red that there are now Apostles and Euangelistes and Prophetes You shall assuredly doe maruelles if you proue that as you say you will if any denye it I denye it proue you it And that you may haue some thing to doe more then peraduenture you thoughte of when you wrote these words I will shew you my reasons why I thinke there ought to be none nor can be none vnles they haue wonderfull and extraordinarie callings It must first be vnderstanded that the signification of thys worde Apostle when it is properly taken extendeth it selfe not only to all the ministers of God being sent of God but to the ambassadoure of any Prince or Noble man or that is sent of any publike authoritie and is vsed of the scripture by the trope of Synechdoche for the twelue that oure sauior Christ appoynted to go throughout all the world to preache the gospell vnto the whych number was added S. Paule and as some thinke Barnabas whych are seuered from all other ministers of the gospell by these notes First that they were immediately called of God as s. Paule to the Galathians proueth him selfe to be an apostle because he was not appoynted by men Then that they sawe Christe whych argument S. Paule vseth Am I not an Apostle haue I not seene Christe Thirdly that these had the fielde of the whole worlde to Till where as other are restrained more perticularly as to a certen ploughe lande wherein they shoulde occupye them selues Wherevppon it followeth that as we conclude against the Pope truely that he can be no successor of the Apostles not only because he neyther reacheth nor dothe as they did but because the Apostles haue no successors neither any can succeede into the office of an Apostle so maye we likewise conclude against those that would haue the Apostles nowe adayes that there can be none because there is none vnto whome all these three notes doe agree as that he is bothe sent of God immediately or that he hath seene Christ or that he is sent into all the world And althoughe some Ecclesiasticall wryters do call sometimes good ministers successors of the Apostles yet that is to be vnderstanded because they propound the same doctrine y they did not because they succeded into the same kinde of function whych they could not doe S. Paule doth vse this word Apostle sometimes in hys proper and natiue signification for hym that is publikely sent from any to other as when he speaketh of the brethren that were ioyned wyth Titus whych were sent by the churches wyth reliefe to the pore church in Ierusalem and Iewrie and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle But that is wyth addition and not simply as in the first place he calleth the brethren the apostles of the Churches that is not the apostles of all Churches or sent to all churches but the apostles whych certaine churches sent with the reliefe to other certaine churches and Epaphroditus he calleth not an apostle simply but the apostle of the Philippians that is whych the Philippians sent wyth reliefe to Paule being in prison at Rome as it appeareth in the same Epistle And as for Andronicus and Iunius whych are by you recited belyke to proue that we may haue more apostles because it is sayd of S. Paule that they were famous and notable amongst the apostles it cannot be proued by any thing I see there whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no. For S. Paule calleth them hys kinneffolke and fellowe prisonners and dothe not say that they were his fellowe labourers and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the apostles and well knowne vnto them whych is no apostle And if the apostles would haue had this order of the apostles to continue in the church there is no doubt but that they would haue chosen one into Iames hys roume when he was slaine as they did when they supplied the place of Iudas by chusing Mathias and so euer as they had died the other would haue put other in their places So it appeareth that thys function of the apostles is ceased You aske farther that if a man should not preach before he haue a pastoral charge what they will answere vnto Phillip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they be no pastors yet they may be euangelists whych goe about the countrey heere and there â–ª But this office is ceased in the church as the apostles is sauing that sometime the Lord doth raise vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the churches whych are falne downe pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somewhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons First for because all those that the scripture calleth precisely Euangelists which are only Phillip and Timothe had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is like that Titus and Syluanus and Apollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same manner confirmed but there is no such miraculous confirmation nowe therfore there is no suche vocation For allbeit those that God hathe raised vp in those darke times and ouerthrowes of the church wherof meÌ„tion is made before as M. Luther c. had not their â—allings alwayes confirmed by direct and manifest miracles of hearing or raising vp from the deade yet the maruellous succes and blessing that the Lord gaue vnto their labors were sufficient seales vnto all men that althoughe they had no ordinarie calling nor by men yet they were sent of God That I speake nothing of the miraculous deliuerances that some of them had out of dangers by warning geuen of pearils by those whych were neuer seene before nor after and by such like wonderfull meanes as are to be seene in stories Nowe againe if there should be any Euangelist who should ordaine him you will say the Bishop But I say that cannot be that the greater shoulde be ordained of the les For the Euangeliste is a higher degree in the churche then is the byshop or pastor And if he be so whye hathe he not hys estimation heere in the Churche aboue the Byshop or Archbyshop eyther for the Archbyshop is but a Byshop or whye dothe not he ordaine Byshoppes as Timothe and Titus did whych were Euangelistes being one poynte of their office as * Eusebius declareth Againe if there be in euery churche a pastor as S. Paule commaundeth what should the Euangelists do for either that pastor doth his duetie and then the Euangelist is superfluous or if he do it not then he is no lawfull pastor and so ought he to be put out an other to be put in hys stead And where the pastor doing hys duety can not suffice there the scripture hath geuen him an ayde of the doctor which for because his office consisteth in teaching doctrine to thys ende y the pastor mighte not be driuen to spende so muche time in propounding the
seuered from other men by any note of apparell You say you knowe that the cheefe notes of a minister are doctrine and learning if you meane that the distinction of apparell must supply the rest and that that also hath some force to commend their ministery the prophets and apostles of our sauior Christe left vs no perfect paterne of a minister nor no sufficient glas to dres him by wherof the moste parte neuer vsed any suche seuerall apparell and none of them haue left any commaundement of it For want of store and to make a long boke heere is S. Iohns miter rehearsed thrise in one leafe to the same purpose and in the same wordes And because it was not enough that M. Bullinger and M. Martyr should speake of them you haue preuented them both least you shuld haue semed to haue brought nothing If this be not Coleworts twise sodden I can not tell what is You aske whether the christian magistrate may enioyne a seuerall kinde of apparell to the ministers Either the cause is too weake whych you defende or else it hath gotten an euill patron whych would so gladly shift it and chaunge it with an other For this is an other question which you speake of For although that be graunted vnto you whych you demaunde yet you can not conclude your cause For all be it the magistrate may commaunde a seuerall apparell yet it foloweth not that he may commaund this kinde of popishe apparell and therefore what manner of argument is this of youres the magistrate maye commaunde a seuerall apparell therfore he may commaunde this The colledge walles will tell you that a man can not conclude from the whole to the parte affirmatiuely So you see I might let you fish and catch nothing but I am neyther afrayde nor ashamed to tell you the truth of that you aske so farreforth at least as I am perswaded I thincke therefore it may be such a kinde of apparell as the magistrate commaunding it the minister may refuse it and such it may be as he may not refuse it But whatsoeuer apparell it be this commaundement can not be without some iniury done to the minister For seeing that the magistrate doth allow of him as of a wise learned and discrete man and trusteth him with the gouernement of his people in matters betwene God and them it were somewhat harde not to trust him with the appoynting of his owne apparell and he is probably to be supposed that he hath discretion to weare his owne geare comely and in order that is able to teach others how they should weare theirs and that he should be able to doe that by his wisdome and learning that others do without learning and great store of wisedome that he should keepe order and decencie in apparel which hath learned in the schole of Christ which they doe that had neuer other scholemaster then common sense and reason And if any minister be founde to fault in going either dissolutely or to exquisitely and delicately then the Magistrate may punishe him according to the disorder wherein he faulteth And whereas you would proue that it may be done with the ministers as it is done with Iudges sergeants Aldermen and Sheriffes the case is not like For as for these which be in office their robes and gownes may as their maces swordes somewhat helpe to set forth the maiestie and moderate pompe which is meete for the offices of iustice which they execute and consequently to helpe to strike a profitable feare into their heartes which are vnderneath them which hath nor can haue no place in the minister whose authoritie and power as it is not outwarde so can it not nor ought not to borow any credite of these externall shewes And the Magistrate or the Citie may seeke some honor of the citizens mustering as it were by numbers in one liuerie which ought not to be loked for at the ministers hand because he honoureth and serueth the magistrate an other way nor can not also considering that they are scattered through all the land in euery towne one or not so many as being put in one liuery would make any great shew to the honor commendation of the towne or citie where they remaine And so you see your question answered whereby appeareth they are subiectes as other are and to obay also sometimes where the commaundement is not geuen vpon good grounds The place of Theodoret cited of M. Bullinger maketh mention of a golden cope and that vsed by byshops of Ierusalem and solde by Cyrill a good bishop whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of such garments in the ministerie of the sacramentes In the place the which hee citeth out of Socrates there is one Sycinius an Nouatian bishop which is sayd to haue worne white apparell and therefore is reprehended as for to muche exquisitenesse finenesse of apparell the B. of Duresine in a letter he wrote alledgeth the same place agaynst the surplice A man would hardly beleue that maister Bullinger shoulde vse these places to proue a distinction of apparell amongst the ministers We are not ignorant but that a cloke hath bene vsed of the ministers in theyr seruice but that was no seuerall apparell of the ministers but common to all the Christians which with change of their religion changed also their apparell as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de pallio As for the Petalum that S. Iohn ware I see not how it can bee proued to be like a bishops miter For the cap that S. Cyprian gaue the executioner argueth rather that it was the commō apparell which was customably worne for else it would not haue done him so much good As for his vpper garment which hee gaue to hys deacon it was a token of his good will which he would leaue with him as the practise hath bene seene with vs and proueth nothing that it was any seuerall apparell As for the white linnen garment which he suffered in it can not seme strange vnto vs which haue sene the holy martyrs of the Lord executed in Smithfield and other places And it is not to be thought that S. Cyprian had so small iudgement that lyuing in the time of persecution he would by wearing of some notable apparell from the rest as it weare betray him selfe into the handes of his enemies vnles all the christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of theyr fayth and greater detestation of the contrary religion as Tertullian and the christians in his time did by the wearing of a cloke which reason may be also alledged of the Petalum of S. Iohn It is true Chrysostome maketh mention of a white garment but not in commendation of it but rather to the contrary For he sheweth that the dignitie of their ministerie their safetie and crowne was in taking heede that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lordes supper not in going about the church with a white garment And
that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done I graunt it But from whence can that spring but from fayth and how can we perswade and assure our selues that we do well but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring Whereupon it falleth out the forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke priuate we ought to follow the direction of the word of God in matters of the church and which concerne all there may be nothing done but by the word of god Not that we say as you charge vs in these words that no ceremonie c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church it is not lawfull to doe what men list but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture that are geuen to be the squire whereby those should be squared out Which rules I will here set downe as those which I would haue as well al orders ceremonies of the church framed by as by the which I wil be content that all those orders ceremonies which are now in question whether they be good conuenient or no should be tried examined by And they are those rules which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture The first that they offend not any especially the Church of God. The second is that which you cite also out of Paul that all be done in order and comclynes The thirde that all be done to edifying The last that they be done to the glory of God. So that you see that those things which you recken vp of the houre time day of prayer c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture yet they are not left to any to order at their pleasure or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established and those alone to be taken which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited And so it is brought to passe which you thinke a great absurdity that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of god Wherby it likewise appeareth that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times places persons other circumstances so could not at once be set down established for euer yet so left to the order of the church as that it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde But how doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the church therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop to alter the ministerie the is appointed by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for the pore to abrogate cleane both name office of the elder with other more how I say doth it follow the because the church hath power to order certaine things therfore it hath power to do so of these which God hath ordayned and established of the which there is no tyme nor place nor person nor any other circumstance which can cause any alteration or chaunge Which thing shall better appeare both in the discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certayne reasons why there should be other gouernmēt now then was in the tyme of the apostles But whyle you goe about to seme to say much rake vp a great nomber of thinges you haue made very euill mestin and you haue put in one thinges which are not paires nor matches Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe I will not stand to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was your iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions reprehensions and if these will not profitte excommunication and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe There are also ciuill punishments and punishmentes of the body likewise appoynted by the word of God in diuers places in Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods and not to the Lorde alone shall dye the death And in Deutcronomie Thou shalt burne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may heare learne and not dare do the like The execution of thys law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza who made a law that all those that did not seke the Lord shuld be kilde And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contēners of the word prayers There are other for such as neglect the worde which are according to the quantitie of the fault so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction the scripture hath defined of them both I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra of chaires in S. Mathew where by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching Of sitting at the communion which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples which examples are not to be lightly chaunged and vppon many occasions But this I can not omitte that you make it an indifferent thing to preache the word of God in churches or in houses that is to say priuately or publikely For what better interpretation can I haue then of your owne wordes which say by and by after of Baptisme that it is at the order of the church to make it priuate or publike For if it be in the power of the church to order that Baptisme may be ministred at the house of euery priuate person it is also in her power to ordayne that the worde be preached also priuately And then where is that which Salomon sayth that wysdom cryeth openly in the streates and at the corners of the stretes where
You oppose Amb. Aug. I could oppose Ignatius and Tertullian wherof the one saith it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other the it is to kil the Lord this is the inconuenience that cometh of such vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose sayth so therfore it is true And although Amb. and Aug. being straungers and priuate men at Rome wold haue so done yet it foloweth not that if they had ben citizens ministers there y they wold haue don it if they had don so to yet it foloweth not but they would haue spoken against the appoyntment of dayes nomothesian of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of that which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting whē as the one sayth it was remedy or reward to fast other dayes but in Lent not to fast was sinne and the other asketh what saluation we can obtaine if we blot not our sinnes by fasting seing that the scripture sayth the fasting almes doth deliuer from sin therfore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting Which I therfore recite because you would seme by Aug. Ambrose iudgements to alow of the weekely and commanded fasts What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired with the papistes I will not charge you so but wil thinke better of you vntil the contrary do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not to bring in popery again to allow of s Aug. saying wherin he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall councel or of the Apostles commaūded decreed wherby a gate is opē vnto the papists to bring in vnder the coloure of traditions all their beggery whatsoeuer For you plainly confirme that there is some thing necessary to be obserued which is not contained any wayes in the scripture For to keepe those holy dayes is not contained in the scripture neither can be concluded of any part therof and yet they are necessary to be kept if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessary to be kept which is not contained in the scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Aug. leaueth it in dout whether it were the Apostles tradition statute or a generall councels then you bring vs yet to a worse point that we can not be assured of the which is necessary for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordaine that these dayes should be kept as holy dayes or the coūcels And that it is S. Augustins meaning to father such like things of the Apostles it maye appeare by that whych he wryteth saying There are many things whych the whole churche holdeth and therfore are well beleued to be commaunded of the Apostles although they be not founde wrytten If thys iudgement of s Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God which are not in the scriptures therfore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures wherby we may be saued For al the commaundements of God of the apostles are nedeful for our saluation And marke I pray you whether your affections cary you before you sayd that the Lords day which was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be chaūged as the place and houre of prayer but the day of the passion resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessity of keping of them least haply in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lie betweene the councels and the apostles which of them decreed this And do you not perceiue how you stil reason against your self for if the church haue had so great regard to that which the apostles did in their times that they kept those things which are not wryttē and therfore are doutfull whether euer they vsed them or no how much more should we hold our selues to these things whych are wrytten that they did and of the whych we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holy dayes I will refer the reader vnto an other place where occasion is geuen againe to speake of them As for that rule y he geueth when he sayth whatsoeuer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receiue them with hys owne interpretation whych he hath afterward in 119. epist. ad Ianuarium which is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules whych you saye are worthye to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whit for I knowe no man that euer denyed but that the churche may in suche things as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules whych I haue before alledged out of S. Paule And as for the second of the three rules I can not at any hand allow it For when all christianitie was ouer runne wyth Poperie thyngs were vniuersally obserued whych to kepe were mere wickednes and thys strengtheneth the papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not enough because it must be grounded by the scripture and that it is wicked to geue such authority to any decree of men that a man should not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he ment nothing les For affirming that suche thyngs are the Apostles commaundements hys meaning was that they should be wythout all exception receiued and absolutely How much better is it that we take heede to the words of the Apostle then either to S. Augustins or yours whych sayth that if he or an angel from heauen should preach any other gospell then that whych he had preached that they should hold hym accursed he sayth not any contrary or repugnant doctrine but any other gospell But tel me why passed you by that in Augustin which he * wryteth to Iunuarie that those thyngs whych are not contained in the scripture nor decreed of coūcelles nor confirmed by generall customes but are varied by the manners of regions and of men vpon occasion offered ought to be cutte of although they seeme not to be against faith because they pres wyth seruile burdens the religion whych Christ would haue free Thys sentence belike was to hotte for you you coulde not cary it The rest whose names you recite whych you saye you leaue of for breuitie sake I leaue to the iudgement of the Reader to consider wherfore they be left out seeing that Augustin in whom you put so great trust answereth so little to your expectation
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline
doctor would proue that the authors of the admonition affirme it For sayth he by the rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is skarce done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taughte neither in Academia nor in Stoa nor Lyceo I haue red Quod fere fit non fit that whych is almost done is not done But I neuer remembre any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tonge those thyngs whych 〈◊〉 sayde to be skarce are notwythstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a â—an saith that there is skarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speache of thyngs whych are as when it sayth the iust man shal skarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answeared And wheras he sayth that it is all one to say that the election of the minister must be made by the church and to say it must be made by the people It is a great ouersyghte to make the parte and whole all one seeing the people be but one parte of the churche and the minister and the other gouernoures are allbeit not the greatest yet the principallest part I graunt that sometimes a part is taken for the whole and so we do call sometimes the gouernors of the churche the churche and sometimes the people But where the question is of the proprietye of these speaches the churche and the people there all men that haue any iudgement can easely put a difference The rest of those articles are answeared in the discourse of the booke Besydes that the faultes whych are found wyth the vntrue gathering of them are not taken away by M. Doctor but only in confident and bolde asseuerations And if I should say any thyng I should but repeate their wordes In the viewe of the second admonition M. Doctor dothe as it seemeth of purpose cull out those thyngs whych he hath spoken on before and in repeatyng of them referreth hys reader vnto hys boke Diuers other matters there are of great weight whych he speaketh not of if he doe approue them it had bene well he had signified hys liking if he do not that he had confuted them And if he trauailed so heauely of brynging forth of thys booke that it was as heauy a burden vnto him as Salomon sayth a fond word is vnto an vnwise man he might haue taken day to answere it Nowe by this slender answearing of it or rather not answearing at all but only asking howe thys and that is proued where as being proued it is vnreproued of hym he doth his cause more harme then he is aware of For vnles hys proufes be ioyned wyth his expulsions imprisonments and with all that racket whych he maketh in Cambridge to the vttermost of that his authority will stretch vnto he may be well assured that their driuing out will draw in the truth and their imprisonment will set the truth at greater libertye and therby proue it selfe to be neither Papistry nor Anabaptistry Donatistry Catharisme nor any other heresy whych are by due correction repressed But as for the truthe of God the more it is laden the straighter it standeth and the more it is kept vnder the more it enforceth it selfe to rise and will vndoubtedly gette vp howe great so euer the stone be whych is layd vpon it And albeit he had no leasure to answere the matters whych required his answere yet he carpeth at by matters and asketh who are meant by the politicke Macheuils What if they meane master doctor and suche other whych vnder the pretence of pollicy would ouerthrowe the churche and that by those thyngs whych haue skarce a shewe of pollicy and in deede ouerturne the pollicy and gouernmeÌ„t of the lord And I pray you tell me M. doctor who be those superyors whych do contemne hate discourage and frumpe those whych execute the lawes of the realme of the which you speake in the. 88. page And where you adde by and by that they enuy all men of great authority witte and pollicy I haue answeared thys speache before And truely I thincke there is not in Meshecke so slaunderous a tonge to be found as thys is nor the Iuniper coales are not comparable wyth it After he accuseth the admonition as if it condemned scholes and vniuersities wyth all manner degrees when it doth but inueigh against degrees giuen of custome rather then of ryghte rather by money then by merite of learning and when titles of doctorshyp be geuen to those whych haue not the offyce of a Doctor and oftentimes to those which can not do the office if they had it and when men do seeke vaine glory in them and suche lyke For the repetition of Gloria patri c. I haue spoken sufficiently before but what spirite is it that calleth this translation of the word battologefete vse not vaine repetitions a wycked wresting of S. Mathewes place in hys .vj. chapter What rasor is thys that cutteth so sharpe knoweth he against whome and against the excellent learning and singuler piety of howe many he speaketh For thys is the translation of those learned and godlye men whych translated the Bible whych is commoÌ„ly called the Geneua Bible and is thys a wycked wresting Admit it were not translated exactly to the word of the Euangelist is it therfore a wresting and a wicked wresting What I wil not say wicked but false conclusion or doctrine can be grounded of this translation And they that translate it thus haue not only the authority of the Lexicons to confirme their traÌ„slation whych shew that thys word was taken vp in reproche of a folysh Pocte called Battus whych vsed to repeat one thing many times but they haue also the circumstance of the place to warrant it For the reason whych our sauior Christ vseth to draw men from this fault leadeth to thys translation and can not stand with that sense which M. doctor setteth downe For how haÌ„g these togither you shall not babble many wordes wythout faithe c. because your heauenly father knoweth what you haue nede of before you aske It is vnlike first that our sauyor Christ wold speake thus babble not many words without fayth c. when as rather he would haue forbidden them to speake any one word without fayth c. For if he should speake thus he shuld seeme to haue alowed a prayer without fayth so that it were not coÌ„ceiued in many words And againe if as M. doctor sayth this had bene the proposition whych our sauyor Christ disswaded from y they should not babble many words wythout faith c. he would neuer haue added thys reason for your heauenly father knoweth c. for neyther is he father vnto any such And he woulde rather haue sayd as S. Iames sayeth that they should be sure to receiue nothyng because they aske not in faythe Nowe as thys
do approche nearer the scruice or worship of God. The causes why we are lothe to meddle with them are not as many are borne in hand because that we thincke any pollution so to sticke to the thinge◠them selues as that the wearing of them had any suche power to pollute make vncleane the vsers of them neyther yet only because the papistes haue superstitionsly vsed them but because they hauing beene abhominably abused by them haue no vse nor profite in those thinges or endes wherein and whereunto they are now vsed And further that they are also hurfull being monuments of idolatrie whereas to bring them in and establishe them it behoueth that there shoulde some manyfest profite of them appeare For it is not enoughe to say it is indifferent in the owne nature Ergo meete to be done but as the circumstances of the times and persones and profite or hurt of our brethren do require or not require so must it be done or not be done For in these thinges which are called indifferent God will haue the vse of them to be measured that it be referred first to his glory then to the profite of others Now that they are not profitable and hurtfull it also may appeare if we consider them by all the kindes of men in the realme The papistes are eyther stubborne or weake and in respect of both these they can not be but hurtfull The weake I call those that haue made some steppe from poperie to the gospell and of whome there is good hope that they may bee fully gotten to the gospell but these are harmed by the vse of these vestimentes for they take occasion of falling at them because they thinck that the sacraments gette reuerence by them and the ministerie is commended by such apparell wearing and thincke that the sacramentes wante some thing of that they shoulde haue if they be not vsed whereupon are hearde oftentimes these voyces I will not communicate vnles he weare a surplice But this offence and occasion of falling is confirmed by the vse of these garmentes therefore in respect of such men they are hurtfull Agayne although I haue knowledge and know that the wearing of a surplice is lawfull for me yet an other which hath not knowledge is by my example edifyed or strengthned to weare a surplice whereof he can tell no grounde why he should weare it and so synneth agaynst his conscience and for this cause S. Paule concludeth that that which a man may doe in respect of him selfe may not be done and is not lawfull to be done in respect of other Agayne for the stubberne papistes they take heereupon occasion to speake euill of and to blaspheme the truthe of the gospell saying that our religion can not stande by it selfe vnles it leane vppon the staffe of their ceremonies and perswade them selues that those were very well deuised by their Popes that they that are their ennemyes to their religion can not be without And heereuppon they take occasyon to hope that their other trumpery and baggage will in the ende come in agayne which causeth them to be more frosen in their wickednesse and shutte their eares agaynst the truth which possibly they would heare if all hope of bringing in of their Popery were cutte off And let it be obserued that through out the realme there are none that make suche clamoures and ouctryes and complayntes for these ceremonies as they and those that they suborne They pretend I confesse the Queenes maiesties Iniunctions obediēce vnto them but who is so blynde as seeth not that they haue an other meaning For I appeale vnto the consciences of all that know them whether they doe it for any obedience towardes her Maiestie whose death should be a thousande times better newes vnto them then her graces marriage There are also numbers of those which haue all antichristianitie in such detestation that they cannot abide the least scrappe of it and when they see the ministers weare them they are greeued in their heartes and they begin somewhat to feare least this communicating with the papistes in apparell shoulde make some way to those which vse them the easyer to admit other things when they should be lykewise commaunded And these brethrens myndes are not to be lightly greeued and the ministers if they thinke to profite them must cut away all occasion whereby they maye haue an euill opinion of them Seeing that therfore this kinde of ceremonies in apparel harden the harts of the papistes and cause them to be the stiffer in their poperie hinder the weake from profiting in the knowledge of the gospel greue the mindes of the godly are occasion of an euill opinion vnto them of their ministers we thincke that these ceremonies are to be remoued as not only not profitable which they oughte to be but hurtfull if not to the ministers them selues that vse them yet to their people to whome they are commaunded by God to haue regarde vnto in these thyngs that are indifferent in their owne natures Nowe I will come to that whych you set downe The places alledged by the admonition wyth others whych may be cited howsoeuer you deride them are notwithstanding probable coniectures that neither Samuell nor the apostles nor our sauioure Christ did weare any distincte apparell from others whych liued in their times For if Samuel being then the seer had had a seueral apparel whych was proper to the seers it is not like that Saule would haue asked of him selfe where hys house was And if the apostles had worne a seuerall apparell from the rest they shoulde not haue bene estemed by so generall and vncerten a note as of speaking somwhat brodely or as I may terme it Northenly for it had bene a surer note to haue sayd thou art one of hys apostles because none weareth thys apparell but his apostles where there was a great number that spake Galilcan like whych were not of hys apostles nor disciples neyther But let these goe You say our sauioure Christ had a seuerall apparell because he had a coate wythout seame Assuredly you myghte vse les scornefulnes in rehearsing of other mennes arguments if for no other cause yet for thys that they might take more pitie of youres For what an argument is this Our sauioure Christ did weare an vnder garment whych coulde not be well parted but with the spoile or marring of it therfore he ware a seuerall apparell from the rest It is true Ihon Baptist had a seuerall apparell and to helpe you so had Elias but to thys ende that bothe by hys vnwonted apparell and straunge diet whych he vsed of locustes and wilde hony the extraordinaries of his ministerie might be set forthe and the people the rather moued to enquire of hys office whome they saw to vary so much from the common custome of other men But ministers now haue no suche extraordinarie functions therfore by that reason of youres they shuld not be
can not be seuered is vsed for that that they ought not to be seuered when we say folowing S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth doe we not meane that we ought to do nothyng nor can do nothyng lawfully agaynst it And do not al men knowe when we say that a man can not be separated from hys wyfe but for the cause of adultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therfore thys is as all men may see a mere cauill and triumph ouer hys owne shadow There is no brag of suffering made by the authors of the admonition The modesty wherwith he hath defended this cause cā not be hiddē That he wold haue other men punished for wel doing when he is not content that the open wrongs whych he doth shuld be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Finally as you exhorte vs to submit our selues to good order whych haue ben alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne wyth you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and wil not suffer vs to preache so we exhorte you in Gods behalfe as you will once answere it before the iust iudge that you wil not willingly shut your eyes against the truthe that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not agaynst it Where we pray you to take heede that neyther the desire of keping your wealth and honor whych you are in nor the hope whych you maye haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by maintaining that whych you haue once set downe nor the sleighty suggestion of crafty wily papists do driue you to stomble against thys truthe of God which toucheth the gouernement of hys churche and the purging of those corruptions whych are amongste vs knowing that you can not stumble vpon the woorde of God * but forthwith you run your selfe agaynst Christ whych is the rocke And you knowe that he will not geue backe but breaketh all to fytters whatsoeuer he be that rusheth agaynst him And if the matter heerein alledged do not satisfy you then I desire euen before the same God that you confute it not by passyng ouer thyngs whych you can not answeare or by leauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansye to confute or by wrangling wyth the fault of the Printe or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sence remaineth or by alledging that such a one or such an other was of thys or that iudgement as you for the most parte hauing nothyng but hys bare name haue done All whych things you haue committed in thys boke but that you confute it by the authoritye of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by pecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities whych are extāt which are not counterfait and whych were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your doctorship or deanrye will beare out that which you can not answer your self besides that ecdicon omma is neuer shut remember M. doctor that light is come into the world men wil not be deluded with nothing nor abused wyth visards Neither let it embolden you whych peraduēture hath made you to presume the more in this boke to wryte any thing vpon hope that no man dare answer it For neither the Quenes maiesty nor her honorable coūcel as we are persuaded wil deale so sharply wyth those whom they know to be faithfull lawfull subiects whych pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedom may be powred vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion whych is in part conceyued of vs hathe growne vpon false vntrue informations which you and such other haue geuen in crying in their eares that we be anabaptists conspired with papists puretanes Donatists bringers in of cōfusion anarchie enemies to ciuil gouernment and I knowe not what euen so whē her maiesty their honors shal vnderstand how far we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs and rather esteme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now wryte then that whych other men report of vs being things which we neuer taught spake or so muche dreamed of Vnto master Doctors censures vpon the additions detractions and alterations of bothe the partes of the admonition BEsydes that oftentimes M. Doctor dothe accounte the expositions and explanations corrections he leaueth vs somewhat the les hope that he wil correct hys errors for that he pursueth the authors of the admonition so harde correcting their very smal and few slips which they haue made calling thys singulare modestye and commendable humility amongste other reproches dalying and inconstancye when it is oure profession euery day to learne better thyngs For vnto what ende should we lyue if time if experience if reading if musing if conference should teache vs nothyng And therefore when thyngs are Printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to pollish those things whych are some ▪ what rude to mitigate those things whych are to sharpe to make plaine and to geue lighte to those things whych seeme darker and to correcte that whych is a misse I thinke M. Doctor shoulde not be ignorante that wise men haue their deuteras phrontidas their seconde counsels and those also wyser and better then their first as that sentence doth declare I will therfore say no more heereof but admonishe M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whych correcte them selues seing that the best defence to hys booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting and striking out not an amending but a new making almoste of hys whole booke Other matter in hys censures he hath almost none at all worthe the answearing sauing that he hathe a place or two whych touch the matters before entreated of For whereas he accuseth the authors of the admonition in the first leafe as though they should condemne Doctors and bachellers of diuinitie and so bryng in confusion of degrees he vpon the. 5. leafe confesseth that they allowe of a Doctor Althoughe he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachelor of Diuinitie dothe not bryng in confusion nor taketh not away all degrees of schooles especially seeing they are nowe made bare names wythout any offices and oftentimes they are admitted to these degrees whych neyther can nor will teache Vnto the seconde leafe of the addition of the second parte of the admonition master D. saith that because the third to Titus maketh not against reading therfore it maketh not against reading ministers that is ministers that can doe nothyng but reade And wheras he would picke out a contradiction in the words of the admonition because they say bare