Bishop to Bishop to know and certifie the state of al Churches and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man which is a poore stay for a christian conscience Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in the community of all things a matter written in great letters and so determined in the worde of God that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants that they could not still remaine without checke or contradiction I am sure he hath read in Matthew Sap. 13.25 that while men slept the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat and that both should grow together vntill haruest and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason of mens sleepines and wrought closely without any effectuall contradiction otherwise it had not beene a mystery yet notwithstanding when once it was growne so out of fashion that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was 2. Thes 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it and when haruest is come it shall be abolished neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne Apoc. 2.13 c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam Apo. 2.19 c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue seruice faith patience and workes to be more at the last than at the first yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God The Dialogue Sectio V. PAp Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed that is to say vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I haue sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors for admit that you could by expounding wresting of scriptures intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures b Nonsequitur yet must you leaue out of the same Church as Heretickes and Scismatickes all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches neither are you c you measure vs by your selues able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant or any one Bishop or principall member thereof Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture what ancient Fathers Doctors Bishops were they that held such doctrine Pap. In a word they were all Papists which being prooued you will not denie the consequent d All the Fathers held not these points and some of these points were bastards and haue no knowne Fathers they held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead they prayed to Saints held also vowes of chastitie the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage and the descention of Christs soule into Hell call you not this Papistry I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions now shall you heare e All this hath nothing in it but facing the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church I will begin with prayer for the dead and so goe on in order The Answere THe second wound is come at length to the searching namely that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops must bee excluded as heretickes and scismatickes out of our Church and why so Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures is not this a deepe wound thinke ye wee say indeed that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures but doe you therefore say that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits through ignorance or infirmitie Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 3. are to be put out for wranglers Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit tenuit quod nos dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci qui nunc à domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance or simplicity did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord may looke for no pardon Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him and so say we of the ancient Fathers that haue added the timber hay and stubble of traditions to the gold siluer and precious stones of Scripture howbeit see I pray you how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church The Fathers were all Papists and held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation Sacrifice for quicke and dead prayer to dead Saints vowes of chastitie the single life of Priests and the descention of Christs soule into hell all these trim points of learning you shall heare now so prooued by tradition out of euerie Doctor as you must confesse to bee super excellent yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically after the imagination of your owne braine for I dare assure you he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply as they sound but charitably for so many as haue writings extant and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters The Dialogue Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo Cap. 75. It appeareth there that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a And of yours too for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes as the Church then did looke bet-vpon Epiphanius concerning Prayer for the dead and concerning the feast of Easter and the equalitie of Ministers he was a flat Puritane For he held that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop he vsed the b
not think his knot is yet loosed there is nothing saith hee in the Sacrament that is incomprehensible but Epiphanius saith not so though he say it neither can it bee inferred out of quot sunt similia sunt for the Image of God was comprehensible in Adam though it be defaced in vs and things may be Similia secundum magis minus but not to multiply quarrels let vs graunt that he saith to bee true what then Marrie then I would learne saith hee if it bee not Christs true bodie really present but a figure therof what wonder or incomprehensible matrer is there here is a little prety It three times repeated in the knitting of this knot It is his bodie It is not like to a naturall bodie and if it be not Christs bodie c. I beseech you what meanes this man by his It is It something or is It nothing or what is It Epiphanius saith It is of a round forme therefore It is not accidens for rotundum is not accidens but rotunditas if It be a substance then It must bee either the bodie of Christ and so the bodie of Christ is of a round forme or else it must bee bread and so indeed all the three Euangelists are bold to call It Math. 26 26. Mark 14 22. Luk. 22 19. 1. Cor. 10 16.17 1. Cor. 11 23 26 27 28. and so is the Apostle Paul twise in one Chapter and foure times in another and hee himselfe for all this mincing of the mattter comes downe in the end out of the clouds and confesseth the Sacrament to be of a round forme whereof it followeth that it is neither an accident nor the reall substance of Christs bodie but bread as the Scripture cals it Now for the vnloosing of his knot I say that it is incomprehensible howe a round peece of bread should bee such a figure as is worthy to bee called the bodie of Christ and so to exhibite and conuey the graces and merites of Christs passion into vs that our sinnes are remitted our faith encreased and wee incorporate and made members of his bodie of his flesh and of his bones Let him shew me that this is not farre beyond the comprehension of mans reason and I will giue him his asking But for a full cleering of Epiphanius it is to bee remembred that Manes and his disciples liuing vpon the sweat of other mens browes and supposing all things to haue life soule as man had were wont to consecrate the bread and wine that was giuen them to fill their slowe bellies withall after this sort Ego non seminauite non messui te non molui in clibanum non misi alius obtulit comedi innoxius sum c. I sowed thee not I reape thee not I ground thee not I baked thee not another offered it and I did eate I am innocent c. Wherunto Epiphanius answereth ipsi non recidunt botrū sed edunt botrū Haeres 66. circa medium vtrum grauius est etenim vindemians semel recidit botrū qui vero comedit per dētes sectores ac manducatores singula grana edomat per hoc magis multipliciter torquet ac secat non amplius similis erit ei qui semel secuit is qui manducauit consumpsit They cut not the bunch of grapes but they eat it which is greater the Grape-gatherer did once cut the vine but he that eateth it doth cut and grinde with his teeth all the graces and in the respect he doth torment it much more and hee that hath eaten and consumed it is no longer like to him that onely once cut it You heare what Epiphanius saith for confutation of the Manichies Now cōsider how that he saith can possibly be good if the liuing sensitiue bodie of Christ blood and all be eaten of the Catholickes might not the Manichies then reply that they were more to be borne withall that were compelled by hunger and thirst to eat and drinke liuing things of meane regard crying for griefe Ego non seminaui te non messui non molui c Than Epiphanius and his Catholickes that presumed to eat the liuing flesh of Christ and to drinke his blood verily Epiphanius being learned wise would not haue left his reason in this case wide open without either fence or shelter against the aduersarie if the reall presence and manducation of the bodie and blood of Christ had been catholickely beleeued in his time Peter in the Acts when a voice from heauen commanded him to kil and eat though he were hungry and in a traunce yet he forgat not the law of God but answered God forbid Lord for nothing polluted or vncleane hath euer entred into my mouth and shall wee thinke that the same Peter when our Sauiour saith take Act. 10 10. c. Et cap. 11 5 c. eat this is my bodie and take drinke this is my blood would neuer make any question neither he nor any of his fellow Apostles against the eating of mans flesh and drinking mans blood if they had vnderstood the wordes of Christ after the popish fashion Euen so hee that thinketh that Epiphanius holding the reall eating and drinking of the bodie and blood of Christ would dispute so loosely as he doth against the Manichies must needs thinke withall that his wits were in a deeper traunce than Saint Peters and so fitter to gather wooll than to confute heretickes The Dialogue Sectio XVII I Will leaue this knot for you to vnloose at better leasure and assay you with another argument to prooue the a This will you neuer prooue while you liue nor your child after you consent of all ancient Fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church in this doctrine of transubstantiation but first I will set downe certaine places out of the Fathers whereon to ground mine argument although I haue alreadie vsed the same places for the proofe of prayer for the dead This Custome saith b These places are answered all of them Saint Austine the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by tradition from the Elders that whereas at the time of the Sacrifices commemoration is made of all soules departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them De verb. Apost Sermone 32. You shall also finde that there was a Sacrifice offered for the quicke and dead in Saint Ambrose his first prayer Praeparans ad missam and in Tertullians Booke de Monogamia about the middest of the Booke the place beginneth dic mihi soror in pace c. Hereby it is manifest that c How many ages were they I pray you in all these ages the Church did d That is to say Signum repraesentationem sacrificij Aug. de ciuit dei lib. 10. cap. 15 offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which being agréed vpon
doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses 1. Iohn 1.1 saying that which we haue heard which wee haue seene with these our eies which wee haue looked vpon these hands haue handled of that word of life that I say which we haue seene and heard declare we vnto you not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists but that you may haue felloship with vs and that our fellowship may be with the father and with his sonne Iesus Christ Now touching humane reason I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it or without it if with it let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist if without it I doubt he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion much lesse conuert Infidels It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason because Saint Paul saith Rom. 1 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome yet the same Paul saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God is ingraffed in the heart of man whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him and Peter Lumbard Lib. 3 dist 24. his owne Prophet saith Quaedā fide creduntur quae intelliguntur naturali ratione Something 's are beleeued by faith which are vnderstood by naturall reason But to make short worke Paul saith indeed that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God and God forbid we should denie it but yet the same Apostle presently after saith 1. Cor. 2.14 c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men and Protestants naturall men and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure Againe where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead the mystery of the Trinitie the eternitie of the sonne of God the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut and such like Articles of our Christian faith as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament you may see the pure simplicitie of this man who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore to be an Article of faith Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created and Saint Austine saith Lib. 1. dist 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes Trinitatem intelligamus It behooueth vs that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created should vnderstand the Trinitie Againe Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Of the resurrection of the dead Tertullian Athenagoras wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome and that the father is Fons origo Deitatis as sol is fons origo lucis The fountaine and originall of the Godhead as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason that the son of God may be begotten yet coeternal with God his father but I shal not need to labor further in this point there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce Phil. Morney wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these such like articles of Christianity therfore if an infidel flie to humane reason he shal haue some stay to leane vpō in matters of faith wheras neither he nor we nor any man els liuing can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures Fathers Councels so to driue him to appeale to reason Paul saith that prophecying serueth not for infidels but for them which beleeue 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine and must be won by signes not by prophecying as for Fathers Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell and besides that infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides Menander and Aratus Tit. 1.12 Plato Hesiode and Homer such like than of our Fathers and Councels yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie yet if you cleaue to his faith not to your owne reason in the reall presence you cannot choose but be an hereticke Dial 2. in con The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie after the priest hath inuocated are charged made other shings and this doth Theodoret euidētly declare in one of his Dialogues where the hereticke saith Symbola dominici corporis sanguinis post inuocationē sacerdotis mutantur et alia fiunt And this he speakes of a substantial change as our Papists do at this day but the Catholicke answereth Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua manent enim in priori substantia figura forma Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church written almost 1200. yeeres agoe giuing cleerely to vnderstand that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time but hereticall what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence than by the bold face of this Papist whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie Council Florent sess vltima that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper See then what ill lucke this poore man hath that both his vniforme consents faile him the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence the other by Saint Iohns Gospel where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament all the foure Euangelists quoth he how I pray you in thought word or deed marry saith he in direct and plaine words Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him but the fourth saith nothing Matthew Marke say that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration is the fruit of the vine Math. 26.29 Mar. 14.25 cap. 22 20. and Luke saith that the cup is the new Testament in his blood now if you vnderstand by the cup not wine but reall blood it will follow
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
and a surplussage to be bestowed vpon others which you terme workes of supererrogation your doctrine of free-will whereby you doe attribute vnto man an absolute power to doe all good workes and thereby to merite heauen And your doctrine of the keys whereby you doe attribute to the Pope and his Priests power to forgiue the sinnes both of the quicke and dead an easie way to heauen for such as haue money and are disposed so to dispose it is not this doctrine as contrarie to the word of God as light vnto darkenesse Pap. I will answere you herein as briefely as I can desiring you first to a VVhich you seeme not to vnderstand your selfe vnderstand rightly the doctrine of the Church of Rome in these points and then to iudge indifferently First therefore concerning iustification by workes we doe hold with Dauid that the iust man offendeth b Then must hee doe seuen good workes else can he not bee iustified by workes 7. * Pr. 24 16. It is Salomon not Dauid nor doth Salomon say seuen times a day that is no addition to the text times a day we doe acknowledge also the death of Christ to be sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world we doe confesse that euery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue and that our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth yet we doe hold therewithall that our good workes such as they are being clensed in the bloud of Christ are both c They may be acceptable but meritorious they cannot be acceptable vnto God and meritorious which we doe ground vpon the promise of our Sauiour Christ where he saith he that giueth to one of these little ones a cup of cold water shall not want his d VVhat reward temporall or eternall or what reward grace goeth before and draweth vs vnto good workes our will consenteth and worketh together with the grace of God so that as S. Austine saith Tractat. 3. primi cap. Iohannis God crowneth his owne gifts in vs and giueth vs grace for grace this is our Doctrine of Iustification by workes wherein we doe e Then nothing that is good in man can merite ascribe whatsoeuer is good in man vnto God as vnto the Fountaine attributing nothing vnto our selues f This tale will hardly agree within it selfe but the libertie of our will whereby to apprehend the grace of God offered vnto vs which frée will also we doe acknowledge to be the gift of God Concerning the merits of dead Saints we doe hold that as God doth may times spare the wicked for the righteous that are liuing among them and shewe mercie vnto thousands in them that loue him and kéepe his commaundements euen so he doth many times spare the liuing for the righteous sake that are departed hence g You are deceiued it doth not appeare there as appeareth in the 2. of the Kings Cap. 13. Where you shall find that the Children of Israell were deliuered from the hand of King Aram for Abraham Isaak and Iacobs sake whereby h You must prooue it better before I can see it you sée that the merits of dead Saints are auaileable vnto the liuing whereupon we may conclude further that if the children of Israel were spared for Abrahams sake who was dead that it was lawfull for the Iewes to pray vnto God that he would deliuer them i That is for the couenant sake made with Abrahā which being graunted you are at a stop for Abrahams sake which being graunted why is it not as lawfull for Christians to pray vnto God to be mercifull vnto their sinnes for Saint Peter and Saint Pauls sake This Doctrine was beléeued and practised in the Church in Saint Austines time as appeareth Can. 40. Meditationum where he prayeth to be deliuered from all euill by the praiers of the Patriarkes by the merits of the Prophets c. And more than this the Church of Rome doth not attribute vnto the merits of Saints The Answere HEere our Protestant layeth three capitall errours to the charge of the Church of Rome First iustification by our owne workes and the merites of dead Saints Secondly free-will to merite heauen Thirdly forgiuing sinnes by the power of the keys Mar. 2 7 Luk. 5 21. which the Scribes and Pharisies as blind as they were knew and professed to be blasphemous herein I will answere you saith our Papist as briefely as I can yea but when shall wee haue your briefe answere Marry first I must desire you saith he to vnderstand rightly the doctrine of Rome in these points Well but will you then be so good as answere vs as briefely as you can Yes marrie will I for I will say nothing at all and that 's as briefe an answere as can be deuised Thus this mans pleasure is to delude vs with expectation of an answere which hee God wote is not able to afford vs and therefore we must be content with we hold and we confesse and what 's that thinke you Marry the iust man offendeth dayly the death of Christ is sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world and our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth which is sufficient to perswade any man that is not contentious that we are not iustified by our workes for that which is sufficient needeth not to be pieced and patched with a polluted clowt of our righteousnesse yea but our workes iustifie not so long as they bee polluted but after they are clensed in the blood of Christ and so they are both acceptable and meritorious Alas man that 's not the question whether they be acceptable and meritorious but whether they iustifie and the filly fellow himselfe telling vs that our workes are clensed in the blood of Christ tels vs withall that we are iustified not by our workes Act. 15 9 Mar. 7 21. that want clensing but by faith in the blood of Christ which clenseth our works and makes them acceptable howbeit all the world together in a heape will neuer be able to proue that works polluted with an arrogant conceit or intention of iustifying can bee possibly clensed in the blood of Christ his blood can no way else clense that which euacuateth his crosse and passion but by taking it away quite and reforming the proud conceits of such heretickes And touching meritoriousnesse the verie name is odious to the seruants of God Paul saith 1. Cor. 4 4. Luk. 17 10. I know nothing by my selfe yet am I not thereby iustified and our Sauiour hath taught vs to say wee are vnprofitable seruants and haue done that which our dutie bound vs vnto when wee haue done all that is commaunded but what should I labour to take away merites which this man himselfe groundeth vppon the promise of Christ Genes 15 6. Ro. 4 3 9 13. Galat. 3.18 22 c. I hope the promise of Christ was free and must be layd hold vpon by faith not workes as Abraham did for
euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
with Iohn Caluine as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done I doubt not but that although he would not haue allowed of traditions yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word as hée hath done for the Sabbath for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon you will make any homely shift rather than you wil acknowledge the true i Tradition a fountaine in Poperie fountaine from whence it springeth and no maruell for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions which k If you may doe what you lift we cannot stand by the testimonie of all antiquitie were first deliuered by the Apostles and haue euer since béen obserued and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops and your heresie wil fall to the ground The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture is that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell Pro. It is manifest that in the infancy of the church the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time which in the Gospell were abolished and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ whereof abstayning from bloud is one and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem was vpon this occasion they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized because the Gentiles who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith had vtterly reiected their law whervpon much controuersie did arise between them the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised and to obserue the lawe of Moses and the Gentiles to the contrarie For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood by eating whereof as it seemeth the weake Iewes were greatly offended intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs. Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion eating of bloud which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell and to christians in the Gospell is now lawfull for vs to doe that the law prescribed to the Iewes concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie is still to be retained and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue is to be abolished that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified with many other such like instances too long to repeat when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures you shall finde n Else are you deceiued no other warrant for them than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie which is warrant sufficient for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place for the text saith onely There is a o The fornication had not been so haynous if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law fornication among you not once named among the heathen that a man should haue his fathers wife it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place that the Fornication here specified was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p All this is but vaine talke that helpes him not awhit for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated as it may be gathered out of the text for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths and therefore this Fornication was committed by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore and not as a wife as you imagine The Answere YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds which wee by our description of the Church haue giuen to our owne cause and therefore your description must bee had in memorie which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ sounding in the canonicall Scriptures so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ and so erre whereby the first wound is fully healed and if it should be graunted that the Church in generall cannot erre yet it followeth not that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation is therefore no member of the Church And so the second wound which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers Doctors is neither mortall nor sensible Now touching the first wound which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane it is here brought to certaine particular points which I will speake of in order The first is the obseruation of the Sunday which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture after this manner 1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached receiuing the Sacraments and giuing of Almes that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians 2. But the Apostles did ordaine that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purpose before mentioned Ergo The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath Now where your Papist saith That if the Maior were true then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
so by consequent of the Churches of Asia notwithstanding all he said before of their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents shall I now tell you what I thinke verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter and that other of the age of Christ so credibly reported so confidently auouched deliuered ouer to so few hands and so short a succession were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles and at length as the receiued opinion is condemned for heresie I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled which haue no such pregnant euidence and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus Yea but saith he this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued but onely of those Churches in Asia and therefore we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it as a Tradition from the Apostles well then succession from hand to hand and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall let him hold that without partialitie as well in Italy as in Asia Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall and so vniuersall in nature though particular in practise but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul that is to say thirtie winters at the least and so many sommers wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten shall we follow S. Austines rule here too and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ware that friend Papist if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke yet it is cleare that the Tradition of the west Church was not vniuersally receiued no more then the other of the East before the Nicene Councell therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn nay further we reade not that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few Euseb in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. 19. Can. 8. Apost should yeelde to the greater number now whether they yeelded or yeelded not we haue no sure euidence onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen as for that peremptory magisterial Canon which casteth euery Bishop Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations and so continued by long custome till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie Now to Augustines rule beside a number of instances which may be brought against it as namely the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture Apostle Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr in epist ad Tot. Aug. epist 19. nor Councell but old custome as also the appropriating of the name Bishop to the chiefe Ministers wherein the custome of the Church no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled to this rule I say that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued but eyther Traditions from the Apostles or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels it is cleere that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores and therefore to requite the intricate Dilemma he talkes of let me reason thus with your Papist The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ or else he hath not if hee haue then Austines rule is crooked and may deceiue vs if he haue not then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church is come to nothing Howbeit I beseech you marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule for if all things obserued vniuersally must be followed and imbraced as Traditions from the Apostles if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels then no man may presume vpon any alteration of states and times to abolish them if they may abolish them and alter them then are they not bound to follow imbrace them adde hereunto that as the Apostles successors as hee saith might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions generally practised in the vniuersall Church so I would see some reason why they may not stil vpon the like alteration of circumstances abolish more of them and so it will follow that all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture hangs vpon circumstances and may if it please the Apostles successors be quite abolished hath he not spun a faire threed thinke you that thus indangereth his owne religion yet he croweth lowd after all this fond feather-fluttering that all is as cleare as the Sunne yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church one or other set downe this remnant of Traditions and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not as cleare as the Sunne and it is further to bee obserued how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes Are kept he is not content with Custodiuntur which he findes in Austine but addeth haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition popish or catholicke vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age such an one as Sir Francis Drake that should trauell all the worlde ouer from
Dialogue Sectio VII SAint Austine Pompous funerals great troups of mourners sumptuous monuments these doe bring some cōfort such as it is vnto the liuing but they are not auaileable vnto the dead but we ought a VVhat is it that puts the matter out of doubt let that be shewed and we will doubt no longer not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church by the holesome sacrifice and by almes which are giuen that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them than their sinnes haue deserued This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by Tradition a Austine saith a patribus not ab Apostolis from the Apostles that whereas at the time of the sacrifice commemoration is made of b All communicants and onely communicants are prayed for is this catholicke doctrine think you all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them de verb. Apost sermon 32. We ought c Nor wee ought not to say it vnlesse we could proue it not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued by the deuotion of their liuing friends when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them or almes giuen in the Church Enchir. ad Laurent prope fin When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God they are not prayed for but d VVhat all confessors bishops popes and all all other which are dead which are there remembred are prayed for de verb. Apostol serm 17. When the sacrifice whether it bee of the altar or of almes déedes is offered for such as are dead e VVhy not before as well as after you may as well offer for the vnbaptized as for those that be valdé mali after Baptisme for those that be very good they be thanksgiuing for those which be not very euil they be propitiatory for those which be very euill although they profit not the dead yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing Dulcitij question quest 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis This was no doubt S. Austines f Or else you know not what faith is faith which he wrote taught and practised in his church and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches The Answere AVstine belike is plentifull in this question for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes which we will briefely runne ouer as they come In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition prayer for the dead was no more but a Tradition of the fathers here Austine is intreated to say that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time Decad. 4. serm 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades Illud dissimulare non possum saith he id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus inquit traditū vniuersa obseruat ecclesia c. This I cannot hide that that which they call a traditō of the Apostles Quest 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church see Serm. de verbis Apostoli 32. This saith he being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue And a litle after cōcludeth His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritū orandi pro defunctis haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorū ab ecclesia receptū esse By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate that this custome of praying for the dead was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid pro quo in so materiall a testimonie argueth a peruerse resolution rather to quench the fire of truth than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed But for answere I say that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur non abhorret quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae Whether men suffer these things onely in this life or whether after this life some such iudgements follow this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of truth as I suppose Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum siue hic ibi siue ideo hic vt non ibi saecularia quamuis à damnatione venialia concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo quia forsitan verum est Whether thinges committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely or here and there or therfore here because not there I seek not to conuince because perhaps it is true and in his Enchiridion Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est vtrum ita sit quaeri potest That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible and whether it bee so done it is a question Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt whether the dead be releeued by our prayers Moreouer it is here likewise to be obserued that no soule were praied or offered for or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. lib. 1 de peccat merit remiss Concil 6. cap. 83. Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times that none but Communicants could be saued and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly as any other tradition that the Eucharist as well as Baptisme was necessary to the saluation of all euen of new borne babes wherof it cōmeth that the bread wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants and dead carkasses both in the Greeke and Latine Churches Forasmuch then as this place of Austine teacheth two points of generall doctrine one that prayers Sacrifices and almes doe profite the dead the other that none can bee saued but Communicants and so prayers and sacrifices and doles to bee made for no other we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other Furthermore these
Offices of the liuing are here sayd to procure greater mercie at Gods hands than the sinnes of the dead haue deserued where obserue that the sway of the time so carried both Paulinus and Austine two worthy renowned Bishops that the one would not yeeld though he could not tell how to answere Saint Pauls authoritie 2. Cor. 5.10 Cap. 7. par 3. and the other sheltered himselfe as Denys doth in his Hierarchy vnder a short heeld answere that 's readie to fall backward if you do but look vpon it Paul saith We must receiue euery man according to that he hath done in the bodie either good or euill Here Paulinus is at his wits end and cannot tell how this can agree with prayers sacrifices almes and the Patronage of dead Martyrs and such like humane inuentions and yet he stickes in the mire still and desires Austine to help him out see now how Austine answeareth Meritum per quod ista profint si nullum comparatum est in hac vita frustra quaeritur post hanc vitam If there be no merit by which these things may doe good Libr. de cura pro mortu Cap. 1. gotten in this life it is in vaine to seek it after this life And a little after Vt hoc quod impenditur possit ei prodesse post corpus in ea vita acquisitum est quam gessit in corpore That this which is bestowed may profit him after the bodie it is purchased in this life which hee liued in the bodie But what merite is this hee talkes of doth it respect God or man if man then man must reward it if God why the Apostle assureth vs by Cōmission frō God 2. Cor. 5.10 that we shall receiue good according to that good we haue done in the flesh and therfore all such praiers sacrifices are superfluous again the praiers sacrifices of the liuing depending vpon our former merits must needs procure either lesse or the same or more mercy than wee haue merited in our life time if lesse then they hinder vs if the same then do they not further vs if more then doe we not receiue according to the good that we haue done in the body as Paul saith but according to the praiers sacrifices of our friends Here your Papist hath a Dilemma a Trilemma too to worke vpon if he can do any thing Austine Paulinus shall be beholding to him if nothing thē Paul the Apostle must haue the victory In the mean time the verie same Dilemma and Trilemma too must repell the force of the next place cited out of Austines Enchiridion Cap. 100. for there Austine addeth immediatly Sed eis hac prosunt qui cum viuerēt vt haec sibi postea prodesse possēt meruerunt But these things profit thē who when they liued deserued that they might profit them afterward Wherfore Austine vsing the same shift to rid his hands of Saint Pauls authority Vid. Lumb Eb. 4. distinct 45. D. I must vse the same answere to defend it if two men of equall merite be inequally rewarded because prayers and sacrifices are offered for the one and not for the other then euerie man receiueth not according to that himselfe hath done in the flesh but according to that other men doe for him when he is out of the flesh Howbeit this second place of Austine speakes not of prayers but sacrifices and almes giuen in the Church which belongeth to the fourth point of doctrine to wit sacrifice for the quicke and dead if your Papist thinke that sacrifice and prayers goe together let him take heed hee bee not deceiued for Cyprian speaking of Laurentius and Ignatius Martyrs saith thus Lib. 4. Epist 5. de verb. Apo. serm 17. in Ioh. tract 84. Sacrificia pro eis semper vt meministis offerimus We alwayes as you know offer sacrifices for them Yet Austine saith that Martyrs are not prayed for and that it is iniurious to pray for them but because hee dispatcheth two of his points at once let this place and some other of Cyprian strike some stroke in this question of Sacrifice wee offer Sacrifices for Martyrs saith he Quoties Martyrum passiones dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus As often as wee celebrate the sufferings dayes of the Martyrs with a yeerely remembrance And this sacrificing pro Martyribus Austine himselfe confesseth to be nothing else but praise thankesgiuing and so hee celebrated the day of Cyprians Martyrdome yea but though Martyrs bee not prayed for Serm. de Cyp. Mart. in oper Cypr. when they are remembred at the Altar yet all other which are there mentioned are prayed for saith Austine in the third place and in the last place sacrifices saith he for those that be Valdè boni verie good be thankesgiuing but for those that be not Valde mali Verie euill they bee propitiatorie I see what Saint Austine saith yet all other beside Martyrs stood not in need of releefe as namely the Patriarckes the Prophets the Apostles the Euangelists the Confessors the Bishops the Anachorits and our most holy vnspotted most blessed Ladie Gods Mother the Virgine Marie All these I trowe were not Martyrs yet were they all prayed for in the lyturgies of Basile Chrysostome and Epiphanius not to releeue them but to glorifie God in his seruants and to profite the Church by commemoration of their vertues it cannot be denied but God blessed his Church continually with many such as were Valde boni beside Martyrs and therfore either prayers and Sacrifices go not alwayes one way or els some of these places of Austine must needs fall Howbeit to returne to Saint Cyprian we read that it was decreed by his predecessors that if any brother at his death should leaue the execution of his will to any of the Clergie he should not be offered nor sacrificed for now followeth the approbation and practise of this decree in in these words Cum victor frater noster de saeculo excedens contra formam nuper in concilio à sacerdotibus datam Libr. 1. epist 9. Gemintum Faustinum praesbyterum ausus sit actorem constituere non est quo pro dormitione eius apud vos fiat oblatio aut de precatio aliqua nomine eius in ecclesia frequentetur vt sacerdotum decretum religiosè necessariè factum seruetur c. Seeing victor our brother departing out of this world durst contrary to the order taken of late by the Priests in the Councell appoint Geminius Faustinus a Priest his executor there is no reason why you should make any offering for his decease or that the Church should meete to deprecation for his sake that the religious and necessarie ordinance of the Priests may be obserued Thus farre Cyprian out of which I gather that if these offerings and sacrifices and deprecations had bin made for refrigeration of soules departed then Cyprian and his Collegues and predecessors that made and executed
euangelium demonstrat inferos intelligimus nouissimum quadrantem modicum delictum mora resurrectionis illic luendū interpretamur nemo dubitauit animam aliquid pensare penes inferos salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnem quoque When we vnderstand by the prison which the Gospell speaketh of hell interpret the last farthing a small sin to be done away by the delaying of the resurrection no man will doubt that the soule doth pay something in hell leauing the rest to be fulfilled at the resurrection by the flesh also Here we finde somewhat like purgatorie though I dare not say it is the same but let it be so if you will Now see what followeth in the same place immediately Hoc Paracletus frequentissimè commendauit si quis sermones eius ex agnitione charismatum promissorum admiserit This the Paraclete hath often commended if a man admit his saying by acknowledging the promised graces Where you may learne that doctrine was knockt into Tertullians head by his familiar that is by the Paraclete of Montanus Yea but why dare you not say that this prison is Purgatorie doe you aske why Marry the verie wordes make me to stand doubtfull namely per carnem quoque by the flesh also which to my vnderstanding import that the soule only must not feele smart but caro quoque the flesh also and good reason it should be so for if nothing can enter into the kingdome of heauen before it bee purified and wee know that the modica delicta small sinnes as well as other capitall sins taint the body as well as the soule wee must needes deuise a Purificatorie for the one as well as a Purgatorie for the other and so hold with Tertullian that the soule before the resurrection shall suffer per se by it selfe and after the resurrection per carnem quoque else all is marred Robert Bellarmine the new Cardinall saw this place of Tertullian I dare say for him yet he passeth it ouer slightly citeth another place for purgatory out of the same booke Ille id est angelus executionis te in carcerem mandet infernum Bellar. de purg lib. 1. cap. 4. cap. 6. vnde non dimittaris nisi modico quoque delicto mora resurrectionis expenso He that is to say the Angel of execution shall cast thee into infernall prison whence thou shalt not come out till euery little sinne be paid for by the delay of the resurrection This place he cites in two seuerall places and giues vs a speciall note to carry away with vs Nota solum esse manendum in carcere purgatorij ad summū vsque ad resurrectionē But alas good father Robert the other place marres the fashion of this note for it addes Salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnē quoque which giueth vs a new note that both soule and body must likewise suffer in this infernall prison after the resurretion I doubt when all is come to all this prison will prooue to be hell not purgatory yet such a hell as the millinarie heresie dreamed to be temporall not eternall wherefore I hope your papist will no more seeke the beleefe and practise of the Church in Tertullian Ierom contra Heluid who was not of the Church nor looke any more in Tertullians mouth for his age telling vs that he liued neere vnto the Apostles till he can proue his doctrine to be apostolicall The names of Epiphanius Ambrose Austine and Chrysostome are repeated heere for a shew but you haue heard what priuate conference I had with them whereunto adde that their witnesse being single men cannot iustly be accepted for a publike record of religion whereunto Luther of any other seruant of God may not oppose himselfe they liued in a manner altogether they could not see ouer farre either before or behind or about them neither is it conuenient that wee should make an idoll of mans authoritie a great sort of fathers agree that Elias shall come before the last day Mat. 17.12 yet I had rather beleeue Christ that saith Elias is come already many of the fathers say the wicked a thousand yeres after domes day Lib. 2. cap. 39. 40. shal be saued yet by your leaue I had rather say otherwise Irenaeus held that Christ was nere fiftie yeres old when he was put to death and proued it by the common consent of all the Bishops of Asia that learned it of S. Iohn yet may we not beleeue that this was then beleeued through the vniuersall Church Tertullian in his Apologie for the Christian Churches of his time saith that the soule cannot suffer any thing Sine stabili materia id est earne Yet may we not beleeue that Christians beleeued so through the world The same father saith in the same Apologie that Christians did thē publikely pray Pro mora finis yet were it hard to say after him Apoc. 22.20 that the whole Church praied against the appearing of Christ in the clouds to vanquish death and to accomplish their redemption S. Iohn prayed Come Lord Iesu come quickely And therefore I dare not say the Church euer prayed Stay Lord Iesu and come slowly Howbeit let the Catholike fathers haue all the credite honor that bare men be capable of we will not stand against it but to throw down so many kingdoms so many dukedoms so many flourishing Common-weales so many free cities Churches as if the bare affirmation of one man did ouerrule them it is too much indignitie if Luthers bare affirmation be so mightie in operation let not your Papist his companions call any more for miracles to confirme his vocation but if it be the breath of Gods mouth that began in him in his time more powerfully to consume Antichrist then in former ages thē feare friend Papist I say feare the reuenging hand of God who wil not suffer his power to be derided The Dialogue Sectio XI Purgatorie ALl the proofes before alleaged for prayer for the dead may as well serue for the proofe of Purgatorie for such is the relation betweene the one and the other as a This is but a conceit looke the answere they cannot be separated For why doe wee pray for the dead the answere is made by S. Chrysostome that b Some prayd to that ende without warrant and some to other endes c. as shall appeare they may attaine to rest that they may find the iudge fauourable whereof it followeth that they are in a place where they want rest where they haue néed of refreshing yet I will alleage some few places for the peculiar proofe thereof Saint Austine expounding the place of Saint Paul the third to the Corinths if any man shall build vpon this foundation c. saith thus c These places are not Austines many there be that by misunderstanding this place doe deceiue themselues with a false securitie beléeuing that if they doe build vpon the
that Christ had twoo bloods or a double blood for then is it all one as if Saint Luke reported our Sauiour to haue spoken thus This blood conteined in this cup is the new Testament in my blood Againe all these three Euangelists say This is my body where the demonstratiue pronowne must needs shew some visible thing or other els our Sauiour dallied with his disciples willing them to take and eat when they saw nothing the disciples themselues were witlesse to reach out their hands to take and eat that which they saw not neuer asking where the thing was which our Sauiour spake of now what was this visible thing trow ye the body of Christ they say is inuisible if we say it was a lump of accidents theÌ„ we must imagine our Sauior to speak thus this lumpe of accidents is my body which cannot be taken directly and plainely as the words lie without figure and therefore that sense may not be abidden what then can this visible thing be but bread which our Sauiour did breake and his disciples did eate whereas neither breaking nor eating can agree either to accidents or the inuiolable body of Christ But goe too let vs admit that our Sauiour spake thus after the Catholicke fashion this that lieth hid inuisibly vnder these visible accidents is my body then will it follow inanswerably either that Christ had two bodies one visible that spake to the disciples another inuisible that lay hid vnder accidents or else if both were but one bodie by miracle that the same one body is both visible and inuisible at once which is impossible yea but God is omnipotent and nothing is to God impossible yes by your leaue and so will Peter Lumbard tell you Lib. 1. dist 24. if it please you to heare him Howbeit because the popish doctrine of transubstantiation cannot be maintained vnlesse we hold that the bodie of Christ is visible and not visible at once and also circumscribed and not circumscribed at one and the same time I will set you downe the iudgement of Saint Thomas of Aquine who auoucheth in plaine and direct termes that these contradictions cannot be auoided by appealing to Gods omnipotencie whereunto they are not subiect these bee his wordes Sum part 1. quaest 25. artiâ— 3. Quicquid potest habere rationem entis continetur sub possibilibus absolutisre spectu quoruÌ„ deus dicitur omnipotens nihil autem opponitur rationi entis nisi non ens hoc igitur repugnat rationi possibilis absoluti quod subditur diuinae omnipotentiae quod implicat in se esse non esse simul hoc enim omnipotentiae non subditur non propter defectum diuinae potentiae sed quia non potest habere rationem factibilis neque possibilis quaecunque igitur contradictionem non implicant subillis possibilibus continentur respectu quorum dicitur Deus omnipotens ea vero qua contradictionem implicant sub diuina omnipotentia non continentur quia non possunt habere possibilium rationem vnde conuenientiùs dicitur quod ea non possunt fieri quà m quod Deus ea non possit facere Luke 1 37 neque hoc est contra verbum angeli dicentis non erit impossibile apud Deum omne verbum id enim quod contradictionem implicat verbum esse non potest quia nullus intellectus potest illud concipere Whatsoeuer hath the reason of ens is conteined vnder absolute possibilities in regard whereof God is called omnipotent now nothing is contrary to the reason of ens but non ens this is therefore contrary to the reason of absolute possibility which is subiect to the omnipotency of God which implieth in it to be and not to be at one instant now this is not subiect to omnipotency not for any defect of power in God but because the same thing cannot haue the reason of possible to be done and impossible whatsoeuer things therefore doe not imply contradiction are contained vnder those possibilities whereof God is called omnipotent but the things which imply contradiction are not conteyned vnder Gâ—ds omnipotency because they cannot haue the reason of possibilities whereupon it is more fitly sayd that these things cannot be done than that God cannot doe them neither is this against the speech of the Angel which sayd No word shall be impossible with God for that which implyeth contradiction is not a word for no vnderstanding can conceiue it Thus hath S. Thomas the Angelicall doctor the crowne and foretop of all poperie dragged out transubstantiation by the heeles from vnder the shelter of Gods omnipotencie and will not suffer such popish contradictions and impossibilities as it is maintained by to haue any succour in the almightinesse of Gods power The Dialogue Sectio XIX Prayers to Saints IDeòque habet ecclesiastica disciplina quod fideles nouerunt cùm Martyres eo loco recitantur ad altare Dei ibi non pro ipsis oretur pro caeteris autem commemoratis defunctis oretur iniuria est enim pro Martyre orare cuius nos debemus orationibus commendari and therefore it is the practise of the Church as the faithfull doe know that when as mention is made of the Martyrs at the altar of God they are not prayed for as others are who are departed for it is an iniury to pray for a Martyr vnto whose prayers we ought to a Not by praying to them after they are dead commend our selues Austine de verbis Apostoli sermone 17. Ideo quippe ad ipsam mensam non sic Martyres commemoramus quemadmodum alios qui in pace requiescunt vt etiam pro eis oremus sed magis vt orent ipsi pro nobis vt eorum vestigijs hereamus quia impleuerunt ipsi charitatem qua Dominus dixit non posse esse maiorem and therefore at the Lords table we doe not b Augustine doth not say here we should pray to Martyrs make mention of the Martyrs as wee doe of others that rest in peace to the intent to pray for them also but rather that they should pray for vs that we may constantly follow their steps c. Sancta Maria succurre miseris c. c Cauendum ne dum matris excellentia amplietur filij gloria minuatur c. Bonauent in 3. dist 3. quest 2. VVe must take heede least while the excellencie of the mother is enlarged the glorie of the sonne bee diminished Holy Mâ—rie succour vs wretches helpe vs that are weake hearted comfort vs that mourne pray for the people c. Austine de Sanctis d These sermons be none of Austines sermone 18. reade also the 35. sermon de Sanctis The Answere THis point of popish doctrine may well be called a doctrine of diuels and therefore wee answere them that defend it and vrge it vpon vs as our Sauiour answered the deuill Matth. 4.10 Deuter. 10.20 Rom. 10.14 auoyd Satan for it is written thou shalt worship the
weakenesse shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine and euery testimonie thereto belonging whereof you may gather that this second wound is easily healed I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas doth not prooue them to be of two Churches or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke The ancient Fathers were men and might erre and did erre many of them together euen whole Councels as it is apparant to the world yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church No friend Papist though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine as they likewise discented from such as were before them yet all of vs hold one foundation and it was no part of their beleefe that such as held not these points were out of the Church neither is it any part of our beleefe Ad Fortunatianum Epist 111. that such as held them were damned Heretickes Austine saith Catholicorum laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus vt nobis non liceat saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere We ought not to haue the same in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men as the canonicall scriptures that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men disallow and refuse something in their writings And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine Epist 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie Austine is bold to answere him thus Solis eis scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt sed quia per illos authores canonicos vel probobabili ratione quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerūt I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures which are now called Canonicall to beleeue assuredly that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing But others I read so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth The Dialogue Sectio XXIII PRo The Doctors did erre grosly in many things as you must of force cōfesse therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon Austine wrote his Retractations in the doctrin of purgatorie which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie he was so a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle doubtfull and wauering that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully as fieri potest it may be that there is such a thing forsitan ita est peraduentute it is so sometime he seemeth to affirme it and sometime he flatly denieth it Irenaeus held that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages Hilarie held that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers and find in them many such points of doctrine which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie Now tell me why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church by refusing some of their opinions more than you doe exclude them out your Church by refusing of other some or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one as it is for you to reiect it in the other or why may not I argue as you doe against vs that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time did imbrace the same or if that their said opinions had bene erroneous that some men or other would haue impugned thē by writing Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points b VVhere or whē here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order first therefore I must not denie that the doctors were men and that they were not without their blemishes and errors c VVe must d sappoint you of your hope Looke the answere hoping that you will also confesse that they were such men as for their great learning and piety haue euer bene admired and had in high reuerence of all posteritie and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ To erre is incident to mans frailtie and to d As you papists doe persist in an errour is brutish but to e As you papists cannot abide to doe acknowledge and recant an errour is the worke of the holy Ghost and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it but if you doe f VVe insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes infinuate by alleaging of his Retractations that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes the booke is extant let the iudge be brought foorth your next allegation whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie is the instabilitie of his g His doctrine touching purgatorie but now simply as you insinuate doctrine for one while say you he affirmeth another he denieth another he doubteth it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion and how after his conuersion hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h Beleeue not vs but your owne eyes look and peruse the places beleeueth you herein must also beléeue therewithall that S. Austine had neither learning wit nor regard of his repuputation but let vs admit that such foule blots as you do pretend had dropped from his pen is it not like think you that in his i VVhat if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractatiōs how then Retractations they should haue bin discouered and
the other why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours Pro. You shall find in the Fathers as many places against those points of doctrine as you shall find for them and besides that many bookes fathered vpon the fathers are bastards Pa. It is a great argument of a y It will at length pull the crowne from your Popes head as desperate as you make it desperate cause when we sée the authoritie of any authenticke writer so plaine and direct against vs as it cannot be auoyded by any glosse or colourable interpretation to seeke to euade by carping at contrarietie in the same writer and in so doing wée shall shew our selues more desirous to obscure a truth than to bring it to light touching your last obiection I am content vpon any reasonable cause of challenge to forbeare to vouch any booke that you shall suspect of bastardy Thus haue I answered all your cauils and calumniations obiected against the auncient doctors which is your last refuge for when you cannot tell how by some cunning interpretation or glosse to vnloose the knot your manner is to cut it in sunder and to breake away The Answere WEe are come now to a great deale of void talke of the errors of the fathers and doctors and Austines retracting and wauering in the doctrine of purgatorie The first is confessed not simply but vnder hope that wee will also confesse that the doctors were not onely admired for their learning pietie but accepted also for the principall workemen next vnto the Apostles which cannot be confessed without iniurie to the Euangelists and other that had extraordinary graces and power from aboue a long time after the Apostles Iren. lib. 2. 28. lib. 5. 1. Eusebius histo eccles lib. 3. 34 lib. 5. 7. 9. as appeareth in Irenaeus and Eusebius besides that we may not thinke a few fathers whose writings remaine extant to be excellenter workemen than a thousand other whose writings are lost and their names forgotten in the world These few doctors whose bookes wee haue were worthy men yet one more worthy than another and no one of them nor all of them together to be preferred to those that were before them And heere let it be obserued that Tertullian as he is a Montanist is set down for one of of these admirable doctors of the Church for he erred not in the case of second marriages while he was a Catholicke doctor but when he was an hereticke and fallen from the Church nay see further how intollerably hee defaceth the fathers when he goeth about to magnifie for if they looke vpon them to handle high mysteries beyond their capacitie and were caried in heat against heresie to the contrary extreame verily their learning and piety may well be doubted of and if they could not see the trueth vnlesse it were called into question determined by the Church there is no great reason why they should be so highly admired and had in reuerence What man why say you so the doctors had their errors and imperfections no otherwise then Saint Peter had whom Saint Paul withstood to his face and will you not admire and reuerence Saint Peter Yes sir that I will for wee speake not here of errors in liuing which neuer any but Christ was free from but errors in writing whereof Saint Peter was neuer guiltie and therefore bethinke you how this suspicious and irreuerend calling of Saint Peters credite into question to cloake the fathers errours withall can be the part of a good Catholicke we beleeue Saint Peter neuer erred in any thing he hath written but you shal hardly driue vs with all your wharting to beleeue the like of our new writers or your old doctors much lesse the autors of prophane Histories but why keepes this man all this doe trow ye would he haue vs pinne our religion vpon the sleeues of the doctors and ciuill Historiographers too will nothing else please him Yes hee tels you he will be content if you will credit an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers doctors producing themselues for eye witnesses and a thousand other like witnesses with them well when I heare those thousand other speake then he shall haue my answere In the meane while haue we commended to him and tell him that I cannot beleeue a million of thousands when they say nothing and heere I beseech you note how his wit ebbes and his tongue flowes beyond the bankes of all possibilitie they write saith he that praying and sacrificing for the dead was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and hard and saw it done and thousands moe with them c. Quid audio Did they heare and see it done in all Churches vniuersally this is no lie my Lord and that 's all that I will say to it Now touching Austine we so much the more admire him in that he retracted his former errors as many as hee could well-obserue in his owne workes neither doe wee doubt but that he would haue retracted more if he had liued longer could haue considered deliberately of all that hee had written howbeit he wrote diuers bookes after his retractations neither could he so narrowly looke into euery corner of his workes but that many things worthy to be retracted slipt through his fingers to be short his retractations do euidently shew that as he was a good and an honest minded man so he altered in opinion as hee grew in yeeres and was better instructed by long experience and trauell in diuinitie and so consequently that he is so farre forth to bee receiued as he buildeth vpon the foundation of the canonicall scripture such building will stand without retracting all other doctrine as it begins in man so man may end it neither can it stand any longer than man listeth to vphold it This wauering in the matter of Purgatorie our Papist denieth impudently cryeth in an agony shew me where Saint Austine doth deny purgatorie as I haue shewed you he hath affirmed it alas he hath shewed Austines affirmation out of the counterfeit sermons and Homilies neuer either written or preached by Saint Austine which is a most simple kind of shewing but why doth he aske where Austine denieth purgatorie and neuer asketh one word where he doubteth of it These be fine fellowes that aske after such points as they thinke they can hold talke of and can suffer other things to passe by as if they saw him not Howbeit our Protestant heere cites a place out of Austines Sermons De verbis Apostoli which is little to the purpose Serm. 4. yet notwithstanding where our Papist answereth that he knoweth no third place for infants but either heauen or hell what doth he else but disclaime his limbus puerorum which Pope Innocent the third Cap. maiores extra de bapt and most of the schoolemen place aboue purgatorie and will needs haue it to be
liter lib. 10. into the contrary extreame Austine himselfe speaking of Tertullian saith thus De Deo noluit aliter sapere qui sane quoniam acutus est inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur quid enim verius dicere potuit quam id quod ait quodam loco Esse corporale passibile est debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat etiam Deum corpus esse neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion for what could he speake more truly than when hee saith in a certaine place that to be bodily is to be passible therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before that God is a bodie for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible Heere is a contradiction namely to be bodily is to be passible and God is bodily which be the premises of a Syllogisme and if you adde the conclusion which ariseth of them Ergo God is passible the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise now the maior is most true saith Austine ergo say I the minor is false and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood you will say then debunt ergo mutare sententiam it is true but he changed it not for ought wee know but left this and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted yet was he still accounted a very learned man Cyprian when he called for Tertullian was woont to say da magistrum giue me my master Austine saith acutus est he is a quicke and subtile disputer and Erasmus Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus Tertullian was the learnedest by much In praefat oper Hilaric of the Latine diuines Now where our papist still goeth on and tels vs after his absurd manner that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists and therefore I hope he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors then hath he sayd nothing to purpose but bred a suspition in his reader that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie than the Fathers and this suspition is yet increased in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches Fathers and Councels to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures and sucke poyson out of the one aswell as the other I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij Gregorij Action 1. Ibidem Cyrilli in multis locis ego cum patribus eijcior c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius Gregorie Cyrill in ma-many places I am cast out with the Fathers c. So Eutyches Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli Athanasij Ibid. Action sanctorum patrum So Carosus Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem octo patrum sic credo c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson but of the Scripture Ad pompeium cont epist Steph. de peccac merit remiss lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition the error of man doth cease And Austine Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued As for the Church he talkes of if he be straitly examined he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome and so no Scripture nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant but that which Rome will affoord vs that 's the Church which hee takes to be as he said a while agoe the sure rocke and pillar of trueth De expresse verbo Dei Hosius saith Si quis habeat interpretationē ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae etiāsi nec sciat nec intelligat an quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture although he neither know not vnderstand whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture yet he hath the very word of God How like you this my maisters you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels no nor of learning nor wit neither for the Church of Rome whether it agree or agree not with the words of the Scripture will serue the turne you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse the Church of Rome will watch for you but sirs I pray you tell vs wil your Church of Rome when she hath giuen vs an interpretation stand to it like a post and neuer alter that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs. Nicho. Casanus No we dare not promise you that for we haue a great man one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church thus De authoritate ecclesiae conciliorum supra contra scripturam of the authoritie of the Church Councels aboue contrary to the Scripture And in that booke he hath set downe Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturā vno modo alio tempore alio modo nam intellectus currit cum praxi c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way and at another time another way for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise Marry then fie vpon you and vpon your Church our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter as either you or your Church Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed I pray you looke vpon them and you shall find the two first to be the same and the third little differing from the other two the Fathers errors saith he were priuate opinions that 's the first one doctors opinion that 's the next reiected of the Church that 's the last Now if this word reiected be no more but not receiued or allowed for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence
the vngodlie wee aske we obtaine The Dialogue Sectio XXVII ANd here will I make and end referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken to your better censure and further consideration whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ and that you are also a member of the same yet a No such matter it is but the vanitie of your conceit must you be inforced to graunt that all the ancient fathers before mentioned were hereticks and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so ofteÌ„ in their writings b Paul saith that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised but let vs admit although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c VVe goe by truth not by imagination imagined for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours could vpon d We doe not imagine so for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane but by lâ—tle and litle irremarkeably as weeds vse to grow among thâ— good coâ—ne a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies or how can we e VVho bids you imagine so but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed 2. Thes 2.3 imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world as that none of the said papisticall doctors who wrote against all those by the name of heretickes which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks nor your doctrine Catholicke termed Catholicke could heare of them or that in all that time no generall Councell who were gathered together from all parts of the world should receiue intelligence g No Chur h had any being then but ours onely of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner which if either any of the said doctors or any of those general Councels had done h Non sequitur we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead c. he was i Full simply and full little to your credit but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes confuted by Epiphanius and afterward by S. Austine when the reall presence was k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde before your Lateran councels first impugned the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane and so of other of your opinions as they sprang vp in latter yeeres but a Protestant religion such as is now established in England was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l A foule vntruth without either gaâ—d or welt but in England onely And Puritany such m They professe no such matter as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world so that it is n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is a religion and a church as yet in imagination onely for although Puritanes o you haue cause to loue them the better for in so doing they resemble you Papists doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture as before I haue sufficiently prooued There was neuer heresie in the world but you shall reade when it first sprang vp how it grew and increased and when it was cut downe and withered away you shall neuer p you may read in Paul when it first sprang and when it shal be cut downe 2. Thes 2 7 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang it hath for these 1300. yéeres by q VVe confesse no such matter your own confession increased and florished it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion is r But by your leaue we must doubt of it or rather be out of doubt it is not no doubt the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh saying And there shall be a path and a way and it shall be called the holy way and it shall be to you so direct and plaine as fooles shall not be able to erre therein Contrariwise you shall Å¿ In the Bible reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp who were the fathers thereof and it hath béene t The more to blame they that did it cut so oft as it hath reuiued so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies you can shew no succession of bishops no myracles no u These be stale prattlements of no weight beseeming such vain ianglers martyrs nor name any one member of your Church before Iohn Caluin for although Wickliffe Husse and Luther with the Waldenses and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane and so none of your Church and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth wherein there is x VVe haue the holy word of God to giue vs light and to guide vs cursed be he that lookes for better direction Amen no light no path no compasse or guide to direct your course The Answere HEere this man would make an end if hee could tell how but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe Sect. 5. alibi and therefore though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence yet somewhat more would bee added in this place
as they were warned of their errour so are you as they without repentance lost the benefite of Christs sacrifice so shall you if the Fathers had been as often and plainely admonished as you haue been they would being holy and sincere men haue reformed their iudgement and keeping the head though they erred in some part the Lord will not impute that error vnto them And againe they erred not so wilfully as you and therefore we account not of them as of you who haue multiplyed your errours and left almost no one ground of pure religion vnshaken This is a sufficient answere to such beggarly petitioners yet his mouth will not be stopt till wee shew some of the Popish reuolts from Gods ancient truth to the seuerall heresies whereof Poperie consisteth To this end therefore we may remember the double condemnation of Eustathius in two seuerall councels Socrat. Hyst lib. 2 cap. 33. Casaria and Gangra for such Catholicke Articles as runne currant among Papists at this day as for example forbidding to marry abstinence from meats sundring men from their wiues and seruants from their Maisters vnder colour of Religion abhorring the blessing and communion of a married Priest and such like articles as were condemned most of them of all Churches vnder heauen 200. yeeres before Eustathius was borne for thus writes Apollonius a Martyr Euseb hystor lib. 5. cap. 16. speaking of the hereticke Montanus Hic est qui coniugia dissoluere docuit ieiuniorum leges praescripsit qui Pepuzam ac Tinium modicas ciuitates Phrygiae Ierusalem vocauit vt cunctos vndique ad illas congregaret qui pecuniarum exactores constituit qui sub pretextu nomine oblationum numerum captationem artificiosè concutus est qui salaria doctrinae praedicatoribus subministrauit vt per ventris studium doctrina ipsius inualesceret This is he which dissolued mariages prescribed lawes of fasting which called Pepuza and Tinium two little Cities of Phrygia Ierusalem that hee might gather men from euerie place thither which appointed exactors of money which vnder the pretence and name of offering did cunningly deuise to get gifts who ministred stipends to the preachers of his doctrine that so for his bellies sake his doctrine might be euerie where declared The same Father and Martyr sayth that his Prophets and Martyrs did extort money not onely from the rich but also from the poore euen widowes and Orphanes Marcion and Appelles forbad mariage as appeareth in Tertullian The Manichies were condemned first by Pope Leo and then by Gelasius as the first Fathers of communicating vnder one kinde De prescrip ad haeret Serm. 4. de quadrag In decret pontif distinct in cap. comperimus In Catalog dogm Manich. lib. de anima in fine Dialog 2. Contra Eutyc Can. 36. Haeres 70. The same heretickes were the Fathers of monkish idlenesse and therefore Epiphanius cals them Desidentes vespae nihil operantes c. Idle Waspes and doing no worke The Doctrine of Purgatory was first recōmended to Tertullian by the paraclet of Montanus The hereticke in Theodorets dialogues saith as the Papists doe Symbola dominici corporis saguinis post inuocationem sacerdotis mutantur alia fiunt The Symboles of the Lords bodie and blood after the inuocation of the Priest are changed and made other things And Pope Gelasius tels the hereticke Eutiches Non desinit esse substantia panis naturavini There ceaseth not to bee the substance of bread and the nature of wine The Counsell of Eliberis enacted that that which is worshipped should not bee painted vpon wals thereby condemning Popish Imagerie Epiphanius faith of the Audians * They vse great store of Apocryphall writings Epiphanius haeres 46. 47. 61. c. De preser advers haeret libro de baptis in fine Euseb hystor lib. 3. cap. vlt. lib. 2. cap. 15. De prescript advers haeret Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 23. 24 lib. 3. cap. 2 Canus lib 3. cap. 3. fund 4. Bellarm. de verb. non script lib. 4. cap. 8. Vtuntur Apochryphis multis abunde The Tatians the Eucratifes the Apostolickes and such like heretickes were the first founders of single life and being so highly esteemed it tooke hold in time vpon the Church Womens baptisme which is currant in Poperie came first from heretickes wiues of whome Tertullian sayth that they were Procaces audentes docere contendere exercismos agere curationes repromittere forsitan tingere Malepart such as boldly tooke vpon them to teach to contend to exercise such as promised to cure diseases and perhaps also to baptize Papias a Chiliast was the first father and founder of Traditions and Peters primacie or Romish Episcopalitie Tertullian and Irenaeus tell vs that heretickes held the Apostles did not reueale Omnia omnibus sed quaedam palà m vniuersis quaedam secretò paucis All thinges to all men but some things openly and to all some thinges secretly to a few as namely Basilides Carpocrates Valentinus Marcion Carinthus And this is the opinion of Papists at this day This is sufficient for a tast that therby you may iudge how toothsome Poperie is that consisteth of these and many other such roots of bitternesse And that you may be yet better infourmed how the good corne of true religion may bee ouer-growne with the weeds of popish errours and heresies and yet in time get the victorie againe and ouer-maister them Cap. 2 19. the Church of Thyatira so highly commended in the Reuelation may bee a plaine document vnto vs which though it seemed to be euacuated by the Cataphrygian heresie Epipha haeres 51. yet a hundred yeeres after the Church reuiued againe and multiplyed and so by Gods mercie conquered the woman Iezabel and her hereticall Prophets euen so it fareth with the Church of God in generall for howsoeuer it pleased God for the punishment of our sinnes to giue Antichrist leaue by little and little to growe to such a height that at length hee ouer-shadowed and ouer-dropped all truth and sinceritie yet when God saw his time hee began to raise vp such worthy men as lopt off his braunches Daniel 4. and shooke off his leaues and scattered his fruit and so continueth and will continue to execute his iudgements vpon that man of sinne that in the end he will not leaue so much as the stumps of his roots in the earth Touching Puritanie which still this fellow quarrels withall when hee can prooue it to bee either a Church or a Religion by it selfe we will shape him an answere in the meane time let him know that no Protestant in England or out of England holds any doctrine necessarie to saluation but such as is warranted by Scripture neither are we left wholly to our selues in matters of discipline to appoint what wee thinke good Rom. 14.23 1. Cor. 14.26.40 but are guided by the generall rules of Gods word how to behaue our selues in the