A Theological Dialogue Containing the DEFENCE and JUSTIFICATION OF Dr. John Owen FROM THE FORTY TWO ERRORS Charged upon him by Mr. Richard Baxter In a certain MANUSCRIPT ABOUT Communion in Lyturgical Worship Hebr. 11.5 By Faith Abel obtained a witness that he was righteous God testifying of his gifts and by it being dead yet speaketh 1 Cor. 4.3 4. With me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of mans judgment He that judgeth me is the Lord. LONDON Printed for the Author 1684. A THEOLOGICAL DIALOGUE CONTAINING Dr. Iohn Owen's DEFENCE AND JUSTIFICATION AGAINST Mr. Richard Baxter's CHARGE c. J. O. SIR you say That there is a certain Manuscript come to your hand which is famed to be Dr Owen's but received by you from a private hand which you publish taking it for granted so to be add his Name to it and expose it to Publick View and charge the said Dr. Owen with forty two Errors therein contained It is not yet proved by you to be his and therefore whether its reasonable for you to charge him with forty two Errors if you had found them in the said Manuscript let the World judge But whether the charge of such Errors on the said Manuscript be just give us leave to Examine by our Ensuing Conference And seeing by a continued Prosopopeia you direct your Discourse Charges Reproofs and Admonitions to me as if I were personally present or at least living in the Body who you know departed this Life some months since Take it not amiss if I treat you in the like nature and think it as feasible for a dead man to speak in the Ears of the Living as for the Living to speak in the Ears of the Dead I suppose if that Manuscript were mine some or other of the Congregation to which I was Pastor might come to me with this Case of Conscience Sir Is it lawful for us who are Members of a Congregation of Faithful People according to Article 19. of the Church of England for to joyn now as things are in their present Circumstances in the Publick Worship by the Liturgy And that it was Answered Manuscript It is not lawful for us to go to and joyn in Publick Worship by the Common Prayer because that Worship in it self according to the Rule of the Gospel is unlawful Now I pray Sir what Resolution would you give of this Case R. B. I say It is not only lawful but a Duty for those that cannot have better Publick Church-Worship without more hurt than benefit and are near a competent Parish Minister to go to and joyn in Publick Worship performed according to the Liturgy and in Sacramental Communion and for those that can have better to joyn sometimes with such Parish-Churches when their forbearance scandalously seemeth to signifie that they take such Communion for unlawful and so would tempt others to the same Accusation and Uncharitable Separation J. O. Sir Your Resolution seems to me very long and upon so many Suppositions that its very ambiguous and doth very scarcely if at all reach the Enquiry here made For 1. We ask for our selves who are Actual Members of a Voluntary Church whether we may joyn in such Communion spoken of when we are as we apprehend of a Society and have a Publick Worship more agreeable to the mind of Christ and our own Edification and do you judge whether that be better or no for us 2. What you mean by a competent Ministry we know not one man judges a man a Competent yea able and profitable Minister which another doth not who must be a binding Judge to me in this case Must I walk by my own Judgment for Edification or by another Mans 3. Doth nearness to a Competent Minister make it my duty to joyn in all the Publick Worship of that Church of which he is Minister You say If I cann't have better But if I have and can by going further what then And for those that can have better to joyn sometimes in such Parish-Churches but then not alwayes and to leave their aforesaid Communion as unlawful whereas our said Parish-Churches require us so to do prosecuting us by Laws wherever they find us assembled You say it must be when our forbearance scandalously seemeth to signifie that we take such Communion for unlawful Who shall be judge of this Doth my Actual Non-communion with any Church scandalously reflect upon its Constitution if I walk in Communion with a Church which I judge to be a Church of Christ Must I go by the conduct of every peevish man or Church that will say so If a Church of Baptists in the same Parish with me will say so must I therefore joyn with them upon their unalterable terms which I am not satisfyed in Again what if I do take such Communion for unlawful upon grounds satisfactory to my self am I bound to-slight those grounds because somebody saith my forbearance hath a Scandalous Signification Likewise if my Separation be in duty to wards God and my own Soul it 's not uncharitable to any Man neither do I tempt any man by walking therein to uncharitableness or any Accusation thereof Manuscript Something must be premised to the Confirmation of this Position J. O. These are the things that we premise and therefore should be agreed upon on both sides pro concessis before we go to prove the Position laid down by the following Twelve Arguments Manusc 1. The whole System of Liturgical Worship with all its inseparable Dependencies are intended for as such it is Established by Law and not in any part of it only as such it is required that we receive it and attend unto it It is not in our power it is not left to our judgment or liberty to close with or make use of any part of it as we shall think fit There are in the Mass-Book many Prayers directed to God only by Jesus Christ yet it is not lawful for us thereon to go to Mass under a pretence only of joyning in such lawful Prayers As we must not offer their Drink-Offerings of Blood so we must not take up their Names in our Lips Psal 16 4. have no Communion with them R. B. To the first I answer 1. If he will include all that is in the Liturgy the Nonconformists confess that there is something in it which they differ from as unjustifiable and so there is in all mens Worship of God J. O. We say The whole System our meaning is plain the totum as it stands constituted in all its integral parts When I speak of John or Thomas c. I speak not of a Finger or a Leg if I do I say the Finger or Leg of such an one So we speak not of those things that you will call faulty and unjustifyable as it may be a Surplice or Cross c. but of the whole Liturgy-Worship as Establish'd R. B. He intimateth that it is not in cur power to
the preceptive or penal part though it justifies me before the Law R. B. What if the Creed or Lords Prayer were too rigorously imposed J. O. If the thing be my duty in obedience to a just and Supream Law I am not to neglect it because an Inferiour Governour too rigorously imposeth it 1. Such a rigorous imposition hurts me not in that which I take to be duty to do whether that Imposition be or no. 2. Christ never annexeth too severe Penalties to any of his Laws 3. If man undertake to annex too rigorous Punishments or unsuitable ones it hinders not me in my Duty to Christ As if a Magistrate make Whipping or Hanging the Penalty of not receiving the Sacrament in such a time If I upon Examination of my self and the Rule apprehend it my duty in Obedience to Christ I will do it but not in respect to Mans Laws But if the Subordinate Law-maker alter the Nature and Circumstances of the Supream the Law is another thing and my Obedience justifies the power of the Law-maker and the goodness of the Law in the Mandatory part Again good things by a lawful Authority may be too rigorously imposed and the Law may be unjust in the Penalty though the Mandatory part be good which injustice is the sin of the Law-givers loss and wrong of the Transgressor because he suffers beyond the Merit of his Transgression but this hinders not me from my Duty neither doth this rigorous Imposition hurt me so long as I stand in obligation and practice of my duty by another Righteous Law which requires the same thing If Christ commands me to say the Lords Prayer and annexeth no corporal punishment I will do it If Mans Law saith I shall be hang'd if I do not do it I do the Action by vertue of Christ's Law But let such Law makers look to it that annex Corporal Penalties to Laws of his Institution the Cries of them upon which they are Executed will be loud in Christs Ear. Manuscript This Corjunction by C mmunion by the Worship of the Liturgy is a Symbol Pledge and Token of â—n Ecclesâ—astical Incorporation with the Church of England in its present Constitution it is so in the Law of the Land it is so in the Canons of the Church it is so in the common understanding of all men and by these Rules must our Vnderstanding and Practice be judged and not be any Reserves of our own which neither God nor good men will allow of Wherefâ—re R. B. To the third Premise I answer The Church of England is an Ambiguous word 1. As it signifies a part of the Universal Church agreeing in Faith one God and all Essentials J. O. So any Church may be as well as it any particular Congregation this is no distinguishing Character but is ambiguous too R. B. 2. As it is a Christian Kingdom under one King J. O. A Church in a sence is a Christian Kingdom i. e. a Royal Nation under Christ their King But there 's no such Gospel Church in your sence for there was neither Christian Kingdom nor King in the Apostles days R. B. As it is a Confedracy of many Churches to keep concord in lawful Circumstantials as well as Integrals J. O. This will not tell us yet what the Church of England is 1. A confederacy of Churches is by No-body call'd a Church in your sence of a Church the Scripture no where calls a confedracy of Churches a Church nor doth any that call the Church of England â— Church owning it so to be in its professed Constitution mean thereby a confederation of Churches 2. National Churches may be a confederation of Churches and such confederation in lawful circumstantials as well as integrals will make a Church I know not why we may not have a Catholick Visible Church Organized if this be a due acceptation of a Church R. B. If any Church go beyond these bounds and upon good pretences shall agree upon any Error or Evil it is a mistake to hold that all that incorporate with them in the three aforesaid lawful respects do therefore confederate with them in their Error This is your Fourth Error J. O. That 's â—our Error 1. In Arithmetick it s but the third by your own mark 2. In Logick for what â—ounds have you set These three things are but general Descriptions of a Church at most Here 's no definition in any or all of them of any particular Church and that is setting of â—ounds when I difference and describe a Species or Individual under its next Genus by its particular form or proper adjunct we spâ—ak of a particular Church so bounded The Church of England is so according to its present constitution by Establishing Laws in its actual form of Officers Members particular Worship and power as an Organized individual Church National Church is not the next Genus of the Church of England but remote National Church is the next Genus Now I say upon whatever pretences a particular Church calls and professeth it self a Church as the conditions of their Communion if you joyn with them upon those conditions pretended and professed that is a Token of your Ecclesiastical Incorporation in the said Church in its present constitution the Church and all others looks upon you as an Actual Member let the conditions be Error or no Error The Question is not so much now whether the terms be Error or not but whether your joyning upon the terms required is not your Ecclesiastical Incorporation with them And then if the terms be erroneous and sinful whether you do not joyn in the Error and professedly allow it by your practice R. B. I will give you a general instance and a particular one 1. You cann't name me one combined company of Churches from the Apostles dayes till now that had no Error J. O. You might as well have said any one Church for we speak of a particular Church not of combined Churches but suppose as you say If that Combination be an Error or an Error be the condition of the Combination then my coming upon that condition is an Error and an Incorporation into that combination so as to make me Confederate in that Error R. B. The Independents gathered a Synâ—d at the Savoy and there among their Doctrinals or Articles of Faith laid down two points Expresly contrary to Scripture 1. That it is not Faith but Christs Righteousness that we are justified by whereas it is both and the Scripture often saith the contrary J. O. It is a strange thing that any man should take upon him such Magisterial Dictatorship in matters of Religion to insinuate Error into Mens Minds and unjust accusations of others For 1. When the Scripture speaks of Justification by Faith doth any sound Divines or Christians understand it of the Act of believing but that the object of Faith that Justifies is the Righteousness of Faith our own Righteousness or Christs Righteousness but this dispute is not
Error or Sin that every Saint suffers for J. O. But I believe the world begins now to be pretty well satisfied that all those things are not Errors or Sins which Mr. Baxter calls so and makes a great putther to prove so nor all those Truths or Vertues that he saith are Mr. Tombs a back-sliding Anabaptist was a great Saint in your Books And though you will not be of a Sufferers Judgment to justifie his Suffering you might forbear Espousing the Imposers and Persecutors cause and forbear persecuting with bitter words that comes not short of the others There are hard words and Speeches to be reckoned for one day R. B. To your Minor It is a gross mistake to say that going to the Lyturgy maketh the Refusers the only blameable cause of their own Sufferings what are you one that acquit all the Prosecutors J. O. You are so for you justifie the Law of which they are Offenders he that justifies a Law justifies also the due Executioners of it and therefore condemns the Sufferer as the only blameable cause of his Suffering A murderer is condemn'd and hang'd for Murder the Law is good the proâ—eedings against him just and due who is the blameable Cause of his own Suffâ—rings but himself R. B. But are there no Saints thâ—t go to Common Prayer J. O. Men may be Sâ—ints as you said not long ago and yet Engage in an unjust Prosecution and to joyn in Communion with them is to justifie their violences and passionate Mistakes as also condemn the Sufferers I wish such Saints as you speak of I mean they that separate not would give more proof of their Saintship to the world by separating at least from malice hatred and bitterness of words and actions yea such inhumanity that Turks would not boast of Papists blush to hear of afterwards but some Protestants your unseparable Saints plead for as the Ecclesiastical and Evangelical meritorious Righteousness by which they expect to be justified before God and man R. B. The Truth is Repentance is a hard work c. J. O. It is so but it s an easie thing to make a great splutter about it and lâ—y the Law very hard to others by Press and Pulpit Is there a man on Earth that will stand more upon his proud pretences and insulting too in the maintaining of manifest decryed Errors and Practises Therefore such Harrangues as these are might be spared for I know no body affected with them Claudius accusat c. Turpe est Doctori cum culpa redarguit ipsum Manuscript Arg. 8. That Practice which is accompanyed with unavoidable Scandal Engaged in only on the pretence of Liberty is contrary to the Gospel But such is our joyning in the present Pâ—blick Worship It were Endless to reckon up all the Scandals which will ensue that which respects our Enemies must not be omitted will they not think will they not say that we have only falsly and hyppocritically pretended conscience for what we do when we can upon outward considerations comply with that which is required of us Wo to the World because of such offences but wo to them also by whom they are given R. B. But in the first place take heed of offending Saints Now we must none of us hold communion with the Parish-Churches least some Saints that separate should be rendred false Witnesses of God and blameable J. O. I do not believe that ever a man that scoffs at holâ—ness and the Professors of it will be justified by his own works This and an hundred more Expressions in this Book had become another man more then Mr. Baxter Sir Do you know what Spirit you are of It 's so manifest I am moved in love to speak so plainly R. B. To the Major 1. It is not true when there is far more Scandal by for bearing that practice but only when there is less on the other side J. O. Well that is Answ Bellarmine thou ly'st and it must be so all the World cann't help Bellarmine in this case he is perfectly refuted Observe now how pretty the reason of the denial is It is not true that that practice which is accompanyed with unavoidable Scandal c. is contrary to the Gospel because there is greater Scandal by forbearing that practice 1. Do we talk of comparative Scandal 2. It s unavoidable with a witness if it lie on both parts of an indifferent actâ—on 3. It was always reckon'd hitherto by 〈◊〉 Divines that the forbearing a doubtful action had the least scandal in it but I must confess you are very safe for you say The Scandal is greater on the forbearing side only when there is less on the other side One stick is longer when the oâ—her is shorter This is now learnedly determined Mr. Doctor R. B. To the Minor It is not true That it is only Liberty that is pleaded for the Communion in question It is a great Duty i. e. of Union Concord Peace Obedience to Christ c. Avoiding of Schism and twenty Duties more Error 39. J. O. Mâ—st Dâ—sseâ—ters that afterwards have complyed have done it on the pretence of Liberty in matters of indifferency against that pretence we alledge the business of Scandal and the great danger of Scandal in matters of that nature which Paul lays such a Stress upon yea our Lord Jesus Christ himself in his Min stry annexing the greatest woes in the Gospel to Scandal Puh says this Gentleman here 's no danger of a Scandal in this case it is not a doubtful case it s our duty to comply a duty of Concord Love Obedience c. Well all that I shall say here is If any man be troubled and disquieted in mind about scruples of Conscâ—ence here is a Casuist will do their business beyond all Casuists before him or any Antinomians whatever For thoâ—e things that you the Divines you have consulted with have called siâ—s thousands have been disturbed and wounded in Conscience for doing of he will shew to be an eminent duty About the duties â—ere mentioned Enquiry may be made elsewhere if need require our Argument will stand fast enough without it at this time Manuscript Arg. 9. That Worship which is unsuited to the relish of the new Creature which is inconsistent with the Conduct of the Spirit of God in Prayer is unlawful for the Nature Vse and benefit of Prayer is overthrown hereby in a great measure Now let any one consider what are the prâ—mised Aids of the holy Spirit with respect to the Prayers of the Church whether as to the matter of them or as unto the ability of performance or as unto the manner of it and he shall find that they are all rejected and excluded by this form of Worship as is pretended comprizing the whole matter limiting the whole manner and giving all the Abilities of Prayer that are needful or required This hath been proved at large R. B. It is a mistake Error 40. That this form of