in Three of them by his Legates or Deputy They shew great Respect to his Letters and follow his Direction They hear him call'd their Head without Contradiction and call him so Themselves They own him to have the Care of the Vineyard vâ—z the Whole Church committed by Christ to his Charge Now how can I imagine the Bishops there assembled to be Protestants since You and I that know what kind of things Protestants are are very well assar'd that had those Prelates been Protetants instead of these Honourable Titles and Respects they had e'en set upon Him with those Course Protestant Complements of Antichrist Whore of Babylon Vsurper c. with a peremptory Demand of What had he to meddle there with his Legates and 〈◊〉 of Direction in the 〈◊〉 Church whose Diocese like other Bishops was no other but what was over-lookt by the Seven Hills You know if the Centurists Osiander Mr. Cartwright Bibliander Dr. Whitaker Mr. Bale or Mr. Beard had been there they had in such Honourable Phrases Entitled him to Tyranny and Vsurpation as they have since with other of their Brethren done in their Writings But since instead of these Reform'd Complements I find the Pope Treated by those Four First General Councils with all Submission Respect and Veneration how can my Reason be convinc'd that those Bishops and Divines there assembled were Protestants Do you but imagine with your self that Pope Sylvester Damasus Celestine and Leo instead of Directing their Legates and Letters to those First General Councils had sent them to a Synod of Dort of Charenton to such Committees for Religion or Convocations as have been at any time held in these Northern Climates since the time of Lather's Pretended Reformation what Reception do you think they would have had Can you imagine they would have given to the Legates the most Honourable Seats as was done in those Councils Would they be heard to stile the Pope the Successor of Peter and Their Head with that awful Silence as was done there Would the Pope's Orders and Directions be receiv'd with that Submission as was done by those Venerable Synods Misrepres Troth I am apt to believe they would not Repres Then I am apt to believe and have Reason for 't that the Prelates and Divines of those Four First General Councils were nothing like These that have been of late assembled in our National Synods and Convocations that is No Protestants For if your Protestant Religion were really the same Religion as was then Profess'd in the time of those First Councils the Behaviour of those Ancient Prelates had certainly been no other than such as might rationally be expected from our Modern Protestant Synods and Convocations had the same Legates and Letters been Directed from the Pope to them and yet how Vast a difference there is betwixt what Those did heretofore and These would do now were they in the like Circumstances You your self cannot but acknowledge and whilst you own that Those Primitive Bishops of the Ancient and yet Pure Church did behave themselves so unlike Protestants how can I who am to govern my self by Reason conclude them to have been Protestants Come you exact too hard a Task of me if you expect I shall believe that the Primitive Christians were Protestants you must e'en do more than Say so you must shew that those Ancient Doctors did behave themselves in their Pulpits like our Modern Doctors That They did then in their Sermons rail against the Pope and endeavour to prove Him Antichrist That Obeying and Believing the Catholic Church was going Blindfold and Pinning Faith upon Sleeves That Praying to Saints was Idolatry and Praying for the Souls departed an Idle Superstition and a Tricking them to Heaven I have shewn you the same Popish Doctrines Profess'd heretofore as you now find at this day shew me but such Damning Sermons Preach'd against them heretofore and you 'l do something Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants Representer I Hope you are by this time satisfi'd Misrepresenter that the Professors of such Doctrines and Principles as you call Popish were every where to be found in the Time of the Primitive Church when you say the Protestant Religion was Generally Profess'd amongst Christians Misrepresent I very freely acknowledge That in the Time of the Primitive Church and of the First Four General Councils there were very many Eminent Men thro' Infirmity or Blindness Embracing and Professing Popish Doctrines This I will not be so obstinate as to deny because I find most of the Ancient Fathers of the Church branded with the Mark of Popish Errors by Our own Century-Writers and other Protestant Divines Hierome Ambrose Austin Athanasius Gregory Chrysostome and the rest of them do not escape this Censure They all had their Failings in this Point They câ—ndescended too much to the Infirmity of their Times and in many of their Doctrines knew not what they said or Taught But still the Church was Protestant and the Four First General Councils as I told you before were all Protestants You may claim some Particular Doctors of those Times if you will and welcom but for the Church and Councils these were certainly Ours and their Religion was the same True Protestant Religion as is here by Law Establish'd Repres Well I don't know how far Interest or Passion or Education may work in this Point But I cannot bring my Reason and What you say to meet for my Life and yet I have been trying and turning and stretching it every way since our last Meeting and ' twon't do at last For look you now You say Those First General Councils were Protestants This presently raises a Notion in my Head That all those Bishops and Divines there assembled were like our Protestants here in England and I presently resemble them to our Convocations or Parliaments Here I begin to Imagine what so many Divines of Ours would have done in those Times had they been then in Body I consider that the Times were then very Dangerous Popery as you confess began to spread many Eminent Men were infected with its Errors Then think I Certainly if the Fathers in those Councils had been Protestants there could not have been wanting some Zealous Doctor who would have animated the Fathers to the utter Exâ—irpation of those Errors and with a Fervorous Protestant Harangue have prepar'd them for the Enacting of Laws or Canons to prevent the Growth of Popery and sor the Preservation of the Protestant the most Moderate and best Religion in the World. I cannot 〈◊〉 but there would
THE Catholic Representer OR THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND REPRESENTED Second Part. Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty For his Houshold and Chappel 1687. THE CONTENTS CHAP. I. OF the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists Pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication CHAP. II. Whether Papists Pray directly to the Cross as is positively Asserted by a Protestant with an Essay of a Heathen-Catechism after the Copy of the Truly-representing Protestant-Catechism in which this Calumny is publish'd CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protetant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet Entituled The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers CHAP. IV. The Form of the Catholic Church Establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this Point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably Damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsom Advices from the B. V. c. CHAP. V. The Papist as to the Articles of his Belief follows the Method prescrib'd by Christ practis'd by the Apostles and the Primimitive Church The Method is of Divine Institution and more according to Reason than what Others follow The Word Worship is Equivocal and acknowledg'd so by St. Austin CHAP. VI. The Papist do's not Believe but upon most Convincing Reasons Mysteries of Faith above Reason not contrary to it The Papist is not depriv'd of the Word of God nor kept from the Knowledge of the Gospel He do's not Pray to the Cross more than Protetestants Pray to their Bibles or the Sacrament Three Protestant Queries Answer'd CHAP. VII The Vulgar among the Papists not depriv'd of the Word of God. They are better Instructed in the true Sense of it than those of other Perswasions who Teach themselves The Vnlearned and Vnstable wrest it to their own Destruction CHAP. VIII The Vulgar not permitted to read the Bible among the Papists for fear they should discover the Errors of their Religion an Absurd Calumny The Restraint is That there may not be as many different Words of God as there are Heads amongst them and may have something better Ground than their own Imagination to direct their Faith. A Word to a Lay-Friend CHAP. IX The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person No Possibility of meeting in One Faith whilst Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-Story of the Frogs and Crabs The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity CHAP. X. Private Interpretation of Scriptures the Occasion of Divisions Some Protestant Divines call in the Assistance of Authority and Guides but all ends in the Private Spirit The Question started Where was the Protestant Religion as it is now Reform'd before Luther The Answers of some Protestant Divines CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the Satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Profess'd amongst the Christians of those Purer Times CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those Times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine CHAP. XIII The Professors of Popish Doctrines in the Primitive Times no Protestants but Papists Popish Tenets not only the Opinions of Private Doctors but the Doctrine of the Primitive Church The Four First General Councils no Protestants CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessâ—ons of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformatiâ—â— disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity THE PAPIST Misrepresented AND Represented SECOND PART CHAP. I. Of the Veneration shewn to Images of Christ the Virgin Mary c. Whether the Papists pray to Images in Relation to a Passage of a Book Entituled A Catechism truly Representing the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome and its Vindication THe Papist Misrepresented worships the Images of Christ and his Saints he kisses them uncovers his Head falls down before them offers Incense and Prays to them and uses all such Postures of Worship as he would do to the Person or Persons thereby represented if they were present And whosoever thinks otherwise amongst them is accursed Catech. truly repres the Doctr. of the Ch. of Rome p. 42. THe Papist Represented is taught That the Images of Christ of the Virgin Mary and other Saints ought to be kept and especially in Churches and due Honour and Veneration given them not for that any Divinity or Vertue is believed to be in them or that any thing is to be asked of them or any confidence to be placed in them as was anciently done by the Heathens who put their trust in Idols but because the Honour which is exhibited to the Images is referr'd to the Prototype or Thing represented by them So that by the Images which he kisses and before which he kneels or puts off his hat he adores Christ and reverences his Saints whom the said Images represent This is what He is taught and are the Words of the Council of Trent Sess 25. And tho some endeavour to cast an Infamy upon this Doctrine and Practice by letting loose the School-debates amongst the multitude and raising Mists and Confusion from the disagreeâ—ng Opinions of Divines Yet in honest Practice he 's conscious to himself of doing no more than what he sees done every Day by such who commendably follow the regular Motions of Humane Nature the Dictates of unbiass'd Reason First therefore as Men judge it nothing but Decent and Reasonable to set forth and adorn their Houses with the Pictures of such Persons as belong to their Family of their old Friends Benefactors Governours such as they esteem and whose Memory they desire to preserve and honour So he cannot but think it as agreeable to Reason that the House of God be
the ridiculing of Popery but the same if followed on will as certainly undermine the Truth of the whole Gospel and cut the Sinews of all Religion This Heathen-Catechist has not gone one tittle beyond the Copy set him in the True-representing Catechism and you see how fearfully it begins to work The citation of three or four words out of a Hymn was Argument enough to lay the Papists flat for so many stupid Sots and has any thing been here asserted against the Protestants but what has been supported by as plain and express words as those of the Popish hymn If in the one case therefore this way of proving do's not hold how comes it to be so conclusive in the other Misrepresent The Words 't is true of the Scripture cited in this Mock-Catechism are as plain and express as can be but they are here made use of in a sence never intended by those Divine Pen-men the Authors of Sacred Writ who tho they have the very words cited yet never meant them as here they are brought in their literal and rigid sence but some of them Figuratively some of them in Conformity to our Apprehensions some of them in the Person of another c. and begin thus understood they make no reflection upon Protestancy or Christanity but are truly edifying Repres This is honestly said and if you could but do so in any others case besides your own there would be more peace in this Nation and above half the Devils that disturb its quiet would be laid Had the True-representing Catechism but thus impartially interpreted the words of the Hymn above mention'd and given the true sence of it he had never been set upon the File of Misrepresenters But to charge bluntly an absurdity upon the Papists and to pretend to prove it against them from their own plain words without discovering their meaning is to do the same as our Heathen-Catechist has perform'd to the life defaming Christianity from the express words of Scripture and both alike by Misrepresenting Would you and such whose thriving depends much upon your Art see to give every thing its true weight and sence and shew the right side outward of every thing you expose to the admiring Crowds this sincere and honest dealing would much more recommend you to well meaning people than the more fashionable way of blackning and ridiculing your Neighbours But an ill habit is not easily laid by 'T is matter of some Admiration to me to consider how uneven your Proceedings are in this kind how readily you can discover a speech to be figurative when that sence best serves your own turn And how in other occasions nothing of Figure can be found when the literal sence will serve to cast an infamy upon the Papists The Fathers in their Works do very frequently address themselves to the Martyrs and Saints in Heaven desiring their Assâ—stance and Prayers that they would joyn with them in their Requests Nay they expresly say that the Saints ought to be pray'd to Now because this do's not favour your Cause in the literal sence 't is strange how industrious you are to suck out the substance and to blow it all up into a Figure and those express Prayers are no Prayers but rather Raptures Innocent Wishes Rhetorical Flights and Apostropâ—es On the other side tho the Papists are never any where directed to pray to the Cross have no Prayers to the Cross yet because in one of their Hymns are found two words literally implying a Prayer to it Oh! this must be taken literally here no Figure can be discover'd no Rapture no Innocent Wish Rhetorical Flight or Apostophe altho the whole Hymn be nothing but a Poetical composure which without any injury to Christian Truth takes the liberty of such Innocent Flights Thus are you sometimes for Figures and somtimes for no Figures managing every thing as will best contribute to the advancing your own Cause the running down Popery and making it odious with the People This seems to be your chief aim in all your Performances and the only Measure of your Comments and Interpretations I wish you would be more serious in a Concern of this moment and not expose thus the Reputation of the greatest part of the Christian World to the mercy of every little Conceit and petty imaginary Proof Such Arguments as these might serve well enough for a Christmas-Nights Entertainment but to insert them for a Catechism-Proof when the Subject is Religion and the Guidance of Souls is very unseasonable and improper especially when true Representing and doing it faithfully is pretended in the Frontispiece Misrepresent Do'nt run your self out of Breath upon this Point you have another yet to speak to viz. Why the Papists go in long Pilgrimages to certain Images if they do not Pray to them or hope to be better heard for Praying there Represent That 's another of the Catechism Proofs but for a Diversion there 's another Piece calls for a Word or two Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. III. Whether the Doctrine of Transubstantiation be contrary to the Writings of the Primitive Fathers or agreeable to them The Papist believes his Senses in this Mystery as much as the Protestant being Notes upon a late Pamphlet intit'led The Papists Doctrine of Transubstantiation not agreeable to the Primitive Fathers The Papist Misrepresented by the wonderful Advantages of Implicit Faith and Prejudice is preserv'd in Ignorance and led into the most Monstrous of Errors By these helps the late Inventions of Men are shamm'd upon him for the Doctrine of the Primitive Church and what was never known to the Ancient Fathers takes place in his Creed as Their most constant and profess'd Doctrine This is evident in many Particulars but most clearly as to the Point of Transubstantiation which the Primitive Fathers were so far from holding that They believ'd the direct contrary Indeed we have from the Writings of the Fathers so many plain Places against this Doctrine that we cannot conceive how it came into the World so that notwithstanding the Papists pretence to Antiquity in this Point we shall find they are meer Gibeonits who have made use of their moldy bread and clouted shoes to deceive the People of the Lord and that they confidently lay claim to the Fathers for the defence of this Point which upon examination is found quite contrary to their Belief Sum. of the Pamphl THe Papist Represented admits nothing to take place in his Creed but upon such strong and convincing Motives that none can accuse him of Ignorance or Error but those who have their Judgments swallow'd up by Prejudice and whose Passion has over-run their Reason The Inventions of Men are with him but of little value they may be the Subject of his Opinion but no concern of his Faith This bids them
expected he should know or deliver truly the Doctrine of our Church who is so unhappy as not to know his own Mind But in one breath desires to be inform'd and Vows to follow wheresoever Truth â—or Charity shall lead him and in the very next without condition or reserve desires rather to die than to move one step from where he stands No this coming with Vow'd Docility in one hand and sturdy Presumption in the other is no good Argument of Sincerity and Honesty the qualities he so eagerly pretends to and ungroundedly questions in me Misrepresent Well but he has prov'd beyond the possibility of Reply that the Papists are on the Uncharitable side and Protestants on the Charitable out of your own Authors and your Charitable Doctrine to be new Popery Represent You have his Word for 't p. 8. But any besides a Layman will call it only a Say-so instead of a Proof His Protestant Charity which he even boasts of is the granting Salvation to Papists upon no other score than Invincible Ignorance and for this he thinks them p. 6. Charitable to a high degree And yet this is the very same Charity Papists have for Protestants the allowing of Salvation possible for such as through invincible Ignorance remain separate from the Church being a common opinion of the Modern and Antient Schoolmen And all those who pronounce so severely against Protestants 't is against Protestants remaining such as he words it p. 8. that is Obstinately and Pertinaciously continuing in Error and Schism in which circumstances Papists too are allow'd no claim to Salvation by Protestants Now where 's the Contradictions and the two sorts of Popery he brags of p. 8. Come Misrepresenter I look upon your Friends put to a hard shift when they begin to talk of New Popery They have been making the Papists odious these hundred Years for their Vncharitableness to Protestants and now the Disguise begins to wear off and the Papists appear as Charitable as Protestants nothing can serve to amuse the people and hinder their seeing the delusion but the noise of New Popery This may do with some but methinks a Sincâ—â—e Layman who desires to be led into all Truth p. 5. might be glad to find Men better than he thought them and not seek for one disguise to palliate another If his mind be tinctur'd with the Blood that runs in his Veins p. 11. yet assure him a Friend of his wishes heartily 't wou'd flow something Cooler and cause in him a more Even Pulse than to require as he does p. 12 nothing less than an Infallible Certainty to better his Opinion of the Papists whilst yet a Fallible Perswasion will content him for all the rest of his Religion Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDCLXXXVI THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. IX The Scriptures not always the Same to the same Person No Possibility of meeting in One Faith whil'st Private Reason sets up for Interpreter of the Word of God. The Sham-story of the Frogs and Crabs The Truth of the Anniversary Solemnity Misrepresent YOur last attempt of Proving the Scriptures to be as various in the Heads of Protestants as there are Heads amongst them was very Bold and I am perswaded now you are Cooler you 'l disown the Assertion Represent What I said was to lay before you the Reason why amongst the Catholics the Reading of the Bible is not promiscuously allow'd the Vulgar And to that end I shew'd you that the Ordinary People in all Nations being for the most part Vnlearned and Vnstable wheresoever the Canvassing the Scripture is freely permitted them without exception they generally understand it several ways and consequently what is the Scripture to Them is Multiplied and made as Numerous as their different Conceptions and Imaginations of it And now I 'll go farther with you for 't is not only thus in several People but even the same Person many times has the Faculty of Multiplyiâ—g the Word of God. For how many are to be found amongst the Vulgar who according to their different Humours as their Interest changes according to the different Impressions they receive from Confidents especially such as have gain'd their good Opinion espouse different Doctrines and Perswasions and run through as many Sects as there are Divisions in the Nation And yet in all their Windings they still follow as they imagine the Scriptures always guiding themselves by what they think the Word of God evidently speaks to them Don't you see how to these same Persons the Word of God is not always the same It alters according to Seasons and Times and 't was one Word of God directed them the last year another this and it may be another before the next So that tho' it be always the same Vnchangeable in their Hands as to the Letter yet it often changes in their Heads as the Meaning Misrepresent This is a fine Whim to undermine the Authority of the Scriptures But say what you will the Word of God is Plain Easie and Clear and God has given to every one Reason enough to Understand it the Reading it is comfortable the Following it a Duty And 't is an injury of the highest nature to deprive any tho the meanest Soul of so considerable a Blessing Represent If it be so Plain and Easie as you say how comes it there 's so little agreement in the Vnderstanding it How are there so many Different and Contrary Divisions Sects and Perswdsions in this One Nation How comes it that even in the Essentials of Christianity concerning the Trinity Incarnation the Divinity of Christ the Sacrament Baptism the Holy Catholic Church the Communion of Saints the Forgiveness of Sins the Resurrection of the Flesh c. there has been and at present is so great diversity amongst those that read the Scripture The business is you are for setting up every mans Private Reason to be Judge of Scripture If you have seen the Answer to the Protestant Plea for a Socinian you 'l find there p. 26. he points it out for the Mark of a Right Socinian to make Reason the Rule of the Scriptures Such a one says he makes Reason the Rule of that Rule And are not you far worse in this than the Rankest Socinian in the World whilst with him you do not make Common Reason the Measure of that Rule but every mans Private Reason which when put to the Test proves in Thousands and Thousands to be nothing better than Passion Prejudice Interest Imagination Guessing or Phancy Don't you find by experience there 's no such Trivial Proposal made but presently the Company 's divided there 's Head against Head Reason against Reason and this tho' the concern be but of Hay or Straw or the most obvious in the World Don't you see again that almost every Man's Reason is different as their Capacity Parts Education Temper Inclination Impressions are different
And what think you now Misrepresenter tell me your Opinion was the Protestant Religion Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in these Primitive Times when Constantine govern'd both the Western and Eastern World Do's the Church in his time practising as you have now seen acknowledg'd by unquestionable Authorities look like a Protestant Church If you know what 't is to be a Protestant tell me your mind Was Constantine and his Church Protestants or no Misrepresent You have hunted out for all the Superstâ—tions Errors and Oversights of that Age and now ask Whether the Professors were Protestants And I answer you They were Protestants as to the Doctrine of the Gospel and Creed which they profess'd tho' not as to their Oversights and Errors Represent That is to say in plain English They were Protestants as the Papists now are Protestants Any honest man by your appeal to and Pretext of Reformation according to the Primitive Times would have expected to have found a Protestant Religion profess'd and practis'd in those times as 't is now here in this Nation by Law establish'd And yet when we have taken a Prospect of those Primiâ—ive Ages we find the Christians then living Professors of no other Protestancy than such as is seen practis'd at this day in their Majesties Chappels at White-Hall Somerset house and St. James's and that I think is a Protestancy which is call'd Popery Misrepresent Why in our Reformation we are no more oblig'd to take in the Errors of Constantine 's time than those Corruptions we found in the time of Henry 8. No we Reform according to the Purity of the Gospel and have no other Rule than that of the Word of God Instructing and Directing us And as for all Superstitions they are alike rejected by us tho' some have Antiquity to plead in their behalf Represent Then I see however you pretend your Reformation has reduc'd Christianity to that state as 't was profess'd in the Primitive Times Yet when we come to look into those times thinking to find a Flourishing Uncontrol'd Protestancy Generally and Publickly Profess'd we are still as far to seek for 't as before and all that appears is the Doctrine of the Creed and Gospel profess'd but together with what you call the Errors and Superstitions of Popery so that to be a Protestant according to the Primitive Times is nothing else but to be a Papist Certainly this must be a very surprising disappointment to some to find Constantine the Great and Eusebius his Historian to be such kind of Popish Protestants as these who yet are set down by your Dr. Swadlin as the Ancient Protestants according to whose Faith and Practice the present Reformation was regulated and against whose Positions says he Ans 11. if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yield So that let me tell you By what I can see as yet when a man has taken the pains to look back to those Primitive Ages he can be no more satisfied where the Protestant Religion as 't is now Reform'd was in the time of Constantine than when Luther began the Reformation but after all his search he must rest contented either with the Plain Mans Reply of its being Home where or other or else with the same It may be as was given to the Parishioner It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassin and Egyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud cover'd with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Famil Discourse betwixt a Minister and Parishioner p. 14. ADVERTISEMENT THis is to give notice That this last Week were sound here in London several Good Protestant Lies concerning Flying Crabs seen in the Chappel at Somerset-house and of the Parish Church of St. James's in the Fields being undermin'd by the Papists and in danger of being demolished by Fire-Balls If the Right Owners will appear they shall be restor'd to them without Cost or Charges and if any will produce them they shall be well rewarded for their Pains Publish'd with Allowance Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine Represent IF you remember at our last meeting Misrepresenter we were looking back into the Primitive Times to see if we could find there the Protestant Religion as 't is now reform'd Generally Profess'd and Practis'd amongst the Christians of that Purer Age. But we lost our labour and all the Hopes You came big with ended in nothing but a disappointment Misrepresent 'T would be a Miracle indeed to find it as long as you have the carrying and management of the Light by which we are to make the Discovery Represent A short memory makes you Unreasonable Have you forgot so soon the very Means and Method by which we enter'd upon our Search were of your own Choice at least by approbation and consent Our business was to make enquiry after the Protestant Religion We agreed to examine the Religion Practis'd in Constantine's time who as your Dr. Swadlin says was a Protestant and in whose time according to your Divines the Protestant Religion was generally profess'd We took an account of the Religion of that Age from Eusebius a Protestant Professor too if you credit Dr. Swadlin and some other Modern Protestants The Translation of Eusebias we made use of was done by a Protestant approv'd and publish'd by Protestants and Printed at Cambridge Anno 1683. a Protestant Vniversity what possibly could be fairer done and more to your advantage And yet after all instead of meeting in those times with the Protestant Religion as now Reform'd we were got in the middle of Good Catholics Professing and Practising their Religion receiv'd from the Apostles pure as yet and uncorrupted as your Fulk and Calvin confess and such as you under the specious Pretext of Reformation have since made Odious and Criminal and done your best to hiss it out of the world Misrepresent The Reformers have preserv'd the Religion of those times Inviolable and have only labour'd to purge Christianity of the Errors then or since that time brought in to deform it Represent This is the proper Mark of the Beast Never a Reformer yet even from Arius to this Day but what has set up his Standard against Pretended Errors and Innovations And this is the stamp they set upon every thing that does not sute with their Humour Fancy or Interest The Reformers of the Reformation go by the same Rule and such as Reform agen upon those that Reform the Reformation still pursue this Method till at last they have
he thinks may be deduc'd from some Practice of theirs as may be seen p. 22. now mention'd But now comes the Faithful-representing Catechism and without mincing it at all he assures all such as will be catechis'd that the Papists Pray to Images and this positively absolutely without explaining any sense in which those words are to be taken not a Word for the preventing any Mistake in his Readers if they 'l think the Papists so sottish as to Pray to Stocks and Stones and expect relief from those Wooden Mediators they may do it for all his true representing Such Christian Calumny he 'l help to transfuse into the Heads of the Ignorant but not a Syllable to obviate the working of such Poyson 'T is true he tells his Reader that the Honour given by Papists to Images is referr'd to the Persons Represented by them but no mention of what is meant by Praying to Images that he leaves to the discretion of every one that can afford to lay out six-pence upon a Catechism against Popery And now at last in his Vindication of this passage he tells ye he did not intend to insinuate by those Words as if the Papists did Pray to Images absolutely so as to expect to be heard by the Images but so as to expect to be heard by Christ for praying to him by his Image in the sense 't was taken above in the Answer to the Papists Misrepresented c. And here he confidently affirms that from the two Answers in his Catechism viz. to Quest 44. and 45. laid together or either of them intire it manifestly appears what he intended by that charge But I must ask him To whom do's this manifestly appear Is he assur'd that all the zealous Controvertists of Spittle-fields and Wapping will dive into this subtilty and understand his meaning tho there be not one word in either of the two Answers to explicate it Do's he think those Favourers of Popery will lay things together to take off from the blackness of the Charge which is absolute and positive in the Indictment He that leaves the Papists their Credit and their Doctrine to the favour and mercy of such a Jury must certainly be very willing to hear Oats's Tune of eighty one plaid over again No when Doctors and Divines charge bluntly and downright 't is not to be expected from the Crowd to make a favourable Interpretation But at last the Catechist in his Postscript will prove that the Papists do in some manner Pray to Images His Argument is thus Prayer is to the Object to which the Veneration is to be given but the Veneration is to be given to the Image as representing and so is the Prayer A piece of Sophistry by which he may prove for the next Edition of his Catechism that the Papists Pray to the Bible as well as to Images they having a Veneration for both the one and the other And if he can but once make out that People Pray to every thing to which they give a Veneration will not this serve to prove that every one who going into Westminster Abby takes off his Hat do's by paying that Veneration in some manner â—ray to the Walls Will it not be the same thing to Petition the Chair of State as to make a Reverence to it and to â—ray to every Dish of Meat that goes to the Kings Table as to bow to it But suppose he could in any sense have prov'd Praying to Images against the Papists by some better Argument than this which is not fit to lie under a University-threshold yet would this be true Representing to insert this Consequence of his into the Character of a Papist It has been decided long ago by his own Party that he that puts the Interpretations and Consequences of Mens Doctrines and Practices into their Character is a Proper Misrepresenter Do's not the Catechist then justly fall under this Infamy who in giving an account of the Papists Doctrine and Practices instead of such a Doctrine or Practice inserts a Consequence of his own into their Character And yet this Catechism in the Title is the truly representing Catechism Again he says he has compos'd this Catechism out of the Papists own Writings out of their own approv'd Authors and Councils and by this his Reader is to understand that every Doctrine and Practice he there imputes to the Papists is what their own Authors and Councils expresly own and profess Now to make good this pretext and justifie himself he is oblig'd to point out to some of the Papists approv'd Authors and Councils which do acknowledge and declare this Point of Praying to Images to be the receiv'd Doctrine and Practice of their Church if not absolutly at least in that sense in which he has explicated himself in his Vindication For if he do's not do this he has most unchristianly wrong'd the Papists in imputing to them a Doctrine and Practice pretendedly according to their most receiv'd Authors but no where found in such Authors or Councils being only a misinterpretation of his own pass'd upon the World for a Popish Doctrine and this will most unluckily draw him into the number of Misrepresenters Lastly in his Answer 10 Q. 44 having declared to his Reader that the Papists kiss the Images of Christ fall down before them offer Incense and Pray to them c. he concludes thus And whosoever doth think otherwise is accâ—rsed For this citing the Council of Trent Sess 25. Catech. Rom. By which he insinuates into his Reader that not only kissing Images of Christ c. but likewise Praying to them is prescrib'd by the Council of Trent and the Catechism ad Parochos and that whosoever shall think otherwise viz. that Images ought not to be kiss'd nor pray'd to is cast out of the Communion of that Church and declar'd Accursed This is what every Reader must understand from that passage And indeed who can apprehend it otherwise especially finding it thus positively asserted in a Book which in the very first leaf is recommended as a Catechism Faithfully drawn out of the allow'd Writings of the Church of Rome And when the Author in the Preface gives this assurance that the Quotations are true he having again and again examin'd them And yet whosoever shall be so curious as to examine the said Council of Trent and Roman Catechism will not find in the places cited nor even throughout the Books so much as one syllable concerning Praying to Images much less any Curse pronounc'd against those who shall think otherwise The Council indeed Anathematizes such who teach contrary to what has been shewn in the beginning of this Paper to be the sense of the Fathâ—rs there assembled touching the Veneration due to the Images of Christ but no mention there of Praying to Images in any sense whatsoever And is it not strange now that when such things as these are charg'd upon the Papists and publish'd to the world for their
sence enough to put it to the Trial. There may be occasion hereafter of evidencing this in many Particulars at present 't will be sufficient to let the impartial Reader see how far this one Argument taken up by the Faithful Catechist to prove the Papists so stupid as to pray directly to a piece of Wood will contribute to the ruin of the Christian Faith and even of Protestancy it self if an Atheist or Heathen should take it out of his hands and use it to the best advantage of his Cause The Argument is this That it must be suppos'd sufficiently prov'd against Catholicks that they pray directly to the Material Cross because there are some words in a Hymn of their Church which if taken in their literal and rigid sence import a direct praying to it Now let but some honest Heathen turn a True-representing Catechism-maker and following exactly this Copy set before him see whether in faithfully describing the Doctrines and Practices of Protestants according to this Rule he cannot do as much for them that is set them out as Absurd and Ridiculous as they have done for the Church of Rome And to follow the method exactly he must go by Questions and Answers We must suppose therefore that the Title of his Book is thus A Catechism truly representing the Doctrines and Practices of Protestants faithfully drawn out of their own Bible and approv'd Liturgy And that thus He begins Q. What God do the Protestants worship and serve A. They worship a God which they believe to have Hands as they expresly own in their Creed where they daily make this profession He ascended into Heaven and sits at the Right hand of the Father And in Ps 138. 7. they thus address themselves to their God Thou shalt streâ—ch fourth thine Hand against the wrath of mine enemies and thy Right Haâ—d shall save me 2. They believe him to have Ears as Psal 17. 6. where they cry out to him O God incline thine Ear unto me and hear my speech And ib. vers 1. O Lord attend unto my Cry give ear unto my Prayer 3. They believe him to have Eyes Nostrils and Mouth as Psal 17. 2. where praying to God they say Let thine Eyes behold the things that are equal And Psal 18. 8. they thus describe him There went up a Smoke out of his Nostri's and Nostri's out of his Mouth Q. Where do they believe the Seat of their God to be A. In Heaven which they believe to be a place upon some Hill as they proâ—ess Psal 3. 4. I cried unto the Lord with my voice and he heard me out of his holy Hill. And Psal 24. 3. Who shall ascend into the Hill of the Lord And again Psal 43. 3. Let them bring me unto thy Holy Hill. Q. What Creatures shall be sav'd or dwell with God for ever upon this Hill A. All Creatures shall be sav'd both Man and Beasts as they expresly believe Ps 36. 7. Thou Lord shalt save both Man and Beast as the Psalms have it in the Common-prayer And Revel c. 4. 6. Round about the throne of God were four Beasts And chap. 5. 6. In the midst of the throne and of the four Beasts and in the midst of the Elders stood a Lamb. And vers 8 the four Beasts and four and twenty Elders fell down before the Lamb. Q. Whom do Protestants address themselves to in the Solemn and Publick Service of their Church A. They address themselves directly to the Saints as Psal 30. 4. Sing unto the Lord O ye Saints of his and give thanks 2. To the Angels Psal 148. 2. Praise ye him all his Angels 3. To the Sun and Moon Beasts Mountains c. Psal 148. 3. Praise ye him Sun and Moon vers 9. Mountains and all Hills vers 10. Beasts and all Cattel Q In what manner do Protestants perform their Publick Devotion and Service to God A. In Lying Cursing and scandalously defaming one another Q. How in lying A. By having such things in their publick Service to be said by all which scarce any one of them can say with truth as Psal 119. 62. At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee Psal 6. 6. I am weary with my groaning all the night make I my bed to swim I water my Couch with my tears Psal 18. 21. I have kept the ways of the Lord and have not wickedly departed from my God. Psal 34. 1. I will bless the Lord at all times his Praise shall continually be in my mouth Psal 35. 13. But as for me when they were sick my clothing was sack-cloth I humblid my self with fasting Psal 109. 24. My knees are weak with fasting Psal 101. 3. I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes Vers 4. A froward heart shall depart from me I will not know a wicked person Vers 5. Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour him will I cut off Vers 7. He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight Psal 113. 4. The mountains skipped like rams and the little hills like lambs These and many more such like Asseverations Promises and Protestations they make in their Devotions and yet how few of them if any without defying their own Consciences and Truth Q. How by Cursing A. In direful Imprecations and fearful wishes imploring the worst of evils against their Neighbour as Psal 109. 6. where they thus pray to God Set thou a wicked man over him and let Satan stand at his right hand when he shall be judg'd let him be condemn'd and let his prayer become sin Let his days be few and let another take his office Let his children he fatherless and his wife a widow Let his children be continually vagabonds and beg Let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places Let the Extortioner catch all that he hath and let the Strangers spoil his labour Let there be none to extend mercy unto him neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children c. can there be more terrible Wishes more direful Imprecations than these Q. How by defaming one another A. By charging one another with the most infamous of Crimes in the heat of their Devotions as in the recital of Ps 50. where the Clerk thus begins vers 18. accusing the Minister When thou sawest a thief then thou consentedst with him and hast been partaker with Adulterers Then the Minister accuses the Clerk Thou givest thy mouth to evil and thy tongue frameth deceit Then the Clerk falls upon the Minister again Thou sittest and speakest against thy Brother and slanderest thine own Mothers Son. Misrcp Hold hold Representer whether will you run you are e'en turning Christianity into a piece of Buffoonry and making a Drol of all Religion Represent You are altogether in the right on 't And this is what I told you in the beginning that there 's no making use of a Protestant Argument which serves that Party for
those expressions of the Fathers are only occasional or accidental but where they treat professedly of this Subject they speak plainly in our behalf and to follow the Rule of one of the Lights of your Church as you stile him in this Pamphlet I would fain know whether a mans judgment must be taken from occasional and incidental passages or from design'd and set discourses which is as much as to ask whether the lively representation of a man by Picture may best be taken when in haste of other business he passes by us giving only a glance of his Countenance or when he purposely and designedly sits in order to that end that his Countenance may be truly represented There 's no Book treats so fully and demonstratively of any Subject in one place but occasionally speaking of the same elsewhere from some obscure or dubious expression furnishes matter for an Objection against the Doctrine before designedly establish'd This is true even of the Bible it self which teaching Christ to be True Man do's yet by the occasional expression of St. Paul saying that he appear'd in Habit as a Man and in the Likeness of a Man give occasion to some to object that he was no Real and Substantial Man which strikes at the very Fundamental Truth deliver'd in that Sacred Volume and if this be true even of the Word of God it self what wonder to find it in the Works of the Fathers much more ample and voluminous Misrepresent This is another shift with a help of a Logical distinction however let this pass too But as long as you don't believe your sences but deny the certainty of those Powers which God has given us to lead us to the Belief of all the Mysteries of Christian Religion I am sure you contradict the Fathers and are in a fair way of undermining the very foundation of Christianity Represent This is the Cock-Argument of the other Light of your Church and it so far resembles the Light that like it it makes a glaring shew but go to grasp it and you find nothing in your Hand Why Misrepresenter even in this Mystery I believe more of my Sences than you do my Eyes tell me there is the colour of Bread and I assent to them my Tongue that it has the tast of Bread I agree to it my smelling that it has the smell of Bread I yield to it my Fingers that it feels like Bread I accept of the Information my Ears tell me from the Words spoken by Christ himself That it is the Body of Christ I believe these too Is not here Misrepresenter one Sence more than you believe And yet you would fain perswade the World I do not believe my Sences The Sence by which Faith comes is that of Hearing S. Paul possitively affirming that Faith comes by Hearing and how do I overthrow the certainty of Christian Religion by hearkning to that Sence by which all Faith is to be conveyed into my Soul Misrepresent You don't believe your Eyes which assure you of the Substance of the Bread being there even after Consecration Represent If your Eyes see the Substance of things they are most extraordinary ones and better than mine For my part mine never saw farther than the Colour or Figure c. of things which are only accidents and the entire Object of that Sence 'T is Reason or Judgment acquaints me with the Substance and this Judgment 't is true I frame generally from the Information of my Sences excepting when they are indisposed or some Divine Revelation intervenes For in this case I choose rather to judge from This than from my Sences as Abraham did who being told by his Sences That those three that appeared to him Gen 18. were Men and by a Revelation from God that they were Angels judged of them and their Nature according to the Revelation and not according to his Sences Misrepresent You are all upon Quirks and Philosophy to day and I am tired with your Distiactions and so farewel till the Holy-days are over Represent Fare you well but do you hear don't forget to send your People to the Chappels to Morrow Morning to see the Nursing and Rocking the Child in the Cradle This is one of your April-Errands for Christmas Morning and you don't think much of making the Papists ridiculous though it be at the expence of making your own people Fools Publish'd with Allowance London Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majesty for His Houshold and Chappel 1686. THE PAPIST Misrepresented and Represented SECOND PART CHAP. IIII. The Form of the Catholic Church establish'd by Christ No hopes of Salvation out of it The Practice of the Apostles and Primitive Church in this point Good at this day The Protestants as uncharitably damn the Papists as These are said to do the Protestants In reference to the Preface of Wholsome advises from the B. V. c. THe Papists Misrepresented is Member of a Church which excludes all others from the hopes of Salvation besides those who are within the Pale of her own Communion And no doubt his Church is True if uncharitableness be but a Mark of the True one if it be but safest to be on the uncharitable side he 's beyond all question in the right But certainly this is to leave the Rule of Christ and his Apostles and of the Primitive Church who taught none of this damning Doctrine but ever recommended Charity as the necessary foundation of a Christian life THe Papist Represented is taught that Christ our Saviour before his Ascension into Heaven establish'd a Church consisting of all True Believers amongst which he gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the Body of Christ till we all come in the Vnity of Faith. Ephes 4. 11 12 13. These Apostles Evangelists Pastons and Teachers he constituted over the Faithful to over-see rule and direct them to whom he gave them in charge by the mouth of St. Paul Act. 20. 28. Take heed therefore unto your selves and to all the Flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you Over-seers to feed the Church of God which he hath pnrchas'd with his own blood with a strict Command to the Flock or Congregation of the Faithful to be obedient to these Pastors thus put over them by the Ordinance of God Heb. 13. 17. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for They watch for your Souls as they that must give account And vers 7. Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken unto you the word of God whose Faith follow This command of submitting to Pastors was given to the Flock as he is taught by St. Paul for the preventing Divisions and Schisms that so notwithstanding their differing private Inclinations Capacities Sence and Judgment by this Obedience and Submission to those that
were put over them for their rule and direction they might be perfectly join'd together in the same mind and same judgment 1 Cor. 1. 10. That they might be preserv'd in the Unity of Peace and be no more Children rossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of Doctrine Ephes 4. 14. And that the People or Flock might have no scruple or solicitude upon them for fear of being led into Error by these Apostles and Pastors but might securely and without anxiety of Spirit rest under their Guidance and Direction Christ did most solemnly promise the said Overseers the Apostles and Pastors the assistance of his Holy Spirit I am with you always even unto the end of the world Mat. 28. 2c The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things Jo. 14. 26. By which effectual Promise they were constituted Guides were taught all Truth and all those secur'd from Error who committed themselves to their Instruction The Catholic Church being thus constituted and ordian'd by Christ himself and provided with Apostles and Pastors divinely assisted for the instructing the Flock in the Mysteries of the Christian Faith with an obligation on all that heard them to believe upon pain of damnation He that believeth not shall be damn'd Mat. 16. 16. it is certain that all such as did separate themselves from the Communion of the Apostles either by contradicting or disbelieving their Doctrine or being refractory to their Government did in this most heinously offend the Divine Majesty and exclude themselves from the hopes of Salvation the former by rejecting the true Faith without which 't is impossible to please Him Heb. 11. 6. the latter by disobedience resisting the Ordinance of God They that resist shall receive to themselves damnation Rom. 13. 1. 2. This was the Face and Constitution of the Church of Christ in the time of the Apostles Salvation being promis'd to those that believ'd He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and Damnation threatned to disbelievers He that believeth not shall be damned Mar. 16. 16. So that 't was no Uncharitable but a most Evangelical Assertion in the Evangelist to say The Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved Act. 2. 47. And the declaring that there was no Salvation out of their Church was nothing but a necessary Doctrine The Church being thus by Christ himself founded the Pillar and Ground of Truth 2 Tim. 3. 15. consisting of Pastors and Teachers to instruct and of the Flock under an indispensable obligation of receiving and Submitting to their Instruction it was so to continue to the end of the World Christ's Spirit being to abide with her for ever Jo. 14. 16. The Promise of his assistance being not limited to the Persons of the Apostles but annex'd to their Function As therefore St. Paul when he left Ephesus Act. 20. 28. appointed others to oversee and rule the Flock with their Commission from the holy Ghost So he and the other Apostles when they departed this Life had others to succeed them for the Direction and Government of the Faithful And as those who cut themselves off from the Communion of the Apostles incurr'd the guilt of Damnation by unavoidably in so doing erring in Faith or Disobedience so likewise all those who separated from the Communion of their Successors it being at all times most certainly true that there was no true Faith nor true Charity in any that separated themselves from the Doctrine and Government of the Church of Christ over which the Apostles were Overseers and Rulers for their time and their Successors to be so after them to the end of the World. This as to the Apostles is evident from the severe censure of Deceivers pronounc'd against all those who endeavour'd to make Divisions in their time Ephes 4. 14. where they are said to work by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive And 2 Tim. 2. 18. Such as dissented from the Apostles are condemn'd for erring concerning the Truth and overthrowing the Faith. And Tit. 3. 11. They are said to be subverted and in sin and to be condemn'd of themselves And as to their Successors the Practice of the Primitive Church in the time of her confess'd Purity is a most convincing Argument there being none that in the first three or four Centuries ever separated from them either in point of Doctrine or making Schisms tho under the most colourable pretext of Reforming Errors or rejecting Innovation but were declar'd Innovators as men to be avoided as cut off from the Mystical Body of Christ by the Pastors and Overseers then in being The Rule of St. John 1 Joh. 4. 6. being always the standard-Measure of the Church He that knows God heareth us he that is not of God heareth not us hereby know we the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error Here then 't is evident that the Catholic Church in the time of the Apostles as also of their Successors was the Depository of the true Faith and that to dissent from her in Faith was to fall into Error to divide from God He that hears you hears me and he that despises you despises me Luke 10. 16. If he neglect to hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. and consequently no Promises of Christ nor Salvation to be expected by such who were not of her Communion This same One holy Catholic Church he believes to have continued in all Ages it being at all times true what has been always said by the Faithful in the Creed I believe the holy Ca-Cholic Church and that 't is to remain to the end of the World assisted by the Spirit of God and preserv'd from teaching errors according to the Promise of Christ Matth. 28. 20. Joh. 14. 16. So that as then so now at this time there is a Church succeeding that of the Apostles which teaches all Truth and from which none can separate without erring in Faith or incurring the guilt of Schism Sins altogether inconsistent with Salvation And because after most serious Considerations and the weighing of all Reasons he believes this Church to be that in whose Communion he is he do's not question but what is truly affirm'd of the Church of the Apostles and succeeding Ages and those that fell from it is most true of the same Church now in being of which he 's a Member and of all those who separate from it upon what pretext soever And however this may be painted out for Vncharitablenss yet 't is certainly the very Doctrine deliver'd by the Apostles and the Practice of the Primitive Church And when the worst has been made of it yet still he do's not come short of Dr. Tillotsons Charity for notwithstanding all this yet so much Charity he has and he desires always to have it as to hope that a great many of other separate Perswasions who live piously and have been
almost inevitably detain'd in their Perswasion by the prejudice of Education and an Invincible Ignorance will upon a sincere general Repentance find mercy with God. Misrepresent Enough of this dry reasoning What do you say to a Piece not long since publish'd Wholsome Advices from the Blessed Virgin to her Indiscreet Worshippers which being compos'd by one of your own Perswasion has laid you more open than all your Adversaries could do Come let me tell you the blow that comes from a Friend is the severest and this true Representer has quite blasted all your Representing Characters and Expositions Represent Then I see you intend I should sâ—t up for Reader of Anatomy upon all the Pamphlets that come into the World. I am highly oblig'd to you for the kindness but I think the Scavanger has much tbe better Office who has nothing but Dirt and Sinks to deal with much less offensive than to be always raking in filthy Calumnies fulsome Incongruities and noisome Impertinencies No Misrepresenter I would not undertake it tho I were certain to enlarge my Interest and become as Popular as you have done by your so taking knack of Misrepresenting However to pleasure a Friend as you are I 'll touch at some particulars which seem to fall within my Province of Representing Misrepresent Why I hope there 's no Misrepresenting there you don 't sure do that ill office to one another I thought none but Protestants had been Misrepresenters Represent Yes yes 't is Protestant Misrepresenting I mean to be at As long as it has a Protestant Preface to it never question Misrepresenter but I shall find your finger in it And what think you of the sourth and fiâ—th leaves of the Preface where he sets out the Papist as Weak as Confident as Ridiculous as Foolish as he can well make them are not these Colours of your laying on Misrepresent He do's not assert this barely without giving a Reason for 't He says your pronouncing Damnation against all those that are separated from your Church is an argument of the weakness of your Cause and that your declaring all others to be out of the way of Salvation is only because you are at a loss for other Reasons to convince Mens Vnderstanding and therefore by these Threats and Thunders you work upon their Passions which to considering Men proves nothing more than your own Confidence and Ridiculousness and makes them doubt whether in this you have more of the Fool or the Artist And what Misrepresenting I pray you in this Represent Never more Unreasonable Misrepresenting then when Calumnies are set out with the Colours of Reason You Friend see but with one eye and I fear have that Curse upon you to think even contradictions reasonble so they be but in favour of the Cause you have espous'd He gives a Reason you say for what he says But is it reason or fair dealing in him to load the Papists with the most Ignominious Names and Ridicule them to the Multitude for making such Declarations in reference to such as are out of their Communion which is nothing more than what is done by his own Church nay what he himself do's most solemnly make before he concludes his Preface almost in the same breath with which he so positively declaim'd against the Papist Consider this a little if Considering be not out of thy power The Papists declare that such as separate from the Faith and Communion of their Church sounded by Christ and continued down from the Apostles under a visible Succession of Pastors and Teachers do by that depart from the Truth from the Doctrine and Commands of Christ and consequently are out of the way of Salvation This by the Preface-maker is presently set out for Thundering of Hell and Damnation 't is their Confidence 't is the Weakness of their Cause puts them upon it and for so doing they are void of Charity And yet see how condemning this in the Papists he do's the very same thing himself hear his solemn Profession which he makes in the presence of God the last page of his Preface but one I do here solemnly profess says he in the presence of God that I cannot but conclude the Worship the Doctrines and Practices of the Church of Rome to be so extremely dangerous that nothing but invincible Ignorance of which God only can be judge can give us any reasonable hope of their Salvation who live and die in that Communion Is not here the very same sentence pronounc'd by Protestants a-against the Papist which the Papists declare against the Protestants And yet He that Unchurches the Papists for so doing thinks himself as safe in the very doing of what he condemns that he could venture the Salvation of a thousand Souls if he had them upon the ground on which he stands Pray now tell me how that comes to be so safe so reasonable and secure in Him and his Church which in the Papist he condemns for so Vncharitable and Ridiculous Or how happens it that having dress'd up the Papists in a Fools-coat and afterwards slipping it over his own shoulders he thinks himself to look so Wise and Grave upon 't Come Misrepresenter here 's more of your hand in this Preface then I expect you 'l own if you had net by your malignant influence indispos'd the Author's eye-sight Red and Yellow had been the same Colours to him upon a Protestant-back as upon a Papist Misrepresent Come you wrong the Author by your Misconstructions he do's not say the Papists are damn'd but that their condition is extremely dangerous and this do's not leave them without hope of Salvation Represent 'T is true he 'll allow the Ignorant and Fools of his Communion so much Charity as to think the Papists way he sav'd But for the judicious and learned Protestants who go by Reason who consider and weigh things no such Charity in them there 's no Reasonable hope says he of their Salvation who live and die in that Communion of the Papists So that if any are so Charitable amongst the Protestants 't is for want of being advis'd for want of being better instructed in their Religion 't is for want of being like those that Guide 'em for want of Reason for there 's no Reasonable hope says he of their Salvation no reasonable hope at all unless it be for such of them whose invincible Ignorance will excuse them And is not this the very same which is most frankly allow'd the Protâ—stants by the Papists who after they have been proclaim'd so often to the gaping Crowds for most Vncharitable Damners Thunderers of Hell and Damnation against the poor Protestants do not advance their damnation one ace farther against them then the Protestants themselves most solemnly in the presence of God and after good consideration do against the Papists There being no Papist but what will grant such Protestants hopes of Salvation who living piously and repenting sincerely of all offences through invincible
if the reading the Scriptures is such a defeat to Popery as you give out Is it likely those who have been bred up to the reading the Bible and have made it their Study and Companion should ever embrace that Communion And yet whosoever shall examin will find the greater part of that Church here in this Nation to have had their education and grown up with the Bible in hand and That too not translated for the advantage of Popish Principles Misrepresent Let 's have then your Reason why the Holy Scriptures are not generally allow'd to the Vulgar of your Church without exception Represent 'T is that there may not be as many different Bibles amongst them as there are Heads and that they may have something better than an Imagination to build their Salvation on Misrepresent This is all Paradox Why have the Protestants here in England as many different Bibles as Heads They all read the Bible and yet 't is but one and the same in all their hands Represent As to what 's in their Hands you are in the right But see what 's in their Heads A little consideration will convince you that what you call a Paradox is nothing less than a Plain Truth And that in reality there are as many Words of God amongst them as Heads I gave you a hint in our last discourse That tho' the Book of the Scriptures do's certainly contain the Word of God yet to every Christian that reads it 't is the sense and meaning and not the Letter is more properly the Word of God for their instruction and direction Now do you but reflect in how many different senses the Letter of the Bible is understood and so many different Bibles will you find multiplyed by your followers And tell me upon examination whether this be much fewer than Heads Misrepresent This is still mysterious Represent Every thing is so to you which is not for your purpose Tell me How do your people benefit by the Scriptures is it by laying the Bible upon their Heads and so understanding it Or is it by the Sense and meaning in which they understand it If it be by the sense and meaning then just that is the Bible to every one as the sense is in which they conceive it And if you can't apprehend this without longer explications follow my directions and you shall find it as evident as demonstration Provide your self well of Pen Ink and Paper and having done this invite the first of your Congregation you meet and if he be at leisure desire him to give you an account of the sense in which he understands the Scripture Write you it down all at length as he delivers it And having finish'd with him go to another and do the like Then to a third so to a fourth and fifth c. Still laying by every one's volume by it self And when you have gone as far as you think enough for your satisfaction compare your Writings together see how they agree and remember that as different as you find them in the Doctrine of Christ in the Mysteries of Faith in the commands of the Apostles c. So many different Words of God have you And as different as they are in your Papers just so are they in the Heads of those who directed your Pen Your Papers being nothing but a Transcript or Copy of such conceptions as are laid up in their Heads for the express Doctrine of Christ and unquestionable Word of God. Misrepresent This is a pretty Chimoera I confess 'T is much cheaper taking your explication than making the experiment Represent Well but what do you say to it If you will not take the trouble imagine it within your self and suppose it done by the Pens of ten thousand Angels Don't you think there wou'd be a pretty variety of Bibles There wou'd be This Man's Bible and That man's Bible Such an one's Bible and Such an one's Bible infinite numbers of Bibles Misrepresent You make a droll of these sacred matters Why these wou'd not be Bibles nor different Words of God but so many different Conceptions of the same Word of God. Represent 'T is you make the Droll and I expose it to your shame You think then these Transcripts would not be Bibles nor so many words of God and you are in the right for they wou'd be only so many Imaginations of theirs that frame them But why do you delude the poor people in this manner putting the Bible into their hands and perswading them they are guided by the Scriptures and the Word of God whenas when you come to see what it is they steer by you dare not own it for the Word of God but their own imaginations it being not the Book as it is in their Hands they are directed by but as it is in their Heads And to convince you agen by a farther experiment how far it is as it lies there from being the Word of God take but those suppos'd Copies we spoke of just now and carry them to any Licenser of your own to examine in order to be Printed and Publish'd for the Word of God and Rule of Faith and see whether you can find any will set them forward with an Imprimatar And if it be absurd even to suppose you could What an Unchristian Imposture is it to let so many poor Souls go on with a secure confidence of following the Word of God and building their Salvation on it when what they really follow and build on is so far from being what they imagine that if expos'd to public 't would pass for no better than some Religious Imaginations or Pious Dreams 'T is then for the avoiding these Inconveniencies the Vulgar amongst us are not generally allow'd the Bible Our Church takes care to put the same Word of God into their Heads and Hearts by instructing them all in its Doctrin as it has been deliver'd down and practis'd in the Catholic Church in all Ages since the Apostles Your Church puts the same Bible into the Hands of your Vulgar but for their Heads and Hearts it leaves them to take their venture and here lies the difference between us Misrepresent Stop a little Have you receiv'd your Answer from your Lay-Friend He pinches closely Represent I fear he 's too much your Friend to be much Mine or his own I cannot but suspect him since he pretends so great zeal for Truth and brings so much Gall and Passion along with him to conduct him to it His open Profession p. 10 where he says I must tell my Mind freely for I have vow'd to follow Truth and Charity wherever thâ—y lead me And then his Resolate consession in the very next Page where he thus declares Thus much I le confess That I desire to live no longer than I can if not speak yet love and admire the Church of England 's sense is a plain argument to me he is one of your acquaintance and that 't is not to be
others Invisibly profess'd others travel a great way to find it and return back with a May be and it may be 't was under the Rubbish And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Mans Reply He 's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point Where he shall find him p. 18. 25. he there concludes them all to be but Triflers and that there 's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther Since being now upon the Search to what Church or Communion one was to have applyed himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ they generally agree there was such a Church in the World but some send us to Armenia for it some to Greece some to the Hussites some to an Invisible Corner some to a Cloud some to look under the Rubbish What can a Man call this but in the Plain Man's phrase Trifling And yet Plain as he is he stands fair for this same Title of Honour he has so bountifully bestow'd upon others For as others so He tells us p. 10. that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World but that it shall always have somewhere or other some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation I enquire Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation He assures me They were certainly in the World some where or other Great satisfaction to an Enquirer Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town as as 't is in the Plain Mans Reply p. 19. and do ask the next Man I meet which is the right way He tells me 't is a very Cross-Road to find and I may easily miss it But saith he tho' I cannot direct you my self yet there is a Man lives in that Village who knows every step so exactly that if you take him for your Guide you cannot possibly be mistaken Pray say I at what House do's this Honest Man live How may I come to the speech of him Nay saith he I know nothing of all that but you must find him as you can Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer What an admirable Direction would this prove Is this any thing but Trifling This is just our Case I am enquiring to find out the True Protestant Church before Luther All assure me 't was certainly in the World but when I come to ask Where the Plain Man's Reply is Some where or other Misrepr Tho' they don't agree where 't was just before Luther Yet all agree 't was generally profess'd by the Primitive Christians Represent Then I see we must despair of finding it the thousand Years before Luther And what was the Primitive Church we 'l enquire in our next Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times Represent WE are now to enquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church and see whether that was Protestant or Catholic But we must first know how many Years or Ages you 'l allow us to look into that is how long you say the True Pretestant Religion as now establish'd was profess'd and practis'd Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days before corruption crept in upon it Setle this Point and then we 'll proceed Misrepresent If you are in good earnest He give you some account of this The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversie lately publish'd says p. 15. For Authority We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church the Three First Ages after the Apostles So that I presume by him the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd to the year of Christ 400. Calvin Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continu'd in the Doctrine of the Apostles that is Protestant in the time of Cyprian Jerom Austin the last of whom liv'd till the year 430. Agen in the Discourse entitled Papists not Mis-represented by Protestants 'tis said p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remain'd Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils the last of which being that of Chalcedon establish'd in England by Act of Parliament An. 1 Eliz. was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church for the first four hundred and fifty years for so long I question not the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd and practis'd and that Religion as then practis'd is the same as now establish'd by Law here in England and 't is a shame You and Yours shou'd so declaim against it Represent Pardon me here for I profess my self to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church that I resolve to believe as that believ'd and if it appears that That Church was the Protestant Church I le e'en be Protestant to morrow But let us go on upon our Enquiry You say you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd in the Primitive Times for the First Four hundred and fifty years For your satisfaction and mine we 'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then profess'd And that we may proceed with more security and certainty we 'll not descend at present so low as you allow but look at it as 't was practis'd in the time of Constantine the Great who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time because This was the First 〈◊〉 that gave liberty for the Publick Profession of Christianity and establish'd it by Law. 'T was under him all those Pious Learned and Holy Men first appear'd wâ—o till then had been confin'd by cruel Persâ—câ—â—ors to Caves Rocks and Wildernesses 'T was under him the First General Council of Niâ—e was held which we all venerate and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical Misrepresent I approve the circumstances For if ever Christianity was Pure and Vncorrupt it must certainly be then when it first shew'd it self to the world and rais'd up its Head from under Perfecution And now you put me in mind of it Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Proteâ—tant Relition in old times Answ 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Profess'd Represent Ee'n the Fathers or Professors that then liv'd
Profess'd with as little Control or Contradiction as t is at this Day in Italy or Spain I am sure if you should be told of any Neighbour of yours in this City that in his Devotions desires the Prayers of the Saints in Heaven Prays for the Souls of the Faithful Departed keeps Anniversary Days Signs his Forehead with the Sign of the Cross uses Exercisms Oyl Breathing and other Ceremonies in Baptizing his Children c. you would presently cry out A Papist A Papist And if you Censure such an one for a Papist now how can you perswade me the Primitive Christians were Protestants whom we have found Professing such Doctrines and Practices If it be Popery now to do so how was it Protestantism then Either you must make them Protestants that Teach those things at this Day amongst us or else they were none who Taught and Practis'd them heretofore Come I le ask you one Question Had you liv'd in those Days of the Primitive Church would you have Communicated or joyn'd with those Priests and Numerous People who after the Decease of Constantine were Praying round the Hearse for the Soul of the Emperour as 't is related by Eusebius de Vit. Const lib. 4 cap. 71 If you would not I conclude Those Priests and People were none of Your Church that is no Protestants And yet while you would have stood out then as Recusant I am confident such as at this Day Pray for the Soul of Charles 2. would then have Pray'd for Constantine's had they been then Living And These are such as you call Papists By which my Reason informs me That if â—le be a Christian as Christians were in the Primitive Church I must be no Protestant but a Papist since the Protestants of our Days would no more have joyn'd with the Christians of those Times than they do now with the Papists Misrepres You triumph now as if you had gotâ—a Victory and yet you have hiâ—herto done just nothing All your Proofs end in nothing but some Particular Instances and so I confess you have shewn some Private Doctors some Particular Men to have been acknowledg'd as infected with Popery in those Primitive Times by our Centuriators and other Protestant Divines But what 's all this to the Primitive Church Some Private Doctors and Opiniators might then be Papists 't is true but the Church was nevertheless Protestant Examine the Four First General Councils which were at that Time the Church Representative and you 'l see nothing Decreed by them but what We hold as Protestaâ—ts Repres You are for having me take all upon trust And tho' you cry out against Pinning Faith upon Sleeves yet I see if I don't pin my Faith upon your Sleeve I shall never be Protestant You Preach to me I must be guided by Reason and 't is not enough to Say the Primitive Church was Protestant but you must Prove it too if you 'l convince my Reason For my part by the Progress we have hitherto made I think I have Reason to think that not only some Private Men but that the Whole Church was then Popish as you call it For let us but reflect a little Who were These Men who by your Modern Protestants are accus'd of Popish Doctrines in those Times of Constantine and the Two Following Ages and we shall find they were the most Eminent the mosh Learned the most Exemplar and Best Men of their Times they were S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Athanasius S. Ambrose S. Gregory Nazianzen Nyssen S. Basil S. Hilary S. Cyril S. Paulinus S. Epiphanius c. These were the Men who living in those Primitive Ages of the Church are condemn'd and rejected by Modern Protestants for holding and maintaining Popish Doctrines These are they who are charg'd with Popery by the Centuriators by Osiander Chemnitius Melancthon Bullinger Beza Whitaker Humfrey Covel Whitgift Abbot Morton Fulk Trig Cartwright Field Hooker c. Now I need not ask here being upon Enquiry into the Faith of the Primitive Church whether Those Ancient Fathers cannot in all likelihood better inform me what was the Faith and Doctrine of the Church of their Times than other Modern Teachers who had not a Being in the World till Twelve or Thirteen Hundred Years after But I may consider with my self whether it be not most agreeable to Reason to think since such Eminent and Vertuous Men and Prelates as just now recited are accus'd of Popery that not only some Private Persons in those Primitive Times but that the Whole Church was then Popish I am assur'd by all Antiquity that these Persons that stand thus Indicted Govern'd the Primitive Church were Bishops Pastors and the most Exemplary of their Age the People or Flock were Instructed and Taught by them So that such Doctrines as they then Publish'd in their Writings and Preach'd to the People without Censure or Reproof I cannot look on as a Private or Closet-Concern but as the Public and Receiv'd Doctrine of their Times and that in the Sermons and Works of the Pastors is seen the Belief of the Flock And this will oblige me to conclude that Such Doctrines and Practices of which these Ancient Fathers and Doctors stand charg'd by Moderns was not the Doctrine of Private Men but of the Whole Church of their Times It being not at all probable to think while the Pastors are thus generally condemn'd for Papists that the People should be Protestants I demand of you Whether the Writings and Books of Protestant Prelates Doctors and Divines Publish'd under Edward 6. and Queen Elizabeth be not an Argument that besides shewing their Private Sentiments will prove likewise the Doctrine and Belief of Their Church and that whosoever quarrels with them for their Protestant Negatives and Dissenting from the Church of Rome do's not in the same Breath condemn their Whole Church of which they were Rulers and Overseers If so have not I equal Grounds to believe that the Concurring Sentiments of the Primitive Fathers was the Sense of the Primitive Church and that the accusing them of Popish Doctrines and Principles is a Condemnation of their Whole Church over which God had plac'd them Prelates Pastors and Teachers So that by all my Reason can discover yet if I am to be of the Religion of the Primitive Times I am to be no Protestant but continue as I am a Papist and if I were not so this your Appealing to the Primitive Church and our Search into it would e'en oblige me to renounce Your Communion who only make a Noise of the Primitive Church and are nothing like it but are as much for Reforming that as you did the Church of Henry 8. Misrepres Leave these Private Doctors and Fathers and look but into the First Four General Councils and you 'l soon discover that the Church of those Primitive Christians was nothing else but Protestant Repres I find too much of the Pope in those Councils to think they were Protestants The Pope Presides
Time of the First Four General Councils for Teaching and Believing many Points which are of late rejected sor Superstitions of Popery and Inventions of Men Such as attributing Primacy to the See of Rome Tradition Invocation of Saints Honouring the Relicks of Martyrs Prayer for the Dead the Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation c. These and many other such Doctrines Modern Protestants own to have been Taught by the Fathers of the Primitive Church in the Time of the First Councils And now I ask of you Whether the Prelates there assembled did by Canons or Decrees make any Provision against these Doctrines Misrepres I confess I don't find any Canons they made upon this matter Respres How can I believe then that the Reverend Bishops and Divines of those Councils were Protestants You are not ignorant how ill these Doctrines suit with the Protestant Temper You know They look upon the Intercession of Saints as injurious to the Mediation of Christ and Idolatrous The Pope's Primacy is with them an Antichristian Usurpation Honouring Relicks is Superstitious Praying for the Dead an Idle Devotion The Belief of Transubstantiation Unreasonable The Mass an Evacuating of the Sacrifice of the Cross Now can you perswade me that the Fathers of those First Councils could be Protestants and yet let these Doctrines and Practices so Detestable as they must be in their Opinion pass without any Condemnation and Uncensur'd No certainly The Fathers of those Times were more Zealous than so They were Watchful against all Novel Opinions such as were contrary to the Receiv'd Doctrine of the Church and there were no sooner any started tho' in Parts remote from them but they presently took the Alarm and by Writing Preaching Disputing Synods National and Oecumenical did make a most Vigorous Opposition and withstand them And such as continu'd Obstimate in their Errors with Endeavours of drawing Numbers after them and Disturbing the Peace of the Church seldom or never escap'd without the Mark of Heresie or Schism When I consider this State of the Primitive Church happily Flourishing under the Conduct and Care of so many Eminent Prelates and Pastors no less Zealous in Defending their Charge from the Assaults of Innovators and Vpstart Opinions than in Preserving Them in the Receiv'd Doctrines from the Apostles I cannot imagine how to Condemn them assembled in Full Council of such Gross Stupidity or Inexcusable Connivance as they must of necessity be guilty of in passing over so Considerable an Evil which had then overspread the greatest part of the Church And yet if I am to take Them for Protestants they of necessity fall under these Censures in not Reproving or Condemning those Popish Doctrines which as we are assur'd from Modern Protestants in the Times of those Councils had prevail'd upon such great Numbers of the Christian World. And Therefore since as you confess They made no Provision by Decrees or Canone against those Doctrines I am throughly perswaded They were no Protestants Misrepres Then I le warrant you you take them all for Good Papists Repres I must take 'em for Papists or Nothing For I am confident none but Papists could see so much Popery Taught and Practis'd as We have seen from Eusebius and Others under Constantine and in the Time of the First Four Councils and yet pass it by in Silence without Censure or Reproof Your Friend therefore who tells the World that the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally Profess'd would do well to Explicate to the Curious what kind of Protestancy that was heretofore which did agree so well with So much Popery If he do's not clear this Point well many others I believe besides my self will begin to suspect that the Fathers and Prelates assembled in those First Councils of the Primitive Church were rather Papists than Protestants Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessions of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformation disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming Misrepresenter I HAVE a Scruple this Morning that I have given you too much room to look for the Protestant Religion in the Primitive Times If I had Confin'd your Search within a Narrower compass of years you had discover'd more Protestancy and less Popery Repris I have not taken in more Years than you agreed to nor more than are generally allow'd by Protestants You know 't is the Bulwark of the Pretended Reformers to make their Appeal to the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church They acknowledge their Separation from the Church of Rome as it was in the Time of their Reformation and they justifie themselves for so doing because the Church of Rome as they pretend had faln from the Purity of Doctrine profess'd by the Primitive Church into Gross Errors Superstition and Idolatry And therefore since the Church of Rome would not Reform it self 't was necessary They should Separate from it so to Reform the Abuses and Corruptions that had crept in upon Christianity and bring it back to that State of Purity in which it had been practis'd by their Forefathers of the Primitive Church Misrepres Yes this is the True Reason of the Protestants Separating themselves from the Church of Rome and therefore I don't doubt but the Religion as here Establish'd amongst us by Law is the same as was heretofore Generally profess'd by the Primitive Church But the Question is How many Years the Primitive Church continu'd Pure and Uncorrupt that is Protestant as we are at this Day For I see you have look'd back into some Ages Past which I took for Protestant and there has appear'd then so much Popery publickly Exercis'd and Profess'd that I have some reason to suspect that the Christians of those Times were rather Papists than Protestants and that you have been something insincere in this Point and not made your Enquiry so far back as you ought Repres 'T is your Interest rather to suspect Me than the Weakness of Your own Cause But tell me How many Years did you allow me wherein to search for the Protestant Religion in the Past Ages of the Primitive Church Misrepres I gave you the Compass of the first Five hundred Years after Christ And in this I a am sure there was no Mistake of mine For Our Dr. Morton says Prot. Ap. p. 354. that It has been the Constant Prosession of Protestants to stand to the Judgment of Antiquity for the continuance of the First Four hundred Years and more in all things And ib. 573. be says that Protestants are so far from suffering the limitation of the First 440 Years that they give the Romanists the Scope of the First Five or Six hundred Years Bishop Jewel too our Champion and Apologist makes his Challenge
in his Sermon at Paul's Cross to all his Learned Adversaries the Papists to bring against the Protestant Doctrine any one sufficient Sentence out of any One Catholic Doctor or Father for the Space of Six hundred Years after Christ and he is content to yield Whitaker renews the same Challenge Resp ad rat Camp. p. 90. provoking the Papists to the first Six hundred Years and if they can produce any one Father or Council against the Protestant Articles he grants the Victory It is the Offer of us all says he the same do we all promise and we will perform it So that as far as I see I have not exceeded the Protestant Bounds Repres Neither have I in our Enquiry pass'd these Limits Our Search has been restrain'd within the Compass of the First Six hundred Years and the whole System of Popery I have laid before you has been the Belief and Practice of the Christians of those Times And this will oblige you to consider what Grounds you have to trust to for the Support of the Pretended Reformation whilst you see some eminent Protestants Appealing to the Primitive Church of the First Six hundred Years and Challenging the Papists to produce any One Doctor in favour of Popery within that Compass and yet other Protestants at the same time are charging the most Learned and Eminent Fathers of those Ages as Abbettors of Popery and reprove them for being infected with Popish Doctrines Misrepres This you have been often Saying but I must see it Prov'd Repres Do you keep then in your Mind the Challenge of Bishop Jewel above mention'd wherein he provokes the Papists to shew One Father holding against the Protestant Doctrine in the First Six hundred years and bidding them Defiance upon this Trial the like of Whitaker and others and I le let you see the Concessions of some other Protestants upon the same Subject But have Patience then 1. For the allowing Vows of Perpetual Chastity and affirming them to be Obligatory S. Basil Ambrose Chrysostome Epiphanius and S. Austin are reprov'd by Chemnitius Exam. p. 3. p. 41 42. And the General Council of Chalcedon is confess'd to have forbidden Marriage to Monks and Nuns by Just Molit de Eccl. Milit. p. 80. 2. As touching the Sacrament Chrysostom is thought to confirm Transubstantiation Centur. 5. col 517. Eusebius Emissenus did speak unprofitably of Transubstantiation Cent. 4. col 985. In Cyprian are many Sayings which seem to affirm Transubstantiation Ursin Commen p. 211. 3. As concerning Sacrifice it is affirm'd by Learned Protestants that the Ancient Fathers viz. Athanasius Ambrose Austin c. err'd herein So Calvin and Dr. Field who say of them that they made a Sacrifice of the Lords Supper The Centurists likewise affirm of Cyprian that his Judgment in this Point is Superstitious Cent. 3. col 83. That the Writings of Irenaeus and Ignatius are herein incommodious and dangerous Cent. 2. c. 4. col 55. And that presently after the Apostles Times the Supper of our Lord was turn'd into a Sacrifice sebas Franc. in Ep. de Abrog 4. Concerning Prayer for the Dead It was general in the Church lorg before the Days of Austin as appears in Cyprian and Tertullian So Mr. G. Gifford in his Demonst p. 38. Mr. Fulk likewise acknowledges that Tertullian Cyprian Austin Jerome and a great many more do witness that Sacrifice for the Dead is the Tradition of the Apostles Consut of Purg. p. 362. That Prayer and Alms were made for the Dead almost from the very beginning of the Church Bucer in Enar. 4. Evang. in Mat. c. 12. 5. Concerning Merit of Works Dr. Humfrey says It may not be deny'd but that Ireuaeus Clement and others who are call'd Apostolical Men have in their Writings the Opinions of Free-will and Merit of Works Jesuitism par 2. p. 530. Origen and Chrysostome are affirm'd by the Centuriators to have handled impurely the Doctrine of Justification and that they attribute Merit to Works Cent. 3. col 265. and Cent. 5. col 1178. And not only Cyprian but almost all the Holy Fathers of that Time were in that Error as thinking so to pay the Pain due to Sin and to satisfie Gods Justice Whitak in Resp ad Rat. Camp. Rat. 5. 6. Concerning Invocation of Saints The Lord Archbishop of Cant. Discoursing of Doctrines taught in any Age since the Apostles Times affirms without any Exception of Age or Father That almost all the Bishops and Writers of the Grâ—ek Church and Latin also for the most part were spotted with Doctrines of Free-will Merit Invocation of Saints c. Whitgift Def. ag Rep. of Cartw. p. 473. Mr. Fulk likewise says I confess that Ambrose Austin and Jerome held Invocation of Saints to be lawful Rejoyn to Brist p. 5. S Cyprian is charg'd by the Cent. to maintain That Martyrs and Saints departed pray for the Living Cent. 3. col 84. Origen likewise with Prayer for himself to Holy Job and Invocation of Angels Cent. 3 col 83. and col 75. The same Centurists affirm moreover That there are manifest Steps of Invocation of Saints in the Doctors of that Ancient Age. Cent. 3. c. 4. col 83. 7. Concerning Confession and Absolution The Centurists confess That even in those Times of Cyprian and Tertullian was us'd Private Confession and that the same was then commanded and thought necessary Cent. 3 c. 6. col 127. That also Penance or Satisfaction was enjoyn'd according to the Offence Ib. And likewise that the Priest when the Confession was made and Penance enjoyn'd did afterwards Absolve the Penitent with the Ceremony of Impâ—sing his Hand Cent. ib. 8. Concerning the Primacy of Peter above the other Apostles the Ancient Fathers of the Church viz. Jerome Hilary Nazianzen Tertullian Cyprian Origen are reprehended by the Protestant Centurists viz. for affirming the Church to be built upon Peter Cent. 4. col 1215 555 558 c. The same Centurists reprove S. Cyprian for teaching say they without any foundation of Scripture that the Roman Church ought to be acknowledg'd of all other for the Mâ—ther and Root of the Catholic Church Cent. 3. col 84. In like manner Irenaeus who as Hamelmannus says might yet remember the Apostles own lively Preaching is condemn'd by the Centurists for his affirming That all the Churches ought to accord to the Roman Church in regard of a more powerful Principality for which words they charge him with a corrupt Saying concerning the Primacy of the Roman Church Cent. 2. Alph. Tab. word Irenaeus And this Authority of the B. of Rome D. Philip Nicolai referreth for its beginning to the Infirmity of the Apostles and of the first succeeding Bishops of Rome in Comment de Reg. Christ p. 221. With whom concurs Mr. Middleton in his Papist Mast p. 193. No marvail therefore says he tho' perusing Councils Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward we find the Print of the Popes Feet For these and all other Points of Catholic Doctrine the
currant Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers are so certain and evident that many Learned Protestants upon this Consideration refuse to stand the Test of their Authorities thinking it far more advantageous to their Cause to give them a general Disclaim Hence Mr. Whitaker affirms the Popish Religion to be patcht up out of the Fathers Errors Cont. Dur l. 6. p. 423. And Dr. Humfrey most severely reprehends Mr. Jewel for his so bold Appeal to the Primitive Fathers affirming that herein Mr. Jewel gave the Papists too large a scope was injurious to himself and after a manner spoil'd himself and the Church Misrepres So then I see you intend to claim the Fathers not only of Constantine 's Time and the Following Ages as Abettors of Popery but likewise Those who in the First Centuries immediately succeeded the Apostles And what Room then do you leave for Protestancy Repres 'T is not only I that claim Them but even the Protestants themselves you see of the precedent Age such who were not asham'd to speak the Truth make a surrender of them laying aside all Pretensions either to Them or their Doctrine And when they have disown'd all the Fathers one by one from Clement Ignatius Irenaeus who liv'd in the Apostles Days and succeeded them in their Function to S. Jerome Austin Leo Gregory the last of which surviv'd the Fifth Century when they have declar'd that Antichrist began his Reign and obscur'd the Light of the Gospel even from the Time of the Apostles I wonder what Room as you say there 's left for Protestancy It savours something of a Mystery methinks call'd Nonsense to say the Protestant Religion is the same Pure Religion as was Anciently and Generally Profess'd amongst the Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church and then to condemn the same Fathers and Christians of the Primitive Church for being infected with Popery and giving way to Antichrist Wherefore to avoid these Inconveniences if you 'l take my Advice Misrepresenter I believe you had better pretend no longer Right to the Primitive Fathers but as you have condemn'd the Eight hundred Years next before the Reformation of Damnable Errors and Popish Superstitions to take one step further back and e'en take in the other Six hundred Years too and so condemn them all in the lump from Christ's Time to Luther for being Papists and Popishly affected Never Mince the matter They were all Men you know and subject to Error and when you are once in 't is as easily condemning your Fore-fathers for Fourteen Ages as for Eight Your First Reforming-Apostles were something of this mind and thought it no more difficulty to Censure and Condemn the Primitive Fathers than Those they found in the time of K. Henry 8. but were for Reforming all with the same Hand Hearken a little to your courageous Luther In the Writings says he of Jerome there is not a word of True Faith in Christ and Sound Religion Tertullian is very Superstitious I have held Origen long since Accursed of Chrysostome I make no account Basil is of no worth he is wholly a Monk I value him not of a Hair Cyprian is a Weak Divine The Apology of Philip Melancthon far excels all the Dostors of the Church and exceeds even Austin himself Coll. Mens c. de Patr. Eccles And in another place The Fathers says he of so many Ages have been plainly Blind and most Ignorant in the Scriptures They err'd all their Life-time and unless they were mended before their Deaths they were neither Saints nor pertaining to God's Church To. 2. l. de Serv. Arbit Peter Martyr is of the same mind and therefore says plainly That as long as we stand to Councils and Fathers we shall always remain infected with the same Errors viz. of Popery And certainly Misrepresenter these Your First Setters up for Reformation were in the Right on 't for nothing can possibly so strengthen Protestancy and justifie the Separation as this Levelling Divinity For your Going by halves and pretending to be of the Religion of the First Ages of the Church fills People with Doubts and Scruples whilst looking back upon the Professors of those Times instead of Protestancy they find so much Popery amongst them Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XVI A New Way of making all the Popish Sayings of the Primitive Fathers to be Good Protestancy The Art of Interpreting do's Feats it makes way for Atheism and Infidelity Represent HOW stands your Head to day Misrepresenter have you Consider'd the Proposal I made you at our last Meeting Are you for disclaiming all Title to the Primitive Church and Huffing those Ancient Fathers as Luther Peter Martyr and others did who designing a Through-Reformation were alike for calling those Great Doctors to an account of the First Ages as they did those they found in the Time of King Henry 8 Or are you for Reforming upon These First Reformers and taking in those Primitive Fathers of the Church for Protestants which They cast off and Condemn'd for Papists Misrepres I have Consider'd this Matter very seriously and taken the Advice of Friends upon the Point And therefore to be short with you I value no more the Saying of Luther than he did Those Ancient Fathers whom he condemn'd as Weak Divines Superstitious and Valu'd not of a Hair. He was so near the Times of Darkness that he could not well look back and make Judgment of any thing behind him Repres Nay I commend you in this 't is only just to serve him in his kind 'T was Tertullian's Saying Curâ—â—nm idem licet Marcionitis quod Marcioni If Marcion has rebell'd against the Church why should his Followers think much to rebel against him And since Luther cast off all Authority and valu'd not the Writings and Doctrine of the most Eminent Fathers of the Primitive Church why shou'd any one think much of undervaluing him by his own Example If Luther could so easily throw by S. Cyprian for a Weak Divine and S. Basil for being wholly a Monk is not this Precedent enough for any Follower of Luther to cast him off for an Apostate Friar and an Ambitious Divine Well but if you Reform upon Luther in this Point and don 't think fit with him to lay aside all the Writings of the Ancient Fathers as Erroneous and Superstitious what do you do with all those troublesome Passages in their Works wherein They are such Positive Asserters of Popish Doctrines that 't is impossible for any Man to take the Authors for any thing but Papists which do's not well suit with your Claim to them as Protestants Misrepres Pish I value no more these Difficulties than Luther did the Fathers that is not of a Hair. If the First Reformers bad their Eyes but half open what 's that to us who have the Noon-light of the Gospel shining upon us