one another whence is it that we all conspire to hate condemn and rail against the Catholik Church having as much cause to inveigh against one another and let her alone as to rail against her alone and applaud one another This is a shrewd sign we ar all rebels to that one Church and hav no truth amongst our selvs For one truth is opposit to twenty falshoods and these falshoods however they be contrary to one another that one primary truth still stands against them all Catilin and Cethegus and the other conspiratours against Rome their mother City could fall out one amongst another tho they jointly resisted her and she as indifferently confronted them all Besids these reformers must needs be liars all of them if we may beleeve any of them For as they did most vehemently inveigh against that part of popery wch themselves rejected so did they tooth and nail defend the purity of that portion they still retaind wch by the succeeding reformers was deeply censurd and condemnd And so from the very first to the last they still condemned one another for wt they retaind as the Church of God condemnd them all for wt they rejected Who shall unfold this riddle or tell me in wch reformation the truth lies Surely in non of them if by the mouth of two witnesses a truth may be established for ther is ever the Catholik Church and one reformation against the judgment of any other reformation every sect hath still the Church against her for one and some other sect if not all other reformations besides Ar all thes men sent from God for one and the same thing yet all fail in doing it and al condemnd by one another in the deed Still wt any one of them casts away is popery and what he keeps is the sincere word and will of God tho not only the Church that censurs them all together but even all other reformations say the contrary So that if we put all judgments together ther will result thus much That the Catholik on the one side all sectaries of severall opinions on the other they be all Papists and differ but secundum magis minus So that the Roman is a Catholik Papist and all the rest be heretick Papists but Papists all For every sect is condemnd by his fellowes of some popery and the Church as the source of all And indeed all sects do retain som thing more or les of that religion and faith wch our land received at first from the pape and wtsoever positive doctrin they still keep they had it onginally from him At least they keep all of them the Bible eyther whol or in part wch is the great book of the pope wch he ever sends wth his missioners since he orderd and canonised it to any nations conversion as conformable to the great rule of Christian faith wch is tradition And consequently if the Papist be a child of Antichrist all sectaries are no other so far as they be Christian or have any thing of Christianity amongst them onely wth this difference that the mark of the beast if he be a beast is lesse in som than it is in others but t is in the for heads of all so many as be baptised and beleeve in Christ by his means and missioners and by the Sacraments and precepts they had originally from him VIC The Lord shield us from the fiend of darknesse the pope upon my forehead the Bible the popes and all we Papishes confute him husband some way or other if this be true hee l not fear texts at all LA. S. Harry you have brought things about very strangly Can you think ever to perswade us that we have any thing of popery in us KN. Assuredly you have so much as is not yet clipt of by reformation be it more or les And this discours I have faln upon insensibly to mitigat the strang rancour against Catholik religiō wch people conceiv by contagion of custome and not any true knowledg they have thereof and the pleasing opinion each one fosters of the reformation himself is part of Take the four generall opinions that be now in England the Catholick the Protestant Presbyterian and independent Consid er seriously and you shall find that as they be antecedent in time so still the succeeding is but a deficiencie from the foregoer and the last the greatest negation of the positions laid by the first yet still what he holds positively he hath it from him and the first wch is the Catholik had all his whole positive faith from the Pope as himself professes and our own histories witnesse part whereof was cut of by the Protestant as the Presbyterian after him took away some things wch the Protestant still retaind and the Independent others wch the Presbyterian kept He is very ignorant in history that discerns not by his reading how the Catholik now existent in England retains universally all the points of faith wch were brought hither into England at its conversion from paganisme by S. Austin and other good children of blessed S. Bennet sent hither to that purpose by Pope Gregory eleaven hundred years ago concerning priests altars sacrifices the reall presence merit of good works consecrations pennances purgatory lents pilgrimages popes supremacy and the rest to the least iota of wt they then received Nor hath he any parcell of faith either over or under wt he received then so that the Catholik is a papist in print and a legitimat child of that venerable pastour A thousand years after the Saxes or English-mens conversion and the unanimous profession of the Catholik faith all that while in an unluky ho wt rises Luther who having been himself born and and bred up in the bosome of the Church through the instigation of Satan and his two instruments pride and lust apostatised from the Church and made a reformation as he called it wherunto the worst of people at first adhered altho now both wise and honest minded people go along wth it not so much by their own choise as unfortunate custome This protestancy took away at once almost three parts of the Churches practicall doctrin retaining the speculative Within the compasse of ten years it had run into severall divisions or subreformations in Germany Holland Switzerland and Geneva Upon Harry the eights schism and afterward these people of severall Reformations cam flocking over into England by whos severall directions to pleas all parties was made up that miscellan of the English protestancy by rejection of severall points of the Catholik faith then in our land some according to Luther others according to Calvin Swinglius the rest together wth an establishment of an apish prelacy in stead of the Catholik one wch had beene overthrown for the security of the state and of the fond Church they had then set up the other few remainds of our Catholik faith now wholly dismembred yet standing as the base of this
materiall weight The intrinsecall valiew of some articles may infer more of necessity and obligation to an explicit beleef and practis but the least and smallest points do wth as much right as the greatest exclude a positiv misbeleef I am not bound to know or practis all things of the churches doctrin but I am bound not to disallow condemn or reject any of her traditionall Christianity has been equally handed from age to age unto us He that formally rejects any thing of this as fals doth vertually deny all the rest sith one and the same veracity deliverd all No mans privat reason invented any part of my beleef and therfor no mans reason can reject it Nay the highest points ar oftimes most contingent and consequently the least capable of a proof as Gods incarnation passion and resurrection and if mans conceits be once permitted to intermedle determin of the lesser or greater probability of points and cast away at his pleasur what himself thinks unlikly he will undoutedly go on from one negation to another till all be overthrown It may chance that in discoursing I may say somtime that all the articles of our Catholik faith be taken out of Scriptur wherin they be implicitly contained But in this I do but speak wth the vulgar and according to the capacity of hearers and t is indeed true in this sens for that all Catholik beleef is conformable to those sacred writings But in very truth to speak with wise men as well as we do think and ever shall beleev wth them the Scripturs themselvs those I mean principally wch make up the new Testament were drawn by the rule of our traditionall doctrin explicit faith and not our explicit faith gathered out of them This may appear by part of my former discours wherein I declared that the penning of Scripturs was meer accidentall and casuall and that all our traditionall faith was more ancient than Scriptur and altogether independent of it So that Scriptur and tradition go indeed hand in hand together as a joint rule of faith yet so as that Scriptur gives tradition the right hand as being its elder and judg of it self aswell as as cojudg wth it of all other doctrins For both Gospells and Epistles written in Apostles name were so far approved or rejected by the Church however they came equally armed wth Apostolicall names prefixt before them as they were found consonant or dissonant to the churches tradition For ther were more Gospells written than the four we hav and far more Epistles than thos the church admitted to her cannon And this is the reason why the Apostles themselvs and Disciples met together to try whether the preachings and writings of all their missionaries were punctually conformable to the tradition they had received from wch meeting S. Paul himself though an Apostle not of men neither by man but by Jesus Christ and God the Father Gal. 1.1 Yet would he not be exempted from that meeting After three years saith he I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode wth him fifteen dayes Gal. 1.18 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem wth Barnabas and took Titus wth me also And I went up by revelation and comunicated unto them that Gospell wch I preach among the Gentiles but privatly to them wch wer of reputation least by any means I should run or had run in vain Gal. 2.1.2 By wch I think it may be gathered that the church is above the Scriptur and of greater autority than either Paul or Barnabas or any wtsoever single man and member of the Church sith she judges every ones doctrin to the approbation or rejection of it For a judg is more noble than the thing wch is subject to his censur the rule than the thing examined and ruled by it and to giv an approbation is in that formality more excellent than to receiv it Neither was ever any generall councell cald together to teach the church her doctrin But upon the rising of heresys judging by the rule of their tradition the Prelats in councell confirmd the Catholiks in the way they found them in and declared against hereticall innovations that they might desist from further commotion This rule of tradition found in the hands practis of Christians disperst over the earth left them by their forfathers could not fail so long as it was found universally agreeing in the whole Catholik body wch is animated by the spirit of infallibility especially being strengthened by testimony of Apostolicall writings wch were nothing but a part of the churches tradition coppied out or the fathers that succeeded them or other monuments that were yet remaining amongst them As for example the Christians found an injunction of praying for the dead upon the very wals windows gravstones and monuments of their deceased forfathers commended also unto them both by teachers their living books and by books their dead teachers and all children found their parents in the beleef and practice of it And therfor it was concluded that it could be no other than as it was thē esteemd an article of pure Christianity sith the whol body of Christians then present held it so their forgoers and fathers deliverd it sacred Scriptures sufficiently insinuated it Catholik writings and monuments confirmd and comended it unto them So that Madam that piece of popery you would take from me being a part of this Catholik tradition will be as hardly wrested from me as the Gospell it selfe wch the same tradition has deliverd as a coppy conformable for so much as it is unto it selfe the first and universall rule of faith by wch pape himselfe and all generall councells are guided so subject unto it that they can act nothing against it as may appear by the proceedings of the Catholik church from its very first birth and uprising unto this present day Pope Iohn the 22d. a learned man much given to reading found in many places of the Greek and Latin fathers as also in texts of sacred Scriptur as he conceived that the souls of Christians deceased went released out of purgatory thence into some place of repose on this side heaven and eternall bliss where they expected the consummation of their number that all the Catholik body might at the end of the world enter paradis together This opinion by the multitud of autoritys and arguments appeard unto him so probable that he sent it to some Christian Universitys to have their judgment if that were not indeed Christian beleef But they rose up against it and rejected it as dissonant to tradition For the Pape tho he be Overseer of the whole church yet being but one single man he cannot of himself discern the universality of a tradition so well as the whole Catholik body may do and therfor he never defines faith but with that Body conciliarly assembled and if himself i th interim should light upon an opinion how probable soever it
put both the Byshopricks into one and gave him beath together Wine and wife are to mee as Bath and Wells Let me have beath as the Scotchman said VIC Go your wayes go Wer it not that you cast a glance of your eye now and then upon me when you ar in your pulpet you would be but a dry preacher T is even so Madam LA. Even so be it THIRD DIALOGUE VIC LO I com according as it is written Psa 40.9 Dear Madam good morrow to your Lap. It seemes I am the first to day somewhat earlier than ordinary but so it is written Thou shalt heare my voyce betimes in the morning Psa 5. O Sr Harry wellcom wellcom you could not stay long from us when both the spirit and the bride say Com Rev. 22. I le be the spirit for once especially when I am got up in a morning out of my bed And why not I pray you sith the very ruler of darknes when people are got up for conformities sake transforms himself into an angel of light 2. Cor. 11.14 KN. Health and happines attend my noble Lady this day and ever It pleases my eye Madam to behold the chear of your countenance this morning wch seems to promis to my purposes a good succes LA. I doubt not of good successe both to my wishes and your own if you will but relent a little of that hardnesse and obstinacy is in a manner naturall unto Papists I would not Sr Harry proceed so rigorously as to request you all at once to abjure the whole body of popery but to let fall at first the super fluous parts of it that do hāg looser on and be of least concernment and use and to stand so disposed as to think obstinacy unhandsom in any thing Papists say truely that they are built on a rock I think all their whole church is rock for one may as soon wth his teeth bite off a piece of marble as wrest from them any of their very least opinions so firm tenacious and obstinat ye be all of you Nay to save a whole Kingdom you will relent nothing at all What a masse of money did Harry the eigth spend for six yeares together in Embassadours and agents in Italy France Spain and Germany to procure the testimonys of Universityes and yet he was not able either for love or money although he were a magnanimous noble Prince to purchase so much as the hands or consent of any one University for the lawfulnesse of his affection to his sweet Lady Anne Bullen And the popes Cardinals although they received no small weight of good English gold from our Princely Harry insomuch that they could have wisht he had had his fill of her yet would they not be brought by any means to say he might lawfully do it Your Popes themselvs tho I confes they have been many of them very holy and learned personages yet som of them hav been known to be as bad as the worst and yet even thes have been as Zealous of the integrity of their faith as the greatest Saints and would sooner do ill than say it might be done Simony Pride Gluttony known and acknowledgd sins these some of them would act of their own accord but all the power of earth summond together should not force any of them to abrogat one article of their faith or traditions though it were but the sprinckling of holy water I read not long ago in an authentick story that the nobls and Prelats of England perceiving the resolution rage of K. Harry upon the forementiond affront certified the Pope by a privat Embassadour that if he did not some what relent and condescend to the Kings desires the whole frame of Catholik Religion in England wch already crackt would be utterly overthrown the nobility disgraced monasterys ruind Byshops deposed thousands imprisond and perhaps martyrd and the whole land undon To wch the pope replied frantick man as he was though the whole body of Christs church should be destroyed yea tho heaven and earth should mingle together in its old Chaos of confusion yet would he not declare that lawfull wch in conscience he thought was not so What a crabbed perversnesse was this He was certainly no Gentleman S ◠Harry that would not be perswaded tho heaven and earth should come together to chang his judgment KN. To be obstinat and heady in our own proper opinions is oftimes unseasonabl and unhandsom But the tradition wch the Church preservs is the very depositum of our B. Saviour whether it concern faith or manners practicall or speculativ beleef and no conceptions of privat or human judgments and therfor in al honesty to be preserved entire by the trustee of our Lord who committed it unto his church wth this caution that not one jota or apex therof should be altered And therfore that Pope who would not declare against his conscience although heaven and earth should com together did no more than what his Lord and Maister had said before him Heaven and earth shall pass away my word shall not pass not one jota orapex therof Luc. 21. And it was a doubl madnes in Harry the eigth doing himself evil to expect the church of God should say it was good Nor be there Madam in Faith any superfluous parts but the whole body of it hangs so cōcatenated and cemented together that the taking away of any one particl would ruin the whole fabrick nor will you find in faith any portion less strong than another but al equally invincible Som may be more leading points wherupon others depend and more materiall in their quality but in respect of our beleef the least hath as much firmnes of truth as the greatest And wtsoever sophistry may seem to shake any one apply the like engin to any other and in shall do as much that is to say in very truth nothing at al whatsoever it may appear to do in self beguiling minds Wherfore Madam bereaving me of any of my faith you rob me of all for it is an uncontroulable rule in faith what the Apostle also does as in a good sense it may be applied unto manners Qui delinquit in un◠factus est omnium reus Jam. 2.10 He that fails in one is made guilty of all This you would easily understand if you would consider how we receivd our faith and Christian doctrin For it was all equally handed to us at once and that from the autority of one and the same originall and it was extant in the world before any Scriptures were pend And these sacred Scripturs and other pious Books and also all generall councells that hav ever been celebrated in the Church were formed afterwards directed swayed rectified and ordered by this rule of Traditional doctrin committed to the Church and kept by her So that issuing conformably from one and the same sours all points of faith have an equall proportion of truth however they may differ in their own
one day be destroyd The path of the just saith Solomon is as the shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day Prov. 4.18 LADY This is handsomly spoken Think seriously of this good S Harry and be as ready to suspect that for an errour wch lay hid longer as that wch was sooner discovered so shall all your popery melt away by degrees like icicls before the sun KN. I see and acknowledg that new reformations in Religion are daily made but whether to the edification or ruin thereof dos not yet so clearly appear A continuall taking away is an odd kind of mending nor do I know any thing in natur made better or greater therby save only a gap The pretended lights that have risen from time to time one after another I have hitherto taken to be meer unwholsom exhalations sulphureous meteors or som ignes fatui good for nothing but to lead men into lakes and ditches The daily rising of new opinions in Religion maks me rather suspect all than approv of any innovation becaus thes opinions ar all of them but new denialls of som part of the ancient Catholik-faith wch former reformers had not yet attained the confidence to reject so that it is stil but the same kind of audacity the very self same presâ—â—â—ption wth an additioÌ„ of som new degree of daring And ther was never any harlot that cast of all her cloths at once but according as she grew by degrees more shamless They that threw down the altar left a tabl standing in the Church and the first violatours of picturs did not break al the glass windows yet their succeslours hav finisht the work and the bare walls now standing ar dangerously threatnd In the same manner be articls of faith defaced and rased in the hearts and spirits of men by a graduall proceeding of infidelity and heresy still increasing in its growth of imodesty til of the whol fabrick of Christian religion ther be not left one ston upon another wch is the way not of composition but solution it dos not renew but impair I should look strangely upon that Phesition who will first make me beleeve I am sick when I do not find in my self that I ill any thing or complain at all and then taking upon him even against my will to reform me in my health purges me too again till I bee not able to stand on my legs drawing still from me till my body be quit consumed and never adding any positiv thing to sustain me Or if he should begin on the outsid and first tear of my cloths then my skin and so my flesh and bones still telling me it is for the renewing of my health and cheerfulnes I could not judg this other than outragious mockery and most cruell inhuman abuse Yet such and no other be all reformations in religion a continuall cancelling of doctrins formerly receivd and practised a daily taking away without addition of any thing and that in despight of the Church whos doctrine it is This is one reason I like not to hear of thes reformations much les to behold wth mine eyes the wofull ruins and disorders accompany them both in Church and state Another is I cannot see when there will be any end therof the successours still pretending the unlimited right of innovation the unlimited right of innovation left them as hereditary by their fathers wch right for aught I see all generations ar equally ambitious to put in practis so that nothing is stabl or secure nothing at all unchangeable nor can any one tell either what faith he livs in or in what he is to dy Indeed such men as would not be containd in their bounds by a profession of infallibillity wch they had in the Church how shall a profession of fallibility exhibited by heresy contain them a fallible liberty and a free fallibility can never lin rolling nor will they ever rest stated till they be faln into the gulf of atheism MIN. Do not mistake us Sr Harry we do not intend that variety of reformations should afford an argument against your stiff standing Popery in that way you take it But desire you onely to consider that inventions have been perfected by degrees all arts sciences customs garbs languages and wtever hath been at any time invented or used by man as you shall soon perceiv and grant if you would let your thoughts descend unto any one particular The art of making of watches how is it betterd wthin forty or fifty years and our English tongue purified Thus runing over the whol employments of mens hands and understandings you will acknowledg wth us that addition of new facultys in men of succeeding tims hath stil perfected the rude unpolisht works of forgoing ages In the same manner Religion afortim obscur and mixt wth several superstitions is by latter times illustrated and clensd LADY T is therfor no marvell that every ten or twenty years new waies ar invented by fresher wits to oppugn Popery KNIGT Madam thes severall new ways of heresy argue first that the ring-leaders and followers of the Lutheran faction the most dangerous epidemicall revolt I think hath ever happed since the Apostles days did not forsak the church for any reason they had so to do but first forsook the church and then sought out a reason to colour their revolt For had they had any one or many reasons for their division thes being once cleard and answered by the Catholick church so far that they could no longer insist upon their scattered principls they would hav returnd unanimously unto that body whence they and their for-fathers had impiously apostatisd and not have studied other shifts as vain as the former and perhaps more wicked too wherby to maintain themselvs and adherents in the wretched Schism whereunto they had formerly run purly indeed upon sensuall and carnall motivs whatsoever themselves pretend Secondly thes new ways and daily alterations of sectarys do sufficiently demonstrat that out of the Catholick church ther is not that unity consent and stablnes wch may mov a prudent man to beleev that either all those Sects together or any one of them ar that mysticall body of Christ that keeps an unity of spirit in the bond of peace Eph. 4.2 and wch is fitly joind and compact together v. 16. sith they neither agree together in the articles of their heleef nor yet in the motivs of their apostasy from that church that is and ever hath been so united and compacted in it self nor have in themselves any stability or consistency at all That is not grounded which never lins moving Again thes new ways of oppugning the church are not onely new declarations of former negativs maintaind by their for-fathers against the church but additions of new negativs and further apostasie wch infers as much division from their predecessors as they had from the first faith of the church and so they give me no
of purgatory as well as hell or heaven both contrition and pennance both God and his blessed retinu of Saints and Angels both preaching and Sacrificing shrins altars unctions seaven Sacraments vows Pilgrimages and all whatsoever things the Catholik now beleeves or professes even to the least drop of holy water And if that faith that hath the vertu and power to trample down idolatry to chase away paganisme and triumph over all the power of darknesse be not divine if this good tidings of truth benot the vertue of God and power of God wch is it From this power of converting nations the Prophets of old magnified the word and Gospell of the Messias and S. Paul upon that account cals it the vertu and power of God and yet this efficacy is onely proper and peculiar to the Catholik Religion and non els I shall onely at this time give some generall conjectures in a familiar discours wherby we may be moved to beleeve wt is indeed most cerainly true that popery is no addition of mans at least suspect that the report our reformers give of it sounds like a slander leaving solider and more particular demonstrations for som other time LA. It will not displeas us to hear you speak so that after all is done you will follow our counsell KN. I shall not be obstinat But give me leave dear Lady fully to vent my thoughts For I conceive that a man is not capabl of better counsell till he hath utterly discovered all whatever things detaind him afortime in his sormer purpos wthout any reservation at all For even small reliques of former courses lurking in the mind undiscoverd will still be egging him on to thos waies again after he hath embraced better counsell repine against the advice he hath taken as ruinous and prejudiciall although it were in it self very behoofesull and good So that the mind runs a hasard of lasting disquiet wch enters upon a new cours before the old be totally dislikt VIC I out wth is Sr Harry our wth it fully for so it is written Counsell in the heart of a man is like deep water but a man of understanding will draw it out Prov. 20. MIN. Well Sr let not my argument be forgot wher by I prooud that popery was a human art and therfore in mans power to reform nay t is comendable to cashere falsities KN. You said indeed so but prooud it not not was it ever prooud yet by any tho it be in all mens mouths nor ever will be so long as the world lasts The misery is Sr that men of your opinion that is to say not catholik are all very little verst in our catholik authors especially such as be scholasticall subtile and voluminous love and care I mean wife and children haply not permitting such brain-consuming studies so that when we come to discours wch you t is as equally hard to perswad you as the vulgar of the parish being all of you equally ignorant of the Churches waies and doctrin And yet popery a thing indeed unknown to you must be jeerd at spoke against preacht against and haply writ against too by som pert Gentlman that has never so much as heard a whol cours of philosophy in his life for a whol cours either of philosophy or divinity is a thing now a daies altogether unknown in both our universities and that wth so many impertinencies lies and slanders such vanity fraud and cosenage such insulting babl wresting of Scriptur texts and falsifying of authors that my heart has even startld within me to behold this shamles dealing You say that all your reformations are but the taking away from the purity of Gospell the vain superstructurs of human superstitions commonly cald popery This you say becaus other reformers said so before you taking it one from another since Luthers time and your child will say it from you and so will every bastard in the parish Nor does it avail us any thing by all manner of proofs to assert the divinity and truth of our doctrin Altho you will not read or cannot haply understand those sublim orthodox divins that would fully inform your judgement in this point and convince you of an errour no less notorious than dangerous Yet me thinks there be many things obvious and familiar might render you wary and suspitious of danger in this your asserion wch concerns no les than your eternal salvation As first that you never examend it you know you did not I appeal to your own conscience The Church hath ever beene in possession of this her doctrin and cannot possibly be dispossest but by some evident demonstration wch I am sure the power of man and angel can never effect if you insist on any other autority as sacred scripturs or councells they are as sure hers as any of your proper goods is your own Nor is ther I am confident any one text I say not any one single text of Scriptur if it be taken together wth the whole body scope and intention of the book whence t is drawn that shall urg or proov any thing for any Reformation against the Church this I am able to maintain against the wholl world And yet you ar so far from considering or examining any of thes things that you conclude upon bare hearsay or report wthout either autority or demonstrative reason against the doctrin of the Church wherof she hath been time out of mind in possession and all this slighnes is used in a matter of the highest concernment in the world as if the talk wer onely de lana Caprina Me thinks it should fright you to think that if your assertion should be fals as for aught you know it is then ar you certainly guilty of the accursed sacriledg of diminishing from the word and will of God Again you know and do acknowledg that you have substracted not only some part but the most and greatest parts of that religion was found planted in the land in Harry the eights daies Pray tell me that whol mass or body of practicall doctrin that is now cut off in this year 1655 was it known in King Charls James or Queen Elisabeths days to have been all of it popish additions To this I am sure peopl of severall reformations will give severall answers Independency the last and purest reformation will affirm it but Protestancie the first and oldest apostasy will deny it nor will the Protestant indure that his children should judg him as he condemnd his mother Church or reform his fallibility as he rebeld against the infallibility of his parent And yet the Independent proceeds consequently to those very principles wch the protestant laid for his own revolt namely the fallibility of men the solesufficiency of scripturs and the Spirit of God therin assisting his elect to the discovery of truth Nor can the Independent be blamed for any thing but for striking thes principls further hom than the amphibian protestant did This
will or no printing and preaching presse and pulpet Mr Iohn an oaks Mr Prinne cannot utter any thing but truth Innovations papists do nothing else but make innovations they cannot eat or drink or sleep but the must do it and mischief is their very life LA. God mend all SECOND DIALOGUE LA. I have Sr Harry brought you here again your souls phesitian to understand the symptoms of your diseas and apply an agreeable remedy therunto KN. I shall Madam as well as I may both declar my sicknes and respectfully receiv his remedy LA. Com doctour you look blith upon t to day I take it for a good sign VIC And I am glad for sooth to see my husband cherfull for sadnes as it is written dries up the bones Pro. 17. MI. I bring you good news Sr Harry The work of reformation we perswade you unto is as easily effected as t is to cast of a heavy cloack in a burning midsommers day All popish practises as I in order shall name them to you do but you in the same method reject them and you shall in one half hour becom a Protestant in three quarters a Presbyterian in a whol howre an Independent and so be reformed at your leysur and wth eas KN. You say not all this while what shall guid me in this action MIN. The word of God that guides you Sr to the will of God KN. The means and end of his motion being coincident a man may well hope for an undisturbd tranquillity in the period MIN. Wt can disturb you Sr being built upon the rock of the bible wth more or les hold thereon according to the natur of the reformation KN. Wch reformation has the best hold MIN. Let them look to that I le not meddle wth those disputes KN. I have both read and heard of the rock of the Church but the rock of the bible you are the first man I know ever used the phrase MIN. The Church and her doctrin be all one the Churches doctrin and scriptur is the same and so the rock of the church and rock of the bible cannot be two severall things VIC Well said sweet heart This is now a little above me But so it is written The husband is above his wife and she shall be under and subject to him Gen. 3. MIN. The summe of all is Betake your self to the pure scripture And t is enough KN. Ther is much talk of Scriptur and all the sectaries have ever risen tho never so many or never so opposit one to another have still pretended it nay the devill urged his temptation wth a scriptum est Matt. 4. so that I feare the proposall of this either means or rest will prove but wast of time Give me leav to tell you that the messenger of the Gospell of peace who by a mission from pope Eleutherius converted the Brittons from paynisme to Christian faith in the second age of the church and the other from pope Gregorius who reduced the Saxes or English in the fift gave them all their religion as well explicitly in all the articles of their Christian faith as implicitly in the bible they deliverd into their hands wherin those articles by incidentall occasion lay casually coucht Now to take away all those explicite articles drest and prepared allready to our hands and give us the bible is the same thing as to take from men all the gold and silver already coined wth so much care and industry of princes and show them a mine whence such things may be digd wthout affording eyther work men skilfull in the art or instruments for the purpos Imagin in such a case wt disorder and confusion would happen when thousands of people are gatherd together about a mountain none verst in digging or fitted wth instruments for it none accustomed to the hollowes of deep earth none skild in finding out the vein none expert in discerning the oare or to melt it into bullion or stamp it into coin And yet all of them equally conceyted as undertaking ignorance uses to be and indifferently judging and condemning the works of each other It cannot otherwise happen in such a case but that some should tumble into precipices some be somtherd in the earth below some after much toil bring forth a handfull of clodded earth lead or iron oare and perhaps a slat or peble in the stead of mettall and if haply any one meet wth the right he will either not heed it as not appearing to be such or loose it in the allay melting or stamp In fine where so much curiosity and art is required in the manifold degrees of procedur yet none had by any and profest by all to the disparagement of one another wt can result from such an attempt but disorder nois confusion and hazard emulation quarrell amongst themselves Nov can they ever effect any thing to the generall agreement liking of all or repair the coin that is destroyd This is in all points our very condition when the Christian articles of faith wrougt out and stampt for us and deliverd us by our primitiv pastours according as they had received them from Jesus Christ the prime Inventour and Work-man of our faith are principitously annuld and the Bible put in mens hands to dig out from thence by their own skill and industry the results of their religion Nay the case here is so much the more desperat in that the common people wth the tradition of the Bible receiv this caution from the reformers that they take heed of such and such abrogated articles of popery wch as they do ever and anon appear in the Scripturs they hav to peruse so are they indeed the very pith and marrow of that sacred Book and the golden metall they are onely to seek for So that being left unto their own shallow judgments if it were then improbable they should ever light upon the whol sincere truth of good now being adviced and prejudiced against it altho they should happly light upon it t is impossible wth that prejudice they should ever embrace and adhere unto it That the articles of Catholik religion abrogated by reformers were all stampt out for us by our primitiv Pastours and have gon currant in the whol Christian world from the beginning to this day hath been proved a hundred times over and over by learned Catholik divines both for the generall in each particular And that it is an impious tiranny to take them all away and put people to seek new out of the Bible I think it will easily appear to an understanding man if he do but consider the way-wardnes of mans will prone to evill and averst to good such especially as is annext to bitternes and pains the fallacy of his fansy and weaknes of his understanding wch we cannot but perceiv to fail even in things that be in our very senses and that both by deficiency and errour both by want of apprehension and
said and done wt is to be thought and beleevd wt is to be hoped and feard wt concerns God and his creaturs wt angels and men wt earth and heaven wt our creation and redemption wt the beginning and end of things First where is the order and method to find out these things You will find that the story and doctrinall part goes hand in hand together wch is not the ordinary way of teaching If I peruse the story of Gospell by it self I shall scarcely find it answerable to my expectation whiles I find mention onely of one howr of Christs birth and not a word more for twelv years together and then but one single action of his appearing in the publick Schools and not a word again of his whole life till almost twenty years after and then onely some works he did in publick for the space of about three years so his death wch is far less than I should expect or desire to know And the doctrine our Lord deliverd is no more of it set down than what he spake incidentally in fields and streets and publick places the three years space of his publik appearance and not a word of any thing he taught his Schollers or Disciples in particular on set purpose without reference to publick speeches which was without all doubt the main doctrin primarily intended both by the Maister his disciples and most copiously explicated Moreover those publick speeches of or Lord we have set down in Gospell they are deliverd us but under certain generall heads and brief notes wthout any order or connexion at all that can appear to any the subtillest wit that is Our Lords Sermon on the mount is the largest piece of doctrin we hav of his deliverd at one time and most heavenly and divine it is like its authour but he that reads the sift sixt and seaven Chapters of S. Mathew where t is set down shall desire connexion And indeed the holy Evangolists collecting their Gospels as brief memorialls did it wthout all doubt the best way And t is sufficient and far better than if all had been set down in that order and fulness of discours our Lord deliverd it For the few separated notions of Christian morality set down in Gospell wer enough to give testimony to the traditionall doctrine the Apostles had methodically received from their master for his Church Finally those speeches of our Lord recorded in Gospell be only some brief sentences and parables questions and replies to interrogatories wch be far short to a whol body of divinity tho abundantly enough for a Church in whos bowels the Messias would imprint his law and intire will It appears then both by the mingling of the story and dogm together by the few parcells of the history it self by the want of that method and connexion in the dogmaticall part wch our dull capacities require for learning and the omission of great many things we should need to be imformd in far more amply than we can find it set down in Scriptur concerning the use of Sacraments government of the Church and a thousand difficulties rising about the exercises of charity and faiths I say it appears by these and such like things that the Scripture of the New Testament was never pend on any purpose to teach us our religion but rather to confirm and ratify by incidentall passages therein such religion and doctrin as should be deliverd by the Church the prime and sole mistresse of faith after God and in place of him in all clearnes of methodical beleef and practise To you saith our Lord to his Apostles Luc. 8.10 it is given to known the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven to others in parables that seeing they may see and not understand The Apostles and the Church derived from them were made acquainted wth the mysteries and secrets of Christian religion for their beleef and practise and the same Church clearly knows and understands them as the mysteries of her own profession and art wch she hath receivd and practisd from the beginning to this day But to others that be aliens and out of the Chuâ—ch it seems our Lord so orderd his speech that they should hear and yet not understand nor everfully perceiv his will till beleeving they were incorporated into his mysticall hody unto which alone all the mysteries of religion are delivered in perspicuity and clearnes This generall purpos and intention of penning the Gospell and other parts of the New Testament as short manuall notes for Christians within the Church or such as are to be congregated unto it from wch Churches hands they have both a larger explicit declaration of their faith and a full and ample practis thereof in her bosom must needs infer such an obscurity as shall obstruct all possibility out of the Church of God by this bare letter ever to arrive to a clear understanding of the waies of Christian Religion This is the first and great cause of that obscurity scripture carries with it unto such as come to seek their religion in a Book wch was never made to teach it nor written for such a propos The churches doctrin as it comes out of her lips that is the thing that converts nations and regenerats unto heavenly life and this written word is a good milk to nurs us up after we are regenerated wch made S. Peter to exhort Christians 1 Pet. as new born babes to desire that sincere milk of the word that they may grow by it 1. Pet. 2. But it is not the thing that givs us the first life Indeed the Scriptur does little or no good but as it is presented by the Church and received with her interpretation and practisd in her bosom wthout wch three things I wil be bold to say it is not the Word of God nor hath it any vertue at all The Ark of God so long as it was upheld by the Priests it comforted and sanctified them but touched or lookt into by others it destroyd them nor was it unto them an Ark of salvation but an offence and occasion of fall If we descend to particulars we shall espy reasons enough of obscurity such as will frustat all desire of any perspicuous discovery of faith to be made by any man wthout the churches help The very history doth afford disputs enough hardly to be answered by the learnedst of divines as they will easily grant that have examind them The Prophesies and mysteries of faith containd therein who is able to trace them And the morall or dogmaticall part tho it seem familiar yet hath it a profoundnesse beyond all human writting Indeed by this it is demonstrated to be the Word of God wch must needs be like himself unsearchable Out of the abundance ef the heart the mouth speaketh saith our Lord and where the heart is immense the word is also incomprehensible I doubt not but there be too many amongst our people in England who read the
for it and all kind of obscurity contrary to such an end But to conclude If Scriptur be indeed so clear and easy for each capacity to read out of them to cull his faith and by them to frame his religion as sectaries pretend and this be indeed the judgment of all reformers wherfore do they themselves so multiply their catechists interpretours and expositours theron to wt end is all their preaching and weekly teaching this if it be indeed to any end must needs be either to expound faith or promote good works if the faith be clear enough the expounding is in vain as for good works they be long ago exploded bannisht out of the land and the empty preaching for aught I know may go foot it after them for words are in vain that tend to no end In fine whence comes all these diversities of opinions amōgst us here in England about matters of faith and religion and so opposit one to another and yet all grounded upon Scriptur Is that way so uniform and easy that leads men so diversly Nor am I satisfied at all in hearing som answer as they do that this coms not of Scriptur but the disorder and mistakes of men so lōg as I see it may wthout the Churches help be so shreudly mistaken I have reason to suspect mistakes in my self too if I once lean upon mine own spirit and industry as others do being my self no better than my neighbours And therfore I am loth nay I shall never be perswaded to leav the secure footing I now hav in all tranquillity peace uniformity wth the Catholik body of Gods Church by the result of truth delivered us by antiquity consonant to Gods word both written and unwritten and run my self with the confusd rout of disagreeing sectaries upon the rock of the Bible so apt as it appears by the event to be mis-understood and and wrested awry that I am clear of the opinion that no man out of the Church of God nor nobody of meē besides the Church of God understands it right Nor shall I be so mad now in my old age to go to dig my self religion having so fair a one already stamped to my hands wch all the art of men and angels put together can never mend Put him in Bedlam that undertakes both labour and hazard for naught LA. Do you think Sr Harry ever to perswade me that reading the Gospell I do not sufficiently understand the story of Christ his birth and life death and passion resurrection and ascension I fear not to affirm that I understand it perfectly and by your favour as fully as is necessary I do also conceiv well enough nor is it hard so to do wt his doctrin and miracles conduced to mankind I am moved also wth the divine discours of Christ and his Apostles Every Sabboth-day I go to Church and hear the word of God preacht I cannot see wt is more to be done he that reads and hears and beleevs the word of life cannot miscarry VIC And I for my part understand all that ever I either read or hear Alas when I was a young girle I was even then so towardly that I could read the Scripture as I ran up and down the house according as it is written write the vision and make it plane upon Tables that he may run that readeth Hab. 2. My husband and I every Sabboth day go hand in hand to Church together like the beasts that went into the ark by two and by two the Male and his Female Gen. 7.2 Surely this is sufficient for the salvation of all flesh KN. Madam you have now toucht upon the main busines wherein all sectaries be most pittifully deluded If they do but go to Church and hear a Sermon each one according to his fansy their duty is done and all his safe I will not stand now to examine whether the preaching be orthodox or no. Be it what it will It will not serv the turn I have already to my ability declared that the reading of Scriptur is no sufficient means of finding out our faith tho so much as it is it doth all of it confirm and verify the Churches doctrin I shall now go forward and evince two truths more First that reading or preaching of Gods word or the hearing therof tho it be indeed Gods word and pure and orthodox is not the essentiall or cardinal work of Christian religion Secondly that a man may hear and read it all his life time and yet be lost at the end both for want of grace and truth Our Lord wrote nothing himself as all men know yet notwthstanding he would never have failed either to have done it himself or commanded others to have done it if reading or hearing had been the great work of his religion to be imposed upon mankind For reading you know and expounding of Scriptur presupposes writing and his great work had been no other than to see things written if our great work had been no other than to read or hear them The four Evangelists afterwards put together some few heads of our B. saviours life and doctrin haply to carry about wth them in their bosom and entertain their converts wthall But we do not read that our Lord gave them any command to do so And this is an argument in your principles that he gave them none at all And as he gave them no order to write so neither did the promise them any assistance in their writing for all the concurrence we find promised either them or their successours was onely for the pectorall custody of their traditions orall doctrine and Church government And therfor since you deny the constancy of Christs assistance in the continuall government of his Church internall beleef and externall doctrin unto wch that assistance was promist affirming that the Church of Christ as it is not in it self infallible so hath it gone astray both in practis and doctrin me thinks you might wth as much ease and indeed more plausibility deny the same concurrence to any of the Churches writings whereunto it was never promist at all nor the Scriptur or writing it self so much as commanded by him wthout whose order nothing of force or autority could be done Nor it is to be thought but that Peter James Andrew and others of the Apostles had been both as able and as willing to write Evangells as the other four wherof two of them were but disciples of a far inferiour rank to the Apostles and indeed but companions and attendants upon them as may be seen in the Acts. Nay if writing had been such a capitall work S. Peter would never have neglected to have writ a Gospell himself especially when S. Mark his pupil and companion wrote one But this is an argument they had some greater work in hand and more nearly enjoind than that was Nor can we find by any monument that any of the other ten Apostles who were sent severall waies
they do at least and if they chance for formalitys sake to fall upon any practicall point to speak therof wth no purpos hope or intention of their practise For t is agreed on both sides both preacher people that such practis is popery and nothing requisit to salvation but onely to beleeve Hear a parable Two artificers had each of them an apprentis The first having delivered to his servant exactly all the rules of his art put him presently to work and practis by them assuring him that practis will better his knowledg wch the servant in all singlnesse of heart applying himself to labour according to the dictats of his rule advanced accordingly and so became eminent in the eyes of men and excceedingly beneficiall to the common wealth The other tradesman wth drew from the sight of his prentise all the particular rules and whole method of his art onely deliverd unto him in grosse som experiments and feats thereof by wch notwthstanding he could not perceiv at all either where to begin or how to go on nay he gave his servant one generall caution not to put his hands to any thing his duty being onely once a week to com and sit down before him and hear him discours of the usefulnes and benefit of his trade Onely beleeving in him his work is ended The prentise under such a teacher grew to be a great proficient in works and sentences but never put his hand to any thing either for his own credit or the benefit and service of mankind Nay he mockt at the other apprentis and cald him simple drudg The first of these artificers is the Catholik church the other is the Reformation Do you apply the rest The Catholik Religion is a noble a rational religion well beseeming a complete man to profess well beseeming the Son of God to plant The reformation a vain empty businesse befitting none to receive it but a company of cripples that have neither hands nor feet to use nor none to invent it but dawes and magpies It begins in teaching and ends in preaching Wo to you Pharisees saith our Lord for ye tith mint and rue and all manner of herbs and passe over judgment and justice and the love of God those ye ought to have done and not leave the other undone Luc. 11. Preaching if it be right and pious may be used nay when instructions advise and comfort is necessarily to be applied it ought to be done but the practise wherunton it tends this is not to be left undon The tithing of mint rue and cumin does but figur out under a tipe a consecrating unto God part of the good things we do enjoy from him by fasting almsdeeds and prayer that is to be done these not to be left undone Preaching puts in mind of the works of faith hope and charity that wher is need is to bee used these not to be neglected At one and the same time to preach good things in the pulpet and to cry down the same things by the rules of Reformation is to open a mans mouth and stop his wind pipe All your people go to your Churches wth such a prejudice against the customs of Catholik Church whence they are cut off by the reformation that altho the minister should chance wth singular zeal and eloquence to declaim against sin and cry up the exercises of Christianity yet the auditory is promoted nothing at all therby being aforehand prejudiced by the rules of reformation incorporated and naturalised in their spirit For who can take such words to heart or ever heed them effectually that shall firmly beleev that all we do or can do is sin and wt sin soever we commit we shall sure enough be saved if we do but beleev in Christ. People imbued wth these principles shall never by any Rhetorick either of man or angel be either affrighted from evill wordly pleasures and sin or perswaded to the laborious works of mortification and pennance The sowr grapes of Reformation have so set peoples teeth on edg that they cannot chew good mear T is in vain t is utterly in vain to bid dead men walk or exhort those to the works of life who by the poyson of reformation are made dead and sensles Preaching is to Catholiks a profitable and religious exercise to hereticks if it be orthodox t is a vain work if pseudodox t is a wicked work but to no people nor in no kind is it or can it be the onely work or sole Christian duty LA. Wt be those works Sr Harry you require over and above preaching KN. Even such as the Word of God it self requires The works of faith hope and charity and use of Sacraments prescribed in Gospell a serious and effectuall indeavour against sin according as sacred scriptur prescribes whose precepts must be heeded as obligatory and counsells respected as meritorious offerings We must both beleev in Christ as mediatour and beleev him too as our legislatour Both love him and observ his will and when we do fail reconcile our selves unto him by the means-himself hath ordayned captivating both our will and understanding to his pleasure who is our redeemer and maister and omnipotent Lord. To speak more particularly the works wch Catholiks by their faith are directed and exhorted unto be of two sorts personall and conventuall The personal works be first a constant obedience to the Church in all her dictamens of faith upon this great hinge hangs indeed all true and solid Christianity then an effectuall exercise of homage and piety to God of justice and charity towards our neighbour of sobriety and continence in our selves These things must be done he that does them best shall fare best for it The conventuall a reverent use of Sacraments and a presence at divine psalmody and Sermons according to our occasion and need But the great capitall conventuall work and worship is the venerable and blessed Sacrifice of the Altar every holiday solemnly exhibited every Christian stands obliged to be then present at it tho his devotion may find it each day of the week in our Catholik churches and many thousands of good people serv God every day in this holy rite But this is a free offering of their own not wthout great benefit and comfort to themselvs unto wch Holy church will not oblige This is that great work wch constitutes and essentiates Christian Religion By this it was perfected in its fundamentall worship and duty towards God long before our people had any Scripturs to read and by wch especially seconded wth its other Catholik appurtenancies it would still remain intire altho there were no Scriptures at all either to read or hear For Scriptur as it is expounded by Holy church or rather the traditional doctrin of the church whereof Scripture is a short and compendious coppy is to us Christians a light not to sit idle by but to work by This is the work wch the Disciples and
may seem by human arguments yet must he himself as well as other Christians lay it aside if it be confronted by Catholik tradition the great and unresistable Rule of Christianity resign himself And it seems a principle of faith had delivered unto Christians this beleef that a soul once expiated goes to heaven Pope John tho he had reason to suspect so much so that he might hav abstained from propounding his thesis yet he did not propound it in councels where faith is determined but in Schools wher opinions are disputed and distinguisht from faith and upon that account was he justly to be excused Yet was that good Prelat so tender conscienced that he is said to have askt the world forgivenes at his death if they took any offence therat adding wthal that he did it only to give them occasion to search more narrowly whether the opinion were not consonant to tradition although it had not been yet heeded If then neither Pape nor councell can go contrary to the received waies of the Church in any thing how shall I be able to do it except I make shipwrack of my faith as S. Paul affirms Hymeneus to have don even by one fals opinion though otherwis a Christian 1 Tim. 1.19 For a lesser leak will drown a ship if it be not stopt or pumpt out so will any one errour in faith sink a self opiniating spirit For in the least we shall as truly resist God the first revealing verity as in the greatest and to gainsay him in any little thing who is equally infallible in all is no les than blasphemy and an insolence intolerable Sith it stands not wth his diety to be mistaken in the smallest matter or mislead his church therin LA. The church me thinks for the quiet and safty of a kingdom might well condescend to som opinions that be not so much materiall put case they were fals for in evills the les is to be chosen and that opinion cannot be so bad as the ruin of a whol Kingdom KN. The Church being a just depositary cannot teach otherways than she has receivd in any affair Besides Christ will hav his spous to be wthout spot or wrinkle or any such thing Eph. 5.27 and that opinion being against her tradition it cannot but make a wrinkle or spot or some such thing at least in her T is sacriledg wth us to rob or steal any thing out of a materiall temple what then would it be to purloin the Churches doctrin To rent her own seamles garment or make the least hole in it were an action unbeseeming the wisdom and modesty of the heavenly spous Shee will never do it nor no member of her body such as by Gods grace I am can do it without death and ruin to it self Try that will whosoever entertains but one particular misbeleef he shall soon find that being therby separated from the Catholik body he or his successours will soon attempt another and never lin till all be layd wast Besides the Church being but a depositaty or keeper of the doctrin committed to her charg hath not power over it to exhang distrain or make it away at her pleasur against the rules of honesty And if she should to content one sort of innovatours chang or relent in one thing others that would innovat in another may justly challeng the same favour and what should she then have had remaining to her self after so many innovations made by hereticks in so many ages I think very little or nothing at all by this time T is worth your consideration to ponder this For so you may perceiv both the integrity of this immaculat spous in conserving the doctrin wherwith she has been intrusted intire and wholly sincere and the madnes of all sectarys who would each in their wild fansys have the churches compliance wth them to her own ruin and being denied flew out into all exorbitances against her and forfeyted at once by their self opinions and obstinacy both the title of Catholik they had till then enjoyed and the security they had in the churches bosom This is a worthy and profitable speculation And therfor I shall indeavour to speak therof wth as much order method as can well be used in a matter of such disorder as the confused heap of heresys jumbled together may admit THe Churches doctrine is partly about the creation and Scriptures of the old Testament partly about our redemption and things peculiar to Christianity their persons or places precepts or counsells vices or vertues Sacraments and works either morall naturall or politicall in all wch severall hereticks have at times sought to bring in innovations wch had the church complied wthall she had had little or nothing left her by this time Nay she should have contradicted her self continually and said and denied the same things The extravagancys concerning the creation either opposed the autority of canonicall books or judgd amiss of the divine natur angels and souls the beginning of the world the condition of Adam and Eve our first parents Melchisedek and the like things wch wer antecedēt to our redēption Carpocrates and Cerdon in the time of pope Hygin rejected all the old Testament Ebion on the other side made the old Testamēt to be of equal autority wth the new and out of the new he cast forth al S Pauls Epistles as erroneous Cerdon and Marcion disallowed all the Gospells besides S. Luke Cerinthus all but S. Mathew the Alogians received all but S. Iohn Luther cast away S. Iames Epistle and the books of Maccabees tho he knew that not onely S. Austin but the whole councell of Carthage had received them as canonical Severus the Acts of the Apostles Apelles taught that the Prophets spake contradictories and lies Montanus that they understood not what they said though they are called seers for their understandig Isa 1. and are said to speak as inspired by the holy Ghost 2. Pet. 1. With which of these should the church comply and how The Gnosticks would have two Gods one from whence issue good things the other author of evill The Anthropomorphits in the time of pope Damasus would have God to be truly corporeall as man is The Armenians becaus God had said that Cain should not be slain by any man would needs have him a lier becaus Cain slew himselfe Sabellius in the time of pope Sixtus 2. would not admit any more then one person in God Arrius in pope Sylvesters time opposed the equality of the three divine persons The Alogians acknowledged not the Son of God to be the word The Ignoites maintained that Christ was ignorant of som things in particular of the day of judgment Macedonius in the time of pope Liberius made the Holy Ghost inferiour to the Father and Son not of the same essence wth them but a creatur Petrus Abaylardus said that the Holy Ghost was the soul of the world The Greeks that he proceeded not from the Father
after them said that Christ took not flesh of his mother but of the elements wch at his resurrection he rendred again to the world entring heaven wthout any flesh or body at all IV. The Manichees affirmd his body was phantasticall so also Priscillianus who therfore neither heeded his nativity nor resurrection 5. Valentinus contemporary wth Cerdon that the body of Christ was no true body but heavenly wch passed through his Virgin mother as through a pipe VI. Apollinaris of Laodicea in Syria in the time of Constantius sō of Constantin the Great that Christ in his incarnation converted some part of the divine word into flesh and so took not flesh of the Virgin S. Athanasius Ambrose and Cyrill wrote against this heresy VIII Nestorius Byshop of Cōstantinople in the time of Emp. Theodosius the younger taught that ther wer in Christ not only two naturs but two persons also After him dead and condemnd in the councell of Ephesus Gnapheus Byshop of Antioch renewed his errour and was himself also condemned in the fift Synod of Constantinopl IX On the otherside Eutiches abbot of a certain monastery in Constantinople in the time of Pape Leo the first taught that ther wer in Christ not only one person but one natur also This Eutiches was wthstood by Flavian Byshop of the place who condemnd his opinion wherupon arose a great feud among the Christians of the East som defending others condemning Eutiches and in that tumult a Synod was appointed at Ephesus by Theodosius junior wherein Dioscorus Byshop of Alexandria who was himself infected wth Eutiches his error presided there Eutiches was restored and Flavian condemnd This was the second Ephesin Synod wch all Catholiks abhord being made wthout the presence or apointment of the Pape and consisting onely of men infected with Eutichism But the heresy was afterward judged and condemned in a legall councell at Chalcedon and also an Ephesin councel called the third Synod about the end of their decrees X. Arrius and after him Apollinaris maintained that Christ had onely a body and not a soul against this also is the said Chalcedon and Ephesin councell in 13. cap. of their Decrees as also a Roman councell under Pape Damasus XI Macarius Byshop of Antioch wth his Monothelits affirmed ther were in Christ but one will for wch he was condemnd in the sixt Constantinopolitan Synod under Pape Agatho about the year 698. XII Basilides in the Apostles time and after him Marcus and the Marcites said that Christo was not crucified but Symon Cyreneus who carried his cross S Paul was of another mind we preach Christ crucified 1 Cor. 1. XIII Bassus about the Apostls times taught that salvation was not to be hoped for either in Christs corporall presence or Majesty And a long while after him Petrus Abailardus that the Son of God was not incarnat to the end he might redeem man neither had Satan ever any right in man This heresy as it is against the Nicen crede so also is it opposed by a Crede made in the Constantin councell called the second Synod and by the Ephesin councell called the third Synod ult o. Decretor and by the Chalcedon councell called the fourth Synod XIV Petrus Joannis averd that Christ on the cross was gored wth the Souldiers Lance whilest he was living and not after his death this opinion being contrary to Gospell was dasht in the councell of Vienna under Pope Clement the fift XV. Cerinthus affirmed that Christ was not yet risen from the dead But then saith the Apostle Our faith is in vain 1 Cor. 1. These be the principal heresyes I read of concerning Christ our Lord contrary to the churches doctrin wch teacheth that Christ our Lord was perfect God and perfect man being one person in two naturs the one divine by eternall generation received from the Father of light and being the other human from the Virgin Mary consisting of a true body and perfect soul unto wch two naturs he had answerably two wills divine human the human natur hypostatically united to God was nailed to the crosse for our reconciliation and after he had rendred up his spirit gored wth a lance wch natur after our Lords resurrection ascended up into heavenly glory Concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary ever most highly reverenced under God by all Christians upon earth till Luther opend to this wicked world a door of blasphemy I find few or no ancient heresys at all Good S. Denis the Areopagit having the happiness to see her while she was yet living is said to have been so astonied at the unusuall Majesty of that sacred persō that he is reported to hav said that if Catholike faith had not taught him otherwise he should wthout any demur have adored her as a diety I hav read also of som amongst the ancient Christians that were blamed by the Catholik Prelats for some excess of devotion towards that sacred Virgin as if they had held her a diety by supreme adoration and incense but I have forgot their names I suppose being better advised by their Byshops they soon conformed themselves to that reverence was due to so blessed an instrument of our welfar and so the errour was redrest But who should dare to disable or diminish either in word or deed that divine Virgin I never read of any who bore the name of Christian according to her own prophesy in Gospell Lo from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed untill Helvidius contemporary wth S. Jerom was bold to say that after the birth of Christ she accompanied S. Joseph wch all Christians ears abhord the whole church ever reverencing her as perpetuall Virgin both before and in after child-birth for wch virginity solitud our Lord upon the cross committed her to the care of S. John the Evangelist saying to him Ecce mater tua The body of our Lord being indeed of so venerable a sanctity that he would not that any should so much as ly in his sepulcher much less in the tēple of his nativity I do not find that either Luther or Calvin vented any blasphemy against this Venerable Creatur but followers of heresy do som of them out go their leaders Som Manichees held that S. John Baptist that glorious morning star was damnd for not beleeving in Christ as Bernard de Luxenburg recounts in his Catalogue of Hereticks Yet Christ himself testified that there was not amongst men a greater than hee Concerning saints in generall their worship and power I. That the saints in heaven are not to be honoured or prayed unto was the heresy of Eustachius condemned in the councell of Gangres c. 20. decret and after him Vigilantius Wicleph and Luther This heresy is also judged in the councel at Orleans c. 23. decret II. The Lollards in England following Wicleph and before him Vigilantius who was a French Priest and before him Eunomius taught that the Reliques of Saints were not to be kept or reverenced S. Jerome rose up
against this heresy and the councell of Lateran under Pape Innocent the third censurd it III. That no true miracles are done at Saints shrines was stiffly maintained by the Waldenses a company of men no les insolent than ignorant and indeed plaine idiots who denied any Miracles ever to have been wrought in the Church not knowing perhaps that our Lord had said In my name they shall cast out devills Mar. ult As cōcerning other persons in the church Byshops Priests judges Magistrates Religious I. Wicleph following the simple Waldenses and Huss following Wicleph taught that all Byshops are equall in autority and jurisdiction Luther being excomunicated by Pape Leo the tenth for his innovations and pertinacy therin following Huss said that the Pape was no more than another Byshop In the same errour for som time were the Grecians who for the heresies of Nestorius condemnd in the Ephesin Synod and of Dioscorus and Eutiches condemned in the Chalcedon councell had separated themselves from the unity of the Church as also the Armenians who had don the like upon contempt of the decrees of Chalcedon but in the councell of Florence under Pape Eugenius the fourth both the Greeks and Armenians after a long dispute submitted themselves to the Church and in that councell the Papes primacy was confirmed acknowledged by all both Greeks and Latins II. The Pseudapostoli Wicleph and Huss avouched that both Prelat and Prince by any mortall sin forfeited all their autority condemnd in the councell of Constance Sess 8. as also in the councell of Trent both under pope Paule Sess 7. and Iulius Sess 4. III. The Waldenses denied he had power of indulgences or remission of temporall penaltys censurd by the councell of Constance Sess 8. VI. The Pseudapostoli denied any obedience to be due either to Pape or Prelats or any one but Christ as also the Beguins and Bogards taught that a man that is come to the state of perfection is bound to obey no man V. The simple Waldenses and their ape Wicleph affirmd that neither the Apostles nor their successours had autority to make any decretalls or cannon Law Against these is the councell of Vienna under Pope Clement the fift and the councell of Constance Sess 8. 15. VI. The Vadians or Anthropomorphits and after them the Waldenses held that neither pape nor church could enjoy any temporall possessions The same mischieuous doctrin was taught afterward by Wicleph the poor men of Lions shadow and after him by Luther that grand licker up of excrements who by that doctrine invited the German Princes to rob the goods of the Church This errour is condemnd also in the said councell of Constance Sess 8. VII Iohn de Wessalia condemnd at Mentz in the time of the emperour Frederick the third taught that both Pape Church might erre VIII Donatus in Africa in the time of Pope Liberius and emperour Constantius taught that none but good men were wthin the church This Donatus taking it ill that Cecilianus was ordaind Byshop of Carthage he calumniated him in things he could not prov or make good for the wch he was declared by the judges a jugling knave upon this ignominy he divided himselfe from the Church giving it out that the true Church was onely on his side and not wth them that favourd Caecilianus and so going on from one thing to another infected almost all Africa in the time of Pape Iulius This heresy of his was taken up by Rogatus and the Circumcellions and afterward by Huss and Luther and written against by S. Austin in very many places and condemnd at last by the councell of Constance Sess 15. IX That the noble senate of Christian Prelats met together in generall councells erred in their decrees and canons was the opinion first of Arrius who was himselfe condemnd in the councell of Nice then of Nestorius who had been censurd in the councell of Ephesus then of Eutiches and Dioscorus who had been judgd in the councell of Chalcedon then of Huss the Boheman Wicleph who was cast in the councell of Constance lastly of Luther whose wicked doctrin was anathematisd in the councell of Trent This heresy if it may not rather be stiled blasphemy against Christ and his church whom he promisd to confirm in all truth is largely confuted by Iohn Byshop of Rochester Iodocus Chlitoueus William Ockam Iohn Eckius and severall other Catholik doctours X. That all Priests are equall and a Byshop is nothing above an ordinary Priest was the errour first of Aerius then of the Waldenses Wicleph and Luther condemnd by S. Austin in his book of heresies c. 53. Whether Episcopacy be another order or onely another degree in the same order t is certain that in the old Law the chief priest or Byshop had distinct vestments and entred the Sancta sanctorum wch others did not and in the new Testament a Byshop constitutes Priests Tit. 1. not contrary nor is any Disciple in the Acts of the Apostles read to have used imposition of hands but onely the Apostles And so the second councell of Hispala declares that confirmation belongs onely to the Byshop XI Luther more fondly added that all Christians are equally Priests forgetting that Holy Scriptur expresly speaks of segregating or setting apart some from the rest to that function I left thee at Crete that thou shouldst constitute Priests Tit. 1. XII The filthy fellow added that Priests ought not to be unmarried or separated from women wherein he exceeded Iovinian who indeed equalled marriage wth virginity but blamed none for remaining single himself living so to avoid the troubles of wedlock This he taught the better to justify himself who being a Priest and a Religious man of the Hermits of S. Austin had revolting seduced a Nun. The same was done taught by Occolompadius who had been a monk of S. Brigit Bucer a Dominican fryar the rest of Luthers retinue Impiously wthout doubt for it was prohibited a Priest to marry in the very beginning of the church by the canons of the Apostles can 27. and afterwards by the Neocesarian councell c. 1. decret and it appears in sacred Scriptur it self that such was the practis of primitiv times XIII The Pepusians of old promoted women not onely to the Priest but Priesthood too XIV All universitys or generall studies for clargy men are condemnd by Wicleph as brought into the church by paganism forgetting that the Apostle exhorts Timothy a good Christian to remain permanent in the things he had learnd 2. Tim. 1. and that in the very Apostles days the Christians constituted schools at Antioch Act. 14. and afterwards at Alexandria wherin Panthenus was first prefect then Clemens then Origen And therfor the councell of Constance justly condemnd this errour amongst the rest sess 8. against the 29. articl XV. As also that other opinion of his wherin he taught that superiours be they Ecclesiasticall Prelates or Kings may be punnisht by subjects at their
5. At least Catholik tradition wch is the only interpreter of Scriptur and judg of all controversies hath cast it VII That all shall be equall in glory was the paradox of Jovinian a Roman monk in the time of Pape Damasus and Siricius who leaving his profession ran himself into many heresies this opinion is no other for there is one clarity of the Sun another brightness of the moon another of the Stars as one star differs from another in glory so also shall be the resurrection of the dead Cor. 15. Jerom wrote two books against Jovinian and this opinion is disabled by the autority of the councell of Theles in Africa under Pape Siricius of Florence under Pape Eugenius the fourth VIC You might Sr Harry have named my husband me for many of these opiniōs wthout troubling your self wth such ūcouth names for we hold them too and so long as God gives us life and health shall do so stil according as it is written Hold that fast wch thou hast Rev. 3.11 Nay I hold others too wch you now mentiond though I never heard of them before according as it is written We beseech you brethren that ye increass more and more 1 Thess 4. LA. Pray S. Harry speak somthing concerning the Sacraments and what devises have been about them KN. Madam I am now come to it I. the hereticks called Cathari denied all Sacraments the Armenians and long after them Martin Luther Father of the Protestants admitted some according to their owne liking but denied that any had intrinsecall vertue to confer grace But the councell of Trent under Pape Paule the third sesse 7. both defined the Sacraments to be seaven in number according to the Catholik tradition and to confer grace ex opere operato II. That sacred things and spirituall gifts might be purchased wth money was the errour of Simon Magus and the action from him termed Simony condemnd in the 11 Toletan councell c. 8. decret and before by S. Peter himself Non est tibi pars Act. 8. III. Luther taught that in no Sacrament was imprinted any character contrary to the churches doctrine wch teacheth such a seal to be made in baptism confirmation and holy orders confirmd by the councell of Carthage Florence and Trent under Paul the third Sess 7. can 9. In particular concerning Baptism there have been many errours I. Seleucus and Hermias Galatians baptised not in water but fire But the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth defined water to be the naturall matter of Baptism II. The Marcites disciples of one Marcus a magician about the Apostles time changed the form of Baptism doing it In the name of the unknown Father of all things and in truth the Mother of all and in him who descended upon Jesus For they held that God preacht in the old law was not the Father of Christ becaus he was unknown The Cataphygians and Paulianists also did not baptise in the name of the Trinity as Catholikes do according to comand of Gospell Baptiseing them in the name of the Father Son and holy Ghost Mat. 28. III. The said Cataphygians baptised the dead They had their name from the Province of Phrygia whence they came their leader was Montanus who called himselfe the Paraclet and Prisca Maximilla his two Prophetesses The Marcionists did the same who finding any to dye unbaptised they put a living man under the hers of the dead and asked him as if he were the dead man if he desired to be baptised answering yea they baptised him for the dead wch thing they said S. Paul himself did practise 1. Cor. 15. although Marcion their leader is not read to have don any such thing but few hereticks content themselvs wth the errours of their leaders Marcion himself was in the time of Antoninus Pius his countrey Pontus a great stoick Philosopher and being converted to Christian faith he followed the dogmes of Cerdon intermingling many Philosophicall things wth his Christian religion and coming to Rome he seduced many Catholiks where meeting wth S. Polycarp and asking him if he knew him I know quoth S. Polycarp and do acknowledge the eldest son of Satan But against this errour both of the Marcionits and Cataphygias is the definition of the third conncell of Carthage where t is declared that neither the Eucharist nor baptism may be given to the dead IV. The Psallians and Euchitae attributed no vertue at all to Baptism but made all sins to be rased onely by Prayer so likewise the Messalians and Enthusiasts The Manichees also thought that baptism exhibited in water was worth nothing The Albanenses Albigenses likewise rejected baptisme the Armenians took from the Sacraments all power of conferring grace Against this heresy is the decre of the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth V. Petrus de Bruis a Frenchman of Narbona who was afterwards burnt in the Town of S. Giles said and taught that baptism was of no avail to Infants that have not the use of reason After him one Henricus bore his Standard from whom the followers of the heresy were called Henricians and Brusians After four hundred years the Anabaptists raised up the heresy again But S. Denis the Areopagite witnesses that children were baptised in the Apostles time c. ult Eccl. Hier. And S. Cyprian two hundred years after and S. Austin after him testify that it was done in their days And the Catholik practise is confirmd by the councell of Lateran under Pope Innocent the third by the councel of Vienna under Clement the fift and the councell of Trent under Paul the third in two Sessions 5. Sess c. 4. 7. Sess can 19. VI. The Donatists rebaptised such as came over to their side beleeving that such as came to the true church was to be baptised again But the first councell of Carthage c. 1 decret as also the councell of Vienna under Pape Clement the fifth and the councell of Florence under Eugenius the fourth defined this opinion as erroneous S. Cyprian and other Byshops of Africa held also that hereticks coming to the Catholik church were to be rebaptised But this they did not defend against the church wth pertinacy as hereticks did but disputed it as a probable opinion not then in their dayes defined and happly upon suspition that hereticks used not the right form and matter One Baltasar a Dutchman of late held morover that all people are to be baptised again when they come to years of discretion becaus he thought the baptism of infants were of no valiew But faith teaches there is but one Baptism Eph. 4. as ther is but one death of Christ wch it figureth Do ye not know that so many as are baptised unto Christ are baptised to his death Rom. 6.3 VII The Armenians taught that baptism ought to be conferred wth the Eucharist and that none can be validly baptised unless he be anointed wth chrism Claudius Taurinensis held baptism without the sign of the
unto Baal that list I my people will follow the Lord as it is written in Scriptur For I will never beleev but this scriptur came from God and not from the Pope as you talk Sr Harry from heaven and not from Rome LA. By your favour sweet Mistres I have heard say that S. Marks Gospell was writ-ten in Rome first and originally in Latin I find also in my Bible that some of Pauls Epistls were written and dated from Rome as those he wrote to the Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians the second to Timothy that to Philemon and haply that to the Hebrews wch was dated from Italy And the Epistle which was written on purpose to the Romans was assuredly carried to Rome before it was brought hither and must come thence to us So that if they did come from heaven it seems Rome is either heaven it self or in the way twixt us and heaven for they were there first either brought thither or written there and thence cam over into England and other countries But to turn to you Sr. Harry me thinks you ar now too confident and seem to put on a refolution too much opposit to the hopes I have of you and consequently to the hopes you may hav of me for I cannot love an infidel as a friend much les as a husband VIC So indeed Madam it is written Be not unequally yoakt wth unbeleevers for we fellowship hath righteousnes wth unrighteous nes or wt communion hath light wth darknes KN. I begd the favour Madam to utter my mind freely and I think you granted it For t is wth an il affected mind as wth a diseased body neither can be made whol till they they hav purgd themselvs of their ill humours MIN. I am ready Sr to prove from point to point that al we hav in our reformation rejected is the pure inventions of men whereof the principal is that tyrant of Rome that Babylonian Antichrist the Pope VIC The whole Book of Revelations was made against that Beast Let me but read six or seaven Chapters and you will be affrighted I warrant you Now he rises out of the Sea then tumbles out o th clouds then ascends from the deep pit on a fiery red Hors or black hors wth seaven horns or ten horns accompanied wth armed locusts death and dragons KN. We will not descend unto particulars as yet Giv me leav now only to tell you in generall that those rejected parcells of our ancient Catholik faith cannot in any probability be thought human inventions For the Roman Catholik church whence all our religion issued doth own them indifferently wth the rest for integrall parts of the Christianity she at first deliverd And reformers never yet agreed together wt or how many of those parcells wer human and upon that account to be rejected And yet if they had had any certain knowledg either from God or man either by history or grounded reason they would not wth so much disagreement amongst one another hav by degrees cast off som one part some another of that religion they receivd at first altogether upon one the sam motiv of the Revealers infallibility This disagreement of reformers as it cannot but bring themselvs if they would but open their eyes into some suspitiō of uncertainty so to me unto whom uncertain grounds of faith are no grounds at all they ar a sufficient conviction of errour fraud Again these presented popish superstitions and human inventions rejected even by Protestancy were both very many and verry weighty at about the reall presence apostolicall traditions the papes supremacy merit of good works sacrifice of mass sacramentall absolution use of images invocation of Saints seaven sacraments vows shrines priesthood and the like even in a manner the whole body of practical religion Thes if they be additions of man must either be ignorantly taken up by the people or imposed upon them by their prelats As for the peopl if nothing at the beginning had ere been taught them but only to beleev in Christ it is not possible morally speaking that such things as thes should ever com into their heads but t is altogether and absolutly impossible that they should be taken up universally by all people of the earth together and that not by parcells as now they are cast away but the whol body of them together wth such unity and consent as hath been ever found in all Christian kingdoms of the world none of the peopl in any kingdom gain saying their fellows nor Prelats resisting If you say the Prelats imposed them This must be don either by violence or fraud either by strong hand or som insensibl introduction Such main weighty tangible points as thes wch were to be brought not onely into peopls heads but hands and daily and hourly to be practisd can never be thought by any sensibl man to have been insensibly introduced or insensibly receivd or insensibly liked of wth so much prejudice of carnall eas and sensuality I say wth so much prejudice of sensuality as fastings watchings almsdeeds justiciary satisfaction vows of poverty obedience and chastity pennances cloisturs and religious monasteries must needs bring upon the world For the same reason violence offred to the people whether at the same time or severall ages in such businesses of main importance of great weight and of much servitud could never pass so smoothly or be so tamly admitted by all Christian kingdoms wherof some be at deadly feud opposition and war with one another others of a natur more refractory and not so carfull to keep wt they have once receivd som sooner som later converted so that no nois should be made therof no cours taken to resist it no dislike of the doctrin no difformity of beleef He can never beleeve this who knowes either the nature of the world or the disposition of the Catholik Church The world is naturally tumultuous impatient of new yokes apt to insurrections slow to admit a restraint and no les prone to omit neglect and reject wt is servilely imposd upon them especially if it be don wthout just autority and contrary to peopls inclinations The Catholik Church on the other side he that knows her and hath beheld her proceedings from age to age may easily discern how ticklish and scrupulous she is how she startls at the very news of the least innovation or new fangldnes in any of her peopl wch if it do increas how small so ever the matter may be in it self the Catholik body rises up against it will not rest till by a councell it be condemnd This is the motiv of calling so many councells as have been since Christianity first began and of the severity ther used even in som things a man would hardly deem considerable It would even delight a man reading the history of the church in learned Baronius and others to see the Churches industry and watchfulnes on all occasions to prevent new fangldnes the labour
and diligence of her councells their faithfulnes study and exactnesse in examining discussing refuting upstart opinions their uprightnes and wisdom in defining confirming the ancient Catholik doctrin against all innovations according to that general oracle of all Synods Nihil innovandum veterum traditionibus standum and lastly the severe penaltys inflicted by the church upon the authours of innovation if they did not humbly recant their errour so that all things considered aright t is as impossible for human innovations to incorporate wth the body of anicent Catholik faith as for wood or stone to concorporate wth the flesh of an animal You would M◠Dr. save me the labour of perswading this truth any further if you would pleas to call to mind how severall Reformers have taunted at the scrupulosity of papists in this kind yea and inveighed too against their severity telling us that popish councels are so scrupulously severe that they question meddle wth and censur things that ar of little or no concernment at all in Religion and oftims pure Philosophy that they condemne good books written by their owne people and those men of sincerity and conscience one can hardly tell why or wherfore that they so enslave excellent wits that they cannot invent or utter any thing that may rellish never so little of novelty that they judg the faithfull and cast them out of the church even for small supposed deviations that they set up inquisitions to prevent and suppresse liberty of conscience even wth un-Christian cruelty And they tell us severall storys of the Catholik churches scrupulosity in this kind of Heliodor put out of his byshoprick for writing his fained Romance of Virgilius displaced in like sort for teaching that ther were Antipodes an opinion in those daies new and unheard of of a Printer that together wth the losse of his place sufferd a heavy mulct for altering one letter wch had been falsly transcribed in that parable of the woman that lost a drachme and swept her house evertit domum the Printer for evertit made it everrit as it ought to be and forfeited say they his office for his pains It is possible that so much curiosity so much scrupulosity and tendernes should so tamely admit of an insupportable weight of popery wthout any disturbance at all nay wth the liking and universall consent of all men God Catholikes are as tender of their faith as of the apple of their eye so that if a friend or kinsman should once take up any noveltys therin we are scandalised at it rise up against him cannot but show our aversion and dislike even wher natur and custom had united us Nor can any one of our country-men broch an heresy but all sound Catholiks will hate him for it and rise up against him forreiners if it ever com to their ears will detest him much more how ever he may draw some disciples after him such light capritious people as will be led away wth every wind of doctrin and som such there have ever been who forgetfull of God and their own safty will leav the rock of the church wherupon they are built to follow the new fangldnes of a proud instable mind the whole Catholik body still resisting and condemning the insolence This is a quality as evident in good catholiks as that a man hath a nose in his face nor needs it proof How then can it be thought that whol Kingdoms and severall nations should submit to the judgment of one proud deviatour be he never so witty ov eloquent as for example all the Prelats of Spain Italy Germany France East and West-Judys Asia in a word all over the world to one haughty self conceited English Priest deviating from the ancient received faith of his ances tours wthout any resistance dislike or noise It is not a thing by a reasonable man so much as to be imagind Nor hath a prelate in one countrey any more power over the prelates of another than wit and eloquence can afford him wch reason and experience showes can never suffice for the bringing of all mankind into captivity to it self wthout resistance and clamour The chief Priest is the fittest to offer this kind of violence and yet how little he is able to prevail in an opinion contrary to the Churches universall tradition appears sufficiently in the fact of pope Iohn the twenty second who propounding to the consideration of some Christian universities the negativ of the soules fineal beatitud till the generall judgment effected no more but a commotion of the Christian world against himself And the thing is remembred and spoke of to this day Wherfor neither covin nor violence can be of any avail to the introducing of innovations by any person wtsoever contrary to the churches custon and tradition Deal sincerly wth me and take any one point of those many wch English Catheliks hold at this day masse pilgrimages vowes pennance absolution reall presence or wt you will and tell me in wch of the Kings dayes between William the conquerour and Harry the eight it was first taken up here or brought into the land look still further and see your self if the same was not beleevd and practisd by the Saxons even from their first conversion untill K. William the conquerours daies go forward and you shall find that the religion the Saxons receivd from Pope Gregory did both in that point and all others agree wth wt the Brittons had receivd two or three hundred years before This I am sure you shal find if you be not wāting to your self How then can you ever hope to perswade me that all or any of these be innovations wherof you can tell me neither the motiv nor the occasion nor the time they were introduced nor the person by whom nor any event that followed theron T is an argument of desperat wretchednes to cast away all practicall religion upon no other account than the bare affirmation that t is popish superstition and popish inventions No Sr the inventions of men in matters of religion cannot be so universall in men and Kingdoms of differing humours and at enmity oftimes wth one another they cannot be so imutable in so many alterations of states and governments as are and have been in the world they cannot be so permanent being both human and unlawfull for as divinity and essentiall truth are therfor eternall and unchangable becaus such so humanity and falshood must needs decay and moulder away contrariorum contraria est ratio It was a golden observation that of Gamaliel a great doctour of law among the Iewes If this counsell be of men it will come to naught if of God ye cannot frustrat it Act. 5. You see by the alterations that happen in human inventions that t is much for mens conceits or fansies to stand unch angd for one age or two all Reformations are by their continuall vicissitudes convinced to be human counsells and works of men