray and pride of the Bishop of Rome For then hee must take vppon him to be the whole church which he is not excommunicate them whom hee should not and after that excommunication denounced you teach the people to refuse subiection to beare armes against their lawfull Magistrates vppon this pretence that you haue deposed them and disinherited them of their kingdoms which is a wicked and false presumption of yours resistant to the lawes of God and man For graunt hee might excommunicate them which yet is not proued the vttermost perill of excommunication before men is that which our Sauiour expresseth in Sainct Matthewes Gospel If he neglect to heare the church let him bee to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane But Ethnikes by your confession may not bee depriued of their kingdomes ergo neither persons excommunicate Againe your owne lawe graunteth that excommunication dischargeth neither seruauntes children nor wiues from the duetie which they owe to the father of the familie and shall it set free subiectes from a stronger and higher bonde of duetie which God hath more straitly prescribed and inioyned them to the father of their Countrie What wilfull and obstinate blindnesse is this in you that where excommunication is a meere spirituall punishment and reacheth no farther by Gods Lawe than to take from offenders the remission of their sinnes by wanting the worde and Sacramentes vntill they repent you to gratifie the founder of your Rhemish and Romish hospitales stretch it vnto the states Crownes lymmes and liues of Princes and deriue thence not onely the deposing but also the murdering of Christian kinges and Queenes and that by their owne subiectes if hee saie the worde And this you assaie to perswade by corrupting and maintaining the Scriptures bolstering the conspiracies and impieties of your holy father against Princes with an vnshamefast prophaning and adulterating of the worde of truth which is not the least of your irreligious attemptes Resist your places and shewe vs but one halfe worde out of the holie Scripture that Princes may be iudicially deposed by Priestes or that you haue authoritie from Christ to punish such as you excommunicate with externall and temporal paines and losses which is it that you now would faine inferre and for the rest though wee neede not you shall haue our assents Phi. Least any man should thinke this power to bee so meerely spirituall that it might not in any wise be extended to temporall or corporall domage or chastisement of the faithfull in their goods liues possessions or bodies being meere secular thinges and therefore not subiect to their Pastours spirituall or Priestly function it is to bee marked in the holy Apostles first execution of their commissions authority that though their spirituall power immediatly directly concerneth not our temporall affaires yet indirectly and as by accident it doth not only concerne our soules but our bodies goods so farre as is requisite to our soules health and expedient for the good regiment thereof and the churches vtility being subiect to their spirituall Gouernours Theo. It is to be marked that if you may be suffered you will soone chalenge not only spirituall things as your peculiar but euen the goods liues possessions and bodies of the faithfull and as well of Princes as others to be subiect to your tribunals if not directly yet indirectly that is if not by one means yet by an other so far as you thinke it expedient for the regiment health of the soule vtility of the church that shall be far enough I dare vndertake If you affirme this vpon your own credite we little esteeme it your
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be
saluation Your memory did not serue you to ioyn Mattins Euensong and Dirges to your Masse which you might haue doone with as good reason and as much trueth otherwise we had had al the Papists in Christendom promoted by one sentence of your Testament to so suddaine and perfect knowledge that they were able to vnderstand al your Latine seruice That you found would seeme a wonder in the eyes of all men learned and vnlearned and therefore you restraine the vnderstanding first to the Masse then to the ceremonies of the masse then to the sense of these ceremonies as when to stand when to kneele when to confesse when to adore when to come when to depart and all this no farther than may suffice for saluation and not in al of them but almost in euery Catholike or to say the trueth you know not in whom Surely this is a deepe insight that al your Catholikâ— if they be not learned haue in your masse to confesse if they could tell what when they see the Clerk kneele by the Priests side to adore when they see the host and chalice ouer the Priests head to stand when the Priest chaungeth his deske from one end of the altar to an other if they chauÌ„ce too see him to kneele when the sauÌ„ce bel ringeth once a yeare to come to receiue when masse is done and the priest in his Albe at other tunes to depart when he whippeth off his vestiment This is the best cunning that your formallest and forwardest Catholikes haue if they be not learned in the Latine tongue The rude simple people of your side they do as they see their neighbours and that is all the skil they haue in your ceremonies as for answering and saying Amen they must pray for those that can your parish Clerke can keepe his kewe by often vse otherwise neither he nor the most of your Priests vnderstand what they say This is all the edification your masse bringeth to the vnlearned hearers if this suffice for saluation S. Paul was out of the way to prefer fiue words spoken in the church with vnderstanding before ten thousand in a strange and vnknowen language Phi. If the people say Amen it is enough Theo. If they know not what is said they may not say Amen Phi. That is your error Theo. We are content to hold that error so long as we haue the precise words of S. Paul for it How shal he that supplieth the room of the vnlearned say AmeÌ„ seeing he knoweth not what thou saist It is not enough to mark the gestures of him that saith masse nor to heare the saunce bel ring nor to follow the Quire when they sing Amen the people must know what is said before they may giue their consents and therfore except they vnderstand the praiers of the Church well they may kneele and stand come and goe as often as they liâ—t but Amen by S. Pauls Rule they may not answere Phi. They could not in those daies answere Amen so wel as our hearers can for that they had no such rites to direct them when to say Amen as we haue Theo. As though it had beene an hard matter for the Apostle to haue willed the speaker to hold vp his finger or giue some other signe at the end of his praier and all the people to say Amen saue that the holy Ghost would prescribe not gestures for men to gaze at as on stages but words for them to heare and vnderstand that the heart might be ioyned with the lips in praying vnto God and perceiue the trueth of that which was spoken afore the tongue pronounced Amen Phi. I tell you it is not necessarie to vnderstand our praiers Theo. I tell you that if Satan himselfe were clothed in a friers weede he could not lay a fairer foundation for impietie and Apostasie than this is Phi. Neuer think to fray vs with words we be no children nor fooles Theo. If you were your sinne were the lesse but nowe you are without excuse It is the commaundement of God it is the Apostles Doctrine it is our Christian dutie without it the praiers which we make be fruitlesse vaine and barbarous and yet you say it is not necessarie S. Paul hauing prescribed this Rule to the Churches of Corinth that nothing should be doone at their meetings neither in preaching nor praying but that which might profite edifie euen the vulgar and simpler sort addeth If any man think himselfe to be spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the commandements of the Lord. The Ephesians he teacheth to be filled with the spirit and to sing and tune Psalmes in their harts to the Lord. Now the heart doth not sing except it vnderstand For the sound or voice of the hart is vnderstanding as S. Augustine very wel obserueth coÌ„menting vpon the psalmes of Dauid Beatus populus qui intelligit iubilationem Curramus ergo ad hanc beà titudinem intelligamus iubilationeÌ„ non eam sine intellectu fundamus Blessed is the people that vnderstand what they sing Let vs hasten to this blessednes let vs vnderstand what we sing let vs not poure forth songs that we vnderstand not To what purpose is it to sing and not to vnderstand what we sing that our voice should chant it not our heart Sonus enim cordis est intellectus The sounde or tune of the heart is vnderstanding And shewing that this is not only a Christian dutie which is a sufficient necessitie but euen the plain condition of our Creation that wee bee not like the beasts which sing they know not what he saith Hauing besought the Lord by this Psalm that he would clense vs from our secret faults We ought to vnderstand what this meaneth Vt humana ratione non quasi auium voce cantemus that we may sing with reason as men and not chatter like birdes For Owsels Parrets Crowes Pies and such other birds are often taught by men to sound that they know not marie to know what they sing is by Gods wil giuen not to birds but vnto men Therefore deere brethren that which we haue soung with one consent of voice we ought to know perceiue with a cleare heart So Chrysostome I will pray with the spirit saith Paul but I will pray also with vnderstanding I wil sing with the spirite but I wil sing also with vnderstanding Heereby the Apostle teacheth that we ought in our praiers to speake with our tongue and with all to haue our minds vnderstand what is spoken And Ambrose If the end of your meaning be to edifie the Church such things ought to be spoken in your prayers and blessings as the hearers may vnderstand For what profite commeth by thisâ— that any man should speak in a language which he alone vnderstandeth and he that heareth is no whit the better for it Therefore such an