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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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of the very mouth of God himselfe And if Christ saide he came into the world not to d●stroy the law but to fulfill it by what right can the Pope who deriueth his authoritie from Christ as his substitute and deputy in the earth claime the authoritie to make that voide which God hath ordained And faine would I know of you what faultes you finde in the word of GOD that subiectes may reuolt from their Prince and take them to another And I am sure you cannot name me one for doubtlesse there can be noe greater faultes in a Prince then Idolatry and tyranny and yet wee haue expresse commaundementes of GOD from his owne mouth vnto the people of Israell for to bee obedient vnto two notorious Idolaters and triumphes An obiection of controuersie with the wicked a●swered the one by the Prophet Ieremy Chap. 27. that they should serue Nabuchadonisor the other by Christ himself that they should pay tribute vnto Cesar But ye will say that Christ saide if thy brother will not heare the Church let him bee vnto thee as an Ethnicke and Publicane or customer and that we are commaunded by Paule not to keepe company with the wicken and by Saint Iohn not to say good morrow to an heretike And now I would fayne know of you howe the Iewes did shunne an Ethnike and a publicane did they not pay tributes and customes vnto ethnike Emperours did they they not serue them in warre finally did they not doe all dueties of loyall subiectes did they not also come vnto the publicans to pay their customs and towlles although they were nor familiar with them did vsually keepe them company Againe when Sant Paule did charge the Corinthians not to keepe company with a brother that was a whoorhunter or couetous or an idolatour or euill tongued or a dunkard or a violent taker away of other mens goods and not to eate meate with any such Doe you thinke the wife that had an husband the childe a father the bondmand a Lord or master infected with any of these faultes were thereby incontinently discharged of all duety towardes them yea and bound in conscience speedily to runne away from them and neuer to doe them more seruice nor come at them I am sure ye will say no for by the canon law they are bound to abide with them being excommunicated for any other faulte then for heresy And that is a latter edition of the Popes for there is no such distinction to be found in the cōmandement of God nor his Apostles But all excommunicated and wicked persons are alike commaunded to be shunned and no difference to be put betweene the Idolater and the whooremonger So then if Christ and his Apostles did not discharge the wife the childe or bondman of their dueties towardes the excommunicated neyther did they also the subiectes of their alleageance to their prince for they be as fast tyed to their prince by a bond and lawe which onely death can vndoe as the wife is to hir husband and therefore included in this word Lex of the canonicall verse that shewes who may communicate with excommunicated persons Vtile lex humile res ignorata necesse and also aswell vnder and subiected to their soueraigne as the childe vnto his father and the bondman vnto his Lord and master and so are comprised also in the word humile of the same verse But let vs returne where we left The Pope deposed Boleslaw the king of Polen for slaying in his rage Stanislaw the Bishop of Craccow yet when Saule had without cause vniustly and tyrannically slayne Achimelech the high priest and all his whole house saue one that fortunately escaped yea priestes in number fourescore and seuen all the men women little children sucking babes oxen asses and sheepe that were in the Citie of the priestes called Nob Yet Dauid whom God had annointed king and Saul did causelesse cruelly persecute from place to place sought by all meanes to bereaue of life yet thought not himselfe discharged of his allegeance by this detestable murder of the sacred priestes of God but when hee had him twise at aduantage saued his life and tolde Abisri who desired him to dispatch the tyrante with one blowe slewe him not for who shall stretch foorth his hande against the annoynted of the Lorde and shall be innocent As sure as the Lord liueth vnlesse the Lorde shall strike him or his day shall come that he die or perish in sight God neuer be mercifull vnto me if I doe stretch forth mine hande against the annoynted of the Lorde Yee see heere a playne assertion of Dauid that subiectes are not released of their alleageance if that their princes fall to vngodlinesse and tyranny much lesse doth he allowe that euerie priuate man murder him shamefullie yea when a younge man brought Dauid newes of Saules death and presented him with Saules diademe and bracelette Dauid put him to death because he had tolde him that at the Kinges great instance and entreatie that he might not fall into the handes of his enemies who enuironed him rounde about hee beeing no Israelite but an Amalachite had killed him saying why didst thou not feare to sende thy hande that thou mightest kill the annoynted of the Lorde And againe the bloode be vpon thy heade for thy mouth hath spoken against thee saying I haue slaine the annoynted of the Lord. Wherefore seeing Dauid doth allowe no cause of reuoulte and doth thinke that the subiectes are loosed of their alleageance by no fault and wickednesse of their prince by what warrant of the worde can the Pope at his pleasure release subiectes of their alleageance And whereas we reade in the 34 of Iob that GOD doth make the hypocrite man to raigne for the sinnes of the people or as other translate it to afflict and plauge the people what a malapart parte is it of the Pope to pull the rodde out of Gods hande by violence and to chase him away whome God hath specially sente to chastice his people Neyther haue I sucked this sentence out of mine owne fingers endes but learned it of a learned greate Pope Gregorie the greate who interpreting in his moralles the late rehearsed place of Iob and alleadging vnto it the thirteenth of Osee I will giue Kinges in my furie hath these wordes Quid ergo illos nobis praesse despicimus quorum super nos regimina ex Domini furore suscepimus Why then doe we despise them to be our princes whose raignes and gouermentes ouer vs wee haue receiued from the wrath of GOD So that the Pope may not displace the good princes because they are good princes nor the euill because they are placed by GOD to punish his people And if the Canonistes holde that no man can iudge the Pope because he sitteth in the chiefest chaire Who then shall iudge the king who is saide in 2. Paralip 9. to be ordained of God to set vpon his owne throne and shall
although he write very directly against the Pope popery yet in many respects doth he shew himself a papist as in following of corrupt translations in the places of scripture which he alledgeth in misapplying many of them contrary to the true sense meaning of the holy Ghost wherein although some warni●g is giuen by a few marginall notes added of purpose and signed wit● this letter yet cannot the godly reader for all that be too wearie and circumspect in the particular consideration of the same Faults escaped Pag. 2. for euery read euery Pag. 3. for iu read ni Pa. 4. for Iunius read Fumus Pag 7. for 〈…〉 A COVRTEOVS conference with the English Catholicks Romane about the six Articles ministred vnto the Seminarie priestes wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie and the principles of their owne religi●n that the Pope cannot depos● her Maiesty or relea●e her subiects of their Allegiance vnto her NOw then to proue my first proposition that the Pope and all the Bishoppes and Priestes are subiect by the law of God vnto the temporall magistr●te All persons subiect to the temporal magistrat in whose realme and dominions they doe dwell thus I prooue Salomon Prou. 24. saith my sonne feare the Lord and King and intermeddle not or be not among detractors for their distruction wil arise sodainly and who knoweth the ruine of them both Likewise Saint Paul the Apostle in his writing to the Romaines thus exhorteth or rather commandeth them Chap. 13. Let euery soule be subiect to the higher power for there is noe power but from God but those which are were ordained by God c. So then he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God but they which doe resist do get themselues dānation for princes be no feare of good worke but of il but wilt thou not feare the power doe well and then shalt thou haue praise thereby for he is the minister of God vnto thee to good but if thou haue done ill then feare for he beareth not the sword without cause he is the minister of God a reuenger in wrath to him that doth ill And therfore ye must needes be subiect not onely for wrath but also for conscience for therefore doe yea also pay tribute for they are the ministers of God seruing for this very purpose Also in his epistle to Titus Cap. 3. he writes warne them to be subiect to principalities powers to obey their commandements Moreouer S. Pet●r from whom the Pope clameth his mo●arc●● thus writeth in his first vniuersall epistle Cap. 2. Be ye ●ub ect to euery humain creature for the Lord whether it be 〈…〉 most excellent or vnto the presidents as sent 〈◊〉 him to the reuenge of euil deedes but to the praise of 〈◊〉 good because so is the will of God that ye doing well ●ay make m●re the ignorance of the vnskilfull as free men 〈…〉 as men that haue libertie for a cloake of naughtinesse but a● the bondmen of God and anone after feare God and honour the King Ye do see how the old and new law doe agree in the supreeme authoritie of princes ouer all persons borne or abiding within their dominions Paul vsing this vniuersall euery excepting none and Salomon and Peter an indefinite in this place equall vnto an vniuersall And Peter and Paul doe in expresse wordes giue vnto him the supreeme Emp●re of administring iustice in punishing the wicked rewarding the good and that he is so the Apostle doth proue by that ●ll men pay him tribute the which also he commandeth to be paide and also chargeth all men to be obedient vnto him and not for feare onely lest otherwise the prince would make them smart but also for cōscience sake because the● are in duety bound so to do for that God had ordained them to be his lieuetenants in gouernement And therefore if they were not obedient vnto them they must needs be accounted reputed for rebels vnto God that would not accept him for their soueraigne whom God had set ouer them And Peter to suppres the carnal cogitation of the Iewes vnto whom he wrot that thought that the messias had enfranchised them by his redēption from al subiection to man also to preuēt the proud opinion of the clergy that should come after who would clame exemption from earthly subiection because they were appointed ordained dispensers of the misteries of the Messias he flatly affirmeth the claming of such libertie to be nothing else put a plaine pretence cloake for their naughtinesse For he would they shoulde remēber that although they were deliuered by Christ from the bondage tiranny of sin death the Deuill yet they remained still his his fathers bondmen therfore ought duetifully to obey still the ciuill magistrats whom God hath placed in his owne throne his king his lieuetenant ouer them And therefore Salomon in the place afore alleadged An appellation in secular causes cannot be made to the Pope ioyneth them together saying feare God and the King God principally saith Lyra writing on that place and secundarily the King who is his Vicar in temporall things This being so I cannot chuse but much maruaile at that saying in Cap. Licet de sor comp that an appellation may be made from all princes temporall Yea such as do acknowledge no superiour in temporalities when none other can be had and the matter is of som weight For if as Tertullian saith in his Apologie that there is no man aboue the Emperour et quem soli Deo subiicio and whome I make vnder none but God in annother place of the same Apologie he saith of the Emperours of Rome in Dei solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes et super omnes deos quid in cum super omnes homines they are vnder God only vnto whom they are seconde after whom they are first before all men and aboue all gods and why not seeing they are aboue all men And againe if it be true that the graue and learned light of our Lawiers Bracton that liued almost foure hundreth yeares agoe in the raigne of Henry the thirde doth affirme in the beginning of his booke that a King cannot be a King if he haue any superiour in those things that doe appertaine vnto his crowne and kingdome and may not haue in his kingdome any equall much lesse any superiour especially in administration of iustice that it may be saide of him Great is our Lorde greate is his power c. And that he doth aff●irme him to be the vicar of God on earth This place Psal 14● 5 〈…〉 o●●od I can not see by what right or reason an appellation in a secular cause can be made from an Emperour King or any supreame temporall magistrate vnto the Pope seeing he is not theire superiour in temporalities For all the worlde knoweth that an