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A93883 An Ansvver to a libell intituled, A coole conference betweene the cleered Reformation and the apologeticall narration; brought together by a wel-willer to both; wherein are cleerely refuted what ever he bringeth against the Reformation cleared, most humbly submitted to the judgement of the honourable Houses of Parliament, the most learned and reverend divines of the assembly, and all the reformed churches. By Adam Steuart. Steuart, Adam. 1644 (1644) Wing S5489; Thomason E43_4; ESTC R11438 39,008 70

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shall he not be excommunicated for it shall his ignorance excuse him is not his ignorance a sin and especially when it is concomitant or subsequent to some other sinne or action of the will when he has procured it to himselfe or when he used not morall diligence enough to chase it away shall or can the ignorance of the Law or of his duty which hee is bound to know excuse him or free him from excommunication Is not that Socinianisme Arminianisme judge ye Master Doctor and answer not with complaints lamentable Interjections as if you would rather be pitied then bound to prove any thing ye say pay us not with generalities and Individuum vagums but signatums Answer I pray you to the point All the authority that this Master Doctor Well-willer can bring for himselfe p. 11. and 12. is a Morellus and some other excommunicated Ministers in France which yet he hath borrowed from the cleared Reformation As for that which he saith p. 13. § 2. that a Bishop is a Presbytery contracted and a Presbytery a Bishop diffused 1. It is but one of the Separatists ordinary jeeres against Presbyterian Government 2. They prove it not 3. The Commissioners answer it p. 25. 4. And if it were so yet Presbyterian Aristocracie should bee admitted since it is Gods ordinance but nor Episcopacy since it is not Gods ordinance 5. Amongst the Helvetians if one man should goe and contrive into his owne person all the authority which is diffused amongst all the Rulers there thinke you that they would endure him or rather not put him to death as a Tyrant and a Traytor according to his demerits The very contrivance of authority into one person which God hath diffused in many is unjust and tyrannicall in Gods Church But the Doctor objecteth that in forbearing Excommunication I beleeve he understandeth the greater they leave more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterie doth Answ This the Doctor saith but proveth it not and therefore we deny it with the like facility that he propoundeth it our reason is because when a man is excommunicated the Civill Magistrate ceaseth not for all that to punish him civilly for the Presbyterie by excommunication exileth or casteth him out of the Church society notwithstanding which he remaineth in the State society and if his sinne be against the State and deserve it the Magistrate may exile him and cast him out of the State society or of the Kingdome but not out of the Church no more then the Church may cast him out of the Kingdom As for your comparisons in saying that it is not an English heart that speaketh so it is but a sophisticall evasion seditiously to clude their argument whereunto you cannot bring so much as a probable solution so you grant what they say Neither is our dispute here about English Scots or French but about Christian hearts and consciences It is a shame to an English man to be Author of Schisme in his owne Country when Strangers imploy all their endeavours for union and peace both in Church and Common-wealth But this I leave and pray you to tell us what ye give more to the Civill Magistrate then we whether it be an Ecclesiasticall or Civill power and wherein whether to judge in matter of Doctrine or Discipline Remember Sir that in speaking of New England P. 8. you give them nothing else but Gods word for Church Government and the Kings patent for what they did in Policie and tell us if ever they followed the Kings or his Councels directions in Church Policie Item tell us whether it is the Civill Magistrate or the Church Officers part to erect Church Government and to make the Lawes thereof to judge according to the same and to put them in execution c Here he telleth us also or objecteth that Excommunication hath need of better grounds then mens sinning of simplicity or ignorance Answ So the ignorance of Jesus Christ and denying of his merits should not incur the sentence of Excommunication Hee objecteth that the punishment of Excommunication for small faults will make the punishment at last small in the eyes of men Answ It is true but is it the doctrine of the Reformed Churches that it should be inflicted for small faults But to cleare more this matter two things are needfull to be expounded the first is what the Independents understand by great sinnes the second what they understand by the parties knowne light thirdly what by Christianity fourthly what by common received practices of Christianity fiftly what by the Church As for the first a sinne may be great either quoad essentiam or quoad entitatem according to its essence or entity or as it were its quantity That sinne is said to be greater then another according to its essence the species whereof degenerateth most from the divine Rule of Gods Law such as be the sins that are greatest in regard of their object so it is a greater sinne to offend God then man because it includeth in it selfe a greater objective deformity then the other But a sinne is greater then another according to its entity or quantity that has greater extension intension or duration i. e. more parts more degrees and of a longer continuance then another By extension or more parts I understand either objective or formall parts viz. when a sinne is committed against more persons as the sinne committed against twenty is greater then that committed against two or has more materiall objects as when one stealeth more money viz. two pound it is a greater finne then to steale two pence So it is a greater sinne in respect of the formall perts or acts wherein formally sin consifteth if they be taken in concreto when a man returneth oftentimes to the same sinne as hee who stealeth ten times is a farre greater sinner then he that stealeth but only once In respect of the intention or degrees of sinne that sinne is greater then another wherein there be more degrees as when it is committed more willingly with greaterliberty with greater violence with greater knowledge Item by him that hath greater helpes of grace or of nature to resist it and to produce the opposite effects of vertue Finally that sin is greater then another in duration that continueth longer So a sin may be greater then another quoad essentiam and lesse quoadentitatem or essentially greater but entitatively or in quantity lesse then another and on the contrary greater then another quoad entitatem or in regard of its quantity but not greater essentially For example if a man sin against the precepts of the first Table in not loving God with all his heart be sory therefore and against his Father not onely in not loving him as himselfe but also in abusing him willingly and offering him violence without any remorse of conscience the first sinne is greater essentialiter but the last is greater entitativè so some Schoolemen say that faith is more certaine then any