Gregorius Dyonisius saith Picus Mirandula discordant circa ordines angelorum Gregorie and Dyonisius disagree about the order of angels If Gregorie dissenteth from him why may not Luther doe so Who so desireth to read more of this Dyonisius may be referred to Erasmus and Valla. That the Protestants raile at the fathers it must be numbred amongst the Doctours vntruths but by Protestants this man meaneth the Puritans forsooth although this odious name of Puritanes agreeth better to Papists August haeres 38. who doe so stand vpon their puritie because they can keepe all Gods commandements Yet know not I any so called that raile at all the fathers But here it is to be noted euen by his owne confession that the Protestant defend the fathers against the Puritanes therefore they raile not at them Thus M. Doctour you hardly know what you write you are so egerly carried against the Protestants somewhat ye would say but yet know not well how to vtter your minde We acknowledge the fathers to haue had excellent wits to haue studied and praied continually yet doe we not deifie them neither doe we account their writings canonicall scripture as Augustine speaketh of Cyprian lib. 2. cont Cres cap. 32. Where you call the Protestants foolish vnstudied vnlearned prophane and arrogant fellowes you bewray your vaine spirit Vascula inania maximè tinniunt the emptiest vessells make the greatest sound Of your learning we shall speake more hereafter in the meane time I would haue you to know that constat plures Papaâ— adeò illiteratos fuisse vt Grammaticam penitus ignorarent Alphon. l. 1. c. 4. it is certenly knowne that sundrie Popes haue bin so vnlearned that they neuer vnderstood their Grammar You say further that Protestants are giuen to lust ambition gluttonie and couetousnes If for Protestants you had named Papists it had bin a true saying For as your owne man Coster confesseth Plarique Catholici feris ac bellumis moribus blasphemiae causam prabent infidelibus many Catholikes or Papists beeing of sauage and beastly manners and behauiour doe cause Infidels to blaspheme But more also of this in another place If the Centuriators and Calvine haue noted some errours in some of the fathers it is no more then Papists haue done The Rhemists renounceth Augustines exposition vpon the 16. of Matthew Bellarmine in his first booke de sancto beat and 6. chap. saith that Iustinus Epiphanius Ireneus and Oecumenius cannot be defended Againe Ambrose Hilarie and Nissen are reiected of him cap. 4. lib. 2. de rel To proceede he holdeth that Adam was not deceiued Lib. 3. de Amiss grat cap. 7. yet communis patrum sententia id videtur habere vt Adam fuerit seductus the fathers common opinion seemeth to be that Adam was seduced Hierome agreeth not with the fathers concerning the buriall of Adam Bell. lib. 3. de amiss grat cap. 12. Theodoret expoundeth some places of scripture as the Pelagians-doe Bellar. lib. 4. de amiss grat cap. 9. The fathers before Pelaguis did not accurately handle the doctrine of predestination Bellar. lib. 2. de grat lib. arb c. 11. Lastly not to be too tedious cap. 14. eiusdem lib. he saith that patres cum ad populum verba facerent ea dicebant quae vtiliora videbantur ad excitandos homines ad bona opera The fathers when they did speake to the people vttered those things which were most profitable to stirre vp the people to good workes For thy further satisfaction Christian Reader I desire thee but to read Bellarmines exposition of the Lords praier and tell me how the fathers doe agree euen in expounding that one praier Their diuersitie also in expounding this article He sitteth on the right hand of God is worthie to be considered Bellar. lib. 3. de Incar cap. 15. M. Doctour Humfrie his spech of that famous and reuerend Bishop Iewell beeing iniurious to himselfe is vttered in respect of his great paines and not to detract from the truth of his challenge if you can confute his booke set vpon it if you cannot neuer hereafter bragge of the fathers For indeede it is no small meanes to confirme the Protestants in their cause that his bookes haue not beene answered in so long a time you crie the fathers the fathers are on your sides and yet haue not satisfied M. Iewel his challenge in many yeares I reduce your argument into a syllogisme They which condemne the fathers of errors hold a false religion But the Protestants condemne the fathers of errors Ergo. To this argument let Augustine answer Si divinarum scripturarum earum scilicet quae in Ecclesiae canonicae nominantur perspicua aliquid firmatur authoritate sine vlla dubitatione credendum est â—pist 112. alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur tibi credere vel non credere liceat if any thing be confirmed by euident authoritie of those Scriptures which are called Canonicall in the Church we must beleeue it without any doubting but other witnesses or testimonies by which some thing to be beleeued is perswaded thou maist beleeue or not beleeue I might abound with his testimonies I will adioyne one other Neque quorumlibet disputationes quamvis catholicorum laudatorum hominum velut scripturas habere debemus epist 1â—1 vt nobis non liceat salva honorificentia quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in corum scriptis improbare aut respondere We ought not to account any mens disputations although catholike and laudable men as the scriptures as if it were not lawfull for vs the honour which is due vnto them reserued to disalow and reiect something in their writings Picus Mirandula in his Apologie prooueth that in dictis sanctorum extra canonem bibliae non est infallibilis veritas in the sayings of Saints without the canon of the bible there is not infallible truth The Papists themselues refuse the fathers Pucichius saith Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re definitio Iâ—â—l 548. I like not S. Augustines determination of that point namely originall sinne Epiphanius is reiected for breaking images by D. Harding Cyprian is condemned by Duraeus because he teacheth that onely Christ is to be heard But that we may see all the fathers to be on your side M. Doctour produce I pray if you can their testimonies to prooue that the Pope cannot erre that he may depose Princes that he must summon Councells and that he is aboue the same or that the virgin Marie was not conceiued in original sinne I haue desired to see these points prooued by all the fathers if you can doe it you shall doe more then your owne men haue done By these new opinions we may gather that Poperie did beginne by degrees and hath encreased to this height These doctrines although they concerne the head of your church are so weakely prooued by the fathers that a man would imagine you doe not hold these
booke of his Confessions shall finde that he did beleeue the Scriptures for themselues In his 14. chap. of the booke cited by the Doctor he writeth thus Quid putas faciendum nisi vt eos relinquamus qui nos invitant certa cognoscere postea imperant vt incerta credamus eos sequamur qui nos invitant prius credere quod nondum valemus intueri vt ipsa side valentiore facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur non iam hominibus sed ipso Deo intrinsecus mentem nostram firmante atque illuminante what haue we to doe but to forsake them that inuite vs to know certaine things and afterwards command vs to beleeue vncertaine things and to follow thē which inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to behold that beeing made stronger through faith we may attaine to vnderstand that we beleeue now not men but God himselfe confirming and lightning our minde inwardly The spirit of God therefore must cause vs to beleeue otherwise we shall wauer and stagger To conclude this point many borne in heresie and schisme haue bin mooued by heretikes to beleeue the Scriptures is heresie therfore equal to the scriptures nothing lesse The three Creedes we receiue because the doctrine is contained in the scriptures but you doe not receiue Athanasius his Creede for he maketh but two places vitam aeternam ignem aeternum Omnes homines resurgent cum corporibus suis reddituri sunt de factis preprijs rationem qui benè egerunt ibunt in vitam aeternam qui verò malè in ignem aeternum All men shall rise with their owne bodies and shall giue an account of their deedes and they which haue done well shall goe into life euerlasting they which haue done euill into euerlasting fire You teach that Infants vnbaptized shall be in a brimme of hell and not in the fire of hell Thus if you had bin wise M. Doctor you would haue bin silent concerning these Creeds If I should shew your contrarieties to the Apostles creed I should be ouerlong That the holy Ghost doth proceede from the Father and the Sonne Lib. 2. de Christ cap. 22. Bellarmine prooueth plentifully out of the Scriptures What an ignorant Doctor is this that cannot see this mysterie prooued in holy Scripture Touching the tearmes as person Trinitie consubstantiall Sacraments what if they be not in Scriptures the heauenly doctrine signified by the words is contained in scriptures If these wordes were necessarie to saluation then men were damned before they were inuented which I thinke the Doctor will not grant for many beleeued the things although the names were not extant Augustine calleth the bookes of Tobie and other Canonical because they were read to edification for I hope you will not oppose his authoritie to so many Fathers as I haue before produced In the place by you cited he will haue those books which are receiued of all Churches preferred before those which some Churches receiue not hence it is manifest that he maketh not all of equall authoritie Lib. 2 con gaud cap. 23. Elswhere he will haue the bookes of Machabees read so it be non inutiliter sobriè not vnprofitably and soberly Why doth he giue this caution to these bookes if they were of like authoritie And in his booke de praed Sanct. c. 14. he confesseth when he did produce a testimonie out of the booke of Wisdome that the brethren did reiect it there he contendeth not much for it If it had bin Canonicall he should not haue so remissely pleaded for it Thus it appeareth why he calleth these books canonical Where you say that no heretike can charge the Church with adding or diminishing one iot from the Scriptures we must admire Gods prouidence and his loue towards his church he preserueth the Scriptures though men would take thē out of the world But if you meane that the church of Rome hath not altered the holy Scriptures you must know that the Papists hold the Hebrew and the Greeke text to be corrupt and haue established a Latin translation differing farre from the Hebrew and Greeke and is not this to alter the scriptures If I should shew the corruptions of that trāslation I should be very tedious I will name one in the 1. of the Hebr. it is said Christ hath purged our sinnes by himselfe these words by himselfe are cleane stricken out of their Rhemists translation what an intollerable corruption is this But I will conclude the matter in a syllogisme They which establish a corrupt translation alter the scriptures or at least a iot of the same But the Papist establish a corrupt translation Ergo. And indeede I cannot sufficiently wonder at them who establish their Latine translation eo nomine because it is Hieroms and yet will not allow his translations of the Psalmes what dealing with the Scriptures is this he hath corrected that translation of the Psalmes which they vse and yet they haue defied it You further demand why we should trust the Church of Rome rather in this then in other things I answer first that as I haue prooued we trust not the Church of Rome but the scriptures themselues secondly it is a ridiculous consequent We beleeue the church of Rome in this point ergo we must doe so in all other To make your follie manifest vnto you selfe M. D. you beleeue the church of England in some points will you doe so in all I would it were so That we haue had nothing to doe with the Bible for a thousand yeares and that we haue robbed the Church of many bookes are detestable vntruths But I pray you Syr were not the scriptures preserued in the Greeke church as well as in the Romish church did not the Iewes keepe the scriptures and yet to vse your phrase our Sauiour wrested thē out of their hands not as iust but as vniust possessours of them The Pharisies might haue vsed the same speech to our Sauiour Christ that the Doctor doth to vs. He hath three other questions in this chapter The first is how we relying onely vpon scripture can shew certainly which bookes be scripture and which not This question I haue at large answered in this chapter and therefore I will not repeat my answer Secondly he would know of the vnlearned Protestant how he knoweth the translations to be true I answer that it is not necessarie to know euery thing to be truly translated The spirit of God speaking in the scriptures certifieth the conscience of the vnlearned that the scriptures in the English tongue are the scriptures The third question it why we beleeue our owne iudgements rather the Luthers or Calvins I answer we beleeue their iudgements that bring best proofes out of Scriptures But M. Doctor because you haue posed vs with so many questions now I will pose you with one likewise Why doe you receiue your latin translation rather vpon this Popes authoritie
he chargeth vs with the same crime because we teach euery sinne to deserue eternall damnation which doctrine his owne men haue taught as I haue prooued These doctrines might haue serued to haue returned this vntruth vpon his head but let vs further see into their doctrine It is not lawfull for the faithfull to marrie with infidells for Paul saith 1. Cor. 6. be not yoked with infidells yet the Pope may dispence in this point Bellar. lib. 1. de Mat. cap. 23. who gaue the Pope leaue thus to play with Gods word Secondly God forbiddeth diuerse degrees of kindred yet the Pope despenseth with them if Gods word bee holy the Popes doctrine is prophane and sheweth him to be Antichrist sitting in the Temple as God Thirdly subdeacons may not marry yet the Pope dispensed with them Greg. lib. 1. Epist Cap. 42. Fourthly God commandeth the children to honour Parents but the papists teach that they may enter into the state of Monkes and Nunnes without the parents consent Bellar. lib. 2. de me 36 cap. Fiftly the Pope should honour the magistrate as beeing his father but the Emperour kisseth is toe Sixtly the Papistes allowe stewes and one calleth them a nenessarie euill God saith Deut. 23.27 There shall be not whore of the daughters of Israel Seauenthly the Papists teach that the Seriptures are not to be read of all men a doctrine tending to ignorance and prophane life Eightly the Papists say that the passions of Saints are ioyned to Christs passion to make vp the treasure of the Church a most blasphemous doctrine against Christs sufferings which are of infinit valour Bell. lib. de Indulg Ninthly the Papists teach that Saints may be called our redeemers after a certaine respect though not simply Bellarm. eodem lib. if there were nothing but this one thing in Poperie a man should euer detest the same Tenthly the Papists teach that it is better to commit fornication then to marrie after a vow as I prooued which is most filthie and odious doctrine 11. The Papists teach that in this life and after death the Pope may giue pardons which is a most dissolute doctrine as is the doctrine of purgatorie Giue good store of gold and siluer and thou shalt haue pardon alas what will not a man giue for the redemption of his soule 12. The Papists teach that some sinnes deserue not death of their own nature which maketh men to commit these smal sinnes whereas the greatnes of sinne terrifieth men from it Thus M. Doctor behold your holy doctrine and now I returne your speach if the Papists doctrine open the right way to heauen then is the way to heauen most pleasant and delightfull to flesh and blood and consequently most easie to be walked The 14. reason Negatiue Doctrine Although this reason with the rest following hath no substance but many vaine words yet I will examine it with the others that followe Pope Boniface robbed the Church and â—â—ed to Ierusalem Fas. Tmp. pag. 70. Albertus robbed the Church by Papall authority â—â—n 90â— Whether Tarltons father spoiled the Church as the Doctor reporteth I am ignorant but if you thus dispute M. Doctor Tarletons father solde the lead off the parish Church Ergo the religion in England is a false religion Tarleton himselfe I am sure had more wit then you you are beholding to his father for this fact for otherwise as it seemeth you had wanted matter to fill vp your chapter as for the destroying of Abbeis Monasteries Nunries Chauntries Altars you might admire the iust iudgment of God vpon such places which beeing abused to Idolatrie and to filthie lust whordome and Sodomie are changed to other vses your owne prelates also in king Henrie his daies committed Abbey lands to the Princes disposition And if you thinke it carnall libertie to possesse any such Church goods you may doe well to perswade a number of your fauorites to renounce the possession of their Abbey lands and to restore them to the Church If you refuse so to doe I will say no more you are libertines your selues by your own verdict Who first annexed parsonages to abbeyes but Papists and this thing hath not a little maimed Gods Church Who first exacted first fruits but the couetous Pope read M. Doctor Fasciculum rerum expetendarum what orations are there against them If your Abbeyes be spoiled blame your selues for Iulian the Cardinall writing to Eugenius saith iusto Dei Iudicio fiet quòd quia nolumus dimittere Concilium fieri perdemus temporalitatem nostram vtinaus non corpora animas By the iust iudgement of God it shall come to passe because we will not suffer a Councell that we shall leese our temporalities and I would to god we might not leese our bodies and soules Touching first fruits saith the Author of the oration against them that exorbitanter factum fuerat contra ius iustitiam in oppressionem praelaturarum ecclesiarumque manasteriorum beneficiorum etiam personarum quibus contigerat It was exorbitantly done against right and equitie to the oppression of Praelacies Churches Monasteries Benefices and also the persons to whome it happened If some Lutherane as you call them had thus written you might haue discredited it but now you haue no cause so to doe No maruaile then if others followed the Popes example If these testimonies will not suffice call to minde the popes confession namely Adrians that Omne malum à Curia Romana processit All wickednesse proceeded from the Romane Court. Thus you haue gained little by this your preface to negatiue doctrine I might answer this reason onely with the like namely that the Papists standeth vpon meere negatiues as these I denie Christ to be the onely king Priest and Prophet of his Church I denie that onely God is to be called vpon I denie the Scriptures to containe sufficient doctrine vnto saluation I denie we are saued onely by Christ thus I might proceede and shew that your religion standeth vpon destructiues But I will giue you arguments for the opinions which we hold And to beginne with Baptisme with which you likewise beginne you hold it to be simply necessarie vnto saluation we denie it affirming that Gods grace is not tied to the Sacraments but that he may dispense it as it pleaseth him The theefe vpon the crosse was saued without baptisme ergo it is not simply necessarie Valentinian died without baptisme as Ambrose reporteth and yet he doubted not of his saluation And if it be necessarie simply vnto saluation it is by this place in the 3. of Iohn No man can enter into the kingdome of heauen except he be borne of water and of the spirit but this place doth not prooue a simple necessitie for Bellarmine teacheth that baptisme was not necessarie simply before the passion of Christ therefore this place prooueth it not We say therefore with Bernard Non carere baptisme seà contemnere capitale est epist 77. not the
presence because the wordes were so plaine and why hath the text bin so tossed that out of it alone there hath bin wronge foure score different opinions I doubt you can hardly shewe so many opinions M. Doctor but graunt it yet a plaine text may not bee vnderstood of euery one and if the text be so plaine as you would haue it howe commeth it to passe that there are so many different opinions also among your selues for you know not howe to expound the word this as I haue prooued in an other worke Scotus confesseth that before the Lateran councell transubstantiation was no matter of faith ergo the wordes this is my body prooue it not Lactantius crieth out after this manner O quam difficilis est ignorantibus veritas quam facilis scientibus O how hard is truth to the ignorante but how easie to the skilfull truth then may be easie in it selfe though difficult to some men Vpon this vaine question you haue made a foolish inference that we haue noe witnesses at all of our newe inuented doctrine but euery one his priuat fancy or conceit whereas the catholike Roman religion hath all things in the world witnesses of it This is a monstrous fable are you able to prooue that all which are in heauen were the children of your church and all that are in hell were enemies vnto it to examine particulars Ignatius you say was of your religion because in Ecclesiasticall affaires he would not haue the king equall to the Bishop and because he wrotte Ecclesiasticall traditions To the first I answer that the true Ignatius would not correct Salomons speech Prou. 24. My sonne saith Salomon honour God and the king but I say honour God and the Bishop as high Priest the true Ignatius was a man of greater religion then that he would haue corrected the scripture but any thing is good inough to patch vp poperie To the second place I answer that it beeing duely considered ouerthroweth the Papists opinion For Ignatius thought it necessarie that the Traditions of the Apostles that is their doctrine should be written for feare of corruption what then is become of vnwritten traditions For that this is the true meaning of Eusebius Grynaeus sheweth Eus l. 5. c. 23. Next vnto Ignatius is Irenaeus placed who is so farre from agnizing the Papall authoritie that he did Acriter Victorem reprehendere sharpely reprooue Victor the Romane Bishop because he excommunicated the Churches of Asia for keeping the feast of Easter in a diuers manner from Rome Would Irenaeus haue done this if the Popes authoritie had beene vniuersall As foâ— Victor if this be your argument he excommunicated the Churches of Asia ergo he was a papist you make a ridiculous reason The next argument of Policarpus his going to Rome is of the same moment for who knoweth not that many mens aduise is vsed who yet haue no authoritie ouer others That Saint Cyprian Syxtus Laurence with infinite others doe witnesse the Romane religion I denie Saint Cyprian is so farre from witnessing all points of poperie that as I haue prooued he is reiected of Papists From men the Doctor commeth to women affirming thousands to haue defended their virginitie against deuils and men What then were they Papists therefore To come to speciallities Helen you say founde out the Crosse Although that historie may be doubted of yet Helen was no Papist for shee did not worshippe the crosse because that was an heathenish errour if shee had beene a Papist shee would haue adored the crosse But the Mother of Augustine Saint Monica was a papist who after death requested that shee might haue Masse said for her here if you meane popish Masse M. Doctor you abuse your selfe most shamefully for shee desired onely a memorie of her at the Communion So had the Prophets and Apostles which were not in your fained Purgatorie By these fewe examples you haue prooued Protestancie then poperie as for the rest which you name Saint Paul the Eremit and others when you prooue them Papists we will beleeue it To your question demanding whether there were any Saints in heaueÌ„ before this our age which were not papists I answer that there were therfore you speake impiously to say that heauen was emptie vntil Luther shooke off his hood or if there were any they were Papists who reuealed these things vnto you M. Doctor Take heede of the pride of Lucifer who would ascend into heauen to know secrets they belong not vnto you The Apostles and Martyrs with thousands I doubt not were in heauen which I am sure were no Papists witnesâ—e their writings From heauen the Doctor commeth to hell I feare me without repentance a fit place for him This iolly fellowe knoweth not onely matters in heauen but also what is done in hell as it seemeth The heathen persecutors are in hell for persecuting the Catholike Church I doubt not but this Catholike Church is not the same with the Romish Church at this day there is ample difference betwixt these And that Constantine gaue great peace to the Church Theod. lib. 1. c. 7. it is true also but he was no Papist for he saith that the holy Scriptures teach vs plainely all things which concerne diuine matters Lastly that all Bishops vnder the cope of heauen were members of this Romish Church is a notorious vntrueth The Doctor to fill vp his reason numbreth many but prooueth not that which he saith The rest of the chapter is but a vaine flourish of words in which I take no delight To drawe his reason into a syllogisme is needlesse because in deede it hath neither head nor foote Amongest many vanities in the ende of the chapter the Doctor saith that he is a Papist because the Romish religion is the most beneficiall of all the rest Christian Reader I feare me that this indeed is the true cause why many are papists namely their commodities But this is sufficient to driue men from poperie that in regard of preferment by this Doctors confession he is a Papist M. Doctor I haue taken away your euidence for poperie for baptisme bindeth no man to falshood Wherefore I beseech you by your saluation choose rather with Moses to suffer affliction then to be the Popes white sonne which as it seemeth by your owne confession you doe because the Romish Religion is most gainefull Out vpon gaine against conscience the Lord open your eies to see the trueth FINIS An admonition to the Reader I desire thee Christian Reader if there be any faults of the Printer to impute them to him not to the author of this booke for he could not be present at the Presse