Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	know_v	scripture_n	tradition_n	2,389	5	9.3614	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45831	Rome is no rule, or, An answer to an epistle published by a Roman Catholic who stiles himself Cap. Robert Everard and may serve for an answer to two Popish treatises, the one entituled The question of questions, and the other Fiat lux, out of which books the arguments urged in the said epistle against the authority of the Scriptures and the infallibility of the Roman Church are collected : in which answer, the authority of the Scriptures is vindicated and the arguments for the Roman infallibility refuted / by J.I.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1664 (1664)	Wing I1103B; ESTC R41015	38,546	134

you say that if they were understood in the Imperative Mood they cannot work Faith in those that cannot read But then it seems they may work Faith in them that can read because as the Rhemists say they can shew both Jews and Hereticks the Truth if they search deeply and diligently But secondly How can general Councilsshew the Truth and beget Faith since if they are infallible every body cannot read their Decrees and Canons If you say they understand those Decrees and Canons by the general Consent of those that can read then by the same means may a man that cannot read the Scripture be guided by them 3 You say that by those words search the Scripture cannot be understood that the Scriptures should be our Judge and guide because then they would have excluded Christ and after him his Apostles from being the infallible means by which true Faith was to be taught to the World But how doth this follow since you say the Church under the Old Testament was a Judge and an infallible guide But did their being an infallible guide till Christ exclude Christ from being a guide and did Christs being a guide when he was on the Earth exclude the Holy Ghost from being a guide when he left the Earth In like manner it followeth not because the Scriptures of the Old Testament for of them Christ speaks in the place under debate were a guide to instruct men into the knowledge of the Messiah that they should exclude Him His Spirit or Apostles from being Guides But further it followeth by the same parity of Reason that if the Scriptures of the Old Testament could not be an infallible guide because then they would have excluded Christ and after him his Apostles from being infallible guides I say it follows by the same reason that if Christ and his Apostles were infallible Guides and Judges in matters of Faith that then they have excluded the Church of Rome from being that infallible Guide and Judge which she pretends her self to be and thus you have sharpned a Knife to cut your Mothers throat You pretend pag. 14. and say that the second Reason that is urged for sole Scripture being a guide is 2 Tim 3.15 From a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof for correction for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished to all good works This Text you say proves not what is intended viz. that the Scripture alone was the way the rule and means appointed by God to judge and decide all doubts c. your Reasons pag. 15. are First That though They might be profitable to such a man as Timothy who had faith already yet they could no way be profitable nor useful to one that had not faith or did not believe them to be the Word of God for Faith comes by hearing not by reading To which I answer First If the Scriptures are not a Guide to them that believe not why do the Rhemists say that the reason why Jews and Hereticks do not finde Christ to be their King Lord Life and Saviour is because they did not search the Scriptures deeply Surely you will not say that Jews and Hereticks are Believers and you say they are no guide to Unbelievers why then do the Rhemists say Christ reprehended them for not fearching the Scriptures deeply To what purpose then are Jews and Hereticks blamed for not searching the Scriptures deeply if the Scriptures had been as you say no way profitable to them but further you say they are not profitable to them that do not believe them to be the word of God Suppose this were granted which cannot be proved doth it not follow that your Roman Church by the same reason is no way profitable no way a Judge nor an infallible Guide to any that do not believe her to be so and by the same reason an Atheist may say All gods providences are no monitors to him All his judgements are no examples to him because cause he doth not believe there is a God Is not this as good Logick as to say the Scriptures are no way profitable to them that do not believe them to be the Word of God You proceed to give another reason why this Scripture 2 Tim. 3.15 is not a proof for what is pretended because then if the Scriptures more solely sufficient which Timothy knew from a child they being but the Scriptures of the Old ●estam●nt it would follow that Christ and the Now Testament and the Sacraments and the Apostles are at least not necessary I answer if by the Scriptures sole sufficiency you mean that they are sufficient to bring men to salvation without Faith Repentance and Obedience then this is a Puppit of your own as you Phrase it for where is there any Protestant of that mind therefore you do but bark against the Moon But we say they are solely sufficient to direct us to those ways by which we may obtain salvation But then say you What needed Christ and the Apostles and the New Testament if the Scriptures Timothy had learned which were those of the Old Testament were sufficient But then I answer as before if Christ and the Apostles were solely sufficient what need is there of your Pope and Council So that by this Argument you either make Christ and his Apostles not solely sufficient or if they were then what need this waste of a General Council But you may say that a General Council was to direct people in succeeding Ages So were the Scriptures much rather for whatever was written aforetime was written for our Learning upon whom the ends of the World are come In the last place you say pag. 15. The word All Scripture must either signifie every Scripture as the Original word 〈◊〉 ought to be rendred or All Scriptures that ever were or All Scriptures that were when this Text was written or All that we now have If it be to be understood of every Scripture or any Scripture then you say it doth prove too much because then all the Scriptures save one Book are useless Though what hath been said doth sufficiently answer this innumeration and therefore I might be excused from answering any farther yet because you intimate a farther proof of what you now urge I shall therefore when I meet with it give a further Answer You come in the 16 page to tell your Reader That you met with no Arguments for the sole sufficiency of Scripture among those that were usually urged and therefore you resolved to see what could be said against this common General opinion of all who oppose the Church of Rome why the Scriptures could not be this Rule and Judge You say you have not met with any Arguments to prove the sole sufficiency of Scripture to be

your negative positions viz. That the private spirit Reason and Scripture is not the sole Judge you come to infer from the whole That the Catholick Church is this judge and that God had alwayes such a Church This you endeavour to make good by saying God had such a Church Two Thousand Years before any Scripture was written And to demonstrate this you say Circumcision was brought in by Abraham and practised by the Church without Scripture to try it by c. I Answer first If the Pope will bring in any new Law or Canon with that Authority as Abraham brought in Circumcision we will believe him without a Council or desiring him to prove it by Scripture But Secondly It seems here is some other Rule and Guide beside Reason Scripture the private Spirit and the Church for here is no Council to decree Circumcision nor private spirit to suggest it nor reason to contrive it But here is God appearing to Abraham and commanding it by an immediate voice from Heaven So that this was Gods way of guiding his People then and not by General Councils and of this opinion is Chrysostome Hom. 1. in Mat. who conceives God might use other means and this agrees with that saying Heb. 1.1 God in sundry times and in diverse manners spake to our Fathers by the Prophets Lastly If the Scriptures are lyable to many exceptions as you say by which they are rendred uncapable of being our infallible Guide then I demand how you know what was transacted in the World the first 2000 Years and whether there was any Church at all in those times If you say you are by the Hystory of the Scriptures guided to believe what was done 2000 Years before the first Pen-man was born I demand how you can believe this since they are so fallibly and subject to so many exceptions as you say But further may I not with more certitude believe what Moses and all the Pen-men of Holy Scriptures writ of things they were eye-witnesses of then you can be of what Moses writ the first 2000 Years that were expired before he was born You come in pag. 27 to a second Argument Namely That the Church of the Jews were so the Jews I suppose you mean an infallible guide after the Scriptures were written and for this purpose you cite Deut. 17.8 The man that will do presumptiously and will not hearken to the voice of the Priest or unto the Judge that man shall dye I answer The Scripture saith Pro. 16.10 A divine sentence is in the lips of the King his mouth transgresseth not in judgement Doth it follow from hence that all Kings are infallible in their judgments But how and by what Rule were these priests to judge whom the People were to obey upon pain of death Ezekiel tells us Chap. 44.24 And in Controversie they shall stand in judgement and they shall judge it according to my Judgement they shall keep my Lawes and Statutes in all their Assemblies and hollow my Sabbaths But did these Priests and Judges always judge according to Gods Law were they always infallible in their Sentences How comes it to pass then that Aaron sinned in hearkening to the voice of the People when they required him to make them a Calf Exod. 32.2 and v. 7. It is said They had corrupted themselves Where was this Churches infallibility at this time and v. 8. They turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them And again where was the infallibility of the Priest when he appointed them v. 3. To break off their earing which were in their eares to make a Calf Surely in this they were an excellent type of the Romane Church who were quickly corrupted from their Primitive Purity Again Ezek. 22.26 It is said The Priests have violated my Law they have prophaned my Holy things they have put no difference between the Holy and Prophane neither have they shewed difference between the Clean and the unclean and have hid their eyes from my Sabbath and I am prophaned among them Neither was this the fault or a few but the Text tells us v. 30. That God sought for a Man among them that should make up the hedge and stand in the gap before him for the land but he found none Where was the Priest and the infallible church all this while whom the People were to hear upon paine of death So that the Text by you cited Deut. 17. is abused for they had plain Laws written which were to be a guide to Priest and People which if the Priest did not judge accordingly as many times they did not the People were not to hear them Your other Text is Mat. 23.2 3. the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses Chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do I Answer If by sitting in Moses's chair you understand their teaching the People according to Moses Law we are of your mind for so it appears in the forecited Text in Ezekiel and in all such things the People were to hearken to them But if by sitting in Moses Chair you understand their Publick Authority and that whatsoever they so taught was infallible This I deny for they did sometimes like the Pope Mark 7.7 Teach for Doctrines the Commandments of men and v. 8. Laid aside the Commandments of God as you do the Scriptures that they might hold the traditions of men and v. 13. Made the Word of God of none effect by their traditions But if the Church of the Jews which was represented in the great Synedrion could not erre then it followeth that all Christian Religion must be discarded For if she was infallible in that judgment she made of Christ and his Doctrine then there remains nothing but that we renounce both him and it and turn either Jews or Pagans But lastly It appears that Christ himself had not this opinion of the infallibility of the Jewish Church which you have because then he should have referred all he taught to be decided by them whether it were true or no. But instead thereof he appeals to the Scriptures and offers Himself and his Doctrine as we do at this day to stand or fall by their verdict and to their Authority of the Church he opposeth that of the Scripture to which he knew the other ought to give place John 5.39.46 Mat. 22.42 43 44. Luke 24.27 You come in the third place in p. 27.28 to prove that there shall be an infallible Church under the New Testament your Texts are Esay 2.23 3. Esay 35.8.54.3.13 17. Esay 59.21 Esay 60.10 12. To which I answer First Why are these Texts brought to prove an infallible Church when the Texts themselves you say are no infallible guide how then can they guide us to your infallible Church But 2. How doth it appear that these Texts are to be applied to the Church of the New Testament Much less doth it appear that they are to be applyed to your Roman Church 3

he cannot reclaim him he must tell the Church which cannot be understood for any but that particular Church among whom he resides which you say are such as may err in judgment 3 By the same parity of reason a single private man cannot err because the Text saith he ought to be heard if he admonish his brother of his fault ver 15 16 17. and that it is his brothers sin if he do not hear him and the Text further saith If his brother do hear him that he hath gained his brother But if this brother might err then he might err in admonishing and the admonished person in stead of being gained to the Truth might be gained to an errour This is the sum of your Argument I am to hear the Church therefore the Church cannot err might you not as Logically infer that because I am to hear a single private brother therefore a single private brother cannot err and by this you would make all the Sons of your Church infallible like the Pope your Father and by this rule Parents are infallible because they must be heard by their children Your next Scriptures are Mat. 28.20 Lo I am with you always to the end of the world and Joh. 24.16 I will pray the Father and he will send you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever even the Spirit of Truth which the World cannot receive and ver 26. The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost which the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things and bring all things into your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you and Chap. 16.17 I have many things to say unto you but you cannot hear them now howbeit when the Spirit of Truth is come he will guide you into all Truth From which you infer that if Christ and his Spirit should be with his Apostles for ever to lead them into all Truth it follows they shall be preserved from all errour To which I answer 1. That this Text in St. Mathew cannot be a good argument for you because you say you have lost the Original of St. Mathews Gospel and cannot tell whether he that did translate it was an honest man or no. 2 The Spirit of Christ might preserve the Apostles from all Errour and yet not be engaged to secure the Church from erring to the end of the World But 3 I answer further If this promise was made that the Holy Spirit should lead the Church in all Ages into all Truth it doth not follow as I have said that it should lead them irresistably though it might lead them sufficiently But 4. May I not as well infer that because the Spirit was promised to convince the World of sin because they believe not in Christ that therefore all the world cannot be but effectually and irresistably convinced as you may say that because the Spirit is promised to lead into all Truth that therefore the Church cannot err but must be effectually so led 5 It is called the Spirit of Truth which the World cannot receive meaning notorious and wicked men Now then this Spirit some of those Popes which you call the Apostles successors could not have because many of them have been notoriously and confessedly wicked all which doth plainly shew that this promise of the Spirit was made to direct and guide us into a further knowledge of the Truth till we come to be perfect in Christ upon condition that we are faithful in what we already know Like unto that promise Joh. 17.17 If any man do his will he shall know of his doctrine and to this agrees the Rhemi●● Testament translating that Text of John 14.15 16. If you love me keep my comandements and I will pray the Father and he will give you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for ever Now how can I be infallible that the Pope is thus guided unless I do infallibly know that he loves God and keeps his Commandements 6 You say 〈◊〉 into all Truth implies preserving from all errour but this follow not not more then because the Scriptures say Gods goodness leads to Repentance that therefore all men should be preserved from impenitency And lastly If leading into all truth implies preserving from all Error how comes it to pass that since your Church as you say is an infallible guide into all Truth that she doth not preserve all her sons from all Errour And if you shall say see doth guide them all sufficiently though not efficiently although that be false yet you have answered your self For though Gods Spirit and goodness be sufficient to lead to Truth and Repentance yet it doth not follow but there are as sad experience teacheth multitudes of erring and impenitent persons Your next Text is Ephes 4.11 He gave some Prophets some Evangelists some Pastors and some Teachers for perfecting the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying the body of Christ till we come in the union of the faith and ver 14. that we be no more children in understanding c. From which Text you would prove that the succession of the Apostles in the Church was to preserve people from being tossed to and fro with every wind of Doctrine but what then doth this prove the Church cannot err This means was used by God for the perfecting of Saints and yet we see that they are full of imperfections Thus God may teach and the Church not learn Gods Spirit may lead and the Church like Rome may be refractory Your last Text is 1 Tim. 3.15 The Church of the living God the Pillar and ground of Trust. Hence you would infer that the Church cannot err because we may securely relye upon her as upon a Pillar To which I answer That these words do not respect the universal Church as you would have it but the particular Church which Timothy had the oversight of in which Paul admonisheth him how he should behave himself But 2. If this were granted that the universal Church is here meant and not a particular Church I answer that this proves nothing to your purpose because Churches and People receive their denomination ordinarily from what they should be in point of Duty and not from what they are by necessity Thus the Disciples are called the Salt of the Earth because they were in duty to be so and not that there was a necessity that they could not have been otherwise else it had been in vain to threaten them that if they lost their savour they should be good for nothing but to be trodden under foot In like manner the Church is the Pillar of Truth and ground of in point of Duty and yet this doth not hinder but she may neglect and violate this Duty and become the Teacher of Errour But lastly The Church may be the Pillar and Ground of Truth not only because she should be so but because in all Ages she is so in that she teacheth and maintaineth