Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	church_n	member_n	visible_a	2,949	5	9.1858	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85314	Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex.	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.	1652 (1652)	Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624	107,263	123

any power invested with Authority but if they injoyne a thing to bee done and it be refused that Authority will reach further Authoritas cogit as is the kind of the Authority Civill or Ecclesiasticall Blessed Burroughs in answering to that which some would have Iren. p. 44. scil that a Synod may formally excommunicate because by excommunication they i.e. Hereticall Churches are put out of the Kingdome of Christ into the Kingdome of Satan and this will terrifie saith consider whether this be not done before and that with an authority of Christ by those former six things mentioned in the page before for Hereticall Congregations or persons are judged and declared in a solemn Ordinance by the Officers of Christ gathered together in his name to be such as have no right to any Church Ordinance to have no Communion with any of the Churches of Christ now if this judgement be right are not such persons or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Christ and put under the power of Satan consequently Certainly this cannot be a ground of such difference shall Non and Ex make such a stir when Non is as bad as Ex I should judge my self I am sure to be in as bad a case by the one as the other though for my part this notion of Catholike-visible-Church hath made me ready to yeeld to Synods juridicall power I could I say yeeld it and yet not differ from these reverend Divines if they follow home their non-communion close Now if you say what doth this helpe against Hereticall Congregations though you have proceeded to Non-communion they regard it not but still go on in their Heresies and leaven others to that they wil say what do they care for your excommunication if all the Hereticks in England were excommunicated they would not care but go on still Indeed our New England Divines will teach us a way how to helpe it viz. if a Synod hath declared against an Hereticall Congregation being pertinacious and so hath proceeded to non-communion they will call in the Civil power to help and so they have a way to help by their non-communion and this must be the help of them though they be excommunicated This Mr. Norton intimates Resp ad Apol. 148 Keyes 50 Iren. c. 4. Mr. Marshal relates that Zuinglius in a publick dispute did so stop the mouthes of the Anabaptist that they appearing to the Magistrates unreasonably obstinate were banish d the City Defen ag Tomb. 58. Ecclesiae appellant Magistratum in causis Ecclesiae non ad doctrinam declarandam vel disciplinam exequendam sed ad doctrinam a Cencilio declaratam vel disciplinam ab ecclesiâ applicatam sanctione Civili confirmandam The dury which Mr. Cotton sheweth to lye upon the Civill Magistrate inferres as much As also Mr. Burroughs And thus it was in New England when the Synod at which the Civill Power was present as to hear so to keep civill order had consuted and condemned the Errors and Heresies and so was broke up then a Generall Court was called which soon suppressed those Heresies and brought the Churches to peace again If the Civill power would do as much here we should soon see our Churches in better order What Civill Magistrates have done in this ease before I need not mention books are full It s true the Churches were when there was no Civill Power to defend them but oppose them but we can finde how many Heresies and Schismes they were then troubled with shall the Church be in no better case under a Christian Civill Power Nursing-Fathers then at that time 6 Doe the Classicall godly men looke upon their Congregations having visible Saints among them to be true visible Churches so doe the Congregationall men judge them also I gave instance before 7 Would then the Classical brethren have their members being such as have right to the Ordinance to partake with Congregational Churches in the Lords Supper to shew their communion certainly so they ought but why Congegationall men doe refuse godly men members of Classicall Churches not admitting them to the Lords Supper when they have desired it is very strange to me I wish our reverend Brethren would give us solid grounds for this practice for it gives offence and that justly a Preface to survey ch dis Mr. Hooker and b Iren. p. 266. Mr. Burroughs have both said they should be admitted Shal a Church be acknowledged to be a true Church where Doctrine and Worship is pure also this person a member of it a visible Saint it may be a real Saint and shall he be denyed communion 8 For Classes Pref. surv ch dis the Congregationall men say Consociation of Churches is not onely lawfull but in some cases necessary So Mr. Hooker Mr. Cotton speakes fully to this Keyes p. 54 55. weighty matters such as Election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder or any person of publike note the translation of an Elder from one Church to another it is an holy Ordinance to proceed with common consultation and consent I suppose thus much might have beene obtained of the Classical-brethren that though in cases of weight as excommunication they would not have such an Ordinance carried on by one Minister but have the thing seriously examined first and debated in a Classis yet when the thing had beene concluded upon they would leave the execution of the sentence to the officer or officers of the Church where the case lyeth If so much might be obtained I should be very farre from opposing a Classis I would not willingly live without one I know of no other material point of difference as for the first subject of the power of the Keyes that is but a notion though its true much practise depends upon it yet I finde not that our Divines here would have the fraternity to be the first subject by their owning of Mr. Cotton his booke of the Keyes for Mr. Cotton makes a Church organized to bee the first subject and not the Fraternity as is apparent in divers places of that booke The summe is I wonder at our differnces well might that worthy Divine say in his letter to me from New England It s the wonderment of this side of the world that you that are godly and may agree yet will not surely the cause lyeth more in the Will then any thing else Give me leave therefore I pray to make my humble request to our Reverend Divines the Congregational-men that they would please to close in with the Classical brethren and not suffer these groundlesse differences to trouble the Churches any longer If you aske Why doe you make your request to us are we the cause why they are not bealed I cannot thinke the cause lyes onely in the Ministers nay I have heard long since there had been an agreement among the Ministers had not some others that live by divisions broken it but whether all Ministers are of the

subject for reciprocation cannot bee with them for Preaching Administration of Sacraments Government c. to be sure the people cannot doe there will be more said for the Presbytery they actually choose they actually admit they actually govern and exercise discipline they have both the Power and the Act but for the people they cannot doe any Act which belongs to the Officer nor have so much as the power of it we may see by this where the power will cheifly reside to say the Fraternity though they have not officiall power yet they have power to chuse an Officer and so consequently they are the first subject this is very unsatisfactory to have the Adjunct reciprocated at the second hand it being denyed before that they have the Adjunct the reciprocation betweene homo animal risibile is not at second hand 2 This doth not at all shake me but I stand on my ground still conceiving that the Church or ganized is the first subject of the power of the Keyes not that I make the people equall sharers in the power of the keyes with the Officers but what I mean I shall expresse afterwards 3 Yet am I not satisfied nor could ever be that whatever belongs to the Church must needs be included in the power of the keyes Election I look at it only as Potest as circa claves but not to be a power of them The Text tells us the use of them what thou bindest what thou loosest to bind and to loose is the use of them but what is this to the election of an Officer when as hee may refuse their Call or the Call of any Church how doe they loose him or bind him Electio noncogit For the other two things Admission and Discipline Those Divines who say that Baptisme makes men Members of the Church if they can prove this strongly they will carry away the former scil that the people have nothing to do in Admission of members for baptisme makes members now to this I cannot yet fully agree there might be much said for the contrary I conceive the New England Divines have spoken well to this besides the opinion of M. Cartwright Ans to 32. Qu. p. 12. and Ames who joyn with them So those Divines who affirme the Presbytery may excommunicate renitente plebe if they can prove it strongly they will carry away the latter and then indeed its cleare the people have no interest in the power of the keyes but this neither can be admitted and the streame of Divines oppose this But though I yeeld the Ministry cannot orderly doe these things without the people yet I deny the people do these things in the same way and order that the Ministry doth them And therefore Quaere Whether it be proper to say the people hath any power of the keyes For Admissions this will be more troublesome because we finde no examples of the Churches where the people did shew their power in Admissions for that act of Paul Act 9.26 27. Whether it be sufficient to prove it I leave it to consideration they did not admit why they were afraid of him the text saith being a persecutor then no wonder the Apostles as well as the people were afraid of him the 27 verse saith Barnabas carried Paul to the Apostles not to the people which would imply the Apostles carryed the stroke in Admissions Further to search into this let us suppose the Ministry of the Church of Corinth preach an Infidell heare them the man is so far convinced of the vanity of his Heathenism and danger of his sinful lusts he wallowed in and so far convinced of the necessity of that Doctrine which he heares that he renounces his Idols reforms his conversation c. now he comes to the Ministers to signifie what is done and what he desires to be received into the Church and be baptized being willing to give up himselfe to that doctrine the Ministry instrumentally hath wrought this now what power hath the people here to hinder this man is it at their choyce whether they will admit him or no when the Officers see what effect the preaching hath had here being a Disciple made shal they be hindred from baptizing him what power have the people here what shall they goe first and examine him I know not where examination was ever given to the people must he make his profession of faith before all the Church as Victorinus that brave Rhetorician Aug. Con fes l 8. c 2. we find it was not their course to doe so with all those whom they admitted for many did onely to the Presbyters This power indeed the brethren have that if any know this man to live in a known way of wickednesse that cannot possibly stand with any hopes of faith to come and give in witnesse against such a person to the Officers I suppose this will be yeelded and the Officers would not now baptize him But what power more they have I know not they see his conversation and can testifie of that but it were strange that it should be left to the peoples choyce whether they will admit a man or not when the word hath had so much power and they cannot bring in sufficient objections to the contrary Put case the major part of the members of the Church had drunk in some errors that a major part may do so hath been proved in our time and they will not give their consent to the admission of the man if they finde him not of their opinion commonly those who have drunke in error use to look untowardly upon those who are contrary now the Ministers have no power to admit this man nor baptize him though they see he hath right to it But I leave that For Discipline I conceive renitente plebe the Eldership should not excommunicate it is in vaine to doe so indeed if the people will hold communion but yet this doth not argue that the people doe here act as doth the Eldership For the Eldership doth it Authoritativè the people by a popular consenting with the Officers that the person bee excommunicate the people doe act here obedientially to their Officers therefore a vaste difference is betweene them I remember a passage of Mr. Hookers in the Assembly of Divines When a case is brought to the Elders the Elders having searched all things to the bottome now the Elders bring the case to the Fraternity and lay it down clear before them this is the case and this ought to be done now said he the people are bound to obey us as well as when wee preach And it is cleare for as in preaching they discover the minde of God so in this sentence they declare the same concerning this act Keyes 15 2 Cor. 10.6 We have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled Mr. Cotton saith the Apostles revenge of disobedience by way of reproofe in preaching doth not follow the peoples obedience but