supposed to be deliuered and commended to vs by none but them These words though they seeme plaine haue some doubt which somewhat quaileth the force of them for it is not so easie to know whether ab ipsis should be referred to Apostolorum or posterorum howbeit I say further that the Traditions that Augustine speaks of are of the same nature with that one Tradition which he treats of in those Bookes against the Donatists namely the not rebaptizing of Heretickes which though it bee not expresly and explicately set downe in the writings of the Apostles yet Austine himselfe knew it might be soundly deduced out of the Scriptures and so hee testifieth almost in euerie Booke of that worke against the Donatists Haeres 75. The other place which he alleageth out of Austine sspeaks of a Tradition indeed but it was a Tradition of the Fathers not of the Apostles and euen so saith Epiphanius of the very same tradition Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta the Church doth this by a tradition receiued from the Fathers In Philip. homil 3. And therefore Chrysostome went too farre when he sayth Ab Apostolis sancitum est it is decreed by the Apostles but though there be places of good shew in Chrysostome yet your Papist could say no more but that hee citeth a place out of the Canons of the Apostles and yet quoteth neither Booke Chapter leafe nor Homily where a man may finde it in Chrysostomes workes howbeit if hee meane the Apostles Constitutions he hath his answeare if those Canons that be set downe in the first booke of Councels I say they neuer sawe any of the Apostles but were begotten in later times as it is most cleere in the Canons themselues Can. 8. Si quis Episcopus aut presbyter aut Diaconus sanctum paschae diemante vernale aequinoctium ex Iudaeis celebrauerit abijciatur If any either Bishop or Priest or Deacon shall according to the manner of the Iewes celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernall equinoctiall let him be deposed If this had been inacted by the Apostles it may bee wondred how there could be such adoe about the feast of Easter betweene the East and West Churches the whole matter being so cleerely decided aforehand by the Apostles themselues Againe when we read in another Canon Can. 30. that such Bishops as came by their Bishoprickes by secular Princes should be deposed it is easily seene that some of these Canons were not shot off till the time of Christian Magistrates for Infidels I trow vsed not to giue Bishopricks neither was there euer any so farre beside himselfe as to seeke a Bishopricke by their meanes if this will not content your Papist then let him shew me some reason why these Canons are not set downe as a part of the new Testament but marked by Pope Gelasius for apochryphall Apud Gratian distinct 15. C. Rom. Ecclesia and then I will consider whether it bee needfull to giue him another answere Thus haue I runne ouer the choisest testimonies that hee could finde in all the ancient Fathers and Doctors for if hee could alleage all as it were with one mouth to speake for his blinde Traditions as here he bragges it is to be thought that either he hath chosē the best or els that he hath no iudgment as for Saint Iohns Gospell beside the Maiestie of the stile let him read Epiphanius against the Alogians and there hee shall finde some better proofes for the confirmation and defence of it than the testimonie and consent of antiquitie Nowe touching his Dilemma which hee takes to be so intricate a verie childe may easily dissolue it for wee doe not hold that any thing can make a damned hereticke but the stiffe and peruerse holding and auouching of such doctrine as is contrarie or inconsonant to the holy Scriptures whereof the Fathers are not guiltie neither will any Papist at this day stand in defence of such Traditions as agree not with the word written The Dialogue Sectio IIII. PRo Your learning I confesse is farre beyond mine yet if you will giue mee leaue to presse you with your own argument I doubt not but I shall compell you to make such an answere as may serue vs both Pap. Take your course Pro. You shall finde in Epiphanius Haeres 73. that the Apostles did ordaine that the Wednesdaies should bee fasted through the whole yeere except in the feast of Pentecost and that sixe dayes before Easter no sustenance should be receiued but salt bread and water Now if you doe thinke that these Traditions were left by the Apostles why doe you not obserue them and why doe you seeke to lay a burden vpon vs which you do refuse to beare your selfe Pap. You must vnderstand that from the first planting of the Church many thinges taught and deliuered by the Apostles haue béen altered and taken away partly by the Apostles themselues and partly a Then were their Successors ouer-sawcie vnlesse they had warrant in the Scripture so to doe by their Successors as the alteration of times and euents haue giuen occasion to alter or take them away for the good of the Church as the communitie of all things practised and allowed by the Apostles the office of b They were men as well as widow womē Rom. 12.8 Widdowes instituted by the Apostles the prohibition of eating of blood decréed by the Apostles the antiquitie did fast vppon the Euens of solemne Festiuall dayes and watch in the nights as the name Vigilia yet remaining doth testifie but when an abuse was perceiued to growe therby the watching was taken away the fasting being continued practised in the Church at this day August ad frat in Eremo Serm. 25. We might giue like instances of the Sundaies in Lent which were not fasted in ancient times with the Wednesdayes fast by you alleaged out of Epiphanius and many such like too long to repeat Out of which we gather with the Bée that the Apostles did ordaine many things in the Church which it is lawfull for themseleus c How prooue you their Successors might doe it and their Successors to alter or take away when time and occasion should require it for the good of the Church but if wée shall gather hereof that because the Church vpon graue deliberation hath taken away some d VVhat bee those things things deliuered by the Apostles that therefore Iohn Caluin or any other priuate man may at his pleasure reiect other some we shal sucke poyson with the Spider if I should argue with you that because you doe reiect the Wednesdayes fast which was e VVe heare you say so a Tradition of the Apostles that therefore wee may reiect the obseruation of the Sunday it would séeme but a weake argument although you could be content to confesse that the obseruation of Sunday is grounded onely vppon the Tradition of the Church which to doe were lesse shame
father that euer put penne to paper namely they a Luk. 16.29 31. haue Moses and the Prophets let them heare them And againe if they heare not Moses and the Prophets neither will they bee perswaded though one rise from the dead What will the Papists nay what can they or any man else liuing say to this will they tell vs that Moses and the prophets be hard to vnderstand and that they containe not an absolute and full doctrine of life and death vnlesse they be peeced out with traditions I am sure the rich glutton in hel durst not say so much yet it is to be presumed that he would haue sayd so if he had not vnderstood that it was not worth the propoūding in Abrahams presence thus much hee was bold to reply to the first part of Abrahams speech nay father Abraham but if one come to my brethren frō the dead they wil amēd their liues but the second part which exclusiuely refers them to Moses and the Prophets doth so stop his mouth that hee had no whit further to plead for his owne brethren It may be maruailed that he spake nothing neither of the imperfection of the scripture nor of Iewish traditions nor any such thing but only of such apparitions from the dead verily if any such plea had been of any moment hee would not haue fayled to doe his best endeauour for his brethren and to put Abraham in mind of the imperfection of his answere Howbeit that which he then durst not doe is thinking it to be little worth is now propounded and vrged by the Papists the Sonnes and heires of the rich Glutton who euen in despight of Abraham presume to reply that it is not inough to heare Moses and the Prophets and that they will heare such as rise from the dead Oh take heede of such desperate fellowes as these be that regard not the doctrine of Abraham and make themselues wiser now in shifting off the force of his speech than Hell it selfe was in the dayes of our Sauiour belike hell was not so wise then as it is now for now our Popish Gluttons can tell vs new tales of the darkenes of the imperfectnes of the ambiguitie of the corruptions of the Scripture they can prate of traditions and vnwritten verities which are not to bee found in Moses and the Prophets howbeit let him that hath any regard of his saluation consider with himselfe whether is the surer and the safer way to beleeue them or to beleeue Abraham for it is impossible to beleeue both Captaine Stapleton b Lib. 12. Cap. 8. tels vs after this wise manner that it is one thinge to heare Moses and the Prophets which Abraham requireth and another thing to heare them onely but what doth hee else in so doing but shew himselfe more impudent than the Deuil who when our Sauiour saith in Mathew c Math. 4.10 Luk. 4.8 It is written thou shalt worship thy lord thy God him only shalt thou serue durst not be so sawcie as to tell him that it is one thing to serue God as it is commaunded in d Deut. 6.13 10.20 Deuteronomie and another thing to serue him onely I am sure Cyprian e Lib. 2. epist 3. where God himselfe from heauen f Math. 17 5. saith Ipsum audite is bold to adde the word solum twise together in one place yet neuer durst any quarrelling hereticke tell Cyprian as Stapleton tels vs Aliud est Mosen Prophetas audire aliud solos audire It is one thing to heare them and another thing to heare them onely but to bee short doe but looke the words of Abraham g Cap. 16.29.31 in Saint Lukes Gospell and consider of the circumstances with an vpright religious heart and then blame me if thou finde not that the word onely may as rightly be added here in Luke as either Christ or Cyprian haue added it in Mathew Stapleton goeth on still and beareth vs in hand against Abraham that if Moses and the Prophets were onely to bee heard then the new Testament should be excluded as superfluous but by Stapletons good leaue that 's neither so nor so for h Deut. 18 15. Moses himselfe willeth vs to heare Christ in all things whatsoeuer he should say vnto vs so doth i Act. 3.22 Peter teach vs out of Moses and k Act. 7.37 Saint Stephen likewise witnesseth that Moses sayd vnto the children of Israel that the lord their God shuld raise vp vnto them a Prophet whō they shuld heare therfore Moses in the old Testament hath taught vs to heare Christ in the new and if thou make question of the writings of the Apostles l 2. cor 5.19.20 Paul saith they were the Ambassadors of Christ and preached the word of reconciliation in Christs stead if this yet stop not Stapletons mouth then let him know that the new Testament is not an addition but an exposition of the old but such an exposition as all the world together could not haue made without the extraordinarie inspiration of the spirite of Christ and heere for the full determination of this point hearken I pray thee what their owne Lyranus tels them in his Cōmentaries vpon Luke Habent Mosen qui docuit moralia agenda habent prophetas qui docuerunt mystica credenda ista sufficiunt ad salutem ideò sequitur audiant illos They haue Moses saith hee who hath taught morall things that ought to be done they haue the Prophets who haue taught mysticall things that ought to be beleeued and these be sufficient to saluation therefore it followeth heare them Thus is the doctrine of insufficiencie of the scripture and necessitie of Traditions condemned to death and must goe to the place of execution vnlesse a better pardon bee sued out for it than any that euer I could yet see registred in their Popish Cronicles howbeit wee haue not yet done with this question of traditions for there is no man so carelesse of his saluation that will set vp an Altar to these vnknowne fictions as a Act. 17.23 the Athenians did to the vnknowne God before he know how many they bee how few they be what they be and so consider with himselfe deliberately whether they be fish or flesh or good red herring herein then we call vpon them for resolution and it is good reason wee should so doe till we know whether they dreame or lye waking This makes a sort of them to vncase slouens absurdly to confesse themselues to be no better than heretickes b Lib. 3. ca. 3. fund 4. Canus a great Papist tels vs out of Origen and Hilarie that Moses did not write the secrecies of the law but deliuered them to Ioshua by Tradition and so infers that the Apostles committed the secrecies of the Gospel by tradition to a few wise and perfect men And Bellarmine as great a Papist as liues this day c Bellar. de
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
Then were they good arguments verie same arguments for the maintenance of his Heresie that the Protestants Puritanes of this time do for confutation whereof this ancient Father vseth none other c His confutation is so much the worse argument but the Tradition and continuall practise of the Church I am sure although you doe d VVho told you so exclude out of your Church Epiphanius and all other ancient Fathers yet Aerius shall be receiued and entertained as an ancient and principall pillar thereof but be ye well aduised before you put him into your Kalender for he was also an e That 's not so soone prooued for Austine followed Epiphanius the first and onely author of it Arian hereticke as Saint Augustine recordeth but whatsoeuer he holdeth else it sufficeth if he iumpe with you in any thing against the Catholicke The Answere HEere comes in Epiphanius and the hereticke Aerius once againe to walke a turne or two vpon the stage howbeit it may well be doubted by what authoritie Aerius was dubbed an hereticke I am sure Mich. Medina a stout Papist saith De Sacr. homi orig conti lib. 1. cap. 5. that Ierom Ambrose Austine Sedutius Primasius Chrysostome Theodoret Aecumenius and Theophilact were of his opinion in the equalitie of ministers Againe Aerius was enemy to Eustathius an Arian and therfore if he had any desire to remooue him out of his Bishopricke Haeres 75. and to sit himselfe in his roome as Epiphanius reporteth there is no likelihood that hee would be an Arian himselfe but keepe himselfe cleere to accuse and condemne Eustathius of so capitall an heresie Againe the opinion of fasting vpon Sunday and condemning ordinary and set fasting dayes Lib. 2. cap. 33. is attributed to Eustathius in Socrates storie where wee read also that hee was twise condemned once in the councell of Caesarea Cappadociae by his owne father Eueanius and againe the second time in the Councell of Gangra in Paph agonia wherefore I perswade my selfe that Epiphanius mistooke iust reprehension for emulation and charged Aerius with the faults of Eustathius a double condemned hereticke and as very a Papist as euer Aerius was a Puritane Nuptias fieri prohibuit à cibis abstinendum docuit nonnullos qui nuptias contraxerant à connubio segregauit seruos simulatione pietatis dominis abstraxit benedictionem communionem presbyteri habentis vxorem tanquam scelus declinandum praecepit c. He forbad marriage taught to abstaine from meates some that had bene married he separated he drew seruants from their masters vnder colour of pietie he commanded to shunne that blessing and communion of an Elder that had a wife of an hainous wickednesse Call you not this papistrie call it what you will I am sure it is so and it is heresie too Concil Gangr by your leaue if a nathemasit pronounced by a lawfull Councell be sufficient to make an heresie shew me the like euidence against Aerius and I will confesse him to be an hereticke otherwise I must craue leaue to say of Epiphanius as Austine doth of Philastrius In praesat libri de haeres ad quod Multas assertiones inter haereses numerauit quae haereses non sunt Many assertions he counted for heresies which were not heresies Nay I will be bold to say further Multas assertiones haereses non numerauit quae haereses sunt Many assertions he counted not heresies which are heresies For he hath wittingly concealed the assertions of Eustathius 1. Tim. 4.1.3 which Paul cals doctrines of deuils Now to the Tradition which Epiphanius bringeth for praier for the dead I say in a word it is accepta à patribus i Receiued frō the Fathers not from the Apostles not ab Apostolis and therefore it hath no further credit then man can giue it yet notwithstanding prayer was then made not after the Popish fashion to ease the dead of the paines and torments of purgatorie but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing but liue and haue their being with the Lord which knockes out the braines of purgatorie for if men ought to beleeue that the dead for whom prayer is made doe viuere apud dominum Epiph. ibidem haeres 75. then may we not thinke that they doe viuere apud inferos in purgatorie but Epiphanius helps you with better store of reasons you heard the first namely quod credant mortuos esse viuere apud dominum That they beleeue that the dead are aliue with the Lord. The second Quod spes sit orantibus profratribus velut qui in peregrinatione sint That there is hope to them which pray for their brethren as to them which want in trauailing The third Quo id quod perfectius est significetur To the end that which is more perfect may be signified The fourth Vt Dominum Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separent that they may separate the Lord Iesus from the order and state of bare men The fifth Vt adorationem domino praestent That they may yeeld adoration to the Lord. The sixt and last he sets downe in the words wee haue in hand Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta The Church doth this by tradition receiued from the fathers Howbeit the fathers tradition was no more but memoriam facite keepe a memory Lib. 1. epist 9. et lib. 3. epist 3. As we may see euidently in Cyprian whereunto was added by further curiositie Misericordiam Dei implorate Begge mercy of God And at length Masses and Indulgences and oblations and satisfactions and a whole flood of pickepurse inuentiōs yea but may it be said memoriam facite is little worth without misericordiam implorate yes by your leaue for so the Church thought good to animate and incourage the liuing to stand constant in persecution and not to reuolt for feare from Christian profession and touching the crauing of mercy for sinners departed which the Church vsed to doe most were in Epiphanius time you heard before all the reasons that Epiphanius could yeeld and if you looke for more or better you must search else where for Epiphanius cannot helpe you but hurt you for when he saith preces prosunt etsi totam culpam non abscindant prayers profit though they cut not off the whole fault He marres the fashion of purgatory where sinnes are not forgiuen but punished to be short if you peruse the words of Aerius you shall soone find that he neuer heard of purgatorian doctrine for when he obiecteth that if prayer profite the dead men need not liue godly or doe any good thing in their life time but purchase friends to pray that their incurable sinnes may bee layd to their charge it is most cleere hee knew not that prayer is not auaileable where there is no former merite and that veniall not mortall or incurable sinnes are purged by the suffrages of the liuing The
being as the Angels of God is not there spoken of onely in regard of not marrying but also in regard of not dying Cap. 20.36 as Saint Luke expoundeth it looke the Bible ouer and ouer and you shall neuer read that Angels refused man or womans fellowship because they were married or accepted of it because they were vnmarried and single and therefore these vehement speeches of the ancient Fathers especially Chrysostome may not be racked to the vttermost but charitably and friendly construed to the best Chrysostome here in his vehemencie goeth beyond measure in reprehending the Christians of his time in their lightnesse went beyond measure in vowing yet the East-Church then neuer exacted any such promise or vow but left euerie Christian man and woman to their owne libertie Socrat. histor lib. 5. cap. 21. Illustres presbyteri in Oriente Episcopi etiam modo ipsi volluerint nulla lege coacti ab vxoribus abstinent nam non pauci ipsorum dum Episcopatum gerunt etiam liberos ex vxore legitima procreant Famous Ministers in the east yea and Bishops also are not compelled by any law to abstaine from wiues for many of them euen when they are Bishops doe beget children of a lawfull wife Well but what 's that charitable construction you speake of I pray you let vs heare it and so an end Content Chrysostome saith that such marriage is worse than adulterie and Austine saith as much yet Austine expoundeth himselfe presently in the same place De bono viduit cap. 9. saying Non quod ipsae nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur daemnatur propositi fraus damnatur fracta voti fides c. Not that the verie marriages euen of such men as ought to be iudged damnable their deceitfull purpose is damnable the breach of their vow is damnable And againe Damnantur tales non quia coniugalem fidem posterius inierunt sed quia continentiae primam fidem irritam faecerunt Such are condemned not because they did afterward enter into the state of mariage but because they brake their former vowe of continencie You see heere howe Austine expoundeth himselfe and therefore if wee charitably expound Chrysostome after the same manner we haue as good warrant as Austine can giue vs neuerthelesse to speake yet more precisely wee may not take the breach of faith to be so great a sinne as the giuing of it vnaduisedly beyond our strength if a man should vow to fast bread and water all the dayes of his life and afterward feeling his strength to faile should fall to better fare for the recouerie of the same there is no reasonable man that will find fault with him for breaking that yoake of bondage at the last but for thrusting his necke vnto it at the first Si quis castitatem promiserit seruare non poterit In Leuit. lib. 3 pronunciet peccatum suum saith Cirill in one place If any man haue promised continencie and cannot keepe it let him confesse his sinne But he saith againe in another place In Leuit. lib. 16. Oportet commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate huiusmodi qui non possunt capere sermonem de castitate concedere nuptias We must measure the doctrine according to mens strength and graunt marriage to such as cannot receiue that doctrine of continencie The Dialogue Sectio XXII EPiphanius Quae enim ad sacerdotium tradita sunt propter eminentiam celebrationis sactorum ea ad omnes aequaliter ferri putauerunt c. Those traditions which were deliuered peculiarly for the Clergie by reason of their a None more supereminent than the Apostles who were married men so was Peter himselfe supreminencie in the celebration of the diuine mysterie these heretickes would haue all men tyed vnto when they did heare that a Bishop ought to be vnreprooueable the husband of one wife and continent and likewise of Deacons and Priests for in truth since the comming of Christ the Doctrine b VVhere is it forbidden in all the new testament of the Gospell doth not admit into these offices any that haue married a second wife by reason of the excellent dignitie of priesthood and this holy c But either Churches obserued it not as appeareth in Tertullian De Monog church doth sincerely obserue yet doth not the church admit any into those Offices that is the husband but of one wife whose wife is yet liuing with him in the fellowship of marriage but him onely d Here Epiphanius is fasly translated that Epiphanius might not seeme vnreasonable that either was neuer married or that after the death of his first wife liueth vnmarried the church receiueth into the office of a Deacon Priest Bishop or Subdeacon which is especially obserued where the Ecclesiasticall Canons e There is smal sinceritie in such Canons are sincerely kept but thou wilt say vnto me that in many places Priests and Deacons doe liue in wedlocke but this is not according to the sinceritie of the Canons c. Thus haue I f You must search better or you will neuer finde it searched and as I hope made sensible the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen to your owne cause by fashioning vnto your selues such an imaginarie and mathematicall Church as all the g They acknowledged no other ancient Fathers and Doctors of the Church did neuer know nor acknowledge whereupon it will follow if that out of the Church as out of the Arke there bée no saluation that all these reuerend Fathers and Doctors were heretickes and are damned Spirits or else that you be heretickes your selues The Answere EPiphanius comes in now to tell his tale and our Papist bearing good will to traditions englisheth quae tradita sunt which were deliuered those traditions which were deliuered and yet when all comes to all those traditions are found in Paul to Timothie and Titus and they are as cleere against the necessitie of single life in a Bishop as can be desired Paul saith a Bishop must be the husband of no more but one wife at once Cap. 3.2 Tit. 1.5.6 for that 's his meaning in the first to Timothie Now in the Epistle to Titus he willeth Titus to ordaine Elders in euerie Citie such as hee found irreprooueable the husbands of one wife c. euidently teaching vs that marriage was then no barre against being a Bishop or a Minister of the Gospell and so saith Chrysostome Ita pretiosa res est vt cum ipsa etiam possit quis ad sanctum Episcopatus solium subuehi In Tit. Serm. 2 It is so precious a thing that a man with it may be aduanced to the seat of a Bishop Againe hee translates qui abvna continuit which hath contained from one him onely that was neuer married adding the word onely to the text and peruerting the meaning of Epiphanius who thought it commendable for a man to renounce his wife ob
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
the vngodlie wee aske we obtaine The Dialogue Sectio XXVII ANd here will I make and end referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken to your better censure and further consideration whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ and that you are also a member of the same yet a No such matter it is but the vanitie of your conceit must you be inforced to graunt that all the ancient fathers before mentioned were hereticks and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so ofteÌ„ in their writings b Paul saith that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised but let vs admit although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c VVe goe by truth not by imagination imagined for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours could vpon d We doe not imagine so for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane but by lâ—tle and litle irremarkeably as weeds vse to grow among thâ— good coâ—ne a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies or how can we e VVho bids you imagine so but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed 2. Thes 2.3 imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world as that none of the said papisticall doctors who wrote against all those by the name of heretickes which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks nor your doctrine Catholicke termed Catholicke could heare of them or that in all that time no generall Councell who were gathered together from all parts of the world should receiue intelligence g No Chur h had any being then but ours onely of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner which if either any of the said doctors or any of those general Councels had done h Non sequitur we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead c. he was i Full simply and full little to your credit but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes confuted by Epiphanius and afterward by S. Austine when the reall presence was k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde before your Lateran councels first impugned the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane and so of other of your opinions as they sprang vp in latter yeeres but a Protestant religion such as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l A foule vntruth without either gaâ—d or welt but in England onely And Puritany such m They professe no such matter as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world so that it is n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is a religion and a church as yet in imagination onely for although Puritanes o you haue cause to loue them the better for in so doing they resemble you Papists doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture as before I haue sufficiently prooued There was neuer heresie in the world but you shall reade when it first sprang vp how it grew and increased and when it was cut downe and withered away you shall neuer p you may read in Paul when it first sprang and when it shal be cut downe 2. Thes 2 7 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang it hath for these 1300. yéeres by q VVe confesse no such matter your own confession increased and florished it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion is r But by your leaue we must doubt of it or rather be out of doubt it is not no doubt the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh saying And there shall be a path and a way and it shall be called the holy way and it shall be to you so direct and plaine as fooles shall not be able to erre therein Contrariwise you shall Å¿ In the Bible reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp who were the fathers thereof and it hath béene t The more to blame they that did it cut so oft as it hath reuiued so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies you can shew no succession of bishops no myracles no u These be stale prattlements of no weight beseeming such vain ianglers martyrs nor name any one member of your Church before Iohn Caluin for although Wickliffe Husse and Luther with the Waldenses and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane and so none of your Church and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth wherein there is x VVe haue the holy word of God to giue vs light and to guide vs cursed be he that lookes for better direction Amen no light no path no compasse or guide to direct your course The Answere HEere this man would make an end if hee could tell how but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe Sect. 5. alibi and therefore though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence yet somewhat more would bee added in this place
the contrary Pa. It fareth with you in this businesse much like as with a man that hath lost his way who the more hée bestirreth himselfe the further hee is from the end of his iourney your heresie hath beene pursued and chased through all the doubles windinges which it can possibly imagine and is now retyred like a crafty foxe into the burrow where it was first littered bredde which is the iudgement and censure of humane reason whereunto as vnto a supreame iudge it doth now appeale from the authoritie of c Non potest per vllam Scripturam probari Roffensis contra captiuit Babiloni i. It cannot be proued by any scripture scriptures fathers and Councels and surely this is the very fountaine and seminary of all atheisme heresye for if I should labor to instruct an Infidell in the principall points of christian religion as the resurrection of the very same bodies after they bée consumed to dust ashes that the Father is God the Sonne God and the holy Ghost God and yet that they thrée are but one God without confounding of the persons that the Sonne is eternall and yet begotten of his father that d I maruell how this can he shewed to be a principall point of christian religion Christ came in vnto his disciples the e Are the Protestants hereticks for so interpreting what if he came in at the window or chimney or louer hole Non dicitur quod intrauit per ianuas clausas c vide Durand lib. 4. dist 44. q. 6. 1. It is not said that he entered by the doore being shut doores being shut not as the Protestants interpret the doores opening vnto him but after a miraculous and supernatural manner as S. Austine expoundeth it Tractatu 121. euangelij S. Iohannis all which is as contrary to the capacitie of humane reason as the reall presence in the sacrament if the Infidell in this case should appeale vnto the same iudges might he not with the same reason and by the iudgement of the same arbitrators as well reiect these and many like articles of our christian faith as you doe the reall presence if the imperfection of mans vnderstanding be such in the comprehension of the workes of nature that as f VVe must needs yeeld if such authors speake against vs. So is not Gods word 2. Tim. 3.16 Psa 119.105 Socrates saith Hoc solum scimus quod nihil scimus this one thing wee doe know that wee doe know nothing how great is the imperfection thereof in the comprehension of things supernatural being so farre remote from our senses and vnderstanding the wisedom of man as S. Paul saith is foolishnesse with God and therefore a farre incompetent iudge is it to determine of things appertaining to God from this fountaine sprang first the heresie of Arius who not being able to comprehend how the Sonne of God could be begotten when as there was no time of his begetting chose rather to rend himselfe from the vnitie of g That 's not the popish church Belike the catholicke church can vnderstand things that be aboue vnderstanding without the scriptures helpe the catholicke Church and to wrest the Scriptures to his owne capacitie than to submit his owne vnderstanding in things aboue vnderstanding vnto the censure of the Catholicke Church the sure rocke and pillar of trueth and whosoeuer he be that in matters of his faith consulteth with flesh and blood measuring the same by rule of humane reason must needs be an hereticke if not an atheist if you demaund how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament I answere I h No nor any man els liuing cannot tell because it is ineffable neither can I conceiue it because it is incomprehensible if you doe alleage impossibilitie I answere that i So answered Praxeas the hereticke vide Tertul. nothing is to God impossible if you require arguments of credibilitie you haue as many and as great as for any one article of our christian faith you haue the vniforme consent of the k I pray you where doth S. Iohn say hoc est corpus meum or what other plaine and direct words hath he or any of the greeke churches foure Euangelistes in direct and plaine wordes you haue the vniforme consent practise of the l Gréek churches continued and remaining at this day so that there is nothing wanting but the assistance of Gods holy spirite which you are to séeke and craue be continuall and hearty prayer The Answere OVr Protestant here is worse afraid than hurt the big lookes of his aduersary made him afraid but his withered armes could not hurt him hee telleth vs with full mouth and face enough that he will proue the sacrifice of the masse which implyeth transubstantiation by the consent of all ancient fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church but when all is come to all hee runnes away and leaues this withered conclusion behind him ergo the sacrifice of the Church was either the masse or the Protestants communion I trow such arguments as these may soone bee answered but now that our Protestant calleth forth sense and reason to witnesse against him and to demonstrate infallibly that his assertion is not to be beleeued he comes backe againe and intreats him to shut his eies and suffer himselfe to be hudwinked and then he will take paines to lead him into a popish ditch If we relie vpon the censure of our senses and reason saith he wee are in the hie way to all Atheisme and heresie Iohn 20.27 29. a strange thing that that which was a meane to faith in Christs time should now become a fountaine of heresie our Sauiour saith to Thomas because thou hast seene thou beleeuest and againe put thy finger here and see my hands and put forth thy hand put it into my side and be not faithlesse but beleeue and in another place he saith Luke 24.38 why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my hands and my feete for it is I my selfe handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me to haue Now I beseech you tell me if the consecrated bread had a mouth to speake as it hath an inuisible mouth if Papists may be beleeued and should say to vs why are yee troubled and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts behold my forme and colour handle taste and see for the body of Christ is not round white sweete heauie thicke grosse earthie as you taste feele and see me to be Shall wee answere that this is the fountaine of heresie and Atheisme No by your leaue answer so who will and who dare this shall be my warrant to settle my conscience and without further trouble of minde or doubt of heart to beleeue that it is very bread and not the body of Christ Moreouer the holy Apostle S. Iohn assureth vs of the certentie of his
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow