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A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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justice of their cause are guilty before God os Treason Murder and Rebellion Dub. This censure is very severe and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Common-wealth much desired a reformation of them and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament whereupon such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires and great expectations in the minds of men that are of short discourse that these poor inconsiderable persons were engaged against King and Country before they had well weighed That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions That God has no need of the sinner That we must not do evil that good may come thereon But I am perswaded that these seduced men do see their former errors and are ●ruly penitent abominating from their hearts all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practises Firm. I much commend you for your Chari●y and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion acd are no● truly penitent my hearty prayers are that the Lord would be merciful unto them and bless them and shew them the light of his countenance My severe censure as you were p●●ased ●o ●ail it was never intended against such but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance for their lifting up their hands against the Lord 's Anointed rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majestie that now swayes the Royal Scepter if they hid a fair opportunity Disobedience is a long step to Rebellion and is it not evident that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient more refractory against his Majesties Laws Ecclesiastical then those that lived before the late warrs who though they were Non-conformists yet were they not Separatists Brownists as our present Non-conformists for the most part are some of them Mr. as Ball in his Tryal of the grounds of Separation and others smartly wri●ng against such Fanati●ks And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men they might see by a wonderful providence the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertakings How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing ho● miraculously was our Gratious Soveraign preserved against all their Treasonable attempts and brought to the Throne of his Fathers with the greatest honor most general expressions of love and rejoycing that ever any Prince received from ●oyal Subjects and all this without the spil●ing of one drop of blood The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People to keep this sign●l dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance not to ruine thēselves by Atheism Irreligion Profaneness or any enormous wickedness for which the wrath of God has b●en pou●ed out in full Viols upon wicked Kings and ungodly people as Sacred and other ●i●●ories do s●sficiently manifest Dub. It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamsters that having a bad game dealt them desire the Cards might be shuffl'd again that they might have a better Stock but I am perswaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoyn'd Firm. You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies as to the Covenant tho it h●s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had dyed without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenunti●tion yet being it was peccant in all the four causes the Efficient Formal Material and Final 't was expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince besides there seems to be a signal judgment in it that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaleers out of their Livings should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and ●igid Imposers of it for many of those were undon because they would not take it these because they would not Renounce it Nec lex est justior ulla Quam necis artifices arte perire sua 'T is Justice Law that he should feel the smart Who was first Author of that cruel Art I remember what Tacitus sayes of Cajus Vibius Eò immitior quia toleraverat And 't is like that the Cavileers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant would when power was in their hands make use of the Law of Retaliation by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity how ever 't is a remarkable peice of Divine Providence that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy should suffer by it without mercy Dub. But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them as to act by the Law of Retaliation of Spite and Revenge there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected Firm. We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it as to make tryal who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects who not for as 't was said before he that conceives himself bound by the Scotc●-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace I hartily wish that 't were not prest upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion that so we that have one Faith one Baptisme one Hope one Lord Iesus Christ one God the Father of all might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace which is both our duty and our interest if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys Dub. 'T is not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among our selves would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State who le●ve no Stone unturn'd to divide us that they might Reign over us and perswade us by their most cogent Arguments which are Gun-Powder Fire and Fagot Bloody Massacres to embrace their gross Superstition and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better imploy'd in devout Prayer Holy Meditation in Mortification of our Corruptions in duties of Piety towards Almighty God of Love Mercy and Charity one towards another And now Sir give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgments for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks and Bogs of Atheisme Infidelity Schisme and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Engl●nd in whose Faith and Communion Thou O Father of Mercies Prince of Peace and God of all Consolation ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity ● grant that I may continue unto ●y Lives end and that I may so continue I beg your daily Prayers Firm. 'T is our great Christian duty to Pray one for another I shall not be wanting in the performance of it for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholick Christianity and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions and supplications at the Throne of Grace Blessed be the God of all power and wisdome who has thus prosper'd my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your waies I will ad no more but this that you be true to the Doctrine Worship Discipline of our Church as they are contain'd in the Articles Liturgie Canons and Rubricks of it hold not any truth in Unrighteousness let your practise shew to the World that you truly and heartily believe what you profess be honest just in your Dealings towards men Temperate and Sober towards your selfe serious and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God and whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are true whatsoever things are just Holy Lovely of good report Think on these things Practise these things make not the actions of men the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times humane Laws your rule to walk by but let the holy will and word of God be the adequate measure of your Life and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule and Peace and Mercy shalll be upon you as a true Israelite and one of Gods Peculiar People Amen FINIS ERRATA PAge 9. l. 11. read Dependent p. 12. l. 10. for puting r. putting p. 21. for their r. there p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes p. 70 l. 26. ● some of the Church p. 83. l. 12. for suspition r. superstition p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse is misplaced p. 113. ●r ● ●ot ●ankfulness p. 116.25 r. licence p. 119. l. 22. r. clear p. 121. l. 25. ● who was of p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well p. 129. l. 13. r. stiled p. 132. l 29. r. that sit at the Stern p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end p. 136. l. ● r. throw away p. 138. l. 19. r. by phansies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance p. 155. l. 15. r. ●●t●rio●sly ibid. 2● 1 suspension p. 1●5 l. ●3 r. suspensions † Dr. Moors Antidote and Dr. Stillings●eets Orig. Sacrae p●g 395. R. B. C●●visse videas crescere non vides see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith Cen●●l 〈◊〉 S●ss 12. C●n. 1. Non imagini s●d numini sacrificamus Ae Mr Fowes History 2 Cor. 10.4 Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2 Rom. 13.1 Pet. 2. Ier. 4.2 Deut. 6.13 Heb. 6.16 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6 1 Cor. 1.14 Act. 2. Math. 28. 1. Cor. 9. ●po● 2.3 † 'T was not long since that some of the Presbyterian a●d I●pendent perswasion were Deans and Ca●ons of Christ Church in Oxford such D●gnities not then thought to be useless and A●●i-christian why should they be esteemed so now
now it is and those scandals and reproaches which are so frequently cast upon Cathedrals more rationally be confuted Firm. I much approve of what you say for the Non-residency of Bishops Deans and Canons and the remote Vicaridges of Vicars Choral from their respective Cathedrals is the just occasion that the service of God is very perfunctorily performed to the great scandal of the Goverment of the Church which we can look upon as a grieveance but 't is only in the power of King and Parliament to redress Dub. The Lord put it into their hearts to undertake so good and pious a work ●et me now hear what you can answer to what is objected against the Lives a●e Conversations of Vicars Choral Petty Canons Singing-men as they are setled in some Cathedrals Eiru● My answer is That the charge is too general and favours of want of Charity That some of them may be such whose conversation is not so commendable as it should be or that they have not that sense and relish of ●eligion which ought to be in men of that Place and Calling I fear may too justly be charged upon them but much of this dirt might be wiped off by the constant Residence grave Example and strict Discipline of those to whom the goverment of the Church belongs 'T is confessed that through the corruption of our natures the best duties frequently perform'd are apt to degenerate into cold and airy formalities 'T is the great happiness of those Christians which dwel near Cathedrals that they may meet Three t●mes a day Evening Morning and Noon to offer up prayer and praises to the High and Holy God but 't is very much to be lamented that Cittizens and others not hindred by necessarie occasions should be so frequently absent from these solemn Assemblies as usually they are It is yet more to be lamented that those whose duty it is to officiate at those solemn services should look upon them as a p●nsum a task a burden as naughty boyes at school do their lessons how far are such stupid souls from holy David's zeal and piety One thing saith that good King Psal. 22.4 have I desired of the Lord which I shall seek after that I may dwel in the house of the Lord all the daies of my life to behold the beauty of the Lord and to enquire in his Temple Want of sense zeal at holy Offices is not the fault of Chore or Quire service but of those that Officiate who if they will seriously fix their hearts upon those holy duties when they sing and give praise as David did attending to the matter of their heavenly and ravishing Anthems as well as to the Musick they would not look ●pon the service as a burden but as a blessed opportunity thus to praise Almighty God in the beauty of Holyness Dub. Happily it might be so to those who understood those Anthems but I have heard some say that the singing in Chores is to them much like a Latine service they knowing not what is sung Firm. This is your Fift Exception and 't is indeed a very weak one there being none who frequent this service but know very well what is sung unless it be the full Anthem let those that make this objection frequent this service and then they will be ashamed of so frivelous a Cavile and easily perceive the fault to have been in themselves and not in the service Dub. There is one exception yet behind against your Chore service as the use of Musicall Instruments in the performance of a great part of it which are said to be Levitical and therefore unlawful under the Gospel as we have seen in the Geneva Notes upon the last Psalm as also in Aquinas Quest. 22.9 19. and divers other Learned Men. Firm. This is a very gross mistake for Musical Instruments are not part of the Levitical law never instituted by Moses who was so faithful a servant in his trust that he would not have omitted to enjoyn them had they been given him in Charge by Allmighty God They were in use long before Moses presently after the Creation of the world for Gen. 4. we read that the rare gift of playing on Musical Instruments was given to Iubal Can we imagine that such a gift was bestowed on him to Stir up wantonness and lust by the more artificial singing of unsavory Sonnets Or is it not more rational to conceive that this skil in Musick was given to men to Sing forth the Praises of our great Creator in a more excellent manner When we Glorify the Lord we ought to exalt him as much as we can Ecclesiasticus 43.30 And surely if Musick has a natural influence upon our affections to Stir up and quicken them in wantoness and daliance certainly it may work the same effect upon them to quicken and enliven them in a more devout and intensive Praising of Almighty God in all those that have a Religious tendency and a serious disposition to his worship and service besides seing 't is a moral and perpetual duty to shew forth the Praises of God all rational men will consent that this ought to be performed after the best manner and consequently with such skil and are that has the greatest influence upon our affections rather then after such a manner which renders the service of God mean and contemptible as 't is rendred in many of our Parochial Churches Dub. You have fully satisfied me that Musical Instruments in the service of God are not Levitical but are natural means to Stir up the affections in these sacred Hyms and Anthems Nevertheless I have heard that many who are much taken with Chore Anthems are much offended at the manner of reading of Prayers in Cathedrals when they pray for the Sick they use the ordinary tone which is used in Parish Churches at other times they pronounce their Prayers in a middle way between Reading and Singing Which seems to be not so grave and sutable to the Solemnity of Prayer Firm. I confess this is a common objection and some that are no enimies to Cathedral service have in this much desired a reformation but this must be left to the prudence of those that set at the Serne mean while we ought not to condemn the Quireservice for this seeming indecency well knowing that the stress of Religious duties does not consist in the toning and modulation of the voice but in the Musick of the heart and affections in a serious and devout fixing of the mind upon the things that are Read or Sung the want of which in those who Read Prayers or Sing Anthems is no little sin and one main reason why some of our Singing-men are not so seriously devout as they ought to be really those that are frequently present officiating in holy duties unpreparedly carelessly formally and irreverently by Gods just judgment may be given up to a senceless stupidity for their prophanation of the holy ordinances of God Dub. 'T
is certain that a●prophane carless performing of Divine service is a very great sin and a necessary cause of irreligion and practical Atheism one exception I had allmost forgott which concerns Choristers who are said to be for the most part very untoward Children Firm. First This cannot be denyed but the reasons are first negligence in the Musick Masters whose chiefest care it is to teach them to Sing and the end why they Sing namely to set forth the Praises of their Creator neither are they so careful to instruct them how to behave themselves reverently and devoutly at the worship and service of God Secondly Some of them are not set to the Grammer School where upon they squander away a great part of their time in vain sports and idleness which is the Mother of all villany and wickednss Thirdly But the chiefest reason of all is that our Choristers are commonly the Children o● mean Parents who for the most part are very ignorant in the great matters of Religion and extreamly negligent in the concerns of their own and their Childrens Souls Now Deans and Chapters are necessitated to make choise of such poor Children because the better sort of people disdain to have their Children brought up in that noble Science of Musick which is their gross ignorance besides their scorn and contempt of this Science they misconceive that if they should send them to the Musick School it would hinder them in their Grammer learning which might easily be prevented by imploying those hours only at Musick which are spent in foolish insignificant sports and pastimes which as I am inform'd is the practise in some places beyond Sea where their youths spend much of the afternoons in Musick and Dancing Training Mathematicks and such like manly and profitable exercises which conduce both to the health of the body and benefit of the understanding Dub. I perceive that those exceptions against Deans and Chapters and Cathedral service are not so substantial as once I conceived them to be If you please we will now proceed to those which I have heard urged with much earnestness against ●et forms of Prayer and in particular against the Liturgie of the Church of England Firm. Most willingly I pray you favour me with the recital of them Dub. 'T would be to much trouble and to little purpose to mention all that I have heard seing many of them are very frivolous and not worthy of a serious answer those that seem to be the most material are First that they are imposed by mans Authority Secondly they stint the Spirit Thirdly they are cold and dead forms our Spirits are not affected and quickned by them as by conceived and extemporary Prayers Firm. First whatsoever is imposed upon us by mans Authority contrary to the word of God is utterly unlawfull but set Forms taken out of ●ods word are not contrary to that word especially when not only the very matter of them is contained in Holy Scripture but the very words and phrase 'T is a strange peice of nonsence that what is in it self lawfull and laudable should cease to be so because 't is commanded by our Superiors True indeed that things in themselves lawfull being in their own nature but indifferent if commanded as necessary and intrinsically holy are upon that account unlawfull and repugnant to Christian liberty but more of this when we shall di●course about Ceremonies Secondly That the Spirit is stinted by a set Form and that Reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit To this I reply That if their were any truth in these exceptions how comes it to pass that ●e have so many set Forms of Prayer and thanksgiving in Holy Scripture How do set form● of Prayer more stint the Spirit then set Forms of Psalms for Singing Yea does a set Form of Prayer more stint the Spirit then the extemporary conceptions of the Minister limit and stint the Spirit of the Congregation to whom they are upon this account in the nature of set Forms When these queries shall be rationally answered I shall through away all set Forms which have been used by the ●hristian Churches for above 1400 years Besides those of the Presbyterian perswasion allow'd them as lawfull in their conferences with the Bishops anon after his Majesties restauration As to the other part of the other exception that reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit this to those who understand the true meaning of that Phrase is a most frivilous cavill for setting aside the extraordnary gift of prayer to pray in or by the Spirit denotes first the making of our prayers according to the mind of the Spirit exprest in the Scripture as may appear Col. 3.16 Secondly to pray by the Spirit is to pray by that principle of grace wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and enabling us to every good duty as well as to prayer Thirdly to pray by the Spirit is when the Spirit do's stir up our hearts to this Holy duty working in us good desires and motions quickning our faith and fervency whereby our hearts minds spirits go along with out Tongues and Words utterd either in a set Form or by our extemporary expressions which is usually practized by knowing Christians in their Closset devotions Dub. I confess I am not able to shew why set Forms of Prayer should stint the Spirit more then set forms of Singing and I am perswaded that praying by the Spirit signifies no more then the assistance of the holy Spirit quickning and stirring us up to and in Prayer whereby our hearts and spirits are fixed in that holy duty joyning and going along with the Tongue and Voice but truly I find by experience that my Spirit is more stirred up by a Prayer that is new which I never heard before being lively deliver'd then by a common Form read out of a Book Firm. This is the chiefest reason ●hich renders men such admirers of extemporary Prayers and so opposite to set forms their own experience tels them that they are more taken with such Prayers then with common Forms read out of a Book whi●h phanciful experience no wise man will plead against reason and judgment it being very deceitful and the issue of a very common corruption and humane infirmity which inclines us to be more taken with what is new then with what we have often heard especially when 't is deliver'd in a lively tone with pleasing actions and gesticulations of the Body and without Book though for substance and soundness what is read be infinitely before it Pray Sir answer me but this one question whether are your affections more stir'd up at the reading of some portion of Scripture by the Minister or at a good Sermon delivered from the Pulpit Dub. I confess I am much more affected my affections are more wrought upon by a good Sermon deliver'd with life and action then at the reading of the best Chapter