But for that he is not onely a false prophet and a traitor to the truth that teacheth false doctrine but as well he that knoweth the truth and either for feare of death or desire of life wil not expresse the same to the world And for that not onely the author of any euill or mischiefe is giltie of offence before God But also he that might vy discouerie therof preuent the same and yet either will not or for feare of death dares not And for that as the olde prouerbe saith Qui â—acet consentire videtur he that concealeth the truth seemeth to consent to errors for these and the like causes I will laye downe vnto you some such corruptions and abuses as seeme to be inormous and stande in neede of reformation omitting in the meane time to speake perticularly of all for that they be innumerable vntill I see how these fewe will be brouked of them For it is a point of good physicke you knowe to sée how the former meate receiued into the stomacke will be digested and concocted before we receiue anye more into the same Theod. You say very well Giue me leaue then by your patience to aske you such questions as I thinke conuenient for my further instruction that by your good means I knowing the truth may praise God in you and also haue iust occasion to giue you thanks for the same Theod. Aske what you thinke good in Gods â—ame and I will doe the best that I can to resolue you in any thing that you shall demand Theod. Then this shal be my first demand Be the churches congregations assemblies there distincted into particulars as into parishes and precincts one exempt from another or are they dispersed here and there abroad without any order exemption or limitation of place at all Amphil. Euerie particular church congregation assemblie or conuenticle is diuided one from another and distincted into parishes and preâ—incts which seuerall precincts and parishes are so circumâ—ired and limited about with bounds and marks as euerie one is knowne of what parish he is and vnder whose charge he liueth So that euerie shepheard knoweth his flocke euerie pastor his shéepe And againâ— euerie flocke knoweth his shepheard and euerie shéepe his pastor verie orderlie and well in my simple iudgement Theod. Doe you allow then of this partition of churches and of one particular congregation from another Amphil. Yea trulie It is not amisse but a verie good order for thereby euerie pastor doth knowe his owne flocke euery shepheard his owne shéepe which without this diuision could not be Besides that we read that euen in the apostles daies who writ to particular churches themselues as to the Rom. Corint Thes. Phil c. in the daies of Christ in the times of the prophets before Christ churches assemblies and congregations were euer distincted one from another diuided into seueral flocks companies and charges So that although they had not the name of this word parish amongst them yet had the thing ment thereby in effect Theod. Then it followeth by your reason that there are infinite churches in Dnalgne and I haue learned out of the book of God that there is but one true church and faithful spouse of Christ vpon the earth How reconcile you these two places Amphil. Uerie well For although there be infinite particular churches congregations and assemblies in the world yet doe they all make but one true church of God which being diuided in time and place is notwithstanding one church before God being meÌ„bers of the mystical body of Christ Iesus felow members one of another so as they can neuer be diuided neither froÌ„ themselues nor froÌ„ their head Christ. Theod. Who doe you constitute the head of the vniuersall church of Christ vppon earth Christ Iesus the pope or the prince Amphil. Christ Iesus whose the bodie is must néeds â—e is the onely true head of the vniuersall church Then next vnder him euerie christian prince in his kingdom And as for the pope he is head ouer the malignant church the church of the diuel and not of Christ Iesus No he is so far from being head ouer the vniuersal church of Christ that he is no true member of the same but rather the childe of perdition the first borne of satan a diuell incarnate and that man of sin euen Antichrist himselfe that must be destroied with the breath of Gods mouth Theod. By whom be these particular churches and congregatious gouerned and ruled Amphil. By bishops pastors and other inferiour officers Theod. Do you shut out the prince then fâ—ont gouerning the church Amphil. No God forbid For take awayâ— Brachium seculare The lawfull power and gouernement of the temporal magistrate from the regiment of the church and ouerthrow the church altogither And yet notwithstanding the necessitie hereof the dooting anabaptists and brainesicke papists haue most deuilishly denied the same The anabaptists denie most absurdly the authoritie of the magistrate altogither The papists seing themselues conuinced by the manifest worde of GOD denye not their authority absolutely but that their authority extendeth to the gouernement of the church forsooth they vtterly denie hereby exempting themselues and plucking away their neckes from vnder the yooke of christian obedience due vnto migistrates contrarie to the expresse word of our sauiour Christ and his apostles who saith Omnis anima subdita sit potestatibus supereminentibus Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but of God And therefore they are to be obeyed as the ministers of God of all whatsoeuer Theod. Well than I gather thus much that euery king prince or potentate is supreame head next vnder God ouer the church of GOD dispersed through his kingdomes and dominions is not this true Amphil Uerie true And therefore that antichrist of Rome hath plaide the traitor a long while both to Christ Iesus and all christian kings in arrogating and vsurping to be supreame head ouer all the world Whereas indeed he being a greasie priest smered prelate hath no more authority than other oiled shauelings haue nor so much neither and yet that authoritie is but ouer the maligant church of antichrist and not of Christ Iesus I beseech the Lord therefore to breake of that power to grind in peces that stumbling blocke of offence and to wipe off the heads of that monstrous hidra so as neuer any mo may growe thereof againe Theod. Seeing you say that euerie prince is supreame head ouer the church of God within his dominions what authoritie therfore assign you to the prince to execute in the church Amphil. It is the office and dutie of a prince not only to see elected sent forth called good able sufficient pastours for the instruction of the church but also to see that good orders constitutions rites be established and duely performed that the worde be preached the sacraments truely ministred excommunication discipline and
true repentance for his sinnes to fore committed liue for euer in ioye both of body soule whereas if exhortations had not bin he might happily haue died irrepentant or vtterly desperate to his euerlasting destruction for euer Yea it is coÌ„monly seene that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus all the daies of their life before yet at the last howre they are soone recouered Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein but warely and carefully to watche ouer their flocks night and day without ceasing that wheÌ„ the great shephard of the sheepe commeth he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory And thus much be it spoken hereof Theod. In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops Amphil. I tolde you before as I remember that the church might examine the life the conuersation and disposition of him or them whome they would haue to be their pastor and finding the same good to present him or them to the bishops or elders to whome it apperteineth to examine for his sufficiencie in knowledge and dexteritie in teaching and handling the word of God and finding him a man furnished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation to call him lawfullie according to the word of God and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest as a faithfull laborer therein Theod. But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute and plenarie power ought to choose their pastor and not bishops Ampil The churches haue no further power in the election of their pastor than as I haue told you that is to iudge of his conuersation integritie of life referring the whole action besides to the bishops and elders For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely besides that it would bréed confusion for some would choose one some another some this and some that neuer contenting theÌ„selues with any the church should doe that also which were directly contrarie to the word of God For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor to choose him to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word obseruing all kinde of rites ceremonies orders belonging thereto Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation presented theÌ„ to the apostles And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do represent lay their hands vpon them approue them after triall had of their sufficiencie in knowledge and sent them forth into the Lords vineyard The churches laid not their hands vpon them or as some call it consecrated them not nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the election of them as the apostles did But as I grant that the church for som cause and in soâ— respects is not to be excluded froÌ„ a consultatiue voyce as before or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plenarie power cal their pastor all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued for that is to be don and executed of the bishops elders and not of the churches consisting of lay men and for the most part rude and vnlearned Theod. What say you to a seigniorie or eldership were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y e same were established in euery congregation as it was in y e apostles daies Amphil. The seueral estates and conditions of the apostolicall churches and of ours al circumstances duly considered are diuers and much different one from another and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull The churches then wanted christian princes and magistrates to gouerne the same and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church But God be thanked we haue most christian kings priâ—ces and gouernors to rule and gouerne the church therfore we stand in lesse néed of the other And yet notwithstanding I grant that a seigniorie in euery congregation were to be wished if it could be brought to passe yet cannot I perceiue but that it would rather bring confusion than reformation considering the state of the church at this day For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined we read not of any shires dioces or precincts where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement as now they doe and therefore there being neither bishops ecclesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates as we haue now it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined But now we hauing al these things stand not in such necessitie of them as the churches in the apostles daies did Besides the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall and temporall and therefore not to continue alwaies neither ought the necessitie thereof to binde all churches Neither doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouernement but that euery church may alter and change the same according to the time and present state therof as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God and the common peace of the church Theod. What say you to deacons Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day Amphil. Their office which was to make collections for the poore to gather the beneuolencies and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue and to sée the same bestoed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church is very necessarie and without doubt ought to be continued for euer But yet is not the church tied to their names onely but to their office Which office is executed by honest substantiall men called Churchwardens or the like chosen by the consent of the whole congregation to the same end and purpose who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches bestow or sée the same bestowed vpon the poore and indigent of the same church which was the greatest part of the deacons duties in the apostles daies So that albeit wee haue not the name we yet hold their office in substance and effect Theod. What is your iudgement ought there to be any bishops in the churches of christians Amphil. To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chrâ—stians is to doubt of the truth it selfe For is there not mention made of their names dignities functions and callings almost in euery chapter of the new testament in all the epistles of Paule of Peter of Iohn of Iude and of all the rest Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders and doe they not woonderfully commende the
of apples as Master Latimer talketh of with thirty angels in euery apple thogh he be neuer so learned a man I warrant him he gets nothing But if he can get a graffe of this tree loden with such golden apples it will serue him better then all Saint Paules learning For these and the like abuses infinite if the patronages were taken away from them that now enioy them nay that make haâ—ocke of them and either to rest in the right of the Prince as they ought or else in the right of the churches who will not be corrupted it were a great deale better than nowe they bee For now the poore pastours are so handled at the hands of their patrones that they neyther haue mony to buy them bookes withall nor which is lesse not to maintaine themselues vppon though but meanelye but are manye times constrained either to wander abroad to séeke their liuings or els to take vp their Inne in an alehouse or in some od corner or other to the great discredite of the gospell of Christ and offence of the godlie This argueth flatly that we loue not Christ Iesus who make so little of his messengers and ambassadors He that despiseth you despiseth me and he that receaueth and maketh much of you he receiueth me and maketh much of me saith Christ. The beathen gentils and pagans prouide better for their idolatrous priests then we do for the true preachers of the gospell and disclosers of the secrets of God For when the Egyptians were sore pooled of Pharao the priests by his commandement were excepted and permitied to haue all necessarie maintenance whatsoeuer But we are of another mind for we think whatsoeuer we get of theÌ„ is won it is our own good whereas in truth what we withdrawe from theÌ„ prouided that they be diligent preachers of the pospell we withdraw it froÌ„ God and ferrie it to the deuil But hereof more shal be spoken Christ willing hereafter when we come to this question whether it be lawful for preachers and ministers of the Gospell to receiue wages and stipends for preaching of the worde Theod. By what law may a minister of the Gospell make claime to tithes and other profits emoluments duties and commodities belonging to him by y e law of God or of man Amphil. God in the law of Moses gaue speciall commnandement that tithes and other oblations commodities and profits should be giuen to the priests to the end that they might attend vpon the diuine seruice of God and not busie themselues in worldly affaires which ordinance or fanction being méere ceremonial is now fully abrogate by Christ for in him the truth al ceremonies shadowes types figures ceased toke their end And therfore cannot a preacher of the Gospel claime his tithes by the lawe of Moses but by the positiue lawes of Christian princes which are to be obeied in all things not directly against true godlinesse vpon paine of damnation Theod. Are tithes then due to be paid by the positiue law of man and not by the lawe of God Amphil. Yea truly by the positiue lawe of man which godlie constitution is now no lesse to be obeied vnder the Gospel being commanded by a christian prince than the â—iuine institution was to be obeied vnder the law And although tithes bee due by the positiue lawes of man yet are the same grouÌ„ded vpon the word of God and commanded as well by God as by man And therefore he that breaketh this ordinance being an excellent policie violateth the commandements of God and breketh the constitution of his liege prince to his damnation except he repent Theod. Must euerie one pay his tithes truely to euery pastor whether he be ought or naught learned or vnlearned without any exception or may he deteine it with good conscience from him that is an vnfit and vnable minister Amphil. If he be a good pastor and diligent in his calling and withal able to discharge the dutie of a faithful shepheard ouer his flock then ought he to haue al tithes paid him whatsoeuer with the better and if any should withhold the lest mite from him he sinneth against the maiestie of God most gréeuously And although he be a wicked man and not able to discharge his dutie though but in small measure yet ought euerie man to pay him his due faithfully and truly For in denieng him his dutie they might séeme to withstande authoritie which they ought not to doe In the meane time giuing themselues to praier and suing to them that haue the authoritie for his displacing and placing of another that is more able in some measure to discharge the dutie of a faithfull pastor Notwithstanding I know some are of opinion that if any man giue either tithes or anie dutie else to their pastor being an vnfit and an vnable person he is partaker with him of his sinne he communicateth with other mens offences and he maintaineth him in his idlenesse sloth ignorance and securitie and therefore offendeth gréeuously But I am of opinion that euerye man ought to pay their dutie for else he might séeme as I said to resist the power if he be not able to discharge his dutie to pray for his remoouing and to make instance to them that are in authoritie appointed for the redresse of such inormities for his displacing and so not to attempt any thing without good and lawfull authoritie grounded vpon the word for the same Theod. May a pastor that hath a charge and a flocke assigned him to watch ouer hauing maintainable liuing allowed him of his flock preach in other places for monie Amphil. Hee may sometimes obteining licence for some reasonable cause of his owne flocke preach the word of God abroad in other places but then he ought to doe it gratis coâ—tenting himselfe with the liuing allowed him at home of his owne parish Notwithstanding if the other churches where he shall haue preached will voluntarily impart any thing to the supplie of his necessities in respect of his pains taking he may thankfully receiue the â—ame but he may not compell nor constraine them to giue it him whether they will or not against their wils as manie impudently doâ—e Theod. Then I perceiue if it be not lawfull for a pastor that hath a flocke and a stipend appointed him to receiue monie vppon constraint of strangers for preaching the worde abroad in other places then is it not lawfull for him to take monie in his cure for preaching funerall sermons marriage sermons christening sermons and the like as many do What say you to this Amphil. There are manie woorthie of great blame in this respect For though they recâ—iue fortie pound a hundred pound or two hundred pound a yéere of some one parish yet will they hardly preach once a moneth nay happily not once in a quarter of a yéere and sometimes not once a twelue moneth for the same And if a man request them to preach at a burial a
bishops are most necessarie and that they may also lawfully hold superioritie ouer their brethren in respect of gouernement regiment or authoritie being giuen them of the prince what say you then to this Whether may a bishop be called by the name of an archbishop metropolitane primate or by the name of my Lord bishop my Lords grace the right honourable and the like or not For me thinke these titles and names are rather peculiar to the temporaltie than to them do sauour of vainglorie and worldly pompe rather than of any thing else And which is more me thinke they are against the expresse word of God Wherefore I couet greatly to heare your iudgement thereof Amphil. These names and titles may séeme to sauour of vaineglorie indéed if they should arrogate them to themselues Iure diuino as they doe not But if you wil consider by whom they were giuen them and how they doe require them you wil not thinke it much amisse nor farre discrepant from the sinceritie of the Gospell First therefore note that they were giuen them by christian princes to dignifie to innoble to decore and to set foorth the dignitie the excellencie and worthines of their callings Secondly let them note that they require them as due vnto them by the donation and gifture of men and not Iure diuino and therefore being giuen them for the causes aforesaid by christian kings and princes they may in that respect hold them still without any offence to the diuine goodnesse or his faithfull spouse vpon the earth But if they shuld claime them as due vnto them by the lawe of God as they doe not then should they offend For our sauiour Christ seeing his disciples and apostles ambiciously to affect the same vaineglorious titles and names set before them the example of the heathen kings thereby the rather to withdrawe them from their vaine humour saieng Reges gentium dominantur eis c. The kings of the gentils beare rule ouer them and those that exercise authoritie ouer them be called gratious Lords but Vos autem non sic You shall not be so In the which words he vtterly denieth them and in them all others to the worlds end that in the same office and function of life should succeed them the titles of Lords graces or the like The apostle also biddeth them to beware that they challenge not those vaine titles to themselues by the lawe of God when he saith speaking to bishops and pastors Be not Lords ouer your flocks c. By these and manie other the like places of holie writt it is cleare that they cannot arrogate these names or titles to themselues by y e word of God neyther doe they but as I haue said by the donation the beneuolence and gifture of christian Princes for the reuerent estimati they bare and ought to beare to their high function and calling in that they are his Liefetenants his vicegerents in his Church his messengers his Ambassadors the disclosers and proclaimers of his secretes and his Aungels for so are they called in the scriptures therfore in respecte of the excellencie hereof these names were giuen and attributed vnto them And truely to speake my simple iudgement I sée not but that these names doe dignifie their callinges shewe forth the maiestie thereof and des moue the Churches to haue the same high calling in more reuerence honor than otherwise they would if they were called by bare naked names onelie But notwithstanding either this that hath béene saide or anie thinge els that can be said herein there are some waiward spirits lately reuiued who held the same names to be méere Antichristian blasphemous and wicked and suche as at anie hande a Minister of the Gospell ought not to bee called by But whereas they holde them to bée Antichristian I holde them to be Christian names and geuen by Christian Princes to the innobling and garnishing of their offices functions and callinges which doubtlesse is a glorie to God denie it who will or who can And therefore in conclusion I say that Byshops though not by the lawe of God yet by the positiue law donation and gifture of Christian Princes maye lawfully assume the saide titles and names to them for the causes before cited And therefore these names and titles béeing meere indifferent and not derogating from the glorie of God but rather making for the same they are not of anye wise sober or faythfull Christian neyther to bee inueighed against nor yet to bee in anye respecte dislyked beeing vsed as before And thus much of the names and titles of Byshops Theodo Maye Byshops exercise temporall authoritie together with Ecclesiasticall and maye they bee Iustices of peace Iustices of Quorum Iustices of Assises Ewer Determiner and the lyke or maye they as Capytall Iudges geue desinytiue sentence of lyfe and death vpon malefactors and others that by the iudiciall lawe of man haue deserued to dye Amphil. There is neither of the callings temporall nor ecclesiasticall but it requireth a whole and perfect man to execute the same And if there were neuer founde any one man yet so perfect as could throughly and absolutlie performe his office in either of the callings temporall or ecclesiastical much lesse can there euer one man be found that is able to discharg them both It is hard therefore that these two callings should concurre in one man This is as though a man hauing an importable burthen alreadie vpon his backe should yet haue an other almost as burthenous vrged vppon him And therefore as it were absurde to see a temporall magistrate mount into the pulpit preach the worde and minister the sacraments so absurde it is to see an ecclesiasticall magistrate exercise the authoritie temporall and to giue sentence condemnatorie of life death vpon any criminous person which properlie â—elongeth to the temporall power Besids it is a great discredite to the temporall magistrate because it may be thought that they are not wise nor politique inough to execute their office nor discharge their duties without the aide and assistance of the other And which is more it hindereth them from the discharge of their duties in their owne calling for it is written no man can serue two masters but either he must betraie the one or the other When the woman taken in adultery was apprehended and brought vnto Christ he refused to giue iudgement of hir and yet it was a matter in effect ecclesiasticall appertained to an ecclesiasticall iudge Then what ought they to do in matters meere ciuil Againe our sauior Christ when the yong man requested him to deuide the inheritance betwixt his brother him refused the same saieng Quis me constituit iudicem inter vos Who made me a iudge or a deuider betwixt you Whereby appeareth how farre ecclesiasticall persons ought to bee froÌ„ hauing to doe with temporal matters But whereas they say the bishops of Dnalgne do exercise temporall authoritie and