A FRIENDLY DEBATE BETWEEN A Roman Catholick AND A PROTESTANT Concerning the Doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION WHEREIN The said Doctrine is utterly Confuted and Antichrist is clearly and fully Described and his inevitable Destruction predicted With a Challenge to all the Romish Doctors that Preach and Teach the said Doctrine to Answer it LICENSED September 24. 1688. LONDON 〈…〉 A FRIENDLY DEBATE BETWEEN A Roman Catholick AND A PROTESTANT CONCERNING THE Doctrine of TRANSUBSTANTIATION c. PRotestant Sir Do you believe that there is a Real Change wrought upon the Elements of Bread and Wine after they are Consecrated by the Priest in the Sacrament of the Eucharist into the Substantial Material Living Body and Blood of Christ which makes up his Real Person to wit of Body Soul and Divinity Roman Catholick Yes Sir I do believe that the Elements are Transubstantiated into the very living person of Christ to wit of Body Soul and Divinity that is into the very same Body which he assumed before he died the same Body in which he suffered and died upon the Cross without the Gates of Jerusalem the same Body that laid in the Grave three days and the very same Body in which he ascended up into Glory and is sat down at the right hand of God in Glory Prot. I must confess Sir according to the genuine sense of your Doctrine of Transubstantiation it must be so or else it is a mere sham and mockery For if the Elements be Transubstantiated into the very Body Soul and Divinity of Christ and then be offered up a sacrifice propitiatory and sufficient for the sins of the living and the dead then Christ must be alive or else you do offer a dead sacrifice But I do utterly deny it and therefore Sir I 〈…〉 Rom. Yes Sir I will prove it by Scripture from our Saviour Christ's own words and also from the words of the Apostle St. Paul. Prot. Pray Sir let me hear that Rom. First of all I shall prove it from our Saviour Christ himself by the words of Institution when he Instituted this Ordinance of the Sacrament of the Eucharist Luke 22.19 20. And as they were cating Jesus took bread and blessed it and brake it and gave it to the Disciples and said Take eat this is my Body Likewise the cup after supper saying This cup is the new-testament in my blood Matt. 26.26 27 28. And as they were eating Jesus took bread and blessed it and brake it and gave it to the Disciples and said Take eat this is my body And he took thâ— cup and gave thanks and gave it to them for this â—â— my blood of the new testament which is shed for many for the remission of sins And in John 6.52 53 54 I am the living bread which came down from heaven if any man eat of this bread he shall live for every And the bread that I will give is my flesh which I wiâ—â— give for the life of the world Then Jesus said unto them Verily verily I say unto you except ye eat thâ—â— flesh of the son of man and drink his blood ye have 〈◊〉 life in you Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh mâ— blood hath eternal life and I will raise him up at thâ— last day Thus you see I have clearly 〈◊〉 〈…〉 That it is Christ's Real Body and Blood that we do eat and drink in the Sacrament of the Eucharist And secondly I shall prove this Doctrine from the Apostle St. Paul's words also in the 1 Cor. 11.24.25 where he saith Take Eat this is my Body which is broken for you After the same manner also he took the Cup when he had supped saying This Cup is the New Testament in my Blood. Thus you see I have proved this Doctrine of Transubstantiation by Scripture and I could also prove it by Councils and Decrees and Canons and Traditions of our Fathers and the like And besides all that has been said it is an Article of the faith of our Church which is infallible and cannot err And we are bound to believe as the Church believes and commands us to believe And therefore this Doctrine must be infallibly true Prot. Sir is this all that you have to say to prove this Doctrine of your Infallible Church Rom. Yes Sir and I think it is a sufficient proof of it too Prot. Why then I pray Sir Give me leave to answer you as well as I can from Scripture and from Reason also Rom. Yes Sir with all my Heart Prot. Why first of all Sir in the first place give me leave to tell ye you have not taken the whole verses or sentence in some of these Scriptures which you have quoted you have gone away with part of a Text even so far as will serve your turn which is a very dangerous thing for it is no less than to clip the King of Heavens Coyn which is Spiritual High Treason which is the worst of Treason and is punishable with no less than all the Curses of the Book of the Holy Word of God without true Repentance Rev. 22.18 19. Deut. 4.2 Prov. 30.6 Sir you know Satan when he tempted our Blessed Saviour Christ he quoted part of a Text of Scripture to serve his own turn Matth. 4.5 6. Then the Devil taketh him up into the holy City and setteth him on a pinacle of the Temple and saith unto him If thou be the Son of God cast thy self down for it is written He shall give his Angels charge concerning thee and in their hands they shall bear thee up lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone 'T is written saith Satan quoting Psal 91.11 12. for he shall give his Angels charge over thee to keep thee in all thy ways they shall bear thee up in their hands lest thou dash thy foot against a stone The Devil leaves out that part of the Text to wit He shall keep thee in all thy ways Sir you do own and believe these Scriptures which you have quoted to be understood literally and properly and not Mystically and Spiritually but according to the plain letter of them Rom. Yes Sir I do for the Text is plain and clear Prot. Now Sir I will answer you from the words of our Saviour Christ in the same Chapters and in some of the same verses which you have quoted and also from the words of the Apostle Paul in that same Chapter which you have made use of and also in many other places of the Holy Scriptures whereby you shall see by God's assistance this Doctrine of yours overthrown and utterly confuted therefore let us bring it to the Touchstone of Gods Word To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them Isa 8.20 1. First of all By the words of our Blessed and only Mediator and Redeemer in Luk. 22.19 20. And he took Bread and gave thanks and brake it and gave it unto them saying
at the day of Judgment That light is come â—nto the world and men love darkness rather than â—ight because their deeds are evil they hear of Christ but will not come and believe in him nor reign up the conduct and government of their souls â—nto him and this Ordinance of the Lords-Supper 〈◊〉 to quicken and strengthen the believers graces and 〈◊〉 shew forth the transcendent wisdom and grace of â—od in contriving and bringing to pass this blessed â—ork of mans Redemption by his only begotten â—n Jesus Christ This holy Ordinance may be compared with â—â—ly reverence unto a tender hearted loving Husband that is just taking his leave of his dearly beâ—â—ed Wife and going some long voyage by Sea or â—â—he tedious journey by Land And at his departure when he taketh his leave of his wife he saith 〈…〉 long time from thee therefore I will leave this Diamond Ring or this precious Jewel with thee as a Token of my intire love and affections unto thee for thee to remember me during my absence until I return unto thee again But when he returneth his Wife hath no need of the Ring or Jewel to remember him by because he himself is now personally present with her why even so our Lord Jesus Christ our Head and Husband just the very night in which he was betrayed leaves this Ordinance this precious Jewel with his Spouse the Church as a Love-token for to remember him by during his absence while he is personally sitting at the right hand of God the Father as you may observe from them words of our Saviour Do this in remembrance of me The true Catholick Apostolick Church is Christ's Spouse Cant. 5.1 I am come into my Garden my Sistor my Spouse and Christ is the Church's Husband Isa 54.5 For thy maker is thy Husband the Lord of Hosts is his name and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Isael the God of the whole Earth shall he be called But if this Doctrine of Transubstantiation in your sense be true viz. that the Bread and Wine is Transubstantiated into the very person of Christ namely into Body Soul and Divinity which makes up the compleat person of Christ as much now as he was before and after his Death and Resurrection and as much as he will be at the great day of Judgment for he will be then in Body Soul and Divinity but there will not be one soul that will even dare to stand by and own this strange Doctrine in that day any otherwise than to abhor it and to be ashamed of it And Christ is in Body Soul and Divinity now at the right hand of God in Glory But if this Doctrine of yours be true That Christ is Personally and Corporeally present every time that the Priest saith the Mass Then first in the first place It will consequentially follow that either the Priest maketh a new Christ every time the Mass is said and so we have one Christ personally in Heaven and they have thousands of Christs personally upon Earth Or Secondly They fetch down Christ materially personally from the right hand of God the Father And if so then in the third place Christ has no time at all in Heaven with the Father I call it time in Heaven for distinction sake to intercede and plead as an Advocate and Mediator with God the Father for sinners all his time would be taken up and spent in attending upon the Priests every time they say Mass in all those many remote places round the Globe almost which takes in their Mass-hours perhaps all the four and twenty Hours being upon several Horrizons Fourthly If this Doctrine be true then Christ is come and then this Ordinance ceases to be as I conceive and there needs no such thing to remember him by or to shew 〈…〉 swade him to stay when he is come in your Mass for according to your Doctrine there is a compleat Christ that cometh in the Mass every time it is said for when Christ doth come from the right hand of God to judg the quick and the dead as you your selves do confess and own in your own Creed to my own certain knowledg which I shall have occasion to speak more of by and by for Christ will come then in no other manner as to his person than in Body Soul and Divinity if he went to Heaven so he will come again so as you may see Act. 1.11 Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into Heaven this same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into Heaven Now if Christ be thus come then I humbly conceive this Ordinance should be at an end for when once the substance is come then the shadows must flee away and cease to be for what need the children of the Bride-chamber mourn when the Bridegroom shall come again to them and be with them for ever for what need a man have any thing to put him in mind or to remember a friend that is always present with him and is always before his eyes Why when Christ doth come his people shall see him eye to eye Isa 52.8 and Rev. 1.7 Behold he cometh in the Clouds and every eye shall see him And they also which pierced him that shall be both Jews and Gentiles Zech. 12.10 Again thirdly the same Apostle saith That Christ was to be offered up but once and he gives this as one reason of it viz. for saith he If he had been offered up often then must he have suffered often since the foundation of the world And the Apostle Peter whom some do count Prince of the Apostles saith That Christ suffered once 1 Pet. 3.18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sin the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the spirit Mark ye it was the humane flesh or body of Christ that suffered and died and not his Godhead for that is not capable of suffering I pray Sir observe these following Scriptures and believe them Heb. 9.25 26 28. For Christ is not entered into the holy place made without hands which are the forerunners of the true but into Heaven it self now to appear in the presence of God for us nor yet that he should offer himself often as the high Priests entered into the holy place every year with the blood of others for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world But now in the end of the world hath appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself So Christ was once offered to bear the sin of many and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto Salvation Here you see Christ was ordained and appointed to be offered up but once and that was a sufficient sacrifice for sin in the wisdom and account of God but you 〈◊〉 once offering up himself
and â—eign some not all should depart from the Faith that is they should Apostatize from the very Doctrine of the true Christian Faith they would disown the true Doctrine of Faith they would depart from the very fundamental Doctrine of Justification and Sanctification and Salvation by the Righteousness Merits and Spirit of Christ alone and look to be saved by their own righteousness and Meritorious works in conjunction with Christ's Righteousness and Merits when it is said in Act. 4.12 Neither is there Salvation in any other for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved and in Rom. 10.3 4. For they being ignorant of Gods Righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves unto the Righteousness of God for Christ is the End of the Law for Righteousness to every one that believeth for by the deeds of the Law shall no flesh be justified And they departed from the Faith of one Mediator between God and Man the Man Christ Jesus 1 Tim. 2.5 And they have made to themselves many Mediators And they have departed from the Faith of one intercessor in Heaven and have made to themselves many Intercessors when as it is said in Rom. 8.33 34. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect it is â—â—d that justifieth who is he that condemneth it is 〈…〉 that is risen again who is 〈…〉 â—â—cession for us he is our Advocate with the Father 1 Joh. 2.1 2 3. And lastly they depart from all other fundamental Doctrines of true Gospel-worship and Discipline and in all these departings they depart from God himself who is the chief Good and ought to be the last End and by this they fall into all mischief and Heresie being drawn away and seduced by these seducing spirits who are false Teachers to give up the sole conduct and government of their souls unto them that have their own Consciences seared with an hot Iron who feed them with Doctrines of Devils or Demons they teach or speak lies in hypocrisie And here the Apostle layeth down their forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from Meats to be part of these Lies For saith he Speaking lies in hypocrisie having their conscience seared with a hot Iron forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the Truth Mark they pervert the very End and Design of God in the Creation of these things God has created them to be made use of in his own way and ordinance the one in Chastity and the other in Temperance Not but that a Minister or any others are left to their liberty whether they will marry or not but they ought not to be imposed on by others but in this case they are a law to themselves neither doth this destroy a holy fasting or abstinency when it is done heartily and sincerely according to God's own appointment and prescription in his Holy Word but it wholly destroys all Impositions that are irregular and also it destroys all Pharisaical Hypocritical Meritorious Fasting and Penance But you will say How can this forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from Meats be part of those Lies and Doctrines of Devils which they speak in Hypocrisie First in forbidding to marry they injoyn the penalty of Damnation and pretend that if any persons in Spiritual Orders do marry they do not only forfeit the said Office but do also incur the guilt of damnation and they will yet sooner absolve them of the guilt of Fornication or Adultery as they pretend than of that offence Now this is Diametrically contrary to the Holy Scriptures which is the whole Faith and Truth which they are departed from and therefore it must needs be a lie for the word of Truth saith plainly That it is better to marry than to burn 1 Cor. 7.9 Secondly They do command all to abstain from Meats and make the ignorant people believe that they shall be damned if they eat flesh on certain times and seasons which they have prohibited without a dispensation from the Church which is the 〈…〉 Now the word of Truth saith Whatsoever is sold in the Shambles that eat asking no questions for Conscience sake And further it is said If any of them that believe not bid you to a Feast and ye be disposed to go whatsoever is set before you eat asking no questions for conscience sake Here you see the Man of Sin commandeth one thing and the holy God by his servant Paul commandeth another therefore this must be a lie because God is a God of Truth and cannot lie and the same Apostle saith Let God be true and every man a lier Rom. 3.4 But the Man of Sin is a lier and is departed from the Faith and the Truth is not in him Thus you see how they do impose upon the easie credulous ignorant people and make them believe that if they do disobey the Canons or Commands of their Church they do incur the penalty of damnation because say they our Church is infallible and cannot err And therefore you must believe as the Church believes or as she commands ye to believe which is to assume that Power and Prerogative which peculiarly and properly belongeth unto God viz. to make them a willing people in the day of his power Psal 110.3 Why even so Antichrist by force or fraud makes them an ignorant willing people in the day of his Dragooning power by the permission of God. But here lieth the great difference whereas God when he doth come by his Spirit by the Omnipotent power of Grace to work upon the souls of sinners to make them a willing people he also maketh them a wise and understanding people Psal 119.130 The entrance of thy words giveth light it giveth understanding to the simple God worketh first upon the Understanding and then upon the Will and by that he enlightens the Mind in the knowledg of Christ and then the Will is sanctified and changed and so of an unwilling people they are made willing But Antichrist when he exerts and puts forth his power to proselyte a soul he works first upon the Understanding and then upon the Will also but it is to put out the common light of the Understanding in Spiritual things and wholly depraveth the Will and resigns it up to the will of Antichrist and then leadeth the Mind wholly into the dark that they may not discern their deceit nor see the true way to come to the knowledg of Christ and therefore they take away and rob them of the Key of Knowledg namely the Holy Scriptures which is the Rule of Life and Faith that every man ought to walk by and believe because it is the revealed Will of God. But say they our Church is infallible and cannot err that is she is so good and so holy that there needs no amendment nor reformation in her
which is that wherein the strength of their father's Dominion lieth and doth afford no manner of relief nor support to the Devils Kingdom nor no kind of countenance to his subjects or children But the whole bent and stream of the Scripture is against his Kingdom subjects and children therefore the Holy Scriptures could not be invented or made by any of them but it must be the infallible true word of the everlasting God who cannot lie nor deny himself and it was indicted by his Holy Spirit and written by holy men of God as they were moved and inspired by the Holy Ghost Eighthly and Lastly If it be not in the Power of a Good Man to give the Reward that cometh by Grace of Eternal Life and Salvation which is the full Fruition and Enjoyment of God for ever in Glory which is promised in Scripture unto all them who believe and obey it Nor to execute the threatnings of Hell and Damnation by punishing all those with eternal torment which the Holy Scriptures have denounced against all them that transgress by their disobedience unto it because it would be to promise that which he was no way in the least measure or degree capable to perform or make good and threaten that which he hath not a power to execute Then it could not be a good man that made or invented the Scriptures But it is not in the power of a good man to give the reward that cometh by Grace of Eternal Life and Salvation Tit. 1.2 which is the full fruition and enjoyment of God for ever in Gloty which is promised in Scripture unto all them who believe and obey it nor to execute the threatnings of Hell and Damnation by punishing all those with eternal torment which the Holy Scriptures hath denounced against all them that transgress by their disobedience unto it 1 Pet. 4.17 18. Because it would be to promise that which he knew in his own Conscience that he was no way in the least measure or degree capable to perform or make good and to threaten to inflict that punishment which was not in his power to execute and so he would have been a liar and an impostor which is quite contrary to the Principle of a good man and it is utterly inconsistent with his Goodness Therefore it could not be a good man that made or invented the Sacred Scriptures because this power is peculiar and wholly in the hands of God and therefore it must be the word of God. The Apostle St. Paul saith But I certifie you brethren that the Gospel which was preached by me is not after man for I neither received it of man neither was I taught it but by the revelation of Jesus Christ Thus you see clearly proved That the Holy Scriptures were not made nor invented by either good men or bad men Therefore it must be undoubtedly the Infallible Word of the True and Ever-living God and not a humane Invention Now I shall close up this Discourse in drawing a Parallel between some part of the Holy Scriptures of Christ and the Scriptures of Antichrist which is that another Gospel as the Apostle called it in 2 Cor. 11.4 and Gal. 18.9 And I shall Answer another Objection with Three Arguments and so finish the whole 1. First the Gospel of Christ teacheth Love Peace Meekness Humility and lowliness of mind Col. 3.15 2 Tim. 2.24 25. But the Gospel of Antichrist teacheth men Hatred Variance Pride Malice and Haughtiness of Spirit 2. Secondly The Gospel of Christ teacheth men to do good for evil But the Gospel of Antichrist teacheth men to do evil for good for if they know that a man doth but endeavour to convince them of their Errors and Heresie which is the greatest and best good that any man can do for a Person they will Burn or Hang him or clap him up in the Inquisition for a Heretick if it lieth in their Power which is to do the greatest evil for the greatest good 3. Thirdly The Gospel of Christ teacheth men to do to others as they would be done by themselves Matth. 12. But the Scripture of Antichrist teacheth men to do by others as they would not be done by themselves 4. Fourthly The Gospel of Christ teacheth men to pray for their Enemies that persecute them Matth. 5.44 But the Gospel of Anrichrist teacheth them account them their Enemies that pray for them and 〈◊〉 persecute them 5. Fifthly The Gospel of Christ teacheth 〈◊〉 to love our neighbours as our selves But the Gospel of Antichrist teacheth them 〈◊〉 betray and murder their neighbours for Hereticks if they be not of their Perswasion 6. Sixthly The Gospel of Christ teacheth 〈◊〉 Ministers of Jesus Christ to compel people to conâ—â—â— unto Christ and believe in him for Life and Salvation by peaceable suasive Arguments drawn and deduced from the Holy Scriptures But the Gospel of Antichrist teacheth his Ministers to compel Persons to come unto him a 〈◊〉 embrace his Religion and Worship by the forcible Arguments of Dragoons and Inquisitions 7. Seventhly The Gospel of Christ teacheth 〈◊〉 That God is a spirit and they that worship him 〈◊〉 worship him in spirit and in truth John 〈…〉 But Antichrist's Gospel teacheth That God is an Old Man sitting in Heaven and must be worshipâ—ed carnally and falsely by Images c. 8. Eighthly The Gospel of God teacheth Men Wisdom and Understanding 2 Tim. 3.15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus Psal 119.130 The entrance of thy words giveth light it giveth understanding to the â—imple But the Gospel of Antichrist maketh men of Understanding simple and teacheth that Ignorance â—s the mother of Devotion but I will assure you it â—s not fatherless for it has a Father too for if Ignorance be the Mother of it then the Devil must be the Father of it John 8.44 9. Ninthly the Gospel of Christ teacheth men and women to be better than their own natural Dispositions and corrupt Inclinations which is the great Doctrine of Christianity nameiy Self-denial which is the Excellency of the Christian Religion above all other pretended Religions in the world if performed in a right manner and to a right end it is this that maketh a man more excellent than his neighbour for it teacheth a man to deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly and righteously 〈◊〉 teacheth a man to deny sinful-self and righteous-self too which is a higher Attainment than the denying of sinful-self for many Persons can â—eny sinful-self that cannot deny righteous-self for it is one of the hardest duties that is incumbent upon a Christian to deny righteous-self which is â—o do good works and discharge every Duty as carefully and as consciously as if he should be justified and saved by and for so doing and when he has done all to cast them behind his back as if he had done nothing