had of your persons c. except onely in your particular opinions wherein the dissent from al Protestant yea all Christian Churches in the world M. S. Now let the Protestant Churches to whom you say you submit judge whether in these words there be not a notorious untruth For wherein doe the five Ministers and their Churches differ from many Churches in England diverse in Holland and generally all within the Patent of New-England if you account these places Protestant It may be you will object Mr. Parkers Letter and some Manuscripts from New-England and the Letter from Zeland To Mr. Parker his Letter we neede say little the Letter will answer for us though Mr. Parker little thought when he wrote it to finde an A. S. in England or that his brother Bayly would have printed his Letter seemingly to anticipate the disputation of the Assembly as if hee meant to beg the question though but with shewes and shadowes 1. Mr. Parker saith not one word for a Classicall Presbyterie the maine difference in hand but for a Congregationall that he would have in some things more managed by the Presbyteries of every Congregation without putting every thing to the vote of the people of the Congregation because some confusion hath followed upon it Doth in necessaries abuse take away the use There was confusion in the Church of Corinth Or is there any mention of this in the Apologie that all businesses of the Church must be put to the vote of the Congregation 2. That in that thing only there hath been an arguing on both sides M. Parker Mr. Noyse only are mentioned in the letter to be on the one side all the other Churches on the other against Mr. Parker and Mr. Noyse And 3ly Mr. Parker doth not say he won the day but as hee answered their Arguments as he saith so he confesseth they answered his Arguments and the thing is left to consideration Yea a godly man of New-England told me that the Churches of New-England did conceive that Mr. Parker had received full satisfaction from them in that point How ever it were all amounts but to a private letter subscribed by one man yet Imprimatur saith I. C. as if much to the purpose But tooke but a little afterward to our answer to a Letter from Zeland and you shall find the judgement of New-England in Letters newly come over To any private copies or Manuscripts from New-England one Mr. Rutherfâ—â—d hath answered as too much jumping with the Apologie and opposite to Classicall Presbytery Another if it had come forth would have beene keener against A. S. then the Apologie is So that if the Apologie doe differ from that it 's onely because the Apologie more agrees with the reformed Churches of this Island And for the third it hath nothing at all for Classicall Presbyterie but some things touching the ordering of Congregationall Presbyteries and all these are but private intelligencers and mutuall advisers not determination or natioâ—all No more then I suppose Mr. Cranford or A. S. will account the strange Queries on the Apologie and Scotch Commissioners Reply to bee the sense of New-England though made by one of that Countrey As for the letter of Zeland I cannot tell how to speak all the truth not offend some whom by my will I would not in the least displease Sure this will not offend to tell A. S. that in Holland if not in Zeland are some Churches that are fully with the five Ministers unto which some of them doe relate And to speake these things to the Letter it selfe being matters of fact I hope cannot justly offend 1. That that Letter came admirably punctuall upon the very nick after the first reply to the Apologie was out 2. That a Scottish Knight as it was informed nine or ten dayes before it was known abroad that the letter was to come said What if ye receive a Letter from Zeland disliking the Apologie or to that effect 3. That there is a Scottish Church of which one Spang is a very busie agent at Trevere hard by Middleborough whence the letter came 4. That there are in it many high passages seeming to some so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifies that of the Apology saying That the five Ministers c. give more to the Civil Magistrates then the principles of some Presbyterians do The said letter giving so too little to the Magistracy that the State of England I think cannot approve it here among us Verbum sapientisat est More may be thought upon evident grounds but not spoken here 5. Most happily by almost a miraculary providence in this nick of time came two letters from New-England to countermand Mr. Parkers Letter thence and the other from Zeland The first from Mr. Winthorp Governor of New England To his reverend and very good brother Mr. Hugh Peters Minister of the Gospel these deliver in London Our late Assembly of about fourty Elders met wherein the way of our Churches was approved and the Presbytery disallowed Winthorp Governor Decemb. 10. 1643. The second from another of New-England to another Minister in Old-England about the same time wherein we have these passages We have had saith he a Synod lately in our Colledge wherein sundry things were agreed on gravely as That the votes of the people are needfull in all admissions and excommunications at least in way of consent all yeelding to act with their consent 2. That those that are fit matter for a Church though they are not alwayes able to make large and particular relations of the work and doctrine of faith yet must not live in the commission of any known sin or the neglect of any known duty 3. That consociation of Churches in way of more generall meetings yearly and more private monethly or quarterly as Consultative Synods are very comfortable and necessary for the peace and good of the Churches 4. It was generally desired that the exercitium of the Churches power might onely be in the Eldership in each particular Church unlesse their sinnes be apparent in their worke 5. That Parishes Churches in old England could not be right without a renewed Covenant at least and the refusers excluded And were not New-England so farre the Churches of New-England would soon send a third punctually to approve the Apologie unless it bee for their merer compliance with them who notwithstanding have written against them We have been the longer in answer to this clause because wee finde A. S. to bee but the Text of other mens Commentary-discourses who say That the five Ministers will oppose all the visible Christian Churches in the world If they did it were not such a wonder as for one Wickliff in one age one Husse in another and Luther in a third to oppose all the world The truth is all Churches generally partly by tyranny and partly by Security are grown so corrupt that to apologize for a through reformation seemes to reprove all
gladly come over unto them but cannot they can come over unto these but will not It is the will not the act that makes Schisme and Separation Fourthly we do not see as deep as you have laid the charge wherein the Apologists do any whit more symbolize with Convents Monasteries or Orders amongst the Papists then you and your friends You tell them that all their Churches believe one Doctrine together with you and that every one of these Churches hath one Minister as the Popish Convents a particular Abbot or Prior. Wee pray you do not all your Churches believe one Doctrine together and hath not every one of your Churches one Minister Wherein then lies the difference between you and them or wherein do they symbolize more with Convents or Monasteries then your self Nay fifthly and lastly as if you had quite forgotten your rhomb you tacitely couple your self with those Popish Convents Monasteries and Orders in one ignoble consideration from which you acquit your Brethren They only differ say you to them in this that yee have no Generall or any thing answerable thereunto to keep you in unity and conformity plainly implying that your Presbyterians have viz. their soveraign Judicatory So that if this your reason should but take place and be held valid it is your Presbyterian party not the party Apologizing that ought to suffer the non-toleration you speak of it being they not these that are the great symbolizers with St Francis and St Dominick To your twelfth Reason His 12. Reason answered we have given answer upon answer formerly as first where we considered of the examples of the Kings of Judah and shewed how little they contribute to the claim of coercive power in the Magistrate to take away Heresies Schismes Superstitions c. Secondly where we argued against such a power by severall demonstrations Thirdly where we gave an account also how Toleration is no way either to Schisme Heresie c. So that that there is not one apex or icta of this Reason remaining unanswered The Logico-Divinity of your thirteenth Reason His 13. Reason Answered consisteth in this Enthymeme If we have but one God one Christ and one Lord one Spirit one Faith one Baptisme whereby we enter into the Church and are one Body we ought to have one Communion whereby to be spiritually fed and one Discipline to be ruled by and if so then ought not the Apologists to be tolerated We answer that neither doth your inference or conclusion here at all follow from your premisses We have all you speak of one one and one and in regard of that multiplied unitie we ought as you say to have one Communion and one Discipline But first not necessarily that Communion or that Discipline which are of Classique inspiration no more then those which are either of Papall or Episcopall recommendation because though wee judge these two latter spirits more sphalmaticall erroneous and dangerous then the first yet wee cannot think that either the Pope or Bishops or both together have so ingrossed the spirit of erreour and fallibility but that they have left of that anointing more then enough to initiate all other Orders Societies and Professions of men in the world Secondly though wee ought to have one Communion and Discipline yet ought wee to be led into this unity by the hand of an Angel of light not to be frighted into it by an evill angel of fear and terrour Thirdly that duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline amongst them is no dispensation unto any party or number of them to smite their Brethren with the fist of uncharitableness or to dismount them from their ministeriall standings in the Church because they will not or rather cannot knit and joyn in the same Communion and Discipline with them Nay fourthly that very tye of duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one and the same Communion and Discipline amongst them carries this ingagement upon them all along with it to shew all love to use all manner of gentleness and long suffering towards those that are contrary minded to them either in the one or in the other since love is not only a sodering and uniting affection but further commends the person in whom it is found as one to whom God hath appeared and who hath been taught by him Therefore fifthly and lastly to make the ingagement that lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline a ground and reason why such as differ from others about these should be evill intreated suppressed kept under hatches or the like is as if a man should plead that naturall affection which a parent ows unto his children for a ground and motive why he should sharply scourge them when they are sick and weak His fourteenth Reason is of an unknown strength at least to me If I were a Magistrate His 14. Reason answered I should never the more know how to prepare to battell against the Apologists or any other godly person for the sound of this trumpet Surely of all the rest this Reason will never be accessary to the undoing of these men However let a poor man be heard in his cause The Reason then with all the help it is capable of riseth up but thus If Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species then the Churches must be different in their species also But the consequent is false since there is but one Church Ergo Apologisme is intolerable They that can gather this conclusion out of the premisses may very well hope to gather Grapes of Thorns and Figs of Thistles The consequent in this argument which the Disputer saith is false is this Churches must be different in their species If the meaning of this consequent be that there is an absolute necessity that Churches should differ specie one from another the Disputant is in the truth in saying the consequent is false Or if the meaning be that Churches ought to differ specie one from another the same verdict may still pass upon it But upon that supposition which is made in the Antecedent of this argument viz. that these Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species the consequent is not only true but necessarily true and that upon the Disputants own ground which is that all collective bodies that are governed are differenced specie by their different governments But be the Consequent or be the Antecedent or be the Consequence be any thing be nothing or be every thing in the premisses either true or false why shoâ—â—d not the Apologists be tolerated notwithstanding Be the Sunne in Aries or be it in Taurus or be it in Capricorn why should not A. S. be tolerated to write more books for the cause Presbyterian notwithstanding I heare that upon the applause and approbation of this by his party hee hath since put forth his hand to another Acts. 12.2 3. as Herod seeing
the Assembly Are they all a private particular Assembly A. S. Sundry reasons made me to suspect that ye would say more then ye say M. S. And what then Did you think by this your Reply to hush them No readier way to make them or their friends to say more then either they intended or you would willingly hear Yet confess one truth That there hath been two replies to them already yet they have printed no reply that we know of for that you mean I suppose by saying more Else God forbid but they should speak and speak in the Assembly too though one said Hee had much ado to forbear moving to have one of them to be cast out of the Assembly for propounding his Reason to the Question to which he was called by order of Parliament But for you A. S. you would make a stone speak as they say If you believe not the Poet Si natura negat facit indignatio versum yet believe the Scripture Eccles 7.7 M. R. Oppression would make a wise man mad But let me tell you now of one that is of your judgement for the Presbyterie but by far a more solid and discreet man then your self that said There was this good by the Apologie that therein the five Ministers had wrapt up themselves that they could not say more in substance oftener then was there in expressed Nor could they recede from that compliance with you they had therein professed So you see you Presbyterians may differ among your selves no wonder therefore if from the five Ministers A. S. I love you all from my heart M. S. Good Reader compare this mans book with his heart And good Writer if I do not mis-call thee judge whether in your book you act the part of a loving Physitian were your potion never so cordiall in that you administer it scalding hot though you flatter till it 's powred down the throat A. S. The will is but a blind faculty M. S. Now where is your Philosophie Is there an unreasonable faculty in the reasonable soul that hath no light but by participation This is news to considerate Philosophers that do not take things upon trust by tradition of speculative untried principles A. S. My main aim hath been Gods glory and the edification of weak brethren who may have been misted by your most learned Discourse M. S. Yet this man in his 1 Annot. pag. 4. saith It comes very short is weak and slender and no way satisfactory The man makes nothing of contradictions upon contradictions for even here also is a contradiction or two more Are the five Ministers discourse most learned and yet errour too as you said in the beginning of your Epistle And are they most learned and yet less learned then you But indeed saith one Hee makes a great noyse of learning in his book ratling his Sophistry-terms so that though hee hath failed in his Divinity Physick and Philosophie hitherto yet hee will make us know that hee is a notable Logician or he will make our ears ring with unenglished Ergoes with A genere ad speciem affirmativè with A posse ad esse non valet consequentia Non possibile est esse Page of his book 53 54. possibile est non esse totum totaliter materialiter dispositivè with his modifications assumptions c. and multitudes of such lumber to the weake brethren O said one that some body would earnestly intreat him to speak seriously whether he thinks in his conscience this to be his direct way to that end hee here professeth namely to edifie weak Brethren Alas such things to them if Englished are but gibberish and as charms A. S. Esteeming that during the rest of my pilgrimage which cannot be long having no other thing to doe I shall doe well to doe this M. S. I 'l tell you what one said to this Would God he had rather no patient then he should have no patience then the Church should be his patient seeing he hath no more skill in her griefe that he had no client then that he should be a treacherous Advocate that he would rather doe nothing then evill For it is a sad thing said he that good men neer their end should write some sorry peece to be a monument of their declining in their last dayes and of their disgrace before they are buried As a worthy man a little afore his death wrote in defence of ceremonies for which formerly he had suffered A warning to A. S. and all good men that their good works should be more at last and so to leave that character to the hypocrites as one observes to live smoothly towards his end to doe sorily and then to die suddenly A. S. HIS CONSIDERATIONS M. S. Truly called Interrogatories which A. S. puts to the five Ministers as if he were already gotten into the Chair c. A. S. His first Consideration Whether in any Ecclesiasticall or Politick Assembly of the Christian world wherein things are carried by plurality of voices it be ordinarie for any inconsiderable number thereof to joyn in a particular combination among themselves and therein to take particular resolutions M. S. We have heard of some Parliaments in Europe that the House of Peeres is so constitute that if a vote passe where somes consciences amongst them cannot yeeld to they may modestly enter in the House their dissent from it But whether this be so or not the five Ministers did not take particular resolutions and publish them in print to crosse the proceedings and Disputes of the Assembly or state a question yet unresolved by the Assembly but onely told the Kingdome de facto what they had held and practised and therfore in the Apologie speak in the past time with some very few and short touches upon what ground Wherein they declare themselves to close nearer with the Assembly were they all Presbyterian as we know the contrary then thousands ever thought they would And withall they doe professe themselves so unwedded to their former practises and so far from over-weening their present judgements See Apol. p 10. It is their secoÌ„d golden rule by which they walked that upon discovery of more light they are most willing to open their eyes upon it and let it in And therefore you A. S. have done very ill to discourage them as much as in you is from that sweetnesse of spirit that hath appeared in all their writings and carriages But our main answer to this your Consideration which makes it a grosse inconsideration if not untruth is this That the Assembly of themselves are not to conclude things by a meer plurality of votes if you dare beleeve the Ordinance of Parliament whose words are To conferre and treat amongst themselves of such matters and things touching and concerning the Liturgie Oâ—â—â—in for the calling of the Assembly Page 4.5 Discipline and Government of the Church of England or the vindication and clearing of the doctrine of the
up Josh 22.11 Negatively the outward act either of speaking such evill opinions or doing such evill facts may be restrained and yet no violence done to the conscience to act contrary to it's inward dictates and perswasion being not yet convinced they are evill This being only a suspension and intermission of the outward man from acting towards others not a coaction or subversion of the inward acts of judgement and understanding in himself And so Jewes or c. may be permitted among Christians so as they do not manifest their errors and defiance against the fundamentall truths that so they may hear and believe and be converted or how else shall they be won to the truth and the promise of God fulfilled touching their call 2. The spreading and practising of opinions that apparently tend to Libertine-licencious ungodliness ought not quietly to be permitted They cannot be suffered but with sinne and reproof from Christ to the sufferers of them Rev. 2. v. 14. to v. 21. where two Churches viz. Pergamos and Thyatirâ— are charged with sinne and reproved by Christ for having among them and suffering Balaamiues Nicolaitans and Jezabellians to vent such opinions viz. 1. That under pretence of liberty and charity wives were to be common 2. Vnder pretence of avoiding scandals and perils it was lawfull for Christians to be present at the the sacred things Idolatries and joyiall banquettings of Pagans Vâ—de Port. in 2 Revel as things indifferent These in the Churches ought to have been excommunicated if refractory out of the Churches These not of any Church if they will not be convinced by conference with the Churches ought to be restrained from their evill practises by the Magistrate according to the examples of the pious Kings reforming abuses upon the ground of Moses penning of politiqâ—e laws to punish them that could not be accounted meet members of a Church for their lewd lives 3. For those opinions that are neither against fundamentals nor tend to licenciousness but stâ—ive to beat out truths thereby to creep closer to the rule to walk more evenly in the path both of Doctrine and Discipline and will in both by a strict bond amongst themselves walk as exactly as by any power Ecclesiastical without them set above them a their own wilâ— shall be in stead of others lawes I say such opinions are not to be restrained either from all divulging or practising that wee can finde by any Scripture We wave the question now Which is the only true form of Discipline and put the case in generall What opinions and practices that are conscienciously taken up ought to be left unrestrained To which our answer is that this sort here are they or else how shall there be a trying all things a trying of the spirits a discovery of new light and present truths prophesied to be revealed in their severall periods of times If any be contrary-minded we shall be glad to hear their grounds till they produce those and make them clear to the Churches wee ask our due a quiet permission to injoy that liberty which Christ hath bought and the Gospel brought and not to be jeered by any A. S. as here who tells the five Ministers that to live quietly without troubling the State they may have it appearingly unsought Let the world judge whether here be not a saucy jeer both in matter and form of speech I would A. S. had made use of that toleration and then he had not so intolerably troubled a Kingdome Or else if he had no stomack at first to be quiet if for some days he had but had somewhat appearingly allowed him to bite upon somewhat appearingly to quench his thirst he would have had a stomack rather to eat and drink then bite and jeere He is so passionate that hee doth not remember what he says in one page so as it may be reconciled to another Here he saith the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God you may perceive his meaning by reading his Interrogatory yet in his Annotation upon the inscript of the Apologie pag. 5. He supposeth that the Parliament should arrogate if it should take upon it any directive power in matters of Religion If he hath any Scholastick quillet to reconcile this within himself it is more then the common people and weak brethren he writes to know of M. S. Note that A. S. bath one Consideration more But were it not that it it did answer it self I should have been too weary of his former inconsiderate considerations to have staid here being eager to come to his book 1. He saith that they ayme at separation he meanes the five Ministers though they disclaime it in their Apologie unlesse to separate as our brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction should tolerate some small pretended defects they are but pretended yet he saith not approved by those from whom they desire to separate 2. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme defects yet those defects saith he are but pretended to be in it 3. Hee thinkes that the five Ministers should doe better to stay in the Church to reforme abuses then by separation to let the Church perish in abuses Now he supposeth destroying abuses and would have the five Ministers stay to helpe reforme yet he is angry with their Apologie that doth but sigh forth an intimation of neede of reformation And so angry that he would as ye heard in his second consideration it s so long since that he hath forgotten it have the five Ministers quit the Assembly A. S. his Annotations upon the inscription of the Apologists Narration M.S. If I thought A.S. had any skill in Physick I would aske him whether by Annotations he meanes as the Physitians speake Annotationes incompressas becticarum febrium indicia violent annotations are sigâ—es of an hectick feaver in his vitall parts A. S. All Apologies suppose some accusation which here appeares none M. S. Not to meddle with your Engâ—ish which is scarse grammaticall you are intreated to speake true Doth not the Apologie begin and end with sad complaints Remember our answer to your fourth Consideration A. S. If intended for an Answer to that which hath been written against your opinions it comes very short weake and slender M. S. Why then would you fight with a fly The Mouse told the Elephant that he would never get honour in killing a silly Mouse Why did you bestow so much Oratorie and Logicke to clap it and fisticuffe it A. S. Neither is it a meere Apologeticall Narration but also a grievous accusation against all our Churches as destitute of the power of godlinesse M. S. This indeede is a false accusation as we have cleered it in our Answer to your fiâ—t Consideration A. S. The Apologie saith humbly submitted c. So humbly submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament as if they submit not themselves to your
but condemn them He that intends to make hoops of a clean streight-bodied tree must in the working of it alter the comely shape and streightnesse of it wherein it grew and bend and crook and bow quite round all that he imployeth of it to such a purpose whereas he whose Art and intent is to make Javelins Lances Pikes or the like of such a tree hath no occasion to alter the native shape or figure of it in point of streightnesse because Nature it self had fitted it to his hand in this respect for such uses and purposes as these nay this man should do against himselfe if he should alter them In like manner they who seeke themselves in wayes and ends which contradict the lawfull peace and comforts of other men if withall they desire to have their proceedings countenanced and attested by the Scripture for just and good they must of necessity suborn them and make them speak what the holy Ghost never meant they should speak whereas those men who value not regard not themselves but in their order and due subordination and are willing to gird themselves and serve til God and men have first eaten and can be content with the reversions and broken meat of their table be they never so mean these men I say need not solicit or importune the Scriptures for their testimony or compliance with them in their way because their native inspiration from God leads them willingly yea rejoycingly yea triumphantly hereunto Such men should but prevaricate with themselves and their own ends if they should go about to make one haire of the head of the Scripture either black or white which the holy Ghost hath not made such to their hand Therefore whiles some men shall seeke to adorn their own names and reputations with the plunder and spoyls of other mens and lay the foundations of their owne greatnesse in the ruines of the lawfull comforts and peace of others there is no hope of a generall or through accommodation in matters of religion It is impossible that such men should comport with the truth in their way and consequently with those who embrace the truth Nor will any method of violence as either imprisoning fining crushing suppressing banishing cutting off by death or the like be able to advance that unity and accord which we al lust after though some in Gods way others in their own the very ghosts and shadows and memories of those that shal suffer in any of these kinds for conscience towards God will be as so many spirits of divisions dissentions and distractions amongst those that will chuse no other Arbitrators to comprimize their differences but the Sword and Blood Another signe of those Halcyon days approaching so much desired by us all wherin all gusts and winds storms of contrary doctrines opinions and Sects in religion shal be turned into a sweet calm of an universal unity and accord is this when Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers shall be no more turned into Councels Synods and secular Armes I mean when men shall be freely permitted without feare or danger of molestation to consult with the Apostles Prophets c. of what religion it were best for them to be without having their judgements emancipated forestalled and over-awed by the definitive and compulsory determinations and allowances of other men The reason hereof is because the writings of the Apostles Prophets Evangelists with the Ministery of faithfull Pastors and Teachers are sanctified and set apart by God for this very end and purpose namely the perfecting the Saints Ephes 4 13. c. till they all come into the unity of the Faith c. Therefore whilst Councels Synods c. shall intrude or step in as new Apostles Prophets and Evangelists of another order between those Apostles Prophets and Evangelists and those Pastors and Teachers which Christ hath given for the setling of an universall peace and unity throughout all the Churches of his Saints in due time to interrupt intercept them in their work and way so that they can never have the judgments consciences of men in their native ingenuity and freedome to work upon but still upon the disadvantage of Synodical impressions and forestallments partly with fear partly with favour partly with hope and conceit of the truth there is little hope of seeing the vision of joy and glory in the world I mean the Saints and Servants of Jesus Christ universally kissing and embracing one another in the armes of unity truth and peace It is in vain to wash in Abanah or Pharphar when onely the waters of Jordan are sanctified for the cure To commit adultery is not the way to increase though flesh and blood should determine for it They shall eate saith God and not have enough they shall commit adultery and not increase because they have left off to take heed unto the Lord that is because they had substituted their own wisdome and inventions in stead of his for bringing their desires and ends to passe Hos 4.10 Thirdly and lastly when the generality of men professing godliness and religion shall be content to furnish themselves with religion I mean with knowledge in religion by smaller parcels as the stock of their own judgements and understanding shall be able from time to time to accommodate thâ—m and shall make scruple of taking it up by whole sale from Synods Councels and Books only for ease and cheapness sake this also is as the putting forth of the Fig-tree which shewes the Summer of an universall accord amongst the Saints to be at hand The reason is because God hath promised and will perform accordingly that if men shall apply their heart to understanding and shall cry after knowledge and seek her as silver and search for her as for hid treasure they shall thâ—n understand the feare of the Lord and find the knowledge of God Prov. 2.2 3 4. But there is no promise made that they who to favour themselves and to gratifie the flesh and to save the labour of seeking and searching after knowledge shall take in the dictates and resolutions of men and call them knowledge and understanding without any more adoe shall either find the fear of the Lord or true knowledge of God Now till men shall generally find the fear of the Lord and the true knowledge of God which is not like to be out of that way which the promise of God mentioned hath sanctified thereunto there will be little hope of the generall meeting of men in the bond of peace as was formerly argued in another of these signes Fourthly and lastly when Christian States and men of soundest judgment greatest learning parts and abilities therein shal give free liberty to men look'd upon as opposite in judgment to the truth to publish and openly declare the grounds reasons of their judgments in each particular and not compell them either to keep them burning or glowing in their own breasts or else to propagate
born in hand by those with whose eys hee sees in such cases are schismaticall erroneous and contrary unto God may very possibly be the ways of God and truths of God such mens judgements of them notwithstanding For first the judgements of these men are not Apostolicall or infallible A. S. himself who makes his demands for Presbyterian soveraignty as high as another yet dares not lay claim to this crown Therefore it 's possible for them to be in a misprision about some Question or controversall point in Religion Secondly frequent experience shews that a minor part yea a party for number inconsiderable of godly persons in a Church or State may have the minde of God and of Christ among them in some particulars before the generality or major part of this Church comes to be inlightened or interessed in it For a proofe whereof ad hominem we need go no further then to that party of godly persons in the Land who stood up in Queen Elizabeths King James his days for Presbyteriall Government when as the far greater part both of Magistrates and Ministers in the Kingdome were in their judgements opposite hereunto and wholly Episcopall So that had that Queen or King or any Parliament under them gone about to suppress that party which yet was then look'd upon as schismaticall factious and erroneous they had according to A.S. his judgement touching the judgement of those men fought against God and sought to pluck up that which he hath planted Yea thirdly and lastly it seldome or never falls out that any truth which hath for a long time been under hatches and unknown to the genâ—rality of Ministers and other learned men in a Church or State hath been at the first and on the sudden discovered by God either unto the generality or major part of them but unto some few only yea and sometimes but unto one for a season by and from whom he is pleased to propagate the light and knowledge of it unto more afterwards If then the Magistrate should rise up to suppress this truth or those that hold it forth unto the world because it hath few friends and many enemies amongst the Masters in his Israel and is generally look'd upon as a schismaticall and erroneous opinion should he not in Gamaliel's sense fight against God The housholder in the Parable forbad the plucking up of the Tares out of his field for fear of plucking up the Wheat with them Matth. 13.29 7. That power which was never attributed to the civill Magistrate Sect. 34. by any Christians but only by those that had very good assurance that it should be used for them and on their side is not like to be a power appertaining to them by divine right or conferr'd upon them by God The reason of this Proposition is because it is no wayes credible that within the compass of so many ages as are by-gone no one man of that conscientious generation of Saints which hath been wont so frequently to deny it self even unto death should acknowledge such a power in the civill Magistrate as did by divine right belong unto him only because such an acknowledgement was like to make against himself Therefore I assume But that coercive power in matters of Religion for the suppressing of errours schismes heresies c. was never attributed to the civill Magistrate by any Christian See for the further proof of the minor Proposition Mr Io. Robinsons Essayes p. 49.50 c. but only by those that were very confident that it would be used for their turns and to effect their desires Ergo A. S. himself is wary and tender above measure in conferring it upon him distinguishing once and again and the third time also upon it as wee heard befâ—re he dares let him have it yea and in the close doth as much in effect as tell him that except hee be Presbyterian right down and will accommodate him and his party with it he ought not to claim it 8. That power which in the exercise of it directly tends to prevent Sect. 35. hinder or suppress the growth and increase of the light of the knowledge of God and Jesus Christ in a Church or State and the Reformation of such things whether in Doctrine or Discipline as are unwarrantable therein is not questionless of any Divine right or Institution If A. S. deny this Proposition at the perill of his modesty and reputation be it So then I assume But such a power in the civill Magistrate as we speak of directly tends to all the mischief and inconvenience mentioned Ergo The evidence of the assumption is this when men are obnoxious to the stroke of the civill power and in danger of suffering deeply from the Magistrate for any thing that they shall hold or practise in Religion contrary unto him it must needs be a great tentation and discouragement upon them from searching and Inquiring into the Scriptures after a more exact knowledge of the good and holy and perfect will of God in things because in case hee should discover any thing contrary to what the Magistrate professeth hee must run the hazard either of with-holding the truth hee so discovers in unrighteousness and so of having both God and his own conscience his enemy or else of having his bones broken by the iron rod of the civill Magistrate for mâ—king profession of any thing contrary to that which he professeth 9. That power which in the use of it plainly and palpably tends to the gratification of Satan Sect. 36. carnall and prophane men is not certainly derived from God To prove this Proposition would be but the lighting up of a torch to see the Sun I assume But that power in matters of Religion to crush schismes heresies c. which is by A. S. and many others pinn'd upon the Magistrates sleeve is a power of this tendencie and importance in the use of it Ergo. This latter Proposition shines clear enough with this light First a very great part if not far the greatest of those that are like to suffer by it are men of good conscience and truly fearing God This is manifest in the Apologists and men of their judgement whom A. S. himself over and over though condemning himself toties quoties acknowledgeth for very pious and godly men Nor is it like that ordinarily men of loose or no conscience should delight to swim against the streams either of greatness or plurality in matters of Religion Now then it cannot but be conceived to be matter of solemn gratification to Satan who is a murtherer â—nd blood enemy to the Saints to see them disgraced crushed troden and trampled upon especially by those whom God hath appointed to be their protectours and most of all that this grievous measure should be measured out unto them for the goodness of their consciences towards God Secondly It is the impatient and importune desire of all ignorant loose luke-warm and carnall professors to have
the Apologists p. 4. that you saw them no wayes minded to submit themselves in these matters of conscience to the desires of the Parliament I verily beleeve that did their judgements depend upon their wills as it seems yours doe they would have been as freely willing to have submitted in all things unto the desires of the Paâ—liament as you are But 6. If our wills be weak Sect. 8. and thereby are hindred from seeing that goodly vision of Presbyterian Government in the practice of the Jewish Church which you see what doe you contribute or afford us towards the healing and strengthening of them Nay doe you not rather occasion that which is weak in this kind to be quite turned out of the way For when you tell us as you doe pag. 13. 1. that the adaequate end of your Presbyteriall government is the externall peace of the Church And 2. that the power thereof consists first in the creation suspension and deposition of Church-officers secondly in determining matters of Doctrine thirdly in making Ecclesiasticall lawes concerning things indifferent c. all which you tell us on a heap pag. 42. you both make us very loth and unwilling to find your government there and withall very confident that there it is not to be found For First Sect. 9. was the adaequate end of the government of that Church the externall peace of the Church Had it nothing in designe for the spirituall good for the edification of the members of it in knowledge faith and holinesse Was the power of the high Priest given him only to keep the Church in externall peace I thought that to provide for the externall peace of the Church had rather appertained to the civill Magistrate and government then to the Ecclesiastick and it is the Apostle himself that thus thoughteth me 1 Tim. 2.2 where he enjoyneth that supplications prayers c. be made for Kings and all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty Secondly neither doe I find in the practise of that Church any power given to the combined rulers and governours thereof for the creation suspension deposition of Church-officers I read of the deposition of a Church-officer and no mean one neither by the Civill Magistrate 1. King 2.27 So Solomon cast out Abiathar from being Priest unto the Lord c. but of any such deposition by the combined rulers of that Church I remember not that I have read But 3. As for any power of determining matters of Doctrine Sect. 10. this is further out of my ken in the practice of that Church then any thing else I know not well what A. S. means by his phrase of Determining matters of Doctrine but in my notion and in the Grammaticall and proper sense of the word Determine the claim of such a power riseth up as a high partition-wall between me and his Government If by a power of determining matters of doctrine he meanes nothing else but a liberty or ability of discussing and arguing such matters and of recommending the issues and results of such discussions unto the Churches as consonant in their judgements to the truth with a proposall of their desires unto the Churches to consider well of them and to embrace them if they can so judge and conceive of them I have nothing to oppose against this power But if by his power to determine matters of Religion he means a power of concluding or defining what men shall be bound in conscience to receive and beleeve for truth and shal be look'd upon as sinning in case they doe it not whether they see sufficient ground for what is so concluded and obtruded upon them or not which I partly beleeve to be A. S. his sense I am sure is the proper sense of the word such a power is and I think ever will bee the first-born of the abhorrings of my soul I confesse I cannot be over-confident that A.S. intends the residence of such a power as this in his Presbyterian Assemblies partly because he speakes somewhat like a man in this behalfe elsewhere supposing it to be safe even for a few men to dissent from all the world Paget Defence of Church government pag. 29. in case they have very strong reasons for their dissent pag. 22. and requires no subjection in particular Congregations unto the judgment of Senats or Assemblies but according to Gods word pag. 28. I trust he means so apprehended by the congregation without this there is no subjection according to Gods word And again pag. 68. acknowledgeth it as an undoubted maxime that the church hath no absolute power in her judgments c. with many savoury expressions in this kind partly also because I find this indulgence generally subscribed with Presbyterian pens That the authority which Classes and Synods exercise is not absolute nor their Decrees held to be infallible but to be examined by the word of God and not to be received further then they do agree bâ—rewith And yet on the other hand I confesse that I cannot conceive or comprehend how A.S. his government can hold up her head like her selfe if this Iron-mace be taken out of her hand For my part if this one Article of a liberty to wave Presbyteriall Injunctions and Decisions in case of a non liquet from the word of God to him to whom they are tendered will bee but assented unto and candidly kept and performed it would be the best Mediator I know to reconcile my thoughts and judgement to it 4. Nor can I in the practice of the Jewish Church Sect. 13. find either vola or vestigium of a power granted unto the Rulers thereof to make Ecclesiasticall laws concerning things indifferent I rather find a prohibition served upon them for making any such laws Ye shall put nothing unto the word which I command you nor shall you take ought therefrom c. Deut. 4.2 So again Chap. 12.32 If A. S. can but produce one example of any such Law or Constitution made by them he shall be a good benefactor to the penury of my notions and in consideration thereof I will bestow upon him a dashing out of this peece of his charge 5. And lastly Sect. 12. in the practice of the Jewish Church the Prelaticall Schoole sees a vision or platforme of her government also And A.S. by your leave the High-Priest as well in his Authoritie as in his robes and holy accoutrements did farre more plausibly sympathize with Metropoliticall state and greatnesse then with Presbyteriall For my part I am not able to discern in all the practice of the Jewish Church from the one end of it unto the other any peece straine or veine of such a patterne as A. S. speaks of Surely the vision is so condition'd as not to be seen but upon Presbyterian ground The man did wisely in granting that he had no formall or expresse patterne for his government either
that his butchery upon James pleased the people put forth his hand to take Peter also But is there nothing more in the Reason then this Truly if A. S. hides the treasure of his minde so deep another time digge for it who will for mee For this once I have taken pains to finde it and have found somewhat which I conceive is like to it if not Identically it The man I take it would be here conceived to reason after this manner If the Church of Christ ought to be ruled or governed only with one species or kinde of government then ought not they to be suffered who go about to pluralize this government or to set up a kind of government in the Church specifically differing from the government more generally practised and established Sed verum prius Ergo posterius and consequently the Apologists being men that would do such a thing as this are not to be tolerated If this be the argument this is the Answer First the consequence is lame and halts right down because though the Church of Christ ought to be governed with one and the same kinde of government throughout the world yet it no wayes follows from hence that therefore that government which is more generally established and practised in the world should be that specificall government whereby it ought to be governed If this consequence were good it would highly befriend the government Pontifician but dissolve and destroy the government Presbyterian because the Pontifician government is or at least not long since was far more oecumenicall and comprehensive then the Presbyterian either is or is like to be Therefore in framing this consequence the man hath given sentence against himself and his own beloved opinion touching Church-Discipline and hath put a sword into the Popes hand to smite as well the Consistorian as the Congregationall Government And Secondly suppose the government more generally practised in the world be that very kinde of government whereby the Churches of Christ ought to be governed yet except this government both as touching the lawfulness and necessity of it be sufficiently cleered to the judgement and consciences of those from whom submission to it is required an honour whereunto A. S. his government hath not yet been preferred by all his great friends they ought not to be scourged with â—is Scorpions if they demurre a while about their submission thereunto and in the mean season desire to live under such a government wherein they have double and treble satisfaction both in point of lawfulness and necessity above the other Thirdly and lastly though unity and uniformity in government be very fitting and necessary throughout the Churches of Christ yet that the servants of Christ should fall foul one upon another and the greater eat up the less for this uniformity sake is no wayes necessary especially considering that God as hath been formerly shewed hath provided other means far more gracious honourable and proper for the bringing of the blessedness of this uniformity upon his Churches in due time So that if there be any thing in this Reason it is altogether with and not at all against the Apologists To your fifteenth His 15. Reason answered wee answer first be it supposed which yet wee shall presently oppose that neither Christ nor his Apostles ever granted any toleration to divers Sects and Governments in the Church yet did he or they ever grant a power to a major part of Professours in a Kingdom or Nation to grind the faces of their Brethren partakers of like precious faith and holiness with them either because they could not in all points jump with them in their judgements or because they endeavoured to keep a good conscience toward God for following the ducture and guidance of their present light If you will take without asking that which neither Christ nor his Apostles ever granted you you may very well bear it at the hands of your Brethren if they humbly sue and intreat for what they never granted especially considering that that which you take is imperious and high tending to the annoyance and trouble of many whereas that which they sue for is moderate and low only a peaceable standing amongst you that they may be able to do good unto many Secondly if neither Christ nor his Apostles as you say ever granted any toleration to divers Sects and Governments in his Church how come you and your Government to be tolerated your Government being specifically diversified from that of the Papacy as if before observed which is more generall and extensive then yours If you have not a toleration for your government either from Christ or his Apostles we are doubtfull from whom or whence you have it Thirdly doe you not by this reason build up the walls of Babylon and strengthen the Papists in their bloody errour against the reformed Churches upon which they looke as schismaticall from their Mother and in that respect think them no wayes fit to be tolerated but to be suppressed both in their doctrine and government yea and in case they will not be reduced to the principles of Rome to be wholly extirpated and rooted out of the world What can be spoken more to the heart of such apprehensions and counsels and resolutions as these then that neither Christ nor his Apostles ever granted any toleration to divers Sects and Governments in the Church Fourthly whereas you say that they granted no toleration to divers Sects do you not imply that they did grant a toleration to some one Sect at least if not to more And how know you whether the Sect of Apologisme in your improperating stile be not that Sect or one of those Sects to which Christ and his Apostles it seems granted a toleration Is it not I appeale to your judgement and conscience as like to be this as any other Fifthly we willingly grant your conclusion in this Reason sensusano that there is no reason why the Apologists should sue for a toleration no nor yet properly why they should be tolerated toleration in propriety of signification as was formerly noted being rei malae appliable onely to that which iâ— evill but rather why they should be countenanced and encouraged Therefore if you think that they shall sin in suing for a toleration you shall doe well to prevent that sin in them and perhaps shall withall prevent a greater of your owne by declaring them persons worthy not of a toleration but of encouragement or at least by procuring them a toleration that they may not be put upon the tentation of suing for it But sixthly and lastly to the main frame of your Reason what doe you think of Sinite utrunque crescere Let both grow together untill the Harvest Matth. 13.30 Is not here the toleration granted which you deny to be granted Non lac lacti nec ovum ovo similius If it bee not this toleration certainly it is somewhat as like to it as like may be
You know who the Housholder is that gave this order laid this restraint upon his servants otherwise the 37. verse will informe you And who doe you think should be meant by the tares You will not say the good sons of the Church at least so acknowledged by their Mother You cannot say with reason the loose vicious c. morally disordered sons of the Church because these were sown in the field before the Housholder sew that good seed therein spoken of v. 24. and 38. whereas the tares which must be let grow to harvest are expresly said to have been sown after v. 25. And besides such wicked and vicious persons as these at least as the danger and degree of their wickednesse may be ought to be gathered out of the State and then they cannot grow in the field till harvest by the hand of the civill Magistrate Therefore thirdly and lastly you must by the tares of necessity understand such in the Church as you call Sectaries Schismaticks Heretickes such as corrupt the purity of the doctrine of the Gospel by erroneous and false opinions or at least are look'd upon by the greater part of the respective Churches of Christ as such Which yet appears further by the reason which the Housholder renders unto his servants why he would not have them pluck'd up but grow untill the harvest lest saith he whilest yee goe about to gather the tares yee pluck up the wheat also There is no danger of hurting or plucking up the wheat i. the children of the Kingdome v. 38. by punishing civill or morall misdemeanours of men but if Magistrates or others ' shall be busie about plucking up Sectaries Heretiques c. they will be in continuall danger of plucking up the wheat First because many truly pious and conscientious men children of the Kingdome may soon be drawne in to some unwarrantable Sect and opinion And secondly such opinions as are sentenced by the generality or major part of a Church as erroneous or hereticall and so expose those that hold them to the reprochfull names of Sectaries Schismatiques Heretiques very often fall out to be the sacred truths of God and the persons holding them forth unto the world the best and faithfullest of his servants His 16. Reason answered For your sixteenth reason it concerneth others more then the Apologists to answer the frame of it being an indignabund relation whether true or no caveat lector of what hard measure the New-Englanders offered to some that desired to sit downe amongst them because they differed a little from them in point of discipline The men here charged are of age to speak for themselves and besides want no abilities otherwise I make no question but if they had but the correcting of A. S. his Relation they would be able to make more reason and equity of it then without some correction or other I am able to doe But to leave our brethren in New-England to their own Apologie I would fain know of A. S. what he means to do with his story or how he intends to bring it under contribution to his cause For first he doth not onely not approve of those proceedings which he relateth but is very passionate and intemperate in the very relation Delicti fies idem reprehensor Author Is the man so full of the spirit of reprehension against such practises and yet so full of the spirit of imitation also Or what Is his desire so great to appropriate or ingrosse the power and practice of persecuting for difference in religion to himselfe and his own party that he is not able patiently to beare the sight of either in others If your brethren in New-England stumbled at the stone you speak of persecuted as you say those that were approved by themselves both for their life and doctrine meerly because they differed a little from them in point of discipline you have a faire warning take heed that you doe not stumble at the same stone also They it's like justified themselves in themselves in those proceedings though they did not so in the sight of God but if you having condemned them in what they did shall neverthelesse run the same course you wil be both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 both self-condemned and God-condemned also and so have no cloak nor shelter for your sin But you think it no wayes reasonable that the Apologists being of the same profession as you speak should be suiters for a toleration in Old-England We answer first if you speak with reference to those proceedings immediatly before reported by you you are more of the same profession with them then your brethren the Apologists These doe not professe persecution meerly for a little difference in point of Discipline the world knowes who they are that do little lesse Secondly what though men of the same profession with them miscarried for want of such light as should have directed them in a better way must this be a band of conscience upon them to bow down their backes without any more adoe and to suffer Presbyterian greatnesse to go over them as the stones in the street Nay thirdly they have the more reason and necessitie in regard of such a miscarriage of their brethren to sue for a toleration here because by that miscarriage of theirs they are awakened to expect and feare yet far harder measure from you and your partie if they doe not bestirre themselves by some means or other to prevent it He that feeles the smart of rods to be grievous hath the more reason not the lesse to take heed of being beaten with Scorpions Fourthly and lastly why should you any wayes be against your brethren suing for a toleration when as there lies a necessity upon you to grant it or consent to it unlesse you mean to steere that New-England course which you have with so high a hand of indignation contested with in this very reason Except haply you have this ingenuous reach in it for your reputations that you would honest is precibus occurrere prevent all honest and reasonable requests with the early forwardnesse of your bountie If I could reasonably thinke this to bee your designe I would seriously perswade with the Apologists to wave their suit for a toleration and so to gratifie you with an honourable opportunitie of doing good before you were provoked by any mans suit or motion to it But men that are subject to feares are seldome sons of bounty The bottome it seems of all that A. S. hath pleaded throughout his Discourse against the Toleration of Apologisme is a solemne fear that possesseth him of being sent he and all his partie into some Isle of Dogs if the congregationall men bad but the upper hand over them Omnetimidum natura querulum But I can hardly beleeve that the man is really afraid of what he here pretendeth in which case he were rather to be pitied then roundly dealt with first because himselfe confesseth
that some of his brethren hold that all Sects and opinions are to be tolerated p. 6. So that in case these men should have the upper hand he is assured of a partie at least among them to secure him and his in that kind Secondly he confesseth again and again that his brethren are very pious and holy men and therefore certainly will not be so dogged as to send him and his into any Isle of Dogs Thirdly a poore toleration is as far from a superioritie of power as rags are from the robe or the dunghill from the throne Fourthly I doe not think that he knowes any such Isle as he speaks of whereinto he fears to be sent by the men of his indignation Fifthly and lastly if he should be sent into some Isle of Dogs the soyle and climate might probably agree well with him he hath learned it seems to bark and bite too against his sending thither To conclude for this Reason Whereas feare indeed ordinarily makes men cruell it is much to be feared A. S. onely pretends feare that so he may have a colour to be cruell His 17. Reason answered To his seventeenth Reason we answer First that the Scripture doth not forbid all nor any such Toleration as the Apologists desire This was sufficiently shewed before in our answer to the fifteenth Reason His proofe from Revel 2.20 holds no intelligence at all with his purpose yea it makes sore against himselfe and his Synedrion For first by the toleration or suffering of Jezabel which is there charged as a sinfull neglect upon the Church of Thyatira is not meant a Civill or State-toleration but an Ecclesiastick or Church-toleration This Church suffered false Doctrines to be taught in her very bosome and her members to bee corrupted and endangered thereby from day to day without laying it to heart being a matter of that sad consequence and without calling those to an account that were the sowers of such tares broachers spreaders of such opinions yea without using any means to have the truth soundly taught in opposition to such Doctrines Both Pastour and people it seems slept together whilst the envious man by his Agent and Factress Jezabel sowed these tares in their field Such a toleration as this wee formerly shewed to be sinfull and the Apologists are as much against it as you so far are they from desiring it or suing for it They desire a Toleration for themselves and their Churches in the Civill state not that the errours which spring up in their Churches should be suffered to fret like gangrens without being opposed by them or be protected by the State Secondly whereas that particular Church alone is charged by Christ with this toleration or sufferance of Jezabel and not any more Churches whether neighbours or not neighbours to her nor any combined Eldership or state Ecclesiasticall made of the consociation of the seven Churches much less any state civill evident it is that the care and power of redressing emerging enormities or evils in a Church in every kinde is committed by Christ to every particular Church respectively within it self And so they that trouble the Church must as you say be cut off But by whom not by the civill Magistrate if the trouble be spirituall nor by the combined Eldership but by the particular Church it self which is troubled by them in case there be no remedy otherwise Secondly when you say that there must be no such speeches among us as I am of Paul I am of Apollos c. nor that some are Calvinians some Independenters some Brownists c. And again that we must all be Christs wee must all think and speak the same thing otherwise men are carnall c. with some other good words to like purpose we joyn heart and hand with you in all these things and are ready to contribute the best of our endeavours unto yours if yee will suffer us to make the Tabernacle of God amongst us according to this pattern which you shew unto us Such expressions I am of Paul I of Apollos c. together with the names of Calvinians Independents Brownists c. are as untuncable in our eares as in yours c. But First every man that saith I am of Paul or I am of Apollos is not to be taught by Thorns and Briars as Gedeon taught the men of Succoth to speak better by fining imprisoning unchurching or the like but by soundness of conviction and wholesomness of instruction from the Word of God The Germanâ— have a saying That etiam in lâ—trone puniendo potest peccari A man may sin in punishing him that most of all deserves it It is not enough for us to correspond with God in his ends but we must keep as close to him in his meanes also Secondly whereas you say we must all be Christs surely there is none of those Sects you speak of but are willing to joyn with you in being his and in being called by his Name rather then by any other We fear these unhappie sounds of Independents Brownists Anabaptists c. are more frequently made of your breath then of the breath of any other sort or sect of men amongst us Thirdly whereas you adde Neither hath the Church of God a custome to be contentious the Apostle indeed saith 1 Cor. 11.16 that the Churches of God have no such custome but he doth not say that these Churches of God had any custome to erect a Presbyterian throne or a combined eldership amongst them to keep them from contentions Fourthly whereas you tell us that neither permitteth the Apostle Schismes we tell you that we have already told you and that once and again both in what sense he permitteth them and in what not and have shewed you our concurrence with him in both Fifthly and lastly in that you tell us that we must not quit our mutuall meetings as others do and as must you say be done in a publique Toleration we neither well understand the sense of your words much less any purport in them to your pupose We do not know what quitting of meetings there is like to be more under a publique toleration then is for the present His 18. Reason Answered Your eighteenth Reason is so Atheologicall and unworthy your cause that the very naming of it might be Answer sufficient A toleration say you cannot but expose your Churches unto the calumnies of Papists who evermore object unto Protestants the innumerable number of these Sects whereas they pretend to be nothing but one Church Will you redeem your selfe out of the hand of Popish calumnies by symbolizing with them will you turne Turk that you may not suffer Turkish insolencies and thraldome Surely you forget your argument insisted upon in your eleventh Reason There you make symbolizing with Papists a reason against your Brethren and their Opinions why they should not be tolerated and here you make a defect or want in them of symbolizing with them a reason
likewise why they should not be tolerated It seems contradictions inconsistences impertinences unintelligibilities sense nonsense any thing nothing will serve to make reasons against the poor Independenters as you call them why they must not be tolerated Was not the consideration of your own pag. 14. that the Devill evermore assaults more the true Church the true Doctrine and true Discipline then the corrupted Church her corrupted Doctrine or Discipline a far better sanctuary for your Churches against those Popish calumnies you speak of then a correspondence with them to keep you in unity and conformity But this Reason we have answered formerly His 19. reason answered Your nineteenth Reason is very concise In this you only say that of such a Toleration follows all you formerly deduced out of Independencie And so it may without putting the world to much damage or sorrow When we cast up your deductions of inconveniencies out of Independency wee found them counterballanced to the height with the exits from Presbyterie If you poyse your wallet well you will the end that hangs at your back the heavier But for answer to this Reason I refer the Reader to the former Chapter His 20. reason answered His twentieth Reason is somewhat of a differing strain from the rest The ground and bottome of it seems to be a desire of a plausible insinuation with the Assembly under a pretence of jealousie over them lest they should suffer in point of honour in case his Brethren should obtain a Toleration But first good A. S. why must it needs be thought in case it should be granted unto them that it was extorted by force of Reason or that all the Assembly were not able to answer your Brethren This suggestion smels of worse blood about the heart then all the Reasons hitherto Fearing it seems that all ingagements upon the Assembly in point of conscience to deny the Apologists a Toleration might fail and prove ineffectuall that way hee seeks here to ingage them in point of honour by way of reserve telling them in effect that howsoever their consciences might favour the Independenters in point of Toleration yet their credits and reputations would suffer by it Yet let the suggestion be but a little look'd into and it will be found to reflect no great matter of grace or commendation upon the Assembly it self For if no favour or courtesie can be thought to come from them but that which is extorted by reason and the deniall whereof they cannot answer it is a sign that they are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. easie to be intreated full of mercy and good fruits which yet the Holy Ghost makes the standing characters of that wisdome which is from above James 3.17 Whereas hee adds that their opinion and demands are against all reason and that sundry of them could not deny as much and had nothing to say but that it was Gods Ordinance Wee answer first that what A. S. his standart is whereby he measures Reason we are not so well acquainted with him as to know but according to ours this assertion of his opens seven times wider against all reason then either the opinion or demands of his Antagonists First for their opinion we believe that somewhat more then non-sense or irrationalities hath been argued by themselves in the Assembly for it Is it like that very learned men and of abilities to dispute their opinion in any Assembly in Europe which are A. S. own letters of recommendation on their behalf should rise up to defend an opinion that is contrary to all reason And somewhat like unto reason at least so called amongst our vulgar apprehensions hath been said for it in the preceding part of this Discourse And secondly for their Demands though A. S. doth not inform us what they are or wherein that fiery contestation against all reason which he findes in them consists yet we suppose he means their suing for a Toleration that high misdemeanor for which he hath judged them now these ten times Was it or is it or would it be against all reason for the poor Protestant Churches in France to sue for a Toleration in the state if it were not granted unto them without suing Or is it not much more agreeable to reason that Protestant Churches should be tolerated in a Protestant State then in a State Pontificiall especially in such a Protestant State of which they have so eminently deserved as the Apologists and their Churches and men of their judgement have done of this as was briefly touched in the beginning of this Chapter Or is it against all reason that those persons in the Low-countreys between whose judgements there is that known variety of differences in matters of Religion and which concern the worship of God being not able so well to accommodate themselves for livelihood and subsistence in any other State with the freedome of their consciences should desire a Toleration in that Suppose those men of your judgement of whom you speak pag. 10. who were as you there say condemned to death for their Discipline ready to be executed and were afterwards exiled into forrain countryes Suppose I say these men had desired a Toleration in their own countrey of those who thus unreasonably dealt with them had they violated all Rules and Principles of Reason by such a desire But the truth is that the assertion is so notoriously against all reason that it is scarce consistent with reason to bestow so much pen in answer to it There is but one only supposition to make either reason or truth of it if it be granted it may passe for both If the desires of some Presbyterians be All Reason and nothing reason but they then both the Opinion and Demands of the Apologists must be acknowledged to be against all Reason But otherwise I know no principle or rule of reason at all so much as discourtesied by either Secondly whereas you say that sundry of themselves could not deny it and had nothing to say c. First certain I am that some of them have absolutely denied any such confession Secondly the acknowledgement it selfe looks no more like any of the rest then a meer fiction doth the Relator I beleeve that upon inquirie it will be found a misprision of truth For doth it not sound aloud incredibilitie that men of sufficient abilities to dispute their opinion in any Assembly in Europe should confesse their Opinion and Demands to be against all reason But such stones as these are fit for A. S. his building Thirdly whereas you say that they could never shew their opinion cut of Gods word we answer that they have often shewed it but God and men it seems are not yet agreed to have it so generally seen as is to be desired but our hope is that the agreement will be concluded between them in due time Fourthly and lastly you conclude this reasâ—â— with this undertaking that if it your brethrens opinion we