iudgment such differences I saye make Aliens and deserue to be cutt of from communion Vncle. You haue discursed well but not home at least to the second part of the replye about the pointes them selues whether they be but matters of opinion or no what saye you to that Nephew That also is euident to me to witt that the pointes disputed betwixt Catholikes and Protestants are most materiall and substaÌ„tiall ones For suppose Christ's bodie be truly and really in the Blessed Sacrament and that t' is God him self which the Priest sheweth the people to adore it suerly can be no slight offence not to giue him due honnor nor contrariewise no smale crime to adore that for God which truly is not so If Christ haue left the authoritie of gouerment to Bishops of Absolution from sinnes to Priests it is no indifferent nor pettit busines to take theÌ„ out of the church If it be Idolatrie to hoÌ„nor images praye to Saincts and the like can we thinke it no great matter whether we doe so or no seing the scripture full of so manie plagues faling vpon rhe Iewes for Idolatrie Vncle. Why cozen may not a Protestant answere you likewise that if one of the opinions controuerted betwixt Thomists and Scotists be Pelagianisme the other Caluinisme can you thinke that such pointes are of smale importance Wherefore he will tell you that all such pointes are verie hard questions graue learned and vnpassionate men on both sides and therefore what so euer the truth be in it self yet so long as God Allmightie see 's our harts to be right towards him and that we desire to doe what his law teacheth vs so farr as we are able to know it all these and the like opinions are but only materiall errors and doe not hinder vs from being good Christians Nephew Truly Vncle you haue puzled me now for vnlesse such pointes and questions doe trench vpon the churche's authoritie why should not the church beare with such opinions but so seuerely cast them out of communion ad shutt heauen gates vpon the Authours and Beginners of them Certes vnlesse there be some necefsitie why certaine pointes are to be knowne by the whole church others not I confesse I cannot answere you but I come to learne and therefore when my owne discourse reacheth not I must craue your helping hand to direct me And I shall thinke the yeare well hanselled if you make me vnderstand what pointes are to be knowne of necessitie and why but first I pray tell me §. 2 Whence proceedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion VNCLE To sett you in the waye you must first tell me what you thinke this word necessitie doth importe so farr as it concerne's our pourpose Nephew You know I am no great claâ—ke and therefore I cannot speake of necessitie nether as a Gramarian nor as a Logician but as farr as I vnderstand and intende by my question there is two sortes of necessities the one so absolute as that the thing we desire cannot without such a meanes be anie waies gotten or doÌ„ne the other in respect of such a meanes without the which our desire cannot bee well and conueniently obtained For we commonly saie that such or such a thing cannot be done or gotten when it is extreme hard and painefull to gett it And therefore some times we call that necessarie without which our desire cannot be fullfilled but with great labour and difficultie and some times that without which it cannot absolutely be compassed Vncle. Mary cozen you neede nether Gramarian nor Logician to helpe you The necessitie of knouing pointes of faith is to be compared to a church or coÌ„panie of belieuers and not to euerie particularman nor to mende what you haue said But since you are so skilfull and that you now see what is necessarie in generall to witt the know ledge of Christian doctrine and what it is to be necessarie I will trouble you with a farther demaÌ„de giuing you first this caueat That my intention is not to examine or declare what expresse and distinct knowledge or beliefe ought euerie particular and indiuiduall man to haue whithout which he cannot possibly be saued this being a thing depending of so manie secret and vnknowne circumstances as that it seemeth to be specialy reserued as only befitting God's infinite wisdome and deuine iustice though some times a prudent man may shrodly guesse and in a possible supposition of a particular man's dying without repentance in a positiue and wilfull contradicting beliefe to the doctrine of the Catholike church it would be no breach of charitie to conclude his daÌ„nation Yet at this present we will only speake of the necessitie of knowing and belieuing seuerall controuerted pointes of Christian doctrine in respect of a church or coÌ„panie of professed Christians in coÌ„mon and not as the knowledge thereof is necessarie to euerie particular man Now therefore tell me what is the end for which this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie Nephew How be knowledge of Christian doctrine cometh to be nessarie to saluation That I suppose no man doubteh but t' is heauen or in more learned termes the sight or true and proper knowledge of Allmightie God who being the cause and Creator of All things he that clearely see 's and truâ—y know's him will see and know all other things in him which all together fall so farr short of giuing such content as is taken by seeing him that the sight of him is only accompted Blisse and the sight of all the rest is but a retenue and conuenience of that first and cheefe sight which of it self alone is our essentiall Happinesse Vncle. This I confesse cozen is both verie true and verie well said of you but yet I must haue an other answere for sure you haue ouer skipp't some thing What connection is there I pray betwixt the knowledge of Christian doctrine and seeing of Allmightie God Some thing I saie must of necessitie be betwixt them for which what soeuer it be the knowledge of Christian doctrine will be more immediately necessarie Which if you can tell me what it is we shall thereby more easily discouer and conceiue what and how farr this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie for vs. Nephew Why vncle you know I haue beene taught no farther then to know what I ought to belieue and doe and that in belieuing and doeing so I shall come to heauen Vncle. And were you not taught that the commandements were resumed and coÌ„prehended in two to wit in the loue of God and of your neighour Nephew Yes that I was but what that appertaine's to your question that I vnderstand not vnlesse peraduenture your meaning be that the accomplishment of these two lawes is the immediate stepp to our Blisse Which as I see t' is verie likely yet doe I not fully conceiue why it should be so vnlesse heaueÌ„ goe by wishing whereas I haue still beene taught it goe's by
litle fade's and dye's For the second subsisting and cōtinuing multitude we see in all communities or common wealths there is a head common Councell or highest authoritie wherevnto all the members repaire in necessitie and by their connection therewith they receiue securitie life and motion in that morall kinde of being euerie man doing his dutie according to the lawes of that communitie and the head or supreme authoritie prouiding for the obseruance of the lawes in generall and particularly for the direction of such cases as the lawes reach not vnto So that if you take awaie this head or common wisdome the multitude must of necessitie be short liued and quickly come to ruine Hence it is euident to common sense and naturall reason that the church of Christ being a multitude ordained to subsiste and continew must not only haue the vnitie of similitude and be one by the similitude of actions which Christ hath prescribed and all Christians practize but also by the vnitie of connection to some common head and supreme Councell whereby it may conserue it selfe and keepe it's subiects in the continuance of the law of Christ and in the practize of those actions which he hath commanded And here you may note that were this law naturall there needed no more to be of the church then to be a member of this communitie The Want of the true rule of faith exclude's from the church and he would be out of it who should not participate of the two vnities But our Christian law being aboue nature and cōsequētly not to be learned by man's iudgmēt but by authoritie that is by receiuing it from Christ those who doe not receiue it by that meanes and rule by which Christ hath ordained it shall be receiued are not truly of this communitie whatsoeuer be their materiall beliefe and opinion Wherefore you are to considere farther that this Receipte of Christ's law and doctrine may haue beene ordained by Christ himself to be effected two seuerall waies First by word of mouth that is that this law and doctrine should be vocally taught and deliuered from hand to hand from father to sonne to the world's end secondly by writing Now therefore if Christ haue ordained both these waies who should not accept of them both is not truly and properly a Christiā nor consequently of the Christian communitie If Christ haue only instituted tradition to be the meanes and rule of the receite of his law and doctrine and hath giuen scripture only for superabundant instruction and consolation then who should reiect tradition and flye to the scripture making it his only rule and meanes of receiuing Christ's law and doctrine were not truly and properly a Christian nor of the Christian communitie Lastly if Christ haue ordained scripture alone to be this rule and meanes then who cleaueth to Tradition is not truly a Christian The resolution of this question doth properly belong to the Gouernors of the church who if they haue the true rule their subiects are safe if not their subiects soules will be required at their hands by whom they perish But I will take an other time to giue you a full resolution of this maine difficultie Three things are required to make a legitimate Christiā In the interim you may inferre out of this discourse to our present pourpose that three things are required to make one a legitimate Christian and such an one as euerie Christian ought to bee if he will be truly one of the communitie and church of Christ Though perhaps one may be in some sorte a Christiā and goe to heauen too by an exttaordinarie meanes without hauing all these three subsequent dispositions and qualities The first is that he belieue and practize the law of God which in respect of a particular man is but short and t' is in a word to loue God aboue all things The second is that he be vnited to the multitude of true Christians that is that he depende of the Gouerment left and instituted by Christ here vpon earth And for this pointe or qualitie as I doubt not but some one or few may be saued without it yea peraduenture with an opposition to it in fact through ignorance so his hart be true and without passion yet to thinke this a common ordinarie and high waie to saluation and that t' is as indifferent to liue from vnder this Gouerment setled by Christ as vnder it were ridiculous and absurde in common sense and reasō and in deede it were to annultate Christ's coming and make his law voide and fruitlesse And if you desire to conceiue the necessitie of this pointe more fully doe but reflect and considere the nature of all ciuill and politicall commonwealths wherein if anie member doe not liue vnder the Gouernors and depende of the Magistrats established by the highest power and authoritie thereof he cannot be truly and properly said to be a part and member of that communitie nor can he assuredly know ordinarily speaking nor constantly performe the law and orders of it The third pointe is that this communitie whereof euerie particular Christiā is to be a share and member hath the true rule and meanes to know and obserue the law of Christ And it is necessarie that this pointe be more exactly knowne by those who liue amongst diuersitie of opinions in this matter For where there appeares learned and morally good mē taking parts in this question a priuat man seeme's to haue iust reasō to doubt whether side he shall take for his guide and therefore this pointe well dicussed amōgst such giue 's a man full and generall satisfaction for his whole beliefe and practize And these two last pointes cleere one the other for that communitie which hath the true meanes of the receipte of Christ's law and doctrine that is the true rule of faith must of necessitie be it of and in which we are to seeke and shall finde Christ's law And contrariewise if we finde the true communitie we are sure it hath the true rule of knowing Christ's law and doctrine Hence it is that the Catholike church euer pressed hir Aduersaries with two speciall arguments 1. with the noueltie of their church shewing that none of them euer had a continuall visible succession 2. that they receiue not their opinions from their Ancestors and by them from Christ but that they were inuented at such a time against the receiued tenet of the church in that time that is traditiō for the church and noueltie of doctrine in hir Aduersaries And now I thinke you see the resolution of our first question Nephew I thinke I doe and t' is if I be not deceaued that such as professe to keepe the law of Christ though in effect they doe not performe it are to be accounted of the church and consequently sinners are not to be excluded so long as they submitte them selues to the churche's Gouerment established by Christ And on the other side though diuers
of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
whether you doe not thinke that this church Whereof the particular church of Rome was a part and peraduenture the principall Was not to bee obeyed by euerie particular man and euerie particular church she being the whole they but meÌ„bers or parts Shee hauing receiued Christs doctrine and therefore able to teach it she hauing receiued the Keyes of heauen and therefore who refused to heare hir should be esteemed as a heathen or Publican And in a word she being the spouse of Iesus Christ and the mother of this faithfull children Nephew All this is so euideÌ„t that I thinke nether Protestant nor Puritant will deny it But what doe you drawe out of this Vncle. Nay softly cozen I must aske you one question more before I conclude anie thing and it is What became of this church when it fell froÌ„ Christ I meane were the men and their gouernors sodainly extinct and others raised in their places or did there still continue a publicke face and successiue gouerment of the same church euen in their errors and so the externall church remained and descended to our days though with corrupt faith and doctrine Nephew This I doubt not likewise but euerie one will grant you for all the Protestants that euer I heard doe acknowledge it nor doe I imagine that anie will deny it Vncle. Why then cozen wee will draw this conclusion that That church which is now in communion with the particular church of Rome was once the true church or if you please to saie she was but a part of the true church so let it bee at least she had the true faith and doctrine and euerie particular man or church with in hir owne compasse was obliged to obey hir as hauing those worthie titles which you acknowledge euen now to bee then due vnto hir But now if a Protestant telleth you shee hath since fallen and lost those goodly titles How would you conuince him or at least can you tell me §. 2 What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes in this question ought to haue NEphew To conuince a Protestant in this point I would haue recourse to bookes and learned men who should mantaine and shew that his position were false for I am not so well learned as to bee able to proue it of my selfe Vncle. I hold you not for a warie gamester at this play for why would you leaue your best waâ—d and put your self vpon the disaduantage I meane why will you put your self to proue the negatiue your aduersarie being obliged to conuince the positiue for if he coÌ„fesse as he doth our church was once the true church we haue the presumption on our side vntill he proue the contrarie Besides our church was once the spouse of Christ by their owne verdict though now the stile hir the whore of Babilon Erroneous and Adulteresse And how I pray you cozen would your self take it if one should laye the like imputation vpon your bedfellow without sufficient proofe to make it good And imagine Christ Iesus will be no lesse offended to see his deare spouse whoÌ„ he bought and washed with his owne harts blood so shamefully traduced without a legitimate cause and iust occasion Doe you thinke hee will not brand such accusors for infamous and sacrilegious calumniators Or if such an accusor should faille of his proofe doth he not conuict him self of the most heynous crime that can be imagined And likewise if this same church was erected and instituted by God him self for our lawfull Ladie and true Gouernesse can you thinke that who reuolteth from the loyaltie and obedience due vnto hir without euident proofe of hir escheate from that throne and dignitie doth not declare him self a traytor and rebell to God and her And in a word if shee once were that church to whom Christ gaue the rodd of iustice and sent all professours of his name to heare hir voice and sentence vnder penaltie of being reputed heathens and publicans doth not hee incurre those curses and deserue those ignominious titles who doth leaue hir and deuide him self from hir without legall warrant of his separatioÌ„ Doth not therefore common sense conclude that who soeuer confesseth the Roman Catholike church to haue beene the true aÌ„d lawfull church of Christ is by this verie deede obliged to proue cleerely and euidently hir fall from that maiestie or els in his owne conscience and iudgment must needes bee lyable to those faule and vnworthie taintes of trayson and rebellion against God and his church Nephew I confesse you speake no parables nor is there anie deepe learning required to conceiue the euidence of your discourse Yet this I must tell you that I feare you might haue spared your labour for there 's no protestant but will easily vndertake to proue that the RomaÌ„ church is gone astraie for if they cannot doe this they can doe nothing their whole Religion being but as they them selues confesse a taking awaye of abuses crept in and their Diuinitie no other then to shew this And if you would shew their proofes to be insufficient I feare you would require a greater scholler then my self to comprehende your reasons Vncle. Bee not discouraged nephew but looke into the case and tell mee what Kind of proofes you thinke the Protestants are bound to bring to 〈◊〉 them selues from those heauie censures I tould you of Doe you thinke it were sufficient to bring such arguments as some philosophers brought to proue snow to be blacke Or such as by man's wit and the art of topickes a good logician may frame vpoÌ„ a subiect giuen him in which kinde some great men haue taken pleasure to commende baldnesse blindnesse and the like imperfections others to contradicte manifest truths as that there neuer was anie warre of Troy Nay doe you thinke cozen t' is sufficieÌ„t that their arguments bee only as good as those which the Catholikes bring against them Or in a word ought not their arguments to bee euident and vnanswerable in euerie indifferent and vnderstanding man's iudgmeÌ„t That is should they not be such as that a man expert in controuersies and of a sound and vnpassionate iudgment hauing seene what the most learned Catholikes can saie against the protestants proofes must neuerthelesse thinke in his hart that they nether haue giueÌ„ nor can giue anie contenting and satisfactorie answere therevnto Nephew The plaine truth is if it were my case betwixt my wife and my self I should not thinke to haue corresponded with my loyaltie towards hir nor with that care of hir honnour which I ought to haue vntill I had ventured my life to haue his harts blood who should haue sought to wrong hir reputatioÌ„ so highly without such proofe as you require Nether doe I beleeue that anie Prince or state would thinke him a loyall subiect who should conceale and foster that man that should disperse and so we in the harts of their subiects the like suspicions against their gouermeÌ„t T' is true I
take much better I shall profit more and you will be in lesse danger to loosâ— your labour Vncle. Well cozen seing you are vnwilling of that discourse I will not trouble you therewith vpon condition that after twelftide you will not faille to come to me with preparation to receiue that doome which I shall laye vpon you for your christmasse trespasses In the interim I conceiue nothing more fitting then to informe you of the cheefest and most important affaire that you can haue vpon earth You know you haue beene borne and bred a catholike And you know it is their beliefe and tenent that all wee catholikes are obliged to venter life and fortunes for the profession of our faith Is it not then a great 〈◊〉 for a catholike gentleman to know full well how to gouerne his temporall estate till his grounds breede his catell sollicite his suits in law and menage all his terrestriall affaires and not knowe Why in such an occasion he ought to hazard yea and if neede be to loose and cast all awaye in the verie sight of his lamenting friends some vpbraiding and some condemning his action as foolish and indiscreete Nephew I pray vncle doe not laye so hard a censure vpoÌ„ me nor thinke me so ignorant of those things with out the knowledge where of I cannot be a catholike And you know wee cannot be admitted to the Sacraments nor can we be esteemed and reputed catholikes vnlesse we belieue that the reward we expect in heauen is farr beyond the pleasures of this world And truly considering what Christ Iesûs hath done and suffered for vs it were most base and vnworthie of a gratefull soule to feare to yeild vp life and goods when it is for his honnor and glorie Nor doe I thinke that more violent and efficacious reasons and motiues can be giuen to a noble haâ—t then these I coÌ„fesse if you would search into the metaphysicall grounds and principles of these truths I should perhaps light short of giuing a full accounte but my age and naturall vnstedfastnesse pleade my excuse as yet peraduenture when I grow elder I may proue more bookish and then turne the scripture and fathers and so become able to giue a more sollide accompte of our tenents but as yet this is not to be expected at my hands Vncle. Feare not cozen anie hard measure from me Who loue you so tenderly nether is that the point I entended to deliuer vnto you But sithence the greatter part of your kinred are of a different beliefe from you I desire to enable you to giue them satisfaction why you adhere so strongly to the Catholike partie as to hazard your owne and posteritie's wellfare for the maintenaÌ„ce of your faith and profession Nether am I ignoraÌ„t of your youthfull disposition and therefore Will I abstaine from misticall and sublime metaphysikes and only or at least cheefely make vse of what you know alreadie and what common sense and ordinarie naturall reason is able to performe wherefore to make the first breach I praye tell me cozeÌ„ what answere would you giue to a neere friend Whâ— should blame you for ruining your estate in the defence and maintenance of a position which is against the iudgment of your kinred friends countrie and state Nephew I would laye opeÌ„ vnto him how that our church and our doctrine hath beene euer preached and taught from Christ's time in all countries of the world what abuÌ„dance of holy martyres and learned men wee haue had how all christian nations haue beene conuerted by vs and such like motiues which are able to secure anie Wise man from doubting and must needes conuince the truth to be on our side our Aduersaries being but vpstarts of an hundreth yeares old Which if anie should coÌ„test and denye these things to be true I Would offer to produce men Who should proue and iustifie all I said against anie Doctor he should bring Vncle. Verie well bur if your friend reply that they willingly coÌ„fesse these things haue beene done by the common Ancestours of both Catholikes and ProtestaÌ„ts which were the true church but manie errours by litle and litle haue encroached and crept in amongst theÌ„ which wheÌ„ they were discouered those who now adhere to the RomaÌ„ church would not acknowledge but through obstinacie and desire of soueraigntie brake communion And farther that these diuisions are not truly diuisions in Religion but in opinion so that both sides remaine still parts of the true church though so much traÌ„sported by their first heates and passions as that causelesly they denye communion one to the other And saie's he if you looke in to the pointes of these diuisioÌ„s they are but such as be in the Roman church it selfe betwixt Thomists and Scotists Dominicans and Iesuits who proceede so farr as to charge one an other with Pelagianisme and Caluinisme which neuerthelesse doth not make different churches euen by the Catholikes owne confession And why then should the Protestants be of an other church then the Catholikes are of What would you answere to this Nephew I am not so ignoraÌ„t but I see well enough that all manner of differences ought not to make a breach in churches Wâ— diffâ—ces Reliâ— maâ— schâ— and yet that some may For I see men goe to law and haue quarells and both partyes not only tollerated in the in the common wealth but held good meÌ„bers of it And yet others I see punished for their quarells and contentions And if I doe not mistake the reason of this disparitie is that as long as these quarells are betwixt priuate meÌ„ so long they are suffered and borne withall but if once the common wealth take part with one side giuing iudgmeÌ„t in the cause disputed and thereby interesse it self in the busines if then the other side yeild not it is iustly accounted punishable and an euill member of the commonwealth And in deede thus to disagree vnder a head or rule which can bring the disagreers to agreement is rather to agree then disagree becaus they agree in a thing to wit in a mutually acknowledged head and coÌ„mon rule which is stroÌ„ger theÌ„ the causes of their disagreemeÌ„t and therefore their disageement is only for a time vntill that head and rule haue a conuenient and fitt opportunitie to reduce the disagreers to a full and totall agreement This dayly experience teacheth vs in our owne commonwealth which hauing once giuen a finall senteÌ„ce and determinate iudgment betwixt partye and partie the suite is ended and who should disobey would be punished for contempt So likewise in the church which is a spirituall common wealth such differences as be amongst those who referre them selues to hir iudgment and acknowledge hir decisiue authoritie are and may be tollerated to what termes soeuer the partyes growe amongst them selues But such differences as trench vpon hir authoritie and are betwixt those whereof the one partye will not acknowledge hir defining power nor stand to hir
waywardnesse or carelessenesse they will not looke after it Suerly I cannot see but t' is only to the increase of their damnation Like vnto an ambitious man who whilest he is yet a farr of from the honnour which he aspire's vnto he can beare it patiently but if once he come to a faire possibilitie and haue it as it were in his hand ô Then if he misse it he is incapable of all comfort and consolation and thinke's him selfe the most vnhappy and vnfortunate man in the word So I conceiue that when a soule is out of hir bodie and come's to see how easily she might haue attained to that eternall Blisse and Happinesse where vnto she was ordained and that through hir owne neglect and carelessenesse she is now to be euerlastingly depriued thereof ô God! Vncle how infinitely will she be greeued how she will curse hir selfe and thereby increase hir paine and miserie Vncle. You saie well cozen Can you doubt therefore or can a Christian thinke but t' is a pointe of great necessitie to man Kynde If there be anie order established by Christ Iesus in his church to make men embrace accepte and poursue those facile meanes to saluation that they know and belieue it Can a man of common sense and iudgment immagine chat this is not a pointe of maine importance Or that who disagree's about this position doth only disagree in matter of opinion wherein each one may hold what he pleaseth and not in a matter substantially and fundamently necessarie to saluation Nephew I confesse Vncle when I coÌ„sidere the frailtie of man and see how easily and ordinarily he is withdrawne from willing and following the meanes of his beatitude by the least terrestriall sensuall and momeÌ„tarie pleasure it where madnesse in me to belieue that supposing there be anie such order established by Christ in his church to incite and prouoke men to accepte and practize these sauing meanes it were I saie madnesse not to thinke the knowledge and beliefe of such an order to be one of the most important and necessarie pointes of christian doctrine Vncle. Remember then cozen the three stepps or degrees we talked of before of knowing esteeming and poursuing anie good And you will finde that for the first it is necessarie the truth of Christian doctrine be conserued and often inculcated in to the harts and mindes of Christians for the second that those who are to doe this haue such qualities as wil giue them credit and make men belieue them and for the third that there be meanes taken so farr as human nature giueth leaue to cutt of all such impediments as hinder men from preferring eternall good before the temporall teÌ„ptations and sensuall pleasures of this life The first of these conditions requireth that there be men appointed to haue care of the people by instructing and often putting them in minde of Christian doctrine Which if Christ haue done t' is euideÌ„t that whosoeuer seeketh to change his order and appointment doth not quarell vpon a sliglt pointe but vpon a most waightie and necessarie one Nephew I see well that who seeketh to distroye such an order established by Christ playe's with his church as Esope's wolues played with the sheepe offering them prey vpon condition they would deliuer vp their doggs vnto them which being done they slew and preyed vpon the sheepe And me thinke's common sense telleth me there cannot be a pointe in all ChristiaÌ„ doctrine of greatter importance then this For when I considere why treason is the greattest offence that can be committed in a common wealth I see t' is because no law can subsiste and hold without guardes and lookers to it so that who striketh at these guardes in a common wealth of what nature so euer it be striketh at the verie essentiall forme of it at all the lawes and at all what so euer doth conserue the peace and libertie of the whole people and multitude where vpoÌ„ the common wealth doth subsiste Wherefore t' is euident by naturall reason that who seeketh to remoue and abolish those whom God hath plaâ—ed to guarde his church striketh at the totall ruine thereof Vncle. T' is true and therefore you maie inferre that questioÌ„s of the Pope's authoritie ouer Bishopps of Bishopps authoritie ouer Priests and of Priests authoritie ouer the laietie are of no smale moment And that who goe's about to distroye this Hierarchie aymeth at no lesse then the vtter ouerthrow of Religion and ruine of the church planted by Christ Iesus with so much sweate and blood and espoused so dearely vnto him with his sacred promises These are the Angells to whoÌ„ God hath trusted and committed the charge of his flocke These are they by whose continuall succession we conuince the perpetuitie of the Catholike church These are the men who when anie new Blasphemie arriseth meete in Councells to giue testimonie to the doctrine of Christ euer dwelling in the harts of the faithfull and thereby crush the serpeni's head These are they who in their wisdomes may and ought enacte lawes and Canons to Christ's flocke and correct abuses creeping in both in discipline and moralitie leauing still vntouched Christ's sacred institutions And therefore who seeketh to extirpate or infringe this authoritie in the church setteth his axe at the roote of faith and vertue by which the church of Christ doth subsiste Nay euen in schismaticall churches the wiser and more learned sort of men haue euer detested and abhorred the confused Anarchie of braine-sicke Puritants And t' is said that wise state's men doe vehemently suspect and haue iust cause to suppresse all Anâ—y-Hierarchists Nephew Certainely no prudent and moderate man can doubt of the importance of this pointe And me thinke's vncle these zealous societies doe to the mainteners of this Hierarchie as Diogenes did to Plato scorning his vanitie with a farr greater pride for whilest they crye out against the pride of those who seeke these dignities established by Christ in his church they discouer a farr greater pride in them selues by endeauoring to distroy so sacred an institution that they them selues may vsurpe the power and place But to the second degree and condition of the diuision you made doe you thinke §. 4 That the administration of the sacraments by the Hierarchie is of such great necessitie VNCLE How saie you cozen what power preeminencie and qualities doe you thinke are necessarie for these guardes and teachers of Christ's law and doctrine to the end that the people may conceite such things as they tell them and thinke them to be of moment for surely the most part of men haue neede of all the helpes that may be to eleuate and raise their mindes to celestiall cogitations Nephew I see well enough that such men must needes haue credit with the people and ought not only to be accounted wise and good men but should be also esteemed wiser and better then the laietie for I haue heard the Prophet's curse cited sicut
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
Reuerencing their reliques and pictures 3. In hoping good of them by praying vnto them For we naturally thinke the greatest goods to be in those who deserue honour and can-doe good to others and therefore we neuer make anie great conceite of those things whence we can nether expect anie good nor wherevnto we thinke no honour due Nephew I cannot but interrupt your discourse with admiration to see how men who suerly had not cast awaie all thoughts of vertue sithence they had so manie followers and were in so great esteeme should vnder slight pretences so weaken the maine strings by which pore men were drawne to heauen and that for a litle vanitie and desire to appeare more learned then others How true is it vncle that man hath no foe but him self For not all the Tortures and Tyranies not all the inundations of waters and rauagings of fires that can be immagined could euer haue donne so much harme to man kinde as the verie taking awaie of the esteeme and conceite which we Catholikes haue of the excellencie and greatnesse of Saincts and of the happy estate which they enioye and which is the end we all ayme at Vncle. Oh! cozen if Alexander Cesar or anie of your great glorie hunters had considered in their life time what now peraduenture to their great greefe they cannot be ignorant of the difference that there is euen in this worldly and vaine glorie betwixt Peeter the fisherman or Paul the tentmaker who neuer aymed at this honour but thought it worse then the dust which they shaked from their shooes and them selues who poursued it so keenely with perpetuall dāger of their liues wasting their estates and Coūtries and ruining their neighbours if this I saie they had then knowne would they not haue changed their mindes and followed other courses And doe they not now mauger them selues and teare their verie soules in pieces to see their owne follie and their no lesse witlesse then gracelesse ambition And doe you not then thinke that the holy church vseth in this a most efficacious meanes to bring men to a vertuous life being she doth by this doctrine of honoring and praying to Saincts so strongly commende vnto vs the glorie and Blisse after which we ought to thirst and hope if we be true Christians Nephew For the two first points I confesse you haue reason but for the third I feare you will not come so well of For the easier it is to obtaine anie good the more wee esteeme it ours and consequently the more hart we haue to goe about it And what waie can be thought more easie then to make a cōceite of Christ's goodnesse and thinke that without anie paines or deserts on our side he will giue vs that great reward according to his owne pleasure more or lesse purely and only out of his mercie and goodnesse whitout anie respect or regarde to our workes or liues in this world Whereas we Catholikes make the gates of heauen so narrow and the paths therevnto so rougged that we seeme rather to deterre then exhorte men to vertuous liues Vncle. If ether we or they could thinke to come to Blisse whithout good life I should not wōder at your propositiō for in that case it were the best and only course to haue a great confidēce in him whose guift it is But if Christ hath nether left anie such waie nor you or anie vnderstanding mā belieue that faith with a wicked and carelesse life will bring a mā to saluatiō Cā you thinke that such an exaggeration of faith and confidence and such a disesteeming of good workes can be a meanes to persuade and incite men to sticke closse and persiste in vertuous actions which by all our confessions are requisite and necessarie to saluation Surely the Catholike church taketh the securer waie And the reason is because workes in the waie of merite that is done for God's sake and with hope of heauen cannot be without faith but how easie it is for a man to persuade him selfe that he hath much faith without working we finde by dayly experience Hence it is that the Catholike church doth moue and persuade vs to labour for our eternall happinesse by proposing vnto v the examples of men The force of examples in man's life as we are who haue made this great conquest in the most exact and solemne act of canonization of Saincts And also of others who by professing of extraordinarie labours make it appeare that the waie is not so hard but that manie dayly treade the paths of it I meane in Religious professions in which all sortes of austerities are dayly practized before our eyes which ought not to be derided and scorned as manie doe For what power the examples and conuersatiō of good men haue euerie wise man know's And for examples we see that all the dangers of the sea and warrs that diuing into the bottome of the Ocean and deluing to the center of the earth hanging on ropes and scaffolds and what soeuer man hath inuented in this kinde doe not deterre men where there is ether profit or Admiration Let but one desperate beginner shew the waie and he will not want multitudes of followers so ether vanitie or gaine second his aduentures And if the force of Example be so great the losse of wanting it must needes be equiualent and consequently the wrong done to Christians by taking it awaie must be no lesse And therefore the question and cōtrouersie whether it should be maintened in the church or no is of no smale importance Nephew I perceiue well that you still continue according to your promis to shew the necessitie and importance of controuerted pointes of Religion by shewing their force and efficacitie of producing profitable and aduantageous effects for mankind's attaining and coming to eternall Blisse and I see that this is a verie connaturall and efficacious proofe But I feare all pointes of controuersies cannot be proued that waie For I pray how should anie man shew me §. 10 That the Sacraments of order and Matrimonie the Generalitie of Ceremonies or the opinion of miracles are necessarie VNcle You remember I proposed vnto you but now a diuision of some things which concerned the breeding others the conseruation of vertue and deuotion For although such things as augment vertue doe likewise of necessitie conserue it yet there may be some things which properly are to conserue it and not to augment it or at least of two things which doe both the one may conserue it because it breed's it the other may augment it because it cōserue's it Now therefore if we finde anie thing whose principall effect is only to hinder such contrarieties as would distroye pietie and deuotion such properly speaking doe not augment it of them selues but yet they may be truly said to conserue it Farther if you considere you shall finde that this hindering of cōtrarieties and opposites to vertue is performed two waies First by remouing all such
cōpanie of learned and indifferent men haue doubted of yea vse this for a maxime that such pointes must of necessitie be doubted of as being not with in the reach of euident conuiction Let but I saie these men come to write against Catholikes and you shall haue them pretende whole listes of demonstrations and whole pages will not suffice to recken vp the absurdities which they imagine doe follow out of some one Catholike pointe so necessarie it is that these men contradict them selues who contradict the truth of Christ and his church Nephew Why the Protestants ought to returne to the church of Rome Your argument me thinke's is good against the first beginners of the breach from the Catholike church but will not suffice against mē that nowe liue who seeme to be a framed and setled church and haue receiued this doctrine from their fathers For we see that possession though at the first vnlawfully gotten doth in time preuaille and quarells cease euen where Princes are pretenders If the welch men should now pretende to haue beene vnjustly put out of England by the Saxons The Romans out of France by the french The Greekes out of Italie by the Goths who would thinke their quarells iust So likewise why should the Protestants though their time be not so long nor their possession so quiet rather yeild to the church of Rome then the church of Rome to them or to the church of England for example vnlesse the church of Rome can demonstrate hir positiōs against the Protestāts which I haue not heard anie of our learned mē saie she cā Vncle. Although it be both reasonable in all liklyhood and peraduenture may be cōuinced that who first parted and made the diuision ought in law of good gouerment to returne And although I could likewise pretende that the church of England compared to that church which liueth in communitie with the church of Rome is but a smale part and therefore bound to yeild to the greater for to saie that the Protestāts of England liue in communitie with all other churches but the Roman is manifestly false since all other churches will Anathematize diuers of their tenets and they also the tenets of other churches nor is there anie rule of vnitie and cōmunion amongst them Although I saie I could vrge these and other reasons to this effect yet I will only propose you two The Catholike church cannot come to the Protestants The former shall plainely shew that the Catholike church cānot yeild vnto Protestants without essentially ruining hir self and therefore no possible vnion betwixt the churches vnlesse the Protestants will bend For if the Catholike church doth essentially subsiste and mantaine hir selfe vpon this principle and grounde that she hath receiued hir doctrine frō Iesus Christ by word of mouth and succession from hand to hand which cannot faile put the case she yeilde's to the church of Englād in anie pointe which she holdeth vpō this principle is it not euident that she must of necessitie forgoe hir hold and for sake hir only principle where vpon is built all hir faith and beliefe is it not manifest that she may as well forsake all as anie one pointe which she holdeth vpō this tennor and motiue sure it is But the Protestants holding their doctrine and positions vpon no such tye but only vpon their owne at most probable interpretation of the scripture which they may change vpon better consideration are vpon farr easier termes to yeild and that without preiudice to their Religion or iudgment Because tenets only holdē vpon probabilitie may be changed vpon anie good occasion or new knowne motiue without disparregment to the Authour And certainely what church soeuer doth not thinke hir selfe vnerrable in anie pointe what she holdeth may be false and therefore it were temeritie for such a church to hold anie pointe certainely true And if she hold not anie pointe certainely true why should not the verie reasons of state and interest seeke to haue them changed and setled secure and infalible sithēce humane nature is euer inclined to belieue what 's for hir owne profit The second reason doth proue that the Protestant is bound in nature and by the light of reason to yeild to the Catholike communion For if nature teach vs that a Protestant's practize ought not to contradict his principles and iudgment of his reason And that the necessitie and force of Experience doth conuince most euidētly that there is no Gouerment in a church without prescribing of some tenets and forbidding of others restraining or punishing if neede be such as wil not complie with those prescribed Canōs or articles And that t' is likewise euident that this is contrarie to the libertie of opinion which the Protestāt putte's for his first and cheefe maxime to approue his separation frō the Roman church will it not follow with out contradiction that ether the Protestants must breake with reason and the nature of man in holding libertie in their iudgments and vnderstandings and obliging to obedience in their will and practize Or els they must close with the Catholike church in their iudgments and professe the inerrabilitie of the church at least so farr as obligeth hir subiects not to withstand or oppose but to submitte and obey hir Canons and commādes And for your exāples of politicke states which by possessiō and prescription haue at length obtained right you must remember that all their beginnings and groundes are vpon humane nature and consent of men and therefore by the same law by which they were made they may be likewise altered But the church of God was made by Christ and his Ministers and therefore reasō tell 's vs that hir institution is to be inuiolably cōserued nor ought or can anie prescription of time preuaile against hir Wherefore sithēce that church which the Protestants parted from held an holdeth still that the church of God nether is nor can be but one in all ages and places which position she professeth to haue teceiued in the same manner and vpō the same grounde as she hath receiued the rest of hir doctrine they Protestants must of necessitie first shew that they are the true church of Christ before they can pleade possessiō or prescription For if there can be but one church no prescription can make them that one sithence at their verie begining and euer since an other both was and is in more quiet possession then they and pleade's the same title more strongly Nephew Why then vncle I see there remaineth no other question but whether the Protestants can conuince their positions or noe Which I belieue would be a hard taske Wherefore vncle I thāke you hartily for this good lesson It growe's late I feare I shall hold you vp to long t' is time for you to take your reste Vncle. T' is true nephew they ought in deede to conuince and demonstrate their tenents and I know of no other waie they haue to doe
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
euen now before it passe without controule Nephew Truly sir me thinke's you speake with reason and common sense Yet this authoritie being so great I see not Why it may not of it selfe and by it's instruments worke such an effect as that learned men vpon whose number I am to rely may not become partially affected in the iudgment of Religion and consequently the greater number be more corrupted then the lesser and so the opinion of three were to be preferred before the opinion of the seuēteene Nay in my iudgment experience tell 's vs that not euerie tenth person amongst learned Catholikes doe know the true value and force of our Aduersaries arguments but with a preoccupated dispositiō vndervalue them when perhapps they cannot giue a full and satisfactorie answere vnto them And how should it be otherwise sithence from our childhood we are taught to rely vpon the church for matters of Religion and to reiect and hate anie mā who should seeke to make a contrarie impression in vs. This being plāted in vs in our tender age and growing with nature cannot choose but make a vehement preoccupation in vs whē we come to be able to iudge of controuersies in Religion Nor is it to the pourpose whether it be fit that we haue such an impression or no for I oppose not the thing but the argument which vrge's for the greater number of learned men Vncle. And haue you not marked the like amongst Protestāts ād much more amōgst Puritants And doe you not finde that those who slight Catholike arguments are no lesse preoccupated then the Catholikes you speake of Nay if you marke it they greatest contemners of their Aduersarie's argumēts be they Catholikes or Protestants are commonly the most zealous or rather the most ignorant of the zealous So that in deede the true cause of this partialitie is ignorance and not anie prohibition which contrariwise is a great prouoker to make men doubt of their Religion For euer since our Grand mother Eue harkened to the first why did God all precepts whose reason we vnderstand not haue beene suspicious vnto vs. Tell me then I pray if you were in a shipp where there were a Pilote and his mate and some Captane who had neuer beene at sea before and in a controuersie about their iournay they fall to variance The Pilote and his Mate saying this is the waie the Captane by reports or guesses of his owne saie's that 's not the waie And therevpon the Cōpanie in the shipp take's parts whether side in this case would you iudge to be partiall Nephew T' is cleere that those who ioyne with the Captane are partiall for where the one side hath skill the other none t' is euident that if the question be of skill we ought adhere to the skilfull This I saie is euidēt if there be no particular circumstāce or speciall reason to the contrarie As in our case if the Pilote had some interest to carrie his shipp out of the waie then it were an other matter but stāding precisely in the termes of your case t' is cleere ō which side the partialitie is for the Pilote hauing skill the captaine none the Pilot's aduise were to be preferred in common sense and to side with him were wisdome Vncle. Why then who adhere's to vnskillfull iudgers in matters of Religion are partiall and who adhere's to experts in those matters are wise and rationall Wherefore if the seuenteene adhere to the Mistrisse and teacher of Religiō and the three fly from hir doth not these by this verie act make them selues partiall and those impartiall You must first know whether side goes the right waie before you can suppose ether side to be partiall and consequently the number will still preuaille as long as t' is in doubt whether side is partiall And if one side adhere to that part which was in prepossession the other plead against possession you are bound by the law of nature by the institution of all cōmunities and by commō sense to iudge the pleaders against possession to be partiall vntill they haue proued their motiō so reasonable as wil ouer balāce the great authoritie of possession which is against them Farther if you considere that Christian Religion is supernaturall that is such an one as cannot be learned but frō Almightie God to wit from the Apostles or from them whō the Apostles or their Disciples haue taught you will see that there is no disputing about Religion but only to aske what hath beene taught vs which none can tell vs but those whose life and professiō it is to teach vs that doctrine which them selues first learned to wit the Bishopps and Pastors of the church So that who doubt's of what these mē haue taught and doe teach vs must needes be ignorant of the meanes and waie of knowing Christian doctrine and passionately refuse the true ād certaine rule thereof Nephew I see myne errour and it was the same as if one should condemne a man of partialitie who keepe 's possession of his owne because he yeild's not vp the state whereof he is possessed before iudgmēt be giuē against him whereas contrariwise in the Ciuill law which I once studied a litle if one be put out of quiet possession his Aduersarie may not pleade vntill he be put in againe And sure of all cases the fowlest is to doubt in matters of Religion before one hath reason for where authoritie is plainely on the one side there none cā doubt without wronging that Authoritie vnlesse he haue a reason which doth ouer ballance it And so I am satisfied in this pointe Vncle. Take this with you nephew that generally no cōtrouersies of Religion fall out without some motiues of interest on both sides and so both sides may be suspected of partialitie but cheefely that which beginne's the change Wherefore suppose men were forbiddē to doubt that would be of litle force if once they sawe their commanders were interessed vnlesse they sawe withall that they could not mende them selues Besides in our schooles all things are caled in question which would not be suffered if it endāgered the churche's beliefe Lastly being t' is great schollers that gouerne men's iudgments if they did finde by their learning anie other sure ground of Religion then standing to the churche's authoritie and iudgment they would esteeme as much of hir Commandes and Sampson did of the Philistins shutting their gates vpon him And so wee see by experience that all truly learned ād vnpassionat mē on our side besides the motife of the churche's authoritie adhere vpon pure reason to the Catholike tenets and will protest vpon all that 's holy that they would be of the same Religiō though there were no commande finding it most conformable to reason and to the grounds of Christianitie Nephew The truth is I know not how to answere your discourse yet perhapps a Protestant would saie that all 's but probabilitie and likelihood and therefore to hazard a
mā's estate vpon peraduentures were something hard and not verie rationally done Wherefore I should be glad to conceiue more fully §. 4 The force and efficacitie of these your discourses and persuasiōs VNCLE Why cosen what securitie doe your marchāts your states mē your soliers those that goe to law nay euen those that till their grounds and worke for their liuings what securitie I saie doe all these goe vpon Is it greater thē the securitie which these grounds doe afford Surely no. And yet no man esteeme's them foolish All human affaires are hazardous and haue some aduenture in them And therefore who require's euident certaintie only in matters of Religion discouer's in him self a lesse minde to the goods promised in the next life then to these which he seeke's here in this world vpon weaker assurāce Howsoeuer the greatest euidence that can be to him that is not capable of conuincing demōstrations which the greatest part of mankinde fall shortof is but cōiecturall for men doe not generally distinguish betwixt a solide and a wittie proofe and are as soone taken with a glosse or iesting speach as with a demonstration Let but this verie proofe I haue told you be put to some two men the one more the other lesse iudicious and the one perhapps will hold it for euident the other only for apparent and likly And certainely it is manifest that if our church was once the true church they who made a breach from hir must needes haue euident proofes of hir corruption or else be culpable of faction and schisme And yet of these two men I propose the one peraduenture will take this argumēt only for plausible and at the least checke forgoe it the other looking into the nature of Gouermēt and seeing what a flaw the contrarie position breede's in it and how in effect it destroye's all Gouerment will thinke it so strong that what soeuer is or can be said against it is but the playing of witt against pure euidēce Farther if we Catholikes hold the truth of scripture as conscientiously as anie Protestant and therefore that all controuersies betwixt vs and them are only concerning the sense of it and not touching the truth of it t' is manifest that Catholikes must ether be such dull dunces as not to vnderstand their arguments or so willfull as not to acknowledge what they see ād know otherwise surely they would agree with Protestants in all pointes which they could cōuince and demonstrate And againe this man who perceth deeper into the strength of this argument see 's that although some times learning may faile ād that vertue may haue a bridle for a while yet would not learnīg be learning if it should not for the most part worke it's effect in men and make them more capable of reason then others And much lesse can it be true vertue which is seldome efficacious sithence vertue 's nature is to be operatiue Wherefore this vnderstanding man that see 's there 's a more constant poursuite of vertue and learning on the one side then on the other conclude's euidently that there cā be no extraordinarie weaknesse on the learneder and more vertuous side in cōparison of the other And where he see 's more meanes paines and fruits of learning and vertue on the one side then on the other he will no more doubt supposing this be a constant and setled course on both sides but that of necessitie there must be more learning and vertue on that side where he see 's these effects no more I saie thē he can doubt whether necessarie causes will haue their effects as whether fire and towe put together will burne or whether effects cā be without their causes as howses clockes and the like without Carpenters smiths and other Artizans Yet perhapps he that barely looke's vpon the superficies of this discourse take's it only for a pleasing and probable consequence Ioyne to this the multitudes of Antiquitie I meane those ages wherein the Protestants acknowledge the Raigne of Poperie and surely thē there will not remaine to an vnderstanding man anie iuste cause to feare or complaine of hazard but rather a great occasion to admire and praise God's wisdome who hath prouided so short and secure a meanes for euerie man who is so happy and carefull as to acknowledge and embrace this guide of eternall saluatiō looking with an eye of commiseration vpō those whose dispositiōs being not fitted to the sight of this truth remaine in doubt and ignorance by diuing into questions wherein they are not able to finde satisfaction and so cast them selues awaie not for want of meanes but ether through their owne pride or by the misleading of their Directors Who not seeing what 's conuenient for the dispositiōs of their disciples throwe thē vpon the Rockes in stead of giuing them a fit harbour to anker in for if they would rely vpon this plane and open waie of our discourse commō sense would tell them if not what 's true at least what they ought to follow ād that as cleerely as that two and three are fiue Nephew I confesse the euidence you pleade is greate yet me thinke's one might obiect that seeing we heare it so often and so strongly beatē into vs that all men are falible and that nature it selfe seeme's to teach the same therefore as on the one side your reasons force me to grant that t' is the wiser course to vēter this waie so on the other I still remaine with this disposition that it may peraduenture be false which is able to shake a man's resolution and cowle his affection Vncle. Cosen you desire great matters and peraduenture more then your age and wauering dtsposition is able to beare Yet to complye with your good desires I will put you in the waie if you will haue patience to follow the tracke and you shall see §. 5 That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue descended entire vnto vs. FIrst therefore tell me I pray what time thinke you Christ and his Apostles imployed in preaching the Ghospell in anie one countrie Nephew I know Christ imployed some three yeares and a halfe or thereabouts for I thinke the time is not precisely agreed vpon by Cronologers But for the Apostles that I know not nor cā I guesse to what pourpose you aske me this question Vncle. Is it not like the Apostles bestowed neere about as much time S. Paule him self saie's so telling the Clergie of Ephesus that for three yeares he had not ceassed day and night to exhorte them with teares and warne them to take heede of false teachers And we may well thinke the like of the rest of the Apostles wheresoeuer they could conueniently doe it but specially in the churches in which they made their Residence But why thinke you tooke they so much time for so short a doctrine as you see Christian doctrine is being included in our Creede Nephew No doubt but their imployment was to make their
disciples and the people vnderstand perfectly and fully comprehende all pointes of Christian doctrine to resolue all doubts and difficulties to make the apprehension of the doctrine sincke into the verie soules of the people and to setle a forme of Gouerment and Conuersatiō and to invre the first Christiās to the practize of this doctrine whereby it might subsist and continue as long as possibly it could For this I see is the dictamē of prudence and wisdome in such a case and the course all those who foūd new institutions Vncle. You saie well And surely such a time for a litle Prouince of about two or three dayes iournay's semidiameter was verie sufficient for the instructing of their disciples in all materiall pointes and setling of instructers to succeede them But in case immediately after the decease or departure of the Apostle there should arise according to our sauiours forewarning false Prophets or Rauenous wolues vnder pretence of sainctitie endeauoring to deuoure the flocke nay that euen some amongst them selues out of vanitie should beginne some new doctrine How controuersies were decided immediatly after the Apostles drawing disciples after them and so making them selues head of a partie and of a doctrine contrarie to that which the Apostle had taught vrging reasons out of nature and texts out of that Apostles owne writings by whom they were taught or out of his follow Apostles and strengthen his partie by the adherence of manie of the weaker sort what I saie would the Gouernors and teachers of the faithfull doe in this case How would they behaue thē selues to hinder the ruine of their weaker breetheren Nephew I doe imagine that meeting together they would examine this new Doctrine taking sor their rule that doctrine which the Apostle deliuered vnto them And knowing that he could nether contradict him self nor anie of his Breetheren being all inspired by the Holy Ghost they would conclude that the Innouators reasons were captious his texts wrong vnderstood if they were obscure or corrupted if they were plaine For nothing could be so euident vnto them as that which for three yeares together had beene perpetually beaten into them where in they had beene continually examined and cleered and which had beene so long the fundation of their new manner of life and practize so that this must needes be the most euident vnto them of all things and therefore they would surely forgoe all other rules to gouerne them selues by this as being most frie from errour Vncle. Your conclusion follow 's plainely For they hauing no other stay of their beliefe then that S. Paul for example had taught them so t is cleere that to them these two questions were but one whether the opiniō proposed was true and whether it was accordimg to what S. Paul had taught them And therefore to be against that which they had beene taught to them was to be false So that there nether was nor could be anie other question in the church at that time in matters of faith but whether the Apostles had taught such a doctrine or no For the Apostles hauing spēt so much time in teaching Christian doctrine in so litle a Prouince what they had not taught must needes be presumed not to be necessarie and consequently not deseruing to make a schisme and breach amongst Christiās and what they had taught to be without all controuersie true and certaine Wherefore if such an Innouator would not stand to this iudgment he was to be expelled the church as disagreeing from the Christians in the principall rule and soueragne Tribunal of Christianitie by which and only which they could at that time decerne and decide what was Christian doctrine what not Happie that age in which it was so easie to resolue anie difficultie arisning for it was no more then to meete together and aske one an other How haue you beene taught And all was ended and who should haue resisted this decision was to be cast out with common consent as a reprobate But tell me cosen how long doe you thinke this Happinesse cōtinued in the church Nephew For the time of the Apostles and of their disciples who are commonly caled Apostolicall men ther 's no question to be made no nor of the age of the disciples of these Apostolicall men To whom I see not why I may not add yet an other age for doubtlesse those Apostolicall men must needes haue beene of that reputation as that what soeuer was constantly remembred to haue beene their doctrine was likewise to be esteemed the doctrine of the Apostles their Masters supposing it was knowne to bee vniuersally and generally theirs and not the opinion of some one or two of them only Vncle. And will it be a stumbling blocke vnto you if we add yet an other descent to wit of the Grandchildren of these Apostolicall mē for the memorie of publicke and generally practized things is fresh from Grandfathers vnto their Grandchildren So that this degree or goldē age may well consist of fiue descents that is of some 200 yeares allowing 40. yeares to a descēt which is not much seing that witneses of 60. yeares are ordinarily found in euerie busines in the same Prouince and therefore where the question is of a publicke and vniuersall practize which concernes manie countries and nations who haue intercourse and communication together such witneses may be much more easily found But what shall we saie of the next ensuing age Nephew I conceiue that these descents you speake of may easily haue reached to Constātine's time when Christian Religiō being publicke the multitudes of fathers and writers would supplie the deiect of this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or self seeing into the well spring of Christianitie But whether you driue that waie or no I know not Vncle. It is not needfull for sithence the last age doth directly know what was the Apostles doctrine All such ages as can reach to knowe the doctrine and practize of that last age are able certainely to resolue though in a lower degree anie arising difficultie not because they cā immediately tell that such a pointe is contrarie to the doctrine of the Apostles but because they can tell that t' is against the doctrine of the fist descēt which doctrine they know to be the dokrine of the Apostles Wherefore vpon the like ground we may add fiue descēts more which according to our former computation will make vp 400. yeares und peraduenture by extēt may reach to fiue or 600 yeares after Christ that is to the second conuersion of nations I meane to the conuersion of those barberous people which ouerunne the Roman Empire and brought almost all the world backe vnto the formerly extirpated paganisme Nephew Why then wee neede no more for the Protestāts confesse that Poperie hath raigned since Phocas his time nay they sticke not to saie that Gregorie the Great was the last good and first bad Pope seeming to thinke that frō him beganne that which they
call Poperie And truly in his Dialogues which are sett out in English there 's more then enough to show that the Religion of his time was the same which we now professe And we that haue our cōuersion from him according to venerable Bede wee I saie who are descended from the Saxons neuer haue had anie Religiō but that which the Protestants call Poperie And therefore to vs English men it is most cleere that we neuer had anie Religiō since Gregorie the great 's time but Poperie And therefore if the Religion that then raigned was the faith of the Apostles it will euidently follow that Poperie was their faith Vncle. Surely not only writers but euen Records and Monuments are so thicke since the conuersion of those nations which ouer runne the Romā world that no peruerse man cā requite more euidēce And surely it was God's prouidence who setled as it were a new world and purged the old whilest Religion could yet looke backe and see hir head as it were with one vewe But I hoped you would haue induced a farther consequence and applyed the argument to later ages Nephew I am affraid these calculations may ouer reach me for I fee the father and the sonne 's age doe concurre in some part and therefore by counting them seuerally the number of yeares will be greater then in deede ought to be allowed Vncle. You saie well and therefore we will only take that number of yeares which the father ordinarily liueth before the birth of his sonne As if the sonne be supposed to be 20. yeares of age when the father testifieth and the father 60. Which you see is verie cōmon and so the number of yeares of one descent will be 40. Which is the number we put But if the father be 80. when the sonne is 20. then the number of one descent wil be 60. Which though it be some what great because it is rare that a man hath a child at 60. yet t' is not so rare but a thousand may bee found in a competent extent as in the Kingdome of England and this number is amply sufficient for the effect we desire for fiue descents of 60. yeares make 300. yeares And hauing tould you how a generall practize of anie countrie is knowne by a kind of self seeing for fiue descents which include's at least 200. yeares it will follow that coūting downe frō Christ time to ours by two ages at a time we may frame our discourse thus As those who liued in the beginning of the third age could certainely know they held the Apostles doctrine so those who liued in the beginning of the fift age could certainely know they held the doctrine of those of the beginning of the third age that is the doctrine of the Apostles And by the like cōsequēce those of the 7. age will be certaine they are in the same faith of those of the fift and those of the 9. in the faith of those of the 7. And so to our verie selues And all are certaine that they are in the faith of the Apostles The reason of this consequence is because two ages is not so great a space but that certaine knowledge of publicke and generall chāges through a kingdome much more through manie may be easily had nor yet are two ages so litle as that a great errour could lurke vnseene and lye smoothered for so long a time We therefore who now liue in communion with the Roman church know certainely that our forefathers of the 16. and 15 ages did conceiue that this faith and doctrine which we hold did I saie conceiue and thinke it to haue descended vnto them from the Apostles And we know likewise that they could not conceiue and thinke so but that they knew the 14. and 13. ages did belieue the same Nor those of the 14. and 13. ages could not haue the same beliefe vnlesse they had seene and receiued it in and from the 12. and the 11. age And putting all these together the certaintie whereof is immediatly founded in this our age you see they comprehēde six ages if we put 40. yeares to a descent and will comprehende 8. or 9. ages if we put 60. to a descent So that two or at must three such cōpositiōs will reach beyond Christ's birth And therefore we doe not nor cannot want euidence but eyes to see it Nephew Your discourse will be good supposing the pointe in cōtrouersie be some publicke and great matter or a notorious change in the face of God's church But why might not some speculatiue pointe creepe in without being taken notice of such as was the pointe of the Arrians or Pelagians if there had not happened with all so great an opposition and quarelling as shaked almost the whole church why no neW point cā creepe into the church without a great change Vncle. There be two reasons why no pointe of Christian doctrine can be so smale as to creepe in without a great change The one is because Christian doctrine is a discipline whose parts are so knit together as that one thred cānot be broken but it will rauell through manie stiches As frō th' Arriā heresie denying Christ to be God it would follow no Trinitie and so Christians would easily become naturall philosophers and Pagans no Incarnation that is no God and man in one person All the payeres and adorations which the church had vsed hitherto were to be changed The forme of baptisme were to be altered And thus we might goe through the most part of Christian doctrine if we looke into the sequels of Arrianisme And such like consequences may be deduced out of Pelagianisme and out of almost all othet heresies which haue not runne beyōd all face of Christianitie because they were quickly opposed and so hindered from shewing the serpent's taile which lurked behinde The other reason is because no new doctrine can preuaile in the church of God without impeaching tradition the rule of faith for that being once broken and reiected by the same right and principle by which they professe one errour they may professe anie And you see the disciples of Heresiarckes neuer faile to grow worse thē their Masters Luther broke the Ice by appealing to scripture Suinglius went farther then he th' Anabaptists exceeded the Swinglians the Adamistes passed th' Anabaptists the Socinians the Adamistes and some went beyond Christianitie others euen beyond common sense wherefore it is impossible anie breach should be made in the church without a maine and notorious chāge in the whole face of Christianitie Nephew I see now vncle it was not without cause you asked me what time the Apostles imployed in teaching Christiā doctrine to some one Prouince or Countrie your whole discourse seeme's to depende vpō this that the Apostles did not barely tell the faithfull what Christ had donne and taught bud did inculcate and beat it into thē both by words and actions invring thē to the practize of their beliefe their
guifts But this point concerne's not our present discourse Nephew I confesse I now cleerely see that the Christian church hath conserued it self from error supposing that the Pastors and Gouernors of it haue carefully taken notice from time to time of their forefather's doctrine and I am beholden to you for this lesson But may not the church haue beene neglected herein Though I scarsely haue courrage enough to aske you this question for I see you will answere me that nature must needes haue it's recourse and that howsoeuer at some times or places it may haue defects yet must it of necessitie at other times and in other places haue it's returnes and freshly renew it's care and be sollicitous of so great a good which cannot but fall out once within 5. or 600. yeares that is within the terme prefixed wherein she may discouer the doctrine of hir forefathers cōstantly held and generally deliuered to be the doctrine of Christ ād his Apostles Neuerthelesse if you could shew me that the church had in effect so conserued it selfe I should be more able to conuince a peruerse opponent and demonstrate §. 8 That the truth of Christian doctrine hath actually continued in the church VNcle Is it possible you should be so vnreasonable as to aske me to proue a thing which depede's of ma's will yet that you may see how great the workes of Almightie God are and how nothing is so variable but that he can fixe and make it constant I will endeauour to let you vnderstād as much as my self in this point so you will be attentiue and raise a litle your vnderstāding to answere me in the waie of rigorous discourse which you haue some experience in by the mathematickes you haue tasted Tell me then doe you thinke that if anie great congregation of men now liuing hold this maxime for their faith and Religion that nothing is to be held for certaine and as a reuealed truth but what they haue receiued frō their forefathers as a thing deliuered by hand to hand from the Apostles And that what soeuer is not so receiued is not immutable but may be altered if reason commande doe you thinke I saie that this Congregation could in this our age haue begunne to hold this maxime or that as they receiued the rest of their doctrine from their forefathers they must not also haue receiued this tenet Nephew Truly I cannot tell you for me thinke's it were absurde to receiue all the rest from their forefathers ād take this of new which is the rule of all the rest yet I doe not see it so cleerely as that I am able to conuince that t' is so Vncle. Why cosen let vs put the case that there were a Generall Coūcell of all Christendome sitting for example in the yeare 1600. And aftermuch disputation about finding a rule to setle matters of Religion they should agree that to receiue nothing but what had beene deliuered vnto them by hand to hand frō Christ and his Apostles were the best waie to end all disputations of Religion and there vpon decree that hereafter nothing should be held for certaine and immutable but what were so receiued And that amongst these Bishops one should rise vp and make this difficultie we cannot know that anie thing is receiued by hand to hand from Christ vnlesse our forefathers who liued in the last age 1500. haue deliuered it vnto vs as such which they cannot haue deliuered vnto vs but by one of these two waies ether because we knowe they had this same principle which we seeke here ro setle to wit that they tooke nothing for immutably certaine and of faith but what was so deliuered vnto them And then we know what soeuer they haue deliuered vnto vs for a matter of faith was like wise receiued by them or atleast they thought it to be receiued in the same māner and therefore we may be confident of it Or else they must haue declared vnto vs what is so receiued what not that the one part may be accepted by vs and established as matters of faith the other held in lesse esteeme and as no points of faith This secōd we know hath not beene done And therefore if our forefathers had not this principle how should we haue it For if they had it not and haue deliuered our doctrine and Religiō vnto vs without distinctiō we must of necessitie accept much for Religion faith and as receiued frō Christ which we know not whether it was so or no And therefore wee must ether willfully deceiue our selues and our successors accounting and esteeming things which were neuer receiued from Christ to haue beene receiued from him and so falsly deliuer them for such to our successors and consequētly ground both our faith and theirs vpon this vntruth that our tenets were receiued from Christ Or else we must content our selues as our forefathers haue done and setle no new ground of ending cōtrouersies in Religion If one I saie should make this difficultie in that graue Assemblie would it not puzzell them all and put them of from their resolution Nephew Truly vncle it could not chuse vnlesse they were obstinately resolued to damne thē selues and all their posteritie and that impudently in the sight of the whole world which would reproach them with so notorious an imposture Nor can I imagine how such a position though once begunne should take roote The whole world being able to see ād deteste the indignitie of it And because I foresee your drift I will grāt you may frame the same argument for anie age ād cōsequētly there is no age in which this resolutiō could haue beene first taken vp but only in such an one in which it was cleerely knowne what the Apostles taught and what they did not by witnesse from thē who had their doctrine from their owne mouths that is the verie next age after the Apostles So that we may euidently conclude that a church which now holdeth with vniuersall consent this principle which you speake of must of necessitie haue held the same from the next age after the Apostles Vncle. But can you now tell me cosen whether this cōgregatiō as long as it adhere's to this principle can receiue anie thing of this nature and qualitie cōtrarie to what their forefathers deliuered vnto thē vpon this same principle And note I pray I doe not aske whether they can receiue anie thing but what they apprehēd to be so but I aske whether they can receiue anie thing as such but that which truly is so deliuered that is whether they can be cosened in this questiō Whether their forefathers deliuered it vnto them so or no. Nephew T' is euident they cannot For although one mā may be deceiued in what is tould him specially at one time yet to saie whole nations are deceiued in what is tould thē not once or twice but what they are bredd and beatē to is as much as to saie all men are deceiued
in iudging white froÌ„ blacke because for sooth some weake eyes are now aÌ„d theÌ„ mistaken or as to saie no bodie can walke because some haue the palsey which were in deede to destroye nature and it's constancie in vniuersalls because of it's defectibilitie in it's particulars which is against common sense and reason Vncle. Well then doe you thinke their immediate forefathers could teach theÌ„ anie thing as of this qualitie but what themselues belieued and had receiued in the same manner Nephew No surely their immediate forefathers could not deliuer anie thing as of this nature to their successors against the doctrine which they had receiued from their predecessours euer standing in this principle that nothing is to be belieued as of necessitie in this degree but what came by hand to hand froÌ„ Christ or his Apostles Vncle. Tell me then I pray whether in the two last pointes that is whether ether we can be deceiued in what was deliuered by our immediate forefathers vnto vs as of this kinde or they deliuer vs anie doctrine as of this qualitie but what them selues receiued in the like sort whether I saie in ether of these two points there be anie differeÌ„ce betwixt anie former age and this our presentage or that what you haue granted of this age the same must not necessarily hold in all other ages euer since Christ Nephew I confesse I see noe difference Vncle. Reflect then vpon what you haue granted and considere whether anie error against a receiued doctrine aÌ„d practize of this nature could so creepe in as that there shoud be no determinate age of it's beginning in which it first tooke roote and flourished Nephew T' is not possible that anie thing should beginne and yet beginne in no time For I conceiue that an age is no smale time aÌ„d giue 's no litle growth to anie thing that beginne's so that to saie anie point of doctrine is a whole age in growing aÌ„d to saie with all it is imperceptible and after a whole age vnsensible is without doubt senslesse Yet if anie should saie that an error had beene begun by a priuate man and taught to some in one age which being neglected grew into practize in some one countrie and froÌ„ theÌ„ce by the like neglect grew likewise to be customarie in the next adioyning and so spredd it self vntill it had possessed the hart of Christendome and this for manie yeares so that now all memorie that euer the contrarie had beene in credit and practize were lost if this I saie one should tell me I doubt whether I should be able to giue him a conuincing answere and demonstratiue satisfaction Vncle. Cosen this question trencheth vpon what we haue alreadie talked of therefore I will only giue you such a hint as your self may worke vpon First it is as manifest an impossibilitie that a change of Religion should be introduced insensibly into anie one Countrie as that a burning feauer should for as long time consume the same whole couÌ„trie without being taken notice of or sought to be preuented sithence as we saide nature permit's vs not generally to be sleepie in Religion Secondly to saie it shall passe imperceptible from country to countrie and so get possession of the whole Christian world is farr more impossible men's natures and dispositioÌ„s being so diuers that if they were put to we are cappes or shoes a like it could not be effected but by some publicke force or commande Thirdly that this should be for so long a terme that the coÌ„trarie practize should be quit forgotteÌ„ to haue beene formerly in vse and request is yet beyoÌ„d both So that who soeuer is troubled with this doubt doth not rightly vnderstand the nature of Christian Religion which is a truth of the qualitie of science hanging all together Wherevnto a truth may be added and yet remaine whole but if anie falsitie or crosse position be admitted it will not only destroy the positioÌ„ immediatly opposite but also what soeuer dependeth of it that is all in deede but cheefely tradition And so we see by experience that none euer moued anie point of faith but if their reuolt dured loÌ„g they proceeded so farr as to take a waie tradition the rule of all we are to belieue But can you tell me haue we reached to the resolution of your demande aÌ„d are you fully satisfied Nephew This you haue concluded that if our church rely vpon traditioÌ„ now it euer did so And if it euer did rely vpon tradition it must needes haue maintained the same doctrine from Christ's time to ours for nether could anie former age deliuer anie thing contrarie to what they had receiued vpon this principle nor we mistake what they deliuered so that nothing contrarie to the first receiued doctrine can be admitted This yet me thinke's waÌ„teth To shew that the present Roman church rely's vpon tradition which I confesse to me is euident at least that what soeuer we haue receiued froÌ„ our forefathers as comming by-hand to hand from Christ that we reuerence and receiue all such pointes as being necessarie to be belieued Only I haue one scruple wherein I must craue your helpe And it is Whether this rule of traditioÌ„ which you giue to be so constantly held to be the rule of faith whether I saie it be so admitted of by all Catholikes or no for I feare the varietie of contrarie opinions which I heare are amoÌ„gst our learned men will preiudice your argumeÌ„s Wherefore I could wish you woud shew me §. 9 That the dissention of Catholike Doctor concerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of Tradition FOr I am tould how true I know not that some of our Deuines mantaine that in the person of the Pope reside's the rule of faith by a singular guift and priuiledge bestowed vpon S. Peeter and his successors And this so rigorously that no Generall Councell no not although the Pope's Legats be present and confirme it is of force to oblige â—â— of faiht vntill the personall confirmation of his Holinesse be obtained Others they saie esteeme the Councell aboue the Pope and so doe not hold the Pope's approbation of a Councell to be necessarie but that this rule of faith reside's in the Councell Others I heare to make all safe ioyne both in one and nether admit the Councell without the Pope not the Pope without the Councell to breede anie obligation of faith And farther I heare that amongst these Deuines of what opinion soeuer they be touching the subiect in which this rule or highest authoritie doth reside there be some which thinke that not anie new doctrine or position can be broached or proposed as certaine and as an article of faith by what authoritie soeuer vnlesse that doctrine was esteemed certaine before and euer belieued as such Yet I am tould there be manie who mantaine and â—ouch that this highest authoritie of the church wheresoeuer it be may and can define points of doctrine not
certainely knowne hitherto nor euer expressy belieued before Which how they may be reconciled amongst them selues or stand with this that tradition is our rule of faith I confesse I know not Vncle. Truly cozen your obiection is strong yet I hope to content you For the first part of it I see no great matter in the varietie of opinions amongst our Deuines for you see they seeke out the Decider of pointes of doctrine that is by whose mouth we are to know vpon occasions of dispute what and which be our pointes and articles of faith to wit whether the Pope or the Councell or both Which is not much materiall to our pourpose what euer the truth be supposing we acknowledge no articles of faith but such as haue descended vnto vs by tradition from Christ and his Apostles The second part of your obiection seeme's to be of greater force because some Deuines seeme to acknowledge an authoritie in the church which hath power not only to determine ether speculatiue or practicall points of doctrine new or ould in such manner as that the whole church is obliged to accepte or not oppose it's definition which euerie Catholike grante's and the reasons I tould you in our first conference doe euidently conuince But also that this authoritie can so determine euen a speculatiue pointe of doctrine which hitherto was euer vncertaine nor euer acknowledge as reueiled or esteemed as an article of faith that here after the vhole church shal be obliged to receiue acknowledge and belieue it as a reuealed and necessarie point of Christian doctrine and as an article of faith Which opinion you must knowe is but an opinion nor doe the authours of it oblige anie man to belieue it as certaine nor doe they condemne those who nether doe nor euer will acknowledge anie such positiō ād therefore this ought not to trouble you Nay contrariwise all Deuines will generally tell you that no new articles of faith can be made that there 's now no reuelations for new points of doctrine and that Christ Iesus was our only law maker in this kinde hauing suggested to his Apostles all that is necessarie of this nature and qualitie and the Apostles likewise taught their churches all that was necessarie to be knowne of this degree Wherefore you see all agree vpon tradition nor anie one ether denie it or doubt of it Whereas it appeare's by the diuersitie of their opinions that they doe not vniuersally and generally agree in anie other meanes or rule of faith though some admitte of another in waie of opinion Yet to giue you farther satisfaction in this busines I will teach you a point of philosophie which perhapps you neuer fully vnderstood I am sure you will not denie but t' is a differēt questiō to aske how an herbe or tree growe's and to aske how Aristole or Theophrastus saies it growe's for in the same growing there can be no varietie but in their opiniōs there may So in man t' is a differēt thing what he doth or is done in him and what he thinkes he doth or is done in him as in sicknesse disgestion and other naturall workes t' is euident yea and in voluntary actions too Which depende of corporall instruments as to goe runne turne our eyes speake cough spit or the like which we doe freely and voluntarily yet were we examined by what instruments and motiōs we doe thē peraduēture who seeme's to know most would be found short at least amongst manie there would be diuers opinions But doe you thinke the same happen's in our thoughts and iudgmēts which be purely spirituall Nephew I cannot tell yet me thinke's the soule should be so wel acquainted with hir owne actiōs as that she should not neede anie helpe to know them And all men agree that only man vpon earth can see his owne minde and therefore if it be not cleere to man what himself thinke's nothing is cleere Vncle. You are deceiued cosen for as long as we are in this world we cannot know anie thing of our owne thoughts and affections but as we reflect vpon the corporall motions which accompanie them and which because none feele but our selues none can knowe bur our selues though sometimes it happene's quite contrarie when these motiōs breake forth into outward apparence for thē others discrye our mindes and we our selues through the violēce of passiō are not so wel able ro iudge of them as others who see vs. But to speake of men free from passion and who vse to reflect much vpon their owne thoughts euen in them their internall actions proceede frō a principle directed by a superior guide then their owne reason as appeare's by this that they know nothing of their owne thoughts but by reflection and the reflection is a distinct act from the former vpon which the reflectiō is made so that nether the reflectiō it self is alwaise made by voluntarie designe nor anie act which is made without reflection Besides considere I pray how few know by what verue their vnderstandings are made certaine of those principles and positiōs which they cannot doubt of or by what vertue they adhere so strongly to the conclusion of a sylogisme not one of a thousand who doe these things euerie day Wherefore t' is euidēt that euen in our spirituall actions not all that we doe is done by our proper vnderstāding that is with knowing reflection and designe and therefore the same man may euē in these intellectuall acts doe one thing and thinke he doth an other and diuers men may agree in what they doe and yet disagree in their opinions of what it is they doe And now to close with your difficultie seeing faith is a persuasion or an agreeing in some points by reason af authoritie All the Doctors of the Catholike church may agree in beleeuing that is in acting and practizing their faith in the same manner and yet be deuided in their speculations by which they seeke to determine what it is they doe And it is their doeings which make's them Christians and not their sayings for they liue and beleeue as Christians but speake and deliuer their opinions as Doctors which be qualities farr different from being a Christian And doe you not see that these Doctors belieue after their speculations and framing of their opinions as they did before they thought of or studied this difficultie Nephew I doe not doubt but they doe for the faith of all Christians must needes be the same and consequently all must goe vpon the same motiue though one may vnderstand better and apprehende deeper that motiue then an other doth Vncle. You saie well Considere then that when these Doctors were yong men and had not yet studied Diuinitie and you shall finde that they had no other motiue of their belife but the authoritie of the present church and therefore how soeuer they discourse learnedly in their bookes the conclusion must be in their liues to rest vpon the authoritie of the
present church as before they did Nephew Nay if you goe that waie to worke I feare you will fall short of your intent For the child belieue's father and mother the parishoner his Pastor without reflection of the present church T' is like therefore these Deuines rely vpoÌ„ the motiues which they mantaine what soeuer they did when they were yong Vncle. Not so nether for as the water of the new riuer which is brought to London come's to a particular house by a smale pipe yet t' is continuate to the whole bodie of the riuer so the instruction of faith though it come to a child by his parents and to a parishoner by his Pastor yet the dependence of the doctrine is from the whole church whose members and instruments these parents and Pastors are if they be in the church to which you know I tould you what is required And t' is the like when parents teach their children what is to be done or auoided according to the lawes of the couÌ„try for though the father speake yet t' is the common wealth which preuaileth and bindeth Nephew At least me thinke's vncle such great Doctors should not be ignorant of a point agreed vpon by the whole church and therefore since they disagree about the motiue of faith I doe not see how you can saie t' is generally agreed on in the Catholike church Vncle. Had this agreemeÌ„t beene made in a Generall Councell or in some vniuersall meeting of faithfull ChristiaÌ„s and so recorded I doubt not but these learned Clarkes would haue knowne it but it was not so agreed on Yet as by the vniuersall blessing of crescite multiplicamini Gen. 1. all men and beasts agreed vpon feeding and filling the world euerie one in his kinde by the directioÌ„ of their maker knocking at their stomackes when they were hungrie and at their pharisie when they were full to set on worke those instruments by which the se coÌ„mands of Almightie God were to be fullfilled Marc 16 Euen so by the like blessing of Euntes in mundam vniuersum praedicate omni creaturae the Apostles being dispersed into all natioÌ„s by the vertue of doeing miracles found credulitie or rather forced faith out of the flintie harts of the corrupted world and hauing setled Christs doctrine dying left in their successors soules and mindes this agreement To belieue what was deliuered from them and to trust those who had heard them speake and afterwards to trust those who had heard it from them who had their instruction from the Apostles and lastly to trust the publike consent which affirmed that they held their faith by entaile from them though manie ages after This agreement being written in harts and not in bookes t' is easie for learned men who seeke their learning in bookes and not in harts to mistake As in Philosophie whilest great Clarkes seeke nature not in it self but in other men's sayings they are deuided and few in the right the truth being but one Nephew You haue beene as good as you word For I see it importe's not that our Deuines be of different opinions in this point so that in their liues and practize they agree And truly I neuer heard of anie Catholike that ether doubted but that Christian doctrine was descended by Tradition or thought that what was so descended could be false nay I thinke euerie moderate and wise Protestant will make no question of that which he conceiues to haue descended from the Apostles by succession For Catholikes wee all rely vpon the censure of the present church nor can or â—are anie man appeale froÌ„ it and call him self a Catholike for we all account them infidels and publicans who are refractorie to this tenet Wherfore t' is euident that what soeuer the church speake's and deliuer's for Tradition is agreed vpon by all Catholikes to be certaine and vnrefusable and sithence all other motiues or rules of faith are not vniuersally receiued t' is euident likewise that this is the rule which can oblige vs to certaintiem matters of beliefe But I haue an other great difficultie to wit that I see our Catechists and preachers wheÌ„ they teach vs Christian doctrine tell vs this you are to belieue this you are to practize without expressing the differences which are betwixt the points of doctrine whereof perhapps some are but only the answeres of learned men some definitioÌ„s of the church and some matters of traditioÌ„ And the like I belieue of former ages Christian doctrine descending vnto vs in a heape or confusion and therefore t is hard to distinguish what is of Tradition what the generall consent of the church and what only learned men's opinions Why then may not some position of this last rancke passe for a tradition by the adoption of some ages in which it will be forgotten that euer it had it's beginning froÌ„ the wit and industrie of priuate men And to satisfie me in this point you must let me see how that The teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what is of necessitie to be belieued what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition VNcle If I should answere you that former ages haue beene more exact in distinguishing things certaine from vncertaine it would not be without ground as you may see by the framing of antient creedes aÌ„d other professions of faith as occasions required but this were to send you to antiquitie whereas in this discourse you know we both desire that common sense and reason without farther enquiry should be our iudge Wherefore the point you speake of which you feare might deceiue vs by the likenesse of tradition is ether true or false if true then I pray what incoÌ„uenience is there if it surprise vs in the qualitie of it's certaintie Nephew This I feare and thinke that it would breake the rule and certaintie of Tradition Where vpon relye's the whole building and frame of our faith according to your discourse For if once truth not deliuered by traditioÌ„ may passe for so deliuered what securitie can we haue that a falsitie may not likewise passe in the same maÌ„ner and so bring an errour amongst vs Vncle. I put you only that part of the question if the point were true which you draw into the contrarie if it were false wherefore if it doe not follow that an vntruth can deceiue vs in that kinde then there is no incoÌ„uenieÌ„ce in the consequeÌ„ce of the former part to wit that truth may be taken as deliuered by traditioÌ„ which truly is not so deliuered And the reason is cleare for seeing the truths of ReligioÌ„ are knowne for the framing of our liues conformably vnto them it importe's litle in respect of vertue vpon what grounds they are held in particular so they be vniuersally and coÌ„stantly held for an action done in consequence of such belieued truths is neuer the worse for the qualitie of the certaintie of it's obiect Yet for your farther satisfaction this I will adde
that how soeuer the common people doe not distinguish what is of Tradition and what is but of some learned men's opinioÌ„s neuerthelesse those whom we call Deuines if truly they be such as the name require's may aÌ„d doe distinguish positions of such different natures For Christian doctrine is not a bundle of loose positions as those who negligently looke on it may thinke but a true discipline hanging together by consequences and order tending to one end And of this doctrine and discipline some parts be such as cannot be knowne but by immediate reuelation others such as no sensible man can doubt of if he beleeue the former And learned meÌ„ know that of both these two the one is expresly deliuered by tradition the other is as firme as if it were so deliuered For as it was reueiled that our sauiour is truly God and man so euerie man of coÌ„mon sense knowes that he had two wills Deuine and human against the Monothelites Other points there may be which neede art and studie to deduce and fetch them out of the two former And of these likewise a true Deuine cannot be ignoraÌ„t being they are be fruits of learning and studie and consequently haue euer beene in the soules and writings of learned Masters And these points euerie one knowes who is conuersant in Logike and in iudging the qualities of such propositions as belong to scieÌ„ce And your self I am sure by the litle skill you haue therein and by the smale light of this discourse will eastly iudge that this is reasonable Nephew I conceiue your meaning but whereas you saie that the points of the second order are as firme as those which are deliuered by Tradition me thinke's that 's not reasonable sithence Tradition relye's wholy on God and his word but the other only vpoÌ„ man's discourse which is falible and easily mistaken and therefore must of necessitie be much inferior Vncle. I would not haue you take my words so precisely not in so rigorous a degree of comparison for so euen of demonstrations the precedent will be esteemed more certaine then that which is deduced out of it though in a morall eâ—tiâ—ation the certainties be equall And so it is in those two degrees for truly that litle discourse which is required for the second degree is infalible certaine and euident and therefore the knowledge proceeding froÌ„ it may well be rancked with the former degree But I suppose you expect to heare why it doth not follow that if a truth not deliuered by Tradition may neuerthelesse passe for such why I saie an errour may not haue the same progresse and surprise the church that is §. 11 Why no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God ANd this I will shew you in a word because it falleth into the repetitioÌ„ of what we haue alreadie discoursed on The impossibilities are three First it trencheth vpon the resolution wee formerly made that one man's authoritie could not preuaile against and ouer the whole church for this is the difference betwixt a truth and a false hood that a truth though it beginne from one yet may it be accepted of by all by reason of it's euidence Which when one hath laid opeÌ„ others may follow not for the man's authoritie but for the loue of the seene truth Whereas falsehood which cannot bring euidence with it must be bolstered vp by the man's credit aÌ„d reputation which you know is insufficient Secondly it is impossible an errour should generally preuaille by reason of the immutabilitie which is in the vniuersalitie of contingent causes whose particulars may be defectiue but the vniuersalls cannot So that as it is impossible in nature that all children should be borne with one eye all coltes with three leggs or the like so were it a monstrous accident and that in a higher and more immutable nature if an errour should generally preuaile and passe through all mankinde or through so great a part of it as we make accounte the Catholike church is and will euer be The third impossibilitie is because it trencheth vpon the stabilitie of Religion for sithence we agreed that t' is impossible for anie nation to haue no Religion and as impossible to change a true into a false And likewise that Christian doctrine hath the nature of science so farre as that no errour can fall into it but must bring contradiction and opposition against the principles and receiued practize of the church and so make a breach against the antient possession it doth therefore plainely appeare that as it is impossible for such a breach to become vniuersall in time and place so likewise must it needes be impossible that an vntruth should be vniuersally receiued for tradition hauing not beene deliuered as such Nephew I must confesse your reasons seeme good yet might one saie all your reasoÌ„s are but morall persuasions which may faile as if one should saie it is reasonable to thinke an honest man will not lye yet I doubt not but some times the coÌ„trarie happene's Wherefore I pray you tell me §. 12 Of what qualitie you thinke these your reasons and discourses be and whether you conceiue them to beare an absolute certaintie VNcle I feare it will be to farr on the night before I can satisfie your difficultie yet I will shew you breefly and familiarly what may suffice Tell me then doe you thinke there is such a towne as Rome or Constantinople Nephew That I doe I would I knew what I aske as well Vncle. Why who tould you there were anie such townes Nephew Truly I doe not remember who tould me so in particular but I haue heard so manie talke of them without doubting that it were follie to doubt of it Vncle. But if I or some other of whose honestie you doe not doubt should tell you we haue beene there and haue seene those townes with our owne eyes would you belieue it more certainely then you doe Nephew No in deede vncle for although I should in that case make no doubt of it yet their authorities vpon which I doe alreadie belieue it are no lesse nay farr greater seeing that if it were not fo manie more of no lesse credit and reputation must be lyars whoÌ„ though I cannot name yet nature tell 's me that if thousands had not reported it of their owne knowledge it could not passe so constaÌ„tly and vncontrowlably as is doth Vncle. But if a man should come with manie great reasoÌ„s and motiues to persuade you that there is not euer was anie such cities a we speake of Nay let vs suppose that if you liued but 20 myles from London where euerie day you fawe hundreth's come from theÌ„ce and your self had neuer beene there And there should come vnto you a man who should labour to shew by reason that it were a follie to thinke there were anie such towne as LondoÌ„ Or to make our supposition more strong suppose you had liued diuers yeares in London and had neuer seene
the firmenesse of Tradition Nephew You tould me the Tradition of Christian faith was a great while a planting in the harts of men by the force of miracles and that not only in their vnderstandings but also in their wills and affectiōs and so cultiuated vntill the maine of the people were constantly persuaded there was no saluation without it This was done at the same time in manie Countries not knowing one of an other nor being able to correspōde and frame anie draught of beliefe together but euerie one receiuing what was deliuered him from his preacher Vncle. Why now then cosen rerurne to your obiectiōs ād looke how they vrge ād what force they haue against this your declaration of tradition Nephew As for Adam's children I see that one man and one woman were the only witneses of such a thing as the partys to whom they tould it could hardly belieue it was so strange Nay them selues had so litle experience of those strange things which they tould that for anie thing we know they neuer as much as tasted of anie fruit in Paradise but of the forbidden tree And what care they had of anie Religion more thē to recōmēde God's seruice to their children and that only as lōg as they liued with them we know not so that it seeme's what they taught tooke no strong roote nor in manie For Noth the same answere may be giuen two of his sonnes parting shortly from him ether into farr countries or at least into such a distance as that they seldome came to see him Wherefore I perceiue there is a great difference betwixt the deliuerie of Christ's Gospell and of the law of God to those fathers of the old Testament Vncle. Your remarkes are good ones And in deede seeing we haue required that Tradition should haue the continuance of nature We must see that it be plāted accordingly which you haue well noted to haue beene performed in Christ's law but not in the tradition of the ould law the fathers and people of that time being much hindered by the great busines of the world's plantation Euerie mā seeking to plant countries build cities finde out commodities for the cōseruation of man's life Which were occupations farr different from the thoughts of heauen and things of the next world To this you may add that there was not then anie setled orders of Priests and men whose fūctiō should be to inculcate the necessitie of Religion into men's eares and harts which we knowe the Apostles had care to performe euerie where Againe there was no such correspondēce betwixt countrie and countrie in those times as hath euer beene amongst Christians specially by the mediation of a cheefe Bishop which Christ hath set amongst vs. And no doubt but these two last points be two maine and cheefe causes of the propagation and conseruation of Christiā faith You may yet add that euē the points of faith were not then able to worke vpon man's nature so powerfully as since Christ's comming according to our yesternight's discourse So that the roote and strēgth of Tradition being grounded vpon this that such a beliefe is fixed in peoples harts of seuerall natiōs the examples faile in three things First that the multitude was not capable of it it being so spirituall and abstract Secondly that it was not inculcated with that feruour of spirit assistance of the holy Ghost and abundance of continuall miracles as Christ's law was Thirdly that there was not a set forme and institution of Priests and Gouernors to ioyne all nations in communion for the conseruation of their beliefe Wherefore it neuer had the roote and nature of an vniuersall Traditiō And by these examples you may easily answere all other obiections of this nature And now I will leaue you least I should ouer wearie both you and my self Nephew You saie well vncle yet that I may be sure to haue fully cōceiued the maine drift of your instructions I pray let me see if I can make §. 15 The cōclusion of all our discourse IT was first your intention to giue me a rule how to gouerne my self in the choise of Religion Then you concluded that scripture could not be this rule Where vpon you laid me downe two waies how to resolue my self The first was that standing vpon the ground of prepossession there was no likelyhood or probabilitie that the Protestants arguments could be sufficient to ouer ballance the Catholikes because they must be conuincing cleerely or else were to be reiected And that the Protestants should bring anie cōuincing and demōstratiue arguments against the Catholikes there is no apparence Catholikes being more in number in qualitie greater schollers ād in life more vertuous And on the contrarie side Protestants hauing no principles or commāde which may make them agree amongst themselues And you shewd me that though this persuasiō did not euidently conuince the Catholike faith to be true yet did it manifestly proue that the Catholike was to be chosen by an vnlearned man Your second waye was by giuing a direct proofe that the Catholike doctrine is true which you did in threeseuerall manners First by shewing that it was no hard matter for the Catholike church to conserue the truth of hir doctrine if she were carefull which histories plainely shew she was Secondly shewing that nature doth force men to haue care of Religiō and therefore that it was impossible anie error should so creepe into the church as that it should be vniuersally receiued the verie nature of man and human affaires contradicting it's progresse Thirdly shewing how the church now relying vpon Tradition must of necessitie haue euer done so and that if it hath euer done so it could not let anie falsehood creepe in nor suffer anie error to be generally admitted This is all I remember sauing the soluing of some obiections and the discouering of some of my impertinent answeres which I hope you will excuse and forget If I haue missed I pray direct me Vncle. Yo haue taken good notice and I thinke my paines well bestowed only I would intreate you to make a litle reflection and comparison betwixt the knowledge which we haue by these meanes and that which scripture afforde's vs if we handle it in a litigious waye as in cōtrouersies we necessarily must And you shall finde that Tradition is grounded vpon that which all men agree in and vpon that which is common to all ages all nations all conditiōs But the knowledge which we haue by scripture is grounded vpon that which is different in euerie nation Hence spring's an other differēce to wit that the one is planted in nature and in what God created in man the other in what men them selues framed and that not by designe or art but by custome and chance Out of which againe ensueth that the one is capable of necessitie and consequently of a perfect demonstration as all naturall things are the other not The one is fixed vpon vniuersalls the other vagabonde in particulars As for example who is able to demonstrate that a word in controuersie hath no other sense then that which is necessarie for his pourpose Or where the constructiō may be made diuers waies that the true one is that which he pleadeth Who can demonstrate amōgst varieties of texts which was in the Autograph Or that the copies we haue are not defectiue And the like which ordinarily are necessarie if we will euindently conuince our intent out of the place we choose On the other side To shew that whole multitudes of seuerall nations cannot misse in what hath beene a thousand times ouer ād ouer inculcated vnto them That a world cannot conspire to cosen their posteritie That mankinde cannot accepte of a doctrine against an euident principle which they likewise hold and mātaine these being the maximes Tradition depende's on to shew I saie these things there needes no deepe learning being both knowne of them selues and also as necessarily conioint and dependant of man's nature as his other naturall actions be and therefore may beare as good a demonstratiō as they which if we haue not it is not through anie defect or incapacitie of the subiect but through the want of our looking into it and that ether because we doe not take the right waie or that we doe not bestow sufficient paines in the prosecution of it So that in fine although the Roman church had fallen which is impossible into those errors which the Protestants pretēde yet were it better for a man to content him self with the Good that remaines in it then to cast him self into an endlesse and fruitlesse maze of disputations with trouble to all the world ād that to no other effect then to make people vnsetled and by their vnnsetlednesse to neglect Religion But God's wisdome as you see hath prouided an Euidence for those that will take paines to seeke it 1. that the pointes in controuersie are of importance and necessarie to be knowne 2. that they cānot be so knowne by scripture as is requisite for decisions against contentious men and 3. that they may be certainely knowne by resting quiet in the bosome of the Catholike church which God of his mercie giue you and me grace to doe both liuing and dying
pretende to Christ's law and doctrine yet vnlesse they be ioyned and vnited to that coÌ„munitie which hath this gouerment and the true rule to know and continue Christ's law they cannot generaly speaking be saued HoW some may be saued out of the church But you said one thing which truble's me to wit that some be saued euen without these conditions which is against our commoÌ„ saying that there 's no saluatioÌ„ out of the church of God and therefore you know we labour to gett people reconciled and vnited to the church euen in the hower of their death which would not be so needfull if saluation could be had out of the church Vncle. Why cozen doe you not saye that euerie man hath two leggs two eyes and the like though some particular men be destitute of both we saye men cannot liue without meate and yet some haue liued manie yeares without it We saie men cannot liue in the water and yet t' is writt that the Portugalls in their discoueries found a man whose habitation was in the sea and came only to land as Crocodiles and seacalfes doe So you see we putt vniuersall denominations vpon the common and generall and that without preiudice to lawfull exceptions of rareties or prodigies You know there 's no generall rule but hath an exception and Logicians saie ars non curat de accidentibus ac fortuitis Nephew But I pray you shew me why t' is a rare accident for a man to be saued out of the church For example if we looke into the teneâ—â— of our Protestants I see not why they may not be said to hold sufficient pointes of faith both to attaine to the loue of God which is the cheefe path of saluation but also to liue an ordinarie and competeÌ„t good life amongst their neighbours which is the compleatnesse of God's law Vncle. Were not man a ciuill and sociall animall that is to liue with others I should not denye but a Protestant might more ordinarily be saued For as you said well they hold as manie tenents with the Catholike church as be in some sorte sufficient for the directioÌ„ of a priuate maÌ„'s life But God hath coÌ„manded euerie maÌ„ to haue care of his neighbour at least so farr as not to hinder him from such things as be necessarie to his saluation And manie things being necessarie to a multitude which are not needefull to euerie particular and priuat person he that hindre's the multitude from such necessarie meanes and assistance can neuer be saued himself As if some Prouince or part of a commonwealth should start vp and refuse diuers antient lawes necessarie for the good and peaceable liuing of the whole multitude some priuate men perhapps of this prouiâ—ce might so liue and beâ—iâ—â—â— them selues as to correspond and complie with the end and intention of the whole common wealth in vertue of some such other laws and status 〈◊〉 might be generally admitted and commonly receiued by them all but sure it is that the multitude and communitie of this prouince would neuer reach to this perfection wanting as we suppose seuerall laws and institutioÌ„s necessarâ—â— for them in common and in generall Now that the Catholike's tenents which the Protestants refuse and contradict are of this nature to witt that they are necessarie for the multitude t' is euident As Gouerment of the whole church and those lawes and Canons which these Gouernors vniuersally assembled doe ennact and ordaine for the good of the totall multitude and in particular praying for the deade praying to Sancts The vse of pictures Sacraments Ceremonies and the like which Christ or his Apostle's or their successors instituted for the benefit of the vniuersal communitie and multitude Amongst whom there being diuers tasts one is pleased with one thing an other with something else Wherefore the Protestants in contradicting these pointes hinder the multitude of their saluatioÌ„ supposing these things be good and necessarily ordained as we Catholikes suppose and as I will shew yoâ— presently and therefore tâ— pronounce generally of thâ— Protestants that they cannoâ— be saued though we doe noâ— absolutly exclude euerie particular man who through ignorance may for anie thinâ— I know be excused from thâ— guilt of Protestancie Nephew I am hartily glaâ— to heare you saie that somâ— may be excused for I shaâ— haue better hopes of some oâ— my deceased friends then hitherto I haue had But sinâ—â— you are fallen into this diâ—course I pray lett me vnderstand why the Protestants ceâ—sure vs of being vncharitable when we saye they shalbâ— damned vnlesse they be excused by ignorance For sure they them selues must needes saie as much of vs sithence they accuse vs of Idolatrie and other hainous crimes and consequently they must be as vncharitable as we or else they will runne into a contradition Vncle. The mixture of Protestants and Puritants in one common wealth hath and must of necessitie draw manie into errour who cannot distinguish which be Protestants which be Puritants nor whether's doctrine it is that vrged For this verie blaming of our vncharitablenesse which I thinke is as old as Protestancie it selfe sheweth that the true Protestants haue euer beene of this opinion that the disputes betwixt Catholikes and them were but matters of indifferencie I remember when I was a boy there dyed a vertuous Catholike a Kinsman of myne and at the same time dyed a morall honest Protestant and the countrie said they were both gone to heauen but the one by Rome the other by Geneua and so the Papist hath the longer iourney And the imputation which the people generally laid vpon Catholikes was that they oppressed men with too great and vnnecessarie burdens and forced men to their opinions And this caÌ„not be otherwise according to the grounds of Protestants for we haue all that they haue and more and in particular we refuse nothing that can be proued by scripture which is the maine principle of Protestanisme being the only rule and fundation of their beliefe and we damne as well as they who soeuer will not belieue what is euideÌ„t in the scripture only we sticke to what our forefathers haue taught vs according to the principles of nature common sense and the examples of all the laws and common wealths of the world vntill the contrarie be cleered against vs. Wherefore ProtestaÌ„ts being strongly vrged must ether saie in their heate that Catholikes can giue no probable or apparent answere to those places of the scripture which they bring and alledge against them which must needes be ether an ignorant or a madd man's speach or else that such questions as are disputed betwixt them and vs are of indifferencie and not of necessitie Wherefore I belieue that those who saie that they ought and may censure vs as freely as we censure them smell of Puritanisme leauing the Protestants in the maine pointe Nether is this to answere but to acknowledge that want of charitie which true Protestants obiect against vs and so