suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe that BEZA recanted his religion before his death that the reuerend Doctor KING late Bishop of London died a Papist or that the Protestants at Black-â—ryers by knocking certaine pins out of the timber caused that late lamentable fall of the floar wherin about 200 Papists were assembled and neere a 100 slaine They who teach pious frauds and write of holy hypocrisy and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation may securely report whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause The more incredible and palpable the Lie is the more merit in him that maketh it and in them that beleeue it Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies and Philosophy teacheth that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth and verily as hee said in the Poet Si ius violandum est Regni causa violandum if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice he must doeit for a Kingdome so it is like they are resolued if a man must lye certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion and if lie in so good a cause lye to some purpose The first report concerning the issue of this Conference was of a silly woman said to be present and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it protesting she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more But alas this was but a silly lye made by some pâ—isne â—ouice of the petty forme to see how a lye in this kinde would take The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause by giuing out that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference was gayned to the Romish faith yea and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 some say 400 is the summe of the supposed Conuerts whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference and as wee conceiue neere 20. were professed Papists and knowne Recusants and for the rest which were Noble-men Gentle-men and Gentle-women of quality with some few Diuines there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting but on the contrary they haue openly profest that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it and Master BVGGES himselfe whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended who before had doubted of our Church after this Disputation professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity As for those who contrary to the euidence of truth and so many testimonies beyond all exception are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause the Iesuites wee say who maintaine that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation vpon such as stand thus affected wee bestow the blessing of Cardinall CARAFFA who when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him beeing ariued at Paris comming as Legate from the Pope lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen and making according to the manner crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi decipiatur If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued with such shewes and fopperies let them be gulled or deceiued THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE THe occasion and issue of the late Conference had Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White Deane of Carlile and Doctor Featly with Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference touching the Visibility of the Church page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference page 29. An Attestation concerning some particulars set downe in the said Relation entituled The Fisher catched in his owne Net page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly to his worthy friend Sir Humfrey Lynde touching the former Conference held at his house wherein is maintained that 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull and vsefull and therfore to be iustified 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference maintained and iustified 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference were direct not diuersiue H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions which were propounded by the Iesuite by Distinctions Assertions 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible L1 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages O2 A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference R3 wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations and it is prooued and confirmed that 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies S1 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages yet their Names not now extant S3 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages T1 A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference wherein is shewed that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 An Answer to the Preface thereof V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same which are reduced vnto fiue heads viz. 1 Vntruths 2 Contradictions 3 Idle obseruations and exceptions 4 Impertinences or mal ' à proposes 5 Vaine repetitions Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation touching the occasion of the Conference page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer or the defence of the Protestant Relation diuided into Paragraphs Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction breaking
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of scripture-Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
Errors in doctrine and abuses in practice for the most part steale in secretly and by degrees sensim sine sensu and are therefore seldome discerned and openly opposed before they get head and strength This obseruation I owe to Vincentius Lyranensis Lâ—tenter superinducunt errores quos nec cito deprehendere valeas nec facilè damnare they bring in errors secretly which a man cannot soone finde out nor easily condemne And Vincentius seemeth to haue borrowed it of Tertullian Nihil magis curant quâ—m vt occultent quod praedicant sitamen praedicant quod occultant they seeke nothing more then to hide that which they preach if yet they may bee said to preach that they hide And againe Obscondit se Serpens quantum potest totamque prudentiam in laqueorum ambagibus torquet alte habitat in 〈◊〉 detruditur per aâ—fractus seriem suam 〈…〉 procedit nec semel totus 〈◊〉 bestia The Serpent hides himselfe as much as hee can and sheweth his chiefe skill in wreathing himselfe into foulds hee thrusts himselfe into darke and blind holes c. This note Tertullian took from Saint Peter There shall bee false teachers among you who shall priuily bring in damnable heresies And Saint Peter himselfe might gather it from our Sauiours words Whil'st men slept the enemy came and soâ—ed tares And therefore Bellarmine and Caâ—piâ—n and M. Fisher doe but dreame when they conceiue that the enemy hath not sowne the tares of heresies and superstitions in the Church of Rome because as they suppose that we cannot shew the precise time when all these tares were sowne For our Sauiour makes answer to this question Vnde zizania Whence were these 〈◊〉 for vs They were sowne whilst men slept Changes and alterations are of two sorts some are violent and sudden and with a great noise others are made by degrees and come in piece-meale and without any sound at all In the former kinde it is no matter of difficulty out of stories to shew the precise time when such great and sudden alterations befell in Church or CoÌ„mon-wealth but in the latter kinde it is very difficult and for the most part impossible When a great tree beeing torne by a tempest ingentem traxit 〈◊〉 ruinam euery man obserueth it but who can tell when a great and thick timber-tree beginneth first to rotte The Historians precisely set down the yeer and day wherein the Temple of Diana was burned by Herasastratus and Saint Paul's Steeple in London by lightning but who can out of any Story or otherwise designe the day or yeere when Paul's Church beganne to decay yet no man that now seeth it maketh question but that it is very much ruined the beame out of the timber and stone out of the wall cry for speedy reparations By the Iesuites argument an aged decrepid man all gray-headed might forsweare and out-face his Age because no man nor perhaps himselfe obserued when hee beganne to grow old first or had his first gray haire on his head or beard Our Sauiour very fitly compares heresies to tares which wee see when they are growne though wee see them not in their first growth or as they grow No man can perceiue the index in a Watch or finger in a Diall to wagge or stirre yet hee that going abroad when it points to one a clock and returning home findeth it points to six or twelue a clock knoweth infallibly that it hath mooued and that no small space In like maner though wee cannot in all particular points of difference betweene vs and the Church of Rome designe the moment of time when corruptions and innouations stole in yet finding the doctrine and manners of the Church at one point as it were in the Primitiue times and in latter Ages at a farre distant point nay quite opposite wee know that the finger hath mooued that is that great changes and alterations and innouations haue beene Shall wee deny that there is idolatry in the world because wee know not who was the first Idolater nor precisely when men first fell from true Religion Bellarmine and some others fetch it from some of Noah's posterity after the flood but Barradus endeuoreth to prooue that the tares of idolatry were sowne in the world before the flood yet it appeares on no record who was the first Idolater in the world Some of Noah's posterity degenerated from the true worship seruice of God to Gentilism and superstition yet who can demonstrate the time when or the place where they first began to adulterate the true seruice of God with infinite abuses and abominations How did the Scribes and Pharises at the comming of Christ corrupt the doctrine of the Law with false glosses and abrogate it with their owne traditions Yet no man can shew the originall or first deuiser of all their false glosses and vaine traditions To come neerer to our aduersaries The Fathers in the Councell of Trent acknowledge that many corruptions abuses haue crept into the Masse it self eyther by the fault of times or negligence and wickednesse of men Cùm multaiam siue temporum vitio siue hominum incuria et improbitatâ— irrepsisse videantur quae à tanti Sacrificij dignitate abhorreant c. Sith many things through the fault of times or the negligence and wickednesse of men haue seemed to haue crept in to the Masse which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a Sacrifice wee appoint c. Yet when these abuses crept in and by whose fault neither doe they there neither can any Papist punctually demonstrate The Physicians iudge of their patients two manner of waies eyther à decubitu that is from the time of their lying downe and yeelding themselues to their bed or ab actionibus lasis that is from the time that their appetites and disgestion and other faculties sensibly faile in dooing their functions In like manner are we to iudge of the diseases of the Church some wee may à decubitu from her apparant declining in iudgement to error but other which we cannot so iudge certainely of yet wee may most infallibly by the other meanes ab actionibus lasis from her sensible failings in her vitall faculties and functions viz. Preaching of the Word Administration of the Sacraments and exercise of Ecclesiasticall discipline To cloze vp this note Though many learned Protestant Diuines haue wrote to good purpose touching the first leake in Peters ship yet none seemeth to mee to hit the point more fully then our excellently learned Rainolds Primò ait Gentilitios deinde Iudaicos ritus opiniones concupiscentias ingruisse ea quasi seminaâ— exemplorum et placitorum fuisse haec primùm per exigâ—a non internosci inter dum conspici et coerceri pâ—st sensim augescere magis magisque tum confirmari et grassari latiùs donec ad extremum Religionis facies tota quasi cancro exaesae immutata Ecclesia Romana ex sancta
Sacrament without wine vsing water in stead of it If any of our Ancestors either ignorantly or simply hath not obserued and kept that which our Lord hath taught vs c. through our Lords indulgency pardon may bee granted to his simplicity This he proueth to be a grosse error and a foule abuse yet he excludeth not them who are tainted with this spot from hope of saluation And Saint Cyprian himself had reason to censure charitably an errour in others because himself needed at least a pardon of course for his opinion touching re-baptizing for his zeal against Hereticks transported him so farre that he rejected and disannulled Baptisme administred by them whereby he may seem to touch dangerously vpon the rock of the Donatists heresie yet Saint Austen doubteth not to affirm that he made a recompence for this his errour by the aboundance of his charity in his life and plentifull effusion of his bloud for the testimony of Christ at his death As it was said of Augustus Pompeij statuas erigendo suas confirmauit that by erecting Pompey's statues hee made his owne stand the longer so we may truely say that Saint Austen by framing the former Apology for Cyprian made the easier way in the mindes of all indifferently-affected for his owne defence I would that this most judicious Doctor of the Church for whom all the Christian Churches striue as the Greek Cities for Homer nihil quicquam humani pateretur But I haue learned from Vincentius Nuditatem reuerendi patris nèque meis temerare oculis neque alienis patere velle sed auersum tegere quod est erratum sancti viri nec approbâsse nec prodidisse All that I haue already intimated rather than expressed in this kinde is to shew that euery prick is not a wound euery spot not a sâ—ain in an ancient Writer that euery difference in judgement makes not a rent in the Church and consequently that although Waldo or Wicklef or Husse or any other fore-runner of Luther's reformation in our daies might haue some priuate differences between themselues and from vs as the ancient Doctors had yet that these discords hinder not but that they and wee may beare a part in some concent and harmony of belief on earth and sing the same Halleluiah in heauen As for those foule aspersions of Sorcery Manichisme maintenance of impurity and subiecting God to the diuell and the like laid vpon the Waldenses and Albingenses Wicklef and the Hussiâ—es or any of them we shall easily blowe them away euen by the breath of our Aduersaries in the declaration of the next conclusion The second Assertion The Professors of the truth haue had alwaies false scandals laid vpon their faith and life Our blessed Redeemers most holy Doctrine and sanctified life escaped not the slanders of malicious tongues set on fire of hell Saint Stephen was traduced for blasphemie against God and Moses Saint Paul for Heresie I tremble to rehearse what malice hath broached against the Saints and Martyrs in the Primitiue Church as that they worshipped an Asse head et antistituÌ„ suoruÌ„ genitalia that they murthered Infants and sed vpon their flesh and licked their bloud that putting out the lights they committed incest and all manner of filthinesse one with another Let Rubius and Parsons and Sanderâ—â— and Coccius and Cocleus and Bâ—lsack rid the bottom of their rancorous stomack against Walde Wiclef and Hus and Luther and Caluin they cannot voyd worse matter of fiction then such as the Heathen vented against the Primitiue Christians But as God in former times vsed the tongue of Pliny and diuers other Gentiles to licke out those blots which were cast on the Christians by Gentiles so in these later times also hath God made the tongues of Papists themselues to serue as spunges to wipe away Popish aspersions vpon the aboue-named Professors of truth For the 9. Articles obiected in particular to the Waldenses by Antoninus Prateolus Lutzenburgius Parson Doctor Vsher now Lord Bishop of Methe hath so cleared them euen by the testimonies of Papists from those erronious assertions and scandalous aspersions that the Papists themselues seeme to be ashamed of their shameless slanderâ— It shall suffice for the strengthning of my former conclusion to call in three or foure Papists of note for their purgation they are Du Hallyan Rainerius Thuanus and Cocleus Hallyan speakes but lispingly because he durst not speake plaine yet hee saith enough to conuince the enemies of the truth of shamefull calumniation The principall point saith he which brought the Waldenses into vniuersall hatred and which charged them with more euill opinions then they had was the libertie they tooke to blame the dissâ—lutenes of Princes and of the Clergie yea to tax the Popes themselues this was the Helena that wrought all their troubles as Rainerius the Inquisitor ingenuously confesseth This sect hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the articles contained in the Creed solummodò Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant et Clerum onely they speake euill of the Church of Rome and of the clergie Thuanus after hee had set downe truly the opinions of the Waldenses wherein they concurre with the Reformed Churches at this day addeth His praecipuis et certis eorum doctrinae capitibus alia affict a sunt de coniugio resurectione animarum statu post mortem c. To these especiall and certaine heads of their doctrine there are other added concerning wedlock the resurrection the state of soules after death c. Neuer did any mans stomacke more boyle with rancor and malice against any then Cocleus his against Wiclef whom hee condemneth to greater torments in hell then Iudas or Nero yet the truth extorted from Cocleus himselfe so much as in the iudgement of any indifferent man may cleare him and his scholer Hus froÌ„ those erroneous Articles that were laid to Hus his charge When hee was required by the Bishops to abiure the doctrine hee had taught he refused so to do lest he should wound his conscience and the truth of God but withall protesteth and that solemnly and that three seuerall times and that at the instant of his death that hee neuer held any of those Articles which the false witnesses deposed against him but held and taught and wrâ—te alwaies the contrary In a word hee breathed out his last gaspe with a complaint against his false accusers for laying to his charge doctrines hee neuer held taking it vpon his death that hee taught nothing but the truth of the Gospel which he would now seale with his bloud Hee had no sooner thus cleared his innocencie but his enemies set fire on the â—agot and burnt the Saint of God to ashes And shall wee imagine that Wiclef with whom Iohn Hus praied that his soule might bee after death whose picture Ierome of