mighty reason a minore ad majus which words indeed I vnderstand not is this If say you our Lord Iesus his disciples and people did not separate from thire Sinagogues and assemblies that vvere in faith and maners more defectiue then ours are much lesse ought they to separate from our assembles vvherein all the grounds of Christian religion are soundly held and professed you might haue added and but fevv practise neither of preists nor people in vvhom couetousnes vvrath enuie and contention doe daily abound many thousands neither knowing nor regarding to knovv vvhat true faith meaneth and for their manners vvhich you vvould seeme so much to commend let the manners even of that Parish assembly vvherein your selfe did of late exercise your spirituall authority in vain as also the mānerly conditions and conversation of almost all in generall testifie hovv true this your bold affirmation of their manners is and vvithall let the Readers minde that although you boast of all the grounds of christian religion yet it is but held and professed not practised among you so that it may seeme you beleeue also that to hould and professe vvithout obedience is sufficient for the salvation of the professors but to the intent that this may be better discerned I doe intreat and desire all that are christianly minded to reade and consider of these fevv places of scripture Iam. 1.21.22.25.26 Tit. 1.16.2 Thes 1.7.8.9 Eze. 22.26 I vvill only poynt the places let the godly reade and iudge 4 Demand Novv to your fourth demand vvhich is Whether those great multituds of people spoken of Math. 14.13.14.15 c. Ioh. 6.5.10.11 can with any reason be denyed to be members of the visible church though yet wanting the pretended constitution of the Separatists and albeit many of them you say were drawne not by doctrine but by miracles report and with their desire to be fed c. 4 Answ To this your demand I ansvver directly yea they may vvith good reason grounded on the word of God speaking as you doe of the multitude be denyed to be members of any visible Church and this doth plainely apeare in the same 2 chapters namely Mat. 14. Ioh. 6. which may also be compared with other scriptures to proue the same There were none of them members of the visible Church of Christ but those that did visibly appeare to be Christs Disciples but the multitude that followed him for their bellies sake were not his Disciples as the very words of the text doe proue where a diffecence is put betweene the one and the other First looke Mat. 14.19 where it is said Hee caused the multitude to sit downe and when he had blessed broke he gaue it to the disciples the disciples to the multitude And whē they had all eaten were sufficed he caused his disciples to enter into a ship while he sent the multitude away Mat. 14.22.23 Mar. 4.4 If you say he taught them altogether it is true yet was it in parables and afterward he expounded all things to his disciples aparte Mar. 4.10.11.34.35.36 Mat. 13.10.11.13.14.15.36 And thus it doth plainly appear that the multitude were not his disciples and consequently not members of any visible Church of Christ for then he would not haue sent them away empty in their soules and full in their bodyes but he would haue expounded all things to them altogether for their edification and further comfort But the text doth plainly shevv the disciples to be vvithin and the multitude to be without Mar. 4.10.11.12 And whereas you further demand Whether those 3. thousand in the second of the acts that were converted at Peters Sermō were not true mēbers of a true visible Church before they had officers chosen among them c. I Ansvver yea they were this you say cannot bee refuted and it is true but what haue you gained by this what doth this helpe the multitude spoken of before If I should charge you here with deceitfull dealing by shuffling this place of the Acts with the other tvvo places of scripture therby to make your demand seem something and of some weight blinding therewith the eies of your readers I doubt you could hardly cleere your selfe with a good conscience but howsoever you would seeme to shuffle them together to serue your turne yet they are plainly distinguished thus as followeth This place of the Acts speaketh of three thousand godly penitent sinners pricked in their hearts for their sins and converted at that sermon the multitude spoken of in the other two scriptures were not such by your owne grant Againe these in the second of the Acts received the apostles doctrine gladly and forsaking that froward generation with whom they lived they ioyned them selues vnto the Church as appearath in the 37.40 and 41. verses Now who can deny these 3. thousand though still the multitude be denied to be members of the true visible Church when the text saith they were added to the Church although it should be granted that as yet they had no other officers chosen but the Apostles But then say you And why not our Church-assemblies in England much more grounded in the faith a true visible Church c. I ansvver no it vvill not follovv because howsoever some fevv of yovv may be more grounded in knovvledge of the truth then they vvere and thereby your sins and transgressions much more greater against God by knovving more and obaying lesse your parrish assemblies vvere not at the first gathred from others by the preaching of the vvord their hearts being touched vvith godly sorrovv for their sins neither do they yet appeare to be pricked in their hearts for their sins as those three thousand vvere Your parish assemblies do not gladly receiue the Apostles doctrine and continue therein vvith gladnes of heart to be directed and ordered thereby as they did but every man among you vvill doe vvhat his owne heart listeth euen according to the frowardnes and anger of his euill heart so that vvere it not for the lavves of the nation and the power of the magistrates restrayning them more then the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles the manifold mischiefs that would be done by one against another among you through the enuie and malice of your euill and wicked hearts is too manifest to be denyed and too shamefull to be defended I do hartely desire you Sir to examine your own heart well in this point minde well the exhortations that the Apostle giveth in Heb. 3.12 2. Cor. 13.5.6.7.8.9.11 1. Cor. 11.28.29.30.31 you see and know that your Parish-assemblies are so far from continuing in the Apostles doctrine that they neither konw therfore not receiue nor yet regard to know what the wholsome doctrine of the Apostles meaneth I speake not this of all in particular the Lord knoweth my heart is far from so thinking I know many that haue tender consciences and loving affections and do well regard the best rhings but I speake generally of the
former answer affirmed thē to be true constituted Churches that they haue a true lawful ministry set over thē whereby you see we do not alltogether distaste them as much as we doe yours And now to this your Demand which is why we do not adioyne our selves vnto them c. I think this may serue for answer we can not vnderstand their language and I think you cannot giue vs any good reason why we should adioyn our selves to worship God though in a true Church when we can not vnderstand what they say for how should we profit or be edified by their doctrine how should we say Amen to their giving of thanks seeing we know not what they say 1. Cor. 14.16.17 You yet further Demand Why we do not in iudgement assent vnto any or all those reformed Churches that with a ioynt consent as may appeare you say by the harmony of confessions acknwledge the Church of England to be a true Church and giue it the right hand of fellowship how dare they say you refuse c. To this I answer I do not know that the word of God bindeth vs to assent vnto the iudgment of true Churches any further then we vnderstand their iudgment to assent with and agree vnto the word of God True Churches may err in their iudgment of another Church especially if they be not rightly informed of their estate as it appeareth the reformed Churches are not rightly informed of yours for how then can they approue of the constitution ministry spirituall governours spirituall governmēt of your Church to be warrantable by the word of God but they must in so doing condemne themselues for in all these points they are as far contrary to you as white and black true and false are the one to the other and I suppose none will say that two such cōtraries can be both true But mind with all the Apostle saith to perticular Churches and persons iudge ye what I say 1. Cor. 10.15 beleeue not every spirit but try the spirits c. 1 Ioh. 4.1 And againe if any man preach otherwise vnto you then we haue preached let him be accursed Gala. 1.8.9 Now you seeme to teach vs another Gospell for you would not haue vs iudge and try our selues and others by the word of God but send to other Churches in Germany in France and Geneva heare what they say and what they iudg for truth or falshood if they approue who dare disalow if they giue the right hand of fellowship how dare we refuse c. Thus you daube with vntempered morter haueing nothing but such ould popish valour to countenance your Counter-Demands doth ill beseeme a man of your place and learning Heare what the word of God saith To the Law and to the Testimony if they speake not according to this word it is because there is no light in them Isay 8.20 Your leaving of this Law and this Testimony makes vs leaue you you may as well bid vs put out our owne eyes that other men may lead vs and as soone will we follow you in that as in this your popish counsell We haue learned to liue by our owne faith and to know that every man must bear his owne burden and answerr for him selfe vnto God Hab. 2.4 Gala. 6.5 And to think that any may excuse them selues or be the boulder because they haue the approbation of others when they can not approue themselues by the word of God will proue but an evill and false delusion of Sathan therefore seeing that all men even whole Churches may erre in their iudgments let every man take heed how he iudgeth and how he dependeth on other men and makes flesh his arme and will not heare the word of the Lord that reproveth his iniquities As for the reformed Churches we beleeue that they reioyce for the many truthes you witnes against Popery and we also do the like but if you rely vppon their aprobbation and will not examine your waies and try your selves by the word of God you may perish in your sins and other churches shal not be able to excuse or saue you And thus I think your sixt Demand is sufficiently answered Let him that readeth consider 7 Demand Your 7 and 8 Demands are so much alike that one may iudge them to be twins they resemble either other and so vnlike the rest therfore this answer shall serue for them both vntill further occasion be offered In your seventh Demand you thus begin How can the Church or Church assemblies bee false c. 7 Answer I answer your Church and Church-assemblies of England may be false for ought that you haue yet said to the contrary but if we might intreat you to set foorth and shew vs the right forme and fashion of the building of your Church we should the better discerne it and giue you a directer answer to your Demand then now we can do but in the meane time we will a little consider and examine what you say In these words of yours how can the Church or Church-assemblies c. you grant the whole nation to be a Church then me things you seeme to devide that Church into many Churches calling them Church Assemblies meaning thereby as I coniecture your Parish-assemblies 8 Demand And so it appeareth by your 8 Demand where you write thus How can the formall state as they call it of the provinciall diocesan cathedrall and Parishonall Churches of England and the regiment thereof be vnlawfull c Here you haue foysted in a word or two which I found not in the former which word because I vnderstand it not as you peradventure meane therefore I will not meddle with it neither will I meddle with popish names and titles of your Churches though you muster them vp so valorously as if you ment to terrifie the readers with the very names of them only this I finde your demand in both to be how the Church and Parish-assemblies of England can be false the rest dropt or rather scattered abroad throughout your Demands is but your vnsavery salt which you haue cast out vpon the dunghill of your counter work all being as you think so couched together as that it cannot be easily raked abroad but I will try if by the help of God and the truth of his word I can shew what vnsavery stuffe it is 8 Answ To these your 7. and 8. Demands I answer that to hould and maintaine a nationall Church that is to hould that any nation can be a church now in the time of the Gospell we deeme to be erroneous and false and do affirme that no warrant or defence for it can be found in the word of God It is an humane invention and differeth from the testament of Christ which sheweth many Churches to be in a nation or Country as in Iudea Asia Galatia c. Gala. 1.2.22 Rev. 1.4 But not any nation to be a Church Now that yours is a Nationall Church
conditions of the most with whom the better sort stand all in the communion and in one order or disorder rather being mingled together all in one brotherhood and that not by personall fayling but by the very constitution and lawes of your Church civill and ecclesiasticall cleane contrary to the revealed will of God in his Word Even you your self Sir that are a leader and professe your selfe to be a guide to the blinde you breake the law of God and defile his holy things you put no difference betweene the holy and prophane neither discerne between the vnclean and the cleane so the Lord is prophaned among you Eze. 22.26 Consider I pray you and compare together these few places of Scripture Mat. 18.1516.17 Rom. 16.17 1. Cor. 5.11.12.13 2 Thes 36.7 c. and then compare this order heere appointed by Christ and his apostles vnto the order of your Church and Parish-assemblies you shall see even by these 5. places of scripture how far you are from that holy order which Christ in his last will and testament hath given and appointed vnto his visible Church to walke in and to practise You compell all that are of your Parish howsoever vnworthie or vnable to pay their offrings and to receiue the communion especially at your holy time of Easter there is the table prepared bread and wine set come that will and welcom Esay 65.11.12 yea if they be dwelling in your Parish and will not pay their offrings and come to the communion daily they are by you presented into your spirituall Courts thither they are summoned if they appeare not obedienly paying their fees clearing the bookes c. they shall be by that Court excommunicated out of your Parish-assemblies and then before they may be admitted againe either to the fore named banquet or to your devine service as you call it their purses must pay deere enough for a blessing or absolution which they must receiue humbly kneeling on their knees before Mas Commissary or Mas Chancellors worship and if they die excōmunicate before they haue received this bounsing blessing they may not be brought into your holy ground to be buried there in christian buriall as you call it vnlesse their friends will first purchase absolution for them If the mould of this came not from Rome then I pray you Sir shew vs where you learned it for in the whole Bible we cannot finde any such spirituall order given or appointed by God vnto his Church 5 Demand Your 5. demand is Whether that in Constantines the first Christian Emperour tyme and ever since vnto M. Iohn Calvins dayes for the space of 13 hundered yeeres there was no Christian Churches in Asia Africke and Europe because they had the same outward constitution formall state Bishops Archbishops Metropolytans and Church government for substance substance of doctrine that our English Church hath and retaineth c. To tell you the truth I know not well how to answere this your demand yet not because it is so divinely grounded on the word of God but only because I want scoole learning and knowledge of auncient Authors writings as being not able to read and vnderstand them so that now you haue me at a non plus as wise men and fooles vse to say Yet this is one thing much to be lamented that a man of your place and learning should leaue the Scripture the true worde of the living God and thus inquire of the dead but according to the ould proverbe like will to like 5 Answer Thus much I say for answer to this your far-fetched demand I do beleeue and am fully perswaded by the word of God that in whatsoever Emperours or Kings time since the time of Christ in what Nation or Country soever whether in Asia Africk Europe or wheresoever any Church or Churches hath been is or shall be gathered or constituted in any other manner or by and with any other matter vnder or vnto any other worship ministry spirituall Governours or spirituall government then the same for substance in manner and matter which Christ and his Apostles haue appointed in the new testament they are not the true visible Churches of Christ I do not meane hereby an absolute true and perfect gathering or constituting but that all things both for the gathering and continuing of the true visible Church of Christ must be so far as can be discerned by men agreable to the word of God as God shall make men able to discerne and vnderstand the Scriptures And this is all that I can say for answer to this your demand only I will not loose the good advantage that I haue gained by the same which is this I see that you are not able to approue your Church by the word of God and therefore you are driven to make inquiry and to look about you to see if you can espie and find out any other Churches though never so far of whose constitution or gathering ministry and worship ecclesiasticall Governors and Ecclesiasticall government is for substance lyke vnto you hoping by them to iustifie your selues but how like it is that other Churches can afoord you any help or sauegard when as by the verdict of Gods word you stand cōdemned let the godly iudge Hee hath neede of a staffe that leaneth on a reed And yet even for this your poore proof it is affirmed by some who know those histories that it is a very boast without all truth that the Churches either in Constantines time or a long time after were gathered by compulsion of all tag and rag in the empyre as yours are of all in the kindome or that there were any such Arch Bishops or Lord Bishops with sole authority to rule and governe Besides let the Reader note how in your very Demand you do grauut the great difference betweene the Churches since Calvines time that is betweene all reformed Churches and your vnreformed Church of Enland 6 Demand Your sixt Demand is Whether the reformed Churches in the lower and higher Germany in France the Churches in Geneva c. that come neerer to our constitution and discipline you say then yours in England do be true visible Churches or no c. To this your Demand you haue added two branches depending vppon the former the which I will answer as you haue set them downe one afer another 6 Answer I answer yea they are true visible constituted Churches and haue a true and lawfull ministery set over them both which you in your Parish-assemblies want Then you further demand and say If they be such why then do not we adjoyn our selues to some of those but distaste them you say as much as wee do yours I thinke Sir it had been a poynt of wisedom first to haue heard our answer before you had thus hastily affirmed that we distast them as much as we do yours but Solomon hath answered you for your haste Pro. 29.20 And I will answer your Demand I haue in my