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doctrine_n	church_n	faith_n	unity_n	4,187	5	9.2413	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88105	Light for smoke: or, A cleare and distinct reply by Iohn Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster, to a darke and confused answer in a booke made, and intituled The smoke in the temple, by Iohn Saltmarsh, late preacher at Brasteed in Kent, now revolted both from his pastorall calling and charge. Whereto is added, Novello-mastix, or a scourge for a scurrilous news-monger.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.; C. D. Novello-mastix.	1646 (1646)	Wing L1883; Thomason E333_2; Thomason E333_3; ESTC R200742	90,377	128

you differ much from Salmasius for he takes it literally e Smoke Ibid. pag. 13. you figuratively Thirdly For the scope Salmasius his ayme in what he said of the manner of Baptisme and other Rites was to shew the diversitie of them and various use of them for confutation of the superstitions of Papists but you bring it in to plead for the presumption and countenance the continuacy of Antipopish Sectaries Your other Testimony you bring in thus Salmasius his Testimony against the present Presbyteriall way You might have added as you English it afterwards for the Independency of Churches If he write for Independency of Churches against the Presbyteriall way he is an Independent and then I may retort the Testimony upon you and make the Title thus The Testimony of Salmasius 〈◊〉 Independent for the The Presbyteriall way against Independency For I can bring as good evidence for the Presbyteriall way out of Salmasius as you can doe against it and yet is not Salmasius a f That Mr. Saltm may not thinke me too youthfull in bringing in this paranomasie and so with an affected gravitie take upon him to reprove me for it I will present him with some examples of paranomasies in the Hebrew of the old Testament as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God shall enlarge or perswade Japhet Gen. 9.27 and in that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dan shall iudge his people Gen. 49.16 and in that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nabal is his name and folly is with him 1 Sam. 25.25 and in the Greeke of the New Testament as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rom. 1. vers 29.31 and in the Fathers as in Augustine who speaking of Faustus the Manichee saith thus Legent qui volunt invenient aut falli imprudenter aut fallere impudenter Aug. contr Faust Manich. lib. 22. cap 32. and in another place Nihil opus est ut e● cum discrimine definiantur quae sinc crimine nesciuntur Aug. de Trin. lib. 8. cap. 5. Saltmarshius mutable in his Tenets unconstant and contradictory to himselfe as you are His words that seeme to make for you you ●●t down first in Latine which you so cite as he that taketh you for a faithfull Scribe must take him for a very poore Scholler and ignorant of Grammer who is acknowledged by competent Iudges of his abilities abundantly witnessed in works to be a man eminently furnished with all kinde of knowledge for in fourteene lines you set down no fewer then seventeene errours which must imply either grosse ignorance or supine negligence in your selfe or in those whom you employed in the printing of your booke as he that diligently compareth his originall and your transcript will acknowledge and secondly in English thus g Duobus modis haec Independentia Ecclesiarum accipi potest si vel respectum non habeant ad viciu●s ullas Ecclesias aut si non pendeant ab authoritate aliquot Ecclesiarum simul in unam Classem vel Synodum conjunctarum cujus convent●● partem ipsae faciant prior modus similior reperitur primitivae Ecclesiae praxi consuetudini ac usui quo voluntaria haec communio inter Ecclesias fuit posterior magis convenit cum instituto quod postea juris humani dispositione introduction est Hoc pos teriore modo liberta● particularium Ecclesiarum magis imminuta videtur quam priore Sed quod ab initio fuerit voluntatis post●● facta● est juris Hoc jus sane positivum atque Ecclesiasticum humanumque 〈◊〉 divinum juris est quidem divini ut una sit Ecclesia Christi unita● autem eju● non gregalium aut concorpor●lium plurium adurata collectione consistit sed in 〈…〉 doctri●● un●●imi cons●nsion● Salmasius in apparatu ad libr. de Primat Papae pag. 265. 266. This Independency of Churches may be taken two wayes either as not having respect to any neighbour Churches or as not depending on the authoritie of some Churches that are ioyned in some Classes or Synod of which the Churches themselves may make a part The former way is found to be more like the practise custome and use of the Primitive Church whereby this voluntary communion was among the Churches The latter way doth more agree with the institution which afterwards was introduced by a humane authoritie By this latter way the libertie of particular Churches seemes to be lesse more you should say diminished then by the former But that which from the beginning was arbitrary afterwards is made necessary as a law This law truly is positive and Ecclesiasticall and humane not divine 'T is by a divine law that the Church of Christ should be one but the unitie of it doth not consist in the union or collection of many that are of the same flocke or body but in the unanimous consent agreement in faith and doctrine In this saying of Salmasius you have not a word against the lawfulnesse of the subordination of Churches in the Presbyteriall Government and that which sounds in favour of Independency is but this First That the States of Churches by themselves without respect or relation to any neighbour Churches are more like the practise custome and use of the Primitive Church where a voluntary communion was among the Churches He doth not say our Saviour did institute that Government nor that the Apostles gave any order for it nor that it was the same that was in the Primitive Church but that it was like the practise custome and use of the Primitive Church And so we say of Baptizing in rivers of receiving the Sacrament at night of the love feasts greetings with an holy kisse and communitie of goods and many other particulars but it will not follow that in our time and State it is better to Baptize in rivers then in Churches to receive the Sacrament at night then in the morning and to continue those love feasts and kisses of love which for the abuse of them were left off by the religious many hundred yeares agoe nor that communitie of goods is better then the proprietie of them as in the present age Secondly He saith The later way that is of union of Churches in Classes and Synods doth more agree with the institution which afterwards was introduced by humane authoritie To which I answer that the Institution of it might be before and the practise of it according to the Institution come in afterwards or if it were but instituted afterwards by humane authoritie it doth not follow that it was without much lesse against authoritie divine for he saith as you cite him it is by a divine law that the Church of Christ should be one if so it is a dictate of naturall prudence which is a beame of divine light though not an expresse and positive law of God that all just and fit meanes to preserve this union so farre as the State and condition of the Church and time will permit be made use of it and that is an union in Classicall and

diverse and we may bee friends though not Brethren If we be in one Christ I should rather say we are Brethren though not friends but if we be friends and in Christ we must needs be Brethren sonnes of the same Father and heires of the same hope and inheritance in heaven although not knowing or suspecting each others interest wee may bee more unfriendly among our selves then we should be And though you be lesse a Brother then you have been for as I heare you acknowleldged before the Honourable Committee of Examinations that you have renounced your Ordination the ground of your Ministeriall Brotherhood in the Church of England yet since you are pleased to call me both b So in the inscription of your Letter Friend and c In your Smoke p. 26. Brother I shall with much hearty sorrow to see your good parts so ill imployed as they are on the wrong side and my fervent prayers to the Father of lights to give you light for smoke to guide you into the way of Truth and Peace and to settle you in it sincerely subscribe my selfe Yours in the affections and offices of a friend and Brother JOHN LEY LIGHT FOR SMOKE OR A Cleare and distinct Reply to a darke and confused Answer of Mr. Iohn Saltmarsh c. SECT I. Of the Title Independent in what sence it is disclaimed in what acknoweldged and of subordination idenied by Mr. S. and puritie in the Church held necessary by him Smoke Pag. a In the former edition the answer to me beginneth a new order of figures so this quotation is p. 2. but in the second edition it is p. 12. 12. FOr the notion of Independencie you speake of I dare not owne it because I account my selfe both under a spirituall and civill supremacie under Jesus Christ and the Magistrate severally and exempt from neither Light Your pretended dependencie on the Magistracie will not exempt you from the name or notion of Independencie a title diversly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party while some own and honour it some disclaime and abhor it b Mien Exam of the New Quere p. 2. as I have formerly shewed for you give the Magistrate so little power in matter of Religion that c Smoke p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of conscience science therein cnceiving that as d M. SAltm Epistle to the Beleevers of severall opinions p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London some travelling from the North some from the South some from the East and some from the West yet all come thither though there may be some mistaking of the way in each so is the gathering of the Saints into heaven Which if you meane of so many several Sects of beleevers as in this Booke and some other of your Pamphlets you plead for you meane it of some who are as farre out of the way to heaven as if a man at Lichfield should travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London or as if at Barwicke he should travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough Smoke Pag. 12. We dare not be Classicall Provinciall Nationall these are no formes of wholesome words to which we are commended nor know we any such power but that of Brethren Ministerie and Fellowship and if you call the Churches of Christ Independent for this we must suffer till the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noone-day Light The graduall subordination of Assemblies against the Independencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of Mr. Samuel Rutherford so that it is needlesse to take up their defence in this place at least with you who as I have observed your genius are not fit to be taken for an Antagonist in any Polemicall point And for that you say they are no formes of wholesome words it is no more then the Arians said of the words Trinitas Essentia Hemoeusios Persona because they found them not in the Scripture And if you were not swayed by a spirit of Libertinisme you would thinke them very wholsome words as signifying soveraigne remedies against the ruptures of Schisme and uleers or gangrenes of Heresie Smoke Pag. 12. Nor know we any such power but that of Brethren Ministers and Fellowship Light Doe you not know Sr. that that which is Ministerie and service in respect of God may be rulel and authoritie in respect of men are there not Officers in the Church called Elders and are not those Elders Rulers and those Elders and Rulers Fathers and is there not a spirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Gospel 1 Cor. 4.15 and must not these by the fifth Commandement be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood and Fellowship and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers and may not the father as the child gives him cause use both the rod and the spirit of meeknesse if not surely the Apostle would not have put this Question to the Corinthians Shall I come unto you with a rod or in love and in the spirit of meeknesse vers 21. of the same Chapter Smoke Pag. 12. And if you call the Churches of Christ Independent for this wee must suffer untill the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noon-day Light If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Christ I would call them Dependent for the most of them are subordinate to Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies not Independent as the fewest are and of those few some of them are so unsound in doctrine that they deserve not the title of Churches to be put upon them and if you professe your selfe Independent in that sence you have acknowledged and for that be so called I pray you Sr. what suffering doe you complaine of is it any suffering to you to be called by your Name Mr. Saltmarsh which you owne and foro the bringing forth of your righteousnesse as the noone day I must tell you Sr. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes discovery that all may see but those whose eyes are darkened with your Smoke that the unrighteousnesse of those Sectaries whom you embrace as Independent Brethren in broken forth as the smoke of the bottomlesse pit Revel 9.2 with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion SECT II. The Objection of unseasonablenesse of Mr. Saltm his Quare justified and his grosse mistake or wilfull falsification of my words detected Smoke Pag. 14. VVHat better season could I come in then such a one wherein things were but moving and ripening towards establishment where no thing is setled there nothing can be disturbed And whereas you say the Parliaments determinations were finall that holds better for me who might have spoken to much lesse purpose had I staid till and had beene done and the determinations ended and become finall sure it was a time then to speake or

Stews not in the Church but in the Citie it is not so broad nor loose I hope no more should it be so indulgent as to allow of inducements to spirituall whoredome 〈…〉 which is as dangerous to men and more dishonourable to God The Angel of the Church of Ephesus I am sure is commended by the Holy Ghost because he could not beare them which were evill Revel 2.2 and for h●ting the deeds of the Nicolaitans vers 6. as on the contrary the Angel of the Church of P●●ga●●● is blamed for suffering such as held the Doctrine of Bala●m and those that held the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans vers 12.14 15. and so is the Angel of the Church of Thyatir● for suffering the woman J●●●bal which ●●lleth her selfe a Prophetesse to teach and seduce the servants of the Lord vers 18.20 and if such seducement may be as dangerous to many where heretiques teach in corners as where they are admitted to officiate in publique Churches that must be no more endured then the other And for that you say of plucking up the tares before the harvest it makes nothing against the caution I meane which is not to extirpate all heretiques out of the world but to put such a restraint upon them that they may not have power to seduce simple soules to such pernicious errours as may endanger them upon eternall damnation and yet I hope you doe not meane but some wicked men may be so wicked and so destructive in their principles and practices to Religion and States that it may be lawfull not onely to keepe or put them out of all Church-Communion but to take them quite out of all communion in the world by capitall punishment else you will have the Civill Magistrate to beare the Sword for naught against the determination of the Apostle Rom. 13. SECT XXVI Mr. Saltm his dangerous supposition of equality of Number and power with diversitie of Religion of incorporation of two powers and what may be expected should the Sectaries prevaile Smoke Pag. 58. SVppose those you call hereticks and who as you say a little a Smoke p. 57. before thinke they have as good Scriptures to esteeme you so were of equall number to you and both of you equally numbred with Magistrates Light What cause or need in this difference betwixt you and me to take up such a terrible supposition as you make for there would have beene no ground of suspition if there had not been too much indulgence shewed to hereticall and schismaticall seducers and what doe you meane by supposing equalitie in number power and spirit for contestation about contrary opinions is it to make the Presbyterians beleeve that the partie they take to be hereticall is or is like to be so many and masterfull that they will not suffer the Church Government to be settled without clashing of swords and bloody doings Truly your courting of militarie men as you do and others solicitations of them and brags of their power and purpose may be a just ground of suspitiō of so bad an intention in some of your side which now plead for liberty of conscience that if they had might to their minds they would assert it with other instruments and would secure it with circumscription if not prescription of the Civill power as the King of Spaine did the liberty of election of the Emperour at Frankford against King Francis the first King of France his competitor for the Empire who sent thither an Army of 30000 men that the choosers might be free and not forced Guicciard whereby he so overawed them that they durst not make their choice but in the family of the house of Austria Smoke Pag. 58. This is an image of your Incorporation of your two powers that you so plead for in this kind Light Now truly Sr. you are a very sorry image-maker that draw your picture so imperfectly so grosly like the rude Painters of old who were fain to their mishapen pourtraitures to adde an Inscription this is a man and this is an horse or else a man could tell no more then a horse what the pictures resembled If you had not told your Reader this is an image of your Incorporation c. he would never have thought you meant any such thing by what you have said and now you have made your description and set your subscription to it it is yet so smokie and obscure that I doubt he cannot understand it I am sure I cannot perceive any truth or sence in it for what incorporation of powers doe we make and plead for you should have shewed what powers you meane what incorporation of them we make where and by what arguments we plead for it till you doe this I shall thinke your image a meere imagination and a fantasticall Chimera Smoke Pag. 58. If we were equally principled for persecution as you are and alled by your spirit ah what a Kingdome would here be Light What principles of persecution doe Presbyterians hold set which they have not warrant from the word of God all with you is persecution which in any sort opposeth your lavish toleration of all Religions though never so dishonourable to God and damnable to man the godly party in the time of the Prelates cried out upon pluralities and soule-murdering Non-residencie accounting it an high and hainous crime in those who withheld spirituall food from the soules of the people and held that the State was bound to doe them right to see them supplied with necessary provision for their salvation and is there not a soule murdering by poysoning the peoples soules with pernicious principles as well as by withholding from them found and salutary Doctrine and is not the State bound to provide against this spirituall perill as well as the other which if it may be done without drawing of a drop of blood it is so much more pleasing to consciencious Presbyterians as it is lesse grievous to hereticall seducers the wild beast may be kept and fedde within the grate and the Fox confined to the length of a chaine though they be not suffered to range abroad and make havock on the flock And how are they armed for persecution of their adversaries when they not onely live but thrive and flourish and are advanced to places of honour and trust all over the Kingdome If the Presbyterians were so spirited and so armed with power as you pretend how came the Independents to enjoy such a prosperous condition as they doe And for the persecution of the Tongue and Pen for there may be words as keene and cutting as very swords was there ever any so sharpe and bitter as theirs who pretending to hate and persecute persecution jeere and revile Presbyterie and Presbyters with so much virulence that all the scoffing Ishmaelites Lucians Martin Marprelates of which last a Josias Nichols in his Book called the Plea of the Innocent Iosias Nichols a godly Nonconformist said he was stirred up

Synodicall Assemblies Thirdly That by this later way that is the way of association and subordination in and to both Classes and Synods the libertie of particular Churches seemes to be more diminished where he speaketh cautelously saying it seemeth to be more diminished it may seeme and yet not be as it seemes but if the libertie be more diminished the safetie of it by that meanes is more assured and the authoritie of it the more strengthened while it governeth aright in that if the censures of it be slighted while they are just they will be ratified by the superiour Assembly and the contumacy of offenders the more kept down Fourthly That what from the beginning was Arbitrary afterward was made necessary as a law this law truly is Positive Ecclesiasticall and Humane not Divine It might be arbitrary from the beginning while there were few Christians for Churches few Churches for union and those perhaps not so situate that they could with convenience or safetie come under such a combination or subordination as was requisite for the Churches securitie against heresie and schisme but if after the beginning how long or little a while is hard to know it were thought so necessary as to be formed up into a law though it were not divine but humane positive and Ecclesiasticall and coming under no complaint for impietie against God or injury to man and withall conducing directly to such ends as but now I noted it is more for subordinate Presbytery then that which hath been alleadged for the Independency which you and your party so importunately plead for All this considered that you have produced in the name of Salmasius for the Independent and against the Presbyteriall way will doe you little good especially if it be known what he writeth against Independency of which since you silently smother it I will make some supply An expresse and cleare Testimony of Salmasius against Independency h Quod tamen nullo modo iis suffragatur qui censent unamquamque Ecclesiam habere potestatem Independentem nec probant plurium Ecclesiarum conjunctionem sub directione Classium ut vocant vel Synodorum paulo post Which notwithstanding makes nothing for them who thinke every Church hath an Independent power and approve not the uniting of many Churches under the direction of Classes or Synods And a little after he saith i Totalis inquit Indepenentia earum ab omni alia Ecclesia minime laudanda nec recipienda Salmal Apparat. ad lib. de Primat Pap. p. 265. Their totall Independency upon any other Church is neither worthy of praise nor of acceptation And again he saith k Si eo tempore cum Spiritus Christi Ecclesias per Apostolos suos regeret ac dirigeret non tamen eae Independentes fuere quanto minus nunc in hac Seculorum extrema colluvie cum tot haeresibus quasi loliis Zizaniis Ecclesia tota inquinata sit admitti oportet hanc Ecclesiarum singularum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 absolutam qua non debeant ad vicinos referre conventus cum nodus apud sc vi●dice dignus inciderit nec a concilio plurium Ecclesiarum simul junctarum ex viciniae commoditate gubernari sustineant Vnit●s omnium toto orbe dispersarum Ecclesiarum sub uno Pastore Christo in unam Doctrinam consentientium non potest constare absque communione nec communio absque communicatione communicatio autem nulla esse potest ubiom●●s inter se sunt Independentes Salmas Apparat. ad lib. de Primatu Papae p. 267. If the Churches were not Independent at that time when the Spirit of Christ by his Apostles ruled and governed them how much lesse in this last colluvies of ages when the whole Church is p●stered with so much cockle and tares of heresies should this absolute self-ruling of all Churches be admitted● according to which if they meet with a knotty difficultie they may not referre it to their neighbouring conventions nor will they be governed by an Assembly of divers Churches which vicinitie hath commodiously united The unitie of all the Churches dispersed through the world under one Shepherd Christ and consenting to one Doctrine cannot stand without communion nor that communion without communica●ation which can be none where all are Independent on each other And that this is the minde of Salmasius without imposing any thing upon him or wresting his words to any other sence then he in●ended as you doe I am assured by the Testimony of a godly and learned Divine of great integritie and reputation with those that know him who had conference with Salmasius in Holland while his Booke was at Presse and where counting the time of printing and accidentall pawses it l Prodit ecce tandem noster de Frimatu Papae Tractatus prima quidem tantum sui parte diu a multis expectat● quia diu sub praelo mor●s traxit ob varias Sonticas causas mode absentiae meae modo valetudinis interdum aliarum occupationum saepius interruptus Ante quinquenuium excudi coeptus hoc demum tempore lucem videt Salmas initio Epist Lect. praefix Apparat. ad lib. de Primatu Papae continued five yeares together and told me that his scope in that Booke was to oppose the extreames Popery on the one side and Independency on the other and to assert the middle and moderate way of Presbyteriall Government These two quotations out of Salmasius the one a little before the other the next page after the Testimony produced by you may give just cause of suspition that you meant to delude your Reader with a maimed allegation omitting what made against you by a fraudulent Apharesis and Apocope of the precedent and subsequent words unlesse it be more like that you never saw the Booke but had the Testimony sent you in some piece of paper which contained no more then you have made use of Which we may the rather beleeve because the mistakes were so many in Salmasius his Text as could hardly have been if you had taken your Testimony at the first hand FINIS