all are as much afraid of these questions as a dog of the whip I could never yet meet with one of you which durst vndertake to maintaine the negative part For you are as wise as Serpents in your generation you know by wofull experience what hard and base silly shifts Bellarmine Suarez and others of your most learned Iesuits have beene driven to seeke while they labour in writing to answer vs in these questions and how miserably they are confounded contradicting one another and every one himselfe in many things And this is the cause why you cannot endure to deale with vs in these killing points of controversie wherein you are sure to be overthrowne But if these please you not doe you name any other questions and you shall finde mee ready and willing to dispute with you without further delay Mr. Fisher. I am content But that we may have some ground to build on First I will propound some questions to you in writing to which I require your answer in writing also that there may bee no mistaking or misreporting hereafter of that which passeth between vs. Mr. Walker If you will set downe any question in writing and write downe also your arguments I will also write my answers to them but all other kinde of questioning I refuse as a meanes tending to prolong the time and keepe us off from strict disputation I remember that when I was with you foure yeeres agoe you did trifle away a whole afternoone by ambiguous questions and could not be drawne at all to disputation Mr. Fisher. Wee cannot dispute without some ground laid downe and agreed upon I will therefore first here propound in writing this question then he wrote downe as followeth God the Father sent his Sonne our Saviour to teach all points of faith necessarie to salvation bidding his Apostles heare him Mr. Walker This is no point of controversie betweene you and us but if you make it questionable I answer affirmatively granting the proposition to bee true doe you prove the contrarie if you can * Then the Iesuit taking the paper wrote a second proposition viz. Mr. Fisher. Our Lord said to his Apostles As my Father sent mee so send I you hee that heareth you heareth mee goe teach all Nations baptizing them c. and teaching them to observe all things which I have commanded you behold I am with you all daies untill the end of the world Mr. Walker To this Master Walker answered when hee read it That he desired an argument not a new proposition and urged him either to dispute upon the former question or else to propound some point of controversie for hee would not bee deluded nor spend any more time in trifling and writing downe propositions not controverted Mr. Fisher. If this proposition be not controverted doe you grant it vnder your hand and I will upon your owns confession ground a controversie and an argument which shall hold you fast Mr. Walker Before you can make an argument you must agree with mee upon some point of controversie let us therefore know what I shall defend and what point you will dispute against Mr. Fisher. I come instantly to the point if you will grant the last proposition to bee true under your hand this being done he takes the paper and writes the third proposition This commission of our Sauiour to his Apostles was not onely to their persons and for their lives but to those which should by them bee sent and should lawfully succeed them in all ages yeeres moneths and daies untill the end of the world Mr. Walker Master Walker seeing this refused to answer to any more questions or propositions in word or writing except it were a proposition disputable and when the Iesuit said that by degrees hee meant thus to bring him on to a maine point of controversie upon which hee would dispute Indeed saith hee you have so promised and deceived mee now three times I will no longer bee held in suspence and if you can no way come to disputation but by such propositions I will trie whether I can by the same meanes draw you to some head of controversie Then taking a paper he wrote downe this proposition They who teach hold and maintaine doctrines contrarie and repugnant to the Scriptures even the word of God taught by Christ and his Prophets and Apostles in the old and new Testament are not the true successors of Christ and his Apostles Mr. Fisher. This assertion the Iesuit granted but would not write downe any thing and still urged Master Walker to grant his third proposition Mr. Walker Stay saith Master Walker I must first have you to answer a second proposition before I answer your third then hee wrote downe a second to this effect The Church Teachers and Pastors who doe teach no other doctrine as necessarie to salvation but that and onely that which is taught in the Scriptures by Christ and his Apostles and Prophets are undoubtedly the true Church of Christ and the true successors of Christ and his Apostles Mr. Fisher. To this the Iesuit seemed unwilling to answer till at length being much urged hee for very shame yeelded to grant the proposition by saying I doe not denie it Mr. Walker Whereupon Master Walker spake thus Now Master Fisher you have granted me two maine grounds upon which I will dispute and upon the first I will proue That the Church of Rome and her Pope and Priests are not the true Church nor true successors of Christ and his Apostles And upon the other I will prove That the Church of England and her Protestant Pastors are the true Church and successors of Christ and his Apostles Mr. Fisher. But stay saith Fisher let me first have your answer to my third proposition and then wee will come to disputation immediatly Mr. Walker If I doe answer you will not dispute because there is no matter of controversie in your proposition Neverthelesse that you may have no excuse nor colour of delay I grant your assertion thus vnderstood viz. That to all those who are sent by the Apostles and in calling and doctrine lawfully succeed them in all ages yeeres and daies untill the end of the world Christ gave commission to teach people of every Nation and to baptize them and promised to bee with them But if you meane by the last clause cunningly to imply that there are in all ages yeeres moneths and daies a continued succession of Bishops and Pastors in one and the same visible Chaire and Sea sent by the Apostles and lawfully succeeding them as in place so in all points of doctrine I denie your proposition and if you please let this be the question betweene us and let it be your part to prove it against me Mr. Fisher. This answer Master Fisher desired him to write downe which hee promised upon condition Fisher would first write downe his answers to the two propositions by him propounded And after much adoe the Iesuit takes
moode or figure It runnes word for word thus That Church which beginning with Christ and his Apostles hath visibly professed in all ages that faith which Christ and his Apostles taught without change in any point necessarie to salvation is that Church whose judgement is to bee followed and no private man must oppose his judgement against it There must bee one such Church in all ages But no such Protestants can be shewed This syllogisme no doubt will appeare as it is in forme very absurd to all the judicious who shall heare of it or reade it And yet the author thereof if we consider either the time when or the manner how he propounded it was therein farre more absurd and ridiculous For hee delivered it for an argument of such force and strength that it was not to be answered but at leasure and upon much studie and meditation Yea hee wrote it downe after that every point and tittle therein which requires any answer had beene by the present adversarie Master Walker there at that time abundantly answered to the full satisfaction of the hearers as they confessed For after Master Walker had fairely offered and earnestly urged that all controversies of religion which were betweene them might be tried first by the originall Scriptures secondly by the sincere writings of the ancient Fathers thirdly by disputation in strict syllogismes and all these were refused and rejected by the Iesuit as is before related They who were present wondering at him and some of them asking him whether he had any ground of his faith and religion besides his owne sense and will Mr. Fisher. He answered that he would bee judged by the Church For said hee when the Church hath judged no private man must oppose his judgement And this I made a Protestant Preacher confesse heretofore in a conference and that under his owne hand Mr. Walker Master Walker answered that the Church of God never judgeth as it is a true Church but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures and as it is said of a just Iudge in a Common-wealth that hee is Lex loquens so it is said of every true and faithfull Church that it is Scriptura loquens The speaking Scripture Now against this judgement of the Church no private man must oppose his judgement that is his owne private opinion for all singular opinions of private men are vaine errors if they were true they could not bee singular seeing all truths necessarie to salvation taught in the Scriptures are common to all the faithfull Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named did grant nothing but the truth from which you can picke no advantage to helpe you for you when you appeale to the judgement of the Church doe in many things differ from this truth First by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon your owne mother and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion is as if a Bastard should seeke to be judged by the whore his mother whether hee be lawfully begotten which he knowes shee will affirme and judge him to bee for her owne credit Secondly you rest on her judgement in the maine principles of Religion which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate being growne up to yeeres of discretion and well read in the Scriptures needeth the judgement of any other judge besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart Thirdly when you speake of the judgement of the Church you understand such a judging power and authoritie as doth by determining points of faith and manners make them true and lawfull whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coine new Scriptures or to make articles of faith but onely the gift of revealing propounding and expounding of the word of God and the articles of Religion which Christ hath commended to the faithfull Fourthly you require in the true Church and attribute to your Church of Rome such properties as cannot bee found in any particular Church on earth viz. that it hath continued in the same place state and condition visibly and sensibly professing from the daies of Christ and his Apostles the same faith in all points necessarie to salvation whereas by consent of all stories and by manifest experience it is plaine that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Romane Christians as justification by faith without workes and by imputation of Christs righteousnesse Rom. 3. 4. 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church And others which the Apostle did call Doctrines of Devils as forbidding to marrie and abstinence from meats c. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessarie to bee beleeved and obeyed for salvation by some persons Mr. Fisher. I doe hold that the Church is the chiefe judge of all controversies in the matters of Religion and that all private persons must submit to it and not seeke to the Scriptures First because the Scriptures are translated out of the originall tongues before that private men can reade or understand them and the translations are not to be beleeved nor received but by the authoritie and approbation of the Church Secondly the Church gives such authoritie to the Scriptures that without it we are not bound to beleeve them nor receive them for Gods word according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas I would not beleeve the Gospell unlesse I were thereunto moved by the authoritie of the Church Mr. Walker And I answer that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other particular Church for all other particular Churches have as much authoritie in this kinde yea more because shee is more impure and corrupt than any of them and hath least abilitie or sinceritie to judge of the truth And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome of which hee was no member but rather the Church of Millaine in which he was converted Secondly I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited speakes by way of supposition and not by way of asseveration as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place Thirdly it is true that over-weake Christians who are babes in Christ the Church in which they live and are baptized hath such authoritie as you speake of namely to translate the Scriptures and to commend them for the word of God and for truth and they are bound to give credit to it therein and not to oppose their owne fancies and conceits But when Christians are growne up in grace and knowledge and have felt by their owne experience the effects and worke of the Spirit in their soules wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures and when not onely by the inward testimonie of the Spirit testifying that they are the truth
of truth Who at length for my humilitie and the sinceritie of my heart did grant my request and did draw me unto the Catholike Church where I found the truth and a sure ground to rest upon from which I purpose never to be moved but will hold me to it for ever Mr. Burton Mr. Burton grieved to heare the Iesuit boasting after such a Pharisaicall manner could not refraine but taxed him of pride and hypocrisie for ascribing his calling and his knowledge of the truth and of true religion as he termed it to the merit of his owne humilitie sinceritie and his praiers which he made before his conversion while he remained in ignorance Mr. Walker Mr. Walker also taking hold of his speech desired to ground a disputation upon his words and offered to prove that the Iesuit did erre most damnably and heretically in the first grounds of his faith and religion in that he builded his first calling upon the merit of his owne vertues and of his works which he performed before his calling in the state of ignorance and blindnesse He also taxed him of manifest absurditie and contradiction in his speech in that he first so farre vilified and condemned the Protestant state and counted it so sinfull and damnable that he asked forgivenesse of God for his once being a Protestant and yet immediatly did attribute his conversion and calling into the Catholike Church unto the merit of works which in that state he performed Moreover he charged him with extreame folly and madnesse for abandoning and forsaking that Church state wherein by his owne confession he did performe works meritorious and betaking himselfe to the service and slaverie of the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon the reward and just wages of whose servants and followers is shewed in Gods word Revel 19. to be the wrath of God and eternall vengeance in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for evermore For answer to these obiections the Iesuit complained that it was uneqvall for two to set against one both at once And Master Burton desiring to bee excused for that he could not but out of his zeale reprove his palpable boasting of his owne merits promised to be silent hereafter if he would fall to disputation with Master Walker Then the Iesuit proceeded and spake to this effect Mr. Fisher. The Church of Rome of which I am a member is the onely true Catholike Church for it holdeth the same truth which Christ and his Apostles commended to it and hath not altered nor erred in any maine point but holds the same still which all true Catholike and Orthodox Fathers and Doctors did teach as here is manifestly shewed and proved in this booke by Gualtherius meaning Gualtherius his Chronographica sacra which there hee had brought and laid before him on the table who doth produce plaine testimonies of the Fathers in all ages from the time of Christ confirming the maine points of the Roman Catholike religion wherein Protestants dissent from Catholikes I doe challenge you to shew the like evidences for the Religion and doctrine which your Church doth hold which because you cannot doe it is manifest that you have not the truth neither are a true Church Mr. Walker Well Master Fisher if this be the best ground which you have to build vpon wee shall easily answer you and make it appeare that you are not the man which flying fame reports you to be and that you build on a sandie foundation I did expect some grounds and arguments gathered out of the sacred Scriptures and hewed out of the rocke of Gods word by the hand and art of some deeply learned Divine but I perceive that the best testimonie which you have to alleage for your Religion is that booke composed by one of your owne side and all you can say for your selfe is as the old Proverbe runnes Aske my fellow theese if I be a true man which you know it stands him upon to affirme whether true or false As for â—â—â—â—â—rius hee is as bold impudent and shamelesse a Paâ—â—st as needs put pen to paper For those testimoniâ—s of forged Fathers and of old Liturgies which all the learned of your Religion who have any wit learning or dram of modestie appearing in them have reiected he doth boldly and familiarly cite and produce for proofes without any shame or blushing If I should for our Religion cite and produce a booke of Luther or Calvin or any other Protestant you would laugh mee to scorne yea you reiect the bookes of the Fathers printed or set forth among us though you could never iustly tax or convince any one of us of partiall dealing or of the least wilfull falsification Let mee further admonish you that you shew little discretion in bringing humane testimonies especially of late writers to maintaine your Religion against me or to confute my Religion For I am as you know a Preacher of the Gospell one of them whom yee call Protestants and wee doe not build upon any but the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Christ himselfe being the head corner stone We doe not regard in a controverted point of faith what any Father or Doctor doth hold or hath held in former ages but what Christ and his Prophets and Apostles haue left recorded in the infallible Scriptures of the old and new Testament and what the Fathers haue truly from thence observed We use the learned who have gone before us as helps and guides in places of Scripture and opinions which are doubtfull but wee doe as they desired denie their testimonies to bee grounds of faith Wherefore let us leave off all superfluous and idle allegations and discourses and let us come to a strict forme of disputation about some maine points of controversie If you be pleased to oppose any speciall article of our faith I will defend it or if you will take upon you to answer I will prove against you That your father the Pope is Antichrist That the Church of Rome is the whore of Babylon That your doctrine of merit of iustification before God by your owne workes is hereticall And that your Image-worship is damnable idolatrie Mr. Fisher. If you bee so forward to dispute I am for you and I come for that purpose But have you no other points to prove saue these That the Pope is Antichrist and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon I remember that you urged me to dispute upon these above three yeeres agoe when you came to me in the New-prison belike you spend all your time and studie in these questions Mr. Walker It is true that I desired to dispute upon these questions foure yeeres agoe and then you refused I hope you have since studied how to defend them though then you were unprovided Indeed I doe offer these questions first of all to every Priest and Iesuit with whom I meet because the proving of any one of them doth at one blow overthrow all Poperie but you