how can you be thought or dare you affirme to haue repeted this error in your entrance into your ministrie when you still pleade for iustifie that calling by the ciuile magistrate when you confesse it repugnant vnto condemned in the Testamet of CHRIST how can you be said to haue repented it when you still reteine it stand administer by yt and ioyne vnto such as still enter that way neither in deed haue you aâ—…ie other calling vnto your ministerie in your Church make it therfore either good or euill lawfull or vnlawfull by the word of God let vs bring it to the triall SPER. I stand not so much by their calling as by the calling of God by whom I am enabled to my ministrie BAR. This is Anabapâ—…isticall to iustifie open transgression by the inward conscience or gyftes might not anie thus vsurpe the ciuile magistrates office also by theiâ—… inward gyftes wisdome knowledg fitness c. but God hath ordeined a lawfull calling to euery lawfull office which may at no haÌ„d be seuered from the office which calling who so wanteth taketh honour to himself to administer c. breaketh the boundes of God vsurpeth You haue no giftes which you haue not receiued of God God knoweth his owne giftes which he hath gyuen to euery one best whom hâ—… seeth meete hath appointed to the ministerie vnto such he alwayes gyueth a lawfull calling vnto the ministerie wherfore you must eyther approue your calling by the word of God or els be held 〈◊〉 vsurper for all your giftes SPER. The BB s. tolerate manie thinges with vs. BAR. They allow nothing but their owne proceedings neither doth the land receiue or alow anie other SPER. I say not allow they may suffer that they allow not BAR. Here is good worke emongst you they tolerate with you you subscribe vnto them thus are you togeather in conspiracie against CHRIST SPER. Will you say that M r. EGERTON Mr. GARDINER are not true ministers of the Gospell because they haue no such calling as you require BAR. I require no other calling then CHRIST enioyneth which calling if they want as I am sure they do I dare affirme that they do not serue Christ in the ministrie of the Gospell all extraordinarie offices callings thervnto being now ceased SPER. All the Churches learned in EVROPE giue vs consent and allow vs for Ministers BAR. But vntill you approue your selues such by the word of God yt will nothing auaile you SPER. Our giftes Doctrines approue our ministrie Did you euer heare M r. EGERTON M r. GARDINER BAR. You still oppose your giftes against God hold the faith in respect of mens persons The meÌ„ you speake of I neuer heard in their ministerie but I know them by their ministerie to be notable Sectories false Teachers SPER. They be men of singuler giftes how can you gyue out this of them know them not neither euer heard them teach BAR. I am taught to know the tree by the fruit a false Minister by his antichristian entrance office administration all which are notably found vppon them vppon you all neither will I say that the one of theÌ„ bought his Benefice or that the other hath bene conuinced of false Doctrines by his owne Auditorye sondry times SPER. The first hath repented that you haue the other but by hearesay they are knowne to be learned men such as teach sound Doctrines BAâ—… My hearesay hath better proofe then your know But how can theis or anie of you teach sound Doctrine sincerely in a false ministerie BALAAM the Pharises SataÌ„ himself had hath as great giftes learning as they or anie of you But if we would come euen to this preaching you boste of I suppose more corrupt Teachers cannot be found in anie age then these they teaching nothing almost truly much lesse sincerely SPER. I teach Christ Iesus very God very man him crucified that truly BAR. I will not presse you with anie Argumentes drawne from your false entrance administracoÌ„n all which vndoubtedly coÌ„uince that you cannot preach CHRIST soundly yet is there no heretike that holdeth not some trueth But this I affirme will approue that you deny the whole anointing of CHRIST in his three Offices of KING PRIEST PROPHET and therfore you deny CHRIST to be come in the flesh cannot preach him soundly I graunt indeed that you preach him crucified in your Sermons Church buffetâ—…d skourged crâ—…wned with thornâ—…s by â—…ayling blasphâ—…ming impriâ—…ning le is faithfull witnesses seruants dayly at all handâ—…s you preach him blindfoulded by drawing a vaile ouer his facâ—… that the pâ—…ople should not see to th'end of his ministerie not one of you either Priest or people as yet knowing what belongeth to a true professioÌ„ a true CoÌ„munion a true Office or a tâ—…ue entrance much lesse to true administration CHRIST crucified you all abhorr you caÌ„not abide his crosse you will not suffer or abide by anie trueth but dayly seeke new cauills distinctions and â—…uasions to hide anie trueth which bringeth dâ—…nger or to auoide the crosse of CHRIST therfore you shall not reigne with him It were an infinite thing to reckon vp the diuerfitie of opinions sectes errors that are found emongst you of the ministrie it being almost an vnpossible thing to finde two of you of one â—…udgment or anie one of you constant to your selues except it be in euill one preaching one Doctrine in one place another the quite contrary in another place yâ—…a some of your chief Teachers haue preached pâ—…linodaÌ„ concerning your ministerie Sacramentes of your Church But I would now know what office these men you speake of or your self do execute SPER. M r. EGERTON is a Doctor Mr. GARDINER my sâ—…lf are pastors BAR. Your Church of England hath no such office as the Teachers Office yt hath no other then Vniuersitie Doctors which are not in anie office or therby Ministers I wene also he hath a dumbe Minister one that cannot preach for his Pastor so that he is a hireling Curat no Christian Teacher As for M r. GARDINER your self you be parish Parsons therfore cannot be held christian Pastors SPER. I deny your Argument it followeth not because they are termed Parsons therfore they are not Pastors BAR. Both the name Office are diuerse therfore not the same SPER. The Parson is called in latine Rector Ecclesiae which name properly agreeth to the Pastor BAR. Your latine name is popish one of the names of blasphemie written vppon the heades of the Beast for CHRIST hath appointed many to the office of gouerning ouerseeing not the Pastor only And therfore this name is not proper to the Pastor SPER. The Pastor should gouerne the Church BAR. But the Pastor is not to gouerne yt alone there are others ioyned in Commission with him therfore he cannot in this maner
6 MAINTENANCE of his lyuing thâ—…â—… trâ—…e â—…astor 〈◊〉 Therfore a Parish-Parson cannot â—…e called or held a true Pastor EGER. The Antecedent is not true BAR. Let me proue it First you see they haue a diuerse name the one a Parish-Parson th'other a Pastor EGER. No man of knowlegd will now call them Parsons BAR. This is the peculiar proper name belonging to their Office therfore reserued as dounge to be cast in their faces by all haue that knowledg Yea it is an open marke to euerye one that hath knowledg wherby to discerne them from true Pastors â—…he true Pastor will neuer beare the marke Caracte of the Beast of Antichrist EGER. The name is of no moment What shall we call a Parson BAR. A Parson or Baals Pâ—…iest SPER. A Parson is called Rector in latine BAR. And I shewed you the last day that his Romish name was one 〈◊〉 the namâ—…s of 〈◊〉 written vppon the heades of the Beast EGER. The Parson hath sondrie names in the Scripture as an Elder an Ouerâ—…eer a Steward c. BAR. But none of these names do distinguish his office as the name of Pastor doth But if we come to their Office we shall finde it as strange as the name therof SPER. Proue that BAR. If Mr. FOXE say truly the Parsons Office tooke begynning when the Mâ—…tropolitane Bishopps sprong and were as their Baylifes But it is the same Office that was is executed in the Romish Church Therfore not the Pastors Office EGER. It is not the same Office BAR. The self same You take it as they left it as also all the ministrie you haue beside Only you put in new men in those old Offices EGER. The entrance ministration is quiâ—…e changed the Priestes werâ—… Massing Sacrificing Priestes prayed for the dead worshipped Saintes c. so do not we GREN. So do you also your whole worship being changed but oâ—…t of Latine into English EGER. We do not so BAR. We shall hereafter haue occasion to discusse these matters when wâ—… câ—…me to handle your ministration Oâ—…ly wâ—… still finde the Oâ—…fice of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the sâ—…lf 〈◊〉 that then it was and this none know better thâ—…n thâ—…y that haue the giftes of the same Benefices But I will draw an Argumenâ—… from some Doctrine In the Church of Christ there is no ecclesiasticall Office â—…boue the Pastor But in your Church there are sondriâ—… ecâ—…lefiasticall Offâ—…ces abouâ—… the Parson Therfore the Parsons Office is not the Pastors Office EGER. The Apostles Office was aboue the Paâ—…tors Office in the Church of CHRIST BAR. But that was temporarie but for a time we reason not what was but what now is in the Church synce extraordinarie Offices ceased We reade of no Office in the Church of CHRIST aboue the Pastors Office Therfore it cannot be the Office of a Parson EGER. A true Pastor may exercise his Office vnder another ecclesiasticall Office aboue him BAR. God hath instituted no ecclesâ—…asticall Office aâ—…oue him Therfore he may exercise his Office vnder nâ—… ecclesiasticall Office abouâ—… him EGERT I deny the Argument Those thinges are not now simplie vnlawfull which at some times were lawfull BAR. That is verie false All things are now simplie vnlawfull which GREEN are forbidden in the word of GOD as the Leuiticall Priesthoode all extraordinarie ministries now are which yet somtimes were lawfull EGER. Did not sondrye Pastors Ministers exercise their ministrie vnder Diotrâ—…phes BAR. Neuer that I euer heard of But if they had should it therfore be lawfull EGER. But if the Paâ—…tor should execute his Office vnder another ecclesiasticall Office should he therfore be no true Pastor BAR. A true Pastor cannot execute vnder another â—…cclesiasticall Office in the Church of CHRIST Therfore the question is vaine the thing being vnpossible EGER. But if there be anie Office aboue him should he therfore cease to be a Pastor BAR. What so euer ecclesiasticall Office is now aboue the Pastor is Antichristian neither is he a true Pastor that exerciseth his Office vnder such EGER. I deny that BAR. VVhatsoeuer ecciesiasticall Office is not expressed in the TestameÌ„t of CHRIST is Autichristian But there is no mention of anie ecclesiasticall Office to be now aboue the Paâ—…tors Office in the Testament of CHRIST Therfore â—…l such Offices as are aboue the Pastors Office are Antichriâ—…tian EGER. I deny the Maior All ecclesiasticall offices that are aboue the Pastors Office are not Antichristian BAR. You may aswell denie the whole ministrie of the new Testament bring in anie other But thus I proue it CHRIST hath left a perâ—…ect ministrie Therfore nothing may be added vnto it All other Ministries are Antichristian saue that vvhich CHRIST hath left in his Testament But CHRIST hath left no such ministrie as these in his Testament Therfore c. EGER. Though CHRIST hath left a perfect ministerie yet all things that are added vnto it are not ANTICHRISTIAN BAR. Yes all new ministries are ANTICHRISTIAN he of ANTICHRIST that executeth standeth vnder or iustifieth them For he that bringeth in a new ministrie taketh CHRITS Office sitteth in his place is that ANTICHRIST spokeÌ„ of the Apoâ—…tle 2. Thes. 2. and by our Sauiour CHRIST Mat. 24. all that stand vnder such a new deuised ministrie stand vnder ANTICHRIST Mr. SPERIN here would haue denyed the Bishop to be ANTICHRIST But M r. EGERTON willed him neuer to denyâ—… that which they had agreed vppon BAR. Do you hold the faith in respect of mens persons â—…hal no more be trueth then you haue agreed vppon These Doctrines following were holden affirmed by M r. EGERTON in discourse with Mr. GREENVVOOD as M r. BARROVV was writing other Arguments Assertions 1 Eger That the true Church may be vvithout the povver of CHRIST to ceâ—…sure redreâ—…e GREEN I neuer read of anie such Church in the Scriptures CHRIST hath giuen to euerie Church his power to censure redresse EGER. Though we want Discipline yâ—…t we haue the power of CHRIST by the Scepter of his word in Doctrine GREN. By the word Discipline you turne away the whole practise of the Gospel neither are you gouerned by CHRIST his Scepter howsoeuer you may take his word in your mouth 2 EGER. That the name of a Bishop spoken of 1. Tim. 3. is onâ—…y peculiar vnto the Pastor Teacher because it is said verse 2. he must be apâ—… to teach GREN. Though some particular rules in that generall Doctrine be only spoken of the Pastorall Teachers Office yet it is â—…uident by the whole scope of the place that there are also rules gyuen for other Elders which are also called BBs in sondrye places of the Scriptures 3 EGER. That no man may preach the vvord vvithout an externall calling GREEN Giftes of interpretations are sufficient calling to speake of the word in the Congregation in due order place EGER. That is not so 4 EGER. VVe abstaine from Excommunication because
coÌ„tend for the maintenance of the faith that was once giueÌ„ vnto the Saints Reâ—… 14. 9. c. Iude. â—… M r. COOPER to shift off the answeare of our Arguments wherwith he was pressed wheÌ„ he perceiued the issue of them he rose from the table brake off Conference with vs pretending hast to be gonne but the dore being lockt he turned him to two gâ—…lemen which sate behind as hearâ—…rs of our conference and fell â—… perswading of them whervpon I IOHN GREN left M r. BARâ—…OVV Mr. SPERIN in conference still went to giue eare to Mr. COOPER whose deceiptâ—… I fownde so pernitions Dâ—…ctrines so fowle that I againe replied vpon him and receiued certaine errors from his mouth some wherof I shall heare insert with mine answere in breife not following our vvhole discourse COOP. A priuate man ought not to make question our doubt of the Ministers ouâ—…ward calling but if he find comfort in heart by his Doctrine he ought to approue of his ministrie what calling soeuer he haue GREN. This is sweete Doctrine that you sowe here hath not the â—…orde giuen as great Commandement to auoide false Prophetts as to heare obey the true messengers and all true messengers thervpon approuing their sending to all mens consciens by the euideâ—…t testimonie of Gods reueyled will shall not the flocke know their Pastor yea chuse call their Pastor COOP. If one come into a CongregacoÌ„n heare one preach he ought not to make question of the Ministers calling or refuse his Doctrine GREN. If one come so before know that that preacher hath a false outward calling yea that he hath no office in a true Church but is a false Prophet he offendeth in hearing of him especially in a false Church for ther is no false teacher but teachâ—…th some truth c. COOP. A man may be a true Minister to a people vncalled they are a true Church or faithfull Congregation potentia though not actu and he may be an officer or minister vnto them they bâ—…ing a true Church Potentia GREN. This is such Doctrine as I neuer heard that a Pastor can be ordeyned exercise the duties of a Pastor to a Church that as yet is not But your Ministers most sacrilegiouslie giue them the Sacâ—…aments also in this estate COOP. Though the Minister do deliuer the Sacraments to the open knowne vnworthie and so commit sacriledge yet maie a priuate man communicate with the Minister that partie not be partaker of their sinne GREN. If I associat a theife Communicate in his â—…uill shall I not be guiltie how mich more if I reproue not this transgressioÌ„ against God absteine from their fellowship till they repent or by due â—…rder be censured BARTLET Here M r. BARTLET a gentleman said yt was not well we had not some more orderlie Conference about theis weightie causes that the truth might appeaâ—…e GREN. You see they will not come to aniâ—… pointe of Doctrine to conclude anie thing we haue long made sute to haâ—…e some free Conference neuer could obteine anie but are lockt vp close prisoners COOP. They denie our Church ministrie therfor are not to be disputed with BARTL Yet their reasons would be seene coÌ„uinced orderly if they deserue yt then to suffer punishment GREN. We haue often shewed causes whie we hold your Church ministerie to be false and not to be ioyned with of anie that wilbe saued as for example you haue not a people rightlie gathered vnto CHRIST but stand one with the world so that your parishes cannot be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a people called fourth 2. you haue set a popish ministerie ouer this whole â—…ande 3. you most sacrilegiously giue the Sacraments in this order to all commers 4. you worâ—…hipp God after mens deuises and not according to CHRISTS Testament 5. you haue not the power or freedome to redresse sinne by due censure being all Subiect to theis wicked Courts c. BARTL Theis thinges would be answeared conuinced COOP. We graunt the things they seeke are good and manie of vs haue written and taught fullie the same but they seeke them not by due order GREN. This is not true you are limited what to preach to conforme your Doctrines to theis AntichristiaÌ„ Orders still practize coÌ„trarie iâ—… you write or teach anie truth And as for vs we seeke to do the will of God after the same order that all true Prophets CHRIST his Apostles haue taught practised for Conscience towards God to haue no fellowship with that ministerie Church which reiecteth CHRISTES Testament and will not be guided by him his Ordinances COOP. We professe teach trulie all the Articles of faith GREN. The Papists teach the same Articles in generall wordes but nether you nor they ether teach the particular Doctrines our practise the same truly But both you and they denie speaciall Doctrines of our Iustification COOP. What Article of faith do we not truliâ—… teach GREN. You teach that CHRIST descended into hell after his death and buriall COOP. We hold it not neither teach yt manie of vs haue taught written against yt you therfore do vs wrong to chardge vs with vt GREN. It is set out with priuiledge as an Article of your faith receiued and redd in all your Parishes COOP. Though the gouernours of our Church sett yt out and we caâ—… not help yt yet we are not to be chardged with yt GREN. Besids that you daylie communicate with them that do hold yt if not reade yt to the people you haue subscribed to this all other such errors in your Church of late as I heare Here Mr. COOPER was smitten with mutenes and the gentleman said haue you donne so COOP. He careth not whâ—…t he saith of vs. GREN. Will you denie yt I will bring witnes to proue yt vnto you before to morrow at 8 of the clocke if you denie yt COOP. I will not make you acquainted with my priuate actions GREN. I desire not to knowe your priuate actioÌ„s but this is a publique matter of your subiection to Antichrist in your whole ministerie against your conscience but yt seemes your deeds ar euill and therfore you would hide them least they should be reproued of the light The gentleman said yt was thought we held some error about the lords prayer as they call yt whervppon I shewed him ouâ—… iudgment in writing said that we vvould not continue in anie error to our knowledg and when he read thatwe said yt could not be called the Lords prayer because he neuer prayed yt M r. COOPER tooke exception thus COOP. It may be called the Lords prayer in respect he taught yt his Disciples GREN. This proueth it cannot be called the lords prayer for Doctrine is one thing and prayer is an other Prayer is a powring fourth of our hearts vnto the Lord according to our present waÌ„ts Doctrine
Arch-Deacon now a Lord B. which offices by their vse appeare and by the lawes of our land are held to be ecclesiasticall SPER. Much is to be giuen to the Princes authoritie BAR. We will afterward speake of the Princes authoritie let vs first enquire of theis their offices SPER. I will not here reason furder of them For there were manie in the windowes by this time was my keeper retorned with paper ynke which he was a litle before sent for I had forgotten to insert certeine speech we had concerning the Church I told M r. Sperin that I neu◅r deni◅d that CHRIST h◅d his Church in England but that Church was s◅perate gathered from the prophane of the land now in gr◅t p◅rsecution vnder the malignant Church He then demanded of me what I thouht of thei◅ parish assemblies I answered that as they stood in this confusion Idolatrie they could not be held the true e◅tablished Churches of CHRIST Now the ynke paper being brought M r. Sperin set downe this Proposition SPER. The parish assemblies vvhich haue preaching Ministers vvho for life and doctrine are vnreproueable and vvhich themselues pr◅fesse the true faith Christian obedience are Churches BAR. Hereunto I set downe this other Proposition Your parish assemblies as they generallie consist of all prophane vvicked c. mingled togeather in one bodie vvorshipping God after the deui◅es of men s◅anding in subiection ◅o the An◅ichristian power Courtes of the BBs c. though they haue a preaching Ministrie yet are not the true established Churches of Christ. I denied also his Proposition Namely that there were anie such parishes which made such profession of faith obedience and had such a Minister as he spake of which he endeuored to proue thus SPER. They are as lawfull Churches of Christ as the assemblie of beleeuers in Corinth vvas a lawfull Church of Christ But tha◅ assemblie vvas a lawfull Church of Christ 1. Corinth 1. 2. BAR. Your first Proposition is denied SPER. What soeuer was necessarie to the decerning of the Church of God in the assemblie of Corinth is in our assemblies BAR. It is still denyed SPER. The profession of faith obedience ministrie Sacraments were the necessarie pointes wherby to discerne that Church but theis we haue in as good or better maner then they BAR. It is not so with you you haue not theis things in such maner as the Church of Corinth had SPER. I will insist vppō my Parish in milkstreet It maketh such profession of faith hath such a ministrie of the Gosp◅ll c. BAR. It maketh not such profession nor hath such a ministrie of the Gospell SPER. Some of the Church of Corinth erred in chief points o◅ the faith denying the resurrection c. They erred in maners being gyuē to fornication incest oppression Drunkennes their ministrie were vaineglorious mixing teaching their doctrines with the words that mās wisedome affordeth de◅iuering their Sacraments a◅ter a corrupt euill maner c. Yet for all theis faultes they were pronounced by the holy Gho◅t the Church of God But in my Parish in milkstreet we hold no such opinions or errors we haue no such faultes either in life or maners nor in our ministrie so ours is much more the Church of God BAR. It is veri◅ preposterous to reason of the ministracōn of i◅ the Church before you haue proued your Pari◅h to be an established Church which you see I deny require you to proue In all this you haue reasoned from a Church to no Church so no comparison betwixt them nor sequell of your Argume◅t The best Church that euer was or shalbe whilest it consisteth of mortall mē is daily subiect to manie errors which faultes being shewed in the glasse of Gods word it by by washeth purgeth them away in that fountaine which is opened to the howse of DAVID for s◅nne vncleanenes sondrie of the Church of Corinth erred in manie of theis things the whole Church in some as in the abuse of both the Sacramēts the neglect of their ◅cclesiasticall cen◅ures But the Church of Corinth vppon the Apostles admonition by one letter repented shewed great sorrow amended But now for your Parish it consisteth of a cōfuse companie of prophane Atheists couetous glu◅tons vaine light ignorant wicked people of al degrees estates of each sex◅ age they being all generallie without the knowledg faith or feare of God without care of this life or of the life to come to all which you indifferently administer sell your Sacraments delyuering them in a false maner not according to CHRISTS Testament Your whole ministrie ministracōn is false Antichristian Furder you haue neither the freedom to practise CHRISTS Testament nor the power or will to redresse anie thing that is amisse emongst you but e◅ther runne to the Antichristian power Courtes of the Bishopps or els continue obstinat carelesse in your synnes Thus you see no comparison anie way betwixt the Church of Corinth your Parish SPER. I know the contrary to this I both know visit all the housholders their families I admit not anie to the Sacraments which haue not knowledg make true profession of faith BAR. I know this I haue said to be true that you haue do admit some to your Sacraments which haue no such knowledge make no such profession of faith SPER. What is true profession BAR. Where faith obedience are ioyned to the word of God S◅ They all make true profession belelee◅e accordingly who so doth not I seperate him from the Sacraments BAR Their vngodly life false maner of worshipping of God shew that they neither professe nor beleeue aright furder thi◅ your maner of suspending or seperating is as popish as the rest euen the Instrument of that foolish Shepheard where finde you in all CHRISTS Testament that one man may seperate anie alone SPER. I do it with the consent of the people BAR. How should that be when they know not of it Do no◅ you yt by vertue of your Idole Seruice-booke and by that power your Lord the Bishop alloweth you for CHRIST neue◅ gaue anie such censure as this suspencōn ◅o his Church or such power to anie one man to seperate anie from the Sacraments which is not pronounced excommunicat SPER. PAVL to the Thessa◅ians willeth that such as are found disobedient should be noted with a letter his companie auoided that he might be ashamed BAR. You alledg not the text right neither doth the Apostle there meane of Suspencōn It is wonderfull how you som◅ others that haue written of seemed to seeke reformation dare thus apparantly innouate the Testament of CHRIST by bringing in your deuises into the Church putting them in stead of a Scepter into CHRISTS hand making him to reigne by them exercise them ouer the soules of men By this time manie being gotten
as a L. Bishop And seing we are entred into speech of their ministrie I would faine know what ecclesiasticall Office they execute iu â—…our Church EGER. They are Pastors BAR. Whie each of them doth superintend ouersee diuers yea many hundreth Flockes Pastors These are stâ—…ange Pastors as euer I heard of EGER. I say not as they are Bishopps they are Pastors But as they were Ministers of the Gospell before which ministrie they haue not lost by being Bishopps BAR. You meane when they were Parish-Parsons But that Office they haue forgon when they were made Bishopps EGER. That is not so BAR. The office of a Parson the office of a Bishop are diuers distinct offices of your Church one man cannot be both a Bishop a Parson EGER. A Bishop may be a Pastor as you call it a Parson BAR. Then a ma may execute diuers offices of your Church at one time This was neuer heard of in the Church of CHRIST since the Apostles tyme. EGER. Might not the Euangelistes also execute diuers offices after the Apostles time BAR. I haue not read that they did But you hold not your Bishops Euangelistes yet they by your saying execute diuers ecclesiasticall offices at one tyme As to be Parsons Lord Bishopps both which are distinct diuers offices of the Church Hold you it lawfull for one man to exercise diuerse offices of your Church at one time also EGER. To execute diuers Offices is vnlawfull BAR. But the office of a Lo. Bishop of a Parish Parson are diuerse Offices of your Church which one man exerciseth Therefore their ministeriall actions in these Offices are vnlawfull EGER. These Offices are not so diuerse to disanull their first ministrie which they had when they were Preachers BAR. These Offices are so diuerse as one man cannot execute them both but he must of force do the one by his substitute Moreouer the Office of a Lo. Bishop doth abolish swallow vp the other For he cannot be both an Ouerseer of so many Churches and Pastors be a priuate peculiar Pastor of one Church too EGER. The Bishopps Office is but a ciuile addicoÌ„n which he ioyneth vnto his former ministrie BAR. Whie you see the office of a Lo. Bishop is one of the cheif ecclesiasticall Offices of your Church and this office is wholye conuersant in ecclesiasticall affaires EGER. They are Peeres Lords of the Parliament house BAR. Yea but spirituall Lords by vertue of their ecclesiasticall office Therefore the Office of a Parish-Priest of a Lo. Bishop are diuerse distinct Offices of your Church EGER. Yet are they not so diueâ—…se as by taking the Office of a Bishop they loose their first ministrie BAR. Euerie ministrie in the Church is belonging vnto in regarde of an Office neither can be otherwise or longer executed then in that office to vvhich it belongeth But the BBs haue resigned that ecclesiasticall Office vvher vnto their first Ministrie belonged Therfore vvhen they keepe not that office they cannot keepe that ministrie EGER. The Bishopps haue not resigned their fiâ—…st Office BAR. It is manifest that they haue For it is impossible that they should be both Superintendents ouer so manie Churches execute the Pastors Office ouer one Church togither EGER. Though one man execute diuerse Offices his actions are not simple vnlawfull BAR. What a monstrous confusion commixture of all GODS ordinances is made by this Doctrine of yours GOD hath vtterly forbidden anie one man to manage both a ciuile ecclesiasticall office at once You notwithstaÌ„ding the Bishopps exercise both ciuile and ecclesiasticall authoritie execute many ecclesiasticall Offices of the Church yet in this estate would haue their ministeriall actions lawfull EGER. Though to exercise diuerse Offices be vnlawfull yet it is not so vnlawfull as to disanull their ministriall actions BAR. I haue proued that ecclesiasticall ministrie ministration to be vnlawfull which hath no foundatioÌ„ in GODS word But this their mixt ministrie confused ministracoÌ„n hath not only no warrant in but is found expresslie contrarye to the whole word Ordinances of GOD Therfore this their ministrie ministeriall actions are simplie vtterly vnlawfull EGER. Though a Tyrant be an vnlawfull Magistrate yet may his actions in his regiment be lawfull GREN. You must make difference betwene the vsurping of a ciuile Office in a Common-wealth by a Tyrant and the vâ—…urping of an ecclesiasticall office in the Church BAR. There is no comparison betwixt the regiment of a Tyrant in a Common-wealth and the ministration of an vsurper or wreâ—…ched person in the Church With the first we which are but subiects haue not to meddle either to place or displace but to obey in the Lord such Ciuile Magistrates as are set ouer vs of the Lord. The second namely of all ecclesiasticall offices we haue the sole choise ouersight power to create power to depose neither are we to suffer aâ—…ie vnlawfull ministerie or ministration But now to speake simplie of the regiment of a Tyrant as coÌ„sidered in it self it is altogâ—…ther vnlawfull vnto himself because he vsurpeth that office by intrusion contrarie to the lawe of GOD and â—…hal therfore accompt before the Lord. EGER. But in asmuch as the Bishopps were once lawfull Pâ—…stors they cannot loose their first office ministrie and so their ministeriall actions as preaching of the word ministratioÌ„ of the Sacraments are still lawfull BAR. They manie wayes haue forfeyted their mâ—…nistrie place if so be it were so by taking executing two Offices by taking other ecclesiasticall offices those such as they cannot execute their Pastorall Office whilest they keepe them Therfore they can be no Pastors neither their administrations of the word Sacraments whilest they remayne in this estate lawfull EGER. They may notwithstanding these other Offices execute their Pastoral Offices as to preach the word minister the Sacraments which are the chief things of the Pastors Office BAR. They can not do these thinges duely in asmuch as they cannot duely attend and watch ouer their peculiar Flock whilest they keepe these other Offices But I would fayne know of you when they had this true pastorall office whereof you speake so much For surelye if euer they were true Pastors they are now wondrouslie apostate EGERT When they were first made Ministers BAR. Your ministerie is large Do you not meane when they were first made pariâ—…h-Parsons EGER. They were then Pastors when they were such Parsons as you terme them BAR. You hold then the Parsons Office to be the Pastors Office EGER. Yea. BAR. I will let passe their hauing manie Parsonages as also the insufficiencye of sondrie that professe the same And only shew in generall why a Parish-Parson cannot be held a true Pastor according to the Gospell Testament of CHRIST The Parish-Parsâ—…n hâ—…th not the 1 NAME 2 OFFICE 3 CALLING 〈◊〉 â—…is Office 4 ADMINISâ—…SRATION in his Office 5 POVVER â—…or that
vve haue no Elderâ—… as yet GREEN The Church is neuer without the power to excommunicate 5 EGER. Our Pastors only now vvant some Censurers BAR. The leaâ—…t member of the Church that is a CoÌ„municant hath as much interest in all the censures of the Church as the Pastor haue equall power according to the rules of the word to censure the Pastor for errour or transgression as the Pastor hath to â—…ensure them To M r. EGERTON delyuer this Almightie Gâ—…d vvhose Spirit is one and ioyneth in one all his elect vâ—…ssells in his good tyme bringing them forth from darkâ—…es to light gyâ—…e you vs â—…o be of one mynde of one iudgment in the trueth to the glory of his owne name our reioycing in his mereyes for euer and the present conuerâ—…ion of manie to the â—…bedience of CHRIST SEing it hath pleased God after our long imprisonment once of late to send you vnto vs by what meanes or to what further purpose we yet know not to giue vs a beginning â—…n entrance into the discussing of his trueth by some kinde of conference which because it was not with that harmonye that it may please God to effect if your heart as ours be set to know his will and to proceede by one rule euen the rule of his authenticall TestameÌ„t We are moued to write vnto you rather by your modest honest sober behauiour shewed to vs the Lords most vnworthie witnesses then for anie procurement of peace to our selues For most of all we desire your saluation and with all the good of manie by the measure of spirituall guyftes gyuen you and as we trust you will bestow them to the furtherance of his Church Yet in your last conference to speake the trueth we found your spirit in no louing consent to the trueth but dangerouslie corrupted or at least set to oppose with poysoned distinctions by vaine philosophie yea against that trueth your self would not insist to denie whether to trye our streÌ„gth or to abuse the hearers or for endangering your self Yet against al these PAVL saith we cannot anie thing against the truth but for the truth We haue since often merueiled we heard no more from you or of your estate which theÌ„ was made manifest to be without promise whiles you exercise a ministeriall function vnder ANTICHRIST in a false office vnto a confuse assembliâ—… of all sorts of people one with the world Wherevppon hearing no further yet of you we thought it good in tender care of your saluation for the aduancement of the Lords trueth to shew you so neere as our fraile memories could collect the summe of such Arguments or Positions Answers as passed betwene vs hauing set downe nothing but that wherof we haue the positioÌ„s to shew vnder wryting at that present honest witnesses to testifie our vprightnes herein And least you should otherwise conceiue that we should some wayes iniurie you we haue sent you a Copie to pervse and if you make yet anie other aâ—…swere to our Assertions then there is conteyned we freely gyue you libertie so to do But cheiflie the end of our wryting is to stirr you vp not to leane the matter thus coÌ„sidering the seriousnes therof but eyther yeild thervnto or procure some more large and free place time to make our mynds plaine Faith open one to another that the truth may appeare and they that depart from the same be knowen And the same vve vvryte vnto you herein we hereby offer to all the rest of your fellow Ministers our hearts as the Lord knoweth being opeÌ„ to all men to their good the glory of our GOD the father of our Lord IESVS CHRIST only the Lord delyuer vs from vnreasonable men and suppresse all his aduersaries and opposers against his glorious truth Amen Most desirous of your fellowship in the Faith of Christ. HENRY BARROVV IHON GREENVVOOD To M r. BARROVV and M r. GREENVVOOD The Lord Iesus open oâ—…r eyes to â—…ee the truth sanctifie our tongues 〈◊〉 penâ—…es to declare the same Ireceyued a Letter from you also a Conference in writing Touching your Letter this I answere First for those poysoned distinctions you mentioÌ„ if you had named them I hope no poyson would haue appeared in them except it had come from the contagion of your owne Spirits Secondly for vaine Philosophie if you meane therby for other I remember none that help which GOD hath lent vs by Logicke to reason breiflie and plainly you do but as Brownâ—… hath done whose braynlesse reasons to proâ—…e the vanâ—…tie therof are not only easie to be answered by other men but also abundantly confuted by his owne practise both in speach writing Touching your feined Conference this I say I finde in it some things wanting that were spoken manie things expressed that were neuer spoken no not ymagined on my behalf most things that were spoken peruerted Finally I finde it so full of partialitie so voyd of vpright true dealing and so far out of order that I haue neither leasure muchlesse anie luâ—…t to deale with it And if you shall proceede to gyue out Copies I shalbe readye to disclayme you wheresoeâ—…er I come not only for men voyde of pietie but euen of ciuile honestie also Now concerning a free conference I haue neither powre nor will to performe it my reasons I reserue 〈◊〉 further oportunitie But if you will deale with me do this send me vnder your hand some 6. or 7. or as you thinke good for the nomber of your cheif reasons whie you refuse to come to our publique assemblies breiflie plainly concluded and I will by the help of GOD as my leisure shal serue set you downe my answere in the like sort vnder my owne hand with reasons why you ought to come This course if you like I will deale with you as I may otherwise I will not meddle Written the 14. Aprill 1590. Written by him that not only desireth your good in the Lord but also is ready by anie peaceable christiaÌ„ course of proceeding to furder the same I EGERTON so I write To Mr. EGERTON MOre Grace feare of GOD vnto you This your replie vnto our Letter we haue receiued read with litle comforte perceiuing therby euen that smale sparke of hope which began to appeare in you to be vtterly extinct the bellowes burnt the drosse wil not be purged froÌ„ the siluer that there might proceed a vessell to the Fyner so that the Founder should melt in vaine where the Lord hath not made choise of the mettall Greatly sorie we are to behold your fâ—…arefull estate who not being able to approue the ministrie you exercise by the word of God yet to your owne furder iudgmeÌ„t the seducing of manie soules continue to plead for practize the same for the feare of men the loue of the world to auoide persecution submitting your self your whole church ministrie Doctrines vnto the pro
fessed enemies of CHRIST of his gospell such whom your self hath confessed to be Antichristian with whō you haue not ōly sit amongst the other Commissioners in Caiaphas house but also by an especiall ticket according to their Mandat◅ were sent out amongest the chosen bande of their guard to feight against the poore persecuted witnesses of Christ yea amongst the rest of your subornate witnesses to lay in wayte against the bloud of the Saints endeuoring by the deepe learning of Sa◅an to entangle them into the same counterfet walking with your self as also by your Sophisticall distinctiōs to obscure turne away the truth peruerting cōfounding al Gods ordinaces calling light darkenes darknes light labouring to perswade that one mā may execute both ciuile ecclesiastical offices at once Yea though he so do yet his ministrie in both of thē is lawfull Likewise that though one man executed sondry Offices of the Church at one tyme yet this his ministerie in them all is lawfull also Yea though the Bishop execute a strange tyrānicall ministerie neuer read nor heard of in the Testament of CHRIST vsurping authoritie ouer so manie Churches Pastors possessing the very Chaire of ANTICHRIST corrupting changing the whole ministerie and Ordinances of the Gospel c Yet are they to be esteemed true Ministers of CHRIST their ministeriall actions good Theis sondrye other enormous blasphemous Doctrines you strowed emongst vs and sought to confirme them by these such lyke poysoned distinctions Not simplie euell Not simply vnlawfull Good in parte Though it be vnlawfull to execute diuerse Offices yet are not his actions therein vnlawfull Though his Office he executeth in the Church be vnlawfull yet are his ministeriall actions lawfull Of the substance of the essen c. without which you cannot reason nor by the euident testimonie of Gods word approue your doings vnto all men Now let the christian or but indifferent Reader iudge of the leauen poyson of theis distinctions cauills of what spirit they proced and by whom they are vsed whither by you or by vs. As for the opinions name of Browne there is no cause you should vpbraid vs therwith he being a mā with whom we had neuer anie thing to doe neither may haue in this estate of his Apostacy He is now a member of your Church toward whom we thinke you walke not according to CHRISTS rule neither yet deale brotherly with him much lesse as beseemeth a guyde teacher of the Church thus to publish raile of your Brother Browne without and before christian admonition orderly censure But hauing thus behaued your self towards him that is so ◅ere vnto you we must not think it strange if you multiplie your reproches vppon vs that are deuided so far from you as Sion is from Babilon Cōcerning that Conference or rather that summe of our conference this we say We in all louing maner sent it vnto you to peruse correct or to shew your dislike wherein you iudged it faultye Yea we gaue you free lybertie if you disliked anie of those answers which you then made vnto our reasons to alter chaunge them as your self vppon better aduise should thinke meete so loath were we to gyue you the least cause of offence so desirous to haue the truth further brought to light which if you had performed with that faithfullnes and modestie that beseemed you we expected in so high causes then had you not gayned this iust blame publick infamie you now by these your dealings haue brought vppon your self But in steade of this loe you haue pronounced the whole wryting which we sent feyned Some things there vvanting vvhich vvere spoken Manie things there expressed vvhich vv◅re neuer spoken nor imagined by you And most things there spoken peruer◅ed by ◅s Finally you found it so full of partialitye so voide of vpright and true dealing and so far out of order as you haue neither leisure nor lust to deale vvith yt First we say there was no cause you should expect to haue euery thing wrytten that was then spoken both in regard of our fraile slippery memories as also that we signified vnto you our intent to be but to summe vp the discourse of such cheif pointes as were then handled willingly passing by other impertinent and lesse necessarie speaches But yet if you can call anie to remembrance which may anie way benefit you or preiudice vs if you shall signifie them vnto vs we will most willingly insert them For the order we will not greatly contend because it is of lytle moment vnto vs Yet is there cause we should aswell remember it as you because we were both alyke in the action had the Propositions before vs which you knowe were writtē as the matters fell out in handling But now touching your other chardges of adding peruerting falsefying c. Surely if theis things stoode thus great were our sinne toward God towards you Yea woe vnto our selues if we should walke vvith such festered consciences Hovv should vve thē appeare before God or men vvith comfort Though the measure of our gyfts be smale yet God accepteth the vvorke of his ovvne Spirit We need not neither euer did defend his most plaine pure truth against the most subtile malignant aduersaries vvith lyes falsefying sclaundering c. muchlesse in this actiō as you chardg vs. No God is vvitnesse vnto our consciences vvith vvhat care vprightnes vve haue set dovvne these things being guyltie to our selues of no such crimes as you accuse vs. Yea for our further clearing herein vve haue set dovvne no one poynt of importance vvhich vve tooke not in vvryting from your ovvne mouthes euen before your eyes read it in your presence and in the hearing of sondry honest vvitnesses vvhich Propositions vvitnesses still remaine to be produced in record of the truth against you or vs vvherein vve depart frō the same And surely much better had you prouided for your ovvne credit and much more impeached ours if you had set downe some perticulers vvherin vve had thus falsified peruerted before you had in this maner reproched vs especially being requested thervnto by vs vvho not trusting to much to our ovvne memories first sent our Copie vnto the vvitnesses then vnto you to correct or reproue vvhat you dislyked or thought amisse therein vve being alvvayes ready most desirous to alter it according to the truth But you as though there were no Iudge in heauē no witnesses in earth of the things that passed betwixt vs haue most boldlye without all feare shame or truth denied euē what your owne mouth vttered accusing vs as voide of all vprightnes true dealing full of partialitie c. and all to hide your owne corrupt estate the vanitie weaknes of your defenses from the eyes of the world Not being able nor daring to produce or alledge anie one pointe in perticuler
5. 6. 7. Lyes the vvorst vve vvish you is that you had neuer made or els had now broken this vngodly oath that you had clearly cast of their antichristian yoke had deliuered your soule from them and that you durst indeede boldly speake stand against their Antichristian authoritie vngodly proceedings vve are willing vppon theis condicōns for your so great good to suffer more then a lytle reproche The 6. Lye should be That you haue sworne C◅nonicall obedience vnto the BBs We finde the lawes of your Church to be that none be suffred to preach or administer in your Church or be made full Priest except he first sweare his Canonical obedience vnto his Ordinarie diligently to appeare at his Courts to obs◅rue their decrees none may preach without the BBs licence or if he speake against anie thing by publicke authoritie established or by the same authoritie that shalbe established in your Church hereafter These lawes we finde genērall no particuler exception to the same therfore we see not how or whie you should more be exempt from this oath licence lawes then the rest of your bretheren fellow Priests Furder you do preach administer after these orders Canōs prescribed by your LL s. the BB s therfore it is likely you haue takē the same oath licence or that which is all one it is most sure you stand vnder the same Antichristian lawes yoke We will beleue your 7. to be a lye when you shall haue forsaken your Antichristian ministerie which you now execute c. and speake suffer boldly sincerely against the BB s. authoritie proceedings till then you must beare with vs if we esteeme you as we finde you g◅ue no credit to your ambiguous speaches wherby we know not whither you will or will not speake against the BB s. authoritie This your 8. lye That the people by you◅ confessions vver◅ all receiued by constraint ymmediatly from Idolatry into your Church vvithout preaching of the gospell you haue halfe marred by the Figure of Omissio◅ in an euill conscience leauing out the one half of your matter least if you had iustly reported it you might haue bene ashamed to haue called it a l◅e seing it should to all men appeare a most manifest truth confirmed by the times past pres◅nt Let vs therfore help you out with the rest that the lye may be more notorious It followeth in our letter thus To call them to the faith or anie Christian volun◅rie profession made by them in particuler to vvitnes their faith tr◅e cōfession Now you haue your whole tale let vs see with what face or truth you ca◅ denie this At the first planting of your Church in the begynning of our Queene Elizabeths reigne for your confession we haue the effect of this vnder your f◅llow M r. SPERIN his hād which being read before you reported vnto you you neither gainsay◅d it in anie thing neither would or could stand to iustifie their order in the first establi◅hing of your Church Your 9 Lye is t◅at all the p◅ople remaine still in the same disorder confusi◅ c. That litle which you here also by the same figure in all euill conscience suppresse would haue done better in this place then c. and peraduenture might so haue cleared the pointe as it might haue saued both you vs from the imputation of this lye also the words that lacke are these and seruile subiection vnto these your Lord Bishopps their Courts Officers Canons tog◅ather vvith you put it now togeather see if you can denie it or ani◅ part of it It is manifest you still haue and reteine all the same p◅ople or their seede in the same confusion false worship the same Antichristian ministerie ordinances no seperation no reformation as y◅t made this that our Conference but the present estate of your C◅urch best of all sheweth And these things stāding thus your 10. Lye will likewise proue a truth to your f◅rder chardge viz. that you are poured ou◅ in the vvages ◅f Balaam Seing you still administer to this prophane miscelyne people in this confusion subiection for their hyre c. we need not doubt with the Apostle Iude to say that you are powred out in the error of Balaam for vvage and with the Apostle Pe◅er that for◅aking saking the right way you haue gone astray following the way of Balaa◅ of Boz◅r that loued the wage of iniquitie thinking that g◅yne is godlynes making marchādise of the word like an hire◅ing Yea it were no hard matter to proue that you maintaine the Doctrine of Balaam that taught Balac to set a trap before the children of Israel to eate things sacrificed to Idoles to cōmyt fornication If your sitting in Commission in Caiaphas hall with that old false Prophet of Londō your finger in his bloudye Mand◅te by name especiall ticket your subtile cōference with CHRISTS persecuted seruants in their Prysons your continuall clamors in your Pulpit were duely skanned That you do or ought to administer the Sacramēts at your Lord Bi◅hops Comaundement is manifest in that you are full Priest Euerie full minister of your Church ought by the lawes of your Church may deliuer the Sacraments That we here vrdge not your Lord BB s. late edict vnto all Curats or hireling Preach◅rs that were full ministers to that effect That you hid with drewe your selfe from the fellowship and Cōmunion of your parishion◅rs flocke at your last Easter leauing them to the ministerie conduct of your dumbe Pastor is to be proued by manie witnesses the words of your owne wife and seruants vnto our messenger that was to d◅lyuer our letter vnto you if you might haue bene then founde And that you all the Curats full Priests in England are by the lawe of your Church bound to administer the Communion at Easter peruse your Por◅uis or seruice-booke better That you haue the marke of the Beast that in the foreheade is manifest in that the Arch-bishops BB s. are proued that Antichris◅ that Beast you stand a waged Minister vnder th◅m by their licence in their kingdome That you vvorship the Beast his Image is as manifest in that you administer by the constitutions decrees of their deuices seruice-booke or liturgie which is set vp in al your Churches vnto by which you burne your incense ioyne applie your Doctrines preachings els could you stand no minister in their market Thus may you see all your lyes retourned home to their resting place to the land of Shinar euen your owne bozome frō whence they proceeded thus may you see your self taken ensnared euē in eu◅ry word that hath come out of your mouth thus may you s◅e the furder and more you striue against the truth the furder and faster you entoyle
Prophets yet you will not say that they were not ordinary Magistrates GRE. Euery Prophet was not a Minister of the teÌ„ple in the priests office COOP. SPER. The Prophetts office vvas a ministeriall office BAR. None but Leuites might bâ—… Ministers of the Tabernacle buâ—… ther were manie Prophetts which were not of the tribe of Leui. But what is this to our purpose was not MOSES IOSEPH theis others ciuile Magistrates M r. COOPER will you confesse your error COOP. They were no ordinarie Magistrates BAR. Yt is euident they were ciuile Magistrats ordinary excellent magistrats according to the reuealed will of GOD. But you will yâ—…ild vnto no truth but cauil perueâ—…slie against the euident Scriptures Amongst mich coÌ„fused speach that passed betwixt M r. SPERIN me HENRY BARROVV after that our conference was broken vp in following his last assertion That he held not himself a Minister by tâ—…e Bishops Ordination vntill he had the â—…pprobation of the people He first coÌ„fessed the BB s. ordinatioÌ„ to be a ciuile constitution Then that the Bishops by the Princes Commandement may ordeyne Ministers by their sole authority Because Timoâ—…hi Tiâ—…us did ordenie Elders alone When it was alleadged that Timothi Titus did ordeine them according to the Apostles constitutions and as the Apostles themselues vsed to do which alwaies was by the free election of the flocke 1. Cor. 4. 17. Act. 1â—… 23. he said that Timothi Titus as also the Apostles wâ—…re Ministers alone without the peoples electioÌ„ And that the world 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 14. 23. had relation vnto the Apostles that liâ—…ed vp their hands before they laid them on and not vnto the people that lifted vp their â—…andes to signifie their approbation in the election He said that if â—…o bâ—… this Act. 14. were to be vnderstood of the peoples election yâ—…t theâ—… were no morâ—… places to proue that the 〈◊〉 ought to chuse their Ministers Being demaunded what he thought of Acts. 1. Acts. 6. of 1. Timoâ—… 3. Titus 1. he said that Acts. 6. was but of Deacons onlie and as for the other places they proued not that the people might chuse their Elders Being demauÌ„ded who then were to make choise probation of the Elders he said that Timothi Titus in those chapters Being asked who now was to succeed Timothi Tiâ—…us seing they had lest no heires apparaÌ„t behind them he said the BB s. were to chuse ordeine them who now being old and able to take no more paynes were to gouerne ouer manie Churches as they did Being asked of 1. Timoth. 3. vers 10. who was to chuse and make probatioÌ„ there he confessed that the Church being asked whether that rule of probation belonged not also were spoken of Elders in like maner he said no. but onlie of Deacons being asked if the woâ—…d hosâ—…utos in the 8. verse had not relation vnto the â—…ame chusers and gaue not now rules vnto them concerning Deacons also And how he could by that chapter make anie distinction or shew whie the former rules â—…oÌ„cerning the chusing of Elders should not aswell belong vnto the Church as theis concerning Deacons or whie if the former belonged vnto Timothi theis also should not belong vnto Timothiâ—… he answeared still that the Church was to chuse Deacons but not Elders In furder discourse of theis rules for the gifts maners rules of the conuersatioÌ„ life of theis Elders which were such as could be knowne vnto examined by none but by the church where they liued which shewed that theis rules of their Election were giuen â—…nto the Church wherin Timothie was rather to help instruct the Church then anie way to plucke away the power authoritie interest of the church he answeared that Timothi could onlie best try the gifts learning of theis Ministers and therfore the choise approbation were giuen to him onlie Being demâ—…unded whether ther were not manie rules concerning sondrie christian vertues of manners conuersation towards all men of the gouerning of themselues of their wiues children families which belonged were Common to the teaching and gouerninge Elders which the Church wheâ—… they liâ—…ed could only best iudge He said that 1. Timothi 3. Titus 1. were onlie wriâ—…ten vnderstood of Pâ—…stors Teachers because yt is ther said a Bâ—…hop must bâ—… didacticos which is onlie peâ—…ulier vnto the Pastor Teacher Neither would he yeild though yt were shewed him that the name care of Elders were common vnto all aswell the gouerning as teaching Elders that most of the rules accorded vnto them indifferently Acts â—…0 Furder that he could shew no â—…ther rules iâ—… the Testament of CHRIST for the election of the gouerning Elders then there Wherupon he fell into this grosse opinioÌ„ also That those Elders Deâ—…cons were one office Not vnderstaÌ„ding Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Phil. 1. 1. Retorning againe vnto the BB s. being demauÌ„ded by what warraÌ„t they may vsurpe this inordinate power ouer all the churches In processe of speach he was driueÌ„ to acknowledge yt onlie to be by the Princes authoritie not by the Testament of CHRIST so held them to be meerly ciuile Being demaunded what theÌ„â—…e thought of their ministerie SacrameÌ„ts which they deliuered he awhile denying that they medled with the Sacraments or ministrie in th' end being pressed because they in all the Parishes of their diocesses did might at their pleasure preach and deliuer the Sacraments whether the Church Parson would or no yea they will make the Parson follow them with the Cupp booke yea the B. will scilence suspend or remoue what Minister or Parson he list Here M â— SPERIN said that the Bishop did not neither should administer anie Sacraments in his Pâ—…rish Thus vvith one breath he affirming and denying grauâ—…ting and retracting I â—…old him that I vvould not from hencefourth 〈◊〉 more reason or Confâ—…r vvith him vntill he brought a better Conscience vvith him To coÌ„clude seing he neither vnderstood the Scriptures wherof he so bouldlie affirmed or denied seing he vnderstood not the verie first Doctrines beginnings of CHRIST as the Doctrines of laying on of hands of Election ordination c. neither yet knewe so mich as the offices that belonged to the Church of CHRIST he was altogeather vnworthie vnfit to be a teacher or exercise anie gouernment in the Church of CHRIST Saying that God would er long shew who were fitt Ministers to drawe neere vnto him He said vnto me that I medled which more then I needed and that I did but take a wolf by the eares I said that he abused and vnderstood not that Prouerbe also that I did not immiscere alienae liti That yt was a matter of mine owne saluation that I stood for in refusing all subiection or CoÌ„munion with ANTICHRIST his detestable enormities that euerie true Christian ought to
is an instruction of others so that yt cannot be called the Lords prayâ—…r BARTLET But this troubleth vs that you hold yt not lawfull to say oueâ—… those wordes in prayer c. GREN. You see that we denie no man to vse the verie wordes all oâ—… anie part of them in prayer by explication or application according to our present occasions as anie other Scripture COOP. What is the meaning of that explication or application GREN. Explication application is meant thus as when I desire that the Pope such Ministers of poperie might be suppressed I say Do this Lord for th'aduancement of thy kingdome Let thy Kingdome come c. And without this explication or application to say ouer the vvhole vvordes conteyning all things that can be praid were but abuse of that forme of prayer seing they that so praye cannot vnderstand what he that is the moâ—…th of all asketh for we cannot pray for all thing at once but that which is within the compasse of our faith otherwise yt is but babling COOP. For the whole Church yt may be said ouer as a praier GREN. All praier must be of faith for such things as are within our knowledge and as we knowe the Church to be in present neede of and those things to be particularly craued at GODS hand els we do but babble as the papists do COOP. I graÌ„t that al our praiers ought to be of faith expressing our present necessities Yet ought we euerie day to say ouer the Lords praier for the whole Church GREN. This is popish Doctrine such praier were superstitious babling c. The righteous meâ—… they shall iudge them after the maner of 〈◊〉 and after the maner of murtherers for they are harlots and bloâ—…d is in thier bâ—…nds Ezek. 23. 45. Before we can iudge the false Church it is expedient that we discerne the true Church which is thus described in the scriptures THe true planted and rightlie established Church of CHRIST is a companie of Faithfull people seperated from the vnbeleuers and heathen of the land gathered in the name of CHRIST whome they truelie worship and redily obey as thier only King Priest and Prophet ioyned together as members of one bodie ordered and gouerned by such officers and lawes as CHRIST in his last will and Testament hath therevnto ordeyned all and each one of them standing in and for thier ChristiaÌ„ libertie to practise whatsoener God hath coÌ„maunded reuealed vnto them in his holie word within the limites of their callings executing the lordes iudgements against all trangressió and disobedience which ariseth among them and cutting it off accordinglie by the power which thier lord and King CHRIST IESVS hath comitted vnto them Now who so shall measure thies parish assemblies as they generally stand in England by this rule shall euidently finde them in euerie point so transgressing and defectiue as he that hath eyes to see or but a will to search cannot be deceaued or mistake these parish Churches for the true churches of Christ. Thies parishes consisting of a company of prophane ignorant people gathered by the sounde of a Bell in the name of Antichrist worshipping God after a false Idolatrous maner denying all obedience vnto CHRIST in his 3. offices as thier only King Priest and Prophet lyuing in disorder among themselues standing in confusion being disordered and ouerruled by such lawes officers as the Pope left and not as CHRIST left standing in bondage to the Romiâ—…h courts cannons hauing no power to execute the lordes iudgements or to redresse the least sinne or transgression amongst them-selues but are driuen to the Comissaries Courts and so cast out SATAN by the power of SATAN 1. Thier Churches consiste not of a company of faithfull people but of a multitude of prophane people Therefore they are not the true Church 2. They haue made no seperation from the heathen of the land but all are receiued reteyned in the bozome of thier Churches Therefore c. 3. They are not gathered in the name of Christ but in the name of Antichrist whom they obey as shall afterward appeare Therefor c. 4. They worship not God truelie but after a false and Idolatrous maner as witnesseth thier popish leiturgie thier stinted booke of â—…hier comon prayer Therfore c. â—… They receiue not nor obey not Christ as thier King Priest Prophet Therefore c. Not as thier King reiecting his gouernment and receiuing â—…tanding vuder the Antichristâ—…a yoake of thier popiâ—…h gouernment Not as thier Priest sacraligiously prophaning his name with â—…hier Idolatrie prostituting his blood and making him a priest â—…nd sacrifice to Infidells and the most wicked offenders Not as thier Prophet giuing no obedience to his worde vsing 〈◊〉 as a mantill to couer thier sinne rather then as a rule whereby 〈◊〉 direct thier liues not seeking a true ministrie but mainteyâ—…ing a false of which sorte the wholl ministrie of the land is â—…hich are permitted to teach in thier publike places to whome â—…ey giue eare Thier people are not kint togeather as members each of other in one congregation but both roue and goe assemble departe at thier pleasure when they will whether they will as they will themselues As also liue in continuall disorder 7 Thies parishes are not ordered and gouerned by such officers as Christ hath appointed to his Church They haue no true Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons Releeuers But insteade of thies they remaine most seruilely sâ—…biect to the Antichristian gouernmeÌ„t of thier popish Arch-bishops Bishops Chauncellors Archdeacons Deâ—…nes Commissaries Doctors Proctors Aduocats Notaries Regesters Purseuants Cursetors Sumners c. And from the Apostoliâ—…all seat of the Biâ—…hops they receue as AntechristiaÌ„ false a ministrie as thier 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hirelings lecturers mercenarie preachers c. which togeither with this people stand bounde and subiect to thies Bishops and thier popish courts of high commission of faculties of Archâ—…es of prerogatiue of delegaâ—…s of thier CoÌ„missaries c. Therefore c. 8 Thiâ—…s assemblies are not ruled by th'olde and newe Testament but by the Cannons Iniunctions and decrees of thiâ—…s Antichristian and popish courts Therefore c. 9 Thies people stand not in and for thier Christian lybertie but all of them remaine in bondage to thies Aegyptian and Babilonish yoakes yeilding obedience vnto thies courts and thier Cannons Therâ—…fore c. 10 Thies assemblies haue not the power which Christ hath gâ—…uen vnto his Church vnto the worlds end and all the powers in earth and hell cannot take from them viz. to binde loose and to refoâ—…me things that are amisse but are driuen to the Comissary Courts Therfore c. 11 Thies asseÌ„blies cast out Satan by the power of Satan namely by thies Impes of Antichrist the Bishops Commissaryes and priests Therefore they are not for all thâ—…er reasons seuerall ioâ—…ned cannot be held in anie Christian iudgement the true Churches of Christ. Infinite were the reasons which from thies seuerall heades as likewise from thier particuler transgressions defaults might be drawne But the beâ—… Argument to confute and cut downe all this trumprie at once is according to the commandements of God to perserue our bodies and soules free from thies abhominations by a speedie seperation and withdrawing our selues from amongst them and to confute their lâ—…st and only Argument whereby they vpholde their ruinous kingdome namely their penall lawe by Christian patience and an vpright godlie life Herâ—… is the patience of the saints here are they that kepe the coÌ„maundements of God and the faith of Iesus Reuel 14. 12. He that ouercometh shalbe clothed in vvhite aray and I vvill not put out his name out of the booke of life but I vvill confesse â—…is name before my father and before his Angells Reuel 3. 5. THESE Arguments were more then a yeare an halfe since deliuered to Mr. CARTVVRIGHT M r. TRAVERS M r. CHARKE and M r. FLOYDE which still remaine vpon them vnanswered FINIS Lyes 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10 11 12 13 14 2. Scriptures in steade of Lyes Rom. 18. 1 Rom. 12. 6. 7. 8. 1. Cor. 12. entier Mat. 20. 25 26. Luke 12. 14 Act. 20. 29 Mat. 18. 17. Danyâ—…l 11. 36. c. 2. Thes. 2. 4. Iohn 3. 29. Cam 8. 12. Iohn 13. 13. 1. Pâ—…t 5. 4. 1. Cor. 8. 6. Reu. 13. 1. Reu. 1. 1â—… c. Iames 5. 12. Psal. 74. Dan. 7. 24. Reu. 9. Gal. 1. 6. 7. 8. Mat. 15. 9. 1. Ioh. 4. 3. Mat. 24. 15 Reuel 13. 17. 3. 4. 5. 6. 8. 9. 10. Iude. 11. 2. Peâ—… â—… 15 1. Tim. 6. 5. Iohn 10. 12. 13. 〈◊〉 â—… 14. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. Reu. 16. â—…0 Reu. 19. 2â—… 1. 2. 3. 4. â—… 6. 7. 8. 1. 2. 3. 5. 6. 1 â—…ere 31. 34. Act. 10. 43 Act. 15. 9. â—… Cor. 1. 2. 2 Isay. 65. 11 12. Leu. 20. 24 Iere. 15. 19. Ezâ—…k 16. 25 Eze. 23. 44 Iâ—…h 15. 1. 9. 2 Cor. 6. 14 3 Isay. 11. 10 12. Iohâ—… 12. 32 Mat. 18. 20 1 Pet. 2. 4. 5 4 Deuâ—… 5. 8. 1 Cor. 10. 28 Reuel 21. 8 5 Deut. 18. 15 Isay. 42. 1. Mat. 17. 5. Act. 3. 22. â—… Io. 4. 3. Mal. 1. 6. Luk. 19. 27 Iohn 3. 3 Ezek. 16 17. 19. and 44. 7. Lam. 1. 10. Deâ—…t 13. 3. Mat 7. 15 and 15. 14. Rom. 16. 17 2. Tim. 3. 5. 2 Iohn 10. Iere. 23. 29 6 1 Cor. 12. 12 1 Pet. 2. 4. 5 Rom. 12. 5 7 Rom. 12. 8. Ephes. 4. 11. Psal. 2. 2. 3. Lâ—…k 19. 14. 8 1 Tim. 6 13 14. Ephes. 4. 11 12. 1 Cor. 14. 37 Heb. 12. 28. 9 Ioâ—…n 8. 36. Gal. 4. 26 1. Pet. 2. 9. 10 Psal. 14 9. 9 Isay. 45. 17. Maâ—… 18. 17. Luk 10. 19 1. Coâ—… 5. 4. 2 Cor. 10. 4 5. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 12. 25.