place to the Corinthians is not the only place wherein there is in the Scripture any mention of schisme in an ecclesiasticall sense or that the Church of Corinth was not a particular church is any thing of importance offerd to impaire the assertion that the evill reproved was within the verge of that church and without separation from it and do I need any more to make good to the utmost that which I have asserted but of these things afterwards In all that followes to the end of this chapter I meet with nothing of importance that deserves farther notice that which is spoken is for the most part built upon mistakes as that when I speak of a member or the members of one particular church I intend onely one single congregation exclusively to any other acceptation of that expression in reference to the apprehension of others that I denie the reformed Churches to be true churches because I denie the Church of Rome to be so and denie the institution of a nationall church which yet our Author pleads not for He would have it for granted that because Schisme consists in a difference among church members therefore he that raises such a difference whither he be a member of that church wherein the difference is raised or of any other or no suppose he be a Mahumetan or a Jew is a Schismatick pleads for the old definition of Schisme as suitable to the Scripture after the whole foundation of it is taken away wrests many of my expressions as that in particular in not making the matter of Schisme to be things relating to the worship of God to needlesse discourses about Doctrine and Discipline not apprehending what I intended by that expression of the worship of God and I suppose it not advisable to follow him in such extravagancies The usuall aggravations of Schisme he thought good to reinforce whither he hoped that I would dispute with him about them I cannot tell I shall now assure him that I will not though if I may have his good leave to say so I lay much more weight on those insisted on by my selfe wherein I am encouraged by his approbation of them CHAP. 5. THe third Chapter of my Treatise consisting in the preventing and removing such objections as the precedent discourse might seem lyable and obnoxious unto is proposed to examination by our Reverend Author in the third Chap. of his Booke and the objections mentioned undertaken to be managed by him with what successe some few considerations will evince The first Objection by me proposed was taken from the Common Apprehension of the nature of Schisme and the issue of stateing it as by me layd down namely hence it would follow that the separation of any man or men from a true Church or of one Church from others is not Schisme But now waving for the present the more large consideration of the name thing which yet in the processe of my discourse I do condescend upon according to the principle layd down I say that in the precise signification of the word and description of the thing as given by the holy Ghost this is true no such separation is in the scripture so called or so accounted whither it may not in a large sence be esteemed as such I do not dispute yea I afterwards grant it so farre as to make that concession the bottome and foundation of my whole plea for the vindication of the reformed churches from that crime Our Reverend Author reinforces the objection by sundry instances As 1. that he hath disproved that sence or precise signisication of the word in Scripture how well let the Reader judge 2. That supposing that to be the onely sence mentioned in that case of the Corinthians yet may another sence be intimated in Scripture and deduced by regular and rationall consequence Perhaps this will not be so easy an undertaking this being the onely place where the name is mentioned or thing spoken of in an Ecclesiasticall sence but when any proofe is tendred of what is here affirmed we shall attend unto it It is said indeed that if separation in Judgment in a Church be a Schisme much more to separate from a Church but our question is about the precise notion of the word in Scripture and consequences from thence not about consequents from the nature of things concerning which if our Author had been pleased to have staid a while he would have found me granting as much as he could well desire 3. 1 John 2. 19. is sacrificed {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and interpreted of Schisme Where to make one venture in imitation of our Author All Orthodox Interpreters and writers of controversies expound it of Apostacy neither will the context or arguing of the Apostle admit of another exposition mens wresting of Scripture to give countenance to inveterate errours is one of their worst concomitants so then that seperation from Churches is oftentimes evill is readily granted of what nature that evill is with what are the aggravations of it a judgment is to be made from the pleas and pretences that its circumstances afford so farr as it proceeds from such dissensions as before were mentioned so far it proceeds from schisme but in its own nature absolutely considered it is not so To render my former assertions the more unquestionably evident I consider the severall accounts given of mens blameable departures ' from any Church or Churches mentioned in Scripture and manifest that none of them come under the head of Schisme Apostasy irregularly of walking and professed sensuality are the heads whereunto all blameable departures from the Churches in the Scripture are referred That there are other accounts of this crime our Author doth not assert he onely saies that all or some of the places I produce as instances of a blameable separation from a Church do mind the nature of Schisme as precedaneous to the separation What ere the matter is I do not find him speaking so faintly and with so much caution through his whole discourse as in this place all or some do it they mind the nature of Schisme they mind it as precedaneous to the separation so the summe of what he aims at in contesting about the exposition of those places of Scripture is this some of them do mind I know not how the nature of Schisme which he never once named as precedaneous to separation therefore the precise notion of Schisme in the Scripture doth not denote differences and divisions in a Church only Quod erat demonstrandum That I should spend time in debating a consideration so remote from the state of the controversie in hand I am sure will not be expected by such as understand it Pag. 77. Of my treatise I affirm that for a man to withdraw or withold himselfe from the communion externall and visible of any Church or Churches on that pretention or plea be it true or otherwise that the worship doctrine or
an interest in this church of Jesus Christ Our Reverend Author professes that he hath but little to say to these things some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense in this particular that which he chiefely insists upon is the accommodation of that promise Matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will I build my church to the Church in this sense which he concludes to belong to the visible Church of professors now as I am not at all concerned as to the truth of what I am in confirmation of to which of these it be applyed so I am far from being alone in that application of it to the Catholick Church which I insist upon All our Divines that from hence prove the perseverance of all Individuall believers as all do that I have met withall who write on that subject are of the same mind with me Moreover the Church is built on this rock in its Individuals or I know not how it is so built The building on Christ doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth that it shall allwaies have an existence but the union of the Individualls with him in their being built on him to whom the promise is made I acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe that Christ hath had and ever shall have to the end of the world a visible number of those that professe his name and subjection to his kingdome because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing but that that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence I am not convinced And I would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer and only unto them being willing to vindicate to the Saints of God all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of As to the union of this Church and the breach of it our Reverend Author hath a little to say because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this Church he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union and so consequently a schisme in this body He seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world If he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace or falling for a season I suppose he needs not fear the losse of it whilst this world continues But it is fit wise and learned men should take the Liberty of calling things by what names they please so they will be pleasd withall not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them It is true there may be a Schisme among the members of this church but not as members of this church nor with reference to the union thereof It is granted that schisme is the breach of union but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that which if there were a breach of it were not Schisme However by the way I am bold to tell this Reverend Author that this Doctrine of his concerning schisme in the Catholick invisible Church by the failings in Grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season is a new notion which as he cannot justify to us because it is false so I wonder how he will justify it to himselfe because it is new And what hath been obtained by the Author against my principles in this chapter I cannot perceive The nature of the church in the state considered is not opposed The union asserted not disproved the breach of that union is denyed as I suppose no lesse by him then my selfe That the instances that sōe Saints as mēbers of this Church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season that the members of this Church though not as members of this Church yet on other considerations may be guilty of Schisme concern not the businesse under debate himselfe I hope is satisfied CHAP. 7. OUr progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the Catholick Church visible Who are the members of this church whereof it is constituted what is required to make them so on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church with sundry respects of the church in that sense are in my treatise discussed The union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such I declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell not everted by any of the miscarriages errors or oppositions to it that are there recounted The breach of this union I manifest to consist in apostasy from the profession of the faith and so to be no Schisme upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall pleading the immunity of the Protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union and charging it upon the Romanists in all the waies whereby it may be broken an issue is put to that discourse What course our Reverend Author takes in the examination of this chapter the severalls of it whereon the strength of the controversie dothly is now to be consideed doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called Christians in respect of their profession to be that great multitude who throughout the world professe the Doctrine of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ doth he denie the union of this church or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the Gospell of subjection to Jesus Christ according to them Doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body to be by apostasy from the profession of the Gospell Doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls Independents as such or if he should could he tolerably defend his charge Doth he prove that the breach of this union is under that formality properly Schisme nothing lesse as far as I can gather might not then the trouble of this Chapter have been spared or shall I be necessitated to defend every expression in my book though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate or else Independency must goe for a great Schisme I confesse this is somewhat an hard Law and such as I cannot proceed in obedience unto it without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then I am willing yet I do it with this ingagement that I will so looke to my selfe that he shall never have that power over me any more nor will I upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils exceptions do so again so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so as to be freed from the
on the account of separation from the Catholick church let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the Gospell throughout the world under the limitations expressed that the union of it as such doth not consist in the profession of the truth and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that Church is Schismes otherwise to tell me that I am a Sectary a Schismatick to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church or the like impertinencies will never farther his discourse among men either rationall solid or judicious All that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit with many clamours and false Accusations I am glad to find him p. 120. renouncing ordination from the Authority of the church of Rome as such for I am assured that by his so doing he can claime it no waie from by or through Rome for nothing came to us from thence but what came in and by the Authority of that Church CHAP. IX WE are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this Reverend Authors undertaking namely to treate of the nature of a particular church its union and the breach of that union the description I give of such a church is this It is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in Christ and joint performance of the worship of God in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed This I professe to be a generall description of its nature waving all contests about accurate definitions which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth after some canvassing of this description our Author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church which is more then I intended it for only he adds that according to this description their churches are as true as ours which I presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in Question His ensuing discourse of the will of Christ that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation but in this or that is by me wholly assented ūto and the matter of it contended for by me as I am able what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like I am not at all for the present concerned in I purposely waved all expressions concerning it one way or other that I might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance His argument in the close of the Section for a Presbyterian church from Acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that Church and therefore it was not one single congregation I do not understand I think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of Christ unlesse there be more elders then one it there should be elders in every Church and for my part so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches I am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference as to a Presbyterian church or a single congregation And though I be reproved a new for my pains I may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work Proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church he takes notice of three things laid down by me previously to what I was farther to assert all which he grants to be true but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions The two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the Catholick invisible church and 2 of the visible Catholick church and yet not be joyned to a particular Church These as I said he ownes to be true but askes how I can reconcile this with what I said before namely that the members of the Catholick visible Church are initiated into the profession of the faith by Baptisme but where lies the difference why saith he Baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular Church whilst he will grant what yet he doth denie but will be forced to grant that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church even to the Catholick Church and may administer Baptisme out of a particular church as Phillip did to the Eunuch A. How well this Author is acquainted with my principles hath been already manifested as to his present mistake I shall not complaine seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it from an expression of mine at least as it is printed of which I shall speak afterwards for the present he may be pleased to take notice that I am so far from confining Baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation that I do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized Baptisme precedes admission into Church membership as to a particular Church the subject of it is professing believers and their seed as such they have right unto it whither they be joined to any particular church or no suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise I desire also to know who told him that I deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own Church or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word I grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the Catholick church but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto The third thing laid down by me whereunto also he assentes is that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those Churches that there he may abide in Doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer but my reasons whereby I prove this he saies he likes not so well and truly I cannot helpe it I have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me Let him be pleased to furnish me with better and I shall make use of them but yet when he shall attempt so to doe it is odds but that one or other will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine But this he saith he shall make use of and that he shall make advantage of and I know not what as if he were playing a prize upon a stage The third reason is that which he likes
hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years For the rest of those principles which he excepts against as he thinks meet I leave their consideration to that farther enquiry which the Lord assisting I have destined them unto The way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers he saies is very pretty and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case but as I can tell him of that which is neither true nor pretty in the practise of some whom he knowes or hath reason so to do so I can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme and with them who may possibly be so it is a ridiculous thing to think it an objection And for that part of my enquiry whether the Church be before ordinary officers or they before it as sleight as he is pleased to make of it it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences and the right stating of it to conduce to the composure and determination of them His charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage are not now to be further mentioned we have had them over and over indeed we have had little else If strong vehement passionate affirmations complaints charges falfe imputations and the like will amount to a demonstration in this businesse he hath demonstrated Independentisme to be a great Schisme He shuts up his discourse as he began it reciting my words by adding interposing perverting commenting enquiring he makes them speak what he pleases and compasses the ends of his delight upon them What contentment he hath received in his so doing I know not nor shall I expresse what thoughts I have of such a course of proceedure This only I shall say it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto My last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter and to gather up in our passage what may seem to respect the businesse in hand and so the whole matter will be dismissed The plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of Schisme with reference to the Episcopall Government of the Church of England and the constitution which under it it is pretended to have had he passes over though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded In that treatise The things he is pleased to take notice of as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us shall be reviewed Considering the severall senses wherein that expression the church of England may be taken I manifest in my treatise in which of them and how far we acknowledg our selves to have been and to continue members of the Church of England The first is as it comprises the elect believers in England what the unity of the Church in this sense is was before evinced our desire to be found members of this Church with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace was declared I am greived to repeat our Reverend Authors exceptions to this declaration saies he unlesse he think there are no members of this church in England but those that are of his formed particular churches I fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them And why so I pray The union of the members of the church in this sense consists in their joint union to with Christ their head by one spirit What hath the Reverend Author to charge upon me with reference thereunto Let him speak out to the utmost yea I have some reason to think that he will scarce spare where he can strike God forbid that I should think all the members of the Catholick Church in England to be comprised either jointly or severally in their Churches or ours seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division I doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us He adds that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us to make the Invisible Church visible It is confessed we do so yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect and under one formall consideration is visible as to its profession which it makes unto salvation This with all that lies in us we draw them out unto what he addes about the churches being elect and the uncomely parts of it which they may be for a season who are elect believers because it must be spoken are uselesse cavills For the scornfull rejection of what I affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts because he will one day know that the words he so despises were spoken in sincerity and with the reverence of the great God out of love to all his Saints I shall not farther vindicate them such hay and stubble must needs burn My next profession of our Relation to the Church of England in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this Nation cleaving to the Doctrine of the Gospell here preached and established by Law as the publike profession of this Nation But he tels me first 1. That many Independent Churches in this Nation are grosly apostatized from that doctrine and so are hereticall 2. That the worship was professed and protested and established as well as the doctrine and that we are all departed from it and so are schismaticall for we hold communion with them he sayes in the same doctrine but not in the same worship Answer His first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of from his large use of the word Independent which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth In the sense before declared his charge is denyed Let him prove it by instance if he be able surely God hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please without due regard to love and truth 2. As to the worship established in this nation by law he means the way of worship for the substantials of it we are all agreed in I suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme if he do I know what use some men will make of his affirmation though I know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall for his renewed charg of schisme I cannot I confesse be moved at it proceeding from him who neither doth nor will know what it is His next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in England saying could they make use of our preaching c. but the truth is when the most of us