open wicked that communicate with them in the same and that the couenant of God is in no wise thereby disanulled I alleaged first the auncient Church for example vnder the conduct of Moses in the wildernes in which there were heapes of wicked rebels and so in the time of Iesay Ieremie and other of the Prophets whose complaints are grieuous for it is manifest that few godly ones among swarmes of wicked did worship together in the Temple Here Master Barrow your cauiles are more then slender first that our Churches were neuer true Churches and therefore no comparison betwéene ours and them Touching this I haue spoken before Then next you say that in y◠times of wicked Kings when Idolatry was set vp in Iuda the godly did not communicate with the wicked which is most true but the wicked did Communicate with the godly in Gods true worship in the dayes of godly Kings And for the time of Moses you say those wicked rebels were of the common wealth but not of the Church and would haue me proue that they were admitted to the Tabernacle or publick worship If they were not of the Church still in outward account how were their children all receiued Or where reade you of any family among them which was of the common wealth and not of the Church There is no shew of such a matter Againe Saint Paule 1. Cor. 10. sheweth that they did all communicate in the Sacraments They did all eate the same spirituall meate and drunke◠the same spirituall drunke What can be more clere then this If men would not wickedly cauile against the holy Ghost Then next for the time that our Sauiour liued vpon the earth in what miserable estate was the Church The most of the teachers very corrupt both in doctrine and maners Very few of the people did in déed feare God and yet came all on heapes to the Temple together with the godly Vnto this you answer that at the byrth of our Sauiour and vnto such time as they opposed themselues against him things were in meetly good case Would any man that were not past all care what he saith make such an answer Did those grieuous sects of the Scribes and Pharisies rise of a suddaine Or did the high Priest by due course come to the office Or were the open wicked separated where such wicked men bare sway And if they had not of some long time before brought in their owne traditions how could they haue called thē the traditions of their Fathers Math. 15 Mark 7. And when the Pharisies and Saduces the Priests Elders reiected and withstood our Sauiour they you say then ceased to be the visible Church and that our Sauiour did separate himselfe and his Disciples from them What should one say vnto you Master Barrow are you euen bent to gainsay the manifest word of Christ The Scribes and Pharisies did sit in Moses chaire Matth. 23. Was Moses Chaire out of the visible Church And what can be more plaine then that our Sauiour willeth the people to heare them For otherwise how should he commaunde them to obserue and doo all things which they should say but after their workes hée would not haue them doo At this you set vp your throate and crie out What execrable blasphemie and horrible heresies doth this wretched man runne into c. Doth he not hereby make our Sauiour Christ guiltie of the open breach of Gods lawes and the destruction of all the people Indeed that were most horrible and damnable blasphemie and he should be a most vile and wretched man that should make our Sauiour guiltie of the breach of any lawe of God And if you had but the true knowledge of some godly childe of foureteene yeres of age you should plainly see that our Sauiour did command them indeed to heare the Scribes and Pharisies expounding the lawe and the Prophets and that therein he is not guilty at all of the open breach of Gods lawes but indeed if he therein committed any offence it was but agaynst the principles of Donatisme and Annabaptisme which Satan vnder the shewe of an Angell of light hath bewitched men withall and which you haue setled in your minde in stead of Gods lawes For would you make vs beléeue that the Pharisies and Doctors of the lawe were euen of a suddaine become naught Christ himselfe when he was twelue yeares old sate among them in the Temple did heare them and propound questions vnto them Luk. 2. And when hee preached his custome was to goe into the Synagog vppon the Sabboth and to reade and expound the Scriptures Luk. 4 But let vs see what you alleage to prooue that he did not meane that men should heare them You demaunde if God doo not in all places where he commandeth to heare true Prophets forbid to heare false Prophets What then Master Barrow how blinde are you Do you not know that our Sauiour by mentioning their sitting in Moses Chayre doth bind the auditors to receiue their doctrine so farre as it was the true doctrine of Moses and the Prophets Hee doth heare the false Prophet which heareth and receiueth false doctrine So farre as the Pharisies set foorth the truth so farre they were to bee heard and their Doctrine as our Sauiour willeth was to bee followed But men were to take heede of their Leuine that is of their false doctrine and humane traditions Our Sauiour doth not at all approoue their open wickednes when hee willeth them to follow that true Doctrine which they should deliuer out of Moses and not to follow their workes The Priests and teachers ought indeede to be holy but it hath fallen out farre otherwise and that many times in Gods Church And now if it were an abuse that some of these Scribes and Pharisies which did teach were not Leuites but of some other Tribe as Paul was of Beniamin yet there were greater abuses about the high Priest the rest and begun long before that time yet the whole Church and our sauiour himself so long as he did liue as a priuate man frequented the Temple and publike worship and heard them expound the Scriptures Therefore Master Barrow albeit you exclaime in this sorte these blasphemies doth this wicked man publish his ordinarie and all the Cleargie in England suffer them to passe in print yet neither you nor all the Donatists and Annabaptists vnder heauen shall euer be able with all your shifts to wring this place from vs which indeede ouerturneth all the chiefe grounds and principles of your sect Be ashamed therefore to oppose your selues so wickedly against the cleare doctrine of Christ and cease to imagine absurdities which are but from your blind mistaking Agayne we see that our Sauiour healing a man that had the Leprosie commaunded him saying goe shew thy selfe vnto the Priest and offer that gift which Moses hath commaunded for a testimony vnto them Math. 8. 4. Also he sendeth ten Leapers at once to shew
hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced It is out of all doubt that men which erre may â—e conuinced by any particular persons whatsoeuer for it is the power and light of Gods word onely which conuinceth but that which maketh men to be cast forth as heathen for obstinacie when they are conuinced is not as I haue shewed obstinacie agaynst pryuate admonitions but the despising the iudgement and power of the Church when she hath conuinced and reproued So that your passage is here agayne stopped and ye are cut off but yet I will follow ye in this yeelding this scope to see when or who they be of particular persons which haue duely conuinced the Church of England and al her assemblies of such errors First for the martyrs in our Church yee haue set them vpon the shore safely landed out of all danger of wilfull obstinacie for pag. 181. thus ye write These godly martyrs so lately escaped out of the smoakie furnace of the popish Church coulde not so clerely discerne and sodainely enter into the heauenly and beautifull order of a true established Church And those godly men being so vnexpert and vnexercised in his heauenly worke neuer hauing long liued in seen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church vpon the earth of so many hundreth yeares neuer since the generall defection of Antichrist no meruaile I say if they erred in setting vp the frame But what then should we persist in their errors especially should we reiect the true patterne of Christs Testament c. Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow in which the reader may see that ye haue as I say landed those godly men out of all daungers which set vp the frame of our Church because they did as you say nay they could see no better But our Church now can not be excused because she hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought Indéede I am of this minde to answere your wordes as they lye that right excellent men come short in some things about the ordering of Gods Church and especially at the beginning because time is a teacher But those men were not so blinde as you make them or so vnexpert in the heauenly worke Many of them liued long after they came out of popery They did read the scriptures both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement and all the auncient histories of the Church and in my iudgement might haue bâ—en able in those dayes after twenty years separatioÌ„ froÌ„ popery to see as much as some in these dayes that haue béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes Agayne I am of this mind that when any error in the Church appeareth it ought if it can bee brought to passe to be reformed And that they doo greeuously sinne which reiect the truth agaynst their knowledge and conscience to the dammage of Gods people but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced We must see who they bee that haue layd this patterne which ye speake of before her which was not layd before those blessed martyrs and conuinced here let vs come to the matter In some Ceremonies and in the manner of gouernment our Church doth differ from other Churches Those Churches indéede haue shewed their reasons why they vse not such ceremonies and gouernment but yet they condemne not our Church for not being perswaded by them for they do know that in some matters of controuersie it falleth out often that men may thinke they haue truth and be deceiued also that the truth may be shewed and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conscience vnto whom it is shewed This is your great ignorance Master Barrow which imagine that so soone as a truth is shewed in any matter the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conscience There were thousands in the Church of Ierusalem Act. 21. which erred groslie about the retayning the ceremoniall law and the holy Apostles were driuen to beare with them when they could not perswade them from it and that many yeares And who can conuince errors like the blessed Apostles And you must consider here further that euen those marryrs in our Church whom you so fully cleare had the same paterne layd before them then which our Church hath had layd before her since for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vsed at Geneua and in some other places and they did not onely reade their writings which shewed the reasons for the same but also some of them as Bishop Hooper and Archdeacon Philpot were trauailers euen to that ende and purpose and liued in some did see if not al yee some number of the reformed Churches beyond the seas Moreouer the rest of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches as Peter Martyr Bucer Fagius Alasco and others Howe ignorantly then and how falsely Master Barrow doo ye affirme that those godly martyrs had neuer liued in seene nor heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church If those martyrs had the very same patterne layd before them which hath béene layd since before our Church and were not conuinced Peradunture you will say it was nothing so fully and so clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church Then if I demaund here who they be that haue more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church and thus conuinced her whether your selues alone or partly your selues and partly others I suppose yee will take it but in parte vnto your selues let vs then begin with these other and then come to you The Church of England at the first as you coÌ„fesse set vp the frame as they were perswaded in conscience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word Since that there hath risen controuersie at home about some Ceremonies and obseruations and about the gouernement Reasons and allegations haue beene brought to shew that there be hurtfull things amisse in both and many are perswaded But now the visible Church of England the prince and all those which excercise the chiefe power therein haue stood and doe stand resolute that the ceremonies and obseruations are agreeable to Gods worde or at the least not contrary but tollerable and that gouernement is such as is by Gods word most fit and profitable for our Church They stand vpon their reasons and allegations for this And many thousands in the land both men and women which professe the Gospel and fayth of Christ either know not what the things in controuersie or if they doe knowe them yet are perswaded that our worship and gouernment are right Tell me then M. Barrow seeing ye confesse the martyrs were not conuinced how you know for certainetie that all these are conuinced in their conscience because matters haue béen more fully opened and so continue wilfully obstinate against the knowen truth Hath God giuen
vpon ye to abandon and forsake as vtterly separated from the faith and from the Communion of Christ all the assemblies of the Church of England and all the particular members of the same theÌ„ a thicke couering of darkenes which the bright countenance of the great Iudge will pearce through and scatter Ye lye in prison not as Christs poore afflicted seruants but for this grieuous and outragious sinne which no flesh is able to defend or mitigate and for sundry other abuses as shall appear by your bookes I saide that the fearefull end of one Boltom about twentie yeares past would not be forgotten You haue heard as you say pag. 208 that he reuolted and became a conformable member of our Church and so fel into that fearefull estate Seeke better information Master Barrow seeing the example may touch ye for the trueth is he did for the same causes that you doo vtterly coudemne the whole Church of England and was with sundry other separated from it And as it is constantly affirmed he was an elder in their secret Church and ofterward falling into deepe dispaire he could not be recouered but did hang himselfe The matâ—er which pressed him so sore was this that bee had iudged and condemned men better then himselfe Looke yee therefore vnto it in time and seeke repentance before the terror of God breake forth vpon ye and that it be to late for it is euident vnto all that haue any true light in them that your offence herein can haue no excuse or colour beare not your selues vpon other things in your bookes for it shallâ—ppeare that where yee thinke your selues most deuine there Satan hath most deepely deluded yee glorie not of any sufferings vnles yee will haue those also to glorie which are bound in bedliâ—â— Hauing thus finished about wilfull obstinacie we come now to the fower principall accusations which ye bring against our Church The first is that we worship God after a false manner our worship being made of the inuention of man euen of that man of sinne erronious and imposed vpon vs. And here came the booke of common praier into question I did drawe your accusation into a Sillogisme and you accuse me to be so full of legiet dâ— main that ye had neede to looke to my fingers for ye say I haue left out certaine of your words as namely these wilfully obstinate and imposed Touthing these words wilfully obstinate looke Master Barrow in the fourth and fift pages of my booke and see whether I did not answer them where you haue expressely set them downe looke also vpon your own booke now printed and you shall finde that both in the accusation you haue omitted these words wilfully abstinate and also passed by mine answer vnto them Now when these two that is the omitting the words and passing by the answer vnto them doo concurre here is a great shew of legier du maine on your part and yet you would lay it vpon me that haue not giuen the least suspitioÌ„ therof And for the word imposed you say I leaue it out and put c. in the place thereof I doo indeede setdowne c for these words erronious and imposed vpon them but doo I leaue them out in handling the matter Looke in the tenth page and see whether I doo not charge ye with an Annabaptisticall freedome which ye are not able to auoyde for this worde imposed Master Barrow looke vppon them learne modestie and blush if not for conscience yet that these things must now lie open to the view of the world And for the booke of common Praier although the question betwéene vs was not whether there bee faultes in it but whether it â—e as you tearme it a great pregnant Idoll full of heresies blasphemies a bominations whether there be any heresies in it And whether the best part of it be none other but a peece of swines flesh an abomination to the Lord Yet you charge me as flying the trial by the word of God when I stand to iustifie by the word of God that in deede there is neither Idolatrie heresie nor blasphemie in it much lesse that it is full of them or the best part an abhomination For in mine answers and defence I doo not vndertake to cleare it of all faults hauing no occasion to meddle in that controuersie but to shew that there are no such faultes but that both the faithfull people of God haue and mayerre in also euen christian gouernours and teachers which are to reforme the church that if any doo see and be perswaded that they be corruptions and faultes yet not of that qualitie or degree as that they may for the same separate themselues from the fellowship of those which art otherwise minded this is the thing which I haue taken vpon mee to defend And if you Master Barrow wil not become a ranke heretick as if it please God you shall not to maintaine this opinion that we may not ioyne in that worship where wee finde any imperfections and errors holden and not reformed why doo you with wonderment crie out that this so large an exception of imperfections is the odde and onely exception that euer you heard of And doo you in very deede Master Barrow thinke that no such exception is to bee made but that where any error doth appeare in the worship a man is to separate himselfe Nay you will say when it is reproued and continued in and not reformed then a man is to forsake that Church as vtterly fallen from the couenant of God For they be obstinate and denie reformation Tell me then what if those that be to reforme be perswaded it is no error What if a great part of the multitude be so perswaded that it is no fault and so bee of diuerse mindes Will you deeme that you haue more skill to conuince them then the Apostles had Or will you refuse to ioyne as the Apostles did ioyne with the Church in Ierusalem that held and continued in a grosse error Doo you not see how by this your doctrine you open the doore as wide vnto all Schismaticks as euer did the Donatists or the Annabaptists seeing there will euer be errors and some that cannot be made to see them Will you not see how you contrarie Saint Paule directly who in whole chapters almost as I haue noted before dooth labour nothing else but to perswade the Christians that held diuers opinions touching some things in Gods worship yet to ioyne together Rom. 14. and 15. what a multitude of words with your accustomed reuilings and slanders haue you here heaped vp But I will deale onely with that which is not answered alreadie You charged our Church with Romish fasts I charged you with falâ—e accusing because the Church of Rome most wickedly against the Crosse of Christ placeth the worship of God and the merite of eternall life in fasting which doctrine our Church vtterly condemneth You labour to shew faultes in
our fasts what is that now to the purpose And so in diuers other things is this the question betweene vs You charge vs with idoll feastes as if wee worshipped Saints and Angels I told you it is a starke lie and so I must affirme our Church vtterly condemning all that most blasphemous doctrine of popery touching the meditation of Saints or Angels here againe you deale but euen as in the former you must not still so boldly slander but proue that the dayes are kept in honour of the Saints and Angels And so for the naming of the Churches I knowe Saint Luke did not in any respect honour Mars and so did not contrarie to that which Dauid professeth saying he would not take the names in his mouth you may see by his example how Dauid is to be vnderstoode not of the very naming but of the naming with some honor for a man may name them either in detestation or as Saint Luke dooth onely to make destinction Then come tithes and oblations here in deede Master Barrow you bid me looke whether this error be not fundamentall being obstinately held and bring for your reason that they which reuiue any part of the ceremoniall lawe are bound to the whole lawe and so are as Paule saith to the Galathians abolished from Christ Truely Master Barrow the more I reade of your writings the more I pittie your blindnes I could not haue beene perswaded that you were so exceeding ignorant taking vpon you to controule all Churches and farre to excell all the most learned deuines neither could it enter into my thought that any would so boldly abuse the holy Scriptures to seduce and subuert the mindes of simple men I doo here also intreate the reader to be atteâ—tiue a little and to see vpon what foundation you doo builde a great part of your dooings For here to proue the paying of tithes an error fundamentall and vtterly to separate from Christ being obstinately held you alleage the words of Saint Paule Galath 5. I testifie againe vnto euery man which is circuÌ„cised that he is deptor to keepe the whole lawe yee are abolished from Christ c. Let me first aske ye then were the fathers which were circumcised in the time of yâ— law abolished from Christ and faâ—â—en from grace You will say no for circumcision was a seale of the righteousnes of faith Rom. 4. Then it must needes be graunted that Saint Paule doth not speak here of circumcisioÌ„ in the right vse for which God did ordeine it for so it was not coÌ„trary vnto Christ albeit the retaining of it after Christ come was an error Also let me aske ye further doo you thinke that Saint Paule was contrarie to himselfe when he circumcised Timothie Acts 16. ver 3. Or after that when he would with those which had a vow be purified and offer an oblation according to the lawe Act. 21. 26. will you say that Saint Paule and Timothie became deptors to keepe the whole lawe Or that they were abolished from Christ It is horror to admit any thought that way or once to make doubt of such a matter Neither would Iames and the other Apostles haue suffered or tolerated the Church in Ierusalem in that which dooth abolish from Christ Whereupon it followeth of necessity that Saint Paule here to the Galathians dooth not speake simply of the ceremonie of circumcision but as it was vrged with the doctrine of the false Apostles which was this that circumcision was a necessary part of Gods worship and that men could not bee saued vnles they were circumcised for so did the false Apostles vrge it as ye may see Act. 15. 1. placing righteousnes and the merite of eternalllife in it for against that Saint Paule speaketh here to the Galathians saying as many as are iustified by the lawe are abolished from Christ fallenfrom grace Here is the thing then that the false Apostles did ioyne the law and Christ together for iustification and Saint Paule testifieth and denounceth that he which is circumcised with such a minde as to be iustified in part thereby hée is debtor to kéepe the whole law which is not possible for any flesh and therefore he shall stand vnder the curse Moreouer he is abolished from Christ and fallen from grace because the iustification by grace and the iustification by the law are so contrarie that they cannot be ioyned together he that will holde any thing of the one must forgoe the other This being the thing which Saint Paule speaketh of the Galathians and not the very ceremonies which both he and Timothie did sometime obserue nor yet the error of the Church of Ierusalem which was not to place the worship of God and righteousnesse in them which the holy Apostles would neuer haue borne withall seeing it ouerthroweth the faith of Christ marke well Master Barrowe or if you will be wilfull let others marke how foolishly and yet with what furious terror ye thunder out the abolishing from Chrst for paying tithes and for the obseruation of some ceremonies in which if there be a fault it is so farre from that which the falfe Apostles went about to seduce the Galathians in that it commeth short of the error of the Church of Ierusalem For the Church of England as all men may sée dooth condemne fully and absolutely not onely that doctrine of the false Apostles and of the Church of Rome touching iustification or merite of words but also teacheth the whole law of ceremonies was to cease now Christ being come Cease therefore Master Barrow this foolish rage and labour not to seduce the people deceiuing and being deceiued as the blessed Apostle speaketh Ye obserue dayes and times months and yeares saith Saint Paule to the Galathians I am afraide of ye least I haue laboured among ye in vaine If ye be circumcised Christ shall profit ye nothing The Church of England say you obserueth dayes and times as Easter Whitsonday c. and payethtithes and obserueth other ceremonies therefore Christ can profit yee nothing ye are abolished from Christ ye are fallen from the couenant of grace in as much as ye obstinately holde and continue in them Is it not much to bee lamented that after so many yeares preaching of the Gospell much people should lie open to bee fpoyled by such poore seely stuffe as this and bee led away by such more then sottish ignorance Cannot men sée that the whoâ—e matter lieth in the diuers endes of obseruation The false Apostls the Church in Ierusalem Paul and Timothy doo obserue the selfe same things that is Circumcision and other ceremonies of the lawe The false Apostles are abolished from Christ as they vrge and obserue them The Church of Ierusalem is not abolished from Christ but yet erreth grosely Saint Paul and Timothie sinne not at all thereby What is the reason of this difference but that as ye may see the false Apostles obserued and vrged the ceremonies as meritorious for iustification and
therefore the Epistle to the Galathians is spent in declaring the righteousnes by fayth and ouerthrowing the righteousnes by the law The Church in Ierusalem obserued the ceremonies not placing righteousnes in them but to the end that God had ordayned them to shadow out heauenly things being ignorant in this that they were ordayned but vnto the time of correction as the holy Ghost speaketh Hebr. 9. And therfore in that Epistle to the Hebrues there is no charging or blaming of them touching the matter of iustification but onely a reducing of them from that fore sayd error in which they did stick â—â— long When Saint Paule speaketh of obseruing the ceremonies which was but at sometimes as occasion fell out 〈◊〉 so farre from deeming it a fault that hee reckoneth it among his vertues and sayth to those that are vnder the lawe I became as if I were vnder the law that I might win those that are vnder the law 1. Cor. 9. The Synagogue of Antichrist in more haynous and detestable manner then the false Apostles against the Crosse of Christ euen against the righteousnes by fayth in his blood obserue dayes and times and a number of ceremonies of their owne inuention by which they seeke remission of 〈…〉 and the merite of eternalllife Our Church doth renounce and accurse all such doctrine neither doe we maintaine any Iudaisme And touching the paying of tithes that I may conclude this poynt if I say there might bee somewhat morall in it though it were annexed to the Lâ—uiticall Priesthood I doe not see how you shall be able to disprooue the same In the visitation of the sick there is a forme of absolution set downe Thus you Master Barrow write agaynst it Let the Reader vnderstand that nothing can be more popish and blasphemousthen it is wherein a sacrilegious priest taketh vpon him by the authoritie committed vnto him to absolue the sick from all his sinnes Hath any mortall man power to forgiue sinnes Or is it not the office of God alone Hath the priest power to forgiue all sinnes such as are not made vnto him what horrible blasphemie is this to him that hath power to forgiue all sinnes to him we may make our prayers and supplications him onely may we worship Hath the greatest minister of the Church any more power to retayne or loose the sinne of the least member then the sayd member hath to binde or loose his sinne Doth not this rule of our Sauiour Christ as well extend vnto him as vnto the least in the Church If thy brother sinne agaynst thee rebuke him and if hee repent forgiue him Luke 17. 3. Hath not the Church power to reprooue and cast out their Pastor if he deserue Is not all this binding and loosing done by the worde of God and not by any power or excellencie of man Hath not the word of God the like power and effect against sinne in the mouth of the least of Gods seruants as in the mouth of the greatest Let this collect then whereby the priest in their leiturgie by the power committed to him absolueth the sick of all his sinnes remaine one witnes among many other of their popery and vntill more come of most high blasphemie Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow Then this absolution you say nothing can be more popish or blasphemous you cry out at it as horrible blasphemie And will haue this collect remaine as one witnes of most high blasphemie If it be so I haue done you great wrong by charging you as false accusers But in very deede while you go about to make the Reader vnderstaÌ„o that nothing can be more popish or blasphemous yea that it is horrible and most high blaspeâ—ie you bewray so darke ignorance and confusion as I think wee may tearme deepe horrible as shal appeare by the reasons you bring But now for this absolution take this by the way that I doo not vndertake to dispute vpon or to iustifie euery circumstance thereof as namely the vndisâ—reet and vnskilfull dealing of some that may practize it but onely deale about the substance of the matter it selfe against which your reasons are brought to prooue it to be popery and blasphemie You aske first Hath any mortall man power to forgiue sinnes or whether it be not Gods office alone Why Master Barrow will you denie that mortall men haue power to forgiue sinnes doth not our Sauiour Christ say vnto his Apostles Whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen and whose sins ye shall retayne they are retayned Ioh. 20. ver 23. Dare you contradict the flat testimonie of the scripture And for your other question it is most certayne and the contrary cannot bee held without blasphemie and sacriledge that God onely hath power and authority to forgiue sinnes if we respect the author of forgiuenes And men doo but in his name and from him as ministers bring the same vnto vs. If wee respect the thing iâ— selfe it is peculiar vnto the most high God but the ministrie is his hand by which he reacheth it foorth vnto vs and therefore they bringing the message and word of reconciliation are adorned with this title that they forgiue and retayne sinnes yet â— is but instrumentall It is most vndoubted that God alone doth begethis Children by the immortall seede of his worde And yet Saint Paul sayth to the Corinthians that he was their Father and that he begat them All this is but ministeriall God is robbed of no honour You demaund whether the priest hath power to forgiue all sinnes such as are not made vnto him I answere that the minister of the Gospel is the minister of reconciliation I meane to bring it and hath power to forgiue all sinnes annexed to his ministrie or rather it is the fruite and effect and power of his ministrie in deliuering the promises You seeme to speake of forgiuing of trespasses which are done against our selues which declareth also your want of skill as namely that you know not what this is whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they that are forgiuen We may make our prayers vnto him worship him only that hath power to forgiue all sinnes This is true if we looke to the author of this grace which is God alone But not when we looke to those which are but ministers and the earthen vessels in which this treasure is brought You aske whether the greatest minister in the Church hathanie more power to retayne or loose the sinne of the least member then the sayd member hath to binde or loose his sinnes And then you bring certaine reasons to prooue that he hath not any more power then the least member Is it not a straunge thing Master Barrow that such geare should come from you will you take away the whole efficacie and power of the ministrie which Christ hath ordayned By the ministers of the Gospell as I sayd before God sendeth the word of reconciliation they be his hand by which he
when you haue a long time taken on you yéeld the whole matter vnto Master Doctor Some For what hath he said more then that it was and is true Baptisme touching the outward washing Doth he euer say that all which had the true sâ—ale had also the inward grace And for warding the blow of flat schisme it is a very weake blow The Romish Antichrist vsurped an vniust power and tyrannie and brought in many most wicked abominations cannot the Churches cast him foorth with his inuentious but they commit Schisme Can any thing be more friuolous Are all seuerall kingdomes tied vnto Rome or shall we be tied to ioyne where there be some remnants of a Church with Idolatrie And concerning the rest your self do in effect now confesse that some part of Christs ministry remaineth in the popery when you say that their Baptisme concerning the outward washing is true Baptisme And moreouer what should be we dispute not but this proueth that the true seale of Gods couenant is giuen to open Idolaters For the seale is the same in it selfe but the Idolater hath not the fruite of it vntill he come to true faith And so your next absurdities fall off themselues séeing the hauing of the true seale that is the outward washing in Baptisme dooth not make the papists true Christians nor proue that Gods couenant of peace and loue dooth belong to the Romish harlot so many among them as come to true faith receiue that vse of the seale All this I say dooth follow vpon your owne confession who build with the one hand and breake down with the other But it passeth all the rest that then Christ must néeds haue diuers seuerall bodies or else he cannot stand an head to thrée so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England and the Church of Geneua Why Master Barrow you wil not deny but that to the elect in the Church of Rome Christ is the head And this is further to be noted that when we speak of a visible Church we speake not of men alone but of Gods ordinances And so touching the holy Sacrament of Baptisme in the Church of Rome and so much of the truth as remaineth Christ is the Author of them and so standeth the head of his own he is not the head of the Apostasie or to the wicked inuentions So then in all Churches Christ is the Author and head of that which is his ordinance and of those which belong vnto him What blasphemies are then hereby allowed And if the Papists haue quite ouerthown the one Sacrament by turning it from a Sacrament into a Sacrifice propitiatory what reason is it therefore to say Baptisme is ouerthrowne We must yet a little further deale about the Church of Rome because you make all our people to be but as heathen without the couenant and not rightly entred to become a visible Church but all receiued in at the sound of her Maiesties trumpet I say our people stood vnder the couenant before as a part of the visible Church and that our soueraigne Quéene did not compell those which before were not vnder the couenaÌ„t to become the church but by her regall power giuen vnto her of God banished the vsurped power of Antichrist abolished Idolatry and compelled her people hauing receaued the seale of the couenant and professing Christ to receiue also the true doctrine This was not to begin a Church but to reforme a Church hereupon it falleth out in question whether the Church of Rome were the visible Church of Christ in time of Idolatry It is vsually said that the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church I said we may rather say to speake more plainely the papacy was in the Church because Antichrist who brought in all the papacy erected his throne in the Church You begin with this Master Barrow and say that I hold it not enough to affirme with the learned deuines that the inuisible Church of God is in the papacy as in all other places of the world because God hath his elect there and in all other places but to be singular I haue inuerted the proposition and say that the papacy is in the Church O Master Barrow it is your bold ignorance as in all other matters Who be those learned diuines that when they say the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church doo meane no more but that there be Gods Elect as in other places of the world If you haue any modesty bring forth some one learned deuine which is of that iudgement I did like rather to say the papacy is in the Church then to say the Church is in the papacie because I sée diuers doo mistake it as though it were onely meant that in the papacy there are Gods Elect and no further that is no outward visible Church in any respect I doo not differ any iot in the spéech from the sense which Master Caluine and others doo giue for when I say the papacy is in the church but the papacy is not the church by the papacy we must néeds vnderstand that vsurped tyranny of the Pope and his Clergy with all their abominable inuentions By the Church we may not vnderstand only Gods Elect but also so much of Gods ordinances as remaine not only in the points of doctrine and publike profession of the name of Christ but also in the holy Baptisme the seale of the couenant which all haue and may so farre be called the visible Church That the papacy should inuade the visible Church remaine in it and not vtterly or quite destroy it I did alleage that Saint Paule saith Antichrist should sit in Gods Temple Now let vs see whether this bée not the meaning of the most learned diuines when they say the Church is in the papacy Master Caluine handleth this point in the fourth booke of his Institutions Chap. 2. section 11. 12. Which booke though it be in our language yet is it little read and studied of our people as the weakenes and readines of many to be seduced by hereticks and Schismaticks dooth euidently declare I will set downe his words for such as haue not the booke But yet as of old time saith Master Caluine among the Iewes there remained certaine peculiar prerogatiues of the Church so doo wee not at this day take from the papists those steppes of the Church which God would haue to remaine among them notwithstanding the dissipation God had once made his couenant with those Iewes that same couenant did continue vpholden by the stablenes of it selfe as it were wrastling against their impietie rather then kept of them Such therefore is the certainty and constancy of Gods goodnes that there remained the couenant of the Lord neither could his faith giuen be made voyde by their vnfaithfulnes neither could circumcision be so prophaned by their impure hands but that it was still the true signe and Sacrament of his couenant Whereupon
the Lord called the Children which were borne vnto them his sonnes Ezech. 16. which nothing at all perteined vnto him but by a speciall blessing So when he hath left his couenant in France Italie Germany Spayne England since these Prouinces haue beene oppressed with the tyrannie of Antichrist yet that his Couenant might remaine inuiolable he first there preserued Baptisme the testimony of his couenant which being consecrate with his owne mouth retaineth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlines of man then furthermore he hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there should other remnants also remaine least the Church should vtterly perish And as oftentimes buildings are so pulled downe that the foundations and ruines remaine so hee hath not suffered his Church to be subuerted by Antichrist euen from the foundation or to be laide euen with the ground howsoeuer to punish mens ingratitude which had despised his word he hath suffered horrible shaking and dissipation to chance but euen after the laying wast hee would haue the building remaine halfe pulled downe Whereas therefore wee will not simplie graunt to the Papists the title of the Church we doo not therefore deny that there bee Churches among them but onely wee contend about the true and lawful ordering of the Church which is required both in the Communion of the holy things which are the signes of the profession also of doctrine most chiefelie Daniel and Paule foretold that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God among vs wee account the Bishop of Rome the Captaine and standerd bearer of that wicked and abominable Kingdome That his seate is placed in the Temple of God thereby is meant that his Kingdome shall be such as may abolish neither the name of Christ nor of the Church Hereby therefore it is manifest that we denie not but that there remaine Churches also vnder his tyrannie but yet such as hee hath prophaned with sacrilegious impietie such as hee hath afflicted with outragious dominion such as he hath corrupted and almost killed with euill and deadly doctrines as it were with poysoned drinkes in which Christ lieth halfe buried the Gospel ouerwhelmed godlines expelled the worship of God almost abolished furthermore in which all things are so confused and out of order that there appeareth the face of Babylon rather then of the holy citie of God Briefelie I say they be Churches in as much as the Lord dooth there merueilouslie preserue the remnants of his people howsoeuer miserably dispersed and scatred and in as much as there remaine some badges or seales of the Church and these especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the diuell nor the wickednes of men can destroy but on the other side because those notes or markes are blotted out which wee ought chiefely to respect in this controuersie I say that euerie one of their assemblies and the whole bodie wanteth the lawfull forme of a Church Thus farre be Master Caluines words tell me now Master Barrow is Master Caluine to be accounted among the learned Diuines Dooth he say the Church is in the papacy that is no more but that the Elect are among them as in other places of the World Looke also what I haue said touching this whole matter which he dooth not here say yea euen from that which is in Ezechiel 16. Where you aske who but this peruerse fellow speaking of me could thus stumble and cauill at those words my sonnes and my daughters c But if it bee not plaine enough which Master Caluine saith in this which I haue recited to proue that you would beare the simple in hand that the learned Diuines are of another minde and yet vnderstand not their minde I will adde a little more out of the same Author In his Epistle 404. thus hee writeth Quòd ecclesiae reliquias manere in papatu dico nō restringo ad electos qui illic dispersi sunt sed ruinas dissipatae ecclesiae illic extare intelligo Ac ne mihilongis rationibus disputandum sit nos pauli autoritate contentos esse decet qui Antichristum in temple deisessurum pronuntiat quamquam hoc rationibus satis validis me probasse puto ecelesiam licet semiruptam imo silubet diruptam ac deformem aliquam tamen manere in papatu In that I say the remnants of the Church remaine in the papacy I doo not restraine it to the Elect which are dispersed there but I meane that the ruines of a dispersed Church are extant among them And that I may not dispute the matter with reasons at large it becommeth vs to be content and satisfied with the authority of Paule which pronounceth that Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God Albeit I suppose I haue proued this with reasons strong enough that there remaineth neuerthelesse some Church in the papacy although halfe broken downe or if you will broken downe and deformed Also Master Beza Epistle 81. page 356. For the remnants of the Church in the papacy is of the same minde affirming that there remaine not onely Gods Elect but also the Sacrament of Baptisme and sundry poynts of sound doctrine Now let vs see what horrible blasphemies you say will followe of this that I say Antichrist should sit in the Church and yet the same remayne still the visible Church so farre foorth as Master Caluines words and Master Bezaes doo import For when you will needes haue it that God hath giuen me vp into a reprobate sense the matter toucheth not me so much as Master Caluine and Beza and many other most worthie men which so expound it Nay if God open your eyes you shall see whether you doo not like Rabsaka reproach the Lord God who hath vttered it by his Apostle The first is this If Antichrist may be sayd to sit raigne and remayne in the Church of God then Christ is not made heire and Lord of all and set as King vpon Mount Sion A worthie collection is it not because God in righteous iudgement for the punishment of those that receiued not the loue of the trueth giueth power vnto Satan and Antichrist to seduce the multitude in the visible Church Christ is not heire of all things nor raigneth as K. vpon Mount Sion Wil you say if the diuell haue a kingdome in the world Christ is not Lord of the whole world Mount Sion may be vsed for the visible Church but most properly for the inuisible which is the Communion of Saints of which are none but the elect Satan and Antichrist are not able to pluck one of these out of his hand he raigneth ouer them and in them Moreouer he raigneth ouer the whole visible Church and ouer the whole world for hee is ascended and filleth all things so that Satan Antichrist and all Tyrants can proceed no further then his will The next is If Antichrist sit in the Church then Christ is either cast out of his house made subiect vnto Antichrist or els deuideth with him Christ
death which is expressely commaunded for I trust Master Barrow ye will not deny Christian Kings to be one part of the seruants of the master of the house Then whereas you reason thus the power of excommunication which is giuen to the Church and which the Church is commaunded to execute may not be ouerthrowne but if Christ will to let the tares grow in the Church he forbiddeth to execute that power and soâ—t is ouerthrowne therefore he doth not speake of open wickednes in the Church but in the world I will reason agaynst your exposition thus The power which God hath giuen vnto the ciuill Magistrates to put murtherers and other wicked malefactors to death is not to be ouerthrowne but if Christ will men to let the wicked ones in the world alone will haue theÌ„ grow to the haruest least in plucking them vp they destroy the wheate hee taketh away that power from the Magistrates Therefore this parable must not bée taken of the good and the bad together in the world And mark how he sayth not let them alone because it belongeth not vnto ye but let them alone least ye pluck vp the wheate What then shall we neither take it of the Church nor of the world because of an absurditie which seemeth to followe on either side Of the world indeed it cannot bee taken as I haue shewed before because he sayth not the world is like but the kingdome of heauen is like but of the Church it is sayd that as the good seede and the bad are sowen and grow together vntill haruest in the mans field so the good and bad men are mixed in the Church so long as it remayneth in the world How then for these words let them alone let them growe vnto the haruest It is plaine if we will auoyd absurdities on both sides that our Sauiour doth not here meddle either with the Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall power but as it is the manner in parables to vtter some sayings which are onely to shew some poynt of doctrine not to be taken stricktly according to the letter As for example when our Sauiour would shew in that place Luk. 16. which is partly a parable that such as cannot be brought to repentance by hearing Moses and the Prophets will not repent if one should rise from the dead to bring in this doctrine the damned soule is sayd to intreate Abraham that hee would send Lazarus vnto his fathers house to warne his brethren least they should come into that place Shall we think that damned soules haue such a care that others may repent and be saued Nay as I sayd it is onely to bring in a doctrine What is the doctrine then which our Sauiour doth bring in by these words let them alone let them grow together vnto the haruest This it is that when the Christian Princes haue done what they can in reforming the Church and put the wicked malefactors to death and when the censures ecclesiasticall bee most diligently and wisely executed yet will there bee heapes of vngodly ones in the Church and that seeing it cannot be auoyded men are not to make Schismes and so to rend vp the wheate but meekly to expect the haruest when the full separation shall be made Be not therefore Master Barrow so absurd as by an imagined absurditie to ouerthrowe the doctrine of a parable so cleerely expressed The next place to prooue that the open wicked shall alwayes be mixed with the good in the Church is the parable of the draw â—et out of the same chapter You say this is graunted to be vnderstood of the planted Church Who are they which graunted this Indeed the Donatists granted this and it is some gentlenes that you will graunt so much For if in this parable the kingdome of heauen be the visible Church which is compared to the net which draweth together good and bad why is not the kingdome of heauen in the former parable also the Church and so the estate therof likened while it is in the field vnto the wheat and the tares growing together You say the euil fishes are not open sinners but hypocrites and so sayd the Donatists And I meruaile you shewe no reason for it seeing the diuell did suggest this friuolous shewe of reason vnto the Donatists that hypocrites are very fitly resembled by fishes in the net vnder the water which the fisher men cannot see vntill the net bee drawne to land This I haue answered in my former booke There is no doubt but that close hypocrites which outwardly appeare holy are one great part of those euill fishes which the net of the Gospell draweth together but to exclude all the rest there is no reason The place in Math. 3. He shall purge his floar and gather the wheate into his barne but hee will burne the chaffe with vnquenchable fire dooth manifestly shewe that as the corne and chaffe for a time lye vppon the floar so the good and the bad lye mingled together in the visible Church Here you make an exposition of your owne and then take on grieuously that Christs Church should be compared to such a floar as the chaffe and the corne lye together And aske what the Church then differeth from the world It is certaine that both the ciuill and ecclesiasticall power ought to bee imployed with all diligence and care that may bee to purge the Church that albeit the floar cannot be cleane rid of the chaffe yet it may bee rid so farre as men are able That is not the question but when these dueties of men haue been neglected and that there he heapes of chaffe in which the graynes of corne doo lye couered whether it bee not still the visible Church It is a most cléere case that in the Church of Israel which at that time was the visible Church there were very great heapes of chaffe and very fewe graynes of good corne in comparison of the whole multitude Iohn Baptist threatneth eternall iudgement vnto those hypocrites wicked and faithlesse people shewing that the place they held in the Church for a time should nothing helpe seeing the Lord will fanne them out like chaffe which for a time lyeth with the corne but defileth not the corne nor cannot turne it into chaffe You thinke you haue great hold that hee speaketh of separating the chaffe from the corne but answere this one question was it not his floar that is his visible Church out of which he would purge the chaffe Doth he make it his floar by purging it or was it his floar before it was purged The words are cléere hee shall purge his floar c. whether the open wicked pollute the holy things of God or the conscience of the faithfull which doo communicate with them I referre the reader to those things which I haue noted betwéene the ancient Churches and the Donatists where euery thing hath been as strongly vrged by those Donatists as you are able or any of your sect Seeing
gouernement by Bishops not such as you set it forth well let vs procéede Here now we must lay open what power the Pope dooth exercise and what power the Bishops in our Church doo exercise to sée if it be the same or the like Also whether the Bishops doo exercise any power but that which Christ hath giuen to his Church to be exercised by men that is either by Bishops or Presbyteries Touching the Pope he hath vsurped power ouer the whole word of God affirming that the holy scriptures haue no authority as they say vnto vs no certainty for the sense no life but as hee doth giue vnto them And for this cause hee doth take vpon him to expound them as he will contrary to the grammer sense Hee doth take vpon him to dispense with all and to abrogate expresse lawes of God And further he taketh vpon him to make lawes of his owne to bind the fayth and conscience of all men euen as the articles of our fayth doo bind or the expresse doctrine of the sacred Scriptures Hee doth vsurp in sundry things of so high nature apperteming peculiarly to God as that he sheweth himselfe as God The power which the Byshops of our Church do exercise is first in examining approâ—uing and ordaining ministers and authorising them to preach the Gospell Secondly it is in this that they are to sée the orders of the Church for the publick administration duly obserued and so they haue power to excommunicate suspend and depriue c. such as shall transgresse either against doctrine order or in manners Touching lawes they haue not power to make any one not euen in things méete indiff rent neither haue they power to abrogate or to take away any one that is made and by the publick authority of our Church established they can giue no commaundements of their owne That Christ hath giuen power to ordaine ministers and to execute the censures Ecclesiasticall you doo not call into question the controuersie is but by whome this power should bee executed whether by Bishops or by Presbyters If there be an error in the execution of it by Bishops or if there be a fault in the execution by Elders this fault or error dooth not destroy the power it selfe nor yet maketh it Antichristian as ruling ouer the faith and conscience I knowe Master Barrow that ye will here take great exception and say that the chiefe thing is yet behind For as ye charge the presbyteries most heynously in that they take vpon them to decree and ordayne Canons and constitutions vnto which they inioyne obedience in the people so the Bishops execute the lawes and Canons which haue been ordeyned by men though not by themselues the matter is all one Is not this to exercise Lordship and dominion ouer mens faith and conscience About this then must be our speciall question whether Christ hath giuen such a power vnto the Church as to make lawes or Cannons in externall matters which wee call things indifferent And whether the vrging men to kéepe them be not to take away Christian libertie and so to rule ouer the faith and conscience I knowe this question is hard to bee discussed to make euery simple man vnderstand the matter You Master Barrow and Master Greenwood are most blind in it I wish the reader to obserue because it is one maine rocke vpon which ye are runne And crye out what ye can that I like a marked seruant of Antichrist like a graceles man that hath his conscience seared with a hot Iron doo change yee wrongfully yet it shall bee euident that by seeking an Annabaptisticall freedome ye do abridge the power of the Christian Magistrate and of the Church To come therefore vnto the matter that which S. Iames sayth must first stand sure namely That there is one lawgiuer which is able to saue and to destroy Iam. 4. vers 12. Hereupon it is most sure that God alone hath Lordship ouer the conscience of man to binde the faith and conscience For looke what God hath by his lawe commaunded to bee done it is good it is holie no King nor the whole Church can make any part of it euill or commaund it not to be done Looke what God hath forbidden to be done that same is euill and vnholy no King nor yet the whole Church can make it good and holy or command it to bee done I say further that the law of God is so absolutely perfect that there is no righteousnes for men but it is therein conteyned neyther is there any vnrighteousnes but it is therein forbidden Wherefore they which take vpon them to make lawes to binde the conscience eyther by abrogating or by adding commit most high and blasphemous sacriledge of which the whole poperie is to be condemued But now there are certayne middle actions and things which we call indifferent because if we simply respect them in themselues or in their owne nature they bee neither good nor euill In these consisteth one part of Christian libertie to vse or not to vse with knowledge and discretion Now if we respect the very nature of these things no Prince or church can change it as to make them to become necessarily good or necessarily euill in themselues to the conscience And therefore touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. vers 21. making the outward indifferent things vncleane to the conscience is to vsurpe an Antichristian power ouer the conscience euen agaynst God Also to make those externall things to be of necessitie to the conscience is to lay a yoake of bondage and agaynst this wee are willed to stand fast in the freedome wherewith Christ hath made vs free Gal 5. vers 1. Hetherto Master Barrow I thinke yée will agree with me But now touching the externall vse of these things either for Princes to make politick lawes to commaund the vse or to restraine the vse of them or for the Church to make Cannons and constitutions to commaund or restrayne the vse as shall serue for order and comelines therein lieth our disagreement and therein ye pleade for your Annabaptisticall freedome and confusion I meane that ataxia or ouerthrowe of all order First ye call it a subtill distinction which Master Caluine vseth of the externall or ciuill Court and the Court of conscience in your discouerie pag. 88. And you say Master Caluine hauing very truely set downe that it is heinous presumption in any mortall man to restrayne or make lawes of such things as the Lord hath left in libertie hee straight way least he should keepe backe ciuill Magistrates from receiuing the Gospell inuenteth a politick distinction betwixt the ciuill court and the court of conscience saying that this outward court respecteth men onely and bindeth not the conscience of the doer the other concerneth matters belonging vnto God and therefore bindeth the conscience Thus hath he both lost and entangled himselfe and vtterly ouerthrowne all his former doctrine pag. 93. In pag. 247. of
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry