the Pastours of our reformed Churches having in common had even an ordinarie calling and therewith holding the true Apostolike doctrine wee are the true successours of the Apostles and not our adversaries as they both vainly falsly boast For as Ireneus saith Eu qui in Ecclesia sunt Presbyteris obedire oportet his qui successionem habent Apostolis sicut ostendimus qui cùm Episcopatus successione charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris acceperunt reliquos verâ— qui obsistunt à principali successione suspectos babere that is we must obey such Pastours as are in the Church these who as we have shewed have a successioÌ„ to the Apostles namely who with Episcopall succession have also according to the pleasure of the Father receaved the gift of truth but all others who slyde away from this principall succession we must suspect And in another place he noteth those to be only true successours apud quâ—s est caquâ— est ab Apostolis successio id quod est irreprobabile sermoâ—â—â— constat with whom is that succession which is froÌ„ the Apostles and with whom constantly abydes that word which cannot be improved quia as saith Augustin nec Catholicis Episcopis consentiendum sicubi falluntur vt contra Canonicâ—s Scripturas aliquid sentiant For we ought not consent no not to Catholike Bishops if any where they be deceaved so as they hold any opinion coÌ„trarie to the Canonik scriptures and it holdeth ever true that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as saith Gregorie Nazianzen his words are notable and which alone are even enough to oppose to all our adversaries shameles brags of bare succession they are to this sense the succession of pietie is properlie to be bolden Succession for who professeth the same doctrine of faith he is partner of the same chaire but who embraceth a contrarie faith he ought to bee accounted an adversarie albeit even sitting in the chaire this indeed hath the name but the other hath the substance and truth of succession 5. Where-vpon this our acclaiming even of ordinarie calling they inferre against vs that we iustifie them to be the true church and that consequently we have made defection therefrom in so farre as we could have no such ordinarie vocation but with and amongst them it is a childish fallacie from themselves but a part in the Church and yet not of it even the abhomination of desolation staÌ„ding in the holy places as saith Chrisostom to the whole church or rather to the true Church which is both within the church and of the church For as within the vsible church in sanctis Ecclesiâ— locis are both Christ and Antichrist truth and lyes Pastours Wolves sheepe and goates wheat chaffe and now and then either of them obtaine beare sway in totâ—â—cclesia commuâ—iter in the whole church in common but never universaliter in singulis vniversally in each one so both of vs our adversaries and we who contest with them beeing within the visible Church the true defence of either partie were by the right rule of examinaâ—ion to proove them selues so to bee in the church as that they ar also of it and not by impudent and ridiculous assuming what is in question to flee all tryall Wee never denyed Antichrist to be in the church and as was foretold of him to have so far prevailed therin by force of errour standulent pretence of the Lambe his hornes as he obtained place and ruled in tota Ecclesia communiter in the whole church in coÌ„mon but à toto communiter from the whole in coÌ„mon to conclude ad vniversum singulariter to vniversalliâ— each one it is a deceitfull aequivocation 6. Here yet they think vs intangled in a great incoÌ„venient for that the Bishop of Rome whom we hold to be Antichrist having bin for som ages acknowledged ministerial head of the church the outward ordinatioÌ„ of al churchmen either mediatly or immediatly flowing froÌ„ him wee must coÌ„fesse vs to have no ordinarie calling at all or then that we have it from Antichrist so as they think vs hereby reduced to one of these necessities either to refuse al ordinary vocatioÌ„ or then for maintaining of our ordinary callings to iustifie their Pope from whoÌ„ they have proceded and so coÌ„sequently to coÌ„demne al our owne both church doctrine But while they think vs intrapped we are by an open way escaped for we both yeeld that our ordinary vocatioÌ„ hath outwardly in a sort proceded froÌ„ the Bishop of Rome that he is notwithstanding that very Antichrist man of sin And to shew how these two so apparaÌ„tly repugnant points do yet very wel coÌ„sist without any either discredit or derogation to the dignitie or lawfulnes of our callings we have rightly to wey the distinct coÌ„ditions of Antichrist as he coÌ„meth to be diversly coÌ„sidered in his first hatching yea the many insensible flow long succeeding degrees of his grouth towards that height whereby against al that is called god Satan his throne was erected in the mids of the church and againe in that toppe of impietie whereto the mystery of iniquitie did mount vp by time nemo enim repente fit turpissimus for none becommeth extreamlie evill at once for even from the Apostolike times that mischiefe was a workinge and albeit first by slow and insensible and next by more speedie and sensible degrees and even in the height thereof it had yet two degrees In that first like a fraudulent Parde albeit having on his head the name of blasphemie the beast deceaved and as Balaam crastily laying stumbling blockes bewitched the earth as in Pergamus And secondlie by increase of crueltie and impietie he became all of the Dragon his colour and had his whole body full of the names of blasphemie the Whoore borne vp by him being druÌ„kt with the blood of Saintes and furiouslie as Iezabel an impudent cruell queein domining in Thyatira and yet still in both these states he was long so borne out with Propheticall pretence as even the true Church lurking vnder and within his compas where Sathan his throne was yet had her eyes so dazeled and courage so quailed with the glistring shew proud pretence of Pastorall and Propheticall authoritie that howsoever shee keeped her selfe pure from his spirituall fornication and held the name of God yet shee had not either the knowledge or courage to challenge directlie the impious vsurpation which was indeed an argument of the true Church her weaknes and that Christ had therein somewhat against her but no argument for all that why either she so dwelling in weaknes tolerating that evill was not the true Church or that Balaam and Iezabel thus tolerated of her were not that false prophet and mysticall whoore 7. An other consideration of Antichrist is that hee is no outward enemie openlie and directly fighting against the ensigne of profession and name
of Christ but an inward traytour deceaving by the ensigne and that so cunninglie and covertlie as a long time not only his characterized ones who only of his favoures are partakers both of his treason and endles iudgement but also many simple sheepe deceaved by the semblance of the Lambe his hornes and in singlenes of heart following the ensigne were made so to follow him and to receave his name albeit they receaved never his character nor learned the deeepnes of Satan and many also who never either receaved character or name yet lurking within him and shrouded vnder the common ensigne of profession receaved the number of his name that is were numbred and counted to be his albeit in effect they were none of his either by acceptation of character or name For hee treading downe the holy Citie Court of the Temple that is domining and ruling in the visible church and along time ouerthrowing therein all true worshippe as did Iezabel in Israel 42. monethes or three yeares and a halfe Antiochus Epiphanes in Ierusalem the same space all which time of his vsurpation the true church within his compas continuallie lurking as the Temple within the Citie and Court No other possible accesse could bee to the Temple the true Church but through the Citie and Court the visible Church wherein Antichrist sitting that is Domining all Christians behooved of necessitie to ioine to that body where was the common ensigne which howsoever or by whomsoever caried yet it was ever oportunum inquirendi exordium convenient entrie to inquire by and so alwayes many comming thither and spying the pollution of the Citie and court of the Temple they stepped in to the Temple where continually therefore in a close and deepe wisdome that case is numbred by dayes al the time of Antichrist his most absolut prevayling was the true church and true and faithfull Ministers of grace and light and albeit few and long lurking in heavines yet powerfully dispensing light and grace free from open and barbarous persecution till the little booke opened and obtained out of the hand of the great Angell and greedilie and sweetlie swallowed inabled and stirred them by the right measuring reed to examine the church and thereby to finde that citie and court were to bee cast out whereat the beast Antichrist highly chaffed murthereth first even with applause those true Ministers But God still stirring vp others in the same spirit at last a visible separation is made not from the Church as our adversaries vainlie pratle but from Antichrist and the long covered traitour in the church So as then truth and true professours within the church onely of the church but long borne down and lurking through prevailing errour at length begun to becom visible to the terrour and astonishment of their adversaries and to obtain and beare sway by the discoverie fall of Antichrist Whose sacrilegious impietie having come to such height as it could no longer bee covered or borne it was then said to the revived witnesses Come vp hither and their enemies saw them and were afrayde that is the long lurking afflicted and at last murthered ones become visible even to their enemies who first imagined none such to bee and next that they could bee no more and to their griefe and terrour are seene and knowen to beare away the title of the true Church in that place as through all that Prophecie signified by the name of heaven in opposition to the earth and earthlie ones Wee have not only stronge and invincible argumentes but even therewith such cleare foretolde storie of all the ryfinge grouth doctrine dealing and fall of Antichrist And of the continuall manner of God his gracious dispensation towardes his true Church lurking vnder him afflicted by him and victorious over him as that wherein our adversaries glorie most turneth most to their shame and that wherewith they most reproache our Church speaketh stronglie for vs. And the Lorde his wise providence for preserving thus his Church in the middes of Antichristian vsurpation while he appeared to possesse all was wonderfull in that even in time of greatest corruption yet a sure accesse and free way was still reserved and kept thorough the Citie and Court to the Temple the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance remayning and the doctrine of the Trinitie beeing kept sounde 8. Wee are so farre from denying to Antichrist a place yea and an ordinarie calling in the Church that wee affirme constantlie that so it must have beene And that not onely hee behooved to bee in it but also Sit that is beare rule therein But so wee grant him to bee in it as yet hee is none of it more then a boile or apostume in the body is a member of the body so wee grant him to have had rule and ordinarie calling in the Church as had these Husband-men to whom indeed the Vineyard was set but they murthered the heire such an ordinarie builder wee confesse him to bee as reiecteth that stone which yet in despyte of him becommeth head of the corner Wee yeeld him the ordinarie vocation of a Pastour but that hee is a wolfe to have beene sometime a starre of heaven and minister of light and of the keyes of the kingdome but to have fallen to the earth to have changed the keyes of heaven in those of the bottomlesse pit and to have become the minister of darknes whereby hee hath darkened Sunne Moone and Aire Sathan having bene once by Michael his valour so powerfullie cast downe from heaven had never againe bene able by the beast of his authoritie to erect his throne even in the Temple of God if hee had not pretended the Lambe his hornes neither had hee ever bene able to sende out our Sampson his ridle if hee had not plowed with his heifer Now then seeing that Antichrist of an order succession of degenerating Pastours and that not at once but slowlie and by degrees hath slylie arissen to that height of impietie as a beast rising out of the earth Sensim imperare incipiebat religio habenas imperij capere ius suum acquirere nibil subitum nihil tumultuarium sayth their owne parasite Steuchus And seeing that alwayes before his discoverie the pretence of the common ensigne carried him out and that there-through many true both Pastours and Professours receaving his name or his number but not his character did come in singlenes to the cōmon ensigne not properlie to him seeing that albeit he was a Wolf yet before it was said to the revived witnesses Come vp hither he brooked stil the place of an ordinarie Pastour and seeing that outward ordination and all the action of the ministers thereof serveth but for outward order all inward gift grace power and vertue comming from God the author of the calling what absurditie is it that a good Pastor receave ordination of a
Satans throne in it and the vndoubted subversion of their execrable Ilium they cry out a great cry and a bitter That if thus men once depart from the iudgement of the Church what certain warrant can they ever finde to stay on or What guyde can they be sure to follow for finding out of truth So still they cease not to dallie and shameleslie in one sort Wee would not have men to depart from the iudgement of the Church which is the piller and stable seate of truth and without which is neither veritie nor lyfe but howe much we are necessarilie to cleave thereto so much the more carefullie by the right rule of examination to trye and discerne betwixt the Church and the pretending harlot and to this end the Lord hath given vs his word his spirit and in all ages hath recommended them to his owne children as vndoubted guydes in all doubtfull cases so vnder the lawe men are ever exhorted to the lawe the Testimonie David and the Prophets direct al men alwayes thereto they have the Lawe and the Prophets saith Abraham in parables And our Lord for cleare testimonie of himselfe biddeth the Iewes search the scriptures Peter from an other spirit then have our adversaries calleth the word of the Prophets a sure and certaine word and exhorteth to attend thereto And Paul even vpon this that the Church is the house of God the piller and stable seat of trueth and that godlines is a great mysterie groundeth both a reason why hee did write to Timothie and an earnest exhortation to take heed to the reading of the scripturs for that many diverting therefroÌ„ and giving themselves to spirits of error and fables should fall from the truth and teach doctrines of Devils We read many warning not to be miscaried with common errors or the authoritie of men yea as I have before touched divers times both Pastors and people in common are taxed for falling away from the word We are exhorted carefullie to proove and try what word men doe offer vnto vs but never in all scripture have we so much as one mine of secure relying vpon the authoritie of ordinarie Pastors without due examination and the iudgement of al sound antiquitie accordeth hereto One of the Fathers saith thus Qui vuls cognoscere quae sit vera ecclesia non cognoscat nisi tautummâ—dâ— per scripturas and sone after Christiani ergo volentes firmitatem accipere doctrina verae ad nullam rem fugiant nisi ad Scripturas aliâ—qui si ad alia respexerint scandaliz abuntur peribunt non intelligentes quâ— sit vera ecclesia per hoc incident in abhominationem desolationis quâ— stat in sanctis ecclesiâ— locis the place is remarkeable in English thus who wil know which is the true church let him not seeke to know it but only by the scriptures c. Christians then willing to receave the stable assurance of true doctrine let them runne to nothing but to the scriptures otherwayes if they look to ought else they shall stumble and perish not vnderstanding which is the true Church and shall fall hereby in the abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holy places of the church This same is yet more plainly shewed in these wordes quum videritis c. that is when ye shall see vngodly heresie which is the armie of Antichrist standing in the holy places of the Church then let them who are in Iudea flee to the mountaines that is they who are of christianitie addresse themselves to the scriptures because when once that heresie hath obtained place in these Churches there can bee no tryall of true christianitie neither any other refuge for christians willing to know the veritie of the faith but the divine and holy Scriptures And the same Chrisostome in the same place Antea multis modis c. before many wayes was shewed which was the Church of Christ but nowe no maner of way but by the Scriptures Thus is cleare not only that the scripture is the sole rule of tryall but that the necessarie reason why only to have recourse thereto is Antichrist his obtaining so farre within the Church as to escape the abhomination of desolation standing therein also wee must runne and runne only to the Scriptures Non enim per alium saieth Ireneus dispositionem salutis nâ—strae cognovimus quam per eos per quos Evangelium pervenit ad nâ—â— quod quidem tunc praecomaverunt postea verâ— per Dei volâ—â—tatem in scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrâ— futurum that is for by none other have wee knowne the disposition of our salvation but by these by whom the Gospell hath come vnto vs which then they preached and thereafter by the will of God delivered to vs in the Scriptures to remain in all tymes to come the foundation and piller of our faith The same father in another place speaketh thus Plantatus est enim Ecclesiae Paradisus iâ— hoc mundo ab omni ergo ligno Pâ—radisi manducabis id est ab omni scriptura dominica c. that is for the Paradise of the Church is planted in this world thou shall eat therefore of every tree of Paradise that is of all the Lord his Scripture And as Ierome sayeth both pleasantly and pertinently When ever the Church looketh to any other warrant egreditur de finibus suis she passeth out of her owne bounds let any man in whom is left any spunk of spirituall sense conferre these sayings of the Fathers with the dealing and doctrine of Rome now labouring ever to divert men from this Paradise of the Scriptures where only is the fruit of lyfe to a barren wildernes without water and Cisternes of their owne digging and thus making millions to fall in that abhomination of desolation which standeth in the holy places of the Church but their soares are seene they shal prevaile no longer 22. They exclame here against vs that thus we pervert all order in God his house making every privat Christian iudge over Pastours and subduing the spirit of the Church to every privat spirit And O how they both please themselves and play themselves in amplifying the absurditie as they think of this point But to calme a little their chear heerein First I aske them is it not a common direction for all Christians to trye spirits and not to believe every spirit Are we not coÌ„manded to proove al things to hold that which is good Are we not often carefully exhorted to beware of false Prophets While they cannot or dare not though they would gainsay so cleare Scripture they runne to this that the only sure trial is to acquiesce in the iudgement of the Church But shameles men is not this all one thing as if they said the best triall were to â—se no triall at all And what doe they hereby but still assume the question It is
his spirit dwelling in vs to proove things that they notwithstanding dare so malapertlie exact of Christians a blind obedience and implicit faith Who setteth any wares a seale boasting of their fynesse and yet in any case will not have them lookt on or tryed but will bee blindlings believed vpon his baire word for me I would never seeke any greater argument that hee were a thiefe and no true marchant The Romanists plead stoutlie that the truth is with them why Because they are the Church and why the Church Because they have an ordinarie succession of Pastours since the Apostolik tymes If here you vrge that in so farre as often personall succession holdeth not the same doctrine but even all in common have and may fall therefrom therefore to approove themselves true successours to the Apostles they must also verifie themselves to hold the same doctrine then their hearts brust for anger and they will gnashe at you with their teeth and crie out fye on such an heretike as once thinketh such a blasphemie That no such thing hath befallen or possiblie could befall the Church If yet they bee requyred to bring then their doctrine to due examination by the written worde No but you must fide implicita believe them vpon their word And albeit Scripture did seeme never so farre to condemne them yet you must not suspect any evill of them why Because that is onely the true sense of Scripture which they approve so as you must not so much as doubt or once call in question their interpretation And why Because foresooth they are the Church Is not this proudlie to mocke God and impudentlie to delude men Is not this to picke out the eies of the worlde to cary them blindfolded as oxen to the slaughter and as fooles to the stockes for correction Augustin pleading for the truth and having trulie for him all which our adversaries doe falslie glorie of yet sheweth that he was of another spirit which taught him that verity was otherwayes to bee defended then by such subterfuges as they in an evill conscience flee to His words are these Nemo nostrum dicat jam inveâ—isse veritatem sic â—am queramus quasi ab vtrisque nesciatur Ita enim diligenter concorditer queri potest si nulla temeraria praesumptione inventa cognita esse credatur aut si hoc à vobis impetrare non possumus saltem illud concedite vt vos tanquam incognitos nunc primum audiam nunc primum discutiam justum puto esse quod postulo hac sane lege servata vt vobiscum non orem non conventicula celebrem non Manichaei nomen accipiam si non mihi de omnibus rebus ad salutem animae pertinentibus sine vlla caligine rationem perspicuam dederis That is let none of vs say that he hath alreadie found out the truth let vs so seek it as if it were vnknowen to vs both For so it may be diligentlie and peaceably sought out if in a rashe presumption men doe not esteeme that they have alreadie found and knowen it Or if neither this can be obtained of you yet grant me that other at least that I may now first heare you and now first trye you as vnknowen before I think it bee an equitable thing which I crave observing foresooth this rule that I neither pray with you nor keep conventicles nor take the name of a Manichaean except of all things concerning the salvation of my soule you give me without any obscuritie a most cleare reason And in that same place vt ergo hanc omittam sapientiam quam in Ecclesia esse Catholica non creditis multa sunt alia quae in â—ius gremio me justissime teneant Tenet consensus populorum atque gentium tenet authoritas miraculis inchoata spe nutrita charitate aucta vetustate firmata tenet ab ipsa sede Petri Apostoli cui pascendas oves suas post resurrectionem Dominus commendavit vsque ad presentem episcopatum successio sacerdotum c. Ista ergo tot tanta Christiani nominis charissima vincula recte hominem tenent credentem in Catholica Ecclesia etiamsi propter nostrae intelligentiae tarditatem vel vita meritâ—m veritas nondum se apertissime â—stendat Apud vos autem â—â—i nihil horum est quod me invitet ac teneat sola personat veritatis pollicitatiâ— quaequidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubiuâ— veâ—iâ—e non possit praeponenda est omnibus illâ—s rebus quibus in Cathâ—lica teneoâ— that is to passe by then that wisedome which you beleeve not to be within the Catholike Church there be many other things also which most iustlie doe holde me within her bosome the consent of peoples and nations the authority by miracle begon nourished by hope increased by love and stablished by antiquitie a succession of Priestes from the selfe seat of Peter the Apostle to whom Christ after his resurrection recommended the feeding of his sheepe even to this present Bishoprike c. These then so many and deare bands of christianitie doe rightlie hold a maÌ„ beleeving within the catholik churh though for the slownes of our vnderstanding or merit of our life the truth do not as yet most plainly shew it selfe But with you where none of these are either to draw â—e or detaine me nothing soundeth but a bare promise of the truth which notwithstanding if you can so evidentlie shew as it cannot be doubted of it is to be preferred to all these other things whereby I am holden within the Catholike Church 23. But this truth say they can neither bee shewed but by the church which only hath it neither could men bee otherwayes induced to beleeve the Gospell except therewith the authoritie of the church did move theÌ„ as Augustin speaketh ego vero Evangelio noÌ„ crederem nisi me ecclesiae commoveret authoritaâ— We denie not that the church only hath and sheweth the truth Yea we grant also that according to Augustin his mind in that place the authority of the church is the ordinarie and necessarie motive whereby a infidell who neither knoweth Christ nor beleeveth the Gospell may wil be first induced to reverence religion but it is but a coÌ„motive and as the same Augustin speaketh oportunuÌ„ inquirendi exordium so as albeit men be so stirred to revereÌ„ce inquire yet they rest not vpoÌ„ this that the church saith so no more theÌ„ did the Samaritans vpon their womans report but because by the word spirit they finde that shee speaketh true non iam hominibus sed Deo intrinsecus mentem illuminante atque firmante for as in his testimonie little above cited he saith there be many things which be great motives to hold a man in the bosome of the church yet trueth manifested is to be preferred to all and as truth is only in the church and shewed onely by the Church so is it
to the purpose of grace hath alwayes and ever shall holde the foundation without which shee could be no true Church at all But from the true Church and elect to the visible Church the argument concludeth not Next againe albeit in a right sense it be true of the visible Church that she ever holdeth the foundation because within the compasse of the visible Church the true militant Church abydeth alwayes as vnder the common ensigne yet hereupon to conclude that alwayes visibly the visible Church tota communiter whole in common doth hold the foundation it is a seene fallacie for she may fall from the foundation tota communiter the whole in common but never vniversaliter singuli in ea vniversally each one within her And howesoever mine adversarie will not yeeld me this point yet hee can not but condescend that this is here the state of our question whither I have in my first signed wordes graunted so much as will cōclude cleerly against my selfe that even the visible Church whole in common ever holdeth the foundation which is the assumption of this syllogisme which he thinketh to prove out of mine own words thus VVhere the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance remaineth and doctrine of the Trinitie is keeped sound that Church holdeth the foundation But in the Church alwayes even in time of greatest corruption the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance remained the doctrine of the Trinitie was keeped sound Therfore the Church alwayes even in time of greatest corruption held the foundation and consequently no place was at any time in her since her first constitution to extraordinarie calling VVhich is contrarie to my position The proposition hath an equivocation which to discover and so to avoid the deceit intended thereby I distinguishe thus If by the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance bee vnderstoode all the substantiall matter by Baptisme represented to our knowledge sealed vp through faith in our conscience and all the grace thereby through the cooperation of the holy Ghost conferred to vs and if by the doctrine of the Trinitie be vnderstood whatsoever we are taught and doe beleeve of that triple one either in himself or his dispensation towards vs and our duetie againe to him in that sense I yeeld the proposition to be true But if by the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance remaining be vnderstood only the sacramental action in the substantiall rites thereof so making it still to bee counted lawfull baptisme in substance albeit otherwayes miserablie infected with many superfluous and superstitious ceremonies and if by the doctrine of the Trinitie no more be vnderstood but that only one point of God one in substance and three in persons without which and the solemne invocation thereof in baptisme even the substance of that Sacrament were abolished then the proposition is clearlie false And the proponer would but illude in the words Substance and Doctrine except hee will affirme that for the foundation of our faith no more were requisite but these only two points And thus outtaking Samosatenus Sabellius Arrius and Manes and such others as either before or after them vnder whatsoever divers names symbolized with their particular errours all heretikes of whatsoever sect or tyme shal be reputed to have holden the foundation So shall Nestorius Eutiches and Appollinaris bee absolved from fundamentall errours so shall the denyers of the resurrection so shall the followers of spirits of errours and teaching doctrines of devills so shall the Nicolaitans teaching and committing fornication and idolatrie have kept the foundation Shall not the incarnation of the aeternall Sonne the personall vnion of the assumer and assumed the naturall veritie of both natures in that one person bee counted foundamentall Shall not the onely mediation and merit of that Person his Propheticall Priestlie and Royal offices and actions thereof the perfection efficacy and vertue of all be counted foundamentall Or shall the bare holding of GOD one in substance and three in persons bee any foundation at al to such as in the other points doe overthrow it It is strange that one acknowledging that the baptized by heretiks are not to bee rebaptized consequently acknowledging the baptisme ministred by them to be baptisme in substance which yet it could not be without the invocation of the Trinitie should yet vpō baptisme remayning in substance and that one point of the trinitie of persons thinke the foundation to be keeped when not onely open perverters and direct oppugners of foundamentall points but also adders of anie other to that only one foundation by the Apostle his sentence doe even fall from the foundation which otherwayes they would appeare both to professe and keepe The Sacrament of Baptisme and sounde doctrine of the Trinitie still kept in the visible Church and even in tota communiter was ever a sure and free entrie and as Augustin speaketh opportunum inquirendi exordium a common and convenient beginning to inquire by but yet so as who thereby entring held the straight course to the Temple where were the Candlestickes and the Olives and to mount Sion where was the Lambe These indeed held the foundation and the gates of hell never prevayled against them But who entring by that common entrie declyned from the right way leading to the Temple and mount Sion and did fall aside vpon and rest in the common pollution of Citie and Court following wondering after and worshipping the Beast and the Dragon even that abhomination of desolation standing also within the visible Church in Sanctis Ecclesiae locis as sayeth Chrisostome these fell so from the foundation as even that which to the others was the entrie and faire way to the Temple and Mountaine was to them of no more value then if they had never entered at all For that in missing of the rest they loosed even that also which otherwayes they appeared to have as in the foundation of a large Citie who raiseth so the building as hee keepeth but one stone of all must of necessity even fall from that also and bee no otherwayes said to hold the foundation then Saul pleaded that hee had fulfilled the commandement of the Lord which notwithstanding the Prophet affirmed hee had casten away and therefore was justly cast away of the Lord from being king of Israel Thus then the proposition of his argument being evidently false his conclusion also faileth and my two places doe well and clearly consist And considering how we doe charge the Church of Rome with intollerable prevarications almost in all fundamentall points against that one GOD in giving his glorie to creatures against the verity of Christ his humane nature by their prodigious transubstantiation against al his mediation offices and actions thereof by many fold and sacrilegious derogation vsurpation mutilation and overthrow of all the perfection fruit force and effect thereof so as the censurer cannot dissemble the cleare knowledge of my meaning in granting them the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance and
have perhaps coniectured as I know somwhat the manner and meaninges of these men what surder hee would particularly have said by his other draughts which he hath drawn frequently and only on the 7. 8. sections but having cleared the maine point I will not dally impertinently with him or struggle with mine own shadow as even of this I have here done he may perhaps say and you even therfore esteeme it true but I am sure I have either mett with his minde or then hee shall not bee able to render any other such reason of his challenge which shall not bee found as little or lesse to his credit And when ever his dumb draughts are made speaking lines vppon the little I have lookt in them I dare give my worde that they shall bewray weaknes of sense defect of sinceritie or fraudulent shifting of the questioÌ„ Now as my treatise was written but for information of modest minds and neither for any who will not be cured neither yet to moove or to maintain iangling with any an exercise both fruitles evill beseeming Christians so now for ought your man could either have said or signed I would not have interchanged one lyne with him I know what is the efficacie of errour and bewitching force of the cuppe of forniation in refractary seducers I know that not onely the blind leaders of the blind but even such as are joyned to their Idoles are to be let alone And that such as would appeare to aske counsell of a Prophet having set vp their Idols in their hearts having put the stumbling bloke of their iniquity before their eies the Lord wil eveÌ„ in iustice answer theÌ„ according to the multitude of their Idols But these pages ar to you in remeÌ„braÌ„ce of my offer once made you if I should find any assurance of a syncere disposition in al singlenes laying a syde preiudice that you wouâ—d vprightly heare and learne and with an vnpartial heart try ponder both parts giving vs the one eare and alike attension with such other signes of indifferent affectioÌ„ as might assure vs of halfe barr and aequall bench in the seat of your iudgement and so much the more as you have these yeeres past given vs evidences of a heart quite alienated from vs and as wee plead from the truth also And albeit as yet we have gotten of you small or no tokens of any such intention yet I would not leave you this to say that I had failed you promise at the first as neither if I can yet see your mynd sincerely carefully and humbly set for resolution wil I in this sort or any other kynd of paines wearie to doe you pleasure according to my power in Christ. But if either you or any other lust to be contentious wee have no such manner neither the Church of God Now God even the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ according to his good pleasure abouÌ„dantly ritch grace graunt vs that our love may more and more abound in knowledge and all spirituall sense whereby we may bee able to discerne things that differ and prooving all to hold that which is good that wee may bee syncere and without offence till the day of Christ. Yours in Christ P. FORBES of Coirse A SHORT DISCOVERIE OF THE ADVERSARIE HIS DOTTAGE IN HIS IMPERTINENT AND ridiculously deceitfull demaunds THat thou mayest perceave Christian Reader how foolish fruitles a labour it is to dispute with these men When their pamphlet against our callings which stirred me to defence was put abroad it was backed by the applauders thereof with insolent braggs that no answere either would or could possibly be given it that though twenty answers were made thereto yet they should all be refelled with al 's many sound replyes Herevpon at the intreaty of some well affected brethren least the hearts of our weake ones should be dismayed I was mooved to writ my treatise of defence whereof a copy falling in the adversarie his handes and that without my knowledge and against my purpose who hating contention framed my paines onely for resolution of modest minds I heard divers and daylie surmises from them that my treatise would be in short tyme solidly refuted And I accordingly more exspecting what a traveling mountaine would bring foorth then mynding any reply therto at last my copy returned to me carying such notes of a censuring penne as occasioned my epistle to a recusant Wherevpon their boast of refutation still waxing and I thereby exspecting some what more then in end to find but a ridiculous mouse were brought to me at length after many weekes from the partie and delivered with no small circumstance forsooth and earnest protestation of an answer in writ these ensuing lines It is to be demanded of the ministerie for the true resolution of a Christian soule which if they resolve not wee will account them c. SEeing the Ministers of Scotland graunts the church of Rome to have been once the true Church of Christ wee desire them to thew in what yeare of God shee made first defection from the true religion and by whom shee was condemned for heresie Likewayes wee desire to know the names of these who since the Church of Rome fell from the trueth hes continually from time to time and age to age professed this religion in all substantiall pointes of doctrine as they presently professe whose doctrine and writings in all pointes of religion they will advow and byde by NOw consider good Reader what either pitifull ignorance or rather poysonable perversnes of an inpudently evill conscience these demaundes bewray most evidentlie Our disputation was about the lawfulnes or vnlawfulnes of our Pastorall callings This they by their treatise laboured to evince I by my defence pleaded the other In this our litis-contestation partly by dumbe partlie by speaking signes and draughtes set by them on the margent or drawen betwixt the lines of my booke they sought at first that it might seeme they had somewhat to say against me Therevpon in my epistle to a Recusant I sustained my point Now in steed of replying ought either for confirming their owne or impugning my part of our debated matter the question is whither impudently or ignorantly altered and from the institut point of our vocation like slipperie Iles they slyde backe to new demaundes of our doctrine Is this I pray you to dispute or to dallie Are these the fresh fyrie edged schoolmen arrived lately and with so great exspectation of working wonders from Paris Lovan Rhems Rome shaping shooting and slopping men through with syllogismes who neither can propoune ought or sustaine to heare any answere but in forma figura that nowe they forget not only all forme and figure but therewith all both mense and sense also in so shamelesly shifting the question casting in kowardly a kard of another kynd why remembred they not their owne offer so often and confidently made vs by worde write
Church why doe our adversaries make no end of bitter contention against vs We have indeed great sure promises that the gates of hell shall not prevaile against his Church but that the ordinarie Ministers shall alwayes and all in common holde the trueth not one syllable yea contrarie we have not only manie and serious warnings of false prophetes to arise in the bowells of the church in sheepes clothing but also most clearlie foretold that such an Apostasie should come whereby Antichrist in al effectual deceyt should even sit and beare rule in the Temple of God If they will saye that the Church of Israel had not such promises of continuall presence and preservation of truth as the Christian Church hath It is a treacherous sophisme For they had also sure promises of continuall presence and preservation of truth according to the measure dispensed albeit not of so great measure of presence and light And as for that point whereof our adversaries glorie most and wherein now at last they are faine to place all defence namelie the prerogative of places and persons the Church of Israell had much more for them in so ample and many promises made of Ierusalem And to the house of Levie and familie of Aaron where as the Church vnder the Gospell in which neither at Ierusalem nor in any mountaine but every-where and of all men God is to bee worshipped in spirit and truth albeit having great sure promises of presence and preservation yet of tying God or his truth to any places or persons in all Scripture shee hath not so much as any shew of a warrant which if the holy Ghost had minded hee might with much lesse ado have reduced those many grave and earnest warnings given both by Christ in the dayes of his fleshe and by his Apostles thereafter of the perill of false prophetes and those carefull instructions of notes how to discerne and avoid them to a short and sure compende against all fraude bidding the Church but holde whatsoever the Bishop of Rome did holde for that hee forsooth could not erre If our adversaries yet oppone that howsoever the Church vnder the Law did sometime fall away all in common and that albeit the Christian Church should also in like manner yet the truth of God his promises should not therefore faile but that no such thing hath befallen the Christian Church or could befall her in respect of the great measure of light and cleare dispensation by the Gospell It is many wayes both foolish and impertinentlie alleadged for first it is a plaine taking of that which is in question Next as the state of our question is whither possiblie the Church may erre communiter tota and God his promise yet abyde true to oppone that shee hath not erred is alse ridiculous as if in disputation de iure one should answer de facto If God his promise still may consist albeit shee did so erre wee have the point wee pleade for And whither shee hath erred or not they must of necessitie come with vs to trye by such rules of examination as wee only labour to reduce them to and they in an evill conscience alwayes flee onely crying against vs The TeÌ„ple of the Lord The Temple of the Lord And the Church can not erre Thirdlie this their presumption of the ones possible and easie falling away and of the others assured standing in truth grounded vpon the lesse and greater measure of light it sheweth their foolishnes in divine matters For as whatsoever measure of light dispensed is God his free benefite so is our either imbracing or abyding therein his only gift Who as hee iustlie will give over presumptuous and secure men to groape even at noone day so is hee faithfull and wil not suffer his owne to bee tempted above that they are able but will give the issue with the tentation Wee have indeed to glorifie God and even to glorie in him for the huge measure of light and gracefull dispensation by the Gospell but so farre ought men to have bene from vaine boasting thereof or carnall and secure relying thervpon as in all watchfulnes and godly care they should have remembred with all that accordingly Satan was to advaunce the mysterie of iniquitie by all effectual working with all power signes and lying wonders and in all deceaveablenes of vnrighteousnes among them that perish because they receaved not the love of the truth that they might be saved and therefore God should send them strong delusion c. for Sathan as a craftie warriour and subtill enemie reserved and framed his last cunning force and maner of working according as he did see that for deceaving was requisite and accordinglie by God his wise permission iust iudgement obtained a throne even in the temple of God And as in the dealing of God it is not to be esteemed strange that he so farre gave over the world to the efficacie of errour whereby he iustlie punished the contempt of his truth and clearlie foretold the case so is it nothing derogatorie either to his goodnes and truth of his promises made to his Church or to his power of performance as our adversaries because the Lord whom they would make a varlet to their lustes hath iustlie cast dunge vpon their faces therefore by a doting dilemma would inforce vpon vs this blasphemie as a necessarie consecâ—arie of our doctrine For that if the Church have erred it must have beene that either GOD would not or then that hee could not keepe his promise to her But it is the propertie of their king Abaddon to blaspheme the name of God his Tabernacle and them that dwell in heaven Wee both acknowledge his goodnes and praise his truth and power and confesse that by this course of dealing they are more highlie manifested then if the gates of hell and smoake of the bottomles pit had never assailed the Church Or if the weaknes of men had never appeared to the praise both of his goodnes and power For as his incomprehensible goodnes and constant truth are herein magnified that though all men be liers yet hee abydeth true and the infidelitie of men can not make his promise of none effect so did his infinite power exceedinglie extoll the selfe in this that as hee bringeth light out of darknes and maketh his light to shine in darknes as hee bringeth life out of death and preserveth the children of death so in the middest of Antichrist his vsurpation and such absolute domination in the holy Citie and Court of the Temple the visible Church as no possible meanes appeared of intertaining light yet hee not only all the while preserved two candlestickes and two olives true witnesses and Ministers of light and grace but also when spyed out by Antichrist they were cruellie murthered and in his and his sectatours estimation vtterlie vndone hee revived them in furder vigour to his and their terrour That while all the earth
extraordinarie calling wee have to worke miracles Who of any sound mynd can not but extreamlie wonder how by so manifold and childishe a cavillation men affecting the opinion of learning and holynes should so evidentlie make themselves ridiculous and bewray openlie an evill conscience For first as I have already cleared for our Churches in common they are impudent to deny our ordinarie vocation But to let this passe with them if my doctrine proove it selfe to bee the truth what place have such men as it convinced to bee â—yers to except against my vocation which justifieth it selfe sufficientlie even by that fame Doe men gather grapes of thornes or fygges of thistles And if necessitie were of miracles what greater can bee then this that The stone even reiected of the builders is yet made the head of the corner Which by the Lord his owne Testimony is marveilous in our eies and yet it is the Lod his doing If our doctrine bee truth their mouthes are stopped who directlie impugne it and if it bee false what foolishnes is it to crave a warrant of our callings as if all the miracles which ever were wrought could warrant a man to teach lyes Besides all this that miracles are alwayes requisite for iustifying an extraordinarie callinge it is falslie assumed For of Iohne Baptist whose callinge Christ his answer to the Priestes prooverh to have beene extraordinarie it is witnessed that hee wrought no miracles as neither did divers Prophets before him And whatsoever was then either vsed or requisit while that manner of dispensation had place yet now when the whole Counsell of GOD is reveiled and that manner of dispensation altered miracles in these our tymes without any more were even enough wherefore to mistrust the worker For that howsoever at the beginning of the Gospell in so strange and great alterations as were the inbringing of the Gentiles and the abrogation of the legall worshippe which was of GOD his owne appointement it was as sayeth Augustin miraculis inchoata begun with miracles yet now the Sonne of man having long agoe come in his kingdome with power and the Sinagogue beeing buried with honour the case in these last tymes varieth so farre as miracles and wonders are the badge of Antichrist who hath come with all effectuall working of Sathan in signes lying wonders and strong delusion So as whosoever now worketh miracles quanto magis miraâ—ilia confiâ—emur tanto cautius vitare debemus How much more wonderfull wee confesse them to be wee ought the more warilie to eshew them as sayeth the same Augustin And this diversitie oâ— dispensation the holy Ghost in goodly and convenient types most fitlie expresseth Chapter 4. and Chapter 15. of the Revelation In the first is put a cleare Christallin Sea with seven burning Lampes apart So to designe the pure word worship according thereto in these first tymes accompanied with the powerfull cooperation of the holy spirit but in such sort as then there was a distinct outward and visible dispensation and donation of the holy spirit by imposition of hands and kything in visible symbols of the holy spirit and divers gifts and miraculous operations In the fifteene Chapter is shewed again that the Sea is cleare as Christall and hath the ioyned operation of the holy spirit but the Sea is mingled with the fyre To shew in the last dispensation for overthrow of Antichrist a puritie of the word and worship the vertue of the spirit ioyned therewith as at first but yet so as no dispensation of the spirit should be but by and with the word as mingled therewith all outward and visible extraordinarie donation of the spirit and miraculous operations now ceassing And verelie an other manner was requisite for bringing in first the Gentiles to the faith and so casting Satan from heaven even that the Gospell should be miraculis inchoata then for overturning his fraudfully reerected throne in the church vnder pretence of the Lambe his hornes and to much different dealing for burying the Synagogue with honour then for thrusting Antichrist to the doore with shame At first the Lord had to procure credit to his Gospell as to his owne sacred will word next again he had by this Gospell so now obtaining as the partie to be detected and overthrowen thereby dare not openly denie the authoritie thereof but to convince the traitour covered vnder false pretences 25. To disproove this power of plaine and prevayling truth and to discredit the argument of our miraculous successe thereby our adversaries yet ryse against vs with two obiections The first is that if successe and wyde obtayning were a note of truth then also or more iustlie might Arrianisme and Mahometisme acclaime the title thereof as wee But these instances are sophisticallie brought against the truth and vs. For albeit wee confesse heresie to bee verie contagious and the word thereof to be fretting as a gangrene through the conveniencie it hath with the vaine humour of man who is naturallie a lyer yet when soever it is put to iust tryall by the truth then can it retaine no strength It is indeed true that truth alwayes prevayleth not for then the mysterie of iniquitie had never attayned to such height but this falleth not through the weaknes of truth but partlie through the vanity of men who falling away froÌ„ the love and due regard of truth are in God his iustice given vp to the efficacie of errour Partlie through their vniust furie reiecting and persecuting the truth vntryed wherein yet the great odds betwixt veritie and lyes is wonderfull in that even in the highest degree of prevailing error while Satan hath a throne in the verie temple of God yet even then as in Pergamus the truth still dwelleth and a number keep the name of God even where Satan his throne is and against the terrour of bloodshed Whereas on the other part truth being but admitted to plead for it selfe albeit the holders have little strength as in Philadelphia yet the adversaries are forced to come and worship at their feet But this we maintaine and hold that when ever it pleaseth the Lord to send out his light and truth for leading men to his holy mountaine and that herefie howe stronglie soever grounded is reduced to due examination thereby that then albeit it hath vsurped even the holy citie court of the tempel yet by the true measuring reed it will be clearlie found to be cast out Their argument is a deceitfull falacie by confounding of divers cases and causes of the truth admitted to plead and of the same againe after in God his iustice hid or by mens crueltie and vniust violence debarred from all defence And this is evident in both the alleadged instances For Arianisme albeit having for it great but vnsanctified both learning and eloquence yet was ever ashamed before the truth till by the crueltie and violence of Easterne Emperours in Asia and
were not refelled by cleare Scripture yet were fitter to bee an addition to Rables or to make vp the last booke of Amades de Gaule then to bee reputed profound pointes of Christian wisedome 32. Thus have I shortlie answered the maine obiections of our adversaries which as an vnresistable ordinance they proudlie plant against our callinges and Church and finding nowe their batterie directed speciallie against that quarter wherein our Lord and Captaine hath assigned mee a station in his service for that by reason of our weak fortification and their great inwarde intelligence they conceave great hope of an easie surpryse on that part I have as becommeth albeit a weake yet a faithfull souldier hasted to the breach with such armes as came to hand That if perhappes the courage of our weake once hath beene in any degree dismayed with the terrour of this recent alarme yet finding the ennemie effronted their heartes may bee thereupon so farre stayed as to stande and perceave that all this supercilious shewe of a fierce assault is but a vaine and weakly backed bravado which to offer vs with a newe and high morgue our adversaries have newlie bene animated by their late supplement of fresh◠forces from beyond sea who their cuilliers what disposition they are of is evident by this that they are puffed vp and made more insolent with that which iustlie hath dumped in a deep sorrow all true hearts of both the Ilands and the daylie surmises from them of yet moe doolfull events with the cursed hope whereof they can not dissemble but they are tickled albeit all praise to God yet found false we hope in the Lord shall stil prove yet they clearlie shewe either what plottes they are on or with what plotters they have intelligence or what practises perniciously performed would chiefly chear their poisonable minds And now howsoever I be in a weake guerison not the strongest of all yet so stronge is the truth and that Lord in whose strength and whose cause I plead as I hope that even heereby the deceit and imbecillitie of these their obiections are so clearelie discovered that the judicious and free hearted Reader shall remayne satisfied and even our simple once hearts strengthened against our adversaries high boasting To men of corrupt minds nothing is enough Neither is our labour for any either ecclesiasticke or as they terme them lay persons of that Antichristian body which have receaved the beast his character and are not reclaimable who deceaving and being deceaved waxe worse worse and compassing sea and earth and with lying and murthering to vphold their tottring kingdome madlie mixing all doe evidentlie bewray what spirit they are of but they shall prevaile no longer for their madnes shall be manifest vnto all men As for such whether ecclesiastike or lay persons among them who are in simplicitie of heart and blind zeale miscaried having but the name or number but not the character of the beast we both pittie them and pray for them that the Lord would open their eyes and put in their hearts to come out of Babylon least they be partakers of her iudgements for her plagues shall come in one day even the Lord will cut of all lying lippes and the toung that speaketh proud things TO A RECVSANT FOR CLEARING AND MAINTAINING SOME POINTS IN THE PRECEEDING TREATISE challenged by a Roman Elymas Bar-Iesus-it RECOVERING some dayes since a copy of my Treatise in defence of our callings which had fallen in your handes some moneths agoe I perceaved that it had passed the examination and censure of some one of your ghostlie Fathers if I misdeeme not even the same whose pamphlet against our callings stirred me to the defence of them yet so as amids divers dumbe draughts of a silent Aristarchus there is but one onely open challenge through all Which while he is perhaps a breeding of a bigger birth his weak heart could not keep til with the rest it should be timely borne thinking belike he had theirin so cleare an advantage over me as vpon that place he might be bold to put out some speach thus to intertaine his applauders in hope that hee had also much to say against the rest But if this his glorying Goliath so confidently stepping out single shal be easilie foiled it may well be presumed that with noe great a doe the rest of his dumbe Host may be made both to flee and fall Over a place in my Treatise he setteth this signe ✚ and therewithal this saying agree this and the other places that is marked with this signe My wordes first signed by him are these And the Lord his wyse providence for preserving thus his church in the mids of Antichristian vsurpation while hee appeared to possesse all was wonderfull in that even in time of greatest corruption yet asure accesse and free way was still reserved through Citie and Court to the Temple the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance remaining and the doctrine of the Trinitie being keeped sound Sect. 7. The places thereafter signed with the same signe and in the challenger his conceat contradicting this are two and these both Sect. 10. the first in these wordes Yea wee are so farre from this disorder do so farre both reverence and maintain ordinarie vocation that in a constitute Church holding the foundation albeit otherwayes divers things therein not only for maners but also for maner of worshippe did require reformation if any man of howe great gifts soever yet without ordinarie calling should intrude himselfe to be a Pastour we would no otherwayes account of him then of a seditious and turbulent Spirit who either fanatikly presuming of graces would vainlie despyse order or for some infirmities and defects would arrogantly and vncharitably breake the vnitie of the Church Now that I may the more clearly recōcile any apparant repugnācy betwixt these places I wil first set down as I can take it the challenger his conceaved cōtradictiō thus VVho in a constitute Church holding the foundatiō c. would intrude himselfe without ordinary calling to be a Pastour is to be accounted a seditious turbulent despyser of ordre and an arrogant and vncharitable renter of Church vnitie But the Christian Church since her first constitution alwayes even in time of greatest corruption hath holden the foundation Therfore who at any time without ordinary vocation intruded himselfe to be a Pastour therein he was but a sedicious and turbulent despyser of order and an arrogant and vncharitable renter of Church vnitie I wil not here dallie vpon these words intrude himselfe which in no case can ever be lawfull and may never bee iustly said of any who is truely albeit extraordinarlie sent out by God I come to the argument The proposition of the sillogisme is mine owne I can not disadvow it The assumption that we iangle not about the state of our question must be cleared from equivocation for no question but the true Church elected according
sound doctrine of the Trinitie in this consideration I say how can his challenge of contradiction in my wordes bee excused of either childish triffling or shameles cavillation or both Now albeit what I have already said aboundantlie serveth for reconciliation of the other place signed also by my censurer yet let vs see what is the contradiction hee would inferre thereupon My wordes and continuallie following the former are these But if corruption hath so farre prevailed that the faithfull City hath become an harlot and all her silver be turned in drosse if her husbandmen have become murtherers and her builders have become destroyers if from the Prophet even to the Priest everie one followeth after lyes if there be a conspiracie of her Prophets in the mids of her like a roaring Lyon ravening the pray if her watchmen be all blind and know nothing if they be all dumb doggs and can not barke if they lye and sleepe and love to sleepe if her Pastours know nothing nor vnderstand and looke whollie to their owne wayes if night bee to them for a vision and darknes for a divination in such a case c. Now to commit my selfe with my selfe he would appearantly reason thus Extraordinary vocation by my owne position hath only place in such a corrupt state and case of a Church as that the faithfull City hath become a harlot and all her sylver is turned in drosse her husbaÌ„dmen are become murtherers etc. But the case of the Christian Church even in tyme of greatest corruption was never such Therefore by myne owne position no place was in her at any tyme for extraordinarie calling And so I am contradictour to my selfe The Proposition is mine owne The Assumption of the visible Church is false And hee seeketh to succour it from my Position thus Of a Church keeping the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance and sound doctrine of the Trinitie no such case as I have put can be truely affirmed But by mine owne position the Church even in tyme of greatest corruption hath keeped the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance and sound doctrine of the Trinitie Therefore of the Church at no tyme such a case could bee truely affirmed And consequently no tyme ever for extraordinarie calling VVhich by mine owne Position hath only place in such a case The aequivocation of the Proposition I cleared in my answere to his first conceaved contradiction Now in the sense ther shewed to be mine a church holding only these points albeit shee erre in yea and overthrow most part of all other foundamentall grounds and consequently even these same which she seemeth to hold also that notwithstanding the holding barely of these may vindicat her from the blame of my proponed case I even muse if my challenger will affirme it And that taking hold perhaps on the peremptorie and precise strictnes of the wordes he would thus reason that where but even so much is holdeÌ„ as I have yeelded even in the sense I have called myne there all cannot bee turned in drosse neither can Pastours there be said to know nor vnderstand nothing c. and consequentlie that no such case as I have put hath ever be fallen I will hardlie be induced to beleeve or that a man of any sense or shamefastnes will bewray himselfe to be so ridiculous a jangler Wherein yet he should not contend with me but with the Lord whose the wordes are and not mine and who chargeth therewith a Church holding more of the foundation then ever we will grant to the Church of Rome who in the abhominations she doth commit hath iustified the Church of Iuda of whom the Lord affirmed my proponed case and which therefore more iustlie a great deale might have alledged against the precise strictnes of the Lord his accusatioÌ„ They held the Sacrament of circumcision the name of the God of Israell the outwarde profession of his Covenant and worshippe and the publike practise thereof in dayly sacrifices oblations And had they place herefore to plead that all their silver was not turned in drosse The Lord in challenging our defections wheÌ„ the substantial grouÌ„ds are most parte subverted hee pleadeth a totall apostasie His owne Bellarmine telling howe iudiciouslie to reade and make right vse of the sayings of the Fathers might have taught your man that in Homilies to the people where in vehement contestations speaches are of purpose framed rhetorically and hyperbolically to force of perswasion for sturring motion and for agreaging and amplification they are then to be wyselie distinguished from a scholastike and more presse and proper maner in laying down foundamental points and that they are not to be alike or indifferentlie drawn for stablishing or prooving heads of faith in the praecise strictnes and proprietie of wordes for one and the same man will have a much different maner of stile in homilizing and in dogmatizing Not that therefore the Fathers and much lesse the Lord who though all men were lyers yet abydeth true did say 〈◊〉 then truth But that from a figurative rhetoricall hyperbolike truth to conclude a truth in praecise strictnes of proper signification it is either foolishe ignorance or perverse tergivâ—rsation And to shorten all disput herein I would aske your ghostly Father so beeing that all wherewith we do charge the Church of Rome wherupon they with vs and we with them have nowe so many yeares contested and doe contest stil were verified against her if in that case she could bee denyed to be the very Synagogue of Satan and that the case proponed by me might not be as iustlie said of her as hee dare not deny but it was obiected to Iuda except hee would belye the almightie Nowe whither wee charge her rightly or not in our disput here it were impertinent and a slyding from the cause in hand either for him to pleade the one or me to proove the other the question here betwixt vs standing so as I having laid this ground that in a condition of a corrupted Church and such as I proponed extraordinarie vocation may have place and againe pleading that the condition of the Church in common at the beginning of our reformation was such whither if by yeelding her still and even then the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance and sound Doctrine of the Trinitie I have admitted ought which contradicteth mine own positions which to evince against 〈◊〉 I thinke it must cost your Confessour some more paines then but in passing by only to point at it This his proposition beeing false hee concludeth nothing and my places doe yet well consist In an other place 〈…〉 on my margent this word REMARK without any 〈◊〉 sigâ—â—fication for what defect he would make me th◠〈…〉 thinking belike the absurditie of my 〈…〉 exposed to the perception of any as a gene 〈…〉 sufficient to make the Reader advert it My wâ—â—â—es are these Sect. 8. And seeing that outward ordination and all 〈◊〉 action of the Ministers thereof serveth
generall and indefinit whereby I conclude it is the Proposition thereof the restrict case of my speciall and definit position is that I affirmed not our callings to have flowed from the Bishop of Rome absolutly but in a sort The restrict case of my generall and indefinit position is that I affirmed not lawfull ordination might be taken of a Wolfe or Thiefe absolutly but from such a Wolfe Thiefe as in my Proposition is set downe at length and in my treatise more amply Now who either doth confound my positions or draweth them froÌ„ my restrict cases to absolut assertions he wrongeth me therein greatly And to cleare this In the restrict case of my speciall and definit position that I affirmed our callings to have flowed froÌ„ the Bishop of Rome in a sort it hath two considerations to be wel adverted First that the Bishop of Rome was not the proper particular personal minister of their ordination at least in common howsoever in a sort or mediatly it did flow from him Secondly that even this in a sort or mediatly must not be so vnderstood as if the particular proper and personall ordainers had done it but as the Bishop of Rome his deputies or procurators but as having also themselves properly place power of ordination Wherein by your adversaries doctrine the Bishop of Rome might well have the first place and highest power but not the only place or onely power For giving him this that he were not only primae sedis Episcopus in which degree the Fathers would faine have stayed his vsurpation and yet by canons of counsels could not but which was then interdicted that he were also primus Episcopus yet was hee never sole Bishop And though hee got at length by prevailing iniquity cheefe place power of ordination yet never only place For if hee onely were properly to bee held a Bishop and if ordination were only proper to him then could not he him selfe be any Bishop at all For none can be a Bishop without lawfull ordination and none can or may ordaine him selfe Neither can any other ordaine him by any power flowing from his predecessour quia mortâ—â— mandatore expirat mandatum And as Grogorie Bishop of Rome doth inferre if he were sole Bishop then vniversa Ecclesia corruit vbi ille vniversus cadit he falling the vniversal church should faile also And how hardly the said Grogory did esteeme of any such vsurpation these words doe shew Triste valde est patieÌ„ter ferre vt omnibus despectis frater coepiscopus noster solus nominetur Episcopus It is a heavy and hard matter to beare that our brother and fellow Bishop should be called onely Bishop and he giveth the reason in another place Quia si vnus Patriarcha vniversalis dicitur Patriarcharum nomen caeteris derogatur for if one be called vniversal Patriarch the name of Patriarch is taken from the rest so then is ordination of all Church-men flowing in a sort froÌ„ the Pope to be vnderstood not that either hee was the personall minister of all or that hee had sole power of ordination but because he was acknowledged first in that power and for that in the outward order policy and forme of church governement al did acknowledge their subiection to him Now for that ordination is graunted to flow from him in this sort therefore vpon the conviction of him to be a Wolfe Thiefe shal al ordination in the church particularly properly and personallie ministred by whatsoever other Bishops be vnlawfull Or shal he convinced to be a Thiefe and Traitour necessarily involve al other pastours of the church in the same guiltines with him because their ordinatioÌ„ hath in a sort flowed from him This were indeed to admit that which even a Bishop of Rome counted an execrable absurdity quod vniversa Ecclesia corruit vbi ille vniversus cadit your man might have learned from his owne Bellarmin by force of truth driven thereto at last that though the Pope should become an heretike yet should not the church therefore fail or fall from truth We wil never yeeld him this that at any time in the church vniversally all and singularly each pastour or ordainers of pastours were Wolves and Thieves albeit wee affirme that he from whom al ordinatioÌ„ in a sort did flow was long agoe a Wolfe and Thiefe Now then I having in the special and definit position of our callings flowing from the Bishop of Rome put this restrict case that they flowed from him in a sort hee should greatly wrong me sophistically also reason who would make this all one thing as if I had granted them to have flowed from him particularly as the proper personal minister thereof or from the Wolvish Thievish condition of him froÌ„ whom they but flowed in a sort would conclude of all and everie particular proper and personal ordainers or if hee should reason from ordinatioÌ„ as it floweth in a sort to ordination properly and personally proceeding My remarker might indeed have made me remarkeably forgetfull of my selfe truth both if in my answere to their first obiection sect 5. not admitting them therfore any iust claime in the title of the true church for that we forsooth could have no orditnary vocation but with amongst theÌ„ who howsoever they were in the church even bore sway and obtained in tota communiter yet were but a part in the church and no true part of it in that alwayes within the church also were true both pastours and professours if now I say I should againe confesse that all our pastours ordination had flowed properly and personally from the detestable head of all that mischiefe Which were not onely a manifest lie but an absurde impossibilitie also If any heere would oppone that this my distinction is vaine and that it freeth vs nothing more to have had our ordination but in a sort from the Bishop of Rome and properlie and personally from others then if we graunted the having it of him even particularly properly personally because all others particular and personal ordainers whatsoever were not onely in outward order of Church governement subiect to the Pope of Rome but also agreed all in one and the same faith and doctrine with him approving both his opinion and power and moreover had all of them or their ordainers or the ordainers of their ordainers c. their ordination even properly and personally of the Bishop of Rome In which respects neither could the personall ordainers bee free of any imputation laid by vs against the Bishop of Rome neither yee ordination from them be any better to the ordained by them then if it had properly and personally proceeded from him as the particular Minister therof I answer that in this allegation is a manifold sophistication First as I have already shewed from common subiection in the obtaining state of Church policie to conclude Vnitie in opinion and all points of faith and
and printe that if we could but once cleare the lawfulnes of our callings they would without more adoe or furder disputation about heads of doctrine give vs their handes For our vocation I have said somewhat against their obiections in my Treatise of defence and againe in my epistle to a recusant I have replyed to their censuring notes If I have cleared the point why remember they not their covenant If I have not yet why in place of refelling my argumentes and strengthening their owne point am I deceitfully drawen away from the question in hand by newe and impertinent demands of a different matter and yet if in this their shameles shifting there were in them any one spunke of sinceritie I could even gladly bee drawen to follow them for that I confesse it is a much more sure way from truth of doctrine to establish lawefulnes of vocation then vpon the slipperie ground of outward ordinary calling to build a warrant of doctrine But consider I pray you first the ingenuitie of the demaunder in the substance of his demaūds and next his aequitablenes in his prescribed rules wee are desired in summe to evince that the Church of Rome hath made apostasie from the truth and therewith to cleare that our doctrine is the veritie of God But shameles men what have we bene doing these more then a hundreth yeares agoe but filling the world with volumes whereby wee have so plainly discovered their abhominations and verified the truth of our Doctrine as wearied with contesting therabout or rather vexed with their cleare convincing power of light they were faine to cast vp all either disputation come in end as to their last refuge to quarrell our vocation the lawfulnes whereof when thervpō we have stablished against al their cavillations they leape now back of new again intend accusation against our doctrine what is this else but as children in their sporting childishly practise and more childishly speak to play titbore tatbore with vs Now as he hath forgotten all shame in so childish shifting the question so by his limitations laid down to vs I know not by what law how to answer him in both the points demanded he exponeth plainly to the perception of any sensible Reader what sound mind he hath what aequitablenes is in his dealing with vs. First for evincing the apostasie of the church of Rome we must take this law of the demander that in so farre as the Church of Rome was once the true Church of Christ we must therefore condescend what yeare of God shee made first defection and by whom accordingly shee was condemned of Haeresie Reasonable men indeed And yet their companions in spirit pretended in al 's bad a cause some more equitie VVe have a law said they by this law he ought to die Our adversaries neither having nor so much as pretending any stable law against vs and therefore in an evill conscience shunning all right lawes of examination they wil in no small modestie forsooth set downe rules of their owne braine whereby they will have both them selves and vs tryed But heerein first I can not but greatly muze whither foolishlie or fraudfullie the demander hath fallen vpon so either an improper or so presumptuous a maner of speach as indefinitlie and absolutlie to call the Church of Rome the true Church of Christ. that consequently all other churches may either bee secluded from this title or bee compelled to come in vnder the name of the church of Rome Neither doe I so much muze hereon for any doubt I have of the Demaunder his owne meaning for I know how blasphemouslie bold they are if not to mende the magnificat yet to carve careleslie at the Creed by adding Romanam to Sactam Ecclesiam Catholicam thus forcing all if not to receave the character yet at least the name or number of the beast but that he proponeth this as a point graūted by vs. I admire his impudencie for of the church of Rome before shee became a harlot we confesse that shee was a true church of Christ or one of his true churches or a true part of that his true church which is but one but to intitle any particular Church absolutly and indefinitly with the name of the true Church of Christ it is an insolent speach and not according to the stile of holy scripture which addeth alwayes some distinguishing designation as the Church which is at Rome in Iudea in Corinth of Galatia of Ephesus Smirna Pergamus c. As for the church of Rome at length becumming not only a harlot but also the mother of whoordomes in all the earth in which respect only it was that all commonlie therein did take her name wee deny her so to bee either the true Church of Christ or anie true part thereof but the Synagogue of Sathan and an abhominable Whoore borne vp and advanced by a blasphemous and bloody beast howsoever all the while vnder and within his vsurpation even where Satan his throne was the true Church of God long dwelt shruded and suffered to live vnder the name and number of the beast yet free alwayes from his character but least I seeme over narrowlie to sift syllables I passe this there whither ignorant or arrogant maner of speaking For prooving the church of Rome to have made apostasie from truth we must by our adversaries iniunctions cōdescend vpon the yere of God wherein the first made defection and who they were that therevpon even then convinced her of haeresie and shall this then serve to exime her or any other church from the blot of defection or haeresie in all time thereafter and make all whatsoever shee holdeth to be vndoubted truth if the first houre and firste degrees of her apostasie have escaped a publike note or howsoever noted if yet shee hath not bene publikely condemned of haeresie or howsoever both noted and condemned yet if no publike record thereof be extant to future ages shall any long space of time iustifie waxing and obtaining errour or is there any such prescription against truth but that jure postlimin◠at least it may alwayes pleade iustly for reposition I leave here to the vpright consideration of any indifferent minde what true confidence these men can have of their owne cause who prescribe such limitations and being challenged of sacrilegious guiltines will offer themselves no otherwayes to tryall then as if a cunning and long covered Thiefe tatched with innumerable fangges and having all his houses stuffed with stolen wares yet should partly protest that in so farre as he had bene once honest and of all men accounted so hee ought therefore to be reputed so still notwithstanding of any thing found by him except it may bee cleared what houre of his lyfe he did first begin to steale in what place and from what persones and therewithall who had even then convinced and condemned him for a Thiefe Or as if a subtile and long dissembling harlot
the godly care which against the feritie of beastly persecuters was had of their funeralles and collecting of their dissipated relicts to how not only a superstitious dottage but even to how detestale an Idolatrie tyme by Sathan his subtilitie made it to degener in the worship not only of creatures but even of carions miserable experience hath proved The Fathers in a preposterous zeale and piece of carnall wisdome seeking to abrogate all memorie of Heathenisme and finding how difficill a thing it was to reduce superstitious people from a long and plausible custome of evills they turned all the solemne rites and festivities of tymes and places dedicated and practized in the worship of Heathen Idolls to the celebration of the memorie and honour of saints Thus as blind Steuchus foolishly glorieth of Satan his subtil successe in the mysterie of iniquitie Omnia Prophane Sacra effect◠〈◊〉 ritus profani corporunt esse â—itus sacri c. and by time through Satan his sleight working by the superstitious humours of vaine men what was gained hereby but that with interchange of Idolls the Idolatrie abode no lesse abhominable then before The execrable erecting and adoratioÌ„ of Images against plaine scripture expresse iudgement of the Fathers and cleare Canons of orthodox Counsells of what time it was the terrible Tragedies stirred vp thereabout and the proud and respectles renting of the Church of Christ have left vs too lamentable recordes If all the Fathers who lived even many hundreths of yeares after Christ were presentlie reduced to life did heare what a stirre is made in the world nowe about traÌ„ssubstantiation would they not all start at once astonied at so strange a sound and even bee greatly amazed what monstruous meaning vnder so prodigious a word could be implyed What would these holy Fathers who if in any other have most plainly left their minde in that point think of the doctrine which now the church of Rome holdeth of the sacred Supper When even the author of the glosse on the Decretal albeit him self plunged in a hudge measure of prevayling darknes yet did so farre skunner at the porteÌ„tous wordes prescribed by Pope Nicolam to Berengarius who as they have given out of him whither falslie or that fleeing one extremitie hee did fall perhaps too farre to the other did think too slenderly and speak to warshly of that sacrament that hee exclaimeth no small perill to be in them of breeding a worse haeresie then was that of Berengarius Who is so childish as to be ignorant how lately and how audaciously in an advowed contempt of the Lord his institution and of all ancient and pure practise of the primitive church the sacred supper was mutilated and the people proudly profanely prohibited all vse of the commanded cuppe Now in these two points wherby the Apostle designeth the devilish doctours of later times who knoweth not what libertie both is left to christians in the written word and was also long practised in the primitive Church and how that voluntarie abstinence in both kindes first to hyperbolically praised next too superstitiously admired albeit no way necessarily required yet brought men and woemen by time to delite too much in wil-worshippe and vainly to become votaries of more then either the Lord required at their handes or they were able to performe And Satan thus in end tooke advantage by his hypocriticall doctours to the overthrow of all christian libertie to lay on importable burdens on the consciences of men Single lyfe though by some Fathers too full of their owne sense it was over farre extolled even with the contumelious reproaching of that holy bande which the Lord him selfe first instituted that even before sinne came in the world which by his preseÌ„ce in the flesh he both countenanced graced and which by his Apostle he calleth honorable in al persons yet was it long ere SataÌ„ durst be so impudent as vnder any hypocriticall pretence of holynes by the vicar of his throne to open so plainly his Dragon his mouth as to come to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Which vsurpation how late it was the miserable vexation of manie churches of these in this our Iland in speciall for constant withstanding and at last this yoake of bondage not willingly receaved but violeÌ„tly imposed can wel enough verifie Now withall how cunninglie and by what degrees for advancing strengthening and maintaining of all these errors the vicar of Satan his throne vnder pretence of the Lamb his hornes ascended as Gregory speaketh culâ—â—â— singularitatis it hath bene a thousand tymes more then manifestly shewed And yet in a silly shift God wot our adversarie summoneth vs and that foresooth with certification to shew theÌ„ how tanquaÌ„ vomere tusco Erutusille Tages repente doctus in ipso nascendi articulo so the church of Rome hath in one instaÌ„t made defection and even in that point hath bene not only pointed at but also painted out as haereticall But vainly impertinently which once to think were execrable impiety had Antichrist his arysing and worke of iniquity beene of the holy Ghost named a mystery wherein Sathan in all deceaveablenes of vnrighteousnes should bring on such a common apostasie as whereby his vicar his throne should be erected even in the Church and who in his owne tyme should be discovered if the first degrees thereof had beene not onely exposed to common perception but noted also neither this only but also publikelie condemned of haeresie And what will you doe then with these men who will admit no other rules of disputation and examination but which are plainly repugnant to all the clearly foretold and fallen out course of GOD his wyse dispensation in the case of his Church and of her condition accordingly Now how aequitable our adversaries are in their owne case that they will foresooth he content to be tryed by a rule of their owne appointing so reasonable they shew themselves towardes vs in admitting vs to the defence of our doctrine but so as wee must take also from them the law of examination Namely that they will accept no defence of vs except we designe the particular persons who from age to age have holden the same doctrine which we professe and that in all the substantiall points thereof and whose writings in all points of religion wee will advow and byde at And is it so indeed that we have not a more certain rule of truth then what from age to age men may be cleared to have holden Or rather are not all ages and all men in all ages and all and whatsoever opinions of whatsoever men in any age to bee reduced to examination by that stable truth and everlasting Gospell which Christ and his Apostles first preached and thereafter by the will of God as sayeth Ireneus did put in writ to remain for ever the constant ground and rule of our faith Shall this invariable and