Why so Mark if his ground be not as I told you Because saith he I have believed the Gospel it selfe upon the preaching of the Catholiques Can he more clearly ground upon the Infallible Authority of their teaching then upon this to believe the Gospel it selfe He goeth on thus Again If you hold to the Gospel my hold shall still be on the Authority of that Church upon whose Authority I believed the Gospel I saith he will hold my self to those by whose teaching I have believed the Gospel and these commanding me I will not believe thee And Saint Austin goeth so far upon this Ground as a Ground Infallible that he saith If perhaps you Manichaeans can find me any clear place in the Gospel to prove that Apostleship of Manichaeus that then indeed they shall weaken the Authority of the Catholiques But what do you think will follow I pray note it well Their Authority being weakned and shewed once fallible now neither can I so much as believe the Gospel And why so Because upon the Authority of these Catholiques I had believed the Gospel The ground of his belief in the Gospel was their Infallible authority as not onely these but also the next words shew manifestly Wherefore saith he if in the Gospel there be found nothing that is evident to prove the Apostleship of Manichaeus then I will believe the Catholiques rather then You. But if You shall read me out of the Gospel something that is evident to prove Manichaeus an Apostle then I will neither believe the Catholiques nor thee Why so I will not believe the Catholiques because they whose Doctrine I thought Infallible have lyed to me concerning your Manichaeans But I will not believe thee even when thou citest clear Scripture for of this case he speaketh and why so Because thou dost cite me that â—cripture to which Scripture I had now believed upon their Authority who have lyed unto me Thus he Could he more clearly say that if once in one single Lye he should finde the Churches Authority to be fallible he should then have left unto him no Infallible Ground at all upon which he were to believe Scripture To deliver a Doctrine thus inculcated over and over again and thus still relying on this one Ground is far and very far from letting a word slip in heat of disputation And therefore to speak plainly my Adversary could not deal sincerely when he said If we considered the whole Chapter we should be of his minde for nothing can make us lesse of his minde then to consider the whole Chapter as I have faithfully done excepting one little parcel in the end which most strongly confirmes all I have said for it followeth but God forbid I should not believe the Gospel having so Infallible Authority for it as the Church is yet believing this Gospel I do not see how I can believe thee teaching me Manichaeus to be an Apostle for we know which Apostle it was who was chosen in the place of Judas the Traytor This we have read in the Acts of the Apostles And because the Manichaeans did not believe the Acts of the Apostles he addeth which Book of the Acts I must necessarily believe if I believe the Gospel And why Because the Catholique Authority doth in like manner commend both these Scriptures to me See here again most evidently he saith the Ground upon which he believeth the Acts of the Apostles as well as he believed the other Scriptures to be the self-same Catholique Authority which in one and the same manner commendeth both Scriptures to us to be believed Had he said that he believed this or any other Scripture for the Light he received by the reading of it by which he discovered it to be Canonical then the Manichaeans might as easily have said that by the like Light we clearly discover the Gospel of Manichaeus to be Canonical Thus I have given a large and most faithful account of this Chapter setting most of it down word for word And this last place as also many other quite overthrow what my Adversary saith that he spoke here of himself as now a Manichaean for you see he speaketh of himself as one believing the Acts of the Apostles and believing it by a necessary consequence because he hath already believed the other Canonical Books upon the same Authority of the Church And if upon this Authority I may with St. Austin believe the whole Scripture to be Gods Word from the beginning to the ending though it containeth so many strange Stories such a world of several points why may I not upon the same Infallible Authority believe Prayers to Saints Prayer for the dead and other like points Neither can it be said that St. Austin as my Adversary saith was settled in the belief of the Scripture for the authority of Scripture it self for I have given you his plain words to the contrary saying that the Authority of the Church being weakned he cannot now so much as believe the Gospel which he might still do if he believed it for it self and not merely for the Infallible Authority of the Church yea l. de Utilit Cred. cap. 14. he saith that his belief in Christ was grounded upon that Authority which certainly he must then needs hold for Infallible If he did thus and was never noted for singularity in his faith for doing thus why may not I prudently doe what he did Yea how can I poor simple creature not doe imprudently if I refuse to do what he did who understood the Scriptures as well as any man the Church had Having now shewed the Church to be the Judge appointed by Christ for all Controversies and that the Definition of this Judge is Infallible and consequently a sufficient ground for Faith I will now show that all this Doctrine must be applyed to the Roman Church and cannot be applyed to the Protestant Church For first this Protestant Church doth not so much as lay claim either to have any such Authority as being Judge in all Points of Controversie or to the having any infallible Authority If either of these belonged to her she would know her own right from which she now disclaims and so by her own doctrine she cannot be Judge or infallible for so as an Infallible Iudge she should judge her self to be fallible No more need to be said to exclude her or any other Church acknowledging by evident and infallible Scripture as they profess their own fallibility and that they are not Iudges in Controversies being infallibly fallible and so uncapable of these Priviledges as is Evident And even this might serve to exclude all other Churches but the Roman She onely claimeth as she is bound to do her due right to be Judge in all Controversies and her infallible authority to decide them with truth All other Churches of all other Religions doe say indeed that they are themselves the onely true Churches but none of them say themselves to be either
of singularity because it doth not follow the Catholique If then you will do prudently as you speak go with Saint Austin no further then he would have you follow him namely in the way of Scripture which he understood well and at the latter time of his life but whether he understood it as much as any the Church had which you say may be yet under debate with all respect to Saint Austin since it appears not that he had any skill in Hebrew and if I remember well confesseth that he learned Greek but late So then if in some cases your own Men confesse that we must have recourse to the Original Languages how could he understand them so well And now come we to your grand assumption that what hath been said of the Catholick Church that it is by Christ appointed to be the Judge of all Controversies and that the definition of this Judge is Infallible and consequently a sufficient ground of Faith all the Doctrine must be applyed to the Roman Church and cannot be applyed to the Protestant Church And now then you are pleased at the latter end to discover your selfe that you did intend at first the Roman Church but dealt more cunningly then the rest of the Pontificians who do include in the nature of the one and true Church subjection to the Bishop of Rome Methinks this plot of yours might be somewhat resembled by him who had that Phantasie that whatsoever Ship came to Port was his so now every Church must be yours or none as if the Roman Sea were the Ocean or you would have all the Honours that might be conferred by God upon that Church he would please to own signally and to make his conceiving that this Church can be none but your own And thus would you have led me on with some ingenuity to be liberal in my respects and devoirs to the Catholick Church that so you might without contradiction sweep all for the Roman Catholick But prove that those priviledges you speak of belong to the Roman Church and cannot be applyed to the Protestant Church You prove it thus First This Protestant Church doth not so much as lay claim to those priviledges and so by her own Doctrine she cannot be Judge or Infallible nor any other Church but the Roman upon the same reason because they professe themselves by evident and Infallible Scriptures their own Fallibility as you prove the consequence to be to the end of your Page of the 27. Number and therefore the Roman Church is the true Church unlesse Christ hath no true Chrch nor hath had these many ages This is your argument which proceeds by way of a negative induction not the Protestant Church nor this other Church nor that nor any other Church doth claim the priviledge of being Infallible Judge onely the Roman therefore otherwise Christ hath had no true Church these many Ages Sir Which will you give us leave to do to smile or weep that men not to be contemned for their Learning and Reading should be abused and should endevour to abuse others by such ratiosinations which are made useful onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We and all other Churches do of their own accord yeild unto you that they are Fallible We save you the labour of the eviction True Churches they say they are and say they are not Infallible and they say also that you only do lay claim to this Infallibility but what then therefore you have Infallibility what because you only claim it Suppose that the Roman Church doth lay claim to Utopia or to the Terra incognita no other Church doth not the Protestant not any other therefore it is due to them Yes but where is this Utopia where is this Terra incognita what be the Priviledges and Dominions thereof they are yet to seek for them who lay claim to them First then make it out that there is such an Infallibility to be had before you challenge it and do not prove the beeing of it by your challenging it lest your Roman Eagle be said to catch at flies but prove solidly the beeing of it by the grounds thereof and then secondly prove a just claim for suppose that others did not lay claim to it what right can yet you have by a claim Is this also given primo occupanti If you have no other tenure for your Infallibility you have none and it doth bespeak fallibility to say the title is good If I might be so bold and surely I may in the cause of the truth of God it is more likely to fall out thus no Church but the Roman doth pretend to Infalliblity therefore is it highly presumptuous and is onely in this not an Usurper because there is no such thing as belonging to any Church We have no such tradition nor the Churches of God and yet also is it an insolent Usurpation of that Prerogative which belongs onely to God and Scripture This is enough to undo your argumentation and you but whereas you say that all other Churches of other Religions do say indeed that they themselves are the onely true Churches it is not true they doe not speak of themselves exclusively as you do Particular true Churches they may be under the truly Catholick Church and therefore they can contesserate one with another with respective acknowledgements but you are they who exclude all from the condition of being true Churches which will not reconcile themselves to you by absolute subjection And since you say that all other Churches but yours disclaim Infallibility you see that we alone do not stand aloof from obedience to your Roman Tyranny So you are not Catholicks in dominion neither Yet you would seem to have some reason for your discourse that one Church must be Infallible otherwise Christ hath not nor hath had any true Church these many ages This is inconsequential unlesse there be some Church Infallible Christ hath no true Church It is a false proposition as we have answered you from the first to the last that a true Church is Infallible and it is now all the question Though it be not true in every point yet may it be a true Church Every error doth not destroy the beeing of the Church and you have very great cause not to presse this lest it be retorted against your Church as it might be to be Even with you that Church which holds it selfe Infallible and yet hath erred is Fallible and therefore by your Doctrine no true Church the Church of Rome holdeth it self Infallible and yet hath erred then this is no true Church And might not the assumption here be proved by your own Doctrine for if the Tradition of the Church be the Rule of Faith then you have erred in rejecting the Millenary opinion which was a tradition of the Church So then your designe you speak of in the 28. Number of not expressing the Roman Church in your dispute you see is destroyed for what you say of
as to his own person but not in matters of Faith as to the Church I beleeve that the Church is the Spouse of Christ and that she is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing as to that part which is in Heaven and that the other part of the Church as invisible which is not yet in Heaven shall be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing when it cometh up to Heaven But I do not beleeve that that Text is meant of the Church visible For all here glorious or none not all glorious here therefore none For you find it in the Text that it is to be presented as a glorious Church namely as in the whole But you will not say that every Member of the visible Church is here glorious without spot without wrinkle or any such thing If you do say so you contradict Bellarmin in his third Book of the Militant Church the second chapter who there includes in his Definition of the Church visible even Reprobates wicked and ungodly men and requires there no internal virtue for the constitution of a Member of the Church but onely an external profession of Faith and communion of Sacraments And besides you know glory which is a perfection of Grace doth not belong to the way but the Country in Heaven And besides if you will not beleeve me in such an Exposition beleeve your Estius who with * In his Retractations p. 9. Ed. Frob. but this Quotation not added in my copy to him Saint Austin understands it upon good Reason of the Church invisible as you may see in Estius Comment upon the place And here by the way we have another Testimony of your own against you if you account your Argument from this Text sufficient to your cause And we have St. Austins authority to boot as Estius quotes him And moreover Holynesse is no formal principle of our direction especially in points of Faith It is Holy because it follows and as it follows the Rule and so should we in faith and manners And therefore if it were to be understood of the Visible Church as it is not yet you conclude nothing for your turn upon this consideration To hasten the next Text is formerly urged the Church the Pillar and Ground of Truth Yet squeeze it and presse it and make the best use of it you can it will not afford your inference you would make from it For first some and also very reasonably will refer this Expression not to the Church but to the Mystery of Godlinesse which follows and so they make it as an Hebrew form of setting out some high point and grand Doctrine and then it goes thus A Pillar and Ground of Truth and without Controversie a great Mystery of Godliness is this namely God manifested in the flesh c. If so your interesse in it is sunk and indeed the copulative And and without Controversie doth not seem so well and so close to knit else But it being given not granted that that Criticisme is not sufficient what of all that For Saint Irenaeus as before gives this Eulogy to the Scripture The Scripture gives it to the Church Now to which doth this propertie belong first and absolutely To the Scripture or to the Church Not to the Church for the Church hath it from the Scripture Now that which hath it first hath its absolutely and independently upon that which follows therefore the Scripture is the absolute Pillar and ground of Truth Then there Faith hath sure footing there it sits down there it rests on that Ground upon that Pillar The Church then hath this Title but subordinately and what it saith cannot bind but conditionately to that which is the absolute Ground and Pillar of Truth For the Truth is the Pillar and Ground of the Church as Saint Chysostome saith upon the place Take it then of the Catholick Church not Roman The Text doth more set out the Office of the Church then the authority It doth hold it doth propose it doth uphold the Truth but this doth not convince or evince that whatsoever the Church doth hold we should also hold and upon that account also as if God had appointed the Church infallibly to conveigh to us whatsoever Truth and nothing but Truth And therefore may we and ought we to search the Scriptures as our Savâ—our speaks John 5.39 and by them examine whatsoever the Church saith as those of Beraea did that which was said by Saint Paul and they commended for it And therefore we cannot believe the Definitions of the Church upon its own word Nay can we also say that God doth now give unto the Church such assistance as then which was noted before and therefore we distinguish times not thinking there should be as much said of the Church now as when it included the Apostles and therefore supposing that the Church then did hold all that was true and nothing contrary yet we cannot say it of the Church now and therefore is not the cause of Faith under whose authority it must also passe beside the Divine Revelation to make it Catholique For the Church is conserved by the Truth as Estius also upon the place then thus where the ground of the Catholique Church is there is the ground of Catholique Faith The Scripture is the ground of the Catholique Church unlesse it be conserved by some other principle then by which it is constituted And it is conserved by the Truth saith he and thy word is Truth saith our Saviour John 17.17 And whereas he sayes that the Truth sustaineth the Church and the Church sustaineth the Truth and so one is the cause of the other we answer this is not availeable for you For in the same kinde of cause it cannot be for then we are in a circle but the Truth sustains the Church so as to continue it in its principles the Church sustains the Truth but by way of ministery which doth not make it to be a principle of Faith no not to us Neither do the other Texts speak for you as you would have them If the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church it doth not follow that then Catholique Faith must be built upon the proposalls of the Church Nothing shall prevail to the Condemnation of those who belong to the Church of God as invisible and nothing shall prevail not the Gates of Hell against the Church visible so as somewhere or other there shall not be some who shall professe the Christian Doctrine and Worship sufficiently to salvation The next Text speaks towards Excommunication which comes little into the question for the authority of the Church may proceed to Censure although we be not bound upon peril of want of Faith to submit our understandings to the definitions of the Church As to the authority we may submit so as to endure the censure though we do not submit our judgements as to believe the definitions As to the next place of Scripture
also confesse yet I also say that this Church of Christ must be confessed to be Infallible But withall I would have every one know that the Roman Church doth oblige to no more then to believe that the Pope defining with a lawful General Councel cannot erre for it is no necessary Article of Faith to believe that the Pope or head of the Church cannot erre when he defineth without a General Councel Now that this definition of a whole General Councel is Infallible ought not to seem strange to any Christian for who can think it strange that Christ for the secure direction of the first Christians whom the Apostles converted should give this Infallibility to all and every one of the Apostles and that he should regard so little the secure direction of all other Christians who were to be from the Apostles time to the end of the world that for their sakes for the secure direction of their Souls he would not give this Infallibility so much as to one Man no not to all the Prelats of Christianity assembled together with their head to define matters most necessary and in which all error would be most pernicious who I say could think this strange especially being this gift of Infallibility is given not for their private sakes to whom it is given but for the universal good and necessary direction concord and perpetual unity of the whole Church You must acknowledge that he gave Infallibility of Doctrine to all those who did write any small part of the Old or New Scripture He gave it to David though he was an Adulterer he gave it to Solomon who proved not only a most vicious Man in Life but who for his own person in point of Faith came to fall into Worshipping of Idols This you will not have thought strange but you will hold it Incredible that he should give this Infallibility not to one Man but the whole Church represented in a General Councel Let us passe on further yet and see how firmly this Infallibility is grounded I have above shewed how strongly it is grounded on those words of God promising a Holy way a way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it See here the third Number In the eight Number I have shewed that we cannot ground that Faith by which we believe the Sabbath to be changed to the Sunday upon Scripture but we must ground it upon the Tradition of the Church which if it be not Infallible we have no Infallible Ground at all for this point And in the ninth Number I have shewed the self-same to be about eating Blood or Chickens or any thing that is strangled In the 11 12 and 13. Number I have demonstrated that by the Scripture we cannot know which is true Scripture which is false which Books be Infallibly the Word of God which not for the Scripture hath not one Text in which it telleth us this and therefore for this Important point of Faith we can finde no other sure Ground then the Tradition of an Infallible Church for a fallible Tradition may deceive us In the 14. Number I have shewed that when Controversies arise as most and most Important Controversies do arise about the true meaning of the Scripture even after we have conferred all places together and looked upon the Original Languages the the Controversies still remain undecided and no Infallible way can be found to decide them by Scripture There is therefore no Infallible way to decide them if the decision and definition of the whole Church in a General Councel be not Infallible This is so clear that to the wonder of the world Luther himself in his Book of the Power of the Pope writeth thus We are not certain of any private Man that he hath the Revelation of the Father The Church alone it is of which it is not lawful to doubt So he In the 15. Number I have shewed that there be many points necessarily to be believed under pain of damnation which points are not at all set down in any clear Scripture For these points it is manifest that we can have no other ground then the Authority of the Church If this be not Infallible then we have onely fallible ground which cannot be a ground of Faith In the 16. Number I have confirmed the same Doctrine by the Authority of Saint Austin and Saint Chrysostome In the 17. Number I have proved this Doctrine clearly out of Gods Promise that he would build this his Church upon a Rock and that the Gates of Hell should not prevail against it which the Gates of Hell might easily do if the Church could come to teach damnable errors carrying her and her Children into the Gates of Hell it self The same in the same place I have proved by Gods commanding us to Tell the Church and commanding us to hold all those who will not hear the Church as Publicans and Heathens and by making good in Heaven the Sentence of the Church given upon Earth which he would not do if the Church should have at any time failed in her definition and that in points damnably erroneous In the 18. Number I have alledged other Texts still proving the same In the 19. Number I have shewed that for two Thousand years together before the Scriptures were written the true believers had no other sure ground of their Faith but the Authority of the Church which if it had been fallible the very ground of their Faith had been groundlesse and none at all The first Believers also and many whole Nations had no other ground then the said Authority of the Church as there I have shewed out of Saint Irenaeus and it is clear of it self for they did not build their Faith on any Scriptures Thus far I have gone already in the proof of the Infallibility of the Church Now I go on with those words of Saint Paul 1 Tim. 3. v. 15. where the Church of the living God is called The Pillar and Ground of Truth May not Men rely securely upon the Pillar of Truth May they not ground themselves assuredly on the ground of Truth No ground being surer ground and more infallible then the ground of Truth it self Yea my Adversary having found a place in St. Irenaeus calling the Scripture the Foundation and Pillar of Faith doth infer that if it be so then it is the ground and cause of our faith If this consequence be strong which I deny not then is it yet a stronger that the Truth is no where surer grounded then upon the Pillar and Foundation of Truth But my Adversary would take this place of St. Paul from me because he saith This expression may very reasonably be referred not to the Church but to the mystery of Godlyness and so be an Hebrew form c. Surely he forgot that this Epistle was not written in Hebrew but in Greek and then again No Hebrew form in the world can make the sense he intends What can be
the Judges of Controversies or to be infallible Wherefore they cannot be either judges or infallible for if they be true Judges then they judge truly against themselves when they judge it to be as certain as Scripture that there is no Judge but Scripture And if they be truly infallible in defining them they truly and by infallible authority define themselves to be fallible whilest they define it to be Scripture that the true Church is fallable Wherefore infallibly they are fallible and consequently infallibly they are not the true Church which we have demonstrated to be infallible and all those Texts authorities and Reasons must needs prove all Churches false that be fallible whilest they prove the true Church necessarily to be infallible But all Churches besides the Roman by their own faith are according to infallible Scripture fallible None of them therefore is the true Church If then the Roman Church be not the true Church then Christ hath no true Church left on Earth nor hath not had these many Ages Hence you may gather why I never was sollicitous to prove all that was said of the Church by the Scriptures and Fathers to be said of the Roman Church for whilest I did shew them to be said of such a Church as might be of an Authority infallibile and sufficient to ground Faith It followed manifestly that all was said of the Roman no other being Infallible and so Christ should have no true Church if this be not a true one For I have demonstrated that no other can be Infallible This being a Demonstration until this Argument be answered I hold my self bound to say no more yet I must needs tell you in brief a small part of that which I can and will say if this point be again pressed I will shew how unanimously the Fathers acknowledge this St. Cyprian Ep. 3. l. 1. saith that false Faith cannot have Access to the Roman Church St. Hierome in 1. ad Tim. calleth Damasus the Pope of Rome The Rector of the House of God which St. Paul calleth the Pillar and Foundation of truth And in his Epistle to the same Pope he saith To your Holiness that is to the Chair of Peter I am joyned in communion Upon this Rock I know the Church to be built He that gathers not with thee scatters So the Fathers in the Councel of Chalcedon at the voice of St. Leo Pope of Rome said Peter hath spoken by the mouth of Leo. And many such other places I will alledge for which now I remit you to Stapleton and Bellarmine who both shew most diligently how all other Churches have gone to Rome to receive judgement in their chief Causes See this done in all Ages in Bell. 3. De Verbo Dei e. 6. I will shew also how all Churches of all Ages which were not confessed Heretical or Schismatical Churches have been ever joyned in communion to the Roman until St. Gregory the greats time and then ever since and how in his time England received the same Roman Faith which now all Roman Catholiques professe and all Protestants deny And I will shew that this faith then brought into England from Rome did not in any point of Faith controverted between the Roman Catholiques and the Protestants differ from that undoubted true Apostolical Faith which our old Brittains received from Rome in the second age of the Church in the dayes of Eleutherius and from hence the present Roman Churches communion in Doctrine with the Ancient Apostolical Church will appear I will shew that perpetual visibility agreeth onely to the Roman Church and consequently that in her onely that Prophesie concerning Christ was fulfilled That he should reigne in the House of Jacob for ever and of his reign there shall be no end We can shew how he hath reigned here by known and manifest Pastors of the Church who have in all ages appeared in Councils to govern his Church I pray set us but know the name of one of your Pastors Doctors or Preachers in those last thousand ages which preceded Luther All are bound to be of the true Church but to be of an invisible Church having onely Invisible Pastors administring Sacraments in an invisible manner no man can be bound to be of I will shew that all conversions of Nations from Idolatry so often promised to be made by the true Church were all and every one of them made by such as did communicate with the Roman Church and no one Nation ever converted from Paganisme by those who professed Protestant Religion or held these points in which Protestants differ from us I will add also that all who have been eminent for sanctity of Life or glory of Miracles have all been joyned in communion to the Roman Church and you cannot name any one famous in either of these respects whom you can prove to have been a Protestant a most evident sign of the Truth of the Roman Church Compare any other Church to it in all these points here mentioned and you shall see all incomparably more verified in the Roman Church then in any other differing from her or agreeing with you yea verified in none but her I have then I hope performed my Promise to shew a clear way how in the midst of so many Religions to find the true One by the Infallible Authority of the Catholick Church which I have shewed to be the Judge in all Controversies of Faith and of Authority sufficient to ground true Faith upon and that when all this is done This is that holy and direct way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it and wise men must erre if they walk not by it The Conclusion Shewing the Reply to my Papers to have been fully answered in the former Discourse This Reply consisteth of Eight Answers with a word or two at the end and at the beginning of these Answers To all these in Order FIrst at the beginning you say there is little reason for you to rejoyn because I wave the Application of my discourse as to the Roman Church I answer That my Position was that the Church is the Ground of Faith Of the Roman Church it was to no end to speak until I had been first granted that some Church or other was the Ground of Faith A man must first prove to a Jew that the Messias is come and then he must prove that Christ was this Messias Again all my Proofs proved an infallible Church to be the ground of Faith of which no fallible Church could be a sure Ground as is manifest But all Churches but the Roman Church do profess according to Scripture themselves to be fallible whence it followeth that all Churches but the Roman must needs be fallible For if they or any of them be infallible then they teach the infallible Truth when they teach themselves to be fallible No Church therefore can be Infallible but she who teacheth her self to be Infallible Consequently when I proved the
if one be sufficient why the other if both be necessarie then either is not sufficient So then if the Scripture be the most sufficient ground of Faith when it be known to be the Word of God and the sense of it then I have contradicted you and you have contradicted your self For I say as you say that it is most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith And two sufficients there are not in the same kind Yes you say but first the Scripture must be known by infallible authoritie to be the Word of God Well but we both beleeve that the Scripture is the Word of God and by infallible authoritie we do beleive the Scripture to be the Word of God because we do believe it by the authoritie of it self which you say is infallible And if you believe it by infallible authoritie of the Church as you think you must go to Scripture for this authoritie then is not the Church a sufficient ground because it needs the Scripture to prove the Church and confirm its authoritie And therefore my concluding was contradictorie since your supposition of two sufficient grounds is false Well and how shall we know evidentlie whether this is the sense of Scripture By the authoritie of the Church you say And why then do they not by their authoritie evidentlie deliver unto us the sense of Scripture in everie difficultie If it cannot it is insufficient if it will not it is uncharitable and besides you fall into the same danger again For where hath it this authoritie by the Scripture then the Scripture is the sufficient ground again and this not And when the Church in a Council doth decide a controversie best it doth so by principles of Scripture applying them to particular cases and the determinations of the Church have themselves to the Scripture but as conclusions and the Scripture hath it self to those conclusions as the principle And therefore properlie the principles are believed and the conclusions are credible not by themselves but by participation from the Principles So that as the prime Principles are the ground of all Science so are the Principles of Scripture the ground of all Faith And the first Principle in Theologie must be this that the Scripture is the Word of God and so the ground of Faith And if the Church be not subordinate it is opposite to Scripture as the first Principle and so stands by it self and must fall to the ground And if you say it is not necessarie to umpire all doubts then you say as we say and why then an infallible Judge And forasmuch as we doe believe the Scripture to be the Word of God why do you contend because we do not believe it as you believe it but if you intend your Treatise in charitie you might have spared your labour For we are in a surer condition then you can be upon your Principles You believe the Scripture by the authoritie of the Church and we believe it by that by which the Church hath its authoritie So that the Scripture is not onely the first ground in regard of Order but also of Causalitie because the Church hath no ground but by Scripture Therefore we like your intention better then your judgement Neither do we denie the moment of the authoritie of the Catholick Church towards Faith so that we have all the authoritie of Heaven and Earth for our belief And if there were a doubt and in us a possibilitie of errour by apprehension that we cannot be assured of the Scripture to be the Word of God by the Church yet our errour would not be so dangerous because we should erre in honour of Scripture as yours is or would be who erre in honour of the Church Also must I observe your ingenuitie again here that you do profess it as most true that the Scripture is the most sufficient ground of Faith when we know by infallible authoritie that it is the Word of God and that such and such is the sense thereof If there be degrees of Truth and sufficiencie then are we more secure if degrees of Truth and sufficiencie to us then are we yet more right And also this doth deduct from your universalitie of faith in your first paper by the proposal of the Church in all things For my second third and fourth and fifth answer the Paragraphs of your Discourse or Treatise have in them nothing whith hath any potential contrarietie to them which I have not fully as I think taken away In your Application you make to or against my sixth answer you seem to take another argument to perswade me that the Scripture and the Church may both be grounds of Faith It is by way of interrogation Can I not say you ground my Faith upon what Saint Peter saith because I can ground it upon that which Saint Paul saith We answer your question is out of question but your consequence from thence is unsolid and unjudicious because they were both inspired in their Doctrine but it is yet again in question whether the Church be infalliblie inspired and we can be infalliblie assured thereof the reason being not the same your reasoning sinks Yet you insist further Why is the Scripture the rule of Faith Because it delivereth to me Gods written VVord but the Church delivereth to me Gods VVord written and unwritten I may therefore rule my self by that So you I answer This argument hath no strength to weaken that which I laid down before that there are not two sufficicient grounds of Faith because the Church is but a Ministerial rule and subordinate to Scripture and so subordinately a rule as to that VVord of God which is written and therefore can it not ground or order my Faith by its own Vertue but onely by proportion to Scripture and so is not a rule equal to Scripture intensively And if you conceive your argument should have any force because the Church doth exceed the Scripture extensively in that it delivereth the VVord written and unwritten Surely you are much mistaken by your supposition that there is a VVord of God not written in points of Faith equally credible to that which is written It is to be proved not supposed Your reasoning rather hath force against your self The Church is not a rule infallible because it delivereth to us a VVord of God not written for herein it mainly erres The Scripture is not onely a necessarie rule but also sufficient most sufficient And therefore they bring in tradition by way of supplement you say it is a sufficient rule in that you say it is a sufficicient ground of Faith therefore must you expunge tradition This rule of Scripture you say is often so crookedly applied that we had need of better securitie of interpretation then our own judgement of discretion So you First this is accidental to the rule and therefore it doth not infringe its prerogative Secondly by this Argument if you drive it to
Crimen falsi for I do not see upon the place any half Syllables out of which you may draw any such interpretative Confession I have often upon your occasion said the contrary that the authority of the Church cannot be the cause of faith And therefore whether you have any faith of the Articles of Religion or of Scripture in all your Church is more easie to be found then said And assuredly though we talk of faith in the world the greatest part of it is but opinion which takes religion upon the credit of man and not of Scripture And as for us we have also the authority of the Church Catholick to move our judgement and Scripture to settle our faith And we are more related to the foure General Councils in consanguinitie of Doctrine as he said then your Church now And now at the end of all you doe fairly rebate the edge of your censure of my Expression namely Excesse of Faith But you say my distinction doth no way salve the improprietie of my Speech For there is still a difference in more believing Objects and believing more Objects But granting that it may be improperly spoken yet even in that sense it is not truely said because there can be no Excesse of Faith in believing that which God hath said So then by my Distinctions which is your School of Fides Subjectiva fides Objectiva fides Qua fides Quae there may be an Excesse of Faith in the Object if we beleive more then God hath said supposing we can believe what God hath not said although there be not an excess of faith in the Subject for we cannot have too much faith in that which is to be believed But the quarrel against the speech was not becacause it was not proper enough and congruous in this Discourse but because of the Application of it to you as it now appears and therefore here would you vindicate the Church in this upon the same ground of infallibilitie and therefore for your Faith in whatsoever you believe you have this Warrant Thus saith the Lord. But since this infallibilitie of yours you cannot have without begging of the question even to the last nor shall have it surely by begging you are yet to finde out some Expedience of Means or Arguments how to preserve your selves from that just charge of Excesse of Faith and the chief of that kind is that you speak of your infallibilitie for which you have not Thus saith the Lord. How then do you prove it by Tradition And how do you prove Tradition by the infallibility of the Church Therefore go not to Faith about by a circumference If you have a desire to rest your judgement and your soul in certain infallibilitie by your own word then center in Scripture from which all Lines of Truth are drawn and dismisse Tradition as your men state it for which this infallibilitie was devised and yet cannot be maintained for it cannot maintain it self You close with a passage of Saint Austin If so the words you intend it to set out your Charity to the Church of Christ not to perswade my Faith in its infallibilitie I may love the Church without infallibility because though I doe not love Errour yet must I love the Church when it is in Errour And this gives you occasion to think well of this respective and full answer to your last Paper Excuse me that it was so long ere it came and yet not much above the space of yours and also so long now it is come Onely let me leave you with a Father or two in whose company you are delighted Tertullian in his Prescript cap. 8. We have no need of Curiositie after Christ nor further Inquisition after the Gospell When we believe we desire to believe nothing beyond For this we first believe that there is not any thing beyond which we ought to believe Again against Hermog cap. 22. I adore the plenitude of Scripture And a little after Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis Officina If it be not written let him fear that woe appointed for those who adde or take away And Saint Austin in his 2. book De Doc. Christiana cap. 9. In iis enim quae aperte in Scriptura posita sunt Amongst those things which are plainly laid down in Scripture are found all those things which contain Faith and Manners of Living to wit Hope and Charitie For the excellent modification of Scripture in the 6. chapter Magnifice igitur salubriter Sp. Sanctus ita Scripturas Sanitas modificavit ut locis apertioribus fami occurreret obscurioribus autem fastidia detergeret Nihil enim fere de illis obscuritatibus eruitur quod non planissime dictum alibi reperiatur And the same in the 7. chapter for the second Degree or step to Wisedome He saith Deinde opus est mitescere Pietate neque Contradicere Divinae Scripturae sive intellectae si aliqua vitia nostra percutit sive non intellectae quasi nos melius sapere meliusque percipere possimus sed cogitare potius credere id esse melius verius quod ibi scriptum est etiamsi lateat quam id quod nos per nos met-ipsos sapere possumus And again Saint Austin contra Literas Petit. Lib. 3. cap. 6. Proinde sive de Christo sive de ejus Ecclesia sive de quacunque alia re quae pertinet ad fidem vitamque nostram non dicam nos nequaquam comparandi ei qui dixit Licet si nos sed omnino quod secutus adjecit Si Angelus de Coelo vobis annuntiaverit praeterquam quod in Scripturis legalibus Evangelicis accepistis Anathema sit Consider what is said and the Lord give you understanding in all things To the Reader How in these times in which there be so many Religions the true Religion may certainly be found out 1. A Satisfactory Answer to this Title will alone put an end to the endless controversies of these dayes This made me think my labour well bestowed in treating this point somewhat largely And because that Treatise hath received a very large answer the examining of this answer will make the Truth yet more apparent That this may be done more clearly I will briefly tell you the Order I intend to observe in the examination of the said answer And because this answer directly followeth the same Order which I observed in treating the question prefixed in my Title Therefore when I have shewed you the Order of that Treatise you will clearly see that I shall most orderly answer the Reply against it 2. That Treatise had a short Preface to tell the intent of it My first Chapter must then be the Examination of what is said against this Preface Again that Treatise did shew five things First it did shew the necessity of a Judge to whom all are bound to submit Secondly That Scripture alone did not suffice to decide all necessary Controversies without a living Judge to
as they most prudently believed what the Prophets taught them by word of mouth to be infallibly true because spoken by those whom God gave Commission to say what they said so they most prudently believed what the same men did deliver to them by their writings as Gods Word because written by those whom God gave Commission unto to write what they writ The credit and belief given as well to their writings as to their words unwritten was at last found prudently accepted upon the Motives upon which they accepted their Commissions as given by God for their infallible instruction All were moved prudently to accept of this their Commission because God did own it for his by several Miracles or other most apparent proofs testifying to the people the infallible Commission which those Prophets and Scripture writers had to teach them by words or writing or both Their wits then were induced to accept of this their Commission as truly given by God moved thereunto by such prudent Motives that it had been a high act of imprudence which in point of salvation is damnable to have disbelieved them for example they did either see such apparent Miracles or such notorious force of Doctrine working visibly so strange changes of manners and in so many before so vitious to a life very Vertuous and sometimes vertuous in a stupidious degree The writers of the New Testament had these divine attentions yet more abundantly though the others cannot be denied sufficient whence as from their only words not yet written many thousands received their faith because they first prudently were induced by these Motives to acknowledge them to have had a true Commission from God to say to us in his Name all that they said and then because they acknowledged this Commission to be from God they believed infallibly all what they said because they said it with Commission from God to say it So by their words now written by them in the Scriptures which they delivered unto them many thousands received their Faith because first prudently they were induced by these Motives to acknowledge these writers to have had a true Commission from God to write what they did write in his Name and then because they acknowledged this Commission to have been from God they did believe infallibly all that they did write because they did write it with Commission from God Thus you see upon what assurance those who first received the Scriptures did receive them for Gods VVord The Apostles gave their writings to the prime Prelates and Pastors of the Church assuring them in Gods Name that these writings were Gods VVord These Pastors and Prelates preached to the people that they should admit of these writings as Gods true VVord VVhat they preached was believed with an infallible assent upon the authoritie of the prime Pastours of the Church They were prudently induced to give an infallible assent to their authority by these strong Motives by which they had demonstrated themselves to have Commission from God to teach his Doctrine both by word and writing Thus was the first Age assured of Gods Word by the Oral Tradition of the first Pastors of the Church assuring them also that the Spirit of truth would abide with the Church teaching her all truth and that they were to hear the Church under pain of being accounted Publicans and Heathens and that she should be unto them as the piller and ground of truth for as they did write so doubtless they did teach these things These first Christians then received this doctrine with an assent as infallible as they received the Scriptures And so all then believed and all taught their Successors to believe the Church to have such infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost that in all doubts arising about faith they were to submit unto her as to one having Commission from God to declare all such matters The second Age by so universal so full so manifest a tradition was most prudently induced to acknowledge the church to have such a Commission from God and so they believe the Church for this divine authority given her Now there is nothing which can make any thing more prudently credible then universal tradition A miracle to confirm that there is such a City as London though in it self it were a surer motive would not work so undoubted a beliefe in the minds of those who never did see London as universal tradition worketh And yet this tradition is but one of the motives which induceth us to acknowledge the Church to have received Commission to declare with infallible authority the Verities received from the Apostles and consequently her declarations to be admitted with infallible assent for her authority But I must needs note that this motive of tradition alone did serve to make all for the first 2000 yeares and more give an infallible assent to their Church see Ch. 4. Number 11. yet here I intreat you to mark how they resolved their faith then Why did they believe then that the Soul was immortal Because God said so by his Church having Commission to teach us all we are to believe Why believed they that this Church had Commission to teach them as Authorized with due infallibilitie Because the same Church told them so Why did they believe this Because they would do so And they would do so because it had been meere folly not to accept of this Churches Commission to teach them infallibly all truths which Commission they knew by tradition to have been ever accepted as divine by all good people so we c. I will adde one Motive more 33. Miracles are called a Testimony greater then Iohn the Baptist Christ himself said If you will not believe me believe my Works By this great testimony of Miracles God hath often owned the doctrine of the Romane Church even as it is in this our dayes For he knoweth but litle of the world who doth not know the vast extent of those Provinces and Kingdomes which in this last Age the Preachers of the Roman Faith have added to their Faith by this Testimony of God by Signes and Wonders and divers Miracles Hebrewes 2.4 And here most Visibly Our Lord ever working withall and confirming their words by Signes and Miracles It appeareth also by the History of Bede and the plain confession of your learned Magdeburgians that the faith brought into our England by St. Austin was the same faith which you abolished by your Reformation as you call it And yet again it appeareth by Bede and St. Gregory his Epistles that wonderful were the miracles which St. Austin wrought in Confirmation of the faith preached in so much that St. Gregory thought it necessary to admonish him of conteining himself in humility lest the working of so many miracles should puff him up These Preachers preached the Doctrine of our Church God confirmed their Doctrine by miracles Therefore the doctrine of our Church was confirmed by miracles And it may for this motive
Priest defining in a general Council erred not I wonder you goe about also to justify the Translators proceedings because who think the scope of the sacred writer doth bear it Is not this to give Translators leave together with their Translation to obtrude their glosse and what they imagin the scope should be Is this a sound Translation Master Broughton one of the best skilled in Hebrew and Greek of your Church did according to his great skill give a truer censure of your Translation in his advertisement of corruption to your Bishops saying That their publick Translation of Scriptures into English is such as it perverteth the Text of the old Testament in Eight hundred fourty eight places And that it causeth Millions of Millions to reject the new Testament and to run to eternall flames In what case then are they who take all that this Bible saith for the undoubted word of God When Tindal in the beginning of your Reformation Translated Gods Word into English he did reform it so like one of your great Reformers that Bishop Tonstall noted no lesse then two thousand Corruptions in the New Testament only Is not this good dealing in so short a volume Is reading of these Translations called by you the Knowledge of Scripture Chap. 1. Num. 3. 10. But to go on with my former discourse I did say Of my 19th Number let any man aske the Priests of our Church what is the known doctrine of the Church and let him rest securely when he knows that This you say is unreasonable because the Priests are not infallible But Sir do you not marke that I ground their faith not upon the Priest but upon the Church Universal Just as you say you ground your faith not upon your Translations which only conveigh as the Priests doe the word of God to the searcher of it yet we have incomparable more assurance of the agreement of what the Priests say to be the known doctrin of the Church with the true doctrine of the Church then you have of the agreement of your most corrupted as we now shewed Translations with the true Word of God which I explicated more largely in the beginning of the last Number whence you will see that when by fallible men we know that this word Homo a man signifieth a man and not a beast that when I find in Scripture thaâ— God became Homo a man I am infallibly assured he became a true man and not a beast Or a sea-man so when by fallible men we know assuredly enough to make it evidently credible that this is the doctrine of the Church we are assured by the Church that is true For the Church is infallible as I am here proving and secured from all errour which the Scripture to those who rejects the Church are not neither in their Translations as I have here shewed nor in their Original as I shewed in the last chap Numb 35. And again although you were secured of the true Scripture yet you are not secured of the true sense of it as I shewed there Num. 50. And yet again a great many necessary Controversies are not contained in Scripture as I shewed in the beginning and ending of that Chapter which whosoever shall read will wonder with what confidence you ask well and are not all things necessary taught in the Scripture I have also shewed you it is false that what Authority the Church hath it hath from the Scripture see Chap. 3. N. 30. 31. 32. yea immediatly before those places I did by eight arguments shew that you have no infallible assurance of true Scripture if you deny the Churches infallibility And whosoever shall but consider what I sayd in the last Number will have a ready answer to your question here Why doth your Church take away from the people the vse of Scripture Sir why doth your English Church in place of Scripture give them such damnably corrupted Scriptures These Corruptions take indeed from them the use of Scripture it being impossible for them to know what is uncorrupted in such a Chaos of corruptions How miserably do you provide for the poor people In our manner of requiring that law from the Priests which your own Translation saith the people should do there is no more danger then in your taking the signification of a word in Scripture from the Publick consent of all men Again we permit the use of Scripture in such languages as a general council can judge of because they be sufficiently understood by the Church Universal Vulgar translations are incomparably more easily corrupted and their Corruptions unknown unto her The Latine language is known to most well bred men in learning To such others as are sober stayed and peaceable spirits the Church denyeth not the use of such Translations as their lawful local Prelates hold secure Farther use of Scripture is an abuse and we both see and fell the sad effects of it You who so carpt at going to the Priests of the Church for Knowledge of the law You I say if you mark it send all your people to your own Priests as you call them neither rightly ordained nor Canonically licensed to preach For to bid them go to the English Bible is to bid them go to translations most corrupted and authoriz'd only by your Ministers To confer these Translations with the Originals they cannot do no nor you neither For you know not infallibly the true Originals It is your own doctrine Translations are only known to be Gods word as far as they are known to agree with the Originals how far this is you not knowing the true Original cannot tell Of this you and all yours who deny the Church infallible are ignorant And upon your word who how learned so ever are ignorant of this which only concerns them they all in this highest matter must rely I put this so fully with great reflection because that Noble party whose Champion you are gave occasion to all our combating by carping at our blind obeying our Priest and believing them whereas all those of your Religion could go to the fountain But alas when that fountain which they conceive themselves to drink to their eternal health is so poisened as I shewed in the last Number that millions of millions as your own Broughtoâ— saith runne to Hell flames by occasion of this corruption And I may most truly say far more perish by mis-understanding whilest they follow their Ministers and their own private judgement of discretion that which is truly Translated then Perish by the corruption of that which is falsly Translated Thus they perish for not hearing that Church which their own Scripture bids them heare whereas in doing that which God biddeth there can be no danger of errour great or little And you slander us when you say we bid the people require from the Priests mouth not the law of God but the doctrine of the Church Sir the doctrine of the Church is Gods law And
them and which not For the sense even in necessary matters as I have shewed in the last Chapter is far from being evident Again Tradition doth of its own selfe naturally continue in its full force and vigour after the same things are wrirten as well as it did before as appears by what I just now said of the unwritten traditions by which many men only know France or Spain yea rather the increasing of it by being divulged in writing by most credible and manifold Authors doth very much strengthen this former tradition so far is it from taking any thing from it wherefore God must purposely by a miracle have infringed the course of Nature which no man can say he did if the former Traditions of the Church which before the writing of any Scripture did fully suffice alone to ground an infallible faith of such and such points should grow then to lose their sufficiency in order to the same effect when they were strengthned by so great an authority as that of the Sacred Writers was Hence is confuted the opinion of Protestants teaching the Authority of Traditions to have expired when the whole Canon of the Scripture was finished though not before For which they have no Scripture at all And if they go by reason they are to say Tradition was rather more strengthned yea if they will not say this yet consequently they should say that Tradition revived againe at least in part when some part of the Canon was lost yet you ought not to say that Tradition expired at the finishing of the Canon without it can be shewed that God did expresse this unto the Church so to undeceive those many thousands who had then reason to think that they might securely build their beliefe upon that upon which for about foure thousand yeares so many had untill that day built their faith When Saint Paul or any other Canonical writer preached first that doctrine which afterward he did write did the beliefe of those thousands which was at first sufficiently grounded upon his preaching come to lose its certainty or rather to gain a new degree of certainty when Saint Paul came afterward to write that they must hold the Traditions he had delivered to them 2 Thess 2. 1 Gal. 2. and that though an Angel should come and teach them contrary to what they had received by his Orall Tradition they should account him Anathema And again Have thou a form of sound words which thou hast heard of me 1. Tim. chap. 1. And again chap. 2. the things which thou hast heard he saith not read of me by many witnesses these commend to faithfull men which shall be fit to teach others also Would the writing of such Scriptures make them think any force taken from Traditions or rather make them conceive that Traditions are to be stood upon now more then ever before Again what wise man would put out one light costing him nothing because it will be shining of its own nature unlesse you will needs have it hidden because he hath now another light but so that even with both these lights many of his house-hold will still remain in darkness But if you say that if Scripture had not been given us we should have had a more certain Tradition given unto us I would know of you upon what account the Tradition of so Noble a Church as Christs Church is should be of lesse credit or certainty then the Tradition of that farre lesse Noble Church which was in the Law of Nature What meanes had they then given by God to secure their Tradition for the space of 4000. years which we want for the having secured our Traditions for these last 1654. yeares This meanes you can by no means assigne and therefore by all means you must grant the Traditions of this Nobler Church to have been as securely preserved from Corruption for these fewer yeares as those Traditions of a farre lesse Noble Church were preserved without corruption for above 4000 yeares Again the Tradition of Christs primitive Church before the Scriptures were written and sufficiently promulged which Tradition did by an infallible authority recommend all things was to be believed upon her sole authority and so was the Tradition of the first Church before there was any Scripture and therefore by good consequence she in the first place recōmended herauthority to be believed as divine and infallible and all the true believers believed it to be so which they could not have done without God had said so for all divine beliefe resteth upon the saying of God God therefore said by that his Church that her Traditions were infallible for her authority Now if God said this shall we upon your fallible discourse come to say the Church's Traditions are now no longer infallible though God said they were so and never yet expressed the ceasing of their infallibility By this you will see whether my Answer hath helped you or your reply helped me concerning what will follow out of St. Irenaeus 13. For this serves for making good what I said out of St. Irenaeus so farre as he is a witness which a profane author might have been of what hapned so near his times For as for his authority as he is a most grave Father of the Church and a most believing that to be true which he commended to writing as most true I doe not presse it against you Yet because here you thank St. Irenaeus for his testimony and make a shew as if it were for you though you cannot invent the means by which Tradition should have ben conveighed more certainly supposing there had been no Scripture I could not but observe how so soon as you have hugged him you cast him off again with small respect when you say Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations did rely only upon Tradition They might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition How flatly be these your words against St. Irenaeus who clearly declareth all himselfe to tell us upon what ground we must have been obliged to believe though the Apostles had never written any Scriptures at all What saith he if the Apostles had not left us the Scriptures must we not have followed that order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whose Charges they left the Church to be governed To this order of tradition by the unwritten word many barbarous Nations do assent who have believed in Christ without any writings keeping diligently the ancient Traditions What bringeth he this example of these Barbarous Nations for but to shew that we might with divine faith believe upon the sole account of that very tradition which the Apostles de facto left to those to whom they left the Churches goverment although the Apostles had never written at all at any time He therefore was none of those who would say with you neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations
to the Iewes Ninthly you ask if the Pope and Council do differ at any time about some question what shall be defined I answer nothing shall be defined because this essential hinderance manifesteth no definition of such a particular question to it at that time necessary for the preservation of the Church for if this depended upon such a present definition the Holy Ghost whom you still forget would not forget to inspire the parties requisite to do their duties Tenthly you ask how my opinion stands with theirs who affirm the government of the Church to be Monarchicall by Christs institution I answer our government in England was Monarchical this last five hundred years and yet our Monarchs could not do all things without a Parliament Again those who make the Pope sufficiently assisted to define all alone cannot possibly deny what I say to wit that he is sufficiently assisted when he defineth with a Councel Eleventhly you ask How many general Councells have been opposite to one another I answer Not so much as one You ask again in which or with which did he not erre I answer he neither erred in or with any In the Nicene he erred not as you will grant nor in the three next General Councels as your Church of England grants He subscribed not in the Councel of Ariminum how then did he erre in it yea because he subscribed not that Councel is never accounted lawful by any but Arrians or if your English Church accounted that a lawful Councel they must admit that whilest they admit the first foure Councels So that I am amazed to see a learned man four or five times object the contrariety of the Councel of Ariminum to the Councel of Nice to prove from thence that two lawful general Councels can be opposite to one another you knowing well that this Councel of Ariminum was no lawful Councel the cheif Bishop and head of the Church not subscribing in it Tell mee I pray if by all your great reading you can find one single Holy Father who did ever censure any one general Councel of doctrine in any one point either false or opposite to any former lawful general Councel In what age then live we which licenseth every Mechanical fellow freely to tax the Councels of all ages of errours against Scripture This is the fruit of crying out in what Councel or with what Councel did not the Pope erre Twelfthly you ask me I pray see my 12. Number above fine did ever any of the ancient councels determine of their own infallibility I answer the ancientest councel of all said Visum est Spiritui Sancto nobis It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us Could any thing fallible seem good to the Holy Ghost Or to a council lawfully assembled in the holy Ghost as all lawful councils were ever supposed by themselves to be and upon this ground they ever assumed an authority sufficient not only to be securely followed by the whole Church in their definitions but denounced an Anathema to the rejectors of their definitions which had been wickedly done if there might have been errours in faith The most bloudy persecution of tyrants could not have been halfe so pernitious to the Church as it was thus to be taught and compelled by the unanimous authority of Christendome to embrace that as Catholick doctrine which is an errour in faith And surely a practice so Universal so frequent and yet so pernitious would have been cried out upon over and over again by the most zealous and learned ancient Fathers who notwithstanding never opened their mouthes against this proceding of councils which could not be justifiable For this proceeding of setling a court of so great authority and an everlasting Court to be called in matters of greatest moment until the end of the world so to teach the world in all ages the Catholick truth in greatest points if in place of this truth errors against faith could have been perpetually obtruded even to the whole world and that with the greatest authority in the world and this under pain of being cut off from the body of Christ imagin if you can a thing more pernitious then this And yet this was the proceeding of all antiquity if the Church were fallible as you say Thirtenthly you ask me what I think of Nazianzens opinion about councels in his Ep. to Procopius the 12 as you say but I find it in the 42. Sir I think if what you have said against the proof of any point out of the General consent of Fathers be true no single proof brought from some one of them can have any force out of your mouth what force soever it might have had out of a Mouth used to speak otherwise of them But you are pressing asking shall I tell you yes Sir tell me Yet let me tell you that what he saith will be nothing to the purpose unles he can be shewed to speak of a lawful free General Councel called and directed by the chiefe Pastor of the Church presiding in it now Sir tell me doth he speak of such a councel His words are I am thus affected as to shun all meetings of Bishops if I must speak the truth for I never saw any good end of a Synod nor that had an end of evils more then an addition Sir you much wrong this grave Father if you think he speaketh of such councils as I now mentioned Before his speaking these words there had been but one such council to wit that of Nice Let us hear from himself his opinion of this one councel out of those Treatises which goe just before his Epistles which you might have read as well as them In the first of these Treatises being asked the most certain doctrine of faith He answereth that it is that which was promulgated by the Holy Fathers at Nice that he never did prefer nor was able to prefer any thing before it so He Tract 50. And in his next Treatise he explicates this faith at large And in the end he saith he doth imbrace the treatise of this council to the uttermost power of his mind knowing it opposed with invincible verity against all Hereticks and in his Orations to Saint Athanasius he sayeth The Fathers of this council were gathered by the Holy Ghost Saint Gregory then who speaketh thus had the same spirit that the other Saint Gregory the great who said I doe professe my selfe to reverence the first fower councils as I reverence the fower bookes of the Gospel And in this manner do I reverence the fift council Whosoever is of another mind let him be an Anathema l. 1 Epistol Ep. prope finem He then who thus reverenced lawful general councils did not doubtles speak the former words concerning them But did he perhaps speak them of lawful particular Councils No how then It was hard fortune to live in a time in which the Arrians had so great power that they disturbed the lawful proceedings
blessing may be like to pitch upon that true sense of Scripture which may determine the judgement unto certain assent As by the conflict of hard things sparkes of fire do break out so by the industrious discussion of opinions truth may appear eminently But we cannot conclude the definitions intuitively and ipso facto infallible And why should we be obliged to stand to their declaration of truth as if they did also make it to be truth And why should we stand to their Conclusions when their discourse is fallible unlesse they go by Scripture And if they by Scripture examine opinions why should not we by Scripture examine their definitions as to our selves Which should be last in the determination Council or Scripture when Councils begin by it and determine with it Therefore I do not make them in no sense finall or none That which follows Now surely it is cleare c. unto the end of the number how little strength of reason hath it This in effect was answered immediately before My Adversary does us right in confessing our acknowledgement of the first four Generall Councils And also may we confesse that we think they thought they had all plenitude of power and authority from God to define and finally to determine those Controversies but what then 1. What if they thought so We have liberty by our principles to think that inconcludent because we hold them not infallible in their judgement Not because they thought they had such power therefore they had it unlesse we should hold them infallible as we do not Neither is this thought of ours that they might think amiss of such power to be in them any prejudice to our acknowledgement of those first four General Councils because this opinion of theirs is no part of their determinations Secondly we distinguish All plenitude of power is taken either reduplicatively or specificatively for all that power which belongs to the whole Church the former if their opinion of themselves were infallible would serve his turne but we deny that they thought they had all power so and if they did think so we think they did not think right the latter power they might think they had and not think amisse but this serves not the turn for all authority of the Church doth not bind us to receive the definitions thereof so as to sink all examination of the truth thereof by Scripture Have not other courts a plenitude of power to hear and determine causes and yet are sometimes defective in point of law Their fallibility doth not proceed from want of power or authoritie but from want of judgement or will to give a right sentence And yet their censures also proceed And therefore the excommunications which my Adversary objects to me may neither import their faith of their infallibilitie nor yet wrong to all such as should gainsay what they had defined and determined if error and falsitie and contradiction to Scripture could be found in their definitions and determinations for first it is not fallibilitie of sentence that doth the wrong but falsity either by ignorance and so ignorantia in Judice reputatur pro dolo or else by wilfulnesse which formally makes the injurie because intended Secondly the excommunications proceed against the person for an outward act of obstinacie and not for a dissent of judgment for cogitationis poenam in nostro foro nemo luit so then there is no wrong to him that gainsays by excommunication for that simply he might keep his judgment And also thirdly the Judge though he judgeth not well yet may do well if he judgeth with competent knowledge and due integrity and therefore is it no injury if he does his best since God hath not thought fit on the behalfe of publick peace to disannull humane Judicatures for humane infirmities His Answer to my instance of the Bereans who searched the Scripture daily to see whether that which St. Paul said was true my Adversary doth referre to another Chapter We stay his leisure Whereas you adde fourthly Num. 6. that the decisions of the Church though unprovided of infallibilitie do yet oblige unto peace though their judgement cannot claime an undisputed assent yet the power they have from Christ doth require an undisturbance in the difference you teach by words what the deed of your glorious Reformers have notoriously gainsaid To this it is readily answered that Reformers may be glorious as to the generall effect though it 's possible for them to be extravagant in modo Sober businesses may be managed with too much heate Secondly whereas he supposeth that our glorious Reformers did notoriously gainsay the whole Church I deny it and if they did not gainesay the whole Church it doth not come home to his purpose for he is upon the authority of the whole Church They did gainsay the Roman Church but not the whole Church That which St. Jerom said in his Epistle to Evagrius is yet for our use si authoritas queritur orbis major est urbe if authority be lookt after the world is greater than a City which was also spoken in application to Rome And put case there were no sort of Christians that did not professe obedience to the Roman Church when those glorious Reformers did first appeare yet it cannot be rationally said by the Romanist that they did gainsay the whole Church because the Romanist doth take the root of his Church from the primitive times which those Reformers did not gainsay So then as we deny to them that they were all the whole Church when the Reformers did begin so if they had it would be nothing as to the gainsaying of the whole Church because the whole Church in their sence doth include all times and specially the primitive which they did not contradict And surely if the Romanist proves his Church by conformitie to the Primitive otherwise he hath the lesse reason for himself then must he interpretatively grant that there is more authority of the Primitive Church than of that present Roman And so then if the Reformers gainsaid not the primitive they gainsaid not the Catholick in the best part of it for time and that also which the present Roman doth most as they say depend upon Thirdly therefore we do not take our Religion from those Reformers as being worne into their words and therefore we do not impropriate Christianity by any singular persons we might take hints from them to consider those Doctrines which they preached and conferring them with Antiquity and Scripture we believe them to be Apostolicall and so is our Church by Tertullian's rule in his book of Prescriptions ch 32. In eadem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate Doctrinae those Churches that conspire in the faith are not lesse accounted Apostolical for the consanguinity of Doctrine Fourthly those Reformers even according to my Adversaries Principles did not oppose themselves to the authoritie of the whole Church because according to
an infallible assent no more than the first principles which are the object of intelligence And also therefore upon the premisses that which concludes the number might have been forborn Indeed you have brought your whole Religion to as pitifull a case as your Adversaries could wish it These braving words do not hurt a solid cause they are to be returned to the place from whence they came who hath brought Religion to so pitifull a case as the Pontifician who must have religion made accomodable to their pride and covetuousness No case of Religion so pitifull as uncertainty no such uncertainty of Religion as with them For if they ground their Religion upon the determination of Councils wherein onely Bishops have their vote and the Bishop of Rome his confirmation thereof no man can according to their principles be certain whether there be a true Pope or true Bishop as hath been said Moreover we can make use of intrinsecall arguments for the truth of Scripture to be the word of God as well as they We can make use of extrinsecall arguments better for we make use of the authority of the whole Church and do give it in this point as much reverence as is due thereunto But therefore till that which is here said for the setling of our faith be disproved and also till it be proved that we do not make use of these arguments towards our faith of Scripture because we do not pitch our finall resolution in them our ground of faith and of Religion is as good and sound as theirs yea in respect of our own subjective faith more Yea the Romanist might know that he hath been told that Estius doth differ from them upon this point and says that it is not necessary to faith to be begotten by the proposall of the Church in the third B. of senten 23 dist Yea also Stapleton in his Triplication against Whitaker saith p. 103. Ego igitur quicquid in haec causa Spiritui sancto tribuendum est plenissime assignavi c. I have most fully assigned what is to be attributed to the Holy Ghost in this cause asserting these two things both that by faith infused alone or by the testimony of the Holy Spirit alone all faith may be begotten when it pleaseth the Spirit of God to teach any extraordinarily immediately and also although ordinarily a thing is delivered by the testimony and authority of the Church yet no faith doth efficaciously follow without the gift of faith infused by God or without the internall testimony of the Spirit of God And again the same in the next page to the same purpose to clear himself of the suspition of giving no more to the Holy Ghost in this point than those who put the last reason of believing in the testimony of the Church he says disertly Ego enim c. For I have denied and do deny that the last reason of believing is to be put in the testimony of the Church not onely upon that head that that last proposition or resolution I believe the Church to be governed by the Holy Ghost is not had without the inward gift of faith or that he who believeth this believeth this by a gift of faith and not by humane faith or acquisit but especially upon that head that without any testification of the Church or notice of the Church or of the knowledge of that proposition That the Church is governed by the Spirit of God by the onely Magisterie of the Spirit of God one may believe all that is to be believed as the Prophets and Apostles being taught by the Spirit of God alone did believe many things for from hence it follows invincibly against Durandus and others since there can be but one formall reason of our faith and some believe without the testimony of the Church but none can believe without the testimony of the Spirit that the proper and formall reason of faith is not the voice of the Church but must be the testimony the Doctrine the Magistery of the Spirit of God So he And therefore there is lesse between Stapleton and me than betwixt my Adversary and me When all is done therefore we must come to this of the Father Cathedram habet in coelis qui corda docet in terris He hath his Chair in Heaven that teacheth hearts on earth and with the heart man believeth unto salvation Rom 10.10 Num. 21. Therefore in the following number he needed not to take notice of my differing from others of our own Church in this point let them agree with their own men Let Bannes and Stapleton agree with Durand or if they cannot be reconciled let them never hereafter make any difference amongst our selves a prejudice to the cause It is then no more reproach to me to differ from others than for some of them As for the three then whom he says I differ from Mr. Chillingworth Dr. Cowell and Mr. Hooker if they do not agree it it is no infallible argument against me even in the opinion of those three But also as to the first I say and my Adversaries might have known that he held not faith in the high notion of a Divine assent as they do But that a morall assurance was sufficient to it and sufficiently influxive into necessary practice And therefore having this opinion of faith he conceived no such need of an infallible ground hereof but took therefore a common principle for his motive hereof namely universal tradition Secondly if he takes not his grounds from my Adversaries what do they get by him For in his sixty sixth page he says that it is altogether as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to him that the Gospell of St. Mathew is the word of God as that all that the Roman Church says is true Yea moreover the same p. 135. doth fairly shew that the Spirit of God may give assurance hereof which he says indeed is not rationall and discursive but supernaturall and infused An assurance it may be to himself but not to any other and again p. 211. that the Doctrine it self is very fit and worthy to be thought to come from God Nec vox hominem sonat And is not then in his opinion the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If then he had raised faith to that height of a Divine assent as my Adversaries do it is very like he would have thought better of this assurance by the Spirit to be more ordinary since universal tradition if it hath any weight must rest in Scripture as it is the tradition of the universal Church which also he contradistinguisheth not onely to the Roman Church for place but to the present universall Church for time because we cannot prove the Church but by Scripture And as for the other two whose judgements he opposeth to my opinion I think they may receive convenient satisfaction by what is said to the former that they did not deny this assurance by the Spirit of God but
or in an higher kind nothing is more credible for this testimony of the Spirit which is not yet disproved makes a thing not only prudently credible but necessarily and in the way of Divine faith And that which is prudently credible doth not include this but this eminently includes that which is prudentiall credibility Yet he goes on Yet here I intreat you to mark how they resolv'd their faith then c. namely in the space of the 200 years and more wherein they had nothing but tradition to make them give an infallible assent to their Church Ans This I have marked and not precariously But what shall I see in it that will give a sober man any satisfaction For first what if they did believe the soul to be immortall because God said it by the Church and the Church because it said that it had Commission from God is authorized with infallibility and did also believe this because the Church said so and why so because they would do so what of all this therefore we are not infallibly assured that the Scripture is the word of God by the testimony of the Spirit If they did believe indeed in way of a Divine faith then the Spirit of God did assure them by tradition For otherwise they forsake the antient Theological account of faith and they must either say that faith is not an habit infused or that it may be an habit infused without the Spirit of God but if they believed improperly or in the way of humane faith as we doe believe there are seven hills at Rome without universall tradition or a miracle then this is not to the purpose for the discourse is peccant in the ignorance of the Elench we can say as much without contradiction to our cause Secondly they cannot surely expect that we should gratifie them so much as to say there is as much reason to believe tradition now as then because now they themselves will say that we have the benefit of what assurance the general Councils can make And also 3. we must here note out of their own words for the use of our cause that for the space of 200 years and more they had nothing but tradition to make them give an infallible assent to their Church So then for the same space they had not the coroboration of general Councils and therefore these do not make the reason of belief simply as they would have it because the Church was so long without them 4. Though the universal comprehends particulars yet a particular doth not comprehend an universal therefore whatsoever assent is due to tradition universal is not due to tradition particular of Rome This is their trick to build all upon the common ground of the whole Church and then to inclose the universal Church within the walls of Rome This we must enter our plea against upon all occasions 5. We see they are come off unto some latitude in their conception of faith because the last resolution in this quest of faith they make to be thus and they would do so because they would do so and again because it had been more folly not to accept of this Church's Commission to teach them infallibly all truths So that now the acquiscence of the soul in the deep mistery of faith must be terminated and determined upon rhe variable point and principle of prudence and that which must eternaly setle our mind in the first and last ground of infallibility must be this we do so because we will do so or because it were folly not to believe So then since currente rota the discourse is come to this let us have our liberty to believe as we do believe because we see it to be folly for ought can be seen by them to accept the Church's Commission to teach infallibly all truths Sixthly if they say all truths then they seem to be fallen from their former Concession and also Stapleton's that some truths may be believed without necessity of the Church Seventhly as for the immortality of the soul which they insist in to have been believed because God said it by the Church we say easily that this might with lesse difficulty be received from the Church because it is surely probable and some will say demonstrable by reason and therefore is not only asserted by Plato who might have it from the Jewes by redundance in Aegypt whither he and Pythagoras and some others travelled for wisdom as Justin Martyr witnesseth but also in effect as I think by Aristotle And also here certainly they must be put to distinguish betwixt the Church of Rome and the whole Church or else his words are not true or else Pope John the 22. did not belong to the Church for he did not commend to others the Faith of the Immortality of the Soul And yet he goes on Which Commission to teach them infallibly all truth they knew by tradition to have been ever accepted as Divine by all good people This reason if I may say so is surely full of it self but not solid for it doth in effect run round again and the Faith of the Church is proved by the Church for they make all good people to be convertible with the Church and therefore they make the holy Catholick Church to be the visible But how then is the Church Regula regulata the Rule ruled as hath been confessed before Secondly must we content our selves with this in the grand concernment of faith because the Church did accept this Commission as Divine which we know by Tradition but how shall we know this Tradition to be of the Church before we know the Church Are they advised of this then must we come to be assured of the Doctrine before we be assured of the Church And this Doctrine we must be assured of independently of the Church because we cannot know the Church but by the Doctrine and by the Doctrine of the Scripture too as S. Austin discourseth against the Donatists Thirdly if all good people know by tradition this Commission to be divine then my Adversary needed not to have pinched the last resolution of faith so as to have said they believed because they would do so or because it had been meer folly not to accept this commission for though universal Tradition cannot transcend its sphere unto a causality of proper faith divine yet hath it more reason in it than to make a generall beliefe arbitrary or to preserve the act of it from folly in the negative A Divine assurance will not be compared with a negative prudence but universal tradition doth surpass it We had best then compound the difference betwixt himself by a kind of division thus negative prudence was suitable to his former proof Aqua ascendit quantum descendit but Divine assurance which I suppose he urgeth by tradition is necessary for the question For the certainty of faith is such as cui non potest subesse falsum in which there can be no
effect Christans though not in denomination That which followes was cast in by me ex abundanti and not as such a decretory argument namely besides what may be supposed by the baptism of whole families And therefore he needed not to have said it is no evident consequence It was never intended for such Valeat quantum valere potest And yet if it be as probable or more that in all those families complexively there were some at least if but one or two Infants this consequence I think I may say is better then any they have given us to prove their infallibility At the end of this number he saies I insist not upon the authorities I alledged out of St. Austin St. Chrys because I deal with one who little regards authority confessed to be the Fathers Ans He might first have answered what I said to his citation of St. Austin but it seems by his neglect either that the Fathers are not for him or he not for the Fathers or indeed both and the latter because the former He is not for the Fathers because they are not for him And let them consider that of St. Austin in his 4. b. de Bap. contra Don. 28. ch Tamen veraciter conjicere possumus quid valeat in parvulis baptismi Sacramentum ex circumcisione carnis quam prior populus accepit Notwithstanding we may truly guesse what the Sacrament of Baptism does avail in infants out of the circumcision of the flesh which the former people received And Bellarmin must think Scripture good against Anabaptists but not for us against them who make better use of it as a tradition N. 62. And now to make an end of his long Chap. as he saies himself and I say so too but it might have been made shorter by him by halfe he saies he concludes as I would have him namely that these points were and ought to be determined by the Church upon necessity of Salvation He saies now This I prove by this argument This point and all the former are necessary to be believed with an infallible assent but we cannot believe any point with an infallible assent unless it be determined by infallible authority And the authority of the Scripture hath not determined these points then since no other infallible authority can be found on Earth if we deny the authority of the Church to be infallible her authority must needs be infallible Ans after a long chap. to make his word good he makes as long an argument which might have been put into two lines But part of his book was to be length But we answer in short first to the major proposition if he meanes when they are believed they are to be believed with an infallible assent we grant it or when they are clearely proposed are so to be believed we grant it but if he means it thus that this point and all the former are necessary to be believed with an infallible assent upon necessity of Salvation it is denied And he hath not nor can prove it 2. As to his assuming that the authority of the Scriptures hath not determined these points we say first that so farre as they are necessary they are determined in Scripture And 2. they are not so clearly determined in Scripture because they are not so necessary And yet we may say as St. Austin in such a case about intellectuall vision lib. 12 de gen ad literam cap. 25 Aliud est errare in his quae videt aliud errare quia non videt We do not erre in seing them in Scriptures but we do erre because we do not see them To end then Scotus proposeth this question As Mr. Hooker notes utrùm cognitio supernaturalis necessaria viatori sit sufficienter tradita in Sacra Scriptura whether supernaturall knowledg necessary to a Travailler be sufficiently delivered in the Holy Scripture and he concludes affirmatively And so may we 3. And for overplus if these points were necessary to be referred to the determination of the Church we could easily dato non concesso remove them from the Roman Court and try them by the universal Church of all places and times with which universal Church the Roman is not converted and by which it is not like to be converted CHAP. IV. The Church is not an infallible Iudge The first Number is a Preface depending upon hopes of the former discourse But to this we say nothing save only that they shall never be rewarded for such hope unless they can prove their word to be the Word of God FIrst those words Matthew 16.19 spoken to St. Peter upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it allow the Church a security from ever admitting any doctrine so pernicious that the gates of hell may prevaile against her Ans first though these words were spoken to St. Peter yet it doth not hence follow that they were spoken of St. Peter exclusively to the rest And then the Fathers as before understood it of his faith not of his person and of his faith objectively not subjectively And then 3. this respects not only the Church repraesentative but the Church formall against which principally the gates of hell do not prevaile and so the words runne handsomly for the Church that the words allow the Church security from ever admitting any doctrine so pernicious that the gates of hell may prevaile against her And therefore upon these considerations we flatly deny to him the following words that this promise made to the Church is that which mainely makes for my purpose and surely that which follows makes for us and may be a fourth answer to the former words whether the Church be built upon St. Peter and his successours or upon the faith of St. Peter is not the thing I chiefely aime at my aime is to find a Church built on a rock so strong that no errour shall ever overthrow it So then if we assume that the invisible Church is such we are agreed Only my adversary seems to have more mind to retreat then to retract But my adversary will have it to be understood of the representative Church because he saies he is now assured the Church shall never be a nest of errours idolatrous superstitious wickedly assuming the authority of an infallible Tribunal without sufficient warrant all or any of those things would bring her to the gates of hell they being all damnable impieties Ans Now we shall see that this makes not for him He was for the Roman Church was he not And yet will not here meddle how this concerns the Roman Church then how doth this make for him In the former treatise of his this Text was meant of St. Peter and his successours and now he will not meddle with what concernes St. Peter or his successours Will these things here be reconciled till Tishby comes 2. This makes for me not only that he is not willing as
may not the Church of England have an Authority not limited c. And what need then of running to another Church for more authority But neither is his Text in the Hebrewes well understood or else not well aplied in his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For the establishment of a better Covenant upon better promises is not certainly intended to have respect to the visible Church for discipline but to the invisible Church for salvation It respects Christ as the Great High Priest to save his Church by the sacrificing of himself once upon the Cross for us not as King of his Church by way of an externall policy as if the Goverment of his Church were part of his Kingdome and of his Gospell If so they give the right hand of fellowship to the other Disciplinarian But also he takes it ill that the text should be limited to case of trespass betwixt Brother and Brother and he thinks rather it should belong to the cases of heresie which is a trespass committed by one Brother against all his Brothers and their dearest Mother the Church yea St. Thomas calls Schism of which heresie is alwaies guilty the highest crime a-against the whole Community Ans It is one thing to say what the text intends another to say what it may be by discourse accommodated to The direct respect of the text in the ordinary sense of the letter is clearly carried to case of trespass betwixt Brother and Brother And the Pontifician by his principles and use is ingaged to the sense of the letter prinipally But 2. dato non concesso that it should also respect case of Heresie notwithstanding also that the terms let him be to thee a Heathen or a Publican we rather referre to the Jewish Church than the Christian yet cannot he have from hence what he would namely the Churches infallibility of Censure in points of Faith For though the Church did infallibly know on which side the truth did stand in every point of Faith and therefore what was opposite thereunto for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he said and therefore that such a doctrine was to be condemned as Heretical yet since though the Church do proceed secundum allegata et probata it may be mistaken in the fact as he confesseth it may erre in the Censure as to a particular person and how then is such a person bound to subscribe to such a Censure as just because he cannot be bound to assent to that which is false as he also lately confessed It is true in civil causes though the sentence be injust I may and must pay the amercement there being no Law against the course of Law and so also in Ecclesiastical cases he that is in justly excommunicated must abide the Censure but all the Authority under Heaven can never make a man beleive in his Conscience that it is a just Censure when he knows himself not to be guilty of the fact namely publishing of an heretical Doctrine and therefore all that can be exacted by man in this case 〈◊〉 passive obedience which the Person may yield though the Conscience doth not yeild that it is a just Censure So that the text is yet preserved in its integrity against binding the Conscience to believe whatsoever is done by the Church to be right and just After this he would winde himself off gradually from supposing any infallibility of particular Churches that so all at length might be ascribed to their Church in solidum for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he said And the Authority he would have to fall upon the Pope and a Council yet he expresseth one Head of the Church and the supream Prelat of the Church So then Before when there was a professed occasion to dispute the point whether the Pope were Head of the Church he was shie and cautious and uncategorical now by the by and under the winde he can assert it so that he may not be bound to prove it We see then what reason they have to afford Prudence a good place in Religion Nullum numen ab est si sit prudentiarum And the main exercise of Ecclesiastical authority the key is laid upon his shoulder He is bound to use the fullness of his power to suppress the arising heresie Now surely they are bound ingenuously to speak out whether they mean this fulness of his Authority of all the Authority he hath or of all Authority that the Church hath There is a fulness of the Fountain there is a fulness of the Vessel Do they allow him the fulness of the Vessel So indeed the Trent Council seemed rather in a good part thereof to incline when they urged so much to have the title of the Council to be established The Representative of the whole Church for had this proceeded his power had been sunk in their power But if he be the Head of the Church my Adversary must allow him the fulness of the Fountain then the controversie is determined betwixt the Jesuits and the Sorbonists and the latter are cast in the suit But then what need of a Council towards infallibility when he hath all the Authority in himself as being the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And then my Adversary hath not pleased the Court and the Jesuite in joyning the Council as partners in the Authority Nor do the words ensuing bear good respect to the Pope as Head of the Church namely that he may forbid if he feareth danger in the Doctrine that no such Doctrine may be published until the Church shall think it fit Are not these diminuent terms of the Head indeed almost comminuent if we may say so as if the Head of the universal Church the ordinary Pastour and Vicar of Christ Successor of St. Peter could not presently see that there was danger in heretical Doctrine or could not see whether it were heretical doctrine until the Church shall think it fit I had thought the Pope had been an Independent and should not have depended upon the Church for a final resolution at a point heretical And if the Church must meet in a Council to consider of it and all Popes be as disaffected to a Council as some were to the Trent Council what shall become of the people in this danger of heresie I had thought a Council had been but the vicar of Christ His Counsail and though he did condiscend so far to make use of their Counsail yet he could do all alone by his own Authority We heard before that particular Prelats had Authority not limited and must my Adversaries Supreme Prelat be bound to wait for a General Council And then all must be as St. Paul saith Heb. 13.17 Obey their Prelats So he Ans This he means of Prelats not in confuso but in conventu And to these infallibility should be annexed So then Those Prelats who are here meant are infallible Particular Prelats are here meant therefore they are infallible and so there will be no need either
thus whatsoever requires infallible assent must have an infallible Authority Diverss points not proposed clearly in Scripture the Church requires an infallible assent to therefore she must have infallible Authority we answer granting the major which yet they have no reason to urge unless they had more firm Principles that the assumption may be true de facto but not de jure And then again It is yet denied that ever the Church Universal did ever exact this As to the right hereof she must prove her infallibility and Authority too hereunto as to the fact it must be proved by our Adversaries Therefore since I am respondent I may conclude thus Things necessary to Salvation are plainly set down in Scripture those points are not plainly set down in Scripture saies he therefore I conclude they are not necessary Here he makes a return to my Argument against him N. 18. that if that must be Judge which can hear him and me and be heard by him and me then Tradition is thus excluded from being the Judge here he distinguisheth It is the Church who proposeth these Traditions and not the Traditions which are our judge Ans This is easily taken away for according to their Principles Tradition must be Judge of the Church If their former Argument be good that we must not ultimately be assured in point of Faith by the Scripture because we do not know what is Scripture but by the Church so also we cannot ultimately be assured in point of Faith by the Church because we cannot tell which is the Church but by Tradition And if it be Judge of the Scripture in the Canon of it as they must say then surely it may be Judge of the Church because as before by the Fathers opinion the Church must be proved by Scripture Again by Tradition was the Faith of Christian Doctrine bred in the minds of the Barbarian Nations as we have it said before by my Adversary therefore Tradition must be the infallible Judge or else they had not the same Faith which the Roman contends for by an infallible Judge or if they had then there are more infallible Judges or Faith may be had without an infallible Judge or Traditions and the Church are all one and then the distinction is none And yet also this answer of his I did provide for before in these words but you say the Church doth determine hereby by Tradition then may it determin by Scripture more securely and more universally And to this he replies nothing but holds the conclusion From hence he skips to answer me about that which I opposed to his Judge exclusively to any other I urged that of St. Paul that an heretick is condemned by himself namely as I discoursed by the Law of God within him by vertue of Conscience which can and does and should apply the truths of God to the censure and condemnation of errour in us c. To this he saies he is not an heretick but an infidel who is told by his own Conscience that he gain-saith the Scripture Ans First Then the Scriptures are so clearly the Word of God that an Infidel may be told thereof by his own Conscience If not so then his words have no sense If so then may we see the Scripture to be the Word of God by its own light as the Heathens did the Law of nature and then he contradicts his own former discourse Secondly Saint Paul speaks not of an Infidel but in terminis terminantibus of an heretick who supposeth the Scriptures to be the Word of God though by consequence he denies it in Hypothesie as to the point of heresie So that the Text cannot be so put off And though every Christian is readier to die than to disbelieve any one saying of the Scripture yet the heretick who supposeth the Scripture in Thesi and in general may yet deny it in the application against him and for this he is to be rejected because he goeth against his own Principles of Scripture which do condemn his heresie in his own conscience though outwardly he opposeth And he helps his cause no better with another shift When St. Paul wrote those words the whole Canon of the Scripture was not written and until the whole Canon was written your own Doctors grant the Church to have been the infallible judge of controversies Ans If he takes whole so as to be understood in order to the Canon I grant that the whole Canon was not then written but if he takes it in opposition to a sufficient direction by what was then written I deny it there was then as much written as was simply necessary to Salvation for how could St. Paul otherwise say to Tim. That the Scriptures then were able to make him wise unto Salvation thus I distinguish of the former part but then 2. the latter I doe deny that our awn Doctours do say that the Church was the infallible Judge of controversies until the whole Canon of the Scriptures was written for then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Pharises had been infallible No the word of God was infallible when it was not written but not the Church Therefore he mistakes the purport of finishing the Canon which was not ever held by us to cease the infallibility of the Church but to accomplish the matter of Scripture and so it doth exclude verbum non Scriptum Infallibility of the Church was never held but the Canon of Scripture was allwaies sufficient providing allwaies that the Church in this consideration be meant contradistinctly to the writers of Scripture Neither needs he to wonder at my saying that the Church then was not sufficiently formed thereunto namely to a definition of what was to be held therein To this he saies the Church was formed before St Pauls conversion and before his conversion the number of Desciples was multiplied Ans The terme Church is very ambiguous He takes it here of the Church vertual or of the Church representative or of the Church diffusive The Church vertual which the Iesuits say is the Pope was not yet formed The Church Representative as they say in a Council confirmed by the Pope was not yet formed There was no council General till after three hundred yeares nor Pope so soon in their sense A Church diffusive there was but this serves not his turn for we must speake of such a Church formed so that the heretique should be condemned for contradicting the definition of the Church Now the definition of the Church according to my Adversary is by the Church Representative and this was not then formed Then again to take his own words either the Church was not then formed most compleatly with all things necessary to infallible direction to the true faith or it was Let them now say which they will Then no necessity of Pope and Council yea no necessity of Pope or Council If it was not compleatly formed then my former answer obtains And besides if
he had been condemned by himself because by the Church then had he been condemned by himself extrinsecally to himself or he and the Church must have been all one therefore whether he had the doctrine from the Church or immediately from any one of the Apostles yet was he condemned by that doctrin as being impressed upon his own Conscience So that I have as much as I can desire by this discourse namely that is possible for us to be Judged and condemned within our selves of Heresie without an externall Judge which then was not fully and exactly I am sure constituted according to the mind of our Adversaries although in purity of doctrine the Church was better then then ever she was since that time N. 19 In this he begins more solemnly to tell us what he means by the name of the Church and wherein consists the power of infallibility in a Decree or definition of the Church And first he tels us who are to be excluded from a decisive voice Children and women and laymen and inferiour Clergy thus he proceeds first by exclusions as they do in the choise of a Pope And then he goes on by way of a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so he makes the subject of the power of this Decree to be the prime pastours Praelats of the Church assembled together in a lawfull General Council with their Chief Pastour and Head the Bishop of Rome This the progress of this Paragraph Well but our question is of the praedicate whether the Church thus constituted is infallible in its Decrees and therefore since he here hath no argument he hath bound us not to have an answer And yet may we note that if he means the formation of a Church to be thus we can more clearely contradict him in what he said formerly that the Church was formed before St. Pauls conversion It was not so formed And yet 2. We may as well dispute here the subject of the question whether the Church thus formed is infallible in its decrees as he disputes the an sit of Scripture when we were upon the praedicate whether the Scripture be sufficient to Salvation And surely I may do this legally because I am a respondent and I may do it also more boldly because I know they cannot make good the praedicate that this Church is thus formed infallible in its Decres And as to his exclusions then we could confront him with the opinion of Alphonsus de Castro who would have had a chapter against him for his exclusions since he maks the acceptation of the diffused Church to be necessary to inerrability And as to the Chief Pastour and Head he speakes it cum privilegio surely as if not only what the Pope said was not to be questioned but also what is said of him They will never prove that there ever was to be any such Chief Pastour and Head of the Church universal dejure nor can they ever prove that there was de facto any one so called till Boniface the third who had the Title granted him by Phocas But non fuit sic ab initio And the rule is good Errores ad sua principia reducere est refellere And therefore either the Church was not allwaies infallible or was infallible without Councils because for above three hundred yeares was no General Council and therefore why doth he urge the necessity of Councils unto infallibility And when there was Councils afterwards till Trent Council inclusively either the Councils were fallible with a Pope or might be infallible without him because till Boniface the third there was no such Pope as Head or Head as Pope And therefore why do they urge the necessity of a Pope for their infallibility This he did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in before and now should have been proved since he knew that this is not granted on both sides as the Scripture is to be the Word of God And he that is a seeker of his religion will never find the Pope to be in the Church as a King in his kingdome who is no part of the representative properly And if he would have the Pope no more than part of the Representative he should be no more Head of the Church than as a Speaker in an Assembly And how should he be then the Church virtual as the high Romanists doth speak of him And therefore the Pope in the time of the Trent Council would not suffer that title of the Council to proceed that it should be called the Representative because though he and his Courtiers esteemed him the Head of the Church and so should have been superiour to the body of the Church yet he conceived that they intended to take him in confusely in the Representative and so to exclude his Head-ship But secondly He then allows a man to be a seeker of his Religion then he doth allow him that liberty which he sometimes hath disputed against namely to exercise his judgement of discretion in matters of Religion for he would have him most prudently judge himself bound to to joyn her the Church in Faith being convinced that she directed most securely in Faith So this is theâ—r sense they allow discretion to joyn with them but not to differ Thirdly Should he be bound to joyn himself to the whole Church or not If to the whole then to that part locally which most agrees with the whole in Doctrine and discipline and practice But then can he not most prudently joyn himself to the Roman Church because that hath gone away from the Catholique in all those particulars And therefore we may conclude it to be our wisdom to find our direction in Faith most securely in the Scripture N. 20. This number he spends in the power of Councils To such power I made exceptions he would here remove them The first about the uncertainty of the irregularity of the Pope To this he saies he to whom the Church submitteth in calling the Council and whom the Church admitteth as her lawful Head to preside he is right these acts do supply all defects in the election But first Suppose he be not a Priest Can the Churches submission or admission of him make him a regular Pope And this That he is a Priest they cannot be sure of by certainty of Faith according to their Principles unless they had an omniscience to know the intention of the Ordainer and whether he was a right Bishop or not Secondly If so then Cajaphas was a right High Priest as before and yet he erred with the Council Therefore a Pope with the Council may erre Caiaphas was submitted to was admitted by the assembly of the Jews but this before And as to that he saies put the case of a Pope defining with a lawful Council and then prove him fallible if you can We answer First it seems then he would not stand to the maintaining of a Popes infallibility without a Council And so then he and the Jesuits must
Apostolical or that those who bring new doctrine are as well inspired as the Apostles the Roman Church shall now be Apostolical And if there were now as great a necessity of the infallible direction of the Church as there was in the times of the Apostles by them then why should not the Apostolical office have continued in the number of twelve and so all the Apostles should have had successours which they must not say who maintain the Monarchy of the Church Neither doth that instance of Iohn the Baptist teaching the Meâ—â—as which also the Scripture teacheth come up to the case First Because Iohn the Baptist was but a singular person but the Church now is considered under a promise of continual succession and as is pretended by them with the perpetual gift of infallibility therefore though there was Scripture then besides Iohns Testimony yet what need of it now if there be a constant infallibility in the Church Secondly There is a difference in the case ex parte Scripturae in regard oâ— Scripture which was not then compleated therefore there might be more necessity of St. Iohns Testimony and of the voice from heaven and of the Testimony of miracles But now the Canon is consigned what need of the infallible direction of the Church and if there be an infallible direction standing in the Church what need of a standing rule it may serve for a commonitorium as the Cardinal So the Scripture shall give us but an application of the Churches doctrine The Scripture that must not be a suâ—ficient rule the Church that is the direct and plain way that fools cannot erre They may erre by the Scripture they cannot erre by the Church Therefore in effect not only will there be no need of Scripture but there would be need of none But more closely That which is not of use without the Church and that which the Church may be without is not necessary The Scripture is of no use without the Church and the Church may be without Scripture Therefore according to their premises the Scripture should not be necessary and how farre is it from blasphemy to say that the Scripture is not necessary If to accuse Scripture be to accuse God as Nilus before Then to say there was no need of Scripture is to accuse God of inspiring so many Pen-men for no necessary purpose For although after all means of Faith still millions do not believe as he saies yet since according to their doctrine no sense of Scripture in point of Faith is to be believed but as taken from the Church since the Word not written takes up so much of necessary matter since the pâ—tfecter and the wiser are to be sublimated by Traditions since the common people are not to be conversant in Scripture in a knowen tongue what necessary purpose doth the Scripture serve to It is true superflua non nocent as the rule is and Utile per inutile non vitiatur true But yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 according to their principles the Scripture will be superfluous For that which is more than is necessary is not necessary that which is not necessary what is it Therefore if any of their men should be found to be traditores Bibliorum as some were of old the Roman Donatists would never make a separation from them He goes on The Church is not more Enthusiastical now than she was for four thousand years before she had all the promises which Christ made her of an assistance which should be at least as speacill and full as she ever had before Ans This is positively no answer but somewhat by compare we press it The Church in that time did not de communi challenge immediate inspiration therefore that Church which doth so now is more Enthusiastical Secondly It is a begging of the question since there is not now that need after the Canon is compleated Thirdly We return them their argument what assistance the Church had formerly it hath now the Church formerly had not de communi in fallible assistance therefore not now For the Prophets and the Apostles and the writers of the Scripture are not rationally to be included in the common account of the Church in our case Let them chuse which they will stand to If they put them into the promiscuous account of the Church let them now shew us such a Church If they account them extraordinary let them shew ordinarily such And he confounds himself in what follows Before she delivered only what she had received by tradition and by Scripture She hath received Scripture by Tradition too hath she not Why doth he then divide Scripture from Tradition in the way of its coming to us For the chief reckoning they make to us of Scripture is upon the credit of Tradition But he means Tradition ex parte materiae it may be because they think Tradition conteins other matter than Scripture equally to be believed But this is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In Interpreting which according to the sense truly intended by the Holy Ghost the same Holy Ghost doth assist her so that here is no new Revelation claimed to be made to her but an infallible assistance to propose faithfully what was formerly revealed Ans He cannot well clear himself of Enthusiasm upon the account of Tradition Any thing beside the word written equally to be believed is matter of Enthusiasm But they pretend somewhat beside the word written equally to be believed therefore are they in danger of Enthusiasm And I do not see well how they can answer it But now he endeavours to purge himself of this accusation in point of interpretation of Scripture They say they do not interpret Scripture by revelation but by infallible assistance Well But how shall we blind souls be assured infallibly of this infallible assistance We may not examine it by the judgment of private discretion may we If we may then this is gained Must we believe it Yes Why Because God hath it to be his will that we should absolutely believe the Church Shew me where By the Church that is in question By the Scriptures what Texts Those produced But the question is whether they are rightly interpreted according to the true sense What will they say now Nothing but the Church hath infallible assistance And this they must believe by a revelation without Scripture and this is an Enthusiasm And the Roman church pretending this priviledge above other Church's makes it a private revelation Again though there are several waies of revelation yet I would aske how many waies there are of infallible assistance distinguished from revelation let them tell us or else conclude against themselves that they must have the sense of Scripture interpreted by revelation because by infallible assistance The pen-men of Scripture they had infallible assistance but that was by revelation Let us know what infallible assistance there is without a revelation specially since Stapelton and some others likely will have the
definitions of Councils to be prophetical If they be concluded by discourse then are they fallible if their conclusions be prophetical then by revelation But also these terms to propose faithfully what was formerly revealed are somewhat obscurely proposed Doth he mean it of the sense of Scripture Then where was it formerly revealed if it was clearely revealed what need of a Council to see that which others may see if not how was the sense revealed to them infallibly without a revelation If he meanes what was formerly revealed of Traditions those are beside the word of God and therefore these do not belong to interpreting of Scripture And yet also the Church hath not been so faithful in proposing these as hath been noted before Or doth he mean it of traditive interpretations as they are called but where are these to be found who gives us their number formal and material Let them then take home to their own Tents those that claim full assurance by the spirit in any point We differ from them much first because we doe not pretend any such necessity of ful assurance in every point but the Roman must otherwise what need of an infallible living Judge 2. We pretend not to any praerogative above other Churches as to the knowing the sense of Scripture they do Therefore they urge that of St. Cyprian in allusion to what St. Paul said of the Church of the Romans then for their Church now that perfidiousness cannot have accesse to them not considering besides what hath been said to it before what Nilus comments upon it that the Apostle spoke it of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the time that was past not of the future And thirdly we do use meanes towards the finding out the true sense but they must have it by an extraordinary assistance of the Spirit which needs not means if they will have it by infallible assistance in places of controversie Therefore Stapleton thinks rationally that conclusions from discourse cannot be infallble and therefore he will have them to be Prophetical and that will be by revelation This number receives again my reinforcements of my answer to that Text forenamed about the Church the pillar and ground of truth as we ordinarily read it I said it respects the office of the Church according to the rule of the School-man He saies again No it respects the Authority And here he does 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for he offers no reason why it should be taken in his way For as to that which he urgeth here that it is called the ground of truth it is not solidly objected for the term in the Greek is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that which is to keep firm and stable the prop the support and this fairly imports an act ex officio to keep up and uphold the truth He saies also it suits well with his sense to give order to Timothy to carry himself well that the Church might be thought to be infallible so as not to make men believe it improbable that God should assist infallibly such a Church Ans The strength of this Argument himself destroies He is afraid to make good life an Argument of infallibility because he saies it is a pitiful argument since Solomon the Idolaters was assisted with infallibility Well But let them first take my sense with the rule of the School-men and so compare them with his reason which is but a pitiful argument and then judge whether it be not best to take my account upon the place Secondly If badness of life be a prejudice to infallibility then since they cannot deny that some of their chief Pastours have been in life scandalous their infallibility will be scandalized and so cannot be such a way as that fools cannot erre as he urged before Thirdly If this satisfies the multitude that those who are to instruct them are of unblamable life yet this though it be enough ad faciendum populum yet this is not enough to judicious men who look for satisfaction upon solid principles nor can this make Faith unto the people of their infallibility but a better opinion thereof Fourthly As for Bishops and Deacons which he saies should be so qualified by the order of St Paul to and for the credit of such a Church he does not there find in St. Pauls Epistle any Cardinal Bishop or Cardinal Presbyter or Cardinal Deacon in whom the power of infallibility according to them should chieflly consist and therefore that Text doth not positively serve their turn Fiftly I had thought infallibility could have defended it self without the credit of a good life since the grace of gifts and the gift of grace are two things I said moreover what need of such instructions which St. Paul gives to Timothy if the Church were infallible since infallible assistance is immediate He answers here this is a strange consequence the Church is infallible in defending points in a general Council Ergo no man needeth instructions for his private good behaviour Ans But first the instructions he gives to Timothy were such as respected him in his place for the ordering of the Church in rebus fidei in matters of Faith as appears by the summe of Christian Doctrine which he gave him Great is the mystery of godliness c. Secondly By my Adversaries opinion there was no such need of instructions for a private life since it is a pitiful argument to derogate from infallibility by a bad life Thirdly Neither was Timothy I hope in their account a private man After this he hath two questions in the clouds Was it so for the first two thousand yeares before the Scripture was written Ans This is imediately subjoyned to the other before and therefore should seeme to be univocal to it And then we say two things first he supposeth that which is to be proved that the Church in that space was absolutely infallible 2. much less was it infallible in Councils as he now pretends which then were not as he now would have them Therefore from hence it should follow that if the Church be infallible it may be infallible without Councils and this is against him Another question is this Or do we perhaps teach this infallible assistance to be communicated to every one immediately Ans He speakes gravely as antient men were wont with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as he notes in his Rhetoriques But why should he think we think he doe For the Church by him might be thought to be infallible though Timothy was not because according to him infallibility is in a representative And though Timothy might have been President of a Council yet was he not to be according to my Adversary personally infallible but as Head of the Council Yea he could not be Head of a Council then for this was according to my adversaries reserved for St. Peter And yet infallible assistance was communicated to every of
either abstractly from the speaker or complexely with the speaker in the former it is considered with respect to the matter and so he said well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we are not to look at so much the author as the matter in the latter respect it is respective to the motive and so I am more induced by the Church though not determined And therfore as to those termes to whose saying you would give an infallible assent when you see that which he saith to be conformable to Scripture we say that the termâ— saying is distinguishable into the object purely or into the object with the act and authour In the former there is no difference in the latter there is we may believe that which is said when we do not believe him that saies it And so may we believe rather the Church whose office it is to propose truth as he confesseth it is not the Divells Neither did we by these answers smother up any thing which clearly overthroweth our replie who say we must follow the Church onely so far as we see her follow Scripture That which he saith here doth no way weaken our replie It hath been answered before and the strength of it broken For first though they could not see at all how far the Church followed the Scripture for the first two thousand years and the barbarous Nations never having seen the Scripture did truely believe doth this hinder us from holding now that we are to believe the Church in points of faith no further then we see grounds for what they said out of Scripture take it of faith divine and in things of faith it is yet good And their instances do not evacuate it Distingue tempora distinguish the times God might in that time and season of immediate revelation work then a faith immediately which now is not reasonable to expect ordinarily as appears by the first Chap. of the Ep. to the Hebrews the first ver Privilegia paucâ—rum non faciunt regulam communem Secondly the Faith of the barbarous nations was not terminated in the Church as if they had believed the Church and therefore believed that which was said by them But was terminated in the matter which was said by the Church The Church was instrumental to the knowledge of the matter and might be instrumental as to dispose them for faith But the authority of the Church was not the formal cause of the act of faith And Knotts himself is loath to assert it And this is that which Tertullian hath said non ex persona fides sed ex fide persona aestimanda est We are not to esteem the doctrine by the person but the person by the doctrine And the tradition which St. Irenaeus speaks of was the sum of the Christian Faith which is in Scripture So he as before and so St. Cyril of Hierusalem vnderstands it as may appear by that of Cyril in his fourth Catech. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we must not deliver any thing in the divine and holy mysteries of faith without the divine Scriptures This is the Epilogue of the Chap. and is of use onely to tell me what he hath done I think not done before N. 38. and this is all the answer he gives me for taking away what he had said out of two places of Scripture forementioned towards infallibility Before he referred me for satisfaction to the due place here he referrs me back again And as for any reply to my answer out of the Fathers or my use of them he saies to me you know why I resolve to pass them Yes particularly why he saies nothing more to what I said about St. Austins testimony in his Epistle against the Manichee If I may be interpreter it is thus resolved he had good reason to pass them because they pass him And so we have made an end of his long but not hard Chapter CHAP. V. No Church is our Iudge infallible then not the Roman This Chapter which concerns the Hypothesis should injustice have been longer but he reduceth the proof of it to a small pittance and if all the Churches which submit not themselves to the Bishop of Rome as their supreme Pastour be of no better proportion it will be Catholick for all that do submit but not for all But since he is so short in this we will be even with him and bring all he saies in this second Treatise for so some times he calles it into one Syllogism the Church is the Judge infallible appointed in businesses of Religion No other but the Roman is this Church therefore To the proposition we have said enough before He would now make good the assumption or praesumption as we might speak supposing the proposition to be demonstrated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore he quarrels with me because we except against his supsition of it It is true had the major been a maxim irrefragable then there had been more reason to blame us for exception against it and for not applying our selves in present address to the minor but since we see no cause nor the Churches of God why the proposition should be swallowed we call upon him to make good the thesis that there is a Church appointed as infallible Judge in businesses of Religion and therefore we told him that he might as well prove he had right to Utopia because he only claimes it whereas he should first prove the An sit whether there be such a place And therefore if he would have had us say nothing to the questioning of the supposition he should have made it stronger first and then should not have concluded bravingly that therefore all he had said of the Church was to be applied to the Roman no other being infallible as in the former treatise num 28 Well but he must prove his minor N. 2. because all other Churches do not lay claime to this infallibility and are demonstrated to be fallible we grant the Antecedent without any proof and his proof was not so good as his proposition But therefore it belongs to them to be infallible we deny the consequence We deny the Title upon the claime And he is angry because we make his plea from the claim to be weak And the weaknes of it appeares in that it is weaker grounded upon a true supposition nor is it very sound in the proceeding of the consequence in the first regard we say debile fundamentum fallit opus And therefore since that is one of his principles his conclusion must be naught as before His consequence he proveth thus the Protestant Chucrh and all other Churches different from the Roman do Iudge themselves acknowledge themselves declare and profess themselves to be fallible and that according to infallible Scripture If then any of these Churches be infallible in what they Iudge and declare for truth grounded in Scripture they are infallible in this their Iudging and declaring themselves to be fallible therefore infallibly they
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 than an implicit explication of an Affirmative by a Negative The immutable God can preserve mutable creatures from actual mutation ibid. thereby implying that the Immutable cannot communicate his incommunicable Attribute of Immutability to any creature even because he cannot possibly perfect a creature into Himself But from actual mutation he can preserve any Creature as well an Ignorant single man as a whole Church Catholick Thus by endeavouring to uphold Mr. Cressy does throughly destroy his Doctrine All he saith coming to this That however God only is undeceivable yet he is able to preserve his deceivable creatures from being actually deceiv'd Sed quid hoc ad Iphicli Boves The Question is not Whether God can preserve a Church from being actually in error for so he can and often does particular Members of his Church But whether de facto he hath granted an Inerrability or an Impossibility of erring unto that which they call the Roman Catholick Church Not whether the Church can be actually false in her opinions but whether or no she is Infallible or exempted by God from the passive power of giving false Judgement in points of Faith Will Mr. Cressy so confound an Adjective in Bilis with a participle derived from the passive preterperfect Tense as either to argue à non actu ad non potentiam or else to pass over from the one unto the other Will he argue that Adam before his fall was Impeccable because he yet was preserved from actual sin or that the Church was Infallible in the Apostles own Times because she was not erroneous untill she was He cannot sure be so destitute either of Logick or Grammar skill I think it rather his skill to dissemble both as finding no other way to dispute a whole Chapter for such a Doctrine unless he either begg's or forsakes the Question But now to give him more Advantage than he is mindfull to give himself when he allows so great a privilege to the present Governours of the Church in every Age whom he will have to be the living and speaking Judges to whom without contradiction all particular Churches as well as persons Ubi supra p. 97. must meekly yield up their Assent Let us allow it to be his meaning not that These are undeceivable but that God doth still preserve them from being actually deceiv'd Was not Pope Hildebrand himself the supreme speaking Judge when yet the * Imperial Statut. apud Goldast Tom. 1. p. 74. Council at Wormes did set him out as a Brand of Hell Conc. Constantien A. D. 1414. Seff 11. Edit Bin. To. 7. 1036. Notoriè criminosus de homicidio veneficio pertinâ—x Haereticus Simoniacus contra Articulum de Resurrectione mortuorum dogmatizavit Et paulò superius cum Uxore fratris sui cum sanctis moniatibus Incestum commisit p. 1035. Was not John the 23. the supreme speaking Judge of Mr Cressy's then present visible Church when yet he openly deny'd the Immortality of the soul and for That with other crimes was condemn'd by the Council then held at Constance Were not John the 22. and Anastasius the 2. the supreme speaking Judges in their several Times who yet were both stigmatiz'd for the Crime of Heresie Let Mr Cressy now speak like an honest man Were such superiours as these then living and speaking to conclude all controversies to Interpret Scripture and the Fathers to put to silence all particular Churches to subdue mens mindes to an Assent and this under the penalty of their being cut off from the body of Christ Let him read his own dictates p. 97. It will but little mend the matter to say The Pope is but one and that He spake of All Superiours Because besides that they may All have their Byasses and Errors as well as He in case they are all consulted with as they never are 'T is very evident that the Pope like the Sun among the Starres is more than All in all Cases The greatest part of those Councils which they are pleas'd to call General have been indeed little better than the meer properties of their Popes which that I may not seem to say as one that loves to speak sharply but rather as compell'd by their own Accompts of them I shall here give an Instance in one or two In the last Lateran Council under Julius the 2. A brief Accompt of the last Lateran Council and Leo the 10. The Holy Scriptures at the first Session are humbly laid down at his Holinesses Feet And an Oath being administred are formally toucht by the Officials The Pope in that Session is call'd The Prince of all the world and in the next The Priest and King to be adored by all the People as being most like to God Himself Accordingly in the 3d The Kingdom of France by Pope Julius is subjected to an Interdict and the Mart held at Lyons transferr'd to Geneva The pragmatick Sanction is rescinded in the fourth for the improving of the Trade of Ecclesiastical Hucksters the buying and selling of Church-preferments The Pope is asserted as Gods Lieutenant upon Earth though not of equal merits A very signal Condescension and to be kept in everlasting Remembrance God is meekly acknowledg'd to be superiour to the Pope In the fifth Session Julius dies Ne sleveris Fiâ—ia Sion ut Ep scoâ—â—us Mâ—d usiensis affatur Papam qâ—ia Ecce veâ—â—t Leo de Tribu Juda Radix David â—cce Tibi suscitavit Deus Salvatorem c. Te Leo Bâ—atissime Salvatorem expectamus Te Liberatorem vâ—nturum speravimus Concil Lateran ult Sess 6. Bin. To. 9 p. 74. another great Condescension And Leo his Successor is saluted as no less than the Lion of the Tribe of Judah the Root of David the Saviour and Deliverer that was to come A pretty clinch but a blasphemous complement and unworthy a Bishop's mouth In the eighth and ninth Sessions This Lion Roars first against them that shall violate his Decrees in the present Council to whom he threatens such a Sentence of Excommunication as none but Himself could absolve them from Next against the Emperour Kings and Princes whom he chargeth not to hinder such as were coming to the Council under the penalty of incurring God's Displeasure and his own In the last of those two Sessions Divinae Maj statis tuae conspectus vutilanti cujus fulgore imbecilles oculi mei caligant c. Et paulo post In Te uno legitimo Christi Dei Vicario pâ—opheticum illud debuerit â—uâ—sus impleri Adorabunt cum omnes Reges Terrae omnes Gentes servient ci Ibid. Sess 9. p. 114 116. Antonius Puccius tells Leo how his Eyes are darkned by the rutilant Brightness of his Divine Majesty in him alone as the Vicar of God and of Christ That saying of the Prophet ought again to have its completion All the Kings of the Earth shall come and worship All the Nations under Heaven shall do him
in the windows or walls of Churches Concil Nicen. 2. Act 4. Concil Constant quartum decrevit cundem Imaginum cultum Edit Bin. Tom. 7. p. 1046. what is the object of Adoration And so much the rather will he believe it to be an Error because the second Nicene general Council decreed that Images are to be worship't and denounced an Anathema to all that doubt the Truth of it Does he not think it was an Error in the Council of Chalcedon Concil Chalced. Act. 15. Can 28. Qui Canon genuinus est non obstante Bâ—nii subterfugio Pudendo to Decree unto the Bishop of Constantinople even in Causes Ecclesiastical an aequality of privileges with the Bishop of Rome Or does he not think it was an Error in the * Concil Constantinop III. Act. 13. Vide Notas in vitam Honor. Edit Bin. Tom. 4 p. 572. sixth General Council to condemn Pope Honorius as a Monothelite and to decree that his Name should be razed out of the Church's Diptychs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Concil Florent Definit Edit Bin. To. 8. p. 854. seeing another General Council since held at Florence hath defined the Pope to be the High-Priest over all the world the Successor of St. Peter Christ's Lieutenant The Head of the Church The Father and Teacher of all Christians and one to whom in St. Peter our Lord Jesus Christ did deliver a full Power as well to GOVERN as to feed the Universal Church And did accordingly exauctorate the Council at Constance for seating a Council above a Pope Or is it not thought by Mr Cressy that This Florentine Council was in an Error in Granting the Roman Church a Power of adding to the Creed which the General Council of Chalcedon had forbidden to be done under the Penalty of a Curse as was * ibid. Sess 5. p. 593. observed and urg'd by Pope Vigilius Himself to Eutychius the Patriarch of Constantinople Let Mr. Cressy but compare the sixth General Council whose famous Canons were made in Trullo with the Tridentine Canons and the General practice of his Church And sure I am He will acknowledge that the one or the other hath foully err'd It was decreed in the sixth a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Conc. Constant III. Can. 13. To. 5. p. 326. Edit Bin. To. 5. p. 326. That married men without scruple should be admitted into the Priesthood and this without any condition of abstaining thence-forwards from cohabitation lest men should seem to offer Contumely unto God's holy Institution Yea which is most to be observ'd This was a Canon made professedly b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. ibid. p. 325 326. against the Canon of the Church of Rome whereunto is confronted the antient Canon which is there said to be of Apostolical Perfection Here the Doctrin and Practice of the Church of Rome is condemn'd by a Council which is owned to be General by the same Church of Rome The Church of Rome is also condemn'd by the same c Ibid. p. 338. General Council in its 55 Canon and commanded to conform to the 65 Canon of the Apostles from which they had scandalously departed under two great Poenalties therein express't To all which if I shall add How the 8th General Council made a peremptory Decree * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Concil Constant IV. Act. 9. Can. 3 Edit Bin. Tom. 7. p. 977. That the Image of Christ is to be worship't as the Gospel of God That whosoever adore's it not shall never see his Face at his second coming never at least by their Goodwill That the Pictures of Angels and all the Saints are in like manner to be adored And that all who think otherwise are to be Anathematiz'd I hope Mr. Cressy and Father Johnson are not such Lovers of Idolatry and Contradiction as not to know and to acknowledge the Fallibility of their Church in a general Council And as on the one side Their stedfast Belief That She cannot err is enough to confirm them in all their Errors So to convince them on the other side of that one Error will make them ready both to see and renounce the Rest That it may seem to be a vain or a needless Thing for any man to be lavish of Time or Labour in a particular Ventilation of other controverted Points whilst This of Infallibility remain's untouch't or undecided For if we shew them the Absurdities of Bread and Wine being transmuted into the Body and Blood of Christ or of being so transmuted into Human Flesh and Blood as to retain both the Colour Touch and Tast and all other Adjuncts of Bread and Wine or of its so beginning now to be in the Act of Consecration the numerical Body of a crucified Jesus as to have been the very same under Pontius Pilate as well as in the Virgin 's Womb or of its beginning to be as often and of as many several Ages as the Priests at their Altars shall please to make it or of its being the same Body whether eaten by a Christian or by a Dog They will defend themselves with This That though 't is absurd and impossible yet it is necessarily true because 't is taught by That Church which cannot deceive or be deceiv'd Whereas if once we can convince them that she is able to be deceiv'd who had taught them to believe she is undeceivable and that in matters of greatest moment They cannot chuse but disapprove and forsake her too as the greatest Deceiver in all the world Thus I have done what you desir'd if not as amply or as well yet at least as my Time or my want of Time rather would give me leave Had I the Tithe of that Leisure I once injoy'd I might have long ago reply'd to Mr. Cressy's whole Book which I can hardly now say I have wholly read Nor indeed do I intend to consider more of it then here I have partly because I am inform'd that the whole is undertaken by other men partly becaule I am prohibited both by mine Enemies and my Friends though in several senses and to several ends but chiefly because I am forbidden by less-dispensable Employments For although I must confess I think the Task very easie and such as hath nothing in it of difficult besides the length which Mr. Cressy's Misadventures would make unavoidable upon so many and ample subjects so as his strength doth chiefly lie in the number and nature of his Infirmities which nakedly to observe were to write a Just Volume yet supposing a Camel already loaded with the maximum quod sic that his back will bear the Addition of a Feather may serve to break it Some may think me Insufficient others Indulgent to my Ease and I am as careless as they unkind But I have Witnesses to my Comfort both within and without me And God above is my Witness too That I have little or
because the Scripture can not deceive whosoever doth fear lest that he be deceived through the Obscurity of this question may ask Counsel touching it of the Church whom without any doubt the Scripture it self doth shew The same S. Aug. l. 4. de Trin. c. 6. saith No lover of peace will be against the Church And Ep. 118. c. 5. he plainly terms it Most insolent madness to dispute against that which the whole Church holdeth I will insist no longer upon the Testimony of the Fathers of which I might pour a whole shower against you lest I receive the ordinary Answer that this their Opinion was one of their Navi Spots or Blemishes and therefore shall be rejected but will â—â—ge your own Authors and Protestants to whom perhaps you will give more Credit Calvin upon Esay expounding the words of the 59 Chap. My Spirit which is in thee and my words which I have put in thy Mouth shall not depart from thy Mouth and from the Mouth of thy Seed and of thy Seeds Seed saith our Lord from henceforward and for ever saith He promiseth that the Church shall never be deprived of this inestimable good but that it shall alwayes be governed by the holy Ghost and supported with heavenly doctrine Again soon after The Promise is such that the Lord will so assist the Church and have such care of her that he will never suffer her to be deprived of true doctrine And his Scholar Beza de haeret à Civili Magistratu puniendis p. 69. confesseth that the Promise of our Saviour of the Assistance of the holy Ghost was not made onely to the Apostles but rather to the whole Church D. Saravia in defens tract de div Ministr gradib p. 8. saith The holy Spirit which beareth rule in the Church is the true Interpreter of Scriptures from him therefore is to be fetched the true Interpretation and since he cannot be contrary to himself who ruled the Primitive Church and governed the same by Bishops those now to reject is not certes consonant to Verity Our Lutheran Adversaries of Wittenberg Harm of Confess Sect. 10. p. 332 333. Confess Witten Art 30. not onely confess the Church to have Authority to bear witness of the holy Scripture and to interpret the same but also affirm that She hath received from her husband Christ a certain Rule to wit the Prophetical and Apostolical preaching confirmed by Miracles from heaven according unto the which she is bound to interpret those places of Scripture which seem to be obscure and to judge of doctrines Field also l. 4. c. 19 20. Sect. The Second acknowledgeth in the Church a Rule of faith descending by tradition from the Apostles according unto which he will have the Scriptures expounded And we cannot doubt but that she hath followed this Rule having such Assistance from Gods holy Spirit Furthermore the same Dr. Field in the Epistle to his Treatise of the Church professeth thus Seeing the controversies of Religion are grown in number so many and in Nature so Intricate that few have time and leisure fewer strength of understanding to examine them What remaineth for Men desirous of Satisfaction in things of such Consequence but diligently to search out which among all the Societies of Men in the World is that blessed Company of holy Ones that houshold of faith that Spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her directions and rest in her Judgment For brevity I will omit many other of our Adversaries who are of the same Minde and will now press harder upon you Surely if we believe the Creed the Church is holy if the Scripture She is the Spouse of our Saviour without spot or wrinkle which Eulogies and indeed glorious titles would nothing well become her if she can teach us that which is false This Scripture also gives us these known doctrines and directions That the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth 1 Tim. 3. v. 15 c. That the Church is built upon a Rock and the Gates of hell shall not prevail against her Matth. 16. v. 18. He that will not hear the Church let him be to thee as the Heathen and the Publican Matth. 18. v. 17. He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you despiseth me Luke 10. v. 16. Loe I am with you even to the Consummation of the World Matth. 28. v. 20. I will ask the father and he will give you another Paraclete that he may abide with you the Spirit of truth Jo. 14. v. 16. And again yet many things I have to say unto you but you cannot bear them now but when the Spirit of truth cometh he shall teach you all truth Jo. 16. v. 12 13. to omit many other the like passages is Scripture Now this Church whose Authority is thus warranted did praecede the Scripture which for a great part thereof was written but upon Emergent Occasions as Field Hook Covel and other our Adversaries have confessed which Occasions had they not been perhaps we never had known this Scripture Suppose then we had lived in those times when there had been no such Scripture as many did some part thereof being not written above sixty years after our Saviours Ascension Ought we not then to have believed the Churches tradition and preached word This Church was called the Pillar and Ground of Truth before the words were seen in writing and the like I might say by the other places before cited which are now in the Scripture but were delivered by word of mouth to the Church before ever they were written by all which places the Authority of the Church is commended to us and we referred to the said Church as a Guide in all our doubts And all these words of God were no less to be believed and obeyed before they were written then since Even the Scripture it self is believed upon the Tradition and Authority of the Church being part of the Credenda it proposeth nor could we at this day have known which books were true now Canonical which Spurious but by the Churches decision and Proposal as the said learned Mr. Hooker and other our Adversaries do acknowledge Again who doth not ground his belief upon the Church upon what doth he ground it but upon his own fancy or private Interpretation of Scripture the true Sourse and Nurce of all Heresy And such as these may indeed be found upon ancient Account as Helvidius Vigilantius and the rest of Hereticks as the Catholick Church did then account them Now to that which is insinuated That the Scripture was sometime acknowledged the Rule of Faith and Manners it is answered that it is so now but this doth no way hinder the Churches being the Ground of our Belief for the Church is both the Ground of our believing the Scripture and also the Interpreter of Scripture as is above confessed by our Adversaries
Church as visible whose proposals we must receive and submit our understanding unto For the Invisible Church or Church as Invisible cannot order us in our Belief because as such it is not known to us I come now to your Testimonies And your first witnesse is Saint Irenaeus Answ We yeild all to Saint Irenaus nothing to you We say we ought not to seek amongst others the truth which we may easily take and receive from the Church c. Yes because the Church is serviceable to the truth by way of Ministery to deliver the Word of Truth to keep the Word of Truth to uphold the Word of Truth And so we acknowledge the Church to be a sufficient Treasury of Truth because we have therein the Scriptures But the Treasury doth not make the Money true nor currant for it is possible that there may be false Money in the Treasury Therefore we must not take it to be lawfull because it cometh out from thence and so the Scripture is not made true to us or the sense of it evidently credible to us because it is in the Church But we must look whose Image and Superscription the Doctrine hath and whether it be right coyn or not and it may seem to be of the right stamp and yet not Therefore saith Origen in his 34. Hom. upon Matth. All Money 1. Every word that hath the Royal stamp of God and the Image of his Word upon it is lawful Therefore we must bring it to the Word for trial We confesse we may take out of her the drink of Life yes but as out of a cistern such water as cometh from the Fountain the Scripture and we drink out of the Scripture the Water of Life as Tertullian in his Prescriptions We deny not this to be the entrance of Life because we have here the means of grace administred And all without the Church we say are thieves and robbers and they ought to be avoyded Yes All without the bosome of the Catholick Church which would break her Peace and rob her Treasury are as thieves and robbers and ought to be avoyded We grant that those things which are of the Church as being true from Scripture in points of faith or not repugnant to Scripture in things of Discipline are with great diligence to be loved And we allow it that the tradition of Truth is to be received Yes thus the tradition of Scripture the word of Truth or the Truth delivered in writing for so Tradition not seldome signifieth Or tradition of Truth which is according to Scripture as the Apostles Creed Not that whatsoever is delivered should be Truth as you would have it but whatsoever Truth is delivered should be received This is all that place as seemeth to me will afford Your second Testimony from the same Father may it self answer the Objection of the former and may confirm my answer Onely let me adde that he speaketh of the Church then purer then now If you will have more said to this you may find it in Saint Cyprians authority which you produce next The Church Catholick alwayes holdeth not maketh that which she first knew Where in Scripture Where else And where the Church holds that which it thus knew we hold with it and are beholden to the Church for holding it forth to us The Church may inform us of it but it doth not certifie it to us therefore doth not infallibly conveigh it the Truth to us therefore is not the ground of Faith The Office of the Church is as a Candlestick to hold the Light of the Word of Truth And moreover though is did alwayes hold that which it knew might it not also hold somewhat which she did not know Though it did hold that which was true might it not hold that which was false in other things As the Church of Rome holds many things which are true wherein we differ not and also many things false wherein she exceeds the Catholick Faith as in regard of Object Now put case therefore that that ancient Church near the Apostles times did not hold any point false but did hold Every point true yet even from hence nothing will be inferred sufficiently to your purpose unlesse you can prove that it was appointed by God to be the ground of Faith by an impossibility of errour in any particular Such is to be the ground of our Faith which is wanting in the Church not privatively as if it had been ever promised but Negatively because not promised to the Church after the Apostles times If it were possible that the Church might not erre yet this would not make us rest our Faith in it Faith hath no sure footing in such contingencies of Truth unlesse you prove a non-possibility of erring you doe nothing But we come now to the signal testimony of this kind that of Saint Austin I would not beleeve the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did move me To which I answer First if the testimonies of the other Fathers be defective in clearnesse or fulnesse as to this matter the testimony of one single Father though excellent will not amount to the Verdict of the whole Church and you have no Fathers yet for you for any thing I see Secondly Take this passage by it self and it seems to speak high but consider it with the tenour of his discourse in the whole chapter and it is like you will begin to think that it comes out from him in some heat of spirit to overcome his adversary Thirdly you will be pleased to give me leave to use a Criticisme which admitted according to the reasonablenesse of it will somewhat change the property of this suffrage It appeareth by compare of places in African writers that as is observed their manner was to expresse the tense more then past by the imperfect and also that he in other places must so be understood And if so here then it must refer to him as when he was a Manichee he was moved then as such by the authority of the Church to the embracing of the Gospel And so we grant that the authority of the Church doth move to beleeve the Scriptures But this cometh not to the case in hand which is intended for particular points of faith whether we should ground our faith of them in the Scripture and not in the proposal of the Church Neither is this an universal way as is pretended of coming to the beleef of the Scriptures by the commendation of the Church for some have been added to the Church immediately from the word as in the second of the Acts at the preaching of Saint Peter as is noted And yet fourthly mark the terms It is not said I would not believe the Gospel unlesse the authority of the Church did cause me but unlesse the authority of the Church did move me And thus this Testimony doth very well agree with our Opinion The authority of the Church might move him although he did ground his
finde in my heart not to say a word to them that you might see I do not give them that respect as to the Fathers And yet take the strength of all their authorities together and make of them an accumulative argument as we may speak yet they do not conclude your cause Calvin and his Schollar in their sayings affirm no more then that which we acknowledge not from them that the Church shall by the assistance of the Spirit be sufficiently furnished with necessary Doctrine unto Salvation but those of the Church invisible may be saved though the Church visible be not Infallible and by consequence not the ground of Faith As for Doctor Saravia's passage I answer it doth not come up close to your purpose The H. G. which beareth rule in the Church objectively is the true Interpreter of Scripture and thus it is not for you And if you understand the Church objectively yet first the matter he seems to speak to is of Discipline about Government of the Church depending upon Primitive Example but we are upon points of Faith Secondly He cannot be contrary to himselfe when he acts as he did formerly in the time of the Apostles but whether he doth so act now is a question yea no question Thirdly If you will with him and from him draw the Government of the Church to be proportionably Episcopal with all my heart I reject them that reject it And your Adversaries of Wittenberg confesse nothing for you The rule they speak of namely Prophetical and Apostolical preaching c. it is the Word of God written according to which she is bound to interpret those places which are obscure and to judge of Doctrines according to the rule which she hath received so as her Interpretations are to be agreeable to the analogy of Faith and her judgements of Doctrines to be made according to the Law of the Word namely harder places are to be expounded by those which are more plain and Controversies to be decided by that rule And all this makes nothing for you For thus the Scripture is the Rule ruling and the Church is but the Rule ruled And thus we follow the Church as the Church followes the rule as Saint Paul saith Be ye followers of me as I am of Christ in the first Epistle to the Corinthians c. 11. v. 1. Or if those Lutherans mean by a certain rule any rule distinguished from Scripture it is to be understood of some general heads of Christian Doctrine in proportion whereunto doubtfull places and Doctrines were to be judged But those heads were to be gathered out of Scripture And so all is resolved towards belief in Scripture but I think no man can see how they should say such a rule which was not Scripture was confirmed by miracles So for them And for Doctor Field if you will go through the twentieth chapter of the fourth Book you shall finde nothing in him contrary to this Doctrine For he saith plainly that though the Canonical Books are received by way of Tradition yet the Scriptures have not their authority from the approbation of the Church but they win credit of themselves and yeild satisfaction to all men of their Divine Truth whence we judge that the Church which receiveth them is led by the Spirit of God Observe not because the Church is led by the Spirit of God therefore doth he say she receiveth them but because she receiveth them therefore we judge she is led by the Spirit of God And as for his Rule of Faith descending by Tradition from the Apostles what is he like to mean but the Apostles Creed which he saith there was delivered in the Church as a Rule of her Faith But even this binds not by authority of the Church or upon Vertue of Tradition but by proportion to Scripture where it is found in particulars of matter though not in form of a Creed We confesse also that we should search out the true Church as the same Doctour saith We confesse that the Catholick Church is the Houshold of Faith the Spouse of Christ the Church of the Living God and that we should embrace her Communion and rest in her judgement Yes but how Not ultimately not absolutely not in what so ever she saith because shee saith it but in what so ever shee saith from the Lord. For although she doth goe by an infallible Rule yet are we not sure she goeth by it infallibly Therefore though wee rest in her judgements as to Peace yet can wee not rest in her judgements as to Truth because our understandings are not free to assent to what man will as being bound to assent to that onely which is grounded in the Word of God in matters of Faith And now might I Vie with you in number of Pontificians against you See Durand in his Prologue upon the Sentences where he hath more to our purpose then is necessary to be Transcribed Read him your self Gerson also in his Sermon concerning Errours against Faith and Manners about the Precept Thou shalt not kill saith thus More freely more purely more truely more speedily is Truth found out and Errour reproved if the Divine Law alone be constituted as Judge according to the consideration of Aristotle He which makes the Law the Judge makes God but he that addes Man addes a Beast Panormitanus also upon the 5. of the Decret concerning almes in chap. qualiter quando The saying of any Saint established with the Authorities of the New or Old Testament is preferred before a Papal Constitution even in decision of Causes Also Ferus upon the 1 Epistle of Saint John 2. chapter in the 52.3 page of the Antuerpe Edition thus The Holy Ghost doth teach t is by the means of the Holy Scripture and Word Again The Holy Scripture is given to us as a certain sure Rule of Christian Doctrine And again in the same page For if having the Holy Scripture as a most certain Rule of Christian Doctrine set before our Eyes we notwithstanding teach things so unlike what would be done if the Scriptures were taken away And if you say now that there is added to those places Tradition in the Roman Edition after the Trent Council as is noted You will get nothing by that but shame to the Pontificians And now I think I am not much behind hand with you in Testimonies about the Question But then afterwards you presse harder upon me So you say but I do not yet feel the weight of any thing you say I beleeve the Creed and that the Church is Holy And I do not beleeve but know that from hence nothing is coming to your cause The Catholick Church makes not it self the ground of Faith but is grounded in it as before And how were the first Members of the Catholick Church made Christians but by the Word of God And from the Holynesse of it doth not follow infallibility by the Roman distinction which saith that the Pope may erre
will not hear the Church Let him be unto thee as a Heathen and Publican Here you see all Causes of greater Importance are to be brought to this Judge for if even private complaints are to be brought into her Tribunal and if for disobedience after her Judgement given of them a man be to be hold for a Publican or Heathen much more are enormiously hurtful crimes such as are the crimes of Heresie to be carried to her Tribunal and those who in so much more Importing matters disobey are also much more to be held for Publicans and Heathens And that no man may think that after this his condemnation he may stand well in his Interiour persisting still in the same judgement and doing so stand right in the sight of God it followeth Amen I say unto you Prelates of my Church VVhatsoever ye shall bind upon Earth shall also be bound in Heaven You see I have found a Judge so securely to be followed in his Judgement and so unsafely to be disobeyed that his Sentence given upon Earth is sure to be ratified in Heaven This also could not be true if this Judge were fallible in such prime causes as most concern the Church and all such causes are those which may bring in damnable Errors Conformably to this doctrine of the Church her being our Judge Saint Austin de Civit. l. 20.9 expounds to our purpose those words of the Apocalypse or Revelation cap. 20. ver 4. I saw Seats and they sate upon them and Judgement was given them It is not to be expounded of the last Judgement but of the Seats of Prelates and the Prelates themselves by which the Church is now governed are to be understood All this which I have said out of the New Testament you will the lesse wonder at if you Note that even in the Old Law it is said The lips of the Priest shall keep knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord God of Hosts Mal 2. Note here a grosse corruption of the English Bible which readeth these words The Priests lips should keep knowledge and they should seek the Law at his mouth whereas the Originals speak clearly in the future Tense Here by the way I must tell you that though the Scripture were to be Judge yet your most corruptd English Scriptures cannot be allowed for Judge Whence it followeth that those who do understand onely English can judge of nothing by their Scripture And so they must trust their Ministers to the full as much even in this highest point as we do our Priests in any point But let us proceed You see first that I have found a way so direct that fools cannot erre by it for any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the known Doctrine of the Church and then let him rest securely when he knoweth that Secondly you see I have found such a Judge as all true believers had for all their Controversies for more then two thousand years together before Moses did write the first Books of Scripture all which time you must needs make the Tradition of the Church the infallible Rule of Faith for here was no written Word of God upon which their Faith could be built and yet Saint Paul 2 Cor. 4. speaking of those who lived in those Ages before all Scripture saith They had the same Spirit of Faith And the reason is clear for the Word of God is the same whether it be revealed by the Pen or by the Tongue written or not written And what saith St. Irenaus l. 3. c. 4. if the Apostles had not left us the Scriptures Must we not have followed that order of Tradition which they delivered to those to whose Charges they left the Churches to be governed To this order of Tradition by the unwritten word many of those barbarous Nations do assent who have believed in Christ without any writing or Inke having Salvation written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and keeping diligently the ancient Traditions So St. Irenaeus who you see holdeth manifestly unwritten Traditions of the Church to be a sufficient Ground of Faith It is most manifestly true which he saith that upon this ground the Faith of whole Nations have relyed This ground therefore is infallible all Nations Faith relying on this even two Thousand years and more before the first Scriptures were written and the Faith of many other Nations who since their writing have believed and do believe the true Faith For how many of them never did see the Scriptures at all or never did see them in a Language which they could understand Neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such languages as they could all or the greater part understand They thought the Tradition of the Church a sufficient Rule of Faith for all which they could not do if this Rule were fallible We must therefore confesse it to be Infallible Thirdly I have not onely found a Judge so clearly pointing out the way that fools cannot erre by it but such a Judge as no exception can be taken against his sufficiency for no other Judge was in the Church for some Thousands of years amongst the most true Beleevers and afterwards amongst whole Nations Fourthly I have found a Judge to whom Christ hath given a certain Promise to teach no damnable error by which Doctrine the Gates of Hell should prevail against her Fiftly I have found a Judge whom All men are obliged I say obliged by Interiour Assent in point of Faith to obey under pain of being held here for Heathens or Publicans and looked upon as such by the Judgement of Heaven binding what the Church bindeth Sixtly I have found a living Judge who can be informed of all Controversies arising from time to time and who can hear Me and You and be heard by Me and You that neither I nor You can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we doubt we can propose our doubt and she will tell us clearly her meaning whereas the Bible can neither hear a Thousand new Controversies which arise daily nor be heard clearly to give any certain Sentence in them but onely say the same still which she said even before the Controversies began and about which Sentence of hers all the Controversie did arise neither doth the Bible give any such Judgement as will suffice to hold these and these men who teach these and these errors for Heathens and Publicans which the Church doth so clearly and so manifestly that they themselves cannot deny themselves to be condemned by the Church together with their Doctrine but all they can do is to raile against their Judge which the damned shall do against Christ their Judge I see no exception there can be made against this Judge Onely you will tell me that Infallibility is wholly necessary for the Judge of Faith which I
clearer then this if I say such a thing was done by Cicero the Father of his Countrey and Caesar did such another thing What I say more clear then that in this speech I call Cicero The Father of his Country and not Caesar of whom as yet I had not so much as spoken So the Apostle had not so much as spoken of any Mystery when he spoke these words which lie thus in your own Bible That thou maist know how to behave thy self in the House of God which is the Church of the Living God the Pillar and Ground of the Truth and without Controversie great is the Mystery of Godlynesse c. Do you not see that he had not so much as spoken of this Mystery when he said the former words which in all kind of Construction per Appositionem clearly relate to the Church O but my Adversary tells me that this title of being The Pillar and Foundation of Truth agreeth in the first place to the Scripture I answer it agreeth equally to any thing that is the True Word of God and therefore it agreeth to the Scripture because God speaketh by it in it but God also speaketh by his Church and in his Church giving as much infallible assistance to the Church in a Councel as he gave to him who did deliver his Word in Scripture for example as he gave to Solomon who in his own person came to play the Idolater It is objected also that in these words rather the Office of the Church is set forth then her Authority To which my Answer is clear that her Authority cannot possibly in short words be more set out then by saying that she is The Pillar and ground of Truth for what Authority can rely more safely then that which relyeth on the Pillar of Truth What Authority can be better founded and grounded then that which is founded and grounded upon the Ground and Foundation of Truth So that nothing can be more clear against Scripture then to say it doth not set out the Authority of the Church in this place No Text being clearer for any thing Hence when the Church had defined that God the Son was Consubstantial to his Father that is of one and the same substance which is no where clearly said in Scripture St. Athanasius calleth this Definition of the Church the Word of God saying that ever hereafter this Definition of the Nicen Councel That Word of God by the Nicen Councel doth remain for ever and ever Ep. ad African Episc Behold here the Definition of the Councel called The Word of God remaining for ever and ever Is not this to acknowledge the Church Infallible in her Definition That place also out of St. Matthew proveth strongly the Churches infallibility Christ there bids his Apostles to teach and Baptize all Nations adding And behold I am with you all dayes even to the consummation of the world My Adversary saith It is not necessary to extend this Promise to Christ his being with the Church to the end of the world which is all one as to say It is not necessary that Christ his Promise should be true For surely he cannot promise more clearly to be with his Church to the end of the world If he should say I will be with you for a Thousand years he should not perform his promise unlesse he were with it a thousand years wherefore promising to be with it even to the consummation of the world to make his promise true he must be with them so long Now the Apostles were not so long as the end of the world baptizing and preaching but their successors are with them therefore Christ must be to the consummation of the world And though these successors of the Apostles be not so worthy of Infallible Assistance as the Apostles were yet Christ giving the gift of infallible assistance not for the worth of the person to whom it is given but for the secure direction of so many millions as were to be of the Church after Christ his time there is as much yea far more reason why he should leave the like secure direction for them because the further we go from Christs time the more we are subject to uncertainties about his Doctrine See Numb 21. It being then proved that Christ will be with his Church untill the consummation of the world and it being manifest that he is not with those who live in damnable Errors we must of necessity say that Christs Church in all ages lived secured from damnable Errors or else there was some Age in which he was not with it and in which he performed not his promise And the same is to be said of that place of St. John 14. And I will aske the Father and he will give you another Paraclete that may abide with you for ever the Spirit of Truth This abiding of the spirit of Truth for ever secures us for ever from all damnable Errors Admirably St. Austin l de utilit cred c. 6 If the Providence of God doth not preside in humane affairs in vain would sollicitude be about Religion but if God be thus present with us truely we are not to despair that there is some Authority appointed by the same God on which Authority we relying as on an assured step may be lifted up to God So he But if this step be fallible It is no assured step Gods providence therefore hath left an Infallible Authority in his Church such an Authority as the first Church had for 2000. years before any Scripture was written And do not tell me that all this is then only true if the Church judgeth conformably to Scripture for even in that sense the Devil himself the Father of Lyes is Infallible as long as he teacheth conformably to Scriptures and the Gates of Hell cannot by any error prevail against the Devil of Hell yea as long as he teacheth conformably to Scripture he is The Pillar and Ground of Truth Hath God in the Texts alledged given no more to the Church then to the Devils And how is this answer to the purpose seeing that for two Thousand years before Scripture no man could know what was conformable to Scripture yea nothing was then conformable to any Scripture there being no Scripture at all And the Church then had not Gods Promise which in all the Texts Authorities and Reasons above alledged is that the Church shall at no time teach any thing that in any damnable matter shall be against Scripture so that when we know this is her Doctrine we are sure that this is conformable to the Scriptures rightly understood And thus clearly is fulfilled those notable words in the Prophet Daniel cap. 2. v. 44. In the dayes of those Kingdomes the God of Heaven will raise up a Kingdome which shall not be dissipated and his Kingdome shall not be delivered to another people and it shall break in pieces and consume all these Idolatrous Kingdomes and it shall stand for
Infallible Churches Authority to be the ground of Faith I proved the Authority of the Roman Church to be so See this fully answered Numb 27.28 Secondly You say you might still have left me to answer your first Paper with the second Paper I reply that this is onely to stand to what you have said as I also do Let the Reader judge with indifferency Thirdly You say I conclude not contradictorily I reply that I alwayes conclude the Churches Authority to be a sufficient ground of Faith you say it is an insufficient ground Reader judge whether these two be not Contradictions sufficient and insufficient Now to your Eight Answers in Order In your first Answer you spent seven pages to prove the Scripture to be a sufficient ground of Faith This This it is not to conclude contradictorily You should conclude that the Church cannot be a sufficient ground of Faith which still may be and is true though it also be most true that the Scripture is a most sufficient ground of Faith when it is once known by an infallible Authority to be Gods Word and also when we evidently know that such and such is the undoubted sense of the Scripture But I have proved at large that we cannot know upon infallible Authority which books be or be not Gods Word but by the Authority of an infallible Church See Numb 11 12. And consequently if the Churches Authority be not a sufficient ground for Faith then we can have no Faith to believe which books be Gods Word which not See Numb 26. The Churches authority is hence proved to be a sufficient ground for Faith and to be our first ground for we must first upon the authority of the Church believe such and such Books to be Gods Word and then assured by this our belief that they be Gods Word we may ground our Faith upon the authority of that Word of God which in this sense I hold to be a most sufficient ground for all Faith extended to all points clearly contained in Scripture This and onely this all your Authorities prove Take for an Example your first Authority of St. Irenaeus out of which you neither do nor can infer any more then that the Scripture once believed to be Gods Word is to us a sufficient ground of Faith because in it self it is The Pillar and Foundation of Truth but by the Authority of Saint Paul which is a stronger Authority then that of Saint Irenaeus The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth Therefore her Authority is a sufficient ground of Faith even according to this your strong Argument This I shewed Numb 22. Yea Saint Irenaeus expresly teacheth that though there were no Scripture at all yet we should all be bound to believe what we now believe as I have shewed Numb the. 19. And yet then we should have no other Authority then that of the Church Again the Scriptures can then onely ground Faith when they contain the Matter about which we are bound to have Faith but very often they do not contain this Matter as I have shewed Numb 9.10.11 12. and chiefly Numb 15. and 16. These points not being contained in Scripture how can I believe them for the Scripture Lastly the Authority of Scripture onely can ground Faith in those points which are known undoubtedly to be delivered in such clear Texts as a man cannot prudently doubt of the sence but a number of things are to be believed which be not thus set down in Scripture as hath been shewed in the places cited See also Numb 14. In other Cases I never deny the Scripture to be the ground of Faith but I say that as God spoke by the pens of those who writt Scripture so he speaketh by the Tongue of his Church in a General Council and therefore these his words are also to be believed as I fully shewed Numb 21.22 23 24 25 26. The Scripture in the Cases I here specified is a sufficient ground of Faith as your authorities well prove and so is the authority of the Church as I have fully proved in the places cited In your second Answer all you say is that the Church cannot ground our Faith but I have fully shewed the contrary in the places cited In your third Answer you come to answer the Testimonies I brought out of Holy Fathers and Scriptures and this taketh you up unto your 27. Page My Reply is that in this Paper I have made good Authorities and Testimonies sufficiently abundant to convince what I undertook and I have fully refuted the chief things you said against the chief places as may appear fully out of the Numb 17 19 22 23 24 25 26. where at large I have shewed your lesse sincere proceeding about the prime authority of S. Austin whose authority in the precedent Number I shewed not to be single In the fourth Answer you say you take not Canonical Books to be Canonical for the authority of the Church I Reply that if you do not take them to be so on this authority yet the holy Fathers did as I have shewed Numb 12.25 26. And if you believe them to be Canonical onely upon the Light given in them to you to see this verity your ground is far more fallible then the authority of a General Council as I have demonstrated Numb 13. In the fifth Answer you endevour to shew that you ground not your Faith on your own private judgement of discretion but I have shewed fully the contrary Nu. 3 4 7. In the sixt Answer you rejoyce to see me confesse the Scripture to be the Rule of Faith and Manners as if I had at any time denyed this Neither doth this Confession destroy my Position that the Church is the Ground of our Belief Can I not ground my Faith upon what St. Peter saith because I can ground it upon that which Saint Paul saith Why is the Scripture the Rule of Faith Because it delivereth to me Gods Written Word But the Church delivereth to me Gods Word written and unwritten I may therefore also rule my self by that The most right Rule of Scripture is often so crookedly applyed that he is blind who seeth not that we need to have better security of Interpretation then our own private discretion of Judgement can afford as I have fully proved Num. 4.14 Of the Infallibility of the Church in Interpreting I have fully proved our Doctrine Numb 21 22 23 24 25 26. In the seventh Answer you taxe me with being loath to own the Roman Church Why I did not speak of the Roman Church I told you here in the beginning it was because you would conclude as there you do The Catholique Church is not the Ground of Faith therefore the Roman is not I have fully shewed the contrary and proved the Catholique Church to be the ground of our Faith and out of superabundance I have shewed this Church to be the Roman Church See Numb 27 28. In the eighth Answer
yet will it not 〈◊〉 your 〈◊〉 unlesse you can prove that whatsoever priviledges were promised to the first Church in the times of the Apostles should in full dimensions be alwayes extended to your Church and your Church onely Therefore your Isidor Clarius doth apply this Text to the time of our Saviour when he did make the Blind to See the Lame to Walk as he sent word to John the Baptist And therefore since it was signally accomplished then we cannot urge the performance of it in that equality in a sense spiritual which also seems to be acknowledged by Saint Hierome upon the place where the opening of the Ears of the Deaf he doth apply to the Scripture Preached and the way he saies to be God Now then as we cannot solidly argue from the promise of pouring out the gifts of the Holy Spirit which was solemnly and subfâ—â—a visibile made good upon the Apostles as â—oâ—hâ— Peter declared that there shall be the like effusion of immediate gifts upon the Church in the following ages which some Sectaries would plead so neither can we rationally conclude from this promise which was as that excellent manner and in the Letter perfected by our Saviour Christ that it shall be continued to any Church iâ— that measure of a spiritual kind If we cannot evince the same perfection in the same kinde surely can we not by our accommodation of sense evince the same perfection in another kind upon the former consideration because it is mystical and that not argumentative 3. This path and this way and this holy way so that fools cannot erre is upon supposition promised to the Church Is it not Well then if it be promised to the Church then the Church is not that way for that way is promised to the Church so that the Church is not absolutely that way but so far as it goeth that way which is as much as was said before and is not yet answered that the Church is regula regulata not regulans Take then the matter thus that way which the Church goes we must goâ—â— The Church goes by the way of Gods-Word revealed and so must we therefore we are not bound to follow the Church with blind obedience which excludes Faith because that includes Knowledge although it be contradistinguished to Science Fourthly If the promise did belong to the Church in all times yet not to any Church of one denomination therefore untill you can prove that your Church is all this makes nothing for you Particular Churches have not those properties which belong to the Universal Church as such And if you make a proof of the Church to be the holy way because the Church is holy how easily is that undone because there is more reason that the Scripture should be the holy way for that is perfectly holy or the Holy Ghost is the Judge because he is essentially holy but neither is the Church perfectly holy here nor essentially holy not in Heaven And besides secondly the Holy Church if you understand it with relation to the Creed as in your former Paper it is to be taken of the Church invisible which as such is on way And thus I have slighted your strong hold as it seems to you for hitherto you do fly very often In your third Number you come to an assertion of the necessity of an Infallible Judge You say that all Christians of whatsoever Religion do agree in this that there must be one Judge of all Controversies and Doubts which either be or can be in Religion So you You speak very largely of your supposition as if it were agreed to by all Christians but you do not consider that you do leave out that which makes the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the state of the question whether there must be an Infallible Judge on Earth for that is not consented to on all hands by all Religions indeed by none but yours That God either essentially taken or personally the Holy Ghost is the Supreme Universal Infallible Judge and onely in whose Authority we rest and whose word is the Ground of Faith we hold Under him subordinate Judges there are but not Infallible neither is it by your reason sufficiently confirmed that there should be on Earth any Infallible Judge For the defect of such a Judge on Earth doth not leave us free without any fault to follow our own private judgement in holding what we will For first it is impossible for us to hold what we will in our judgements We may possibly though not morally professe what we will although contrary to our judgements as many doe but we cannot assent to what we will because our Understanding is not free to take which part of the opposition it pleaseth by way of Will for it embraceth Truth naturally as it sees it and it cannot give a rational assent without a due conviction and therefore your implicite Faith is false and null Secondly We do not say that we should follow our own judgement of discretion without meanes of regulating our judgement but yet after we have perused the Definitions of Councils and Sentences of the Fathers we cannot resigne up our Assents to their Dictates upon their account but do examine them as the Beraeans did that which Saint Paul said untill we can finde them resolved into the Infallible rule of Holy Scripture For let me ask a Papist according to the renour of your first Paper What doth he believe he answers that which the Church believeth and why doth he believe it because the Church believeth it and why doth the Church believe it because it received it from the first Church through the Sentences of the Fathers or the Determinations of Councils Well but how shall the People know whether this Tradition of Doctrine is truly discerned and faithfully delivered but if so why is he bound to believe the first Church because either they were the Apostles oâ— had it from the Apostles And why doth he believe the Apostles Because they were inspired by the Holy Ghost Well in what they wroâ—e or in what they spoke or both In both Well but how do we know what they spoke We know what they wrote bears witnesse of it self so doth not to us what they spoke so that although they were inspired in whaâ— they spoke yet we know not what they spoke Neither can we be assured by a Divine Faith that what of them was not written is certainly derived And therefore all of Faith must be terminated and determined in that which is written And as towards Controversies we say thirdly that Christ hath sufficiently provided for the Salvation of Man in regard of means of knowledge without an Infallible Judge on Earth of their Controversies because things necessary are plainly set down in Scripture and for matters of question we are not in any such danger if we do our endevour according to our condition to finde out Truth and do dispose our selves to Belief as we shall see
credibility to arise The Scripture doth with competent clearnesse furnish us against damnative error and the Church doth no more as you give us to understand at the end of this your Treatise and why then should we leave the Scripture which is acknowledged Infallible to go to the Church and what need then of an Infallible Judge what for Peace and Unity Then fourthly we say that the Decisions of the Church though unprovided of infallibilitie do yet oblige unto Peace Though their judgement cannot ingage undisputed assent yet their power they have from Christ doth require reverence and undisturbance in the difference It requires subscription if we see no cause of dissenting and if we do subjection to the censure All the authoritie of the world can go no further with us unlesse we might be hypocrites in differing by an outward act from our inward act of belief And yet wherein have we divided out accords from the former General Councils And therefore why are we charged with this Indictment as if we were opposite to the authoritie of the truly Catholique Church yet if we did differ without Opposition we keep the peace of the Church without question And that we must differ until we see God speaking believe his reason that said Omnis creata veritas c. All created veritie is defectible unlesse as it is rectified by the increased veritie Wherefore the assent neither to the Testimonie of Men or Angels doth infallibly lead into Truth save onely so far as they see the Testimonie of God speaking in them So then the assent of Faith is onely under obedience to him speaking And if you say that God doth speak in General Councils as he doth speak in his Word written prove it Yea how then will you avoyd blasphemie For doth God speak Contradictions For so one Council hath contradicted another And to use your own argument we are bound to submit our judgement onely to those who can judge of the inward act for so you distinguish betwixt temporal Judges and others but God only can judge of our internal acts therefore we must submit our assents onely to him and therefore to others no further then they speak according to him So that we cannot absolutely adhere to whatsoever is said in Councils which have erred Jewish and Christian too Now then you may think I spoke reason in my respects to General Councils without your unlimited subjection of Faith And therefore your admiration in the beginning of the 5 th page of this Paper which is grounded upon your interpretation of thaâ— of Esay is as unnecessarie And that absurditie which you would infer upon my Opinion that the wisest men in the world are most likely to erre this way by which he may in his interiour judgement go quite contrarie to all Christendome hath little in it out noise For first you suppose hereupon an infallible Judge upon earth which is the Question Secondly the wisest man is not most likely to erre if it be lawful to dissent from Universal councils because as such he is most apt to discern what is defined according to Truth what not Thirdly what think you of Saint Athanasius who differed in his judgement and profession too from most of Christendome then about the Divinitie of the Sonne Fourthly the Rule of Scripture is equally infallible and those who are wise if they prepare themselves for the search of Truth they are likely not to erre for if they go by the Rule they cannot erre because it is infallible But those who goe by the Church may erre because for ought is yet proved it is not infallible and those who are fools may by Scripture be made wise unto salvation And to this purpose the Scripture which is very sublime and heavenly in the matter yet is simple and plain and low in the manner of deliverie that those who are of meaner capacitie might hereby he sufficiently directed to life and salvation Therefore doe not tell me but prove to me that the Church is infallible and that you are the onely Church or else you do nothing but with fooles whom you find or make to goe your way In your next lines you do discharge me of singularitie in my Opinion For it appears by you that all but Roman Catholiques are of the same perswasion All but Roman Catholiques you say As if none were Catholiques but either of your Nation or of your Religion The first is a contradiction and the second is a falsitie for there were many Catholiques which were not of your Religion in those Points wherein we differ By the Fathers of the Church those were accounted Catholiques which withstood the plea of Faustinus the Popes Legate in the Carthaginian Council when he falsified the Nicene Canon of subjection to the Roman Bishop whereof no such copie could be found They were Catholiques who determined against Appeals to Rome who determined equal priviledges of other Churches to the Bishop of Rome They were Catholiques who held not Transubstantiation nor Purgatory nor your use of Images nor your Sacrament under one kind nor your other Sacraments as of proper Name nor Indulgencies And they were Catholiques who held that which you doe not hold as the Millenarie Opinion and Infant Communion And therefore to follow you the desperate consequence which you charge us with if we do not come over to your way flowes not from your premises unlesse you can make out an infallible assistance of your See and that this is by God appointed for our necessarie passage to salvation and the way promised in the Prophet Esay Nay if the people should be left for their guidance to the unanimous consent of the whole Church in points of Faith here would be a desperate consequence for I hope they were more like to finde the Articles of Faith in the leaves of Scripture which as to these is plain then in the perusal and collection of all the judgements of all the Fathers of all ages every where according to the rule of Lyrinensis or if we take the depositions of the Fathers in those properties which he describeth such whereby we are to be ruled that they must be holy Men wise Men they must hold the Catholick Faith and Communion they must persist in their Doctrine they must persist in it unto Death in the same sense as in the 39. Chapter against Heresies If you do not take the consent of the Church according to these circumstances you differ from him If you do how shall the poor people through all those labyrinths see the right way of wholsome Doctrine when who knows how many of them did not write at all How many of those who wrote were not such How many works of those who were such are to us perished How many bastard pieces are fathered on them How many of their writings corrupted How many or how few have touched upon our differences having not occasion by adversaries How many have differed from one another How
many have differed from themselves Is then this the way that fools cannot erre If wise men go this way surely this is their first errour that they go this way wherein nothing is found but perplexities and unsatisfiednesse Neither can they soberly raise the credit of their Doctrine by prime descent without interruption from the Apostolique age if all be well considered Such a confidence let me give a check to by application of a storie A Christian Prince was much seduced by a kind of men who professed a vast Art of giving a certain account of many Ages before and a trifling Courtier perceiving his humour made him believe that his Pedegree in antient race of Royal Blood might be fetched from Noah's Ark wherewith he being greatly delighted forthwith laid aside all businesse and gave himself to the search of the thing so earnestly that he suffered none to interrupt him whosoever no not Embassadours which were sent to him about most weighty affairs Many marvelled hereat but none durst speak their mind till at length his Cook whom he used sometimes as his Fool told him that the thing he went about was nothing for his honour for now saith he I worship your Majestie as a God but if we go once to Noahs Arke we must there your self and I both be akinne This the Storie which is so long that it reacheth you from top to toe for you would by a verie long series derive your authoritie as it were from Noahs Arke which you think represents your Church out of which there is no salvation You would run it up from verie many successions to the times of the Apostles and nothing will content you but this ancient Original You lay aside all other proofs in comparison of this succession not so much of Doctrine indeed as of Church Embassadours that are sent to you with Scripture you will not hear unlesse your Church may have the power of Interpretation infallibly in your own cause But let some of the Popes servants whom he makes his Fools inform him that that which he goes about is little for his Honour for now they worship him as a God but if they come to the times of the Apostles there will be found no such distance betwixt him and others and consanguinitie of Doctrine as it is expressed will be able to disinherit your points of difference formerly named with invocation of Saints 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Where doe we finde them Where may we read them Therefore urge not Antiquitie unlesse Truth goes along with it on your side and do not any more strain the consent of ages for Doctrines which as we may speak will be out of breath long before they come to that mightie height of the Apostolique time As for your instance of Saint Cyprian erring by perswasion of that which he held to be Scripture and St. Austins Crisis of his errour I Answer First You see here Saint Cyprian a Prime Doctor of the Church did then ground his Opinion upon Scripture without recourse to Tradition And this makes for us that he thought it no injurie to the Church to varie from what was held or practised upon respect to Scripture He undertook to think and doe otherwise then Christendome then in the point of Rebaptization and yet was not accused as an Heretique Secondly He erred groslie and yet not dangerouslie because he held his Opinion without malignance to the Church and so may we without peril of salvation And if you say the case is different betwixt him and us because that point wherein he went not with the Church was not then defined by a Council We answer what shall we say then of the times in the Church before there was any Council and therefore in those times the Rule of Faith and Action was without a Council and therefore this answer doth not satisfie or they were ruled only by Scripture which may satisfie you Thirdly He erred not in the substance of the Act when he pleaded Scripture but in the misapplication of Scripture to that case and therefore this Argument comes to the fallacie of accident and this makes no prejudice against Scripture which in it self is contrary to errour without defectibilitie and therefore he that indeed follows Scripture cannot erre because it is Infallible So cannot we say of the Church for ought yet we see by your Discourse Fourthly This makes no more disadvantage to the prerogative of Scripture then that the Pelagians for their Opinions urged the Testimonies of the Fathers which caused Saint Austin to make an Apologie for them Vobis Pelagianis when you Pelagians were not yet born the Fathers spake more securely namely of the power of nature Nay surely it makes a great deal lesse for the Father if in this he had followed the Fathers whom the Bitagians quoted had erred not by his Interpretation of them but it seems by their inconfideratenesse But we cannot charge Scripture with any such fault and therefore Saint Cyprian erred by misinterpretation And here also by the way we see how fallible a rule is the consent of the Fathers since if Saint Austin had ordered his belief thereby he had been overtaken with Pelagianisme Now as for Saint Austins crisis concerning this of Saint Cyprian that if he had lived to see the Determination of a plenary Council he would for his great humilitie and charitie straightway have yielded and preferred the General Council before his judgement to this besides what we now said about the undefinednesse of it by a Council we say It is like he would have yielded and this yet accrews not unto your cause much For first Saint Austin sayes for his great humilitie and charitie he would have yielded And this manner of Expression you may perceive doth abstract from a necessitie of duty Under bond of Duty these vertues have no freedome He was so humble of mind that he would have thought better of them he was so charitable that for this he would have offended none in this case but doth this infer that he was bound in conscience to sink his Opinion in the authoritie of their Definition No no. Humilitie and Charitie have in them no formalitie influxive unto Faith for this is seated in the understanding but to peace Therefore this yielding of his supposed upon the Case would have onely concerned his person as not to have opposed here not his judgement as if this should necessarily have been overcome by their Authority For the person may be bound when the Conscience cannot be bound so may the person yield as to the omission of opposite acts when the understanding yet keeps its former due apprehension Secondly this businesse of Saint Cyprian is such as is a matter of practice not clearly decided by Scripture but this avails not to an universal conclusion of ruling our faith by the Church which although you at the beginning did seem to wave yet here would in your discourse insinuate and wind in The summe of
here is one place where the Father useth the words not in the Roman sence which may be made use of to another pupose about your opinion of merit and also if you will not mean it here of deserving this makes some diminution of respect to the book and some advantage more I shall make of this chapter in its place Many lines in your fourteenth page you have afterwards wherein we have nothing but vaunts or repetitions I will not trouble you with the latter nor my self with the former But towards the end of that page you would order the matter so as to hold your own and yet to give Scripture its due respects And you seem to bring it to this determination that when there is an acknowledgement made that the Scriptures are in themselves the Word of God it doth not derogate from Scripture to hold that yet they are not known to us by an infallible ground that they are the Word of God but by the testimony of the Church which in shorter terms is expressed by others of your Church that the authoritie of the Scripture doth depend upon the Church But this will not serve the covering is too short For first this distinction is too narrow to extend to the difference betwixt us in particular points of faith Therefore if you will yield that points of Religion are to be examined and ended infallibly by Scripture when we know it to be the Word of God then we will onely stick to this Question But if you will still maintain the infallibilitie of the Church in all her definitions then your composition will not be sufficient although it could satisfie as to that particular But secondly It will not satisfie because you do not sufficiently provide for the honour of the Scriptures authoritie and therefore you derogate from Scripture in this although you did take away no honour from Scripture as in regard of its truth Do you lay it to heart that the many questions betwixt us is about the authoritie of the Scripture the formal Reason of credibilitie is the authoritie That which makes me to believe it to be the Truth of God as being his Word is the Authoritie For if the credibilitie doth rise from the truth of it in it self you destroy your own cause for that you confesse the Scripture to be the infallible Word of God then betwixt us simply about the Truth of the Scripture there is no contest And doe not you affirm that the authoritie of the Church is the Ground of Faith because you think that the Church by its authoritie is worthy to be believed since it is infallible But why then do you not grant this authority to the Scripture since you confess it to be infallible If the reason of believing the Church be the infallibility of it according to you why is not the infallibility of the Scripture the reason of believing it since it is confessed infallible And if you say you do believe it to be so by the authority of the Church then the formal reason of believing it is not the infallibility of the Scripture but of the Church and yet the infallibility of the Church shall be the formal reason of believing it But you say you must know the Scripture to be infallible that I cannot do but by the Church Well but do not you then see that you preferre the authority of the Church before the authority of Scripture for the Church with you is to be believed for it self for so it must be or else the Scripture must be believed for it self or else we shall have in Divinity no principium primo primum wherein to rest Now if the Scripture be to be believed for it self then we have ended the businesse If the Church be to be believed for it self then we prefer the Authority of the Church before the authority of Scripture then you derogate from the authority of Scripture Thirdly the Church hath authority or not It hath you say then of it self or not what will you say If of it self what hath a company of Christians more to say for themselves then others If you say the authority comes from succession others also have had a constant succession And it must come to one first society Well where had that society its authority of it self or not If of it self what by revelation beside Scripture or not If beside then the charge of Anabaptisticalness is fallen upon you What then From Scripture Well then the Scripture in regard of those Texts which concern the Church is to be believed for it self and then why not in others Fourthly The Word of God in the substance and matter of it was before the Church therefore because the Church was begotten by it and therefore it must be known before the Church Yea reconcile your Opinion with that of Bellarmine in his first Book De Verbo Dei cap. 20. The Rule of Catholique Faith must be certain and known for if it be not known then it will not be a Rule to us If it be not certain it cannot be a Rule If it be a known Rule against Anabaptists why not also a known Rule against Papists and therefore that it must be made manifest by the Church is not necessary for how was it made manifest to the first Church to be the rule As for the instance of yours that Christ was made manifest to many by the Testimony of the Baptist and of the Apostles before the Scriptures were written and yet this derogate not from Scripture We answer soon First It is yet to be proved whether the Church hath that inspiration as John Baptist and the Apostles had for the first planting of the Church until that be made good your Argumentation is not Secondly Although the New Testament was not written the Old was and Iohn the Baptist and the Apostles preached no other Doctrine then was contained in the Old So our Saviour If ye had believed Moses ye would have believed me for he wrote of me in the 5. of Saint Iohn the 46. verse Thirdly If Iohn the Baptist and the Apostles were believed by a Divine Faith without the authority of the Church as the first Disciples did why may not the Scriptures be believed by a Divine Faith without the authority of the Church If the Apostles were believed immediately without the Church in what they said why may they not be believed also in what they wrote And surely to goe a little more close and deep if we speak properly there is not so much a ground of Faith as a cause if with the Schoolmen we grant as we may that Faith is a supernatural habit infused by God which disposeth the understanding to assert that which is said by God is true because he saith it not because the Church saith it And if you say that the Scripture and the Church are not opposite true when the Church ruleth it self by Scripture But if the Question be which proposal is
Judge Is there no more likely-hood of a figurative sense in the words then there is of the being of an Accident without the Subject or of the Body of Christ to be in Heaven and on Earth and in thousands of places at once But you contend the improbability of this sense because he took the Bread and the Cup in his hand and said this is my Body and this is my Bloud Surely this makes no prejudice against us for this was necessary towards the consecrating of that Bread and that Wine otherwise there would have been a Consecration of Bread and VVine in Communi and therefore he spoke demonstratively and this demonstration makes the Subject no lesse capable of a figure then the Praedicate and what difference Behold the Lamb of God or this is the Lamb of God So in the 9. to the Hebrews and the 20. verse Moses having taken the Bloud of Calves and Goats said This is the Bloud of the Testament VVas that Bloud transubstantiated into the Bloud of Christ or when one takes his Testament may he not say this is my VVill although it be but the signe of his Will You take notice also of the different opinions there are about the sense of the words of Institution We have no cause to take it to our selves who have not such variety of conceits therein Neither can you I am sure justifie your Infallibility by your accord herein since some question whether it be transubstantiated and therefore have they a proviso of a conditionate adoration Adoro te si tu es Christus and so many amongst you differ about the manner of the change whether by production which supposeth as is noted the Body not to praeexiste and this is false or by adduction which supposeth against Transubstantiation or by a kinde of Conservative Conversion which is little else then a Contradiction in adjecto therefore answer your self How is it more clearly defined by the Church which was scarce in debate till the time of Berengarius Did the Church all that while want necessaries to Salvation But lastly you should not have pleaded Scripture for this point on your side if you will believe Scotus and your Cardinal Bellarmine who sayes that Scotus held Transubstantiation could not be clearly proved by any Text of Scripture and he himself thinks it not improbable Therefore herein you cannot in their judgement convince us by Scripture and therefore till the Church be Infallible it is no doctrine of Faith as it was not before the Lateran Council as Scotus affirmed by Bellarmins Confession in the 23. chapter of the third Book De Sacramento Eucharistia but if Transubstantiation be not declared in Scripture then our opinion negative to you is more secure and is not concluded not to be in Scripture though you or others will not professe it In the former part of your 15. Number you go over a former argument again to which the former answer may serve As for the other part of your Paragraph concerning all the points of Saint Athanasius's Creed which are not clearly delivered in Scripture and yet he that will be saved must think thus I answer Although the matter of them be not in terminis found in Scripture yet the sense of them according to aequivalence may as well as Transubstantiation when you will endevour to make it out by Scripture Secondly Although we believe what is said in his Creed yet therefore are we not bound to believe it by the Authority of the Church since he would have held it although the Church had not as he did sometimes differ from the common profession of the Church in the Consubstantiality of the Son of God In the beginning of the 16. Paragraph you say somewhat which you had said before to it we say nothing but you raise a new opposition Baptisme of Children to be necessary to their Salvation is a prime point of Belief and yet you cannot believe this prime point of Belief by any clear place of Scripture therefore you mean all necessary points are not clearly believed by Scripture therefore by the Church this must be your dissertation and your minor proposition you confirme by the Testimony of Saint Austin We Answer first to your Major by distinguishing a necessity of Baptisme in general it is necessary by necessity of precept but it is not necessary by necessity of mean to the child so as that if it be not baptized it is undoubtedly damned the former respects the Parents that they should take care of it for their children but if they do not or the child be taken away as many are before it can be done by a lawful Minister we cannot conclude it or them absolutely perished since it is not so necessary to them that were of age at the Primitive Institution Saint Mark the 16.16 Whosoever beleeveth and is Baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not shall be damned not also and is not Baptized For many there were and cases might be put that there might be more which could not have Baptisme before they died as appears by your Vicarium Baptisma which the Fathers speaks of Then though we may well assure our selves that if Infants rightly Baptized die such they are certainly saved yet can we not as reasonably passe the Verdict of Damnation upon those which are not Baptized As to your assumption we also distinguish if you mean we cannot believe this Poedobaptisme by any clear place of Scripture namely in terminis terminantibus as they speak expresly we grant it but this is not enough for your purpose And if you mean it cannot be clearly believed because by consequence it cannot be proved or because it cannot be clearly beleeved since it is beleeved by consequence then we deny your assumption in both regards For whatsoever is necessarily inferred from Scripture is binding in the vertue of the principle and therefore clearly we may beleeve it Now the institution of Baptisme in general by Christ the substitution of it to circumcision since there is the same Covenant in substance to both Testaments is a sufficient Principle to infer the necessity of Baptisme of Infants besides what may be supposed by baptizing whole Families And therefore this is none of those things which are not grounded in Scripture and therefore no Object of the Church Tradition And therefore Saint Austins Testimony will come to no more then this that though they had nothing for certain alledged out of the Canonical Books in this point yet the truth of Scripture is kept when they do that which seemed good to the Catholique Church namely so far as the Catholique Church keepeth the Truth in clearing that which is not plain in Scripture Which Church the Scripture doth commend as he But is it cōmended for infallibility If not this Testimony and all your Testimonies and all your instances which you have of things not determined in Scripture but determined by the Church will doe you no good for you
formality of speech doth import a promise in the future not a duty in the Subjunctive yet the promise doth not include an impossibility of error no more then the promise made to your Church as you suppose doth exclude all error but that which is destructive Thirdly The future in the Hebrew doth not contradict a subjunctive in the interpretation when the scope bears it since the Hebrews as you may know have no proper Subjunctive And it is proper to the scope to understand it as of duty they should keep knowledge whereupon â—â—ey are charged for breach of duty therefore our Interpretation in this is more sound then your dispute upon it And therefore that which you say in your 19. Number that any man may ask the Priests of the Church what is the Known Doctrine of the Church then let him rest securely when he knowes that that is unreasonable because the Priests are not Infallible May he not rest more securely in Scripture for the Church in all things is not as before infallible the Scripture is in all which it proposeth but the Church you say is not in danger of taking in any damnative error Well but the Scriptures sets out none at all but all things are not determined in Scripture Well but all things are not determined in the Church but all things necessary are taught in the Church which may keep us from damnative error Well and are not all things necessary taught in the Scripture why then not to the Law and Testimony why to the Cistern when we may have it at the Fountain why not to the Scripture particularly when what Authority the Church hath it hath from the Scripture in general and why doth your Church take away from the people the use of Scripture and why may not we be informed as sufficiently by our Priests as you by yours notwithstanding this Text especially since we go by Scripture you by Tradition or humane definition And if the Priests of yours were Infallible can you say Infallibly that they will not deceive you How miserably then do you provide for the poor people when you would have them require at their mouth not the Law of God but the Doctrine of the Church That which comes on in the same Number about Tradition before Scripture was answered before it was written The Word in the Substance of it was before the Church which was begotten by it and when there is now as much need and as great certainty of Tradition as formerly then urge it And I thank you for Saint Irenaeus's Testimony I do not lye at catch but the most convincing dispute is by our Adversaries principles not the Fathers but yours as you apply them for we can make very good use of his words If the Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveyed to us as the Gospel was before it was written and this confirmes for me what was said before but now I assume the Scripture is now left to us therefore is there no need of certain conveyance of Tradition to us Surely you have a minde to help us for your own good Neither can we believe that those barbarous Nations you speak of did rely onely upon Tradition they might be commended to the doctrine of the Gospel by Tradition and then not believe it for the sake of Tradition for this is the state of the question Tradition in matters of Faith unwritten is of equal authority to Scripture Secondly If you say Salvation was written in their hearts by the Holy Ghost this may be meant to be done not onely beside Scripture but besides Tradition and thus was it done extraordinarily But why Thirdly Might not the Holy Spirit infuse Faith of the Gospel into those Nations by some of those who were Apostles or sent from them to Preach it and then the Tradition you speak of is the matter of the Gospel which is written and so it doth not appertain to the question of Traditions of proper name which you say are beside that which is written though not against it and then your discourse is fallacious from that which is the object of the Gospel delivered to that which is beside it delivered which ambiguity of the word Tradition if it doth deceive you yet doth it not consequently deceive me but if you mean Tradition here onely of the manner of communicating the matter of Scripture without writing then the former answer may satisfie you that Tradition was then more certain and they were more assured of it by the Spirit of God then we are now And also it might be to them as the Star to the Wise Men for leading them to Christ By the light of the Star they were guided to Christ but when they came to him they saw him not by the light of the Star but by the light of the Day so some might be directed to the Gospel by Tradition before they had the Scripture and then believed it by the light of Scripture You add also neither did the Apostles or their Successors take any care to have the Scripture communicated to all Nations in such Languages as they could all or the greater part understand So you This is readily denyed for God did take care that the New Testament should for the most part of it at least be first written in Greek And the Greek you know in the notion of the New Testament is contradistinguished to the Jew because so many of the world besides the Jews were Greeks and the Greeks Language was the most common then and therefore saith Tully in his Oration for the Poet Archias Graeca per totum orbem leguntur And God by his gracious Providence hath taken care that the Scripture should be translated into divers languages as you may know that so several Nations might have it familiar to them in their own Tongue which must condemn your Church for not permitting of it ordinarily to the people in their own dialect and also doth conclude that Tradition is no Infallible provision for a rule of Faith for how shall the people undoubtedly know that the Traditions were clearly discerned true from them which were false and also that they were faithfully handed through so many Centuries to the present time And yet if so this would not be sufficient for your use unlesse you or others could finde these two points more one how to evade a Circle by proving the Traditions by the Church and the Church by the Traditions and the second this that those Traditions have Infallibly decided the differences betwixt us which the Antients did not professedly handle as having not provocations thereunto If any thing be touched by the by you may know the rule Aliud agentis parva autoritas In your 20. Number you make a recapitulation of what you think you have done and I think you have undone untill you come to Sixthly I have found a lawful Judge who can be informed of all Controversies
arising from time to time and who can hear Me and You and be heard by Me and You that neither I nor you can doubt of the true meaning of this Church or if we doubt we can propose our doubt and she will tell us clearly her meaning whereas the Bible c. cannot do so This hath in it somewhat new your discourse in brief may be under this forme That which can hear you and me and be heard by you and me and resolve doubts of its meaning is the Judge the Church can do thus the Scripture not therefore the Church is the Judge and not the Scripture We easily answer If you understand the proposition of a formall Judge so we grant it and do not say the Scripture is the Judge but if you mean it so that nothing can be in any Kind a Judge but that which doth so we deny it and your assumption too for the Law is in its kind the Judge and so may the Scripture be as I have shewed before in this paper And unless the Ecclesiastick Judges whereof we do not reject a lawfull and good use doe rightly declare Scripture in the application of it to particular Causes wherein the authority of the Church as some of your men will sometimes say doth consist I cannot possibly hold my self bound in Conscience to yield my judgement therunto So then secondly unlesse you put into the premisses that that which heareth you and me and is heard by you and me is the infallible Judge and then that the Church doth so your discourse is peccant in the ignorance of the Elench for so we grant all as to the Church for this may stand with our cause but if you do put in infallibility we deny both the one and the other Preposition Thirdly by this Argument you exclude Tradition from being the Judge for doth that hear you and me Is that heard by you and me but you say the Church doth determine hereby then may it determine by Scripture more securely and more universally Fourthly is not the Heretique Saint Paul speaks of in his third chapter to Titus the 10.11 verses 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 condemned by himself or of himself how that not by principles of natural Knowledge for Theologie is supernatural and therefore needed a Revelation of it from God you know not by a Revelation immediate Extra Scripturam for then how should he be condemned of himself Not by any definition of the Church which was not then sufficiently formed thereunto no nor yet by Titus because then as before he had not been condemned by himself then he was condemned by himself because he had in him the Principles of the Word of God which he gainsaid by his contrary Error So that it remains he was condemned by the Law of God And therefore that can judge you and me not externally and by voice but internally by vertue of Conscience which can and does and should apply the truths of God to the censure and condemning of Errors in us so that this Scripture it is or the Word of God which passeth Sentence in the interiour judgement as you speak and this absolves some who in the outward Courts are condemned and condemneth some who in the outward Court are not condemned And therefore it is not only lawful but necessary for us sometimes to dissent in our judgement because they may erre in their dijudication And as much your own reason suggests in your 21. Number wherein you acknowledge it to be necessary that there should be infallibilitie in the Judge of faith And then you would state or estate this infallibility of the Church of Christ thus that a Pope defining with a Lawful Generall Councill cannot erre For it is no necessary article of faith to believe that the Pope or Head of the Church cannot Erre when he defineth without a Generall Councill So you Alas Sir what Cautions do you stand in need of in this grand and capital and Comprehensive Controversie which affords me Liberty to think that that is not the ground of Catholique Faith which is intricated with so many windings and guarded with such accurateness of Cautions that render it very suspicious and therefore not to be plain and a direct way so that fools cannot erre for who can be certain by a Divine Faith of the Lawfullness and regularitie of your Pope in his Creation and when there was Pope against Pope who of the people could distinguish the right And this is now possible because then in facto And who then could decide the question for the infallible judge you say is your Pope with a Council Which of them could then determine it and in his own cause Or could your Council determine it without a Pope but I hope your infallible determination could not be without the Head of the Church And who according to your Doctrine should call the Council for you say that power is vested in the Pope Well suppose no doubt of the legalitie of the Pope how shall we by a Divine faith come to be assured of the lawfulness and Generality of a Councill for you know Ecclesiastical History is full of instances of Councils which were called by the Emperours and not by Popes to whom you say it doth of due belong to call Councils else they are not lawful And how shall we know whether every one of the Council hath a free Election to it and a free decisive vote in it How much of faction may be looked for in a Councill when there is so much in the Election of a Pope such exclusions such bandyings What Council was ever called by a Pope wherein Religion was not made to serve his interest Is not he who hath power of preferring like to domineer in such Consultations And how shall ignorant souls be divinely perswaded that the Council i◠General If it be easie to discern it then had your Tren◠Council great infelicity to be so contradicted by the French Catholiques And how many Bishops in the Trent Council furnished with a Title to overpower them with Votes on the Popes behalf So that he answered well who said about the question which is superiour a Pope or a Council a Pope was like to have the more voyces because he could confer Bishopricks a Council not What clue can a collier have infallibly to guide him through all those Labyrinths Secondly If the infallible Judge of Faith be the Pope with a lawful General Council how was the Church provided for when for so many years there was neither Pope in your sense nor any Council Thirdly If the Pope and the Council do differ about a Question what shall be done in that case yet if the Question be which is superiour to the other the Pope or the Council what shall be joyntly agreed and is not this a main question between the Sorbonists and others Fourthly If the Pope with a lawful General Council be the infallible Judge then how will this be reconciled
Ut sic quatenus errer it is false All simple errour is not damnative to the person And therefore Christ may be with some who live in some errour indeed otherwise with whom is he For who is there that lives not in some errour though he knows it not If you mean then damnable errour distinctively I grant you all and yet you have nothing thereby for your cause For this doth not prove infallibility to your Church Security from damnable errour distinctively taken doth not infer absolute infallibility The former is promised as also in that of Saint John 14.16 which you would reinforce here but absolute infallibility is not intended And this you must have or else you are utterly lost For if the Church be not infallible in all that is proposed by it how shall I be assured of any particular thing which it proposeth If I be not assured of this particular how am I bound to believe it If I be not bound to beleeve it upon its proposal how is it the ground of Faith Divine If it be not the ground of Faith Divine then you are gone And besides those promises in Saint Matthew and Saint John you may know were made as to the Apostles equally and therefore to their successours equally and to the Church universal equally by consequent and therefore cannot you appropriate it to your Bishop and to your Church Saint Austins authority in a passage of his wherein you say he speaks admirably in this De utilitate credendi cap 6. you had better have omitted It strengthens your cause nothing if you quote it as you should First it is misquoted for the chapter for it is not in the 6. chapter but in the 16. Secondly you may see in the beginning of the chapter that the scope of it is to shew how authority may first move to Faith And Thirdly this scope may discover your corrupting of his Text for it is not as you give it a certain step but contrary an uncertain step velut gradu incerto innitentes as in the Froben Edition â—N M. D. lxix Whereby you may perceive how little reason we have to credit your infallibility And then Fourthly part of his authority in that chapter is by miracles of Christ which he did himself on earth The summe of your fourth Number is this to perswade not onely that the Churches authority is infallible if it judge conformably to Scripture for so even the Devil himself is infallible so long as he teacheth conformably to Scriptures but that the Church shall at no time teach any thing that in any damnable errour shall be against Scripture So that when we know this is her Doctrine we are sure that this is conformable to the Scriptures rightly understood And this you would prove by two Testimonies of Scripture We answer distinctly and First to that you say about the Devil First we are not commanded but forbidden to consult with the Devil but we are injoyned to consult with the Church of God Secondly we have cause alwayes to suspect the Devil because either he doth not give us all the Scripture unto a particular or doth pervert it or doth speak the truth with an intention of deceiving the more but we have more charity towards the Church we have none towards the Devill Thirdly Yet though we do not believe the Devil in point of truth upon his authority neverthelesse can we not believe the Church in whatsoever it sayes to be true upon its authority neither doth it follow that the Devil should hereupon be the pillar and ground of Truth when he said that which is conformable to Scripture as well as the Church because the Church doth hold and uphold Truth so doth not the Devil but when he useth it he doth it to destroy it and again we are moved to think that which is proposed by the Church to be true so are we not moved by the Devil to conceive it to be true upon his saying so And therefore if I do believe that which the Devil saith conformable to Scripture to be true and do not beleeve that every thing which is said by the Church to be conformable to Scripture I do not make the same account of what is said by one and by the other For that which is true I doe beleeve because it is seâ— though the Devil saith it I do beleeve it in respect to the matter without any respect to the Author and that which is not true according to Scripture I cannot beleeve though the Church saith it yet am I moved by the authority of the Church to consider the point more because it is proposed by them and what is by them proposed according to Scripture I am moved to beleeve of with respect of the Authour of the proposal but cannot be resolved in my Faith of but by the authority of Scripture And therefore I cannot beleeve that whatsoever is said by the Church is agreable to Scripture because the Church faith it for this proposition for ought as yet proved is not agreable to Scripture rightly understood And if you say that your Church must judge the sense let it first judge whether it doth not beg the principle Neither have your Texts alledged any thing for you Not that of Daniel the 2. chapter the 44. verse It respects indeed the Kingdome of Christ in general and therefore is not proper to any Church of his signaâ—ter for any thing can be shewed by the Text. Secondly The Kingdome of Christ principally respects the Church invisible which as such is not our guide Thirdly it may certainly come to its everlasting reign in Heaven notwithstanding some errour on earth by the Church visible Fourthly whereas you say it shall destroy all Idolatrous kingdomes you doe very well add in your Parenthesis Idolatrous Kingdomes to save your selves from suspition But it all Idolatrous Kingdomes then have you reason to make your infallibilitie more strongly infallible otherwise you will be included in this distraction So also that of Esay 59.21 profits you nothing some of the former answers may serve it principally is intended for the Church invisible which by the Church visible may sufficiently be directed through the means of grace to salvation infallibly without infallibility of the Church As the Word of God was certain before it was written and the Church then was by it directed because it was then in substance of it though not written as we have said before but you compell us to repeat so by the Word written infallibly though not infallibly expounded and applied by the Pastours of the Church shall the Church be brought to Life For if every evil action doth not destroy the state of salvation as you will confesse then surely every simple errour cannot because it is not voluntary And this is fully able to answer your Appendix to this Number at the end of your paper Those Testimonies if they be rightly cited yet in those terms affirm no more then
that the invisible Church shall not perish which is true although the visible Church be under a possibilitie to erre since every errour is not destructive of salvation In the 25. Number you tell me what you have said before but that you have given me some additional Testimonies in the supplement of the last which have their answer without repetition Onely you no where I think find that Saint Jerome did receive all those books which you receive for Canonical and for those Authours which held the Consubstantiality of the Son and those several properties of the Holy Trinity you will give me leave with judicious men to suspect Eusebius Beleeve your Cardinal herein Bellarmin in his De Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis p. 94.5 6. where he brings the attestation of Saint Athanasius and Saint Jerome to the same purpose and Saint Jerome calls him not onely an Arrian but the Prince of the Arrians sometimes sometimes the Ensign-bearer Yea the 7. Synod he sayes and the Apostolical Legats rejected his authority as being an Arrian Heretique as he saies And as for Austins expression that the relying on the Church's authority is the most true and inviolable Rule of Faith you refer it to your 16. Number and there referre me to the 13. chapter of the first book Contra Cresconium which I cannot see there If it should be so disertly yet this must be understood respectively to those cases wherein the Scripture doth not clearly passe the Verdict in which the authority of the Church is the best rule we can then have as towards practice But this in his Opinion doth not absolutely leave us to follow Tradition of the Church in points of Faith unlesse he contradicts himself as you shall see at the end But you are afraid of want of Number to make noise because you say I said you had no other Testimony but Saint Austins I did not say that you had none but his absolutely but you had none but his that I could see of those you produced Neither him indeed if you please to tell us what you see Therefore we shall look over your reinforcing his and the main testimony for your cause in my answer whereunto I see yet no place for amendments or abatement I said if you consider the whole tenâ—â—r of the chapter you may be inclined to think that it came from him in some heat of dispute and methinks I may think so still Your men are wont to answer evidences of the Fathers which are against them when they please that such passages came from them not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and surely we may have that liberty when there is such occasion given for us to interpret them as here if we consider how he was displeased with himself for a former respect to that Epistle and also if we take notice of his short returns of discourse in this Epistle and also if we mark his check and correcting and taking up himself towards the end of the chapter with an absit Sed absit ut ego Evangelio non credam And if this answer doth not weigh with you then I gave you another that this might be spoken of himself not in sensu composito as then but in sensu diviso as in order to that time when he was a Manichee himself To which purpose I told you it was familiar to him and other writers of that part of the world to expresse a tense more then past by the imperfect and the sense is that when he was a Manichee he would not have believed the Gospel but that the authority of the Church had moved him to it One place of this usage I found to be in a chapter you quoted in his De Predestinatione Sanct. lib. 2. cap. 1. s 14. Qui igitur opus est ut eorum ferutemur opuscula qui priusquam ista haresis â—riretur non habuerunt necessitatem in hâc difficili ad solvendum quastione versari quod procul dubio facerem si respondere talibus cogerentur where you have the Imperfect Tense for the Tense more past facerent for fecissent and so the other So in his first Book of Retract cap. 51. Profecto non dixissem si jam â—uns essem literis Sucris ita eruditus ut recolerem where you have essem for fuissem and so the other And also by the way let me observe somewhat from those two places towards the main question besides the use of them in the way of Criticisme For by the former you have the reason why the Tradition of the Church in Doctrines received will not make an end of our differences since the questions were not then started and also by the second you may observe that we cannot swallow all that was said by Saint Austin without chewing since he sayes himself that had he been so well instructed he would not have said this and that And indeed his books of Retractations are books against you and do conclude wholly that we are not to take whatsoever the Fathers wrote to be as true as Gospel Yea some such books of Retractations all of them might have made as some think Origen did although they are perished as to us But the answers which I gave you to that passage of Saint Austin will not content you Therefore you endevour to shew at large that they will not serve You say unlesse he will stand to that ground he must needs seem to say nothing against his Adversary What ground do you mean VVhat that he was moved by the Churches Infallible Authority as you would conclude at every turn No supposing him not to speak in aestu Sermonis yet what he said against his Adversary was reasonable without urging the Infallible authority For the consent of the Church might be considered by him as a condition towards the reception of any doctrine and yet not to be that which he built his Faith upon as upon an Infallible ground You may know the Causa sine qua non is not a cause although such a thing be not without it yet is not this the cause thereof And therefore make what you can of the place it will not afford you a firm foundation if his authority could do it You say that this is his first argument to shew that his Adversary by citing Texts out of the Gospel to prove Manichaeus a true Apostle could prove nothing against those who as yet have not believed the Gospel So you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and what then Because the Adversary can prove nothing by Scripture to those that deny it therefore Saint Austin must infer that the authority of the Church is infallible and he must believe the Gospel upon no other ground VVhat consequence is this as if because Saint Austins adversary cared not for the judgement of the Church therefore we must be guilty of that which is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which hath so much wronged the Church as nothing more This
the Catholick Church is not sufficiently pleaded for the Roman and also Infallibility is not yet asserted to the Catholick And therefore your demonstration you talk of is but a flourish and your Argument you think unanswerable is not to be answered any more because that strength which it had is taken away And I have no more to say untill you have any more to say upon this point or any you mean in difference betwixt us But yet you have not done but like a Parthian who fights flying so you dispute still ending You say you will shew how unanimously the Fathers acknowledge this Saint Cyprian Ep. 3. l. 1. saith That false Faith cannot have access to the Roman Church And when you please to press this I shall shew you what little ground you are like to get in that Epistle since though he names the Roman Church as the principal Church as the chair of Peter yet he there defends his own jurisdiction against those who would ramble to Rome to have their cause heard and judged there Neither will you get any credit by those whom he speaks of and in those words you quote there is an intimation that the Romans then when he did write were not such as those were in the Apostles times Apostolo praedicante and I shall tell you why it was called the principal Church for a principle of Unitie so he from whence the Sacerdotal Unitie began and also by reflexion from the Imperial Seat And if you will object Saint Jerome's authoritie in his Comment upon the first to Timothy that he calleth Damasus the Pope of Rome the Rectour of the House of God which you say Saint Paul calleth the Pillar and Foundation of Truth I shall return you answer that this is not very much for other Bishops were called in ancient times Papae too and that he calleth him the Rectour of the House of God that is not much neither since every Bishop is so The Rectour of the Church in that place where he lives And this will appear to be less considerable if you will take notice that in his Comment upon the first Ep. to Tim. the third chapter upon these words A Bishop must be irreprehensible where he speaks of a Bishop in communi he sayes Aut Ecclesiae Princeps non erit so a Bishop in general with him is a Prince of the Church and also you know what opinion he had betwixt Bishops and Presbyters Read to this purpose his Epistle to Evagrius If you come upon me again with Saint Jerome to Damasus in an Epistle you may tell me what Epistle for he wrote more then one and his Title in some is as is set down plainly Hieronimus Damaso Surely Popes then had not that state or else Saint Jerom had little reverence towards him And you may see also how the Pope writes to him to resolve questions And is this any sign of the Popes Infallibilitie Well but you say in that Epistle you will tell me of to Damasus he saith To your Holyness that is To the Chair of Peter I am joyned in Communion Upon this Rock I know the Church to be built he that gathereth not with thee scattereth So you And shall I give you answer to this now then I may tell you that this doth but magnifie the honour of his own Commuion and yet not much neither if you will observe what he saith in his Comment upon Amos the 6. chapter Petra Christus est qui donavit Apostolis suis ut ipsi quoque Petrae vocentur Tu es Petrus c. Then Peter is not in his Opinion the onely Rock you see Moreover so the Fathers you say in the Council of Chalcedon at the voice of St. Leo Pope of Rome said Peter hath spoken by the mouth of Leo. And what can you ever make of this that they did say so No more then thus much that the Successour of St. Peter spoke Doth this signifie that all the Personal pripriviledges which Saint Peter had Pope Leo had then there needed but him to determin all the Controversies Yea according to Saint Jerom before if he had had all those priviledges which Saint Peter had yet the Church should not be built upon him onely for the other Apostles were Rocks too Yea and is he Christs Successour also If he be not then that which you would fain arrogate to him belongs onely to Christ to be Head of the Universal Church To cut short you remit me to Statleton and Bellarmin who both shew most diligently how all other Churches have gone to Rome to receive judgement in their chief causes The places you say you will alledge though for the present you refer me to them What do you mean Sir to put me off to those adversaries or in the interim to satisfie me until you have ranged them into another discourse I need not send you to our men who have withstood those Champions foot to foot Junctusque Viro Vir. Saint Cyprian in the place before makes an exception against this supreme Tribunal for Appeals and the African Churches After this you seem to threaten me with further Demonstrations of particulars material to your cause Untill which time it becomes me in civilitie to wait and not to take the word out of your mouth or your work out of your hand I shall let you rise that you may have more strength for the next assault I could leave here but that our late Feast may hint you to think of the contest betwixt the Roman and other Churches about the observavation of Easter And were those Hereticks or Schismaticks that would not stand to the Roman determination herein And as for your earnest demand to know but the name of one of the Pastours Doctors or Preachers in those last thousand Ages Years which preceeded Luther I may conceive my self obliged then to give you some account hereof when you shall tell me whoever of all the Bishops of Rome in a vast insolency took upon him the Empire of the whole Church under the Title of Universal Bishop before Boniface the Third took it from Phocas his Donation Untill Gregorie's time inclusively there was no such Usurpation and you know what Gregorie said of John of Constantinople for his pretending to it that whosoever did made himself the forerunner of Antichrist But if I would answer the answer would be easie and it is ready you have it alreadie in a Testimonie out of Tertullian in his Prescriptions it may be you took no notice of it then nor did I urge it to this purpose by way of Application to our Church thus That which we are the Scriptures were from the beginning we are of them before it was otherwise before they were corrupted by you Then we are as ancient as may be for our Doctrine and Sacraments they are found in the Records of Scripture And if Campian says All the Fathers were his and yours we may say the Apostles are ours Nay the Fathers
are not yet proved to be yours in the main difference betwixt us nor I think can you prove them to be yours without corruption of the Text or of the sense by you in any other point of importance betwixt us Nay how many of your Roman Communion have given Testimonie to us in Substance of Doctrine besides â—erus whom you have abused as I told you therefore to make him after death speak false to Truth and himself Nay we are what the Roman Church was before the Roman Church was what it should not be and what it was not in the purest Primitiveness and therefore your additional Doctrines which and your universal Jurisdiction pretended have made the breach and discontinued our Communion we could not have from Rome then when it had them not And therefore it is not proper for us to be Opponents for we are upon the Negative Doe you shew that a flourishing visibilitie is necessary to the Church and how it is like to be in your Church in the time of Antichrist according to your Doctrine and how it held in the time of the Arrian persecution Do you shew that you have had in your Communion all the Holy men and none other and then you will do a miracle And let us hear of it no more until it be done As he said Landari non potest nisi peractum Go on with your design and let it be a real defence of your cause by a solid and substantial maintenance of the points you hold and we deny but doe not offer to deceive us with old shooes and clouted and mouldie bread and old raggs and and old bottles as if you came from a far Countrie that you might be of a League together as the Gibeonites couzned the Israelites If you do we shall endevour to discover it Therefore rather think of that of our Saviour Saint Matt. 9.16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth to an old garment for that which filleth up taketh from the Garment and the rent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is made worse And now methinks I should end but for the conclusion shewing as you say my Replie to your papers to be fully answered in your former discourse Sir this is verie odd that you will not answer particucularly my premisses and yet I must combate with your conclusion And yet if I have answered your premisses in the Lawes of Disputation I have nothing to do with your conclusion And therefore whatsoever part of your discourse you refer me to in this your conclusion for my answer to the first Replie since it is punctually answered by me in the matter of it needs not to be shewed by me to be insufficient for my answer For besides that you leave me to find my own condemnation in your paper where I can which is a mightie labour and it may be impossible whereas you will urge a particular formal Judge to hear and determin besides this you may understand that that which is not true in it self as I have shewed as well as you the contrarie cannot answer me for it cannot answer for it self being false and therefore the product of it were it rightly applied in the form would be null Yet have I a fancie that since somewhat in it is not said before by you and somewhat you do charge me with if I should give no Replie thereunto you would think that the cause were wanting or I to it I shall therefore where there is need briefly run it through First you say that I said there was little reason for me to rejoyn because in your paper you wave the Application of it to the Roman Church You make your apologie that it was to no end until I had granted that some Church was the ground of Faith A man must first prove to a Jew that the Messias is come and then he must prove that Christ was this Messias So you I Answer That I think I gave you the true Reason of your not including the Roman Church in your prosecution of the Catholick Church before But in that you say that first a man must prove the Messias to be come before that he proves Christ to be the Messias you speak not congruouslie for Christ and Messias are all one in different Languages you mean that Jesus is the Messias For the Jewes acknowledged Jesus but not Christ But let that passe According to your Doctours you could not abstract the Catholick Church from the Roman Church as I have told you since they include the Pope as Head in the definition of the Catholick Church and that which belongs to the nature of a thing you cannot abstract from it for then you should make a falsitie in your abstraction for then you should conceive the nature of it without that which is necessarie to the nature And that which follows as you say by consequent from the Catholick to the Roman is formerly denied Secondly you say that I say that I might still have left you to answer your first paper with your second And so I say still You Replie that this is onely to stand to what I have said as you also do Let the Reader judge with indifferencie And I say let the Reader or the world judge with indifferencie which of us doth most stand to his supposition without reason or who is most likely to doe so I or you who are so captivated to and by your infallibilitie which you must stand out in by it self which is the Question and if you offer to prove it by Scripture you come upon our ground Thirdlie you say I say you doe not conclude contradictorilie and I say so still You Replie that you alwaies conclude the Churches authoritie to be a sufficient ground ground of Faith and I say it is an insufficient ground Answer But you do not consider that your Arguments or Testimonies doe not conclude the Church a sufficient ground and therefore whether you as a Disputant doe conclude contradictorilie let the Reader judge Nextlie you come to my Eight answers as you divide my last paper And in my first answer you say I spent seven pages to prove the Scripture to be a sufficient ground of Faith So then I have made by your confession my word good that I would give you a proof by Testimonies that the Scripture is a sufficient ground of Faith which I have done with Reasons also thereupon But you triumph this this it is not to conclude contradictorilie And why so You say that I should have concluded that the Church cannot be a sufficient ground of Faith which may be and is true though it also be most true that the Scripture is a most sufficient ground of Faith when it is once known by an infallible authoritie to be the Word of God and also when we evidentlie know that such and such is the undoubted sense of Scripture Thus you But first are there two sufficient grounds of Faith or not as to the same Objects
the not being a rule upon this account the traditions and the testimonies of the Fathers cannot be a rule because they have been abused Thirdly We do not intend the use of the judgement of discretion to rest in that upon an interpretation nor do we oppose it to the authoritie of the Church but we say this must be satisfied in Articles and matters of Faith notwithstanding the decisions of the Church by consonance thereof to Scripture otherwise it cannot give the assent of Divine Faith Every one must be perswaded in his own mind although he doth not make his own sense This private judgement should neither be blind nor heady it respects authoritie but joyneth only with appearance of the Word of God That which you say to the seventh answer was examined before That which you say to the eighth answer will not serve to save you from differing from your self which indeed if it were in way of retractation would not be reprehensible as Saint Austin speaks in the Preface of his Retractations Neque enim nisi imprudens c. for neither will any but an unwise man reprehend me because I reprehend my errours But if you have a mind to see the difference betwixt you and you you may thus Before you said that the ground of believing is the authoritie of the Church since you have said in your second paper that it is the authoritie of God revealing If there be no difference why do you not keep your terms as a Disputant should do But you say your reply is exceeding easie the ground of our faith is God revealing and God revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first belief when he tells us by his Church such and such books are infallibly his word So you Now then if you make the authoritie of God revealing to be the ground and cause of faith then it is not the authoritie of the Church because although God doth reveal by his Church yet is not the authoritie of the Church the ground of faith but Gods authoritie for the Church is but as a Messenger or Ambassadour which we do not believe for himself but for his Letters of Credence from his Master and so is it the authoritie of Gods revealing which is the ground of faith And this is made out by that you say to compound your variance You say the ground of our faith is God revealing and Gods revealing by his Church as he first causeth our first belief when he tells us by his Church such and such books are infallibly his word then the authoritie is his whereby we believe and not the authoritie of the Church which is but Miniâ—terial And by your own argument are you undone for if the Church be the ground of faith and not the Scripture because by the Church we believe such and such books to be Canonical as you have said before and also here below in this Reply to my eight Answer then also the Authoritie of the Church is not the ground of faith because we must first believe Gods authoritie revealing it to his Church before we believe the Church But also to take notice of that Argument of yours here it is false For we must first believe the authoritie of Scripture before we can believe any authoritie of the Church For the Church as such hath all from Scripture as I have shewed And therefore by your own argument are you undone again for if that be the ground of faith which is first then the Scripture not the Church and therefore the Church may be disputed not the Scripture which we do understand by way of Intelligence through a supernatural light and cannot demonstrate as we may the Church by principles of Scripture Again you seem to differ from your self because now you hold that the Church is the ground of our faith in all particulars causally because by it we believe the Scripture but before the faith of a Catholick which you mean generally must consist in submitting his understanding and adhering to the Church and in believing every thing because she proposeth it so your first paper in terminis terminantibus But now when we believe the Scripture by the Church we may believe that which is plain in it by it self because it saith it not because the Church saith it Do not you now somewhat yield not to me but to truth Truth will be too hard for any one that hath not committed the sin against the Holy Ghost and yet also will it be too hard for him though he denies it Consider then what you have said and what you think and judge how the Masters of your Church will answer it at Gods Tribunal for that everlasting cheating of simple souls with the mysterie of implicite faith And that also which you so much repeat that we must receive Canonical books by the Infallible authoritie of the Church is not yet grown beyond the height of a postulate It hath been often denied you upon necessitie and it did not obtain it seems universally in the practice of the Church or else some of your Apocriphal books were not accounted Canonical for Cyrill of Jerusalem in his fourth Catechese where he speaks in part of the Scriptures he accounts not in the number the Maccabees you spoke of nor some others Yea for the reception of books Canonical Saint Jerome gives another reason of embracing but four Gospels in his Preface upon the Comment upon Saint Matthew not because the Church owned no more as you would have Saint Austin to be understood but he doth prove that there are but four by compare of that of Ezekiel with that of the Apocalypse about the foure beasts which doe represent as he interprets their meaning the four Evangelists You go on and say God revealing is alwayes the formall Object of faith Before every thing was to be believed as proposed by the Church because she proposeth it so that the formal Object of things to be believed was as proposed by the Church under that consideration But sometimes God revealeth his mind by Scripture sometimes by the Church as he did two thousand years and more before the Scriptures were written So you Well then now he reveales himself by Scripture contradistinctly to the Church as well as by the Church contradistinctly to Scripture which you put in one behalf of your unwritten word So then we may believe him immediately by Scripture but whether we can believe him immediately by tradition without Scripture wants conviction Neither doe you exhibit a reason of this Opinion by that which follows that for two thousand years and upwards before the Scriptures were written he revealed himself by the Church This as before is not enough to sustain traditional Doctrine because the Scripture in the substance of it was before it was written but you cannot evince that the word not written is as certain to us as the word before it was written was unto them And the Reason may be taken from
the 17. Numb Thirdly that this Judge could be no other then the true Church to the 21. Numb Fourthly that the true Church is infallible in her judging points of Faith to the 17. Numb Fifthly That this true Church which is our infallible Judge is the Roman Church to 29 and last Numb Lastly followed the Conclusion My answer therefore must have five more chapters to shew the Reply made against that Treatise to be unsatisfactory in every particular argument opposed against me in all these five points 3. There might have been added another chapter to examine what my adversary saith concerning the Conclusion of my Treatise But as he himself Page 112. observeth very well he might have spared his Reply against my Conclusion because it containeth no new thing appertaining to the main Controversie but it was made onely to shew that in the handling of the main Controversie I had answered all his paper which I did there run over in order And therefore in his answers to all I had said about the main Controversie he had given up his answers to all that which is onely run over again in the conclusion Neither know I any reason that I gave him to fansie as he saith he doth that I should either think a good cause wanting to him or him wanting to a good cause unlesse he had answered my Conclusion apart though something were in it not said before by me and some few things in which I charge him But Sir that which I stand upon is the main question and the proof or disproof of it Nor will I judge so hardly of you as to think you will conceive either my cause worse or me a worse defender of it because I tire not my self and my Reader with our personal debates when they concern not the main question in which both of us have been so large And so as you thought you might have ended when you came to that conclusion so I think I may well end when I have answered those hundred Pages and more which I met with before I come thither though there still remained something which concerned our private debates For if that which hath been said before doth not satisfie no great satisfaction will be added by going on a little further in the same strain in matters lesse to the matter The first CHAPTER The Answer to my Preface Confuted 1. YOur first words intimate that you fear least your silence should make me seem to my self or others to have got the Victory Sir your Reply is most welcome in this respect that it doth more help me then your silence could not to seem to have got but really to get that Victory which I desire not to my selfe but to truth For the examination of your Reply will serve for a Touch-stone to my Arguments I will follow you as you desire step after step and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. To shew the necessity of treating the matter I had undertaken I said that such a manner of reading the Scripture as is permitted by you to all sorts of people with so unlimited a Licence to interpret them according to their own private judgement of discretion as a thing most apt to cause a numberlesse number of Sects and Heresies A priori this is proved thus You permit any Artificer who can read to take the Bible into his hand and to take it for his sole and onely Iudge of all necessary Controversies And though all the force and efficacy of the words of Scripture consist in the true sence and sincere Interpretation of it yet when all comes to all you leave this Interpretation to be made by every Reader though never so unskilful with so great Latitude that though a General Council of the greatest Doctors which could be gathered together should have defined such and such a point for undoubted true Doctrine and to be held so according to Scripture yet you permit any Cobler to make a Review of this Decree and if he hearing all that can be said on the one side and on the other judgeth at last that the whole Councel hath erred in interpreting Scripture you leave him free to hold himself so strongly to his own interpretation as if it were the true sence of Gods Word neither will you hear of any Obligation which he hath interiorly to submit his judgement which is the seat of true faith or errour to any other Iudge upon earth For surely if he be left by your Principles so free in the choice of his interpretation of Scripture as not to be obliged to submit interiorly to a whole General Council he hath far greater freedom in not being obliged to submit to any other private Doctours Is not this to leave men in a mighty hazard of misunderstanding Gods Word and falling into Heresie Secondly the same is proved a posteriori in those places where the sacred Scriptures are thus prostituted not only to the bare reading but also to the interpretation of every profane and ignorant fellow I still mean when he shall have heard or seen what can be alledged on all sides there and onely there Sects have multiplied and do multiply beyond measure 3. Neither do any of your arguments prove this not to be the true cause of Heresies and bad life which followeth Heresie First it is so far from being contrary to that Text You erre not knowing the Scripture that it is most agreeable to it For a most fit way to erre against the knowledge of Scripture is to permit such and a great number of such men to interpret Scriptures as are most fit to erre in the interpretation of them especially being licensed to cross all Antiquity and all the Authority of the Church if these stand in their way And I wonder why you call this your manner of proceeding The knowledge of Scripture If the works of these famous Physitions Galen and Hipocrates were thrust into all Trades-mens hands and every one of them were licensed to interpret as they sincerely thought best would you call this The knowledge of Physick especially if every one might be permitted to hold his interpretation against a General Assembly of most learned Physitians Secondly you in vain object that of Saint Paul That the Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation Far was it from the intention of Saint Paul to speak of the Scriptures interpreted by every giddy fansie for thus they may be the occasion of our damnation Saint Paul said they were able to make Timothie wise to salvation because he was a man who did continue in the things which he learned and had been assured of to wit by the Oral tradition of the Doctours of the Church A man knowing of whom he had learned these things and these traditions Let such men read Scriptures and let them with such interpretations understand them and they will make them wise to salvation and to continue still assured of the Doctrine of the Church and never to
proposed the question they put down the reasons which seem to make against the truth This was done to my hand in your first paper Then they set down the Truth and the Reasons of it and this Saint Thomas in his Quaestionibus fasiùs disputatis doth sometimes very largely and this I did to your hand in my last paper Lastly they solve the former Objections against truth by reference to such Reasons as they in their Proofs did shew the truth to be grounded upon And this in my conclusion I shewed my self to have performed or if any little thing were wanting I did supply it Wherefore though I had not your consent to proceed thus with your paper yet I content my self with having the consent of the best Schoolmen My intention in rejoyning by a Treatise was to have this most important matter distinctly orderly and fully put down And by having done so I find this great commoditie that your answer becomes more Methodical and my Reply to your Answer more clear and perspicuous And the Reader seeth still how orderly the combat is The Second CHAPTER The necessitie of a Judge in all Controversies to whom all are bound to submit 1. IN the beginning of your Answer Of my first Number to what I said concerning this point you go about to perswade us that we Recusants who upon this account are liable to loose two parts of our Estates and what else you are or shall be pleased to take from us be it goods liberty or life that we I say are most likely to take up our Religion by prejudice Doubtless you must think us first to be very noble contemners of the world whose greatest commodities do not hinder us from looking upon even with prejudice a Religion so manifestly prejudicial to us and so your own Tertullians saying fitly checks you for being one who cannot see so manifest Verities as be in our Religion you perswade your self to see certain Falsities which so manifestly be not in it let us come to the matter Of my second Number 2. God having made man to a supernatural end to be attained by supernatural means among which the first is true faith it is clear that he must according to his merciful Providence provide us some way to this faith so easie that all if they pleased might be brought to the knowledge of it And because the far greater part of men were ignorant it beseemed his goodnesse who is the Lover of Souls to provide us such a way as these ignorant men should not be able unless by wilfully carelesness to erre by it according to that of the Prophet Esay 35. promising at the coming of the Messias A Path and a way which shall be so direct to us that fools cannot erre by it To elude this Text You say sure may we be that the Letter doth respect the Jewish Church after their Redemption from Captivity I answer if this be sure then sure it is That God directeth the Jewish Church by a way so direct that fools could not erre by it And if he did this to the Jewish Church there can be no good reason why he should be less careful to direct the ignorant of the Church of Christ Whence you see I had no reason to have feared this Interpretation Yet I think it is sure that this is not the true interpretation for when did the blind see deaf hear when did then God himself come and save us And if you will have our Saviour himself to be this way as he said I am the Truth and the Way this self same Saviour said I who am this way am with you untill the consummation of the world to wit directing my Church the right way to salvation of which direction the Church hath no lesse need now then then And as we could not securely have put a limitation to these words of Joel if Saint Peter had not secured us of the true sense so cannot you here limit these words not having the like warrant for it And as for the first part of Miracles it is manifest by our Saviour his own words Those who believed in him should do greater then he had done If then this Text was Verified after our Saviours time you cannot say it is onely spoke of his time and that he did take away a way so necessary for us His guifts being without Repentance And it is strange that you thinking this guift Litterally conferred to the Jewish Church should with the same breath plead so hard that it is a guift which should not in full dimension be alwayes extended to the Church I cannot believe that you trust your other argument If this way be promised to the Church Ergo the Church is not this way Suppose God had promised the Kingdome of France a Monarchy Ergo the Kingdome of France say you is not this Monarchy The true consequence is Ergo The Kingdome of France is this Monarchie The Church is this way which God promised it should be And it is so by the sure guidance of him who is the way and is with his Church ruling it until the continuation of the world And so Christ is Regula regulans and the Church Regula regulata But being ruled by him there is not the least danger that it will swerve from the VVord of God and you may well follow such a Guide with blind obedidience And still I must mind you that I speak of the Universal Church represented in a General Council confirmed by the Supreme Pastor This Church guiding by her infallible doctrine is this way the Church Diffusive guided now by this Doctrine was promised this Direct way such a way we were promised a way so direct represented that fools cannot erre by it The Scripture as some may conceive for you dare not defend it is not this way for we see with our eyes not onely fools but also most learned men to erre grosly and to follow most contradictory opinions whilest they professe from their hearts to follow Scripture as neer as they can the Scripture therefore is not this way yet such a way we must find to make Gods promise good Nothing then with any probabilitie can be said to be this way but the Visible Church of Christ For the Church Invisible as such is no way according to your Confession The visible Church then is this Judge by submission to her judgement we in all things are secured Of my third Number 3. Whence what you say against my third Number is easily answered For all Religions agreeing that there must be one Judge of all Controversies which either be or may be in Religion they must all give infallibility to their Judge as you your selves do affirming Gods written Word to have plainly set down all things necessary to salvation so that no necessary controversie can spring up but this Judge as you say doth decide it which how false it is I shall fully shew chap. 3. All other
Sectaries agreeing with you in this point I understand not how you could say that none but we held a Judge infallible And indeed without an infallible guide every man might proceed as if your faith were fallible and so give an infallible assent to nothing I did never say that without such a judge we should be free to follow without any fault our private judgement in holding what we will as you insinuate but I said otherwise every man might be free to believe what he judged best and so we should have as many Religions as there be private and different judgements Had you put these my words you had not had a word to say But you thought good to put such words as you knew how to answer and to leave out my true words and to say nothing to the argument by which I proved them And so that argument still standing in force all that you say against your own saying is from the purpose 4. You adde that you doe not say we should follow our own judgement of discretion without means of regulating our judgements But mark how in the next words you take away all means for to take away all infallible means is to take away all means able to produce an infallible assent to faith to have us surely guided in matters of faith for you say yet after we have perused the Definitions of Councils we cannot resign up our assents to their Dictates upon their account but do examine as the Bereans did which Saint Paul said untill we can find them resolved into the infallible Rule of Holy Scripture So you far from the spirit of that great Saint Gregory who said Li. 1. Ep. 24. I do professe my self to reverence the first foure Councils as I reverence the four Books of the Gospel And in like manner I do receive the fifth Council whosoever is of another mind let him be an Anatheme Thus he received all the lawful General Councils which had been before him for there were but five But whereas you will not resign up your assent to the Definitions of Councils until you first can find them resolved into the infallible Rule of Scripture I must tell you first that you will still be strongly pressed to shew upon what infallible principle you take Scripture by an infallible assent to be the undoubted Word of God and then you shall see how the whole Machin of your religion topleth tumbleth to the ground for there cannot be a more groundles ground See of this chap. 3. Numb 20. then that ground upon which you by rejecting the infallible authoritie of the Church are forced to build your whole religion to wit that you by the meer reading of the Scripture can by its Light as you discover the Sun by its Light discover it so manifestly to be the undoubted Word of God that this discovery sufficeth to ground your infallible assent to this veritie And it must be a far surer discovery then that by which we discover the Sunne by his Light for this discovery can onely ground a natural certaintie the other discovery must ground a supernatural not certainly but infallibly Secondly I must tell you that these your proceedings to a private review after you have perused the Definitions of the Councils to examine them until you find them resolved into the infallible Rule of Scripture of which resolution you make your private judgements the Iudge to open awide gap to Heresie as I have shewed in the last chapter Numb 2. And for the importance of the matter I will here again further declare in an example which hereafter also will stand me in much use Let us take an Arrian Cobler to this man this your Doctrine giveth the final review of the Council of Nice and you give him leave after he hath perused the definitions of this Council defining God the Son to be of the self same individual substance with his Father to examine them until he find them resolved into the infallible rule of Scripture He doth examine them and chiefly how they agree with that text I and my Father are one on which Text you * Chap. 4. Number 57. afterwards confess the infallibilitie of this definition to be chiefly grounded and therefore St. Athanasius did press it thrice Now in the examining of the conformity of this definition with this text the Arrian Cobler by his poor understanding is easily able to see that which a wiser man would yet see sooner that he is put upon a necessitie to inquire how God the Son and his Father are one whether it be by affection onely as Arrians hold or One in the self same individual substance as the Councel defineth and inquiring this he calls to his mind that other text Jo. 17. v. 21. where Christ prayeth That all his Disciples may be one thing as thou Father in me and I in thee Here will this Cobler say because he hath often been instructed by his own Doctors Christ who said I and my Father are one thing demandeth that his Disciples may be one thing as he and his Father are one thing But he doth not demand that his Disciples may be all one thing in the self same individual substance Therefore he concludes Christ is not one thing in the selfe same individuall substance with his Father but one thing in affection onely as his Disciples might come to be one thing False therefore would he say is this definition of the Council which cannot be resolved into the infallible Word of God in which all things necessary to salvation as this point is are plainly set down as this point is not for this is the plainest place and yet conferring it with the other I find it not evidently agreeing with the Definition of the Council but rather evidently against it by which I conclude in this my Review the Definition of the Council to be false Most learned Sir either convince this Cobler by some clearer Text of Scripture which I am sure if this Text fail is impossible or else to the eternal good of misled souls confesse that if once you give private men leave to make a Review of the Definitions of Councils you can find no means upon earth to put an end unto our endless controversies the Scriptures alone not sufficing for this end as I shall shew in the next chap. without you take the Scriptures as they send us to the Church bidding us hear her under pain of being accounted Publicans and Heathens 5. Thirdly Learned Sir I must tell you that this your Doctrine maketh the Definition of true Councils and their final determinations to be indeed no Definitions nor final Determinations at all For you make all those great Fathers of the Church to assemble themselves from so remote parts of the world onely to talk and discourse about such and such points in controversie and to leave the controversies themselves undefined and undermined to be finally defined and determined onely
by those places of Scripture which places as they could not before the meeting of the Councils so they cannot after the meeting of the Council fully define determine and decide these controversies Now surely it is clear by these Acts of the first four Councils which Councils your English Church holds for lawful that the Fathers of these Councils never so much as doubted but that they had all plenitude of power and authority from God to define and finally to determine those controversies still arising And they had grievously wronged the world by Excommunicating all such as should gain-say what they had defined and determined if Errour and Falsity and Contradiction to Scripture could have been found in their Definitions and Determinations What you touch concerning the Bereans I answer fully chap. 3. Numb 14. 6. Whereas you adde fourthly That the decisions of the Church though unprovided of infallibilitie do yet oblige unto peace though their judgement cannot claim an undisputed assent yet the power they have from Christ doth require an undisturbance in the difference you teach by words what the deeds of your glorious Reformers have notoriously gainsaid Secondly seeing that a general Council as you in your first paper confess is the highest Court on Earth to hear and determine Controversies if her determinations may be erronious and these erronious determinations be to be accepted peaceably reverently and without disturbance in what a pittiful case should Gods whole Church be which having no higher Court from which relief might be hoped is bound to conform and subscribe to erroneous definitions and all preachers are silenced and obliged not to open their mouth against these errours Did it beseem the wisedome of Christ to appoint such a Government in his Church which should leave open so wide a gap to errors which being by command from the highest authoritie on earth preached by so many and not so much as contradicted by one must needs increase to a wonderful height Would any wise Law-makers proceed thus if they could help it as well as Christ could by continuing in his Church that infallibility which you will confesse it had those two thousand years before Scripture was written and which this Church of Christ had before all the whole Canon of the New Testament was finished which was for the first fourty years of the Church 7. Vain is your fear that we should become Hypocrites in differing by one outward Act from our inward act of belief for any wise man may inwardly perswade himself although I by my force of wit cannot see how such a point defined by a whole general Council should be true yet if I have wit I cannot but perswade my self even according to humane wisedome that so grave a judgement of a whole Council is far more likely to see the truth then my private judgement and therefore rather to be interiorly imbraced Again I may discourse thus All the places alleadgeable against the Definitions of Councils or of Scriptures be places clear or not clear if not clear then clearly I am imprudent and impudent to oppose in a point not clear my private judgement of discretion against the publick judgement of all Christendome far more likely in a point not clear to hit upon the truth then I am Now if these places alledgable against the Definitions of Councils be clear and evident it is an evident and clear folly in me to think that so wise an Assembly should have so universal a blindnesse as that none of them should be able to discover that which is clear and evident even in my short sight See chap. 4. Numb 51. Again I may and ought to know that the Holy Ghost hath promised an assistance to his Church sufficient to secure it from bringing in any error as I shall shew chapter 4 Numb 28.29 30 31 32 33 34 35. And this Principle will beat down to the ground all Opposition which an humble soul can make who will captivate her understanding in this case unto the obedience of faith as the Apostle speaketh 8. And when you ask me wherein you oppose general Councils I answer First that you oppose them even in that most fundamental ground upon which all Councils hitherto have still supposed themselves to set as Judges with full Commission to determine securely all controversies obliging all Christians to conform to their Definitions by such Censures as were still held to be ratified in Heaven Others will tell you divers other Oppositions you have with Councils and even in this place you tell all how little you credit Councils when you charge them with speaking contradictions But when you come to speak your mind more largely you do your uttermost endeavours to make the world think that they have not sufficient assurance that any Council was as yet a Lawful General Council I need no further proof of these your endeavours then all those manifold Objections which you put and I answer in my 4. chapter Numb 20.21 9. And when you ask again why you are charged as if you were opposite to the true Catholike Church I answer Christ had in all ages since his time a true Catholik Church and consequently he had such a Church upon earth when your Reformation as you call it began But at this your Reformation you did oppose in very many and very important points of doctrine not onely the Roman but all other Churches upon earth Therefore without doubt you opposed the truly Catholike Church in many and very important points And in plain English I tell you this argument which is in lawful form is unanswerable And when you say that when you differ without opposition you keep the peace of the Church without question I answer That your Reformers did apparently in many and most important points differ from all Churches Christ had then upon the Earth in opinion of publick Doctrine censuring such and such Points as they all held to be Erronious Superstitious opposite to the Word of God and in this opposition you continue still though in this whole age you have not been able to name one age in this last thousand years in which Christ had a truly Catholike Church upon Earth agreeing with you in those many and most important points in which your Reformers taxed us to have opposed the Scriptures And as for exterior division you cannot name the Church upon earth from which you did not divide your selves at your Reformation And I challenge you to tell me if you can to what Church on Earth then visible you did joyn your selves or who acknowledged you to be of their communion 10. To prove yet further that we are not bound to submit our judgements to the Church you use as you say my own argument That we are bound to submit our judgement onely to those who can judge of the inward act But Sir I never said any such thing for how know we whether the Scripture Writers or the Apostles themselves did know without
which knowledge they could not judge of the interior Acts of all men from their time to the end of the world and yet all these men upon due Proposition of their Doctrine are obliged to submit their interior acts to their Doctrine But I said that which you had rather a mind to mistake then answer For I said That Christ should have left a very miserable Church and should have gathered a most heart-dis-united sort of people if after the reading of Scriptures after which they wrangle so fiercely He had left them no other Judge but their own private judgements subject to such varietie in understanding the Scriptures what Law-maker said I was ever so inconsiderate as to leave only a Book of Lawes to his Common-wealth without any living Judge to whom all were to submit Then I added True it is that to submit exteriorly to Temporal Judges sufficeth they being able onely to judge of the exterior man Did I say this of general Councils No did I not as it were to prevent your Objection expresly adde But God in whose name the Church teacheth and commandeth all which she teacheth and commandeth searcheth the heart and the reynes and looketh upon the minde which is the seat of true or false belief This God I say chiefly exacteth that those of his Church be of one faith interiorly or else they be not of one faith for faith essentially consisteth in the interior judgement He hath all reason to exact that interiorly they be all of one faith For he could not seriously have desired their salvation without he required of them by way of most rigorous obligation to do that which is so wholy necessary to salvation that without it no man is saved For without true faith it is impossible to please God This and much more to this effect I presse there hotly and yet I am not so much as answered coldly 11. But you skip to my admiration at your doctrine which indeed giveth a very admirable licence to any Cobler to peruse the Decrees of general Councils and to reject them too if in his review of them he doth not find them Resolved into the infallible text of clear Scripture Of which Doctrine I have already spoken fully Num. 4. And I think I had reason to say that the wisest man in the world is then most likely to erre when in his interiour judgement he goeth quite contrary to all Christendome Of this I have given a very clear Reason here in my 7. Number which will stop your mouth from calling every where to have me prove the Churches infallibility until you come to my 4 chapter or if it doth not I must desire you in this place to turn unto it And in the very next chapter I shall shew that though the Scripture be most infallible yet it is not sufficient by it self alone unlesse you take it as it sends us to the Church to decide all controversies As for Saint Athanasius did ever he oppose his judgement against the Definition of a lawful general Council Nay did it not appear by the Council of Nice standing for his Doctrine that he might well know the true Church lawfully assembled under the lawful Pastor confirming their Acts would teach as he taught And because he knew this authority relying on the assistance of the Holy Ghost to be more then humane he might well oppose a greater human authority By the way it is strange you should carp at us for calling our selves Roman Catholiks as if say you no others were Catholikes whereas to avoid this very strife impertinent now to our purpose I used that very name by which no others are excluded And in this impertinent strife you say many things of which you prove not one 12. I passe to that which is pertinent to the purpose that it is a very desperate consequence flowing from the premisses of your Doctrine permitting any private person so to peruse the Definitions of Councils that he might freely reject them in his private judgement which is the seat of all Faith if he judged them not to be resolved into the infallible authority of Scripture upon this ground that we have nothing infallible but the Texts of Scripture For these Texts being not able to decide all necessary controversies I still adde unlesse you take them as they send us to the Church by themselves as I shall fully shew in the next Chapter it is clear that we shall remain disputing without end or possibility of end unless God hath given an infallible assistance to the Church wherefore not to grant such an absurdity we are necessitated to expound those Scriptures promising that Christ will be with his Church unto the end of the world That he will send them the Spirit of Truth to abide with them to teach them all Truth that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her That we must hear her under pain of being accounted Publicans and Heathens That she is the Pillar and ground of Truth and diverse others of which I speak chapter 4. to be extended to an infallible assistance for an assistance joyned with fallibilitie will still leave us jarring as appears by our own Doctrine 13. Being loath to stand too long to such a consequence you make a long impertinent discourse about the perusal of the collection of all the judgements of all the Fathers of all Ages every where Good Sir tell me what connexion hath the perusal of every judgement of every Father of every Age every where with that Obligation which I put of following these Cannons of Councils which make to the decisions of those most known controversies about which we contend Is the judgement of every Father of every Age the judgement of a general Council Why then do you run your self out of breath in inpugning that which is nothing to our purpose and which I never spake of rather then in holding close to the matter But since you first bring the authority of Councils to a little more then nothing and here again the authority of the Fathers to a little lesse then nothing in order to the ending of controversies this your violence against any provocation to Antiquity and consent of Fathers Will give me leave to make this Treatise much shorter then at the beginning appeared possible For it is evident out of your own words that it is to no end to deal with you out of Fathers and I am resolved to deal with no body but to some end I will therefore humour you in this and I will lay aside all that might hereafter be said concerning the Opinion of Fathers But do not think that I do this as if that what you here said against the authority of Fathers found any credit with me or as if what you say were in the least degree hard to be answered For you your self cannot be ignorant that we alledge plenty of such Holy Fathers against you as are confessed by your selves to have been the prime
whether these true and uncorrupted words of Scripture be taken in this place in their common sense or taken Figuratively or spoken mystically of some other thing Now how is it possible by Scripture onely to come to have an infallible knowledge of this for it dependeth merely on the secret free will of God to use these words here either Mystically or Figuratively or in their plain vulgar sense To know and that infallibly This secret free-will of God I must have a Revelation and such a one as no doubt can be made of it Where find I this Revelation in Scripture Fourthly your learned Sanctius De Sacra Scriptura Col. 409. having said That Holy Scripture in these things which are necessary to salvation is clear he assigns no fewer then nineteen Rules necessary to the true knowledge thereof besides the having the Spirit of God and the reading the Scripture attentively and the understanding the words and places thereof And Scharpius in Cursu Theologico de Scriptoribus controvers 8. P. 44. assigneth twenty Rules for the understanding the Scripture which unless they be kept we cannot but erre But surely it is very easie to keep them No such matter For he exacts to know Original Languages to discuss the words Phrases and Hebraisms to confer the places which are like and unlike to one another c. Tell me now do all these and the former Rules shew a plain easie way to infallibility especially we having no sure knowledge that all these fallible Rules will at last produce infallibility Good God! Is this the way promised to be so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it Fifthly I must adde a saying of your so much esteemed Chillingworth who in his Praeface Numb 30. saith No more certain Signe that a point is not evident then when honest and understanding and indifferent men and such as give themselves Liberty of Judgement after mature consideration of the matter do differ about it About how many points do you and your Brothers differ which I have in this Chapter shewed to be points mainly necessary to Salvation which according to this Rule of knowing what is evident what not are evidently not set down plainly in Scripture And to speak the plain truth this ground upon which you and yours are still forced to stand so to withstand the necessity of one Infallible living Judge seemeth a plain Paradox 6. In one sense as I have often noted we still grant all things necessary to Salvation to be set down in Scripture to wit in these Texts in which the Scripture bids us Hear the Church and that under pain of being accounted by a sentence ratified in Heaven Publicans and Heathens and that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her by any false Doctrine that She is Pillar and Ground of Truth That the Holy Ghost abideth with her for ever teaching her all Truth That Gods Spirit shall not depart from the Mouth of her seed nor her seeds seed And such like places which I shall in due place Chap. 4. Num. 58. to 64. shew most forcibly to prove this verity And the very reading of them sheweth them to be no less plain and cleer to this purpose then those places which you cry out to be evident for the proof of every point which is necessary to salvation And I am sure you can bring no such evident Texts for all yea for any of these points which I have already said in this chapter not to be evidently set down in Scripture though they be of prime necessity as others also which I shall by and by adde The Scripture alone by it self in which sense you speak doth not as these places will demonstrate set down all things necessary to salvation yet she setteth down and that first more clearly then she doth set down many such necessary points a Command to go to the Church for our full instruction So Saint Paul was taught all things necessary for his knowledge by those few words Act 9.6 Goe into the City and it shall be told what thou must do That all might see this City of the Church he placed it on a Mountain whence all necessary points are delivered from a living Oracle speaking so distinctly that no doubt can remain of the true sense or if there be made any doubt of any thing of importance this doubt will presently be cleared by some new Declaration authentically notified unto us by our Pastours and Doctours which God gave us as the Scripture saith That we should not be Children wavering and carried about with the wind of false doctrine with circumvention of error 7. But to go on with your Assertion all things necessary to salvation say you are plainly set down in Scripture This is your main foundation of Faith making you not onely to take Scriptures but to take Scriptures onely and nothing but Scriptures for the ground of your Faith this ground I say must needs be plainly set down in Scripture otherwise according to your own words What is not plainly delivered in Scripture is thereby signified not to be necessary Again if this be not plainly set down in Scripture it will remain uncertain to us whether God did intended to have all such necessary things taught us by the Scripture taken by it self alone or whether God intended the Scripture for divers other ends provinding sufficiently for this end by sending us to the Church for our further instruction That then which I call for again and again is to have plainly set down to me in Scripture that God intended by the Scriptures taken by themselves all alone to teach us with infallibility all things necessary to salvation shew me the Texes 8. You go about to shew me them And first you press the second time that of Saint Paul to Timothy 2.15 16. Take for my first answer that which I gave you when you first alledged this place chap. 1. Numb 3. And you must pardon me if I say that place speaketh of Scriptures interpreted by the Church to whom I think it is fitter to give this Office then to let every Cobler usurp it as I have shewed you do chap. 1. Numb 2. and chap. 2. Numb 4. the Scriptures thus profaned and by such interpretations truly discanoned as I may say are rather subject to that effect which Saint Paul his Epistles according to St. Peter had with some men that is they are subject to be depraved by them to the perdition of their Interpreters where by the way you are again to take notice that St. Peter saith Interpreters depraved those places of Saint Paul to their damnation though these places were hard as Saint Peter saith and consequently these places did not according to you doctrine contain points necessary to salvation Whence you see that your proceedings in allowing much liberty of Interpretations even in hard points may easily prove damnable It was then true which I told you in another place That though the Scripture be
a most right Rule yet it is very commonly so crookedly applied that we stand in need of a better security of the interpretation of it in which the very carnel of the Letter doth consist then we have of the interpretation finally stood unto made by the private judgement of our own discretion I know your Answer is that it is accidental to this Rule to be misapplied and that this cannot infringe the authoritie of Scripture It doth not indeed infringe the Authority of Scripture used as God would have it used with due submission to the publick interpretation of his Church Otherwise not for want of infallibilitie in Scripture but by the abundance of fallibility in our private judgements of discretion it followeth that we poor creatures shall be subject to be misled most pittifully without God doth provide us of an infallible interpreter Neither is this to speak more irreverently of Scriptute then Saint Peter spoke of Saint Pauls Epistles Nothing more clear then that the words of Scripture are capable of several senses and when the senses be several it must needs depend upon the inward and most secret intention of God to have had an intention to use these words to such or such a sense onely or to both if he pleased How shall we infallibly know Gods secret intention but by an interpreter having infallible assistance from the same Holy Spirit who assisted those who did write the Scripture Wherefore we cannot but wonder to see how much scope you give to such poor creatures as ignorant men are by thrusting the whole Bible into every mans hands and investing him with so ample a faculty to interpret it without any interior submission to the Church although the interior judgement be the very seat of damnable error or saving Truth that he may follow in his judgement what he shall sincerely judge to be truest In so much that he may in his own interpretation stand out in his judgement against the interpretations of whole General Councils And yet this very self same man is wisely by you sent to the Minister And any Minister of the Gospel say you but I must not say Any General Council is able competently through the Scripture to direct the People to their happiness And the Scripture was inspired to this purpose Happy Ministers Happy people led so securely Only unhappy misled people are we who had rather say The Scripture was inspired that through it General Councils might securely direct the people to their happiness then say with my good adversary any Minister of the Gospel is able competently through the Scripture to direct the people to their happinesse And the Scriptures were inspired to this purpose Doe but allow me this to the Church that it can competently through the Scripture direct the people their happiness and we will not contend with you whether this competent direction to happiness shall be called an infallible direction or no though we think it most certain that no fallible direction can competently direct the people to happiness Now because by the way I did say our Church could not erre in damnative errors you conceive me to grant that it may erre in points not damnative No Sir when I said these words I did only take and subsume that which you your selves most commonly grant unto the Church that it cannot erre in damnative matters This alone giveth her a main advantage over any Minister or any private Interpreter This alone giveth a demonstrable reason why we should not follow our own interpretations which may be damnative as those interpretations were which some men made of Saint Pauls Epistles to their own perdition as Saint Peter saith And surely such Interpretations are then likely to be damnative when they are flatly contrary to the Interpretations of the Church What Commission the Church had for her infallibilitie I shall shew in due place And to shew it more fully I will press again your Text and give a second answer unto it by answering the words following which are All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God and it is profitable for Doctrine for Reproof for Correction so your Bible reads for instruction in righteousnesse Is it given by Inspiration yes What prove you from hence but that you and yours have a notable Talent in not concluding contradictorily You should conclude thus All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God But all Doctrine given by Inspiration from God containeth plainly all things necessary to salvation Therefore all Scripture contains plainly all things necessary to salvation it doth this taking the word Necessary and the word plainly as I have shewed they must be taken in the beginning of this chapter Well but you will hit of it by and by after three or foure Consequences of no Consequence For you goe thus on Is not all Scripture profitable for Doctrine Yes in a high Degree it teacheth most eminent Vertues and among other Vertues it teacheth most wholesome submission and obedience to the Church and by her all things necessary for salvation And thus the Scripture by her self alone is very profitable But Sir I expected a Contradictory Conclusion Deduce me from these words this Consequence Ergo God intended by the Scriptures alone to teach us with infallibilitie all things necessarie to salvation or all things necessary to salvation are plainly set down in Scripture still understanding these words as I in the beginning shewed they must be understood Go on Is it not profitable for reproof Yes Sir But where is the contradictorie Conclusion I expected Is it not profitable for correction Yes But I want still this Contradictorie Conclusion Is it not profitable for instruction in Righteousnesse Yes And now all your Powder is spent and you have not hit the marke for I have not yet the Contradictorie Conclusion I so long expected Hear now a true Contradictorie Conclusion against your selfe out of this Text. That which in this Text is said onely to be profitable for these ends is not thereby said to be sufficient even to these ends and yet much lesse sufficient to end all Controversies necessary to Salvation by it self alone But the Scripture in this Text is only said to be profitable to these ends here expressed Therefore it is not hereby said to be sufficient and that by it self alone even to these ends and much less by it self alone sufficient to end all Controversies necessary to salvation plainly setting down what is to be held in all things necessary to Salvation Again for a third answer You cannot say St. Paul spoke these words of the New Testament which for some fourty years after Saint Paul spoke these words was not finished Therefore Saint Paul in this Text doth not so much as speak of the whole Canon of Scripture whence he is most weakly cited to prove from hence that the whole Canon containeth clearly all things necessary to salvation Again when this is proved it is manifest that part of the
us to keep his Commandements 56. You go on as if I found fault with Scripture I only find fault with those who affirm Scripture to have been intended by God for an end to which I shew it never was intended Because if it had been intended by God to teach us clearly all things necessarie to salvation otherwise then by sending us to the Church and by bidding us keep our received Traditions it would have set the things down clearly and distinctly and not have left these points to be picked out one out of one book another out of another no man knoweth directly where yea divers books contained not so much as one of these points which you hold necessarie to salvation especially in plain and clear terms And those books which do contain such points do intermingle so many other lesse necessarie points or points of doubtful necessitie with those which are wholly necessarie without ever telling us of this lesse or greater necessitie that all the whole Bible must be very carefully and very attentively read over which is impossible because divers whole Books of the Bible are lost before a man can come to the infallible knowledge of such points as you will say are necessarie which points you say are but few and the Books of Scripture are many and divers more have been written and quite lost and how can we tell whether all these we have now contain all points necessarie For the most you pretend is that in the whole Canon all points necessarie were delivered we have not the whole Canon but diverse books of it have perished Therefore we have no assurance that the Scripture we have containeth all things necessarie The Scriptures we have make a book so big that the far greater part of the world taken up with so many necessarie affairs cannot in a very long space of time read over this Book with any part of that exactnesse which according to your own Principles must be required to find out which points be necessarie to salvation For to do this they must first read over the whole Canon and yet divers books of it are lost and not to be had how shall they read them Secondly to have assurance that they have read over the whole Canon they must read over such books as we hold to be part of the true Canon to see whether they be so or no and use such diligences as are necessarie for an infallible assurance They must also note most accurately all places which may perhaps clearly deliver a necessarie point when they shall have been conferred with other places which perhaps be at the other end of the Bible or may occur to me when I lesse observe any kind of connexion with what I read before Besides this for fear Translations which are only so farre Gods Word as they agree with the Original should be taken by me for Gods true Word I must consult with the Original and with the true Original of which I cannot get an undoubted copy infallibly secured from corruption Is it likely that God who hath promised us a Way so direct unto us that fools cannot erre by it would intend to lead us by a way having so many passages open to errour These difficulties shew that God did not intend this Book to be our onely guide His wisedome directs him to the best means to compasse his intention Even our ordinarie wisedom if we had an intention to set forth a writing to end all necessarie Controversies would direct us to set down plainly and clearly in one place all those few as you say points necessarie to be believed When God determined to set down all the Jewish Ceremonies you see how fully particularly and clearly he setteth them down in Leviticus Points of faith necessarie to salvation import incomparably more then points of meer Ceremonie If then God had intended a Book by which only he was resolved to deliver unto us all points necessary to salvation these points as you say being but few he would in some one part of these books have clearly set down these few points a thousand times more importing then the points of Ceremonies Many hold that the Epistles of Saint John were written after his Apocalyps and so by order of time that they were the very last part of the Canon And yet in the very last part of this my last part of the Canon Saint Iohn saith I had many things to write but I will not with inke and pen write them But I trust we shall see thee shortly and we shall speak face to to face No man can say that these many things which St. Iohn had to write were things unnecessarie wherfore many necessary things may not be set down in the Canon And yet the Canon is very compleat in order to its true end and also in order to the ending of all Controversies by sending us to the Church for full instruction as I have shewed And it is apparently false which you say that the Scripture doth give us everie particular point which is necessarie to be believed as I have shewed in this Chapter And whereas you adde secondly That the Scripture giveth also many points not necessary you mark not that the vast number of those points among which here and there we are not assured where the necessarie points are intermingled from the beginning of the Bible to the end is a thing which would make any man far from being fully assured that Gods intention was by this Book alone to decide all Controversies about points onely necessarie which might far more easily for our capacitie have been done in some one Chapter of some one of these Books 57. After this you urge that our Church hath not decided all necessary Controversies Sir Our Doctrine is that the Church can decide any point formerly revealed when any necessity shall require it or the declaration of this point concern our Salvation Salvation hath very securely been had without the decision of those points you speak of If circumstances happen that Salvation cannot be had without their decision they will then be decided If you acknowledge a real necessity to be at all times of the infallible knowledge of those points then by your own principles you are bound to say that they are plainly set down in Scripture And I am sure our Church hath determined that we are obliged to believe all Scripture with an undoubtful beliefe either you must say these points are not necessary and then all your arguments fall of themselves or else you must say these be plainly set down in Scripture and then we are by our Church obliged to believe them with divine faith I adde that our whole Church teacheth the definitions of Councils confirmed to be infallible Submit to this Judge appointed by God who did bid us hear the Church and you shall find her definitions not to leave you ignorant of what is necessary for you to know To cavil at her you will
into the possession thereof even unto the Kingdome of God Whereas your own Musculus in Locis Tit. de Baptismo saith The Fathers denied salvation to the Children who died without Baptisme though their Parents were faithful And by reason of this necessitie of Baptisme to the salvation of Infants held so generally Calvin himself saith It was usual many Ages since even almost from the beginning of the Church that in danger of death Lay-people might baptize Institut Lib. 4. Cap. 15. Numb 20. And to say the contrarie were to crosse all Antiquitie as your Bilson confesseth in his Conference at Hampton Court Hooker saith no lesse in his 5. book of Ecclesiast Policy 62. A number of other learned Protestants are against your Opinion But I say lesse of this point for your own Opinion giveth me advantage enough to prove what I intend that is a point to be necessarie and yet not plainly set down in Scripture if you grant that there is a Precept necessary to be fulfilled by Parents that they procure their Children to be baptized But why God should command this the Children being as well saved without it according to you as with it still remains to be proved I stand upon your grant of this Precept as necessarily to be fulfilled by the Parents This Precept is necessary to be fulfilled This Precept is not plainly set down in Scripture Therefore all necessarie points are not plainly set down in Scripture Your answer will not here help you out you say Whatsoever is necessarily inferred from Scripture is binding in the Vertue of the Principle But you cannot shew that this precept given to the Parents is necessarily inferred out of Scripture Not out of the Institution of our Saviour for he also instituted the Eucharist not necessarie for Infants not out of the substitution to Circumcision for so it should not be necessarie to women no nor to any but those of the Iewish Nation to whom onely Circumcision was given as necessarie Is this a necessarie Consequence Circumcision was necessarie for the male children Ergo Baptisme is necessarie for male and female You see it is not halfe true Neither is that a necessarie Consequence which is drawne from the baptising of whole families for first as we read whole families were baptized so we read that whole families believed So Iohn 4. verse 53. Himselfe believed and his whole family Will you hence evidently infer that the little Children under yeares of discretion also believed as you infer that they are to be baptized by a necessarie precept Again this illation is far from being evident for it is not evident that there be litle ones in every family alive and those also under the age of discretion In many families all the little ones that be alive are above seaven yeares old There be many families of people newly married who have not yet any Children There be many families of people who never had Children as those who are barren Others have lost all they had by death It is then no evident consequence He baptized the whole family therefore he baptized litle Infants I insist not upon the Authorities I alledged out of Saint Austin St Chrysost because I deale with one who little regards authoritie confessed to be the Fathers 62. Now Sir to conclude this long Chapter I will shew that I conclude this point and so I doe all the former just as you say I must conclude For you say to me you must prove that those points were and ought to be determined by the Church upon necessitie of Salvation This I prove by this argument This point and all the former are necessarie to be believed with an infallible assent But we cannot believe any point with an infallible assent unlesse it be determined by an infallible authoritie therefore we must find out an infallible authoritie which hath determined these points The authoritie of the Scripture as I have proved hath not determined these points We must therefore find out some other infallible authoritie upon whose determination we may be able to do that which to be saved we must do to wit upon which we may be able to believe these points with an infallible assent No such infallible Authoritie can be found on Earth if we deny the Authoritie of the Church to be infallible I conclude then that her Authoritie must needs be infallible The Fourth CHAPTER The Church is this Judge Her Authoritie Infallible NO better beginning can I give to this Chapter Of my 17th Number then the very last Number of the last Chapter which I must intreat my reader to note most carefully so to observe the forcible deduction by which I prove the necessitie of a judge different from Scripture who must be infallible for the reason there assigned and who can be no other then the Church This proofe alone might serve the turn yet I adde 2. First those words Matthew 12.19 spoken to Saint Peter vpon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it these words allow the Church a securitie from ever admitting any doctrin so pernitious that the gates of Hell may prevail against her And this promise made to the Church is that which mainly makes to my purpose Whether the church be built upon Saint Peter and his Successors or upon the faith of Saint Peter is not the thing I cheifly here aim at My aim is to find a Church built on a Rock so strong that no error shall ever overthrow it And so I have nothing to do with your long disputation about Saint Peter I am now secured the Church shall never be a Nest of Errors Idolatrous superstitious wickedly assuming the authoritie of an infallible tribunall without sufficient warrant All or any of these things would bring her to the gates of Hell they being all damnable impieties That what is said of this infallibility of the Church only concerns the Roman Church I will shew in the next Chapter Have patience until then or read that first You being to say nothing against me untill you begin to say sixthly That you have enough against me for saying the Church is secured from all damnable errors by this promise For this maketh you think my meaning to be that Christ doth not intend here to exempt the Church from all error but only damnable But Sir my meaning in specifying her exemption from damnable errour was only that time to take for granted that which most of yours use to grant and even thence to presse your further you grant the Church free from damnable errour whence I have at least thus much that no body shall be damned for following the guidance of the Church And I have also that the whole Church being thus by divine assistance secured from erring damnably is secured from ever being destroyed by any damnable error she is therefore alwayes to have such a visible existence as is necessarie to afford a guidance secured
from erring damnable by it Now by what Logick do you inferre that because the Church is secured from all damnable errour therefore according to my doctrine shee is not secured from other errours All you build upon this consequence falls to the ground Going on I find you by the way quarelling with one of the Cardinall vertues even Prudence her self which you intimate then only to have place when Religion is chosen by interest I pray do you thinke in earnest that men cannot proceed prudently in the choise of their Religion Then you conclude that all the force my former argument hath it hath from Scripture Is not my argument the better for this against you who professe to believe Scripture to be Gods undoubted word independently of the authority of the Church because it is clearly manifested to you to be so by its light as the Sun by his light Is it not a convincing argument which is strengthened with an authoritie acknowledged so firme Against a Heathen untill I had proved Scripture to him I would not use this argument 4. Presently I find you again stumbling at the sense in which I took the word damnable as if I should allow the following of the Church in other errours No Sir you cannot follow her in other errors because she cannot go before you in any errour not in any damnable errour as your own selves teach no nor in any other errour as in this very next argument is proved if you mark the force of it 5. The force then of my next Argument is this God commandeth us to obey the Church and hear her in obeying her and hearing her we follow Gods Command But no kind of errour little or great can be incurred by following Gods Command therefore we can be lead into no kind of errour by following the Church Again you your selves say it is impossible to be obliged to assent to an errour though it be not a damnable errour Wherefore if I can prove that we are obliged to follow the Church I shall prove also that shee cannot guide us into any kind of errour This I prove by that text Matthew 18. verse 18. If he will not hear the Church let him be unto thee as a publican or a Heathen Therefore meerly and purely for not hearing the Church a man is to be held and truely according to Gods judgment deserving to be held a publican or Heathen but all we are obliged not to deserve to be held by Gods judgement Publicans or heathens Therefore all are obliged to hear the Church being that meerly and purely for not hearing her they are to be held and deservingly held according to Gods judgment Publicans and Heathens as is also further insinuated in the next verse where it is said this sentence shall be ratified in Heaven Now if any man reply that we are to heare the Church so long as she swerveth not from Gods word my answer is that to swerve from Gods word is to erre but this text proveth she cannot erre Ergo it proveth that she cannot swerve from Gods word and indeed if she could the meerly not hearing her could not deserve that a man should deserve to be accounted according to Gods judgement a Publican or Heathen But you tell me this text is to be understood not of matters of faith or unbelief but of matters of trespasse between brother and brother and refractoriness in the person And that it respects excommunication by censure in which also it may erre Neither is a man bound to believe the censure is just unless it appears to be so This last assertion of yours is very extravagant doctrine for the unanimous opinion of learned men is That a man is bound to hold his superiours censure or command to be just unless the contrary appears evident See your own Doctors Chillingworth P. 308 N. 108. Hooker P. 310 311. N. 110. Laud P. 226. And indeed you bring all to this that when all comes to all you are the last judge to whose sentence finally all comes to be referred and not to the sentence of the Church for you reserve to your selfe the last judgement of her sentence to see whether it be just or no in your own private opinion Sir if the contrary be not evident the Church who is Superior is to be followed and obeyed If the contrary be evident it is impossible such a superior as the Church is assembled in a general Council should not mark that evidence without we will call that evident or not evident which is for our present turn to call evident or not evident That which is truly evident will of it selfe appear to be so at least to the most judicious upright and best instructed Prelates of the Church And this is to be said according to human Reason although they had no infallible promise of a more then humane assistance from the Holy Ghost Moreover Sir let us if you please not passe so farre as the Censure but let us make a stay in the mere consideration only of the cause for which the censure is given that the cause is not hearing the Church for this and meerly for this only cause according to the text this man is according to Gods judgement deservedly to be held as a Publican or Heathen and therefore if for this act of not hearing the Church the censure cometh to be after wards pronounced against him that censure will be made good in Heaven as the next verse clearly saith Wherefore it is impossible that this Censure should be unjust if he truly be guilty of not hearing the Church It is true that a man may by false information or some such way be judged to be guilty of not hearing the Church when really he is not guilty and so there may be an errour in the mistake of the fact and thus Clave errante in mater of fact the sentence will not be ratified in Heaven But this is nothing to the purpose for still he who is truly guilty of not hearing the Church is for that only fact and meerly for that cause to be held deservedly according to Gods judgment as a publican or Heathen And so the Church cannot errour in denouncing Excommunication against such a person And hence you see how truely miserable such a person is and how it must needs be damnable unto him not to heare the Church which not to hear maketh a man to be held as a Publican or Heathen most deservedly and according to Gods owne judgement To hold himself not to deserve this punishment is to hold against Scripture You highly wrong Saint Athanasius to say he heard not the Church See my 9. Number These my Premisses being made good it followeth clearly that no man is secure in conscience who will not obey the Church And hence again it followeth that this Church cannot erre at least damnably for else a Man might in Conscience be bound to follow a damnable errour No she cannot erre in an
errour not damnable because also it very true which you lately said that so men should be bound to assent unto an errour which is impossible Hence that common doctrine of Antiquity That it is not possible to have a just cause to separate from the Church And it cannot be said that any man separates himselfe not from the Church but her errours being she is secured from all errour as appeareth manifestly by our obligation to hear her you tell me that this text obliging to hear the Church is meant onely of trespasses betwixt Brother and Brother which trespasses are also to be told to every particular Church and to Severall Prelates and therefore this place say you maketh nothing for the authoritty of the Vniversall Church Sir I grant particular trespasses are to be referr'd ro particular Prelats and that the Church is not to be called to a general Counsel for every private mans trespasses singular private men are to be condemned by the particular Prelates of their particular Churches proceeding according to the known Decrees and Orders of the Universal Church If he clearly disobeyeth them thus proceeding he disobeyeth the Universall Church And for this act merely deserveth according to Gods own judgement to be accounted as a Publican and Heathen So he who disobeyeth the particular Judge judging according to the known Lawes of the Common-wealth disobeyes the Common-wealth And it is this not obeying the Church and the not hearing her which exaggerates the crime whence you see the not hearing the particular Prelates in so well ordered a Communitie as the Church is may come to be commonly the self same crime with the not hearing of the Church And because all such Prelates when the contrary is not apparently manifest are supposed to do their duty in giving sentence according to the known Decrees Orders and Canons of the Universal Church as we usually say those who disobey the Judges disobey the Commonwealth so generally speaking those who disobey the Prelates of the particular Church disobey the Universal Church commanding them to proceed according to her Decrees Definitions and Canons So that at last this disobedience is against Christ and God himself according to that which God said to Samuel Lib. 1. Cap. 8. They have not rejected thee but they have rejected me And Christ to his Disciples the first Prelates of the Church He that despiseth you despiseth â—â— And therefore Christ commanded the lawful Successours of Moses to be followed in what they delivered by publick authority although they were wicked in their private lives and many of them publickly did teach Errours though not by publick authoritie or authorized by any Definition of that Seat which private Errours Christ called the Leaven of the Pharisees bidding his Apostles take heed of it But concerning what that Seat did by publick Definition Christ was so far from bidding people to take heed of it that he in as general terms as men speak when they would speak without any exception Said to the whole promiscuous multitude and also to his disciples upon the Chair of Moses have setten the Scribes Pharieses All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and doe Mark these most ample words All therefore whatsoever O! will you say what if they bid us do against the Scriptures Why this very saying of Christ sheweth they were secured from ever doing against the Scripture when they proceeded by way of defining with Publick authority If you object that they condemned our Saviour by publike authority you have your Answer Number 9. Say I we must hear the Church and because we must Universally hear her for she doubtless hath to the full as much reason to be heard as the old Iewish Church then had she must be confessed to have full assurance never to gainsay the Scripture And as the Synagogues Authortity was not limited so as to be obeyed and heard onely in point of trespasse betwixt Brother and Brother but was to be extended to All whatsoever they should order So you can not with out depressing the Authority of Christs Church who had a better Covenant established upon better promises Hebrews 8.6 hinder her power from being extended to All whatsoever she shall Order It must not therefore be confined only to trespasse betwixt Brother and Brother But we must of necessity for the reason now expressed argue thus That being she is to be heard even in Controversies concerning trespasses betwixt Brother and Brother much more is she to be heard in such trespasses as are committed by one Brother against all his Brothers and their dearest Mother the Church Then or never he is to be complained of And if this obstinacy in persevering in trespasses betwixt Brother and Brother deserveth that a Man should be held as a Publican and a Heathen he incomparably more deserveth to be held so who being commanded by the Church to desist from such pernicious opinions as ruine the Soules of his Brothers and tear asunder the bowells of his Mother still persists in his impious doctrine and in that most infectious and Soulmurthring crime of heresie the most heinous trespass against all our Brothers Either such a crime or no crime is to be told the Church Yea Saint Thomas calleth Schisme of which Heresie is alwaies guilty the highest sin against the whole Comunity of our brother hood Now this crime is to be told first to the particular Prelats as soon as it is perceivd to be begining to creep like a canker as the Scripture saith Heresie doth If by this judgement of particular Prelats this crime be clearely found to be indeed Heresie or a doctrine opposit to the known former definitions of the Church Universall they are to excommunicate him who is pertinacious in this soul-murthering Crime and this sentence is sure to be ratified in Heaven because he who hath opposed in Doctrine the known Definitions of the Church hath not heard nor obeyed her for which onely fact according to the clear sentence of Scripture he deservedly is to be accounted as a Publican or Heathen Now if the Crime be not clearly against the known doctrine of the Universal Church or not so evident against it but many hold the contrary the particular Prelates are bound to acquaint the head of the Church therewith This supreme Prelate of the Church is bound to use the fulness of his authoritie to supresse the arising Heresie He may forbid if he feareth danger in the doctrine that no such doctrine be published untill the Church shall think it fit And then all must doe as Saint Paul saith Hebr. 13. v. 27. Obey their Prelates Thus far the power of the supreme Prelates is extended by the consent of the whole Church He therefore that in this case obeyeth not is guilty of not bearing the Church which single crime maketh a man deservedly accounted as a Publican or Heathen Now though the Supreme head of the Church be as infallible as Saint Peter was yet if
he seeth this newly vented doctrine fit to be declared Heresie if it be so or to be imbraced if it be fitting and proposed to all Christendome then is the true time of calling a general Council and not to let the people contend by allegations of Scripture So though the Apostles were all infallible in their Doctrine yet they would not determine that grave question Acts 15. without calling a Council To consider of this word in which there was made a great disputation for this is necessarie for the fuller conviction of Hereticks fuller satisfaction of the weaker sort and further comfort of the whole Church to see truth to triumph upheld by the shoulders of all Christendom what proceeding could be more sweet or more orderly what exposition more agreable to this Text Tell the Church which denuntiation is to proceed by degrees from lower to higher Judges as is there expressed And Consequently when the sentence of the Highest tribunal of all is rejected then or never a man is deservedly to be accounted a Publican or a Heathen for not hearing the Church universall She therefore under so great a penalty being alwayes to be heard is secured from all kind of errour what soever in matters of faith belonging to her tribunall and so we must grant her to be infallible I have then already found out such a judge as I sought for a judge in matters of faith a living judge and infallible as you would have him wih an infallibility excluding all errour in what soever he proposeth or decreeth or all possibility of errour For if it were possible for this judge to impose an errour Christ could not possibly have declared it to be so heinous a crime not to hear the Church being that it might have been no crime at all He obliged all to obey and hear her she therefore cannot lead us into an error For as you truly say To be bound to assent to an errour is impossible Our infallibility of knowledge concerning this point is as great as it is of those points which are delivered by Scripture And therefore you may stand up to my Creed and that far more securely then stand out against such a Church the not hearing of which is so great a crime This Church is infallible and by manifest consequence only the Roman Church as I shall demonstrate the next Chapter Number 2. 7. Here by the way you tell me That If I would go the right way in this Dispute I should use another method for whereas I would argue the Church to be this Judge which we cannot safely disobey I should rather shew a priori That the Church is infallible in whatsoever it doth define and therefore ought to be obeyed in all things whatsoever But Sir when I come to use this very method I do foresee that it will so gald you that you will cry out to have this burthensome heavy argument cast upon the other shoulder from which you now would have it shifted to avoid the present trouble it causeth you you shall see if it fall not out as I said And that in this Chapter Numb 52. Of my 18th Number 8. As for St. Austins Authority I must here lay it aside as well as every where else for fear I should lose my labour even after I have proved what I should 9. You fly upon me for flying to that Text of Malachy 2.7 The Priests Lips shall keep Knowledge and they shall require the Law from his Mouth because he is the Angel of the Lord of Hosts Concerning the translation of which Text I truly charge your Bible of corruption for reading thus The Priests Lips should keep the Law and they should seek the Law at his Mouth Whereas all Originals speak clearly in the future tense as the Hebrew doth and also the Greek and Latin which two Languages want not a subjunctive Mood you ask Is this Text meant of the Priests of Rome I told you it was not And I did say expresly that I added this Text to take away from you all wondering at us for allowing that to be practised towards the Priests of the new Law whose authority doubtlesse excells those of the old Law which was practised towards the Priests of the old Law in which those who searched for the true knowledge of the Law were not directed to seek that knowledge by their own reading the Scriptures but they were to search it by having recourse to the Priests who never universally should fail at any time mark that I speak by universal consent to deliver false doctrine As for private Priests they be like Private translations of the word of God If what they deliver agree with the doctrine of the Church their doctrine is infallible not for their private delivery of it but for the authority of their Church as Translators are not to be believed for their authority but for their agreeing with the word of God But there is a vast difference in this that the agreeing of the Translation with the Original is wonderful hard to know especially when the Original it selfe cannot be known by those who admit of an infallible Church by any infallible knowledge The argument of the Priests with the Publick Doctrine of the Church is easily known because her doctrine is so carefully published amongst all understanding men And as it is easy to know that Homo doth truly signifie a man for though one ignorant or malitious Fellow should say it signified a beast yet the consent of all others would manifest that mans perversity If a question were proposed in a matter of doubt in which their opinions varied then men are to proceed as I just now declared Num. 9. And then when the cause should be decided by the High Priests he who would not not hear him was deservedly put to death Deutronomy 17. I know you told me in another place that the Jewish Church erred I did deny it why Did not they erre in condemning our Saviour Yes but then the Jewish Church erred not The true high Priest without whom there is no true Representative Church erred not Caiphas was not the true High Priest for another was lawfully declared to be so This other true High Priest was Christ who before his condemnation had sufficiently for a legall declaration proclaimed himself to be the true Messias the true Anointed of our Lord. This true high Priest erred not The true head of the Church not erring the Church cannot be said to erre The true head of the Church defined not with the Council of Ariminumt Saint Athanasius was bound to follow the Church defining which defined not in that Council for the Head of the Church not defining with the body the whole body or Church defined not Therefore I say again you erre when you say He should have been bound in Conscience by the censure of the Church to have been an Arrian The Church is the High Priest defining with a lawful general Council The High
Christian or any word of the new Scripture was writen The meaning of St. Paul is that an Heretick might if he would clearly see his private doctrine to be opposite to the known publick Doctrine of the Church which Church then shined with the glory of infinite Miracles stupendious conversions and most eminent Sanctity and was then formed most completely with all things necessary to infallible direction to the true faith Yea you will say she was then more completely furnished to that end then ever she was since that time 49. Now because your cheif exception against the Churches being our judge is that you hold her not infallible besides all the proofs I have already brought of her infallibility I shall now add divers more But in the first place I must a little more fully tell you what we understand by the name of the Church He who is a seeker of his Religion must first believe the Universal Church diffused to be furnished by God with true infallible meanes to direct us securely in all doubts of faith wherefore he most prudently judgeth himselfe bound to joyne himselfe to her in faith being convinced that she directed most securely in faith Being thus also a seeker resolved to ioyne to these true believers When he proceedeth further to take a particular account in whom this infallible meanes given to the Church Universal of directing all securely in matters of faith doth consist he will readily find that it doth not consist in all the members of the Universal Church for Children and women be of the Church and yet their Vote in no mans opinion is required to the deciding any controversie in faith the Laiety also hath no decisive Voice in those points nor every inferiour Clergy man but only such as are Prelates Overseers and Governors over the rest So that in fine this infallible direction is Unanimously affirmed by us all to be undoubtedly settled upon the authority of the prime Pastors Prelats of the Church assembled together in a lawfull generall Councell with their cheife Pastor and Head the Bishop of Rome Against a thing so easily to be understood you cry out aloud of strange intricatenesse and inextricable proceedings And yet I think most clowns of this Land did easily understand what was meant by a decree of the Kingdome to the which the consent of King and Kingdome assembled in Parliament as the custome was for many years together was required Now what more difficulty is there to know what we meane by a decree or Definition of the Church The kingdome representative was the king and the Parliament The Church representative is the cheife Bishop with the full Assembly of the other Bishops in a lawful Council the Decrees and definitions of which assembly be the decrees and definition of the Church In a thing so cleare you labour your uttermost to raise a thick mist 50. First you obiect who can be certain by a divine faith of the lawfulnes and Regularity of a Pope in his first creation I answer that when I speake of a Pope defining in a lawfull Councel as I do now speak I speak of such a Pope to whom the Church submitted in calling the Councel and whom the Church admitteth as her lawful head to preside in the Councel These very acts supply all defects in his election and do make it evidently credible that he is the true head who thus admitted defined with the Councel as their acknowledged head Secondly you ask when there was Pope against Pope who of the people could distinguish the right Pope I answer that he shall ever be esteemed the right Pope to whom the Prelates of the Church shall unanimously obey when he calleth them to meet in a general Councel and in this Councel to preside over them To to have two such Popes as these are at one time is impossible And this is the only time in which a Pope defineth with a lawful Councel What you say of Popes not defining in such a Councel is not our Case put me a Pope defining with a lawful Councel and then prove him fallible if you can Whether the Popes definitions out of a Councel be fallible or infallible maketh nothing to this purpose Only this is evident if they be infallible out of a Councel they be infallible in a Councel Thirdly you think that no Controversies can in our opinion be decided when there is a doubt who is true Pope And you ask who is then to call a Councel And when the Councel is called you think us to think that this Councel can define nothing without a Pope I doubt not Sir but you have found a clear answer to all this in Bellarm lib. 2. de Concilis Chap. 19. that although a Councel without a Pope cannot define any article of faith yet in time of schisme it can judge which is true Pope and provide the Church of a true Pastor if she had none who thus provided by the Councels authority may dissolve the Councel if he pleaseth or if he please to have them remaine assembled they remaine so now by his authority and can define as well as other Councels called by the Pope In that meeting in which the Pope was to be chosen or declared the undoubted Pope the Prelats of the Church might and ought to meet upon their own authority and assemble themselves Fourthly you ask how we can by divine faith come to be assured of the lawfulnes and generality of Councels for Councels have been called by Emperours not by Popes Sir your Church which never had nor shall have generall Councel is to seeke in all things belonging to them Our Church almost in every age since Constantine hath been visibly assembled in general Councels and by perpetual practice hath been sufficiently informed to deliver by the assistance of the Holy Ghost all that she hath received from her ancestors to be essential to a true Councel and to deliver this point infallibly To your obiection in order I answer first That it is out of Scripture evident that there is no divine institution by which either Emperours be assured to be still found in the world or that when they have that dignity they be by divine institution invested with a power to call Councels We seek for this divine Institution This we will not admit until it can be shewed in Scripture or Tradition the fact of calling sheweth not divine Institution Secondly as for the Prelates of the Church we can shew divine Institution Act. 20.28 Bishops placed by the Holy Ghost over all the flock to feed or govern the Church of God And 4. Epho Not lay Magistrates but only Ecclesiastical are said to be given us by Christ for the work of the Ministery for the edifying of the body of Christ that henceforth we may not be carried about with every wind of doctrine c. Thirdly The Emperour is not by divine Institution Lord of the Christian world No nor of any considerable part
of it Wherefore seeing that a motive power is no motive power any further then it can or ought to be able to motive the Emperiall power which cannot move further then it reigneth nor ought not to move further cannot consequently command any further then his territory at the uttermost The power of the cheife Pastor of the Universal Church is coextended to the Universal Church All Bishops of the Universal being to be moved must be moved by such a power as this is If Emperours called councils it was not by an Ecclesiastical calling such an one as the Pope called them by at the very selfe same time but the Emperours calling was only political proceeding from a temporal power subserving to the Ecclesiastical and not able to force them by censure in case of refusing to come as the Ecclesiastical power could which power implored the Emperiall assistance to concurre with her only for the more effectual excution Perhaps somtimes Emperours might venture to call dependently of the ratification of the supreme Pastor which they presumed would be assuredly obtained in so just necessities as there seemed to presse for a speedy meeting If Emperors were present in Councels it was only by their presence and good countenance to honor encourage and further the proceedings of the Councel and to passe their Vote in points of beliefe You add something else now but it comes again presently Fifthly you object How shall we know that every one of the Councel hath a free election to it and a free decisive Vote in it I answer the freedome of every mans calling is made evidently credible by the publick sūmons sent through the whole Christian world obeyed by the same without any pertinatious opposition and the answerable publick apperance from all parts of the world every one exhibiting the publickely authenticated testimony of his election and confirmation If any man be excluded he may without he will renounce his right be heard in the Councel which being a publick hearing the matter cannot but be known Many yet never were nor can be thus injured without making their injury notorious by publik protestations and such lik remedies alwayes used against unjust exclusion or hinderance of liberty in Voting If the Councel be known notoriously to use such procedings we are not to acknowledg it for a lawfull Councel Again as private mens proceedings are not to be judgeed bad unless they can be proved to be so much lesse ought the proceedings of the Church representative to be judged bad without sufficient proof of the contrary And when such evident and notorious ill proceedings are not apparent nothing can be solidly objected against the lawfulness of the Councel And therefore it being to be admitted as a lawfull Councel it belongeth to the Holy Ghost to provide that their difinitions be not prejudiciall to the Church put under his protection and direction You only look what the inward nature of humane malice might act but you should also look to the extrinsical over-ruling providence promised by God against humane malice and weakness This is that which maketh all these factions and bandings and domineering self interest never to be effectually destructive of that secure direction promised by God to his Church Though hell gates should be set wide open they should not prevaile against her Sixthly you ask how shall ignorant people be divinely perswaded that the Councel is general I answer the publick Summons to the Councel sent through the Christian world The Publick appearance of Prelats made upon these summons from all parts of the world Their publick sitting publick subscribing publick divulging their decrees and definitions acknowledged truly to be theirs by all present denied by no man to be theirs with the least shew of probability no more then such an Act is denied to be the Act of such a Parliament All these motives I say maketh it evidently credible to the ignorant and to the learned that this is the true definition of the Church Now this being evidently credible to be her definition and I believing by divine faith all her definitions to be true I also believe this definition amongst the rest to be true It is a great signe you are ill furnished with strong arguments when you would perswade us that in things so easy to be known there be such insuperable difficulties The Councel of Trents definitions concerning faith were never opposed by France though some things ordained for practice seemed lesse sutable to the particular state of that Kingdome yet this difficulty was at last removed Seventhly you ask how many Bishops in the Trent Councel were furnished with a title to over-power the rest for the Popes ends I pray Sir tell me how many But tell me by credible witnesses such as are their own subscriptions who can assure me of this truth And when you have told me this give me leave to aske what one of them was as much as suspected to be of a faith different from the rest If they differed not in faith from the rest how then can the Pope be suspected to have acted against faith by making such Bishops Again doth the making of such Bishops make the holy Ghost unable to order things so in the councel that nothing shall happen destructive of the secure direction undertaken to be afforded for ever by him Saul shall sooner turn a Prophet and Caiphas shall prophecie not knowing what he doth before the spirit of truth sent to teach the Church all truth shall faile in his duty Eightly you ask how the Church was provided for when for so many yeares there was no Pope defining with a Councel This time you mean was the first three hundred years after Christ when for persecution no Council could be gathered All this time the known doctrine of the Apostles remained so fresh and so notorious by the Tradition of the Church diffused and there remained also so Universal a respect and obedience to the cheife Bishop of the Church notoriously known to be the upholder of true doctrine that the Church wanted not meanes to decide Controversies as farre as the necessity of those times required whence the Quartodecimani although they opposed nothing set down clearly in Scripture were Iudged Heretikes for opposing the doctrine of the first Church made evidently known by fresh Tradition Now as the Church could want Councils for so many years so it could want Councils for the short space of schism For the necessity of new declarations it not so frequent at least in any high degree of necessity calling for instant remedy and a reme-of this nature only Scripture alone you say will remedy this necessity We besides scripture have alwayes at hand the many definitions of former Councils and the known Traditions of the Church which alone served Gods Church in those two thousand yeares before Scripture and for two thousand yeares more served the faithful amongst the Gentiles who had not the Scriptures which remained almost solely and alone
of several particular councils Hence the councils of Seleucum Tirus AriminuÌ„ Millan Smyrna came to unfortunate conclusions rather encreasing then lessening the former evils Neither were the times so altered that there appeared any great likelyhood that in those parts any better conclusion could be expected of that council to which he was called when he writ that Epistle So also Saint Basil his bosom friend writing at that time to Saint Athanasius Ep. 52. said He thought it impossible for a General Council to be assembled in those times Clear then it is that Saint Gregory spoke only of such councils as had lately been held and could be held in those daies in which the Arrians would be sure to crosse all that might be good and to make those particular meetings patronize their cause What you further speak of a private Bishop of Bitonto telling the Fathers of the council of Trent to their face of their falling with one consent from Religion to superstition from Faith unto infidelity from Christ unto Antichrist from God to Epicurus is a thing I never yet did read in any credible Historian And I dare say never any credible Historian from Christs time until that time ever could find such a saucy speech to relate in History used as yet by any modest or immodest Catholicke to the face of a Councel And can you put on a forehead to countenance such a speech not having any one example from Christs time to this day as I said So it is The Catholikes and onely the Roman Catholikes have been the men who were still imployed in upholding the authoritie of councils of Fathers and you cannot I say it again and again find an example from Christs time unto this age of any who were not known Hereticks who were carping at the authority of councils or Fathers You spoke full enough before of the Fathers I think you have not wanted much of doing your worst against councels although you said in another place In what do we oppose Councels and you would seem to acknowledge them the highest Tribunal on earth though so much be said for their vilification And when you have cried down the authority of Fathers patronized the reprochful language of this private Man against a whole council of what authority do you think this one private mans saying could be 21. Hence you see how little all this serveth for an answer of what yet is to be answered in the 21 Number of my former paper specially when I shall have added the other proofs which I have of the assistance of the Holy Ghost promised to his Church Of this by and by Now you invite me to re-examin the Determinations of the council of Trent It appeareth by what I said Chap. 2. Num. 4.5.6.7 That it is fine doctrine that determinations of councils should be examined by such as I and you are Have we such assistance of the Holy Ghost as councils have Have we halfe the authority or any thing like one quarter of even the wit and learning which they have Sir Let us two set down and examine how true this is which I shall now say Either the deteâ—minations of General Councils be such as are evidently against clear Scripture or the Texts which we think they gain-say be not evident to the contrary which if they be not it would be a wonderful imprudence in me and you to think we should surer hit right upon the meaning of obscure places in Scripture then the whole council hath done But now if the places alledgeable against the councils be evidently cleare Texts do you think to perswade any pious and prudent Man that so very many and many of them so very eminent for piety and for prudence as are known to have subscribed to so many General Councils not to have been able to see that which hath been evidently set down before all their Eyes in clear Scripture God give us Humility God give us charity God have mercy upon us in the bitter day of his Iudgment if we passe so bitter a Iudgment against the whole Church representative And yet if you passe not this bitter Iudgment you will never passe this objection without being posed 22. Good Sir what mean you here to bid me say no more of this point concerning the Holy Ghost giving to his Church an assistance reaching to infallibility but you would have me now measure the infallibility of our councils or Churches by their determinations and to see how they agree with Scripture Let us not say you see your opinions by infallibility but your infallibility by your determinations set forth by your Church Remember Sir what you find in the 7 Number of this chapter where you undertake to instruct me in the right way of disputing according to which I should not stand shewing the Churches determinations to be such as should be obeyed but I should shew à priori as they say that she is infallible and that therefore her definitions are to be admitted Now when I come to do what you would have me to do you cry out say no more of this point but go now the other way cast the weight of this argument upon the other shoulder It galleth me upon this Sir by your good leave I must dwell upon this argument yet a great while The more it presseth the better it is 23. This I will do by passing to my 22. Number Of my 22th Number where first you stumble and then tread upon Luther Let him ly where you will He is no better then his Fathers I step over him and so prove this infallibility of the Church I cite Saint Paul Tim. 3.15 calling the Church of the living God the pillar and ground of Faith May not all securely in their faith rely upon the pillar of Truth May they not most groundedly ground themselves upon the ground of Truth it self You answer There is a double pillar and a double ground one principal the Scripture the other less principal and subordinate the Church But this double dealing in distinguishing helpeth you not The Church must still be a true pillar and a true ground of Truth The people believed God and Moses saith the Scripture Moses was infinitely under God yet this hindred not his being truly such a pillar of Truth as was to be relied upon securely in matters of Faith I apply all to Moses in respect of God what you apply to the Scripture in respect of the Church And yet after all this as they might rely upon Moses as a pillar of Truth so we upon the Church All true believers for two thousand years before the writing of Scripture had no other ground to stand upon but this Church the ground of Truth And therefore a ground sure enough and yet not sure enough if fallible Yea the true believers to whom Saint Paul did write these words The Church is the pillar and ground of Truth had not the whole Canon of the Scripture
the immediate assistance of the holy Ghost which they had undoubtedly And here as if you had proved some thing you have a fling at the Council of Trent for sitting so long a thing as little derogatory to that Councils infallibility as that much disputing and making several speeches was derogatory to the infallibility of the council of the Apostles in which onely one short Decree was made Look on the many Canons and Decrees for Reformation in matters subject to great Disputes Oppositions of secular power which crossed not the Apostles first Council Look on the multitude of Heresies condemned after a full hearing of all that could be said by all parties and it must needs be rather a point of satisfaction to all then a scandal unto any to see so mature consideration used But both a slow and a hastie and a mean delivery of any ones condemnation will be distasteful to the condemned person 27. As for the Authoritie of St. Athanasius calling the definition of the council of Nice by which the Consubstantiality of God the Son with his Father The Word of God it sheweth clearly that this prime Doctor held that God delivered his Word unto us by the council Your Answer is that the councils Definition did not bind with Relation to the Authority of the Council but by the authothority of Scripture Ministerially proposed by the council Sir I have already shewed Chap. 2. Numb 4. that the clearest Text which the council had to cite even that text I and my Father are one can be so expounded by an Arrian that it doth no more then probably declare the consubstaÌ„tiality But as you say here If the text be but probable we caÌ„not froÌ„ thence urge this probable sense of it as an object of faith But S. Athanasius urgeth CoÌ„substantialitie after the Nicene council as Gods VVord and an Object of Faith which he cannot doe with a Relation to a Text onely probable in Scripture Therefore he doth it with Relation to the infallibility of the councils Authority which council if it had onely Authority to propose like a Minister such and such Texts as may be severally taken and consequently mistaken by an Interpreter who is onely fallible could not be said in its Interpretations to propose the undoubted Word of God And though Saint Athanasius held that as truth before the council in order to himself who was convinced that his interpretation was conformable to the ancient Doctrine of the Church yet in order to those who were not before the council convinced by that Verily he could nor boldly denounce this as an infallible meaning of Gods Word obliging all O! This Declaration of Gods Word by the council he boldly said The Word of God by the Council of Nice remained for ever After this you come in again with the council of Ariminum contending that council as well to be believed for it self as the council of Nice And you think if more exceptions could have been made against the authority of the council of Ariminum Saint Austin against his Arrian adversary might easily have Prevailed by insisting onely upon the authority of the council of Nice which he waveth and goeth to arguments out of Scripture Sir A man of reading cannot but know that the council of Ariminum is never by the Fathers no nor by your Church of England numbred among the first foure councils which foure by addition of this council had it been a lawful council should have been made Five And you might as well think that I might prevail against you by only citing the council of Trent which I never cited yet but stood wholly on other arguments For I know as we in vain dispute with Heathens out of Scripture or out of Saint Matthewes Gospel against Manichâ—ans or out of the Machabees against you so Saint Aâ—stâ—â— in vain had insisted upon the Nicene Council against one who scoffed at it as you do at that of Trent He being well furnished with other arguments out of Scriptures admitted by him intended by them onely at that time to overthrow him and not to meddle with a long contention fit to fill a book alone about the validity of the council of Nice and invalidity of that of Ariminum as we two for the like reason doe not stand onely contesting about the authority of the council of Trent I am now for a long time to contest with you about the Scripture onely as Saint Aâ—stin did with him 28. But before I enter further upon this contestation about this controversie of the Infallibility of the Church I must put you in mind of your own doctrines which teacheth that all necessary controversies are clearly decided according to the truth by plain Scripture This controversie then being one of the most necessary must clearly according to your doctrine be decided for you against me by plain Scripture If then I can but shew that it is not thus clearly decided against me I clearly shew that I hold no errour in this point For all errour in such a necessary point as this is can be demonstrated to be against plain Scripture What I hold to wiâ—t that the Church is Infallible cannot be demonstrated by plain Scripture to be so Therefore what I hold is no error Now I must prove that what I hold of the infallibility of the Church cannot by clear Scripture be demonstrated to be an error This I prove thus The Scripture is not so clear against this as it is for this Therefore this cannot by clear Scripture be demonstrated to be an error My first proposition must be shewed by citing as clear texts for what I hold of this point as you can bring against it Well then for this point I have alledged in the beginning of this chapter the text promising That the gates of Hell shall not prevail against this Church and that text which tels us we must hear the Church under pain of being by Gods judgement accounted as Publicans and Heathens and that the Church is the Pillar and ground of truth 29. In my 23. Numb of my former Treatise I adde a fourth Text Behold I am with you all daiâ—s Of my 23th Number even to the consummation of the world Out of this such like promises made to the Apostles we prove their infallibility in teaching in writing c. But these words are to be verified unto the consummation of the world therefore they must not only contain a promise made of being with the Apostles who died a thousand and 6 hundred yeares ago but of being with the Prelats of the Church their successors who shall be to the consummation of the world Your answer to this Text shall be rendred in your own words that you may not complain of foul play Your words were Although the promise be extendible to the end of the world yet it is not necessary to understand it so as that there shall alwayes be equality of assistance to the times of the Apostles
to their successours the visible Teachers and Guides of the Church which were to guide people into all Truth for ever must needs have been verified all this last thousand years before your Reformation All this time all the visible Guides or Prelates of the Church were led and did lead into opinions contrary to the Tenets of your Church But all this time the spirit of Truth did abide with them guiding them into all Truth Therefore the opinions contrary to your Tenets were true and not errors If he should be with your Prelats beginning this last age to hold contrary to the Prelats of the last thousand years he should be with those who teach contradictions in points of belief opposite to the former belief Behold a clear reason why I appropriate this promise to our Bishops and Church and not to yours the Holy Ghost could not teach those guides of the Church forever who for a vast long time of many ages were not in the World Shew me a succession in all Ages of the guides or lawful Pastors of any Church houlding your Texts in points differing from ours and then I must labour to find a reason why I say the Holy Ghost ever since Christs time guided the lawful Pastors of our Church into all truth rather then the lawful Pastors of your Church which Pastors had no being in the Church or world and consequently no capacity to be guided into all truth 31 A Sixth Text to prove this assistance to be extended to infallibility is 4 Ephes whence appeareth that the end and intention of Christ in giving us who were visible in all ages Doctors and Pastors for all ages was such an end and such an intention as could not be compassed by such Doctors and Pastors as might lead us into circumvention of errour even then when they where assembled together to deliver the truth from their highest tribunal in a General Council How pittifully would the Saints be consummated by such Doctors How pittifully would the work of the Ministry be performed how pittifully would the Body of Christ be edified by such Doctors and Pastors Lastly how impossible would it be for us by the having of such doctors and Pastors that wee now provided of such guides be not children wavering and carried about with the wind of doctrine in the wickedness of men in craftiness in circumvention of error You see St. Paul affirms the Doctors and Pastors which are given unto us to be given for this end and consequently sufficiently assisted to the same that we may securely rest in their doctrine which we may not do in any erroneous doctrine be the errour little or great For it were a ridiculous thing to say we were to rest circumvented in error least we should fall into circumvention of error The assistance therefore is such as preserves from all error and such an assistance was proportionable to Gods intention of Securing us from having reason to waver or to be changing and changing so to cure some curable errors with which we feared to be circumvented whereas by the unanimous doctrine of these Doctors and Pastors God intended to preserve us sufficiently from ever falling into circumvention of errour 32. A seventh Text to prove the assistance of the Holy Ghost given to the Church to be extended to infallibility is taken from Esay chap. 56. verse 20. and 21. where God speaketh of the Church of Christ to which after his coming many of the Jewes were to unite themselves according to the interpretation of Saint Paul 18. Romans verse 26. Thus God by Esay The redeemer shall come to Sion and unto them who by uniting themselves to Christs Church shall turne from transgression in Jacob saith the Lord. Note here that the words which our Lord is going to say are spoken to the visible Church to wit that Church to which rhe Jewes did unite themselves being baptized in it instructed in it governed by it c. Now our Lord to this Church visibly Baptizing instructing governing c. saith As for me this is my Covenant with them saith the Lord My spirit that is upon thee and my words free from errour in all points great and little which I have put in thy mouth that mouth by which thou visibly dost teach all Nations shall not depart out of this thy mouth Nor out of the mouth of thy seed Nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed saith the Lord from henceforth and for ever Behold here the Spirit of Truth entailed upon the Church for all Ages never departing from her mouth Nor the mouth of her seeds seed which not departing from the mouth by which visibly she teacheth instructeth and governeth sheweth this Spirit entayled upon the Church as Visible and not as Invisible as you would have it And this not departing of his Spirit from her Mouth is a no lesse cleare then eloquent expression of her infallibility in her doctrine for Gods Spirit or Word is not in a Mouth teaching error Agaâ—n a promise of not departing from her mouth from thenceforth and for ever maketh it evident that this last thousand yeares there was some visible Church whose Prelates and Pastors did shew their Heads and open their Mouthes in teaching truth And yet what was visibly taught all this while was in all points debated between you and us opposit to you By the way note how unjustly you not long since taxed those of coming neer blasphemy who said that God did speak to us and teach us by his Church What mean these words My Words shall not depart out of thy Mouth Nor out of the Mouth of thy seed nor of thy seeds seed 33 Hence for an Eight Text I may well alledge what this Prophet infers from hence in the Next Chapter where he triumpheth in the Church thus teaching all Nations and there he addeth For the nation and Kingdom that shall not serve thee shall perish verse 12. Because if this Church should ever at any time fall to teach error Nations should do well and should further their salvation by forsaking her erring as the Protestants say they did And note how these words clearly shew that the Scripture speaketh of the Church visible which Nations and Kingdomes may find out and serve and must perish like publicans and Heathens if they doe not serve and obey she is therefore secured from error Hence verse 20. Thy sun shall no more goe down Neither shall the Moon withdraw it selfe For the Lord shall be thine everlasting light and the daies of thy Mourning shall be ended And in the next chapter to the Sons of this Church he promiseth That everlasting Joy shall be unto them verse 7. And in the next chapter last verse Thou shalt be called sought out a City not forsaken Had this Church been forsaken and left in such errors as are imputed to the Roman Church Christ had not been an Everlasting light to here whom he had left in such darknes for a thousand yeares
25th and 26th Number And so together with them I must let passe even that maine and convincing place of St. Austin this supposed I have ended all which belongeth to this Chapter The fifth Chapter The Church which is our Judge and Infallible is the Roman Church ALL that I am to prove here is Of my 27th Numb that upon Supposition that it is now made good that the Church is our judge in all Controversies and also that it is made good that she is infallible that all this can be verified of no other Church then the Roman Whence it followeth that whosoever will say any thing against that which I did undertake to prove in this part of my discourse must argue against me not by denying some Church to be judge of Controversies and infallible but admitting that for truth he must prove that I without reason claim this right of judicature and this infallibility for the Roman Church and onely for the Roman still understanding by the Roman Church all Churches which submit themselves to the Bishop of Rome as to their supreme Pastor 2 That then which remaineth here to be proved I did prove and still do prove thus the Protestant Church and all other Churches different from the Roman do judge themselves acknowledge themselves declare and professe themselves to be fallible and that according to infallible Scripture If then any of these Churches be infallible in what they judge and declare for truth grounded in Scripture they are infallible in this their judging and delaring themselves to be fallible Therefore infallibly they are fallible Therefore upon supposition that it hath been formerly proved that some Church is judge of Controversies and Infallible and it being by the former argument demonstratively proved that neither the Protestant Church nor any Church different from the Roman can be judge of Controversies and infallible it evidently followes that only the Roman Church is this judge and is infallible as she teacheth her selfe to be Here you exclaim at my abusing others by ratiocinations which notwithstanding I confidently say you could not nor cannot solve Therefore prehaps you are pleased to wonder and then gibe at my argument as if I only argued thus The Roman Church claimeth infallibility therefore by claiming of it she hath right to it This argument you may freely scoff at it is nothing like mine And yet in undoing this fond argument you only busie your selfe and say nothing to that which I pressed and still presse that the Church which is apointed by God for infallible judge of Controversies cannot possible be any of those Churches which teach themselves not to be this infallible judge It had bin very easie to have understood this right and not to make me say that only laying claim to infallibility is a sufficient proof of infallibility It is a very different thing to say He that must be a Minister must be a Man and not a Woman and to say such an one must needs be a Minister because he is a man and not a Woman So it is one thing to say the Church which is the infallible judge must be a Church judging and teaching her selfe to be infallible and cannot be a Church which judgeth and teaches her selfe fallible And another thing to say that that Church is infallibly judge which teacheth her selfe to be so This I said not but I said that Church that must be infallible must not want this condition and therefore no Church teaching her selfe even according to Scripture to be fallible can truly be this infallible judge Against my argument truly related you have not one word without you think you have answered me by saying that no Church of Christ is infallible and therefore not the Roman But Sir did not you alwayes hitherto still importunely call upon me to prove that even upon supposition that the Church was our judge and Infallible that these great prerogatives belonged to the Church of Rome You bid me still prove this even standing upon the supposition that some Church was judge and infallible Is it then any thing like a Scholar like answer to return no other answer to my argument but by now saying the supposition is not true the truth of which though allowed you contended to be nothing to my purpose If you will grant me that if any Church be judge of Controversies and infallible this is our Church I have done Neither intend I any thing else in this chapter 3 You bring an argument to prove our Church fallible because either it erred in admitting or in rejecting the Millenary opinion before admitted Sir I call upon you to prove that ever our infallible Judge that is the supreme Pastor of the Church defining with the Church assembled in a Council did admit of the Millinary opinion If this be not done you prove not our Iudge to be fallible and this I am sure can never be proved Yea it cannot be proved that the Church diffused or Universal did at any one age unanimously admit of this doctrine for a point of faith For when this opinion began to get much ground divers of the Fathers did oppose it Even S. Justin Dialogo cum Triphone circa medium whom yours use so commonly to alledge for this opinion in plain words telleth you Multos qui purae piaeque sunt Christianorum sententia hoc non agnoscere That many note the word many who are of a pure and pious Christian opinion do not acknowledge this And your own learned Doctor Ha in bis view of c. Page 87. 88 89. doth prove the weaknes of that place in St. Iustin not to conclude any thing against Catholike Tradition Nicephorus will tell you L. 3. C. 21. that Papias Bishop of Hierapolis was the first author of this opinion The traditions of the Church have no first authors but the Apostles Of my 28th Number Wherefore by all you have hitherto said my Argument remaineth unanswered and is really unanswerable the supposition being admitted upon which it is spoken For tell me whether any Church which teacheth her self to be fallible can be truely infallible If any such Church can be infallible and all Churches be such but the Roman then Christ can have no Church upon Earth to be our infallible Judge but the Roman Wherefore no tollerable Answer being yet given to this argument I will be as good as my word when I said in this Number That this being a demonstration I should hold my self bound to say no more until this argument were answered Here then I end yet when you shall have solved this argument I shal be ready to make good my promise concerning what I said I could and would shew of the Roman Church to soon as I should see this argument answered Petrae durities nulli magis quà m ferienti notae FINIS An Answer to your last Paper TItulus Libri saepe legendus est as the Rule is the Title of a Book is often to be read
to you is not bound to so much Fourthly whereas you say They so will make him wise unto salvation and to continue still assured of the doctrine of the Church and never to contradict that Do not you see that you add to Paul in the Predicate for S. Paul saies they are able to make him wise unto salvation and you say so they are able to make him wise to salvation and to continue still assured of the Doctrine of the Church and not to contradict the Church who is it that wrests Scripture now Do not you draw it to your own use no you will say it is all one to make us wise unto salvation and to make us continue still assured of the Doctrine of the Church and not to contradict the Church Is it then all who have not contradicted the Church are saved none that have contradicted the Church are saved The former you will not say the later you cannot prove Pope Vigilius contradicted the Church in the 5. Gen. Council about the three Chapters was he damned Fifthly you say the Scriptures so understood would make him wise unto salvation and to continue in the doctrine of the Church How do you understand it copulatively or disjunctively Copulatively that the Scriptures and the orall traditions would make him wise unto salvation and to continue in the doctrine of the Church or disjunctively that the Scriptures would make him wise unto salvation and the traditions to continue in the doctrine of the Church If disjunctively then we may be wise unto salvation and yet not continue in the doctrine of the Church to wit by the Scriptures If we cannot have salvation without continuing in the Church then prove your Church to be as infalible to us as the Doctors of the Church were to Timothy until that time you will be thought to beg the question So to end this answer we note here that you take special care of the Church It seems by your stickling about the Church that what S. Austin said in his de Civitate Dei concerning Rome-Heathen is also true by you of Rome-Christian Et major cura unius Romae quam totius Coeli And there is more care had of one Rome than all Heaven You go on Thirdly you say You confess that when we are by the Church assured that the Scripture is the Word of God we may ground our faith in it for those things which are plainly delivered You say yes but I also say that all things necessary to salvation are not plainly delivered in Scripture So then it seems you come downe from your former universality that whatsoever we do believe we must believe upon the proposals of the Church as the formal cause and motive thereof and why then do you not allow the people the use of the Bible as in order to those things which are plainly delivered So that by this concession you open the way to contradict your own practice But you would shut it again by saying that all things necessary to salvation are not plainly delivered in it Be sure you take heed of this that you do not grant this for why then should all fly to the Church for infalible directions in way of supply well Are they not delivered or not plainly which speak your mind If not delivered then surely not plainly for of that which is not there are no affections as the Rule is but they may be delivered and yet not plainly Come out of the clouds and do not make a noise but lighten us If not delivered think upon the Argument you know well If many things not necessary are plainly delivered in Scripture then much rather all things necessary If delivered and not plainly then plainly not delivered for if they be delivered they are delivered for our use as a Rule of faith and action and how are they a Rule if they be not sufficiently plain for then we must have another Rule for the understanding of this Rule And also think upon the former Argument which proceeds upon your own distinction that the Scriptures were able to make Timothy wise unto salvation but not every one If Timothy then much more others because more is required as you say to a Minister in point of belief than to others But you would prove what you say S. Peter saith that many to their perdition did misunderstand some hard places of S. Paul so that mis-interpretation of hard places may be the cause of perdition Ans First you will excuse us if we note that the danger they were in was not by misunderstanding but by wresting of those places You know the Greek is as before was said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the Syriack renders it perverting depraving and so also your Translation of Rhemes depraving This is not so much an intellectual error as a moral fault and the danger is by the later Secondly Here 's but some things hard to be understood in S. Paul's Epistles not all not many and from hence you cannot argue that all things therefore in S. Paul's Epistles and much lesse in the whole Scripture are hard to be understood If you syllogize so you proceed a particulari a dicto secundum quid Thirdly the perverting and depraving doth more immediately depend upon their being unstable than ignorant Therefore cannot you impute that to simple ignorance which at least partly belongs to another cause Fourthly how prove you that those things which were hard to be understood were of those things which are necessary to salvation If you say so it lies upon you to prove it if they were not such then this text is not pertinent Fifthly it is to their own destruction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So then it seems hereby they had the liberty to read those Epistles and why should you therefore hinder the people from the use of Scripture since they run the danger of their own destruction by wresting them And peruse your own Estius upon the place who doth ingenuously note that it is not said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as referring to the Epistle as some copies he said would have it but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 referring to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which respects the time of Christs coming although afterwards Estius would extend them to the point of justification by faith Fourthly you object heresie and lewd life to some in whom you say we invested infallibility If I should grant all what prove you from hence but that there be other ways to heresie and bad life besides giving all scope to interpret the Scriptures as we judge fit c. unto but to prevent Ans But do you remember what occasion I had to object this to you by way of recrimination you charged us by the judgement of your learned Divines that the free use of the Scripture would be it upon which the peoples manners would grow worse and worse And to this I said how comes it then to passe that some in whom you vested
again this obedience he speaks of would be rational obedience and therefore not blind For to follow such a Guide which is always ruled by Christ and therefore never swerves from his word if this can be made good to me that any Church doth and cannot do other is very rationall and not blind obedience If the saying and definition of the Church be assured by Christ and his word to be according to Christ and his word it is necessary to be obedient to it as to what I finde in Scripure though I do not comprehend the reason of it as the Scripture doth bind to faith without dispute so would the Church were I assured by the Scripture that the Church could not swerve from it But here are two things wanting one is of a proof that the Church hath not swerved And a second that it cannot swerve from the word of God For my faith must build it self immediately not upon the former because the power of swerving is not sufficiently secured by the negative but it must be built upon the impossibilitie and this should be demonstrated And still I must mind you that I speake of the Vniversall Church convented in a Generall Councell confirmed by the Supreme Pastor Ans And I still say that the Universall Church so constituted is not free from the least danger of swerving from the word of God And this in grosse were enough untill it were made good by sound Argument Yet also particularly First he meanes the Universall Church representatively for otherwise all cannot come together but then let us have an account why there could not be admitted to the titles of the Trent Councell that which the â—rench so much urged namely representing the Universall Church If it did represent the Universal Church why might it not be said in the title If it did not how does he say the Vniversall Church convented in a General Council 2. A Supreme Pastor in your sense should be proved and not supposed For we acknowledge no Supreme Pastor but Christ which can give life or law to all the Church He the Pastor and Bishop of our souls 1 Pet. 2.25 He the chief Pastor 1 Pet. 5.4 And all Bishops under him do equally participate a Vicarial care of the Church But thirdly the Trent Council according to you was general and confirmed by the Supreme Pastor and Vigilius was the Tutilarie Saint of the valley of Trent and yet the Trent Councell swerved grossely from the word of God and particularly in the matter of half communion as in the twentie first session notwithstanding Christ his institution and the severall interpretations of the Doctors and Fathers acknowledged against them in the first chap. of that session and although from the begining of Christian Religion the use under both kinds was not unfrequent as is confessed in the second ch Fourthly if the Church so constituted cannot swerve from the word of God why did the Trent Councell feare to determine what is the nature of original sin which Viga urged them to upon good reasons And why did they not determine whether the blessed Virgin was exempted from original infection whereof the Franciscans so much urged the affirmative to be defined the Dominicans the negative And yet in saying non esse suae intentionis it was not of their intention to comprehend in this Decree wherein original sin is handled the blessed and immaculate Virgine they do interpretatively exempt her though St. Paul and all holy Doctâ—â—â— did not exempt her as the Dominicans urged and so they do in effect contradict their universal proposition wherein it is said Propagatione non imitatione transfusum omnibus at least it makes that definition uncertain as the German Protestants noted Therefore that which followes in his Paper doth not follow in reason This Church guiding by her infalible Doctrine is this way the Church diffusive guided now by this doctrine was promised this direct way Such a way we were promised a way so direct represented that fools cannot erre by it Ans These words might have been all spared for they are all as Ciphers till one thing be proved and that is the infalible Doctrine as a property inseparable to the Church If the Church goes this way to prove her selfe the way she is not the way because she goes out of the way or else Christ was out of the way and the Primitive Church was not the Church when for so many yeares it is confessed that there was no General Council and is not proved that there was a Pope in their sence as indeed there was none So then the Church universal is not the way universally so direct that fools cannot erre for in all times there was not the universall Church so represented nor the Decrees of the represented Church so confirmed because there was no Pope And therefore if yet the Church had another way then we have more reason to go that way than the way which leads to Rome and from Rome we know not whither but to darknesse and those that follow this way are not wiser by following it for they are not wise in following it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Hierocles said well Both these things are good to know that we do not know and to know what we do not know And surely if we should go their blinde way we should neither know what wise men know nor know neither that we are ignorant Therefore Catarinus and Marinarus took another way to assert certainty of Grace namely by Scripture as we have it in the History of the Trent Council wherein they shaked the Adversaries of the opinion and brought them to some moderation And this example of theirs in following the Scriptures might if we were doubtfull of our cause yet incourage us to give check to that which follows The Scripture as some may conceive for you dare not defend it is not this way Ans All conceive that it is the way but your Church Yea all your Church are not for this Church way Besides those named the Arch-Bishops of Collen Catarinus Marinarus how many even in the face of the Trent Councell have urged Scripture against all other Arguments The antient Fathers made the Scripture their way and rule and therefore their authorities are not answered to by my Antagonist for that they are unanswerable Therefore we dare and do defend it for it will defend us in the doing of it But this Campian bragged of our diffidence We return as he did who was to be put to death as Tacitus relates it when the Executioner bad him beare it bravely he replied Vtinam tu tam fortiter feries So I would my Adversary had as strongly opposed as we are in hope to answer But it were better for them to have either lesse confidence or to add more strength As Archidamus said to his son after an unsuccesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So let them give stronger Arguments or quit the cause Let us see his reason For
way as is known but this we shall have fuller occasion to speake of hereafter Secondly whereas he saies that I say by meer reading of Scripture c. he supposeth that which is not so For I do not deny the use of other meanes to further us towards our assent intrinsecall arguments from Scripture extrinsecall of the Church but that which privately we resolve our faith of Scripture to be the word of God in is the autopistie of Scripture which God by faith infused shews unto us And by Catarinus his reasoning in the Trent Council about subjective certitude of grace private faith is not inferior to the Catholick faith in point of certaintie but onely in universalitie Thirdly the Church according to my Adversary hath its power of binding to faith by a Generall Council with the Popes confirmation of the Decrees then let us know by what Council all the parts of Scripture were confirmed by a Generall Council with the Popes consent for the first six hundred years somewhat might be put in as towards the use of some parts of the Apocryphall books but it doth not appear that they were canonized as to faith nor any of the Canonicall books declared by them as quo ad nos authentick For they were wont to meddle with little but emergent questions whereas of those parts of Scripture which were generally received there was no question whether they were the word of God And being not received by the authoritie of a Council establishing them what ground have those who differ from us to receive them since they say the infallible Authoritie is in the Church Representative with the Popes confirmation He goes on And it must be a far surer discoverie than that by which we discover the Sun by his light for this discovery can onely ground a naturall certaintie the other must ground a supernaturall not certainty but infallibilitie Ans The supernaturall habit of faith hath it felf more to intelligence than to science Intelligence is known to be that naturall habit whereby the understanding is disposed to assent to the truth of principles when the terms of those principles are known And faith doth beare more proportion to this as being the supernaturall habit in regard of cause whereby we are disposed to believe supernaturall verities whereof the first is by our opinion that the Scripture is the word of God taking the Scripture materially Now as the principles naturall are seen through their own light by the naturall habit of intelligence so are the supernatural principles seen through their own light by the supernaturall habit of faith And as certainly as I see the Sun by its light with mine eye so certainly do I see the truth of naturall principles by the naturall habit of intelligence and as certainly as I see the veritie of naturall principles by intelligence so do I see supernaturall verities by the supernaturall habit of faith yet not so evidently as I see the Sun by its light or naturall principles through their light But it seems by my Adversary that this will not serve for he urgeth not onely for a certainty but infallibilitie To this we answer first Take certaintie properly and I think there is no fundamentum in re for this distinction It may be because we are wont to use the term of infallibilitie to points of faith we think that whatsoever is certain is not infallible and it is true in regard of the manner or meane of certaintie so that whatsoever is certain is not infallible for so certaintie seems to be more generall but certainly whatsoever is to us certaine is also infallible as we take it in a generall sense But secondly if there be any degree of infallibilitie above certaintie we have it by this way of Divine faith infused by the Spirit of God because we are most sure of this principle that God cannot deceive nor be deceived therefore what we take upon his word we are most certain of and more than by our own discourse and reason for that is in the nature of it more imperfect Thirdly this is not so wisely considered to straine our faith to the highest peg of utmost infallibilitie as they determine the ground of it namely the Authoritie of the Church because the Authoritie of it as it is contradistinguished to the Spirit and word is but humane and as it is resolved into the word by the Spirit so it comes into a coincidence with us Fourthly whereas he sometimes upbraided us with an essentiall defect of faith because we take it not by their way of the Church it appeares yet that some of our Church have in case of martyrdome held the faith of Scripture and of points taken from thence as infallibly as they have held Scripture upon tenure of the Church And it seems ours did not hold the Scripture or the points upon the authoritie of the Church for they differed from the Ponteficians unto the death about the Church and about points of Doctrine which the Papist urged they denied notwithstanding they were Doctrines of their Church Now according to the Pontifician argument if they had received the Scripture by the Authoritie of the Church they must upon the same reason have received every Doctrine proposed by the Church And therefore it seems they had a faith of Scripture infallible without the Roman infallibilitie Secondly the Spirit of God speaking in the Church is to them the efficient of faith But the Spirit of God speaks also in the Scripture If not how do they prove that the Spirit of God speakes in the Church if it does then may we believe him at first word and immediately as to the Church As to what he saith secondly that he hath shewed in his last chap. second Num. that a review of the definitions of a Council untill they be resolved into the rule of Scripture doth open a wide gap to heresie I need say no more than what hath been said in answer thereunto His meer saying so doth not surely make it so nor is it probable for it doth not open a gap to heresie materiall because Scripture is the rule of truth nor yet to heresie formall because it may be done without opposition to the Councils For simple dissent doth not include formall opposition But yet further he saith And for your importance of the matter I will here further declare in an example which hereafter will stand me in much use Let us take an Arrian Cobler to this man This your Doctrine giveth the finall review of the Council of Nice Ans Yes I must interpose in the severall passages of his storie of the case it doth but how It doth not give a review by way of authoritie to others but he is to take his own libertie for his own satisfaction in point of faith Otherwise he believes he knows not what and so in proportion he comes under the censure of Christ upon the Samaritan woman in the 4. of St. John the 22. Ye
him the authority of the Church is onely binding in a Council with the Popes consent and no Generall Council can be found which did establish the points of Doctrine and Discipline wherein we differ before those Reformers did shew themselves for the Trent Councill which also is not a generall Council was after their beginning as is known and it was called upon their occasion Fifthly as for our Reformation in England from the incroachments of the Court of Rome it was first made by men of the Roman faith So then my Adversary gets nought by this exception And if the Romanists object to us reformation in Doctrine against the Church as in the time of King Edward the sixth we reply as before that we did not oppose the Church Catholick we left the Roman as they left the Catholick Church The whole is greater than the part and therefore had we reason to leave them Omne reducitur ad principium which is a rule of Aquinas We are in Doctrine as the Church was in the times of the Apostles Our defence is in Tertullian in his book of Praesor 35. ch Posterior nostra res non est imo omnibus prior est c. Our cause is not more moderne but more antient than all This shall be the Testimony of truth every where obtaining the superiority Ab Apostolis utique non damnatur imo defenditur it is not condemned by the Apostles nay it is defended This shall be the indication of propriety for those who do not condemne it who have condemned whatsoever is extraneous do shew it to be theirs and therefore do defend it The second inconvenience which he urgeth of my Principles to draw me to his is none Secondly seeing that a Generall Council as you in your first paper confesse is the highest Court on earth to hear and determine controversies c. What then unlesse all were bound to confirme and subscribe to erroneous definitions and all Preachers were silenced and obliged not to open their mouths against their errors This he attributes to me as if I said it or my opinion did inferre it whereas neither is true Nay nor did he find in my papers that erroneous definitions of a Generall Council though the highest Court are to be accepted peaceably reverently and without disturbance namely so as to accept them in assent as true for that would be impossible they may be accepted and reverently and without disturbance as to peace in not opposing though not as to faith in submission of Judgement and because they may thus be accepted will it therefore follow that we are therefore bound to confirme and subscribe to erroneous definitions By no meanes I do not remember that I used the terme of accepting and yet if I did it might be construed in sensu commodo so as not to disturb the peace of the Church and quietly to endure the censure But there is a vast difference betwixt not opposing and conforming or subscribing For not to oppose is negative to conforme or subscribe is a positive act Not to oppose respects the definition as a publick act to conforme or subscribe respects it as true which I cannot do supposing it erroneous Not to oppose regards the Judgement of the Church as authoritative to conforme or subscribe regards the judgement of the Church as at least not erring in the definition And as for that he saies that by my confession all Preachers are silenced and obliged not to open their mouths against these errors I answer first by distinguishing of the matter of the error If the matter of the error be not great as not destroying an article of faith it might be better quietly to tollerate it than publickly to speak against it if the matter of the error be repugnant to an article of faith then we distinguish of the manner of speaking against it and we say we may soberly refer it to another general Council if any be in view If not we may speak the truth positively without opposition to the authoritie of the Church so as to vilify or contemn it Yea further if the Council be free and general it being so qualified it is not like to erre in any decree repugnant to a main article of faith and therefore the question about speaking against it is in this case well taken away And yet further admitting and not granting that such a Council should erre in defining that which is contrary to an article of faith yet must my Adversary have supposed by his principles that the truth contrary to this error hath been established by some other general Council or else according to him the Church hath not sufficiently provided how to settle us infallibly in matters of faith since according to him we must resolve our faith ultimately in the Decrees of Generall Councils and then Council will contradict Council and therefore will not a Council be a ground of faith because one may contradict another and also we may speak by vertue of the former Council against the error of the latter And therefore the whole Church of God is not in a pitifull case by any thing of what I said in reverence to Councils without absolute obedience But to be sure the Church would be in a pitifull case if indeed we were bound to receive intuitively all definitions of Councils in whatsoever matters for then should we be bound to submit our conscience to a Council against our conscience since it is not yet proved infallible and this makes for the inward act a contradiction for the outward hypocrisie And surely if that which is most hard is most easily broken as was said by one in the Trent Council then that he urgeth is easily answered for there is to be sure lesse danger in not speaking against that which is false as he would have me say than in yielding to all as infallibly true as he would have me believe And therefore that which follows returnes with more force upon my Adversary mutatis mutandis A pitifull thing it would be if the Church were bound to believe all definitions of a Council which are not yet proved nor ever will be not to be fallible and consequently some that may be false which being by command from the highest authoritie upon earth preached by so many and not so much as to be consiwered by one would needs increase to a wonderfull height Would any wise Law-maker proceed thus if they could helpe it as well as Christ could by continuing in his word written that infallibilitie which my Adversary hath confessed or must that it always had and shall have As for the infallibility of the Church for two thousand yeares before Scripture was written and that which this Church of Christ had before all the whole canon of the new Testament was finished which was for the first forty yeares of the Church This we have spoken to sufficiently before And this doth at most inferre upon a supposition that the Church was for
thirdly I can charge the Council of Trent with contradictions to it self and the Trent Council was a generall Council in the opinion of my Adversary therefore that grace is voluntarily received is their opinion and that yet we cannot know whether we are in state of grace includes a contradiction as if we did not know our own will what it does This absurdity was urged by Catharinus in the Trent Council Again not to speak of some of them who had voted the Edition vulgar to be authentick and yet did except against the interpretation of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for sin pardoned in the History of the Council p. 207 there is a contradiction noted by the German Divines in the sixth session the seventh ch Where it is said of justice which every one receives according to his measure quam Spiritus Sanctus partitur singulis prout vult et secundum propriam cujusque dispositionem et cooperationem Which the Holy Ghost doth impart as he will and according to every ones disposition and cooperation If according to his will then not according to our disposition for then it is not as he will And so in the thirteenth session in the first ch it is said of the manner of Christ's existence in the Sacrament quam etsi verbis exprimere vix possumus which although we can scarce expresse in words and yet in the fourth ch it is called of the Holy Catholick Church Transubstantiation convenienter et proprie appositly and properly And in the second Canon of the same session it saith of Transubstantiation quam quidem conversionem Catholica Ecclesia aptissime Transubstantiationem apellat which the Catholick Church cals most fitly Transubstantiation Was the Council of Trent infallibly assisted or assisted with infallibility in these contradictions and yet it may be these not all Num. 9. But number the ninth will make an end of our cause if a Rodomontado of my Adversary could do the deed Thus And when you ask again why you are charged as if you were opposed to the true Catholick Church I answer Christ had in all ages a true Catholick Church and consequently he had such a Church when your Reformation as you call it began But at this your Reformation you did oppose in very many and important points of Doctrine not onely the Roman but all other Churches upon earth Therefore without doubt you opposed the truly Catholick Church in very many and important points And in plain English I tell you this Argument which is in lawfull form is unanswerable Ans So then But is this Achilles Is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Alas if we come near him it is but bombast First we deny it in the lawfulnesse of the forme which he asserts for it is concluding in the second figure affirmatively and in this regard onely it is unanswerable for it is not to be answered for want of forme But yet secondly lest they should think it is unanswerable in the matter we answer to the major first by distinguishing if he takes the true Catholick Church as in the Apostles Creed he commits an equivocation for so it cannot be taken in the minor because we have in the minor the Roman Church and other Churches now the Roman is a visible Church he means and so he means the other Churches to be visible for we cannot properly oppose he will think any but visible Churches but in the Creed is meant the Church invisible which is the object of faith If he takes it for the true Catholick Church visible as always perspicuous and flourishing in visibility in all the parts of it it is denied that the Church Catholick is so visible and therefore we deny the major and need not say any thing to the minor and yet also we deny the minor because if it were not so visible we could not be said to oppose it And he cannot prove that we opposed all other Churches because they were not in his sense visible and therefore how can he say that we opposed all other Churches since if they were visible in the parts to some that were Neighbors yet not visible to the world generally Was the Church lesse the Church in the Primitive times when it wanted candles to be seen in the night or the seven thousand which Elijah did not know of lesse belonging to the Church of the Jews because they did not openly professe the true Religion How then can it be said rationally that we opposed all Churches for how could he or any one man under Heaven know all the Churches of the world then Yea thirdly in how many and important points did the Reformers oppose the Greek Church and the Waldenses who as the Author of the History of the Trent Council sayes had forsaken the Church of Rome then four hundred years before in his fifth book Yea fourthly the major proposition supposeth for all times and places doth it not for so the Catholick Church is properly taken as including all times and places and so we deny the minor we did not oppose all Churches of all times Dato non concesso that we did at the Reformation oppose not onely the Roman but all other Churches yet did we not oppose all Churches or the Roman of the Primitive times and therefore did we not oppose the Catholick Church Yea yet fifthly we distinguish dissent from opposition Although opposition includes a difference yet every difference doth not include an opposition for then St. Cyprian had opposed the Church in differing from it upon the point of Rebaptization And if it be said that the point of Rebaptization was not then defined by the Church we say that yet this consideration doth not make every difference to have in it the nature of opposition for then though St. Cyprian had not opposed the authority of a Church in a Council yet had he opposed the authoritie of the Church which then did bind him more than the Trent Council doth us And that St. Cyprian did so oppose the Church was not then held by the Church Catholick Sixthly to return the Argument upon them Christ had in all ages a true Catholick Church and consequently he had such a Church when their deformation went on in the Trent Council but they then in very many and important points of Doctrine did oppose all true Catholicks therefore without doubt they opposed the truly Catholick Church in very many and important points as in communion under one kind in Transubstantiation in Purgatorie in the merit of works in seven Sacraments of proper name in invocation and religious worship of the Saints in Images Yea the Roman Church hath more formally opposed the whole Church because in the Trent Council it would have the Roman Church to be the Catholick which supposeth that all Christians must strike sail to them or else they are sunke Seventhly we tell him wherein the Romanist hath divided from the whole Church but he doth not tell us
particularly in what points we have divided from all Churches Indeed it is the safest way not to come to particulars for fear of discovery In generalibus latet totâ—s But let us come up closely to him Either the Fathers of the Primitive Church are on my Adversary's side in the points of difference or our's or have not expressed themselves sufficiently on either part but the Fathers of the Primitive times are not on my Adversary's side For there was none of those points which we have named held by them and my Adversary did know that some of ours have confronted Campion's challenge about the Fathers with another challenge to the Romanists to shew so much as one Father one Doctor in the Primitive times that hath expressed himself for them in the points of difference Then if they have expressed themselves and if not we have not opposed them they are on our side because we are upon contradictions Thus we see what is become of his unanswerable Argument We see that we can differ from them without opposition to the Catholick Church better than they can differ from us without opposition to the Catholick Church because we in our difference from them have kept the Catholick faith which they have warped from And so that which is left behind in the number will never come up to fight us to any purpose For as for the Reformers opposing the Church because they censured that which was proposed by the Papists as opposite to the word of God we take our Reformation from Scripture and also we say it is not necessary in points of difference to conclude that what is by them urged is opposite to the word of God For it is enough to us to differ upon the negative to the word of God since our principle is that the Scripture is a sufficient rule of faith and practise And therefore though a point proposed doth not oppose Scripture as not being contradictory yet we reject it from being any Article of faith because it is not contained in Scripture And thus the negative authority of Scripture doth sufficiently conclude against any other article of faith than what is in it And as for our not naming in this whole age one age in this last thousand years wherein Christ had a truly Catholick Church agreeing with you in those many and most important points wherein your Reformers taxed us to have opposed the Scriptures This in effect hath been answered before and hath not any thing materially new But first this is always an unreasonable demand which goes upon a certain presumption of the Romanist that the true Church must be alwaies conspicuously visible which is to be denied and therefore it doth not follow that because we cannot name any Church agreeing with us therefore there was none Secondly if he means by a truly Catholick Church one particular Church of the Catholick those whom we have named did not agree with them in the most important points of difference as not in point of Discipline nay they have differed from them and therefore have agreed with us in the questions betwixt us And besides if they meane a truely Catholick Church in this sense as a part of the whole then a particular Church it seems may be a Catholick and a truely Catholick Church and therefore have they no reason to vaunt of the title of Catholick given by the Antients to the Church or Bishop of Rome because other Churches may also be Catholick and why then should the Pope usurp the title of universall Bishop over a particular Church And if he means by a truely Catholick Church the Catholick Church properly then he doth imply a contradiction that the Catholick Church which includes all ages should be limited to a thousand yeares But thirdly he did wisely stint the question for this thousand yeares since he could not well go further for the six hundred years before do shew no disagreement to us in the most important points of difference And let them assure themselves that our agreement with the six hundred of the Primitive Church is more available for our defence than the supposed disagreement with the thousand years after is available to the accusation Fourthly suppose no one Church could be named corresponding with us in most important points for this thousand yeares yet even in every age of the thousand yeares there might be and some have named severall persons which have held the materiall points of difference betwixt us and severall of the Roman Communion have bore testimony to the truth yea even in the Trent Council in so much that they have been complained of for bending to Protestâ—ntisme as may be seen through the History of that Council Fifthly what Tyranny is this to stifle and smother by their domination all other Churches as much as they could which were not of their faith and then challenge us to shew what Church agreed with us Sixthly Omne reducitur ad principium as Aquinas's rule is then we are to take a true Church from trial of Scripture and we put it to this issue All Catholick Churches agree with Scripture in the most important points of difference we agree with Scripture or Scripture with us in these points therefore we agree with all Catholick Churches in these points because we agree in tertio Therefore if the Romanists differ let them look to it We differ from none but them in those points and that we differ from them is their fault and our security If they had not left the Catholick to be a singular Plenipotentiarie we had not left Communion with them as a part of the whole or rather they had not left our Communion Delictum ambulat cum Capite And as for that he says And as for externall division you cannot name the Church upon earth from which you did not divide your selves at your Reformation We return it with the necessary changes nor can they at their Deformation name the Church upon earth from which they did not divide themselves And I challenge them to tell me if they can to what Church on earth then visible they did joine themselves or who acknowledged to be of their Communion But first as for external Communion we say moreover first we divided not first Communion but the Pope when in the time of Queen Elizabeth he sent a Bill to prohibit his Subjects Communion with us 2. We divided not from their Church simply but so as corrupted and engaging us upon communion with them to error and bad practise We left the house as infected with a mind of returning when it shall be clear and safe for us Thirdly as before we divided not from the Primitive times in point of Doctrine or Discipline now then suppose there was not at the Reformation any other Church unto which we might joine which is more agreable to the duty and honor of a Church to joine with a corrupt Church in Doctrine and practise or to leave their communion externall
these are plainly enough set down in Scripture if the Roman Church had not disturbed the clear waters for the chief Fisher and if not the Church by positive law cannot appoint that which is absolutely necessary to salvation All things that are of Divine right are not simply necessary to salvation to be sure then what is not of Divine but positive right as the Romans have also distinguished is not simply necessary And therefore whereas he says there are endles Controversies about them I am of his opinion in my sense of the words for they are to no end amongst those who have a sober mind to be directed in them by Scripture at least they are to no end as in order to our dispute because they come not within compasse of absolute necessity to salvation It may be necessary to know how these are to be ordered that they may be ordered rightly but this is not absolutely necessary to salvation yea again if these things were left to the Church we must take the order before the Councils otherwise the Church before the time of Councils had wanted that which was necessary and therefore indeed are they not necessary or else God had been wanting to them in necessaries A third sort of things necessary not plainly set down as he thinks we have in his fourth number Num 4. All being obliged to serve God in a true Church c. This is ambiguously delivered either as in sensu composito being in a true Church they are obliged to serve God in it or are bound to finde out the true Church and then to serve God in it Now though both belong to our duty yet both are not equally necessary because it is possible in that which is not a true Church if so many things be necessary to a true Church as they would have salvation may be had by simple ignorance and gerall repentance And I hope some were saved before a Church with all the integrants of a true Church was framed But in a true Church no man can be saved without serving of God The Church of the Donatists was not accounted by St. Austin nor my Adversary a true Church yet St. Austin did not deny but some might be saved in it Now this is understood by my Adversary in the latter way namely that every one is bound to finde out the true Church and to serve God in it for so it followeth Having a lawfull succession of true Pastors truely ordained themselves and truely ordaining the Priests who must be known to administer true Sacraments in their true matter and forme Preaching also the word of God by lawfull mission Ans Now me thinks the Romans with their mountains should have relation to Montanus who fansied that the Paraclet did by priviledge come into him to make up what was wanting to salvation by inspiration For we must have infallible notes of a Church which the word of God in Scripture hath not appointed to us And we must have things necessary to salvation which the Scripture hath not made necessary yet they must be necessary to salvation for their use Certainly as he gives well the cognisance of a good man so may we also make use of it for a good Christian 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we ought not to judge honest men by their performances but by their purpose so we ought to esteem good Christians not by their happinesse to finde but by their purpose to finde out the true Church which cannot reasonably be done by a lawfull sucession First because this is accidentall not as to salvation onely but as to a true Church and therefore can be no certain and universall rule for how came the first Church which was originall to the Descendants to be a true Church yea secondly how will the true Church be a true Church according to their principles in the time of Antichrist when there is not like to be according to their profession almost any face of a Church How shall it then be discerned by a lawfull succession of Pastors Thirdly this cannot be characteristicall of the Roman Church which they would have to be the onely true Church because the Greek Church may challenge this priviledge also Yea fourthly it is possible that a false Church may so fairly plead a lawfull succession as the Church of the Donatists who had also Bishops as to those who should come a long while after them that it could not be easily discerned by common people and therefore this is not the way so plain and direct as that fools cannot err Yea fifthly we are not to discern true Doctrine by the persons but the persons by the Doctrine according to Tertullian as before and therefore if true Doctrine be not proved by succession as it cannot be because then it should be measured by the person we cannot conclude a true Church by the succession since all sober men will rather argue thus that is a true Church which professeth true Doctrine than that Church professeth true Doctrine because it hath a true succession of Pastors Yea sixthly did my Adversary mean what he said of a particular Church or of the universall Church Not of a particular Church sure for that cannot be the way and Judge of all Christians as he intended But then of the universall Catholick Church Well then he must mean that that is the true Catholick Church which hath a lawfull succession of Pastors namely of Bishops of Rome who is by them called signantly the Pastor of the Church This must be his meaning in reason because the lawfull succession of Pastors in particular Churches is by my Adversary necessary for themselves but not for the Catholick Church which can consist without those parts which are not true and therefore no parts And this is like to be his meaning by his opinion So then the Roman Church he would have here by the premisses to be the true Church as being supposed to have a lawfull succession of Pastors namely Bishops of Rome But how shall we give up our selves in absolute obedience to the guidance of the Roman Church if this were an infallible and constitutive mark of the true Church that it hath a lawfull succession of Pastors For no man can have so much as a morall certitude that there hath been in Rome from St. Peter an interrupted lawfull succession of Pastors much lesse can he have a Divine perswasion thereof For first it can never be proved by Scripture that St. Peter was at Rome I do not deny it that he was ever there but it is no object of faith And the Romanists are shrewdly put to it for a proof when to prove it they would interpret Babylon from which St. Peter writes to be Rome But then Secondly St. Peter should rather have derived the Priviledge of universall jurisdiction and infallible direction to Antioch as is abserved where he sate first seven years as Caranza sets it down and where Christians had their name
he note this Because it is right Will he correct the Magnificate This is ad verbum to the Text 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yea he cannot find fault with our translation in this without condemnation of the Rhemish for so they to correct From hence he says You should conclude thus All Scripture is given by inspiration of God But all Doctrine given by inspiration from God containeth plainly all things necessary to salvation Therefore all Scripture containeth plainly all things necessary to salvation Ans I am easily brought to St. Basil's rule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to teach without envy to learn without shame But I need not learn from my Adversary how to order my discourse in this particular The forenamed text which I used in my second rejoinder was produced patly against his assertion that If God had not left us the infallible direction of his Church he had not well provided for the salvation of men To this I opposed the text in the 15 and 16. v. that the Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation And by consequent God hath well provided for salvation of men in generall Then I urged the particulars in which it is able to make us wise unto salvation in the 16. ver And now because I did not conclude punctually against the terms he hath in this paper and yet nemo temetur divinare he tells me that I and ours have a notable talent in not concluding contradictorily As he said in Tacitus Vtinam tu tam fortiter feries To the businesse then we say first that my Adversary did or might know that in a discourse every Syllogism or proof or answer doth not formally and in terminis conclude against the main question It is sufficient if it concludes against the last instance for if that be rightly made the virtue thereof will rebound ultimately to the principal question And secondly as to his Syllogism which he thinks concludes absurdly upon our opinion we say it is unanswerable because it hath neither mode nor figure He had better have put it into an Enthymem or a full Syllogism thus Whatsoever is inspired by God contains plainly all things necessary to salvation All Scripture is inspired by God therefore all Scripture Now he had the wit not to put it thus because we should so easily have denied the major as it is to be taken in the note of universality whatsoever distributively yea also and because whatsoever so is inspired doth not contain any thing necessary to salvation for every thing in Scripture doth not contain any necessary point And therefore like a Sophister he wraps it up in an obscure form yea none that it might not be discovered Thirdly if All in the propositions be taken collectively or complexively so we own the matter of the propositions and the Conclusion hath nothing in it but sound Doctrine without his consequences of teaching submission and obedience to the Church and by her all things necessary to salvation And fourthly he should discreetly have taken all Scripture complexively for if it were to be understood distributively then if every part of Scripture were profitable to all those ends what would become of their additions of verbum non scriptum If every part could make the man of God perfect what use of the merchandize of traditions as of necessity to salvation And yet fifthly it is like he would have swallowed his own discourse for the Church thus All definitions of the Church are inspired by God All Doctrine of the Church inspired by God contains all things necessary to salvation therefore all definitions of the Church contain all things necessary to salvation This would have pleased him well since he says the Scripture teacheth all things necessary to salvation eo ipso by this one article because it teacheth us submission to the Church and by her all things necessary to salvation Therefore sixthly he mistakes me simply or worse if he thought that I meant to conclude contradictorily by every particular unto which the Scripture is profitable He commits herein a fallacie of division making that to be concluded severally which is to be concluded jointly And seventhly we will now join issue with our Adversary upon the text and first upon the 15. ver thus That which is able to make us wise unto salvation contains plainly all things necessary to salvation but the holy Scriptures are able to make us wise unto salvation Therefore the Scripture contains plainly all things necessary to salvation And if there be exceptions made as to the major that Timothy was not an ordinary man and therefore though they might have that effect upon Timothy yet not upon every one we say as before that it follows ex abundanti If there were enough to make him wise then a majori others because he as a Minister needed more direction as my adversary affirm'd with Mr. Cressy And I hope they will not say that they were able to make him wise unto salvation because he had learned them from his youth for then if they would learn them from their youth they might make them also wise unto salvation and therefore they should also learn them from their youth as the saying of the Jews was a boy of five yeares old is to be applyed to the Bible Again a fortiori if the old Testament was able to make him wise unto salvation then surely the old and the new together but the old was able to make him wise unto salvation the new not being yet for a great part written as the Rhemists note And when they can find as much reason for the addition of their word not-written to the new Testament as there was for the addition of the new Testament to the old then let them say that this text doth not exclude Traditions If they did say it did not exclude Traditive interpretations it would be more reasonable because the new is added to illustrate and declare the old but it excludes traditions of new matter because the new adds no new matter to the old And yet again as to the manner of delivery of things necessary in Scripture if the old Testament which was more obscure was yet able to make Timothy wise as to point of knowledge unto salvation then certainly in the new Testament is there sufficiencie of plainnesse because the new is the old revealed as St. Paul speaks 2. Ep. to the Cor. 3.18 But we all with open face beholding as in a glasse the glory of the Lord are changed into the same Image from glory to glory as by the Spirit of the Lord. And now we will put into the argument all the ends unto which the Scripture is profitable That which is profitable to all those ends spoken of in the 16. ver to Doctrine in things to be known to redargution of errors to correction of manners to instruction in Righteousnes that the man of God might be perfect furnished for every good work doth sufficiently provide all
said that God wanted ability to set down other points as plainly and there is no repugnance ex natura rei that other points should be as plainly set down as that therefore if God in his wisedom and goodnesse caused by his Spirit that verity to be clearly delivered for our salvation how can we believe that he did not also direct the Pen-men of the Spirit of God to deliver all other points necessary to salvation with necessary plainnesse Again thirdly if the word of the Prophets was a more firme word than the Testimomonies of the Apostles as Estius upon the place as to the Jewes for the faith in the Messiah then where we have that and the writings of the Apostles in the new why should we not account this a more sure word than the word of the Church in this point or any other contained in Scripture Why may not we as likely doubt of the Church specially a particular Church as well as the Jews might doubt of the Apostles And is not the Doctrine of the old and new Testament more sure than the Doctrine of the Church To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this it is because there is no light in them as the Prophet speaks then the Scripture is the rule of their Doctrine and therefore more sure that which gives credit to others must be more credible Yea and untill they prove that something new in substance was added to the new Testament above what was contained in the old that text availes also for Christians against any thing not written Neither can the Romanist say that that word of Prophecy shines in a dark place by the hand of man in the Church for it is spoken of the word as written and the Prophets who then wrote the word were dead If the Prophets had been then living it had been reasonable for the Jews to have taken their direction from their mouth as it might be reasonable for us to take the word of God from the mouth of the Apostles were they now living but the Prophets are dead and the Apostles are dead by whom we know God spake but that God speaks now by the Church as he did by them we are yet to deny untill it be better proved or these texts better answered But we have one more Your sixth and last text is Acts the 17. where it is said of the Beroeans Num. 14. they received the word with all readinesse of mind and searched the Scripture daily whether those things were so Against the proceedings of this Text he brings severall Pleas some common to former Texts as at the latter end of the number these are answered already those that are new we shall here examine And first he calls for one evident clear syllable which saith the Beroeans did search the Scripture before they believed St. Paul Nay is it not first said they received the word with all readinesse of mind Ans First he says that which is to be proved that those words they received the word with all readinesse of mind do inferr rather that they did believe St. Paul before they did search the Scriptures For though St. Paul was infallible in his Doctrine and therefore might be believed and ought yet it doth not appear that they were perswaded of him and therefore it is not said they recieved St. Paul with all readinesse of mind but they received the word and they might receive it with all chearfulnesse as good though they did search it whether true Secondly they might receive it with all readinesse upon appearance of probability although they did not believe it until by search they found it agreeable to the Scriptures Yea somewhat may be received without probability and with all readinesse of mind too as an Adversaries paper And that they did not believe it untill they had compared it with the writings of the Apostles appears more probable by the following words that they did daily search the Scriptures if these things were so their search was an sit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If they did believe why did they still search and daily search Doe we search for that which infallibly we believe Then where is certainty which Mr. Knot makes necessary to faith But he himself will ingenuously confesse as much as seems requisite for our cause in these words upon those motives which St. Paul proposed to them before they searched the Scriptures and being by those motives and Instructions well enlightned to understand the Scriptures they for their further comfort and confirmation searched the Scriptures daily to see whether they testified the same point and this one point of our Saviours comming being clearly in Scripture perhaps St. Paul might bid them search in such and such texts for it These words we must take great notice of what motives they were he doth not expresse but such it seems as upon which many thousands did recieve it whose proceedings you can never prove lesse laudable than the Beroeans But this his parenthesis does 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He might have left it out better For why then are these Beroeans commended If there was not in them somewhat of excellent ingenuity why are they commended for this that they received the word with all chearfulnesse searching the Scriptures daily Doth not this belong also to their commendation that they searched the Scriptures daily Nay it may be further if we may have leave to be critical their receiving of the word with all chearfulnesse was concurrent with the searching of the Scriptures daily and so the participle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be taken per modum medii whereby they came to embrace the word the use of Participles is not it may be infrequent in this sense However it is not comely for him when the Scripture doth give a reputation and honor to these Beroeans to equalize many thousands to them But we must a little more reflect upon his words Motives these Beroeans had proposed by St. Paul before they searched the Scriptures But what motives That is not expressed by St. Paul nor indeed that they had any Well but we give it that they had motives And if the authority of the Church had been one of those motives my Adversary would not have omitted it And yet also we can grant motives before the resolution of faith So that those Beroeans might have motives and yet not believe before the searching of the Scriptures But this how loath is he to come to that they did search the Scriptures as in order to believing Therefore he doth substitute other ends of their searching of the Scriptures namely for their comfort and confirmation What For their comfort and confirmation and not for their faith But if the searhing of the Scriptures be of use to our comfort and confirmation then also to our faith but not to beget it it may be No As in naturalls so in spirituals we may be said to be nourished by
an Elench a contradictory syllogism for it should conclude something necessary to salvation which is not known in Scripture And if this be put into the major proposition that it is necessary to salvation to be known we utterly deny it untill it be well proved which we think will never be And to that which follows of St. Austin's testimony in the nineteenth ch not the twenty second de Vnit Ecclesiae we consequently can easily make answer even by saying as he that If there were any wise man of whom our Saviour had given testimony that he should be consulted in this question we would make no doubt to perform that he should say lest we should seem not to gainsay him so much as to gainsay Christ by whose testimony he was recommended now Christ beareth witnesse to his Church therefore But what then What is this to our purpose For first this informs us what should be done but not upon what necessity whether to salvation or not In things of question we deny not all due respect to the Church but we are upon things necessary to salvation and amongst such this point is out of question no question But secondly those that should be consulted with should be believed in proportion to Scripture should they not yes surely because Christ hath given testimony to his Church in Scripture and if we are to take the testimony of the Church from Scripture then are we to give credence to what is said in analogie to Scripture Now though it be not openly and evidently read in Scripture as he says yet there may be some seeds as it were in Scripture of it whereupon the Conclusion might rise And therefore where Scripture hath the principle we give belief to the Conclusion in respect thereunto Yea the prime and formall reason of believing the Church must come from Scripture by which there in that book St. Austin doth prove the Catholick Church so that if the Church be credible by the Scripture then the Scripture is more credible But thirdly this is said by the Father of the Catholick Church not of a part of it and therefore they cannot conclude from hence to the Roman Church For it being understood of the whole Church as such a part as a part hath no part in it but as it agrees to the whole Neither is it said of the Catholick Church for place then but also the Catholick for time and yet if for the Catholick then we cannot equally draw it to the Catholick for place now for the Catholick morally was more credible then than now And fourthly as he hath excepted against the concluding unto all points from the Scriptures concluding one so we ad hominem deny that he can conclude from the Church unto all points because St. Austin useth it for one point against the Donatists And as he argued from the Catholick against the Donatists a perverse part which would have salvation onely within their circuit in Africa so may we argue from the Catholick Church against the Roman which will have all subject to their Communion or damnation And then also may we limit that which followes Whosoever refuseth to follow the practice of the Church doth resist our Saviour himselfe who by his testimony commends the Church This respecting things of Discipline against Schisme may be good but what is this to universal and absolute assent in point of faith And it concernes the Catholick Church as before not the Romane or if it did concern the Church of Rome then yet dato non concesso it doth not at all avail to the Church of Rome now As for his distinction of using this Testimony Not for the authority of S. Austin with whom I am so little satisfied but for the convincing reason We answer that this is but a flourish yet wisely made lest he should be as well engaged to answer the testimonies of the Fathers against them I say then that we give more respect to the Fathers than indeed they do when they differ from them and we give as much as the Fathers desire for themselves And why have they themselves then left some practices of the Church as unction with Baptism standing up in prayer betwixt Easter and Whitsontide Infant Communion and others But I shall conclude this Number with S. Austin's Reason mutatis mutandis Whosoever refuseth to follow the Doctrine of Scripture in things necessary resisteth our Saviour himselfe who by his testimony commends and commands to us the Scripture Let him think of this who is an Impugner of the sufficiency of Scripture To pass by his suppositions of his proofe Num. 17. which are already nulled by me he doth here take notice of my charging him with a contradiction in adjecto for saying we should submit to the infallible Judge whatsoever Reasons we have to the contrary But this he doth not ingenuously deliver as it was delivered by me and yet in effect saies nothing to it but that I do ill suppose any solid Reasons grounded in Scripture against such a Judge And this is all he would say to make out my charge against him of a Contradiction in adjecto leaving out those words of mine for it is impossible for us in our judgements to assent to that for which we see reasons of Scripture to the contrary c. May I not say that this was not fair dealing but to let this pass if he can yet prove or any for him such a Judge to be the Pillar and Ground of Truth whose tongue is directed by the same Spirit who directed the Pen of those who writ the Scripture then indeed I should suppose that which could not be but this I deny to be proveable by all the wit of Rome and therefore I still hold my supposition and yet if this could be made good I should yield my supposition yet I could not reverse my charge against him of the contradiction in adjecto which lies not in the supposition of Reasons out of Scripture against such a Judge but in this that we must submit to such a Judge whatsoever Reasons we have out of Scripture to the contrary For if there could be any such Judge proved there could not be Reasons out of Scripture to the contrary And Reason out of Scripture will binde beliefe against any proof It would not onely put a demurr against proofe but prevail against it and if the proofe were out of Scripture then there should be a contradiction in Scripture for there should be reason for such a Judge and reason against it and so the Scripture should not be infallible which they confess Num. 18. But this not right dealing with what I wrote shall not answer for the misusage of Bellarmin that he here accuseth me of because I said If we are by duty to go the way of absolute obedience to the dictates of the Judge we must then if he says vices are vertues say so too as your Cardinall Bellarmin determins This
know that de officio this is the way of constituting and so of distinguishing the Church and de facto this is the way that S. Austin and also some of their owne Divines do prove the Church by yea this is the way which my Adversaries must take and do And thirdly neither do we say that we believe the Scripture to be the word of God by the testimony of the Spirit but to those who do professe the beliefe of the Scripture to be the word of God And therefore are we even with them in this kinde for as they deale with Heathens as to the proofe of Scripture by the Church so do we also as the Fathers were wont by the Church universal And I can use the authority of the Church as an inducement unto the Heathen although the Pontificians cannot use the authority of the Chnrch to me as the determinative of faith So then if they can prove the authority of the Church infallibly to be infallible without dependence upon the Scripture they shall indeed speak to the purpose Otherwise they are shut up in a circle out of which they can never move their foot The thirty second number hath in it much and little longae Num. 32. Ambages sed summa sequor fastigia rerum The intendment of it is to fix the wheel by assuring the Church to be infallible without running to the Scripture In the beginning of it it would prove their faith good because they believed those who delivered it had Commission from God But this satisfieth not because the question rebounds upon them why they believed that those who delivered it had Commission from God If they say they had assurance thereof by the Spirit then they come to our kind of assurance Therefore they determine this belief upon two motives one comming from the Doctrine in order to God change of life the other from God in order to the Doctrine in miracles and there he amplifies in two leaves which might have been dispatched in three words Indeed the first he says not much of for it is no concluding argument For first it doth not distinguish Doctrines for thus the Jew the Arrian the Socinian the Sectary might prove his Doctrine infallible Secondly the good life if it were a result of Doctrine yet not from the points of difference but the generall fundamentalls of Christian faith wherein the Controversies lie not Yea thirdly if this new life did proceed by way of emanation or absolute connexion from the points of difference we might join issue with them and have the better Yea fourthly Judas had a right Commission and yet no good life Yea fifthly the manners are rather to be proved good by the practicall Doctrine than speculative Doctrine if any Doctrine ultimately be such proved good by manners Therefore good life is no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Divine Doctrine nor yet of a Divine Commission Yea sixthly Dato non concesso that we mighr know the Church and Doctrine of it to be infallible by good life yet this is not conformable to their postulate that God should teach us all verity by the mouth of the Church as Stapleton speaks Then as to the other motive of faith in the true Church namely miracles we can say severall things first in thesi miracles are no certain distinctive of a Divine Commission because the man of sin may deceive by lying wonders as St. Paul speaks 2 Thes 2.9 And also Moses Deut. 13.1 2. Then this is no infallible motive for the believing of a Commission from God because we may be deceived in it And although upon supposition of a true miracle we might conclude a Commission from God yet this is not the way infallible because we may be deceived in the truth of the miracle whether it be such or not since the miracle cannot fidem facere de se as the testimony of the Spirit can Secondly the gift of miracles was a gift common to those who were not all Prophets as to penning of the Scripture and also not common for ought we know to some who did as St. Mark and S. Luke therefore this is not sufficient to resolve our faith in their Commission because not given Omni nor soli for whatsoever doth distinguish must have it self per modum differentiae Thirdly therefore since we must have faith to believe the miracles to be true we ask how we come to this faith if by the operation of the Spirit then faith ultimately is fixed upon our foundation namely the testimony of the Spirit by which we may as well be assured that the Scripture is the true word of God as that miracles are true Fourthly the gift of miracles was temporary and accomodated for that season of the Church And therefore cannot we prove by miracles new Doctrines as Invocation of Saints worshipping of Images Communion in one kinde Transubstantiation Supremacy of the Roman Bishop therefore if miracles did infallibly ascertain the divine Commission of the Prophets and Apostles to speak and write yet are not we satisfied by them in the question of new Doctrines which the Scripture gives us no account of but therefore he comes to Oral tradition For as for his reasoning in form thus in hypothesi The Preachers preached the Doctrine of our Church God confirmed their Doctrine by miracles therefore the Doctrine of our Church was confirmed by miracles it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For first not to carp at the form of his syllogism we say to the proposition that if they preached the Doctrine of the Roman Church as differently from the whole Church they preached what they ought not to preach and so the minor proposition is false If they did preach the same doctrine which the whole Church received in Scripture from the Apostles then we grant the minor and the conclusion too as much as doctrine can be confirmed by miracles but we distinguish of the time when the miracles were wrought namely in the time of the Apostles and by them For as for miracles done by S. Austin to confirm the same faith which we abolished in our reformation we say that Bede and Gregory and Brierly whom he quotes for testimony hereof are not to us surely of sufficient authority in their own cause Nay secondly they had best not add the testimony of the learned Magdeburgians lest they be ashamed to slight them in other matters but also chiefly upon this consideration because if the points of difference were confirmed by many miracles which he refers us to Brierly in his Index for then by the Argument before those points of difference were new for as miracles have themselves to faith so new miracles to new faith And if it was a new faith then it was not received by oral tradition from the Apostles successively and then they are undone Therefore let them speak no more to us of the miracles of S. Austin the Monk who shewed nothing so much wonderful as his pride in
is under a command and express precept St. Matth. 22.37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind And this cannot be moulded into the notion of a counsel for thus Christ answers to the question in the ver before what is the great Commandement of the Law And also in the ver after he saies this is the first and great Commandement Now to do thus is most perfect charity and therefore what we can do is comprehended under all that is commanded yea if the law requires more then we can do according to ordinary measure of grace then we cannot do more than the law requires now this the law requires and not only semper but ad semper as to the internal duty of love And who is there in all the world that loves the Lord alwaies with all his heart with all his soul with all his mind And therfore Gods law is not to be cut short that it may be made even with our ability present Neither doth the text named by him out of St. Iohn prove obedience to the law possible to us in the way we may keep Gods commandements in generale though not all as we ought as we are said to keep the way though sometimes we transgresse We may keep the commandements as a man keeps a Castle against the enemies he keeps it till he be beat out of it he keeps it against forsaking it but he doth not keep it so as not to be overcome he keeps them as to the purpose of his mind he doth not keep them absolutly as to all acts negative in commands negative and positive acts in affirmative commands He keeps them not as keeping contradicts all offending for in many things we offend all as St. Iames speaks And therefore can we not fulfil the law because the same Apostle saies 2 ch 10. He that keeps the whole law and offend in one shall be guilty of all And therefore this argument is peccant in the ignorance of the Elench for we can say that we may keep the commandements yet not fulfil them according to the power we had in Adam and according to the measure of the obligation which is not adequated to our strength now but to Gods law as an express of his holiness and as commensurable to mans ability in state of Original righteousness Nay it is observable also that the word in St. Iames which is rendered shall offend is as diminutive a word in the kind as I think any other for it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lest Hindan and the rest of that sort should think that venial sinnes do but cast a little dust upon a Christians life no defilement And therefore to conclude upon the whole matter if the Scripture needs an infallible interpreter to distinguish betwixt counsels and precepts both given in the mood of command this makes no difficulty until counsels find better proof If they will take our counsel let them keep their counsel to themselves This we may say as litle to as he saies in it of new discourse N. 56. He speaks here again of the losse of Divine books This we have spoken to before more then once upon his provocation And this pincheth them for why may not they then faile of some traditions and how then can we depend upon the Church when the Church should have kept them since the Church as the learned of them say is to depend upon them But own thing here he would urge that according to us we must pick out points necessary one out of one Book another out of another Ans Surely this is no strong plea for first ought not the word of God dwel plentifully in us as the Apostle speaks 2. Cannot any own easily discern historical books from doctrinal 3. Can they not take special notice of those heads of doctrine or practice unto which salvation is expressely annexed 4. This argument concludes more heavily against them for depending upon the Church Who can compare all their books from age to age for their doctrin who can compare who hath been most learned and most faithful to derive a successional summe of things to be believed and to be done nay who in the compare of Churches can preferre the best but by the best doctrin and yet according to them we must take the doctrine from the Churches who can measure the vast latitude of the universal Church by those rules of Vincentius is it not easier to receive necessaries from Scripture then to boult them out of so many volumes of ages And how should we be sure of keeping received traditions when some traditions which were received are not yet kept by the Roman Church 5. In Scripture though we pick for necessaries yet we have nothing false but we have false traditions have we not yea this is a false tradition that traditions are equal to Scripture Yea 6. If any books be lost they were lost before Christs time and yet those which remained in St. Pauls time were able to make Timothie wise unto salvation And towards the reading of the Apocryphal books that so we may reade over the whole Canon it is a supposition in stead of proofe The reading of them in the Church doth not inferre their canonicalness of proper name and this is made good to them they know lately by the Reverend and Learned Dr. Cosins in a book on purpose And as for accurate noting all places and conferring with other places What then multa non experimur quia difficilia multa difficilia quia non experimur Is not this possible is not Salvation worth the paines must every one amongst them know the distinct exact sense of all their definitions no they will say but the people should seek the law at the Priests mouths Well then so is it not necessary to Salvation that the people with us should be able exactly to conferre all places and as for those places which contain necessaries there is not such obscurity And yet surely some hardness according to their principles doth belong to faith for how otherwise should it be supernatural and meritorious therefore if their way of beliefe be so easie it doth not beare proportion to the qualities of faith assigned by Mr. Knott And as for Translations to agree with the Originals this we have canvased before And our people can do it as well as theirs better too because they have liberty of translations And to the truth of originals we must come in several causes as Bellarmin before Omne reducitur ad principiun is good here too And then the consectary of these difficulties he would make to be negative to us namely that God did not intend this book to be our only guide And he would perswade us thus Gods wisedome directs him to the best meanes to compass his intention And then he would frame a minor with advantage thus even our ordinary wisedome if we had an
intention to set forth a writing to end all necessary controversies would direct us to set down plainly clearly in one place all those few as you say points necessary to be believed So then this must be a good argument man in such a case in ordinary wisedome would do so therefore God hath done so Surely these Romanists speak from the top of the Capital and will not only teach men but God One found fault blasphemously with Gods creation thinking and saying that he could have made it better So. But the Schoolemen might have told my adversaries that though God could have made several things in their accidentals better yet they could not but say that he could not make them in a better manner Meliori modo So then also if they believe that God did make the Scripture they may believe that he could not make it in a better and more wise manner Let them satisfie then St. Pauls question who hath been his Counceller And then the argument from man to God will binde And yet 2. Turn the tables and this discourse is returned to them if God had intended the Church for our infallible guide he would clearly since his wisdome directs him to the best means for the compassing of his intention have told us so in one place or other as well as man tells us plainly who is our judge in point of law this they should have demonstrated but no more need be said of this since the question is de facto Yet another argument of this kind he hath against us God hath set down the cermeonies in Leviticus fully particularly and clearly points of faith necessary to salvation import incomparably more then points of meer ceremonie If then God had intended a book by which only he was resolved to deliver unto us all points necessary to salvation these points as you say being few he would in some one part of these books have clearly set down those few points a thousand times more importing than points of ceremony Ans Surely he hath better arguments or a bad cause because he in the time of the law appointed a Sanedrin as a standing Assembly to judge all causes and the high priest too in some case therefore he must have appointed such an Assembly now which should consist of many of the laity to judge all causes and the Pope too God is not moved by any thing to act all waies in the same manner Deus vult hoc propter hoc sed non propter hoc vult God orders this to this but by this is not moved But 2. His substratum here is false for he supposeth here that all the ceremonies are set down together in one place otherwise how can he upon compare say much more the summe of points necessary should have been set down in some one part of these books now the cerimonies are not all set downe together and now and then some morality is mingled with them And so also points necessary may be here and there mingled with other points without any disparagement of Gods wisedome 3. If he hath particularly clearly and fully set down points of ceremonie in Scripture then how much more points necessary to salvation a thousand times more importing then points of ceremonie But verum prius for it is theirs then the latter also upon the same account And so they may see how little they get by such arguments And therefore surely Christ is not obliged to his Church for credibility but his Church to his word and spirit Let them think upon that of Christ St. Iohn the 7.17 if any one will do my will he shall know of my doctrin whether it be of God or whether I speak of my selfe And yet another proof you bring in that many hold that the Epistles of St. Iohn were written after the Apocalypse c. And what then Is it therefore true because many hold so I trow not for then rather it should not be so because more hold the contrary but what would he make of it if they had been written after the Apocalypse this Upon this supposition the Epistles of St. Iohn are the last part of the canon now in this last part of the last part of the Canon Saint Iohn saies I have many things to write but I will not with inke and penne write them but I trust we shall see thee shortly and speake face to face Upon this the broken matter of his discourse might for more cleareness be put into this forme many things were written which are not set down in the canon no man can say that those many things were unnecessary Therefore no man can say that many things not unnecessary are not set down in the canon Ans We need not answer it The ground of the major is rotten and is to be made firm if it could by him that is not the order of the books And it is not the order in the Latin therefore this binds them to beleive the contrary And therefore the minor which must suppose that supposition must fall with it And yet also how he minceth it no man can say c. What is this to settle us in infallibility He might also have said better for himself some things not unnecessary might be amongst those which St. Iohn intended to speak to them and this would have served his turne against us But let them speak and prove categorically that the Epistles were written after the Apocalypse and that many things which he would speak unto them were necessary Otherwise no man can say that this argumentation concludes ought And besides the terms unnecessary might have a distinction if it sounds as useful it is not to the point of the question if as much as necessary yet what he should speak to them he should speak by the spirit of God and let them give us such assurance for what they would adde to Scripture then they will say somewhat And yet again they should not surely be necessary because many for surely some things which were necessary were written and yet those things which are certain are few as Tertullian said Certa sunt in paucis Again should those many things have been adverse to what he had written or diverse or the same in substance not adverse they will say because they say their traditions are praeter Evangelium not contra beside the Gospel not contrary if diverse then surely they did not contein things in substance necessary For would Saint Iohn have written several things not necessary and have left to word of mouth things necessary when Ebion and Cerinthus vaunted so much of their Apostolical traditions And if they were the same in substance then what addition Again if they were necessary how can this be reconciled to that of St. Iohn the 20.31 whereupon St. Austin and St. Cyrill and St. Chrysostom it seems do conclude that there was enough written which was sufficient to faith my third answer about this argument that
humane judicatories have their use without infalliblity he toucheth not My fourth he toucheth in the next paragr Par. 57. In this number he seems if I may think so to be a litle hooked and with more line to be more snarled There must stick upon the Church Roman a censure either of fallibility or unfaithfulness Thus it is they say the Scripture is not our guide sufficiently because it doth not decide controversies we return it to them that upon the same account the Church Roman is not because it doth not decide whatsoever is necessary to be believed by a full Catholique in their sense And for instance whether the Pope hath a temporal power or not if temporal whether directly as the Canonists or propter bonum spirituale as others then whether the Pope be superiour to a Council in things Ecclesiastical To these he gives me no positive account and yet are these points Cardines mundi ecclesiae the main points upon which the Church and world with them must turne Do they tell us that it is a necessary point know whether the king be head of the Church and is it not as necessary for them to know whether the Pope be head of the Church But we must consider his apology Our doctrine is that the Church can decide any point formerly revealed when any necessity shall require it or the declaration of this point concerne salvation Ans what worke would some adversary have made him for such a return The charge against Scripture was that it cannot end all necessary controversies I recriminate neither doth their Church They reply the Church can I reioyn first here they vary I said their Church they say the Church as if they would not own the Church of Rome in its catholickness 2. They say it can But if it can and will not I am yet to seek for my trust and as St. Ierom said to the Pelagians about the possibility of the law how shall we think that possible which was never done if it cannot how is it infallible in all points if it will not how is it faithfull if it can let it do so and then let them object our differences to us and the inability of Scripture to end them 3. He saies the Church can decide any point formerly revealed what meanes he by this if formerly revealed then what need of a judge for it and then the most they can do is to declare and so may another Church and that not necessary neither if it were formerly revealed Well then Are these points revealed or not if they be not revealed then by their own confession they cannot decide them And if they be formerly revealed what need to be decided but but 4. When any necessity shall require c. But let me know why when such a thing is proposed by the Church it is a fundamental and a necessary point to be believed and yet somewhat is necessary to be believed and yet not decided by the Church As for instance it is necessary to be believed that the Pope is head of the Church for so Bellarmin defines a Christian with subjection to the Pope as head of the Church in his Catechism And yet it seemes this is not decided by the Church because then it is decided whether he be supreme in Ecclesiasticals So then the definition of the Church cannot be the adaequate reason of our faith because somewhat is necessary to be believed which is not decided and yet again if somewhat be necessary to be believed then by my adversaries confession it ought to be declared because it doth concern our salvation And since the Church is to act not ex arbitrio but ex officio how can it else clear it self of the bloud of all men as St. Paul doth Acts 20.27 when it doth not declare 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the whole counsel of God And if they take counsel here in their sense we can make use of it to them thus that if he declared all counsels then much more necessary doctrine because counsels according to them are not simply necessary but yet it cannot be taken in their sense because he dischargeth himselfe hereby of the bloud of all men and therefore must it be meant of what was necessary to their salvation simply as counsels they say are not So then he thinks it the best way to pitch upon the negative and to say Salvation hath very securely been had without the decision of these points you speak of If Circumstances happen that salvation cannot be had without their decision they will then be decided Ans first then let there be a defalcation and discounting of one point from the number of those which are accounted by them to us necessary which the Scripture hath not decided and that is whether the King be head of the Church for surely there is as much reason of necessity to salvation for them to know whether the Pope be head of the Church as for us to know whether the King be head and more too since infallibility is annexed to their head 2. If Salvation may be had without an assurance in those points then how shall we be bound to the Trent Council in beliefe of the Roman Church to be the Apostolick Church without which no salvation when yet we need not know who is supreme in that Church Take it in this forme subjection to the universal Church is necessary to salvation the Roman Church is not universal unles he be head therefore unles he be head of the Church subjection to the Roman Church is not necessary to salvation And then Conclamatum est And if Circumstances according to him can bring these points under a necessity of decision then it seems they are but indifferent ex naturâ rei for circumstances are only considerable in case of indifferency And then by the virtue of the former discourse it is indifferent to salvation whether we be subject to the Roman Church or not And so might we end the business But he goes on if you acknowledge a reall necessity to be at all times of the infallible knowledge of these points Ans He doth not take notice that I dispute with him upon his own principles by which he he is bound to shew that the Church hath defined these points since he saies the Scripture hath not decided all necessary points but hath referred us to the Church for their decision Now then since these points are not necessary to us but to them who have that opinion of the Roman Church it belongs to them to shew the Church's decision of these points And therefore if they believe all Scripture and therefore these if they be determined there this will not serve them though it is enough for us because what the Scripture doth not clearly define they say the Church by Scripture is deputed to And if the Church hath not done it though they know the way to Rome they do not know the way to
it seems to stand his ground which Bellarmin and Peron and the Rhemists stand upon but also because the promise is made to the Catholique Church Thus then their Church is not the Catholique Church the promise is made to the Catholique Church therefore not to them The Roman Church may be a nest of errours idolatrous superstitious wickedly assuming the authority of an infallible Tribunal without sufficient authority though the Catholique Church be not such nor doth assume such authority as the errours of a particular Church are not charged duly upon the universal Church so the privileges of the universal Church are not infeoffed upon a particular Well but now we will do as he bids us and be patient till he shew in the next chapter how this concernes the Roman Church But shall I have my five answers answered then for he saies here that I begin to say nothing against him untill I begin to say sixthly So then I must be thought to say nothing against him because he hath nothing to say to what I said in those five answers The sixth answer then he takes notice of and it came in thus he had asserted the Church secure from all damnative errour I took upon advantage this as taking those words distinctively that though it was not free from all errour yet from errour damnative And I gave him good reason why he should take those words so because otherwise they are not like to be the Church unto which that priviledge is granted Upon this I argued against their infallibility according to the opinion also of Mr. Knot Therefore he now waves this debate and saies he argued ad hominem but we will hunt him out of this refuge too They cannot argue thus out of our principles because we say this of the universal Church not of a particular Church No Church of one denomination is secure from damnative errour therefore cannot they ultimately improve what we grant to the universal Church for their use But 2. He could not yet from hence conclude that no body shall be damned for following the guidance of the Church For not to say again that this is not appliable to the Roman Church which is not the Catholique Church yet may we not follow the universal Church absolutely because it is not in all points infallible For so consequently we might be bound to follow errour Yea 3. Since according to our principles it is not exempted from all errour according to Mr. Knot 's principles it cannot be our guide Yea 4. To Follow the Church in an errour may be damnative though the errour may not be damnative because another not knowing it to be an error may hold it without damnation but if I knew it to be an error yet follow it I incurre damnation because I resist a known truth And 5. Since the universal Church cannot shew its charter of being exempted from all errour it is not necessary for her alwaies to have such a visible existence as is necessary to afford a guidance So then whereas he askes me by what Logique do you inferre that because the Church is secured from all damnative errour therefore according to my doctrine she is not secured from other errours I answer it is very true simpliciter loquendo that the affirmation of one species doth not allwaies include a negation of the other namely when that which is affirmed is not a constitutive difference thereof But considering his words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and giving him good reason why he should mean them so I could not be blamed for guessing that he meant them so Yea the words which he hath used in this chapter for expressing the priviledge of the Church are yet so put togeher that they may seem suspiciously to bear such a construction Neither does he here positively deny as would become his confidence this distinction To put it then to an issue I shall put them to their choice how those words shall be understood whether distinctively or by way of epithet If distinctively then my consequences stand good upon that ground If not then have they such a task upon them which all the Roman wit and industry will never throughly performe for first then must they say that either all errour is damnative which indeed should have been proved upon former urging as much reason for all sins to be mortal as all errours to be damnative and more too since sin hath the guilt of the will simple errour hath not or else there may be errours not damnative which makes for us against the necessity of an infallible judge as to all points or that the Church cannot erre at all And then here will be a double labour to prove and indeed a double errour to say First that it hath not erred 2. that it cannot erre If the latter then to be sure the former indeed but if the fonmer then not presently the latter Yea if they will then stand to it that the Church is secure from all errour whatsoever then their Church is not the Church And the consequence is good and strong for that Church can erre because it hath erred in the Latin Bible in the supernumerary Canon of Scripture in the point of Transubstantiation in Communion under one kind In their Counsails as hath been shewed already and in the point of merit Ex condigno if the 30. Canon of the 6. Sess of the Trent Council be compared with Rom. 8.18 The Canon of the Council speaks an Anathema to him that shall say that the good works of a justified man do not vere mareri truly merit increase of grace consecution of eternal life if they shall die in grace and also increase of glory The Canon of the Scripture saith I account that the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared with the glory wich shall be revealed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do not weigh with Now whether Scripture be our rule of faith or not this must be an errour since they acknowledge the Scripture to be true and infallible For whatsoever is contradictory to truth is false this is contradictory to Scripture which is true In this they have erred from the Latin Fathers in the sence of the word from the Greek Fathers in the matter and from the Scripture which is our rule and was the rule of the Church until a Church rose up which would not be ruled And let them take notice too that sufferings are the best part of our obedience and if they are not worthy how should good actions merit More errours of their Church might be named but one errour with them is enough to contradict infallibility and to discharge us of following their Church He saies then I quarrel with one of the Cardinal vertues even Prudence herself Ans I think I may quarrel with one of the Cardinal vertues Prudence is one of the Cardinal vertues in Morality and one of the Cardinal vertues in Divinity Prudence is the politique
be answered when it is not At the end of this Section he saith You highly wrong St. Athanasius to say he did not hear the Church Ans I should be very loath to be truely guilty of this and surely if he grants that the Church may be mistaken in the fact he may be mistaken in this Censure which he should have proceeded in secundum allegata et probata I said this St. Athanasius did differ from the rest of the Church when the whole world did groan under Arrianisme So he did not hear the Church as differing in opinion though it is not said that he did not hear the Church as disobeying the Censure Here he supposeth that upon the virtue of former Principles he may conclude of the Church No She cannot erre in an errour not damnable No Let that which was formerly granted be compared with this and we shall conclude the contrary To excommunicate a person who is not to be excommunicated is to erre The Church may excommunicate a person not to be excommunicated Therefore the minor is as good as confessed by him because the Church may be mistaken in the fact Nay he saith it in terms and so there may be an errour in the mistake of the fact He proceeds Hence that common Doctrine of Antiquity that it is not possible to have a just cause of separating from the Church Ans Besides the nullity of this upon the want of a true ground as before he doth misreport the axiom or else he must distinguish of Separating There is no just cause of Schism for the proposition hath in it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because if there be a just cause it is not Schism but though every Schism is a Separation every Separation is not Schism Take then separation in specie for Schism so it may be true but a Separation from a Church imposing errours in Faith and things unlawful in practice is not without a just cause and therefore is it not Schism It is not without a just cause by his former confession just now in those words So men should be bound to assent unto an errour which is impossible And again this is to be understood of Separating from the Catholique Church or from a particular Church for that order wherein it agrees with the Catholique But this is not our case for the Roman is but a particular Church and we separated upon Catholique Principles that so we might hold union with the Catholique Church And then again there is a difference betwixt a national reformation and a private Separation And therefore yet the distinction is not disabled namely of separating from the errours and not from the Church unless it were better proved that the Church is secured from all errour which that text doth not prove Then goes he on to take away somewhat I said to the text in my first and fifth answer to it He claps them together and would make me to conclude thus this maketh nothing for the Authority of the universal Church Ans Let them remember again for Aquinas tells us that we cannot forget natural Principles that the whole is greater than the part I allow much to a particular Church in correspondence with the Universal therefore little to their Church And if I do reply that this text belongs also to particular Churches then this doth redound to the honour of the Universal Church And that this doth belong to particular Prelats to excommunicate he himself doth confess in this Section Therefore must he conclude that I conclude for the Universal Church And yet moreover in all this long gloss upon the text how little have we had of that upon which all in this discourse turns namely whether Authority of excommunication be it in the Universal or a particular Church respects not formally the contempt not the non-assent Let them speak less or more to the purpose And yet again he would drive it on in a loose way that we have a command from God to hear the Church absolutely and universally To this purpose he saies Those who disobey the judges disobey the Common-wealth so generally speaking those who disobey the Prelats of the particular Church disobey the universal Church commanding her to proceed according to her Decrees Canons and definitions Ans Here is not much and for them less A Common-wealth is a term ambiguous and may be taken strictly or largely strictly in the form largely as including head and members And in this large sense may be considered with more respect to the Body or to the Head in confuso or in capite If he takes it in the strict sence it is not to any purpose because there is a different reason of laws in the Common-wealth and in the Church For in a Common-wealth so Laws proceed from them as the efficient thereof but in the Church truths and duties do come from God and therefore in such cases the disobedience reflects upon God Now the case we dispute upon is in necessary truths and duties If he understand a Common-wealth largely and then with more particular repute to the people the disobedience to the judges doth not reflect upon them unless objectively and consequently because though they are not their Judges by way of Authority yet they are their Judges in way of End for their good If it be taken with more relation to the head whose judges they are by authoritative commission it is true that the disobedience to the Judge doth redound upon him but here is difference betwixt them for particular Prelats do not depend upon the universal Church as Judges do upon the Head of a Common-wealth because Bishops have their Authority by divine right which was contended for hotly in the Trent Council and had proceeded affirmatively had not the Roman Court bandied against it And then also the matter of disobedience we speak of is from God not the universal Church but the matter of Civil disobedience to the Judge is from the Head And then again we do not speak of disobedience positive which my Adversary doth instance in but in obedience which is negative And then again particular Prelats are not so bound in things of particular order as the people are bound to the Laws of a particular Nation And also then this will redound to the Adversaries prejudice for the particular Prelats of their Church have not proceeded according to the Canons Decrees and definitions of the universal Church as hath been shewed And also this is against them because then my Adversary confesseth that this text under debate is competible fairly to particular Churches and therefore they have no reason to appropriate it to themselves And so upon the whole matter we can say as much in a due respect to the Catholique Church as they do here and yet hold our own So then he doth not contradict here And yet again he is importunate to prove that disobedience to the Church at last redounds to Christ and God out of the 16.
of a Supreme Prelat or of a Council And that particular Prelats are here meant we need not prove to the Pontificians who take too much notice that there Epistles were written but upon particular occasions and for particular times And therefore this being written to the Hebrews should not by that account concern us Yea if it were written with an intention for Prelats in a Council it must be written for them per saltum not for the present times but for above 300. years after 2. This relates to those who did watch for their Souls which being put per se is to be understood of those that teach the Word and so it corresponds to the 7. ver where those that are set over them are specified by teaching the Word The obedience then there injoyned respects those as teaching the the Word not formally as exercising authority of Jurisdiction And therefore that Text is not here well applied Thus far the power of the Supreme Prelat is extended by the consent of the whole Church Ans We see then their own differences to be such as that they may be ashamed to upbraid us with our differences and we not ashamed to be upbraided Can my Adversaries exactly point out the maximum quod sic of the power of the Supreme Prelat of the universal Church Must he that is by them acknowledged to be the Pillar of the Church have his Pillars set him beyond which he must not budge Tell it not to the Canonists and the Courtiers of Rome As Cyril of Jerusalem notes that the Sea where it stints in the flote makes in a similitude a Line which God hath set it that it should not pass So have my Adversaries set a Line to the Roman Sea hitherto it may go by the consent of the whole Church So then the members may appoint the Head what operations and how far it shall perform and the Head shall not be onely influxive upon them but they rather upon it This opinion will make Popes shie of Councils if he hath his power extended by their consent For they do not mean the consent of the whole Church to be of the confusaneous multitude do they if they do then the Church in this sense shall be the first subject of Ecclesiastical power Yea If they also mean it of the Church in a Council how is the Pope successor of St. Peter when the Pope must be limited by the Church St. Peter as they say was Prince of the Apostles immediately from Christ And surely according to this reckning Bellarmins distinction will come to naught who saies the power of Kings is not by divine right but by the consent of the people but the Popes power is for it comes not from the Church but Christ as in his 3. b. de verb. Dei cap. 9. And then he is not the Rock and foundation of the Church but the Church of him and so the spiritual Monarchy must be slighted How far is this from that Italian who presented a book to Paulus the fifth with this inscription PaULo V to Vice Deo out of which one picked the number of the beast 666. But therefore my Adversary goes at the Spanish rate very suspensively in omnem eventum as being disposed to a pause betwixt the affirmative and the negative and he saith Now though the Supreme Head of the Church be as infallible as St. Peter was and so on in a long speech Well but doth this affirm or is it a meer supposition which doth ponere nihil He hath carried the Pope up to the clouds and there he staies but let them come out of the clouds and tell us plainly whether we must take a cloud for Iuno Such irresolution doth not become infallibility He seems to make him as infallible as St. Peter because he should be Supreme Head of the Church and yet St. Peter was not Supreme Head of the Church if the rest of the Apostles be included in the term Church as members and yet he must not be as infallible as St. Peter because cases of difficulty must be referred to the Council It follows yet if he seeth this newly vented doctrine fit to be declared heresie if it be so or to be imbraced if it be fitting and proposed to all Christendome then is the true time of calling a General Council and not to let the people contend by allegations of Scripture We are now step by step soberly mounted to the Soveraign Authority of the Church in a Representative Ans 1. What needs all this trouble if he be as infallible as St. Peter and why do they say that St. Paul went to St. Peter to confirm his Doctrine by St. Peters Authority should there not have been a Council called then as well According to them St. Peters infallibility confirmed St. Pauls Doctrine the Pope according to them is Successour of St. Peter in his infallibility to all effects and purposes as Ruler of the Church therefore he may do it and frustra fit per plures also 2. Note we here that it is to be the true time of calling a Council upon debate of a point heretical which respects Articles of Faith but we have been often told by our Adversaries that we are to have an infallible Judge to decide all controversies emergent Now if there be not a Council to be called but for decision of Articles of Faith as to their's we have lesse need since he that is an Heretique is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Apostle speaks And therefore he needed not to foreclude the peoples contending in allegations of Scriptures for surely Scripture may be alleaged without contention and if it happens sapiens non curat de accidentalibus And so also the Council may contend in allegation of Scripture and therefore they should not alleage Scripture Yea also we may soberly contend that in articles of Faith there needs not be any other contention since they are more plainly delivered in Scripture than that we must stay for a General Council to be established in the belief of them Blessed be God we are better provided for in articles of Faith than to stand in such necessity of a General Council which when such will be and how we shall know it is such according to them we must know by another General Council and that by another and so in infinitum since we know nothing infallibly but by the infallible authority of the Church and that in a General Council We will then take that for our Law whereby the Council must Judge since the matters are plain which are great and about other things small the Judges will not meet Lex non curat de minimis Let Hiero conclude for himself from hence forward whatsoever Archimedes saith it must be believed But it seems it is a book case and example we have hereof by the practice of the Apostles in the 15. of the Acts Though the Apostles were all infallible in their doctrine yet they could not
true High Priest because he was accepted by the Jews 2. Without a true Pope the Church might erre and so erre in the choice of a true Pope and then we are never a whit the nearer And then Thirdly Christ was not the true High Priest because he was not accepted by the Jews but condemned And then again as well the Council might be infallible without a true High Priest as a General Council since without any Pope or Head thereof but the four General Councils they will say are infallible and yet we say there was no Pope then in their sense Therefore the Council of Arimnium which he speaks of here was not fallible upon that account namely because it was not confirmed by the Pope for the other Councils were not confirmed by a Pope neither there being then none And if the Council of Ariminum did themselves chuse a Pope then he was accepted by them and so he was the true Pope as before He saies then This true High Priest namely Christ erred not the true Head of the Church not erring the Church cannot be said to erre iterum Crispinus This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Was Christ an external Head in the policy of the Church If so my Adversary and the Disciplinarians might joyn Principles for their Government And upon this account the Pope should not be stiled onely the Vicar of Christ and Successor of St. Peter but also the Successor of Christ the Sea being void by Christs promotion 2. If Christ be the true Head of the Church then the Pope is the false Head unless the Pope and Christ be all one or let them distinguish that Christ is a true Head in one sense namely the vital and spiritual Head the Pope onely the Ministerial Head and if they thus distinguish then though the vital Head doth not erre the Ministerial Head may erre Thirdly Christ as the true Head of his Church hath relation to the Church invisible but we have now to do with the Church as visible and upon this consideration the promises which are made in Christ and by Christ to the Church as St. Math. 16. and elsewhere should not be made to the Church virtual or to the Church Representative but invisible unto which properly he hath relation as Head And thus we acknowledg the promises made to the Church against errour are true namely against errour damnative Fourthly If they closely intend this which is said in service to the Roman Church so farre that it cannot erre because Christ is the Head then what Christ doth the Pope must do and what the Pope doth Christ must do but surely Christ did whip the buyers and sellers out of the Temple so doth not the Pope do and Christ instituted his Supper in both kinds so doth not the Pope and then if what the Pope does the same Christ should be said to do Christ should contradict himself for by himself he instituted it in both kindes by the Pope in one and also Christ in Pope Liberius did subscribe against his own divinity Lastly there might have been another true Head Ministerial in the Church without prejudice to the former might there not If not farewell Pope and Monarchy If so then his answer is none that Christ was then the true Head of the Church for so neither Caiaphas nor any other should have been High Priest That of St. Athanasius was touched even now and it is good still if Councils be infallible since the reason why that of Ariminum should not be good is not good and therefore that might be as infallible with eight hundred Bishops as the Council of Nice with fewer since also according to my Adversary Christ is the true Head of his Church and therefore no matter whether there was any Ministerial Head or not to confirm it And as for exceptions against our English Translation again from some of our own we need say no more for we did not hold the Translation infallible As he said of a Christian that he is mundu◠mundandus cleare and yet to be cleansed so may it be said of the Translation it was good and yet might be mended and hath since since their exceptions But 2. If they will argue from imperfection in one place to a corruption in the whole it is a fallacy a dicto secundum quid but simply it will redound if they might so argue to the undoing of the infallibility of the Latin and purity too And then if he takes aim against our English by the Interpretation of that of Malachi or the Translation rather they bespeak a falsity in the charge for there was good reason by the connexion for that Reddition Here we have little but a rhapsody of repetitions of former grounds which being showed to be rotten he can solidly build nothing His first and principal ground here is that the Church cannot erre and this yet is the main question And therefore his compare betwixt the Priests declaring the Law of the Church and our Ministers declaring the Law of Scriptures by the Originals is not well grounded First Because that ground is not made good Secondly because we do not urge infallibility by the Ministers as they must And thirdly because though their Priests should infallibly conveigh the Doctrine of the Church yet the Doctrine of the Church may be fallible so is not Scripture in the Original And what he saith concerning most corrupted Translations hath been formerly answered in compare with their Latin which they pretend infallible and is not and therefore their Church is not infallible but we pretend not translations infallible though better then theirs is now That we are not assured of true Scripture and if so yet not of the true sense hath been answered as to things necessary and more assured then they by their Church That many necessary controversies are not conteined in Scripture hath been refelled and returned to them with use We have shewed that they have no reason to take away from the people the use of Scripture That Chaos of Corruptions in our English is more easily denied then proved and the recrimination to Latin is more easiely proved then denied And as for the taking of the law from the mouth of the Priest to be as secure as to take the Signification of a word in Scripture from the publique consent of all men they may know if they have no more for faith they have no faith Divine as the effect cannot exceed the cause so the assent cannot exceed the ground thereof Aqua tantum ascendit quantum descendit Their permission of Scripture is in that language which the people doth not understand and this is not then to permit them Scripture which is as he saies knowen to most and bred men in Learning And he hath no reason surely to speak of vulgar Translations for surely theirs is the vulgar Latin though Christned by the Trent Council and never a whit the better for that And I hope his
locall Praelats will not allow the use of Translations but to them whom they are secure of not to change their Religion which is as much much as to blinde them and then to give them leave to see Further use of Scripture is not an abuse unles the Antient Fathers exhorted the people in the reading of Scriptures to an abuse and he was much mistaken in the saying that we see the sad effects of it it is a fallacy of accident Our Ministers are as rightly ordained and canonically licenced to Preach as their Priests to say Masse and more too unless they could prove that office better And yet a simple contradiction is also better than a simple negative Upon our word the people may rely as well as their people upon the Priests and somewhat more upon the former considerations of an impossibility of Faith in the truth of their being Priests And yet our Ministers are not masters of their Faith but helpers of their joy as the Apostle saies of himself also the people do not simply rely upon them but believe by them And then he comes to the occasion of this debate betwixt us namely because that Noble Person carped at our blind obeying our Priests and believing them whereas all of our Religion could go to the fountain Ans Whether the words of that Noble Person were such as he expresseth them I cannot say but taking the Translation to be so far Scripture as that it agrees with the Original so far are they the Fountain not in language but insense And so they go to the Fountain oppositely to the Doctrine of the Church though not as oppositly to Translations And as for that which was said by that Noble Person of blind obeying is not here denied and we know that this blind obedience is commended by the Jesuite for the right and Christian obedience And their implicit Faith must be blind obedience upon two accounts First because they ought not to examin whether what the Priests say to them doth agree with the Doctrine of the Church and secondly they cannot examine it But he excepts against that Fountain but alas when that fountain which they conceive themselves to drink to their eternal health is so poisoned as I shewed in my last Ch. that millions of millions as your own Broughton saith run to hell flames by occasion of this corruption Good words He could not certainly say so unless he hath it from a Pope and Council And doth he take a passionate Hugh to be as credible with him as Cardinal Hugh And I think also the main thing for which Hugh Broughton was offended with our Translations was about the descent into Hell which by the Trent Council should seem not to be so necessary for they make no mention of it in their Creed And also if the sentence proceeds sufficiently upon Hughs words then their Latin is poysoned more as it should seem more by Isidor Clarius one of theirs And my Adversary might have remembred that we might as well slight Hugh Broughton in a singularity as he did Isidor Clarius And it seems the danger by Translations is not so great because he saies I may most truly say that far more perish by misunderstanding whilst they follow their Ministers and their own private judgement of discretion that which is truly Translated then perish by the corruption of that which is falsely Translated Ans This comes loosely from him also If it were obscure the Translation might miss if not how could they be in danger of perishing If they follow their Ministers or their own judgement without weighing the Scriptures they may erre as the Romanist does by blind obedience But if they compare the Doctrine of the Ministers with that of Scripture by their judgment of discretion as the Bereans did that which was spoken by St Paul and as he would have them compare the Doctrine of our Ministers with the Authority of their Church by their judgment of discretion they are in no such peril of damnation That which is not known without great difficulty may be unknown without great danger Otherwise we make God they may think an hard Master Thus they perish for not hearing that Church which their own Scripture bids them hear whereas in doing that which God bids there can be no danger of errour great or small Ans My Adversary is very importunate without new Arguments If he means that the Scripture bids us hear the Church universally as to Faith he begs the question If to hear as in point of trespass or so as not to contemn he fights with his own shadow as being ignorant of the Elench And so of the other clause if he means it so that God bids us absolutely do as the Church bids us there is the same fault in the discourse Better may we return it to them They perish because they will not hear the Scripture which the Scripture and the ancient Church bids them hear whereas in following Scripture there can be no danger of errour great or small and since also the Church can have no credible Authority but from the Scripture neither hath he proved the contrary whatsoever he saies and therefore he does well now to tell us that the Scripture bids us hear the Church He saies the doctrine of the Church is Gods Law Ans This is a kind of cryptical proposition I am sure Gods Law should be the doctrine of the Church but he means it for his use whatsoever the Church reacheth is Gods Law What is Gods Law in recto He speaks as boldly as if being but yet a private man he could not speak under infallibility So then we need not look any further for Gods Law and the Scripture then will not onely be insufficient for our direction to heaven as they say but not necessary which sometimes they will grant It will not be necessary neither as a rule as Bellarmin sometimes nor as a commonitory And we may wonder why amongst their Counsails they did not reckon this for one namely to use Scripture since upon this account we are not bound to it under peril of damnation but onely they will not allow it such perfection as to Counsails But then if the Church bids us not to read Scripture or bids us not to read Scripture it is not Gods Law and it is Gods Law but it is Gods Law that we should look into Scripture To the Law and to the Testimony Search the Scriptures saith Christ If the Church teacheth that we must worship Images or buy Images it must be Gods Law against Gods Law of the second Commandement If the Church bids us communicate under one kind it must be Christs Law against Christs Law And so God must contradict himself and Scripture must follow the sense of the Church as one of them is said to have said what a cause have they which hath need of so desperate propositions And private Priests are farr more likely to teach them Gods Law by
had been convenient that there had been no Scripture upon this consideration And how should they prove the Authority of the Church without Scripture Well but take his words in their ordinary sense and what kinde of argument will this be Even now when we have Scripture and Traditions therefore now Traditions are now as necessary or more then when there was no Scripture Nay they will seem to be less necessary when notwithstanding them we have more divisions How then shall these divisions be remedied It may be by more traditions What New traditions oppositum in apposito But in the next words he speaks out All divisions commonly caused by misinterpretation of the Scriptures to which inconvenience they were not subject before all Scripture was written And therefore in this respect there is now after the writing of the Scriptures a greater necessity then ever of Traditions Ans So then he hath now commented upon the former words and his sense is plain that had we not had Scripture we should have had less need of Traditions First we had thought the Learned men of their Church had devised Traditions not because we had Scripture but because Scripture was wanting in the matter of necessary doctrine And so he himself telles us presently after that since part of the Canon is lost we must say there is use of Traditions And yet now we have more need of Traditions because Scripture is written But it may be he will say there is more need of Traditions to clear the interpretations of Scripture Yea but then he should mean by Traditions Traditive interpretations of Scripture as they are called But are not these lost too For who is there can give us any account of them And as for other Traditions we are never a whit the better he hath told us before since notwithstanding we have them we have a perpetuall succession of horrible divisions opening still wider wider Let them remember that of Nâ—lus to accuse Scripture is to accuse God 2. Are the divisions necessary in points necessary If he means so it is flatly denied If in other points it is not to the question principal 3. A quatenus ad omne valet consequentia if we be bound to Tradition as such we are bound to all and yet all Traditions they have not kept 4. Traditions doe not lessen divisions about interpretation of Scripture for one division is whether Traditions have any ground in Scripture And he may know that he hath named Texts to this purpose and because there are differences about Traditions therefore by his argument we should not be ruled by them as indeed they do not order themselves by them They keep Tradition in the controversie for the use of the Church not in practice as he said Antiquitatem semper crepant novi indies vivunt and we must let goe the Scripture in controversie and practice for the use of Tradition and the Church they and their Fathers have troubled the waters of Scripture for the cheif Fisher Let them let their Traditions alone and they will see their discourse is a non causa Then he repeats importunately the uses of Traditions but not my refutation And he speaks of Traditions of such matter as we have in Scripture which is beside the mark we are about Traditions in their sense of that matter which is not in Scripture equally to be believed to Scripture which should prove the insufficiency of Scripture and the necessity of them This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore much he saies to this purpose is like the drift of snow which makes an heap but will not bear one up from sinking in it Yet I must note his wit in that he saies that God must purposely by a miracle have infringed the course of nature if the former Traditions of the Church should grow then to lose their sufficiency in order to the same effect when they were strengthened by so great an Authority as that of the sacred writers was How little in this is there of a sober soul As if the matter of Tradition was written by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost to confirm the authority of delivering it by orall Tradition Doth it not appear in Eccles History that the matter of the New Testament was written that it might be more certain and firm in the minds of men It seems then that the looser way by Tradition was not so sure and standing litera scripta manet Secondly If there be so great an Authority of the sacred writers surely we may make more use of what they wrote to confirm Traditions Adeone pudorem cum pudicitia perdiderunt as he said that the Authority of the sacred writers should be imployed as it were onely to serve Tradition Thirdly The Authority of the sacred Writers did rather confirm the truth of them than the use for why were they written if Traditions were necessary after they were written as such Therefore fourthly He concludes but sufficiency of them in order to the effect but this is not effectual to his purpose If he did conclude necessity of them after the writing this would be somewhat but then there would be more in the conclusion than is in the premises and yet surely all were nothing to the state of the question because we make no question of such Traditions Again he pleadeth losse of the Canon upon which he thinks Tradition should revive Ans That we have spoken of sufficiently before that the supposal doth not inferre insufficiency of the Canon and therefore doth not inferre necessity of Traditional matter beside what is written And also is there yet notwithstanding the losse of some part of Scripture enough remaining to confirm Traditions yes they will say Then God it seems hath taken more care for Traditions than Salvation there is enough for Traditions yet in Scripture not for Salvation Well but again there is enough in Scripture to confirm all Traditions is there not If there be then there is enough for Salvation or else there was not enough in Traditions Because they will say Scripture hath confirmed all Traditions to the Jew namely And then if there was enough to the Jew for Salvation in the Old Testament which was adaequate to Tradition then much more have we enough for Salvation by the New Testament and therefore is there no need of any Tradition beside the Canon Then he returns to an enarration of the use of Traditions even after writing which is of no use to them but to us because here he produceth several Texts for Traditions in the same notion as 2. Thes 2. Gal. 1.8 Tim. 2.2 2. and herein he prevaricates in his own cause For if these Texts be meant of such Traditions which were afterwards written in the matter of them they are so understood as we would have them to be understood and they are not pertinent to the question about Traditions beside Scripture in the matter of them Secondly Whereas he speaks that these
Texts confirm the certainty of Traditions we grant it namely of those Traditions which were afterwards written but how do these Texts confirm the certain necessity of those that are not written And therefore thirdly He is mightily disappointed if he conceives those Texts should bind us to stand upon Traditions now more than ever for the formality of Tradition was there sunk in the writing and the matter of Tradition was the same with that which was writtten in his own confession unless he drives the Texts Heterogeneously to his own words And he impingeth upon the same stone again What wise man would put â—ut one light costing him nothing because it will be shining of its own nature unless you will needs have iâ— hidden because he hath now another light but so that even with both those lights many of his houshold will still remain iâ— darkness Ans He supposeth a light added to a light It is well then that Scripture is assured to be one light but his Tradition should be compared to a light when there is no other light namely when the Scripture is defective Secondly If he thinks Tradition is a light costing us nothing he may be deceived for it will cost a great deal of Scrutiny since we cannot see it shining of its own nature infallibly And thirdly If some be still in darknese with both those lights then surely they may be more in darkness with but one and that is Tradition therefore they should allow the people the light of the Scripture since both too little as he saies to some But fourthly What if one light put out the other in the true state of the question namely Scripture Tradition superadded in matter And what wise man will light a straw candle in the Fathers expression when the Sun shines the Sun-light of Scripture puts out the straw-light of Traditions condemning those who teach for Doctrines Traditions of men which the Romanist does in some proportion And fifthly what wise man would have such a light which serves his turn best when it shines least for Traditions if we believe our Adversaries are a covered dish dainties to be kept private for those who are fit to receive them the more wise and perfect men which may teach them to others The mystery of Salvation that is made common by writing but the mystery of Tradition is put under a bushel The mystery of the Trinity is delivered in Scripture but the mystery of the Trent Traditions must not be familiarly known So then say they what they will or can we shall sooner find an extinguisher for the light of the rush candle than they for the light of the Sun But if you say that if Scripture had not been given us we should have had a more certain Tradition given us So he delivers my words which were not so but thus If Scripture had not been left to us we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us as the Gospel was before it was written Now some difference there is betwixt given us and left us for that which is left to us is intended for our constant use which that which is given doth not connotate So some Pontificians will say the Scripture was given upon particular occasion but was not left to the Church as a fixed universal rule But there is yet more betwixt us about my words we should have had Tradition more certainly conveighed to us so I said he reports me thus we should have had a more certain Tradition given unto us A more certain Tradition given and a Tradition more certainly conveighed are not altogether the same the former supposeth the matter of Tradition as not certain and this we can deny as to those times when there was no Scripture as written the other speaks de modo tradendi which comes closer to our question For we can perswade our selves that God who is graciously provident for his Church wherein he hath placed his Name would have taken care that if there had not been a certain direction in writing the matter of necessary Doctrine and practice should have been more certainly communicated to us So then he thrives very little by compare of the Christian Church with the Jewish although the Christian Church be more noble For first the compare must be of the Jewish with the whole Christian Church because the Jewish Church Proselyts being included therein namely Proselyts of the Covenant as they were distinguished was all the Church there was And secondly Because no part of the whole Church can compare with the Jewish Church as to priviledges and then by this reckoning how little of Nobility will fall to their share Thirdly As the Tradition which was it whereby the matter of Scripture was proposed was for the time necessary before the matter of Scripture was written so also must the Tradition of the Christian Church be considered as in relation to the time before which the matter of the New Testament was written therefore he should have pleaded if he would have it done patly that there was any Tradition of Faith after the Old Law was written beside what was written which was to be believed unto Salvation equally to what was written and then have drawn down a parallel Line of proportion of the same though he would have more nobility for the Christian Church Thirdly If the nobleness of a Church be antecedent to more certain Tradition as he thinks then how happened it that there was so little a time betwixt the preaching of the Gospel and the writing of it It seems then if God provides for Churches according to the nobleness of them that the better provision for the Church is by Scripture The Christian then hath a more certain way of Faith than by Tradition And as for means of securing Tradition in the Christian Church which he compares with the Jewish in he hath no cause to bragg For first they cannot say or prove that they have all Traditions in number formal and material Secondly They do not practice all How many are there which St. Basil speaks of in his Tract de Sp. Sanct. which they observe not Thirdly The safety of them is in the whole Church and yet forsooth every one must not know them Fourthly If so then have they reason to blush that they have been more careful to keep Tradition than Scripture and particularly of the Hebrew Copy of St. Matthew and is this for their credit Fifthly Are the Scriptures preserved uncorrupt or not If not how have they been faithful as before If so then why do their learned men obtrude the Authentiqueness of their Latin upon this account that when this Edition was made the Scriptures were pure and uncorrupted but corrupted since Again the Tradition of Christ's Primitive Church before the Scripture was written and sufficiently promulged was to be believed upon her sole Authority Ans If he takes that Tradition inclusively to the Apostles who preached that which they did write
differ in the point of infallible direction Secondly If the Pope be not infallible without a Council then is it not infallible in a Council What will they here say Is he infallible without a Council as the Jesuits say or with a Council onely If not without then not with My reason is this because without the infallibility of the Pope we are not sure of the legality of the Council For though we suppose an assistance of the Spirit of God to Councils yet can we not be assured whether to such a Council in particular this is yet a question because we cannot tell whether it be a right General Council or not not by certainty of Faith surely unless the Pope be infallible in determining this to be a right General Council Thirdly Take the former proposition of his He to whom the Church submitteth in calling the Council and whom the Church admitteth as her lawful Head so as to preside he is right Thus he in effect and terms most what and then we make an assumption to it This was in the four General Councils The Christian Emperour he did call them he did preside in them therefore where is his conclusion Fourthly General Councils are fallible though they do not erre It is possible that they may erre and therefore are they fallible Well but more The Trent Council did erre the Trent Council was a General Council according to them therefore the major is proved already they erred in the Latin Bible they erred in half Communion they erred in point of merit which is not spoken exclusively to more As for the 3. exception he refers me to Bellarmin lib. 2. de concil cap. 19. that although a Council without a Pope cannot define any article of Faith yet in time of Schism it can judge which is true Pope Ans first How could he say that the Church is so direct a way that fools could not erre as before when yet he will suppose such a time of Schism and Bellarmin too quando nescitur quis fit verus Papa when it is not known who is the true Pope Well then during the time of the Schism who shall determin emergent controversies Neither is the Council called and what a tedious debate amongst them may there be to determin who should be next to Christ and if the Council should be as long in calling and as long in being as the Trent Council was forty three years in both as some account how many might be damned in their direct way or else it was not so perillous for some controversies to be undetermined infallibly Yea but if so then why do they so much press a necessity of a living Judge for deciding all controversies According to the vehemency of their plea and the necessities of the Church the Living Judge should not only be alwaies infallible but this infallible Judge should be alwaies living But secondly During the time of the Schism how shall we do for the Calling of a true Council To this he saies for this the Prelats of the Church might and ought to meet upon their own authority and assemble themselves Ans Then the power of calling Councils is not absolutely in the Pope but in actu primo it is radicated in the Prelats though bound from the second act by use of their Church unless in falling Then a supream Ecclesiastick Authority is not by divine institution subjected in the Successour of St. Peter And then what becomes of their Monarchy It seems then that Fabrick is not built upon Gods ground because no practice can hold good against a divine institution And thus the Head of the Church must shake at least the Jesuits will shake their heads at this Doctrine If there be an absolute necessity of a true Pope to call Councils then that which he saies is not good if but of conveniency then we may end the controversie because either all controversies are not necessary to be ended or may possibly be ended without their Head of the Church In the next place he toucheth then upon my exception against infallibility quoad nos of General Councils by reason of doubtfulness of their lawfulness upon the calling of them since in the old time Emperours called them not Popes His answer now is Your Church which never had nor shall have General Councils is to seek in all things belonging to them our Church in every age since Constantine hath been visibly assembled in General Councils c. Urbem quam dicunt Romam Melibe putavi Stultus ego huic similem nostrae Therefore he does well to give us a kind check for our presumption of thinking our Church comparable with theirs First We do not arrogate to our selves a power of calling General Councils yet we may know what belongs to General Councils as well as another particular Church And time was when Anselm had by Urban some comparable respect in the honour of being called as Pope of the other world And secondly As for their Church to have been visibly assembled almost in every age since Constantines time if he understands it as called by the Roman Authority it is denied And therefore what makes this for them since their Church was not visibly assembled as comprehending the whole but pro rata parte as another particular Church In the Nicene Council their Church had no real superiority though it had a titular priority 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Nilus speaks because that was at first the Imperial City Thirdly How was their Church visibly assembled in the fifth General Council when their Head would not come to the Council upon the debate of the tria Capitula and yet the Council is to be accounted good without the Pope yea against him or else the number of Councils must fail What he saies about Emperours is inconsiderable It is out of Scripture evident that there is no divine institutitution by which either Emperours be assured to be still found in the world or that when they have that dignity they be by divine Institution invested with a power to call Councils Ans First We may then prove a negative out of Scripture by his first words and to be evident too which yet were not good if verbum non scriptum were good Secondly We by the same law prove a negative to Popes in the same tenour Thirdly As for Emperours we have more for them in the proportion of Kings for we have a promise for them that they should be nursing Fathers and Queens nursing mothers which surely was accomplished by the first Christian Emperour Yea the term of Kings was then common for Emperours Yea had not the Kings of the Jewish Church Divine Authority in matters of Relion Circa sacra They had not only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to defend it but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to rule it they were not only Protectours of the Church as they are called in the Trent histories but governors and by these were the foure Generall Councils called
doth now infallibly teach the Church in all definitions And then a second that it is his duty to do so Let them learn their duty not to tell God his duty Did the Holy Ghost do his duty when Cajaphas and the Assembly condemned Christ And why did not the Holy Ghost make eight hundred Bishops in Ariminum as infallible without a Pope as the forty Bishops in the Trent Council whereof some might be made Bishops not because they did not differ from the rest but that they might not differ in the Roman Faith though against the Catholique faith And if they put the difference in this compare upon a Pope in Trent Council none in Ariminum though that answer will not serve as before since Praelats have a also a power of calling Councils as my Adversary before in some cases why should not the Holy Ghost rather assist eight hundred Praelats without a Pope then forty with As to the eighth answer he confesseth the substance of it that for the first three hundred yeares there was no General Council and tells us the cause for persecution no Council could be gathered But this satisfieth not God is not wanting in necessaries nor abundant in superfluities as one of theirs saies If councils had been allwaies necessary he could have provided against persecutions or for a Council notwithstanding And why not in time of persecutions as well as in the times of the Apostles Were not those times of persecution Neither is that a sufficient reason because all this time the former doctrine of the Apostles remained so fresh and so notoriously the Tradition of the Church diffused and there remained also so universal a respect and obedience to the Chief Bishop of the Church Ans these three causes will not make one sound one For by the first he means the known doctrine of the Apostles as delivered in writing or not if so then why may not we by the same cause sufficiently be directed by the word written And as to the second if he joyns Tradition of the Church as notoriously diffused as a social mean of the direction it may be denied upon this account only here for that other Traditions of Heretiques were then mingled in the Church with pretense of coming from the Apostles And therefore the Traditions of the Church was notoriously not distinguished And as to the third it is notoriously false that then there was a chief Bishop in their sense in those times For how then could equal 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be appointed in the Nicene Council if the Bishop of Rome had been Chief before how could St. Cyprian have said that all the Apostles were equall pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis How could the African Council have then cut off appeals to Rome Then had there been no need of the feigning of a Canon to this purpose in the Nicene Council How could St. Ierom have said that the Bishops succeeded the Apostles in communi in his Epistle to Evagrious Neither was there such obedience then performed by them to the Praelats in all places as may appear by the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians where he speaks of great Schisms And also by Ignatius his earnest exhortations of submission to them Whence the Quartodecim ani although they opposed nothing clearely set down in Scripture were judged Heretikes for opposing the doctrin of the first Church made evidently known by fresh Tradition Ans First if they will believe their Alphonsus de castro they were not sententially declared Heretikes because they were excommunicated Indeed Victor would have excommunicated then fecisset nisi Irenaeus illum ob hoc redarguisset he would have done it if Irenaeus had not chid him for this By the way then was this also obedience to the chief Bishop to chide him So Alphons in his 12. b. de haer In verbo pascha Yea 2. They may know that Eusebius doth give an account of the Asian observation to come from as good Tradition as the the other And surely the Asian Church was therfore the western and therefore was it not the doctrin of the first Church Yea also by the way how was Tradition of the Church notoriously diffused when there was Tradition against Tradition And herein also did the Brittish Churches which Tertullian speakes of differ from the western following the Eastern Church 3. Heresie is some times largely taken and doth then respect Schism of proper name and so in a large sense it might by some be called Heresie although the matter of difference was no doctrin of faith Ex verbis male prolatis oritur Haeresis So Hereticks in a propriety of speech they could not be 14. Alphonsus doth distinguish here upon in the same place and saies they were accounted Hereticks not because they did simply observe it then sed quia ita esse necessario faciendum credebant And this then alters the case And he explains himself further because this did include a necessity of observeing Judaical ceremonies even after Christ's his coming And so then this was contrary to the word written And then this was not a Tradition 5. They here shew the pride of Rome to offer to cut off from her comunion all those who were of the other perswasion who were not few as may be seen in Eusebius's 5. B. 24.5 Ch. for a thing simply of free observation wherein difference makes no variance a◠Irenaeus sent word to their Victor ch 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the difference of a fast and so of a feast doth commend the agreement of faith He goes on now as the Church could want Councils for so many years so it could want Councils for the short space of schism Right But then so can it want Councils still and therefore God hath not bound us over to the Church for our absolute direction upon necessity of Salvation Councils are necessary to infallible direction so my Adversaries hold The Church for three hundred years and in time of a Schism can want Councils as my Adversary here so then there is no absolute necessity of their infallibility And indeed there was much need of Councils in that space of the first three hundred years in regard of Divisions as since and then if God provided sufficiently for his Church without them he can and will do so still And this is confirmed by my Adversary by these words of his for the neccessity of new declarations is not so frequent at least in any high degree of necessity calling for instant remedy and remedy of this nature only And he may goe on and say it not upon my opinion but for himself and ex animo that Scripture alone will remedy this necessity He needed not to put in you say And as to that which he saies that there remained many definitions oft former councils and Traditions of the Church which alone served Gods church these we have spoken to sufficiently before Either the Definitions were concluded out of principles
nothing If all the strength of Rome can sufficiently reinforce the former Texts against us for the Church universal and then for them reducant nos if they cannot redeant ad nos as the Father said N. 23. This Section is in good part made up of repetitions towards the reurging on their be half 1. Ep. to Tim. 3.15 How much Paper is taken up with petitions and repetitions petitions of the principle and repetitions of what was said before Upon this I distinguished of a double Pillar the Principal Scripture a subordinate one the Church And now he saies pleasantly this double dealing in distinguishing helpeth you not The Church must still be a true Pillar and ground of truth Ans Distinguishing is plain dealing double dealing makes confusion Therefore we distinguish again the Church may be a true Pillar and ground or establishment of truth ex officio and subordinately yet not infallible That which is infallible is such all that is such is not infallible Dic aliquid contra ut simus duo He should have contradicted or said nothing The people believed God and Moses saith the Scripture right But the copulative doth not alwaies equally reduplicate the act to diverse objects In the Proverbs it is said Fear God and the King yet the King is not to be feared equally with God So they believed God and Moses in the curt fashion of Hebrew speech But they did not believe Moses as they did God God for himself upon his own veracity Moses for God Now let them prove that God speaks by the Church as he spake by Moses and we have done God spake to Moses face to face Did he speak so to the Church He spake then to Moses immediatly doth he speak so to the Church He spake to and by Moses who was King in Iesuron Aaron was formally the High Priest Doth he speak so now to and by civil Magistrates If he does where are the priviledges of the Church which they vaunt of If not why do they urge that Text It is true Rex est mixta persona cum Sacerdote but this maxim is not for them Their maxim is inverted Sacerdos est mixta persona cum Rege Moses morally wrought miracles so does not now the Church If Xaries could indeed have wrought miracles in the Indies why did he corrupt the Gospel In short when they can prove that the Church speaks all they speak by Revelation from God as the Jews believed that what Moses spake he spake from God then they may apply that Text to God and the Church which is applied to God and Moses The sense of their believing Moses was that they believed what he said to be spoken from God this is now the question of the Church therefore they should not have compared Moses and the Church but Moses and an Apostle This had been more Symbolical but this would not have been serviceable Well then if they would have been contented with this that the Church should have been subordinate to Scripture the quarrel would soon be ended What then Would they have the Scripture subordinate to the Church Adieone pudorem cum pudicitia perdiderunt So he saies The Church was by St. Paul called the pillar and ground of truth without subordination to Scripture as then not written Ans Will they hold themselves to this that what is not said in Scripture in terms is not to be construed as the sense of the Scripture If they will then what will become of their points of difference as to Scripture If they will not then this distinction is not to be rejected upon that account because it is not said so there But secondly His reason because Scripture then was not written is to be examined If he understands it absolutely it is false Was not the Old Testament then written And if the Romanist fetcheth his Monarchy of the Church from the Anaology to the Jewish High Priest why should not the Old Scripture be sufficient to subordinate the Church And if the Scripture was then sufficient as St. Paul saies to make wise unto Salvation before the Canon was finished was it not able to bear the Churches dependance upon it And is it not as able now when the Canon is compleated As to the times of the Church before any part of Scripture was written we have several times spoken before Put it into a Syllogism thus That which God speaks we are bound to believe upon account of his veracity That which the Church speaks to us God speaks therefore Now as to the major whosoever denies it is interpretative an Atheist The assumption then is that we stick at though the Roman accounts us for this not Christians The times of the Church before any part of Scripture was written were chiefly those wherein that proposition was consented to and yet not by all that knew the doctrine of the Church Therefore those who then did believe had not only a Faith disposing them to believe that what God saies is true For this is said by Aristotle in effect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this is a proposition of reason that what God saies is true but they had a divine Faith habituating them to the belief that that which was spoken by the Church was truly communicated to the Church from God Now here the hinge turns whether their Faith terminated upon the Church as the subjectum quo or upon the matter delivered by the Church as the subjectum quod We deny the former because divine Faith cannot rise upon humane testimony therefore Faith could not be caused by such a testimony which is humane without a Revelation from God that what the Church did speak it did speak from God Therefore the church had it self then towards Faith as proposing the matter not as resolving the assurance And can we not then as well be now assured that what the Scripture doth propose is the Word of God as what the Church proposed then was the Word of God And so Faith must at length not only cause us to believe that what God saies is true but also to believe that God hath said this therefore He likes not then my reason for the subordination of the Church to Scripture not for the reason against which other reasons will soon be found Ans This will require a very good intention but thus he is pleased to put off my discourse Bellarmin proves his propositions by Scripture by reason by Fathers Therefore he makes his heads of proof and holds of Faith And another would say that my Adversaries were beaten out of all their holds He saies to my reason here against it other reasons will soon be found when they are found we shall find answers Let them tell me from whom the Church hath its authority They will say from Christ Well he is supposed the Author But where is the Instrument and Patent for our knowledge that Christ hath passed such a grant The Church saith it they will say
Church all he saies is nothing against so much use of it as I made For I do not argue so because there are such Ebraisms therefore this is to be so expounded we say it follows not as to an actual necessity of such an interpretation No but thus it will follow there are such Hebrew formes of prefacing therefore this may be so interpreted Now the possibility of such an exposition is sufficient to my purpose For possibility of the Contrary stops the mouth of infallibility If this or that be infallible it is not possible to be any other way but the sense may be otherwise therefore this is not the infallible sense so we agree with Dr. Taylor whom he quotes because the Doctor may deny the argumentation as quoad esse we intend it sufficiently quoad posse It may be otherwise expounded than they say therefore cannot we hereby infallibly know this infallibility of the Church Suppose the Church were infallible yet if we did not infallibly know so much we cannot make the Church our ground of Faith Nor could there be any consistence of their implicit Faith if they did not know infallibly that whatsoever the Church propounds is infallible And an exception against this interpretation is that it is new unheard of to all Antiquity and unto all men unto this age Ans This exception would have come better from some other since my adversary had no minde to answer me to some Authority of the Antient. It were worth the while to quit the Criticism upon condition they would hold to antiquity But whose saying was that Omnes Patres sic ego autem non sic And yet neither is this a sufficient answer unless the consent of the Fathers could make a conclusion to be of faith So then as the Florentine said of vertue that the shew of it is profitable but the practice not so also may it be said of the Italians that the shew of antiquity is of use to them but the thing not but also it will be too hard for every one of them to prove a negative neither were many of the Fathers Learned in the Hebrew tongue He goes on whether this infallibility be equall to that of the Apostles or not maketh not to our purpose Ans Surely infallibility never took any degrees with their Doctours It is not receptive of magis minus therefore if he asserts not an equall infallibility he asserts none less in infallibility is less then infallibility So then their Church now is not such as to rely upon equally to the Authority of the Apostles therefore it must be subordinate to Apostolical authority which indeed was in effect confessed before in that he granted that the Church was regula regulata And this is as much as the cause is worth He saies I note him in a Parenthesis for a French Catholicke for allowing infallibility to the Pope defining with a Council Ans No. He or his scribe is much mistaken I asked him whether he had a minde to the opinion of the French Catholick because he in one place spake of the infallible assistance of the Church without any mention of the Pope Now if he did on purpose leave out the Pope in his account of infallibility then he is like to be a French Catholick And although all Romane Catholicks allow infallibility to a Pope defining with a Council cumulative yet all Roman Catholicks do not allow infallibility to the Pope only then when he defines with a Council As some Catholicks do allow full Authority to a Council without a Pope so some Catholicks allow infallible Authority to a Pope without a Council And this is more then I needed to have said to him that sales in this paragraph so little to me Yet he will charge me with charging him with an opinion which brings him within perill of blasphemy His opinion was this God gives as much infallible assistance to the Church in a Council as he gave to him who did deliver his word in Scripture My reason was this for herein it appears that now there is no need of Scripture since God speaks as infallibly by his Church as in his word He denies the inference I maintain the charge more pressely thus He that inferres no need of Scripture comes within perill of blasphemie He that saies such words as before infers no need of Scripture Therefore To the major in effect he hath said nothing his discourse is bent against the matter of the minor and he would deny it by severall instances which come not up to the case in hand First because he speaks infallibly by the Church of the Law of nature for two thousand yeares And why more blasphemy now To this in the matter of it we have spoken before As applied here we shall answer to it now First he did not then speak infallibly by his Church if the termes by his Church be meant reduplicatively to whatsoever was said by his Church if it be understood thus that whatsoever truth was proposed by God was proposed by the Church it may be more easily granted In the former sense the reason were good if it were true in the latter it may be supposed true yet it is not sufficient to his use who urgeth that nothing is proposed by the Church but that which is true and from God Yea 2. it cannot be absolutly granted in the second sense if we take the Church to have spoken from God in any way of a Council for much truth of what was proposed came to some of them by way of prophecy 3. The termes God speak infallibly by his Church may relate more strictly to the Agent or to the Instrument God spake infallibly whatsoever he spake by them but God did not speak infallibly by them whatsoever they said Or thus the words are true hypothetically if God spake he spake infallibly by them for he cannot speak otherwise but that whatsoever they said was spoken to them infallibly by God is a question Yea 4. Will they think that there is as much reason for infallible speaking by the Church when the Scripture Canon is compleated as when there was none As to Gods speaking by Moses we have spoken to it lastly As to Gods speaking to some Gentiles by the Church that was not ordinary and therefore it fits not our case neither can they prove that the faith of the Gentiles was not wrought in them by the efficiencie of the spirit of God notwithstanding they had the object of their faith from the Church Neither is it now the same case of teaching us infallibly by the Church as at the time when the Apostles did write because the Christian Church was then to be settled upon the foundation of the Apostles as St. Paul speaks and now the building can stand upon that foundation therefore were they extraordinary officers and lasted but for a time And yet if they can prove that their church-Church-doctrine is no other then that which was
the Apostles was it not Then nothing hinders but that it may be communicated to every of the Popes successively which yet it may be he declines the affirmation of And if it be not communicated to every of the Preists how shall the people be secured from errour by them so as they cannot erre But if they do say infallible assistance is communicated to any immediately then may they see reason for what I said that infallible assistance is immediate or if all infallible assistance be not imediate let them shew another species of infallible assistance To me this argument is good Apostolical assistance was immediate infallible assistance is Apostolical therefore infallible assistance is immediate No question is made of the proposition Nor can they make any doubt of the assumption because they urge as much assistance to the Church now as is Apostolical Therefore had my Adversary reason to interpret me of such infallible assistance which needs no instructions for I know no infallible assistance that doth as appeares by the argument Neither doth his following Instance of the Apostolical Council in the fifteenth of the Acts evince the contrary Though their determinations were not immediately inspired in regard of time or of debate Yet since this debate was not to them necessary how can this make a new species of infallible assistance Likely therefore this Council was in this sort managed by them to be a precedent and example to other Councils which should not have infallible assistance to determin presently and prophetically as soon as the question is proposed And if those who have infallible assistance do use discourse this doth not conclude an infallible assistance which is not immediate He that can prove the creation of the world by principles of Scripture in way of Faith or in order to Faith may prove the same conclusion also by principles of reason in order to science But then it is said in the preface it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us Ans To this I say fine praejudicio melioris sententiae that these words do not cogently inferr an infallible assistance of proper name actuated for they may bear that account in respect to the discourse they made by the effects of the Holy Ghost and former declarations And this may appear by that of St. Paul 1. Cor. 17. vlt. she is happier if she so abide according to my judgment and I think also that I have the spirit of God This judgment was not given by infallible assistance because by no inspiration and yet also it doth refer to the spirit of God And according to this proportion might be said it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us and yet those conclusions might not proceed from the Holy Ghost by way of infallible assistance And so farr in other Councils the definitions may be said to be by the Holy Ghost as they are drawn out of principles of Scripture which the Holy Ghost did inspire the Pen-men of it in Yea 2. Since the meeting of them in that Council was but upon convenience in case of Scandal what such necessity was there for that infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost So then let them take it how they will either those determinations were not made by them who were infallible by an infallible assistance and then is not this instance to their purpose or if it was then are they to prove equall assistance to all General Councils otherwise extraordinaries make no species And I am sure the Trent Council hath not credited such assistance as Stapleton and Bellarmin would claim from the Apostolical Council to all General Councils N. 27. Here he would make up the breach which was made upon his strong hold for infallibility in Councils by that place of St. Athanasius as holding the consubstantiality of the Son of God to be the word of God upon the Authority of the Council This was slighted He would repair it but it will not stand That Text upon which the Nicene Council builded their determination is made good ch 2. num 4. In the judgment of the Council it did more then probably determin the Controversie And if he thinks otherwise he doth not believe the Council and therefore not their infallibility His discourse is nothing He cannot determin it Gods word with relation to a Text probable in Scripture therefore he doth it with relation to the infallibility of the Councils authority Well is here all then turne the tables He cannot determin it Gods will with relation to the infallibility of the Councils Authority therefor he did it with relation to the infallible Authority of Scripture Doth he say that the Council holdes it upon account of their Authority or of the Scripture then which is it more likely it should be held upon The Church or the Scripture But let them speake thus when the question is granted Another answer of mine he doth as good as confess that St. Athanasius did not hold it upon the Council because he held it before Here he distinguisheth indeed He held it so in order to himself who was convinced that his interpretation was conformable to the antient doctrin of the Church yet in order to others c. Ans He was not Pope was he And yet St. Basil speaks so highly of him as if he had spoken so of the Pope we should have heard of it but if he was not Pope what have we to do to the holding it in order to others He was quoted for his own judgment was he not Then this distinction is impertinent And besides if he was convinced that his interpretation was conformable to the antient doctrine of the Church he was convinced that their doctrine was conformable to the true sense of Scripture if not why should he say that the Council urged Scripture to the Arrians if he was then he held it before upon that account Then again he toucheth upon the Council of Ariminum saying that I contend that Council as well to be believed for it self as the Council of Nice and you think c. Ans what I spake by way of interrogation why not is not yet answered by him in the reason of it He wonders that I should urge this Council in way of compare to the contrary But this gives no satisfaction as to my reason that exceptions it seemes were not so availeable against the Council because St. Austin made no mention of them but referred the point betwixt them to Scripture This Council of Ariminum was not so esteemed as the rest but what then from whence did this disesteem proceed from the illegality it seems no for then St. Austin had had a plea against it without waving the Authority of the Nicene Council And surely St. Austin had a very mean esteem of the Authority even of the Nicene Council if having a just exception against the Council of Ariminum he would not pleade it and so bring in the Authority of the Nicene
This manner of speech might serve us against their infallibility but no speech serves infallibility but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And all those testimonies were given to the Iewes as ill as they were disposed Ans he seemes to mistake what I said formerly about indisposition to receive infallibility For I spoke of it in order to those who should receive the gift of it for the Church and he now seems to speake of it in order to the people But 2. Suppose there were as good a disposition the possibility hereof cannot conclude the same necessity of the same assistance and some of their men are named by some of ours for denying any such disposition towards such a measure of the spirit as formerly was given That the Scripture hath still the same certainty he saies categorically is apparently false speaking as you speake in order to assure us c. Ans All his reasons are invalid For as for the first that I confess some books of Scripture were formerly not acknowledged by all which now are received this is of no weight because it is sufficient to my discourse that they have still the same certainty from the time of their general reception And 2. They have in themselves allwaies the same credibility as well as his Traditions as he hath noted before And that many and a good many books of Scripture are quite lost is first in those termes at least a supposition Whether any be lost is yet work for Tishbi specially whether many much more whether a good many but it is obvious to a Romanist that denies the Scripture to be sufficient to find it imperfect in the matter In ingenuity he should have said nothing herein lest he should be interpreted for his own ends As the Socinian who denies Christs satisfaction to prove his opinion denies Christ's Divinity that so the satisfaction should not be sufficient so the Romanist lest the Scripture should be thought to be a sufficient rule saies a good part of it is lost Thus with their honesty they have lost their modesty Secondly let them again consider how much prejudice comes to their Church which they say is the depositary of Christian Doctrine upon the loss of a good many books of Scripture Thirdly yet dato non concesso suppose so yet that which doth remain is surely as sufficient as the old Scripture without all the new Fourthly my words do not engage me in this debate because they are of a capacity to be understood of that Scripture which doth remain Fifthly If any be lost me thinks as the Sibills books the rest should bear a better price And as to his other exceptions about the sense of Scripture about the Sacrament of the Eucharist or of Baptism whether to Infants or to be a Priest or a Bishop was to have power to sacrifice or absolve or not we say first that we have said enough already And we say that we need not say any more in these points till they make good these postulates First whether the exact knowledge of these points be necessary to Salvation Secondly whether if not they can yet prove an infallible Judge in all points of controversie appointed to us by God And as to the last they are first to prove a real sacrifice in the time of the Gospel otherwise there will be no object for a special act of a Priest as such And absolution simply we deny not their absolution to be necessary to salvation and that it can make attrition to be as good as contrition are tasks for them to prove who affirm them And as for that he saies that then they had the Apostles themselves or the known Disciples of the Apostles to tell them the meaning of those words He does not well consider what he saies if they gave the sense of those places which are obscure where are these interpretations why have we not a tradition of them if not they say nothing if so they must derogate from the Church's fidelity because it hath justly communicated and handed to us traditions of other matters then are written and not the sense of those Texts which are written 2. We are yet entirely able to hold the buckler in the defence of our position that there is no such need of an infallible exposition of those Texts which contain points necessary for faith or practice The water where the lambe might wade was clear enough then and had been yet clear enough had not the great Fisher troubled the waters for better fishing If the point of the diall be not fixed they may vary the shadow but the sun keeps it regular motion So if their gnomon be loose they may make the time to go for them but the sun of righteousnes Jesus Christ the same yesterday and to day and for ever as the author to the Hebrews speaks doth in an uniforme and regular course shine in the Scripture and the doctrine of Christ by the twelve Apostles is equally set for all times only the Roman makes the variation who would have the Scripture follow the Church and not the Church the Scripture We need not then yet their Oedipus who hath a foot so great that he must wear a slipper The following words in this section are somewhat cloudy and they do need a clue to shew us their right connexion His drift seems in them to be this to make me destroy my self by two positions first that the Church is secure from damnative errour though not from all simple errour the second this Heresie consisted in opposition to clear Scripture Ans One would have thought that a bad conclusion could not lawfully be begotten of these two positions since specially the second is such as was antiently held by those who do understand distinctly points of divinity And also I had thought once that he had granted the former though now pro re naâ—a he doth think otherwise I am sure he had more reason to stand to it then to abide the perill of the negative Well but what from hence Whence all those must needs be Hereticks who opposed clear Scripture Therefore all those who hold those prime points in which you and we differ with us against you were hereticks for they held these points which you say are against clear Scripture Ans The Church is considerable in the quantity of it so it is universal or particular it is considerable in the quality invisible or visible the Church invisible is distributively secure from all damnative errour the universal visible may be secure from all damnative errour This we say still But by what engine is this drawen into his conclusion which he saies should proceed partly from this position But 2. What if we grant all that those who have been with them against us in the points of difference were Hereticks it is but like for like for they familiarly give us no other name then Hereticks And I think we shall do very few Learned and sober men any harme
Apostasie or Heresie or nothing it cannot fall but into errour it may fall To be sure this is the surest way unles they had beter arguments against every errour whatsoever or better answers for the arguments against them Nevertheless we must attend his Syllogism all this time all the visible guides or Praelats of the Church were lead and did leade into opinions contrary to the texts of your Church but all this time the spirit of truth did abide with them guiding them into all truth therefore the opinions contrary to your Church were true and not errours Well not to trouble them as to strictnes of forme To the proposition we can say that if they intend it of all the times from the Apostles we utterly deny it if they mean it of the times after the first six hundred yeares of the Church then we grant the proposition but utterly deny the assumption they were not guided by the spirit into such a Latin Edition into halfe communion And this denies his proof that those opinions were true because they were led into them by the Holy Spirit This is denied and is the question And it is more easily said that the Holy Spirit was with us by common assistance unto our opinions then with them by infallible assistance unto their opinions If we are to Judge of their assistance by the effects we had need of infallible assistance if it were convenient for the discourse to conclude for them but I am sure we have no need of infallible assistance to conclude against them Neither is it any boot to them that the Spirit leads all into truth for this may be limited to saving truth And this is not sufficient for them who must have absolute infallibility or none And then all may be limited as that proposition God will have all men to be saved is limited by Aquinas out of St. Austin by the like such a School-Master teacheth all in the Town whereof the sense is this not that he teacheth every own simply but all that are taught are taught by him So the Spirit all leads that are led but all simply are not led The limitation then in regard of the object of the Person or in regard of the object of the thing cuts off all their provision from hence And when we have sufficiently refuted their points of difference we have no need to say any thing that the Holy Spirit should teach contradictions if he were with them and us too for first infallible assistance is asserted to neither but denied and common assistance doth not exclude all errour and then 2. The Holy Spirit was not with them infallibly by the effect for since the same Spirit doth not teach contradictions he did not infallibly teach them that which is oposite to Scripture which he did teach That which followes in compare of the visibility of their Teachers with ours or any other Churches is but a meer flourish Shew me a succession in all ages of the Guides and lawfull Pastours of any Church holding your Tenets in points differing from ours Ans Succession de se is like number of no value Therefore they must prove their doctrine to be right otherwise it will be a succession of errour for as he said Consuetudo sine veritate est vetustas erroris 2. It is accidentall to a true particular Church to have succession and the Church at first was true antecedently to the succession and so the former times must never have been certain of their being right because a Persecution might afterwards have interrupted their succession 3. The Heretickes bragged of their sucession too therefore this is no proper special distinctive argument 4. Where is their succession of universal Bishops for the first six hundred yeares Then where is their Church Then either let them not give or take that argument 5. Our opinions to them are negative then they are to shew a positive succession in the doctrin of those points which they can never do unless by their infallibility post-nate antiquity should be as good as Primitive For as for the Fathers of the purest times tam sunt omnes nostri quam D. Augustinus I am sure we may better say so then Campian 6. We can shew our doctrine by Scripture let them shew theirs without it And whatsoever is according to Scripture is true this they deny not our doctrine is yet made good to be according to Scripture therefore the Charter of our points we have the Records of in Scripture and this way is good enough for us which is a posteriori And yet also we can tell them that if it had not been for their cruelty and domination we might better have returned them that which St. Austin said to the Donatists vos tam pauci tam novi tam turbulenti And God hath left us in all ages of greeks and others who have given us occasion to say we hold nothing in the points of difference but was held before Therefore this argument doth not succeed so that they must still labour to find a reason why our doctrine should not be as good as theirs N. 31. The sense of this Section we have had before And it falls into such a Syllogism whatsoever was Gods end in giving of Pastours is allwaies compassed That the Church should be without errour and should not be as Chidren wavering and carried about with every wind of doctrine was Gods end Ephes 4.12 Ans Whatsoever was Gods end is allwaies compassed so farr as it was his end where the effect depends not also upon morall causes take it so and we grant the major and deny the minor it was not Gods end that the Church should be without all errour whatsoever and the effect doth depend upon moral causes which may hinder the success The end of the Sacraments in the time of the Gospel they will say was to conferr grace ex opere operato yet they say they have not that effect Ponentibus obicem Or thus whatsoever is Gods end in his will of purpose that shall surely be compassed but what is his end in the will of sign is not allwaies compassed take it then in the latter sense so I deny the major take it in the former sense so I deny his minor For this would be more unreasonable by their doctrine for if God should work omnipotently to secure men from errour by meanes how should the obedience of faith be brought under freedome of will 2. This respects also particular Churches and therefore will not serve their turne who though they make but a particular Church yet are wont to challenge the privileges of the universal 3. This Text speakes nothing of the power of Iurisdiction but of the power of order now the duty of our obedience beats respect formally to Authority and Iurisdiction or do they like some of Geneva divide Pastours and Teachers And then do they think that the ordinary Pastour is here principally aimed at in their extraordinary
sense 4. The end of Pastours then was the end of Pastours now to be preserved by infallibility of Pastours then was not the end of Pastours then therefore not now The major is true by them because they apply those words to these times of the Church the minor is also true by them because there was not by their own confession Councils held for the first three hundred yeares The assistance therefore is not such as preserves from all errour And lastly if we were to be preserved from errour by the unanimous doctrine of those Doctours and Pastours we should never be secured from errour unless in those points wherein we agree N. 32. In this number he brings Es 59.20.1 Compared with the 11. ch to the Rom. 26. ver Ans These Texts neither disjunctively nor conjunctively are sufficient for his intendment That of Esay is plainly intended for the last conversion of the Jew which is not like to be made by Roman meanes as Sr. Edwin Sandys notes in his Survey of the westerne Churches And as for those wordes my words which I have put into thy mouth are free from errour in all points great and small yes we grant it This doth not contradict us but they are to prove that whatsoever they say God puts into their mouth Again it respects the Church as invisible and that conceit of his that it cannot be so taken because it speaks of the words not departing out of the mouth is not solid for the use of the mouth may be there for confession of the faith as Rom. 10.10 with the mouth confession is made to God Now this respects not the visible Church as teaching but the invisible as expressing the faith of the heart by the confession of the mouth But he again Gods spirit or word is not in a mouâ—h teaching errour Ans This is a Sophism it is true in sensu composito and as teaching errour but it is not true in sensu diviso Gods spirit may be in one at one time teaching truth in another time not teaching or teaching not truth He may be in some directing sufficiently to salvation not sufficiently against all errour not that the Spirit of God is in any teaching errour operatively for whatsoever it is he is operative to in point of beliefe is truth but in whom he may be sometimes as teaching truth he is sometimes not when they teach errour For this si yet to be proved by them that whatsoever is taught in the Church is suggested and dictated by the Spirit Afterwards he taxeth me for taxing any of coming near to blasphemy for saying God did speak to us and teach us by his Church which he saies here is refuted my words shall not depart out of thy mouth Ans I said not so That which I said I have answered upon the place I do not not deny absolutly that God speakes by his Church but I deny that he speaks now by his Church absolutely God may speak by his Church that which is infallible and yet not speak by his Church now infallibly That which is infallible in the principles of Scripture not infallibly in the manner of deduction If he did speak allwaies and allwaies infallibly there were no more to be said until that be proved we say much is supposed N. 33. If it were lawfull I might smile at his discourse in this number out of the next ch in Esay and the next to that For these chapters do plainly regard the Church as invisible in order to salvation which is properly applied to the Church as such and this is more then truth for it is possible for a man not to have any errrour and yet not to come to Salvation and it is I hope possible for a man to come to Salvation and yet to have some errours But that this should be said of the Roman Church and that that should teach all Nations I say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Was not the Church of Ierusalem and the Church of Antioch before them Nay it will not be easily proved by them that they were Christians in a formed Church before us We may as well say that the multitude of the Isles shall be glad thereof and that all Nations and Kingdomes which shall not serve thee shall perish should be meant of the Church of Rome is as likely as that the Bishop of Rome should be Emperour of the world as they pretend him Monarch of the Church It was never true surely but then when the Emperours held the Popes stirrup and the Duke was throwen under the Table Or it was then true when the Pope was the Sun and Emperour the Moon Or it shall then be true when the Sun riseth in the west But it should not be true of Rome me thinks because it is said the dayes of thy mourning shall be ended And surely they have been since the prophecy sometimes in mourning and at least shall be by their own acknowledgment in the time of Anti-Christ And that this should be meant of the Church as visible because it is said thou shalt be called Sought out is a slight ratiocination Rather the contrary because God seeks it out therefore it is not visible Because it is called Hephtziba my delight is in her therefore visible Yea rather the contrary for Gods delight is with the Church invisible because when his delight is with the Church visible it is in order to the Church invisible Because the land shall be called Beulah Ch. 62 ver 4 therefore it should be the Church visible rather the contrary for the real union which is mystical of Christ with his Church is to be understood of the Church invisible And that she should be to Gods comfort namely the visible and the Roman Church rather the contrary she is certainly less to his comfort because she saies so These promises are made primarily to the Church as invisible which should be gathered cheifely out of the Gentiles in general therefore let them again remember that of St. Ierom in his Epistle to Evagrius Orbis maior est Urbe But he helpeth us with an argument If this Church should at any time fall to teach errour Nations should do well to further their Salvation by forsaking her erring as the Protestants say they did This we take for the maior and we assume but this Church hath erred as hath been sufficiently shewed in the discourse of others and competently in this therefore are we justified by my adversaries And amongst the errours quod loquitur inde est that she cannot erre N. 34. In this he obtrudes again that of Dan. 2.44 And they must be meant he thinks of the Church of the Church visible of the visible Roman Church certaintly it was well said by the Poet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we may go near to English thus modesty is unprofitable to him that beggs the question That it is meant of the Kingdome of Christ in his Church we
deny not but that it is meant of the visible Roman we flatly deny and we use for proof his own principle that Kingdome which shall beat in pieces and consume all those Idolatrous Kingdomes and shall stand for ever is the Kingdome meant there So then But the Roman Church is not that Kingdome which shall do so therefore that is not it which is meant there The minor is proved First they are not agreed amongst themselves whether the Church be a Kingdome And if they hold it so they hold it erroneously or else the antient Church erred for they looked for a Church in the Common-wealth not for a Common-wealth in the Church as he said and then sure it did not stand for ever in the quality of a Kingdom 2. If they take it in the letter then it hath temporal dominion directly which I think they will not say since every one of them as before is not perswaded to hold a temporal dominion indirectly and in ordine ad Spiritualia If they do not take it in the letter then it is meant of the mystical Kingdome and this properly respects the Church invisible 3. Have they broken down all Idolatrous Kingdomes have they broken down the Turke and Persian Yea if they be a kingdome there is one Idolatrous Kingdome more which is not broken down and that is theirs Therefore are they bound by this argument to break down all their Idolls But they hate Idols as Cyril of â—â—â—â—salem said Anti-Christ should do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Anti-Christ will hate Idols that he may fit in the Temple of God so they break down all other Idolatrous Kingdomes thâ—t theirs may stand alone And 5. Upon this account we should have had better measure from them because I do not read that they have charged us with Idolatry And yet they have endeavored to break us down as much or more then any others Again it is meant of such a Church as hath not falne into Heresie Yea then we assume the Church of Rome hath falne into Heresie by Liberius by Vigiliuâ— as before Therefore the Roman Church is not it which it is meant of Again that Church which denies the Catholick Church as such is heretical Their Church denies the Catholick Church as such for they restrain the Catholick Church to the Roman by annexing the Roman to the Catholick The proposition is good because to deny the Catholick Church as such is to deny an Article of the Apostles Creed Therefore to check their usurpation the African Council cut off appeals to Rome thus then it is not Daniels Kingdome but a tyranny which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Politicks say Again If the Church should have universally fallen into uncertainty of true belief it should no longer have been the standing kingdome of Christ which shall stand for ever We assume but their Church must fall into uncertainties of true belief as we have shewed therefore their Church is not it and because there is uncertainty therefore they have no divine faith as he concludes Again their Church is not spread over the world in the quality of a Kingdome therefore their Church is not that kingdome How many parts of the world are there wherein they cannot exercise a visible jurisdiction nor do they break all Idolatrous kingdomes 〈◊〉 their visible Preachers What they break rather by the sword than by the word by the mouth of the sword not by the sword of the spirit Their breaking is indeed the right reading of the second Psalm thou shalt break them with a rod of iron which Bellarmin would construe to be feeding in the original mistaking the root or deceiving his Reader Yet if the Roman Church be not this Church find me out a visible Church Ans First suppose we could not yet this were no argument for infallibility it might make somewhat towards probability if the supposition were first proved that there must be such a Church alwaies in a flourishing visibility Secondly we take it yet for the Church as invisible and therefore his demand is unreasonable Thirdly their Church had not in doctrine and discipline that visibility in the first ages of the Church and therefore there was a Church which had the priviledges of the Church visible and yet not theirs but he tells us we shall have more of this in its place So then this is but a prelusory weapon N. 35. Here again he comes upon me for clear texts to prove the controversie about the infallibility of the Church to be decided by Scripture Ans This hath been abundantly spoken to before In respect to what he saies now that I must bring clearer Texts of Scripture to prove the fallibility of the Church then he to prove the infallibility we add that if he understands by clearer Texts as by reasonable consequence and deduction it is done if he understands them expressely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in termes he speaks unreasonably because he hath brought none such and therefore he cannot look for clearer because comparation is in eodem genere So that this is not much more then a cavil For if the Scripture be sufficiently furnished with necessary direction why should it be thought defective in not determining in termes that controversie which is neâ—dless iâ— that be otherwise sufficient And as for the Item he gives me that the Texts I bring must be for the Church not for the Synagogue for he saies all his Texts speak of that not of the Synagogue I am very well contented with this law All that I have produced looks that way but his have not For besides those Texts which he produced out of the Old Testament which in the letter beare respect to the Jew he urgeth that Text of Christ dic Ecclesiae which by the termes hath more respect to the Synagogue then any which I formerly made use of And you must bring Texts and not discourses or else you decide not the Controversie by the sentence of the Iudge to which only you appeale Ans This compliance with the Anabaptist requites their Freindship Is not that Scripture which is plainely deduced out of Scripture As the conclusion is potentially contained in the principles so that which is in principles of Scripture is contained in Scripture So our Saviours you erre not knowing the Scriptures then proves the resurrection by that which is said I am the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Iacob so then Christ proved the resurrection not by the Text in the termes affirming it but by the Text consequently as deducing it 2. they do not consider how little they have in Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for St. Peters successour for halfe communion merit of works the Sacrifice of the Masse and some others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where are they read in Scripture 3. They would have Religion with reason and prudential motives would they not Then they cannot dis-accept discourses from Scripture 4. I do
not deny to be judged by reasoning out of Scripture no nor by antiquity neither though it be not an argument 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but they have more need to bragg of them because they are not theirs 5. I do not appeal to Scripture as a formal Judge but as to the law by which all Judgment is to be made And again as the Philosopher those the best lawes which leave least to the Judge All things then considered he hath reason to quit the field unless he hath a minde to encamp against the truth And if they have so much for them in Scripture and in â—â—sert words as here he cracks surely those Romanists who have spoken of Scripture so diminutively have not been so wise as they might have been So then this Paragraph we may end with this account the Socinian is supposed to plead reason against Scripture and the Church The Papist pleads the Church without reason or the Scripture The Protestant pleads Scripture with reason and the Church Catholick N. 36. This concerns the reading of a place in St. Austin De utilitate credendi which he quoted about the authority of the Church thus velut gradu certo innitentes I found it in a Froben Edition otherwise namely thus velut gradu incerto nitentes He saies it is in an antienter Froben as he reads it And besides he thinks the scope might lead me to his reading Ans The scope directs us to think the authority of the Church to be but as moving not as determining Faith as I have shewed upon another place of St. Austin which he replies nothing to Moved we are by that authority as an uncertain step to God by whom we are assured not to God as the object of worship but to God as the author of our faith And as for his objection that it is ridiculous to be helped to certain truth by authority uncertain it is not of much weight For although uncertainty formal is not helpful unto truth yet that which is uncertain for us to rely upon may be helpfull As the Catholick Moderator observes of the Huguenot in point of justification that he is somewhat nice because he will not lay hold upon such a bough which peradventure might save him yet is he not to be blamed because he doth rely upon the righteousnes of Christ which is a certain bough and will surely save him so it may be we are thought too scrupulous because we will not leane and rest our faith upon the authority of the Church yet are we not to be blamed because we rest it upon God Yet may we then rely upon a bough uncertain till we come to a ground more certain The voice of the woman of Samaria was not certain yet the people were moved to come to Christ by what she said but afterwards they found better satisfaction from himself and then gave an account of their faith not by her voice but because they had seen him And as for miracles which were spoken of to be part of St. Austin's authority he thinks they were no unassured step it is easily answered that however this doth derogate from the application of that Text to the authority onely of the Church since the authority he speaks of is not onely of the Church But Secondly miracles when they are received are an argument to confirm the truth but miracles are not to us an assured step because we are not certain of them to be true Since we hear in Scripture of lying wonders 2 Thes 2.9 10. So that the doctrine rather proves the miracle than the miracle the doctrine The doctrine is to be believed without a miracle but the miracle is not to be believed when the doctrine is false as Deut. 13. v. 1 2 3 4 5. But then as to the reading of that place in St. Austin somewhat more may be said It is true that in an edition of Ba sil 529. it is Certo but yet there is some marke with it to note a Criticism in a various lection In two other editions it is gradu incerto But also we except against the Latin in the grammer of it if it be read his way for where will they finde the verbe innitor to govern an ablative Nitor doth but innitor doth not And in reading Stapleton's relections I finde he useth innitor with a Dative Therefore may it be probable that our reading is the right and that the in changed its place and in stead of gradu incerto nitentâ—â— it was made gradu certo innitentes N. 37. In this he resumes the speech upon the authority of the Devil when he saies any thing conformable to Scripture To this I said more then was necessary Another would have sent it back to the place from whence it came But that which I said liberally he exagitates disingenuously I answered first that we are forbidden to consult with the Devil but are injoyned to consult with the Church To this he rejoyns this hinders not his being conformable as long as he speaketh conformably to Scripture Repl. This was proposed by him to presse us to the use of the Church therefore that which was said by me properly made a difference betwixt them because we are to take direction from one not from the other even for those things which we know he knowes most certainly Therefore though there be no difference in the matter of truth as to both yet there is as to the immediate Authour And I granted to them ever that the Church to be consulted with ever is the Church as visible Yet doth it not from hence follow I hope that it should be allwaies so visible as that we can consult with it The visible Church is ever to be consulted with but this visible Church is not ever so visible visible at sometimes not so visible at all times For there was not allwaies in the Church a Pope and Council and if a Pope not a Council by their own confession And in such cases they have said before that the Church must content it self with former determinations And though that which is infallible may be orderly consulted with yet not all that is to be consulted with is not surely infallible Every Priest is not infallible I think they will say and yet is to be consulted My Second answer is of the same kind and that which he saies would be of some weight if we granted not such use to be made of the Church as thereby to think well of that which is proposed but the certainty of faith is cui non potest subesse falsum this is not to be given to the Church simply As for the Third answer we say easily there is no comparative in negatives neither is the one nor the other infallible though I am more moved by the one whom we have reason to respect the Church than the other whom we have reason to suspect So then that which is apprehended true is considerable
be imbrac'd with as infallible an assent as the doctrine of the Prophets and Apost Yea there have bin many miracles wrought to testifie many very many of those points in particular in which we differ frō you As you may see shew'd by Brierly only by looking in his Index 5. miracles but see him particularly T. 2. C. 3 Tr. S. 7. Subdivis And Tr. 1. S. 5. There you shall see how solidly grounded these Miracles are against which you can object nothing which is not objected with equal probabilitie by Heathens against the Miracles of the Prophets and by Jewes against those of the Apostles Tell me then if these two motives though there be yet many others be not as powerful inducements to move us to acknowledge that God hath given his Church infallible authoritie to teach us faithfully which she received from him as were those motives for which the Jewes did prudently believe that the Scripture given them by David by Salomon by Nahum by Amos and others were written with infallible authoritie by them having Commission from God to write what they did write We then believe the Church to have such a Commission with as good security as they acknowledged this Commission in those Scripture writers Whereas the ground upon which you believe Scripture is thought to be foolish and Chimerical by some of your best Writers 34. Yet to shew further how unsecurely the greater part of your Religion did ground their faith I did add this argument that the true Original Scriptures were written in languages not knowne to one among ten thousand if we speake of a perfect knowledge Others must trust the Translations of private men and believe them rather then the Translations used by the Church in general Councils Is it not cleere that the Authority of such Translations is far greater and far more to be judged to agree with the true Original then any of your private Mens Translations You your selfe confesse that Translations are only so far Gods word as they agree with the originals whence I infer that no body in your opinion can believe any point upon the authority of any Translations until he be assured that such a point agreeth with the true Hebrew or true Greek Original How disappointed then be most of your Religion especially your women who so fiercely fly upon us for believing the Church whilest they themselves must either believe nothing for they cannot believe any thing upon the credit of the English Translation until they know how exactly it agreeth with the true Greek or true Hebrew Original which is wholy impossible for them or else they must merely take upon trust the most fallible Translations for the infallible Original and trust rather in this most important point the learning and fair dealing of those private Ministers deeply interessed in this cause then trust the gratest authority upon earth which is a general Council having so strong promise of the assistance of the Holy Ghost I intreat you here to see Chapter 4. Numb 9. 35. Again I pray tell me how you learned Ministers who have so full knowledge of these languages as to Translate and upon your own knowledge to judge of true Translations made by others of you it is that I ask how you come to know and know so sufficiently as to ground an infallible assent in your selves and others when your Translations agree with the true Original For you have now confessed that Translations are only so far Gods word as they agree with the Originals And you must mean the true Originals or else you say nothing for agreeing with false or doubtful Originals will not make them Gods undoubted Word Tell me I say it again and again how do you know which be the true and undoubtedly true Originals and upon what secure ground do you know it The true Originals be either Hebrew or Greek As for the Hebrew all must know that the ancient Hebrew Copies were all written without points that is in full substance without Vowels Now they be the Vowels which make or marre the word and sense for a Vowell addeth the soul and the sound to the consonants and maketh them signify most different things For example for a Ball write only b ll to which consonants if you adde an a it is Ball adde an e it is Bell adde an u and it is a Bull So that great confusion must needs follow if the true points that is the true Vowells were not put to the same Consonants Well now again all must know that a good while after the time of Christ and his Apostles the Jewish Rabbies under pretence of avoyding the mistakes which might happen in the lesse skilfull in the Hebrew tongue which then was almost worn out did take the old Hebrew Testament and put the points that is the Vowels unto it so that the old Testament we now use came from these Jewish hands Tell me then how know you infallibly whither these perfidious Jewes had skill and honesty enough to deliver to us their Copies with the true points and Vowells and yet all depends on this The consonants alone will not assure us in these unskilful and so remote ages For the least change in appoint maketh most contrary things to be all one for no Man can tell especially infallibly whether these words an Angel had a b ll in his hand should be read thus an Angel had a Ball in his hand or a Bell or a Bill or a Bull. Put a false Vowel and it is all one To tast cheese and to tost cheese all one to be fatt and to be fitt to increase in Grace and to increase in Grece all one to eat a bitter fig and to eat a better fig. A pot ful of butter and a Pit ful of Batter will be the same Hence you see the small infallibility you have of the possessing the true undoubted Originall Hebrew old Testament As for the new testament Saint Mathewes Gospel was Originally written in Hebrew and that Originall is quite lost Now the other Greek Originalls which we have have a stupendious Variety He who found the word Infallible so unfortunate to him which you obiect to me telleth of his own knowledge a story most unfortunate to you and yours which I have also h eapd by an other way His words are these In my hearing Bishop Usher professed that whereas he had of many yeares before a desire to publish the Testament in Greek with Various Lections and Annotations and for that purpose had used great diligence and spent much money to furnish himself with Manuscripts yet in conclusion he was forced to desist utterly least if he should ingenuously have noted all the several differences of readings which himself had collected the incredible multitude of them almost in every verse should rather have made Men Atheisticall then satisfy them in the true reading of any particular passage An evident signe that the Governours of the Church did not onely rely
he makes a calumny because he thinks it as impossible for the Pope to say that vices are vertues as if God the Father should say such a thing was a vertue and Christ should preach such a thing was a vice Ans It would do well as he said to use soft words and hard arguments waving therefore his reflexions we say first the calumnie is not in saying of him what he sayes not but in the mis-interpretation how he speaks it And to this we say it is not necessary to be a calumny for it may be spoken of him as it was spoken by him in way of supposition and may be spoken of him to be spoken by him And therefore if it was no calumny in the Cardinall to say so it may be no calumny in me to say of the Cardinall that he said so They will think a notionall supposition makes no slander whosoever be the subject and whatsoever the predicate and therefore if he thinks that I must speak it of Bellarmin slanderously he must also think that Bellarmin might speak it so too Secondly if it were as impossible to suppose any such thing of the Pope as that God should say such a thing is a virtue and Christ should preach it to be a vice Then why hath the Pope such a Council to assist him It is well put into more hands for fear of a defectibilitie in one And if it be said that this was spoken of the Pope only hypothetically to his saying so as being assisted with a Council it is easily answered that this is not the Jesuits opinion that the Pope is infallible onely with a Council And by the way if a Pope be infallible onely with a Council why did Pope Clement say that a Council was always good but when it medled with the Popes authority Is there any point more considerable than the Popes authority And is he onely infallible in a Council and yet is he afraid that this point should be meddled with in a Council Then he must suspect his own cause in their opinion Well and can God err or can Christ err in precepts and particular judgements as Bellarmin confesseth in the same chap. it is not absurd that the Pope should err And can God or Christ err in commanding any thing unprofitable or under too heavy a punishment It is not absurd to say this of the Pope although it belongs not to subjects to doubt of this but simply to obey as he says in the same chap. Nay if to speak so of the Pope as Bellarmin says in way of supposition were a slander then Bellarmin slanders the Pope also in his second b. de Rom. Pontif. cap. 29. Itaque sicut licet resistere Pontifici c. Therefore as it is lawfull to resist the Pope invading our body so is it lawfull to resist him invading souls and troubling a Commonwealth and much rather Si Ecclesiam destruere niteretur if he should endeavour to destroy the Church Thus he Then he shall defend me therefore may I be clear of slander against Bellarmin or he guilty of slander against the Pope But then thirdly put case I account it no slander against the Pope to affirm a possibility in him to say that vice is virtue The Consequence I hope is good ab esse ad posse he hath done so therefore is it possible To command disobedience to Christ under colour of obedience to him is to say really that vice is virtue and this the Pope hath done in the injunction of his dimi-Communion as before And let them before they presse this slander any further first help Bellarmin to purge the Pope of all those errors in faith and determinations affirmative against Gods precepts negative in point of practice And when they have done this then we shall be afraid to suppose a possibility if we cannot find further instances of fact And therefore they shall not scare us with a charge of calumnie untill they have strongly asserted such an impossibility Indeed impossibilis conditio facit negativam we cannot err in obedience if we cannot err in commanding but that he cannot err in commands is yet sub judice and not himself All Protestants do say as I noted that the Scripture Num. 19. and onely the Scripture is left us by Christ for our Judge to end all Controversies Ans This is no genuine account of our opinion They do not assert the Scripture to be a Judge in formalities They say there is no need of such a Judge as Papists would have since all necessaries unto faith and hope and charity are sufficiently delivered in matter and form without any exigence of such a Judge And in this they agree with all right Catholicks not with Hereticks as he would have it And Hereticks he may know as before have urged the Church for them and St. Austin hath dealt with Hereticks by Scripture and therefore if Hereticks use the Scripture must we not since Hereticks urge the Church by his argument they must not they know the rule Duo cum idem faciunt non est idem It is one thing to use Scripture for the proof of some points and another thing to say Scripture and onely Scripture must be the Judge for all Controversies To what end then is all you say against me as against one misliking the use of Scripture Ans This is all I have from him in account to five or six answers I gave him to the charge against me for using Scripture as Hereticks do Thus easily he puts me off Well to this put-off we say first that this distinction of his imports a confession of his to use Scripture in some points then is not the proposall of the Church necessary to all points and this is some abatement of his former universality Secondly those points he allows the use of Scripture in are necessary as was intimated before since Bellarmin doth own the Scripture for a rule also And if Scripture doth deliver some points necessary quatenus taeles then all necessaries as before neither need these necessaries be many as Mr. Chillingworth hath observed and Tertullian also in effect Certa sunt in paucis The rule of faith used by the Fathers was not numerous in particulars Thirdly we say not that the Scripture is a proper Judge much lesse for all Controversies And therefore if they will stand to what is here said by them and withdraw that which is not duly said of us let them take the Counters and cast up the difference betwixt us They allow the Scripture in some points we allow the Church in some points they allow the Scripture I suppose in some points necessary we allow the Church much in points not necessary If they would extend some points necessary to all points necessary which are not many we not upon condition but freely would give the Church due reverence in points of question and thus there would be soon an end of the Controversies betwixt us and in
all the world also For all differences do arise either in Doctrine or Discipline if we take Doctrine as extendible not onely to points of simple faith but also to points of practice For then the Scripture should rule us in points of Doctrine and the Church in point of Discipline unto peace But his fair terms will not grow into a composition For he argues that the Scripture cannot be the Judge of Hereticks thus All Offendors against the Law will never be so much their own Condemnors as to chuse on their own accord a Judge by whom they know they shall clearly be condemned therefore when we see all Offendors against God's Law in point of Heresie chuse on their own accord to be judged by Scriptures it is a manifest sign that they know they shall never be condemned clearly by Scripture Ans This discourse in form seems an Enthymem but in effect is a Syllogism if we take a minor out of the consequent To the major therefore we say we are not here to examin what an Offendor would do to save his life but what we should doe to save our souls The question is of duty which we should be judged by Nay secondly the Offendor ought morally to refer himself to his right Judge notwithstanding his danger and in heresie we offend against the fundamentall Law of God in Scripture For though there be a respect to the Church in the common definition of heresie yet this opposition to the Church doth not constitute heresie but rather schism Heresie hath in it more of the matter about which the error is Schism hath more of the form in opposition to the Church because it is neither in things clearly commanded ordinarily nor in things necessary And so his argument from a manifest sign seems to be such a sign that he had no better but besides the minor which is couched wisely in the Consequent or Conclusion is also in part false for Hereticks have also pleaded the authority of the Church for themselves as hath been said and by his argument this is a manifest sign that they cannot clearly be condemned by the Church And then again secondly to the minor he supposeth hereticks rationall men because they do wisely decline as he thinks such a Judge as would clearly condemn them Well then they may desire to be judged by Scripture not because they cannot be clearly condemned thereby but because they know that that is the standard whereby their opinions are to be authorized and made good and because they are to deal with those who know there is no other way of solid reviction for the matter of heresie but by Scripture Thirdly the Adversaries might have known that as they have appealed to Scripture so also to the Scripture they have been sent by the Church so St. Austin dealt with Maximinus so St. Athanasius said the Nicene Fathers determined against the Arrians by Scripture as before hath been said If therefore they who in his opinion should have judged them judged them by authority of Scripture then Scripture is the Law by which they are to be judged And then the whole argument will be returned upon them mutatis mutandis thus All Offendors against the Law of God of their own accord would not chuse such a Judge by whom they know they shall clearly be condemned Therefore my Adversaries who are Offendors against the Law of God in Scripture of their own accord have no mind to be judged by Scripture and therefore they chuse to be judged by the Church which they interpret to be themselves thus as Hereticks of their own accord would be their own Judges so would our Adversaries with all their hearts then they agree with Hereticks And so it would pose him to find any one Heretick as it would pose me to find how my Adversaries Church should be condemned And as for the false glosses and interpretations whereby he thinks Hereticks may evade why should we again say that notwithstanding they were dealt with by Law of Scripture but also so there are false glosses and interpretations of former Councils and later too else how could some definitions be so set down as should please different parties And why so many differences still But is this an argument for Theologie they may use false glosses and interpretations therefore they are not to be judged by Scripture as good an argument will starve him for fear of poison in his meat And as for our giving of scope to these kind of glosses and Interpretations it is not so In maxima Libertate minima licentia Regular permission to search the Scriptures is no giving of scope to such glosses and interpretations then if so in stead of the Beroeans commendation for searching the Scriptures we must read condemnation For if Ministers may not give this libertie the people ought not to take it Neither do I against any Council firmely believe my own particular interpretation to be true but by consequent because that which is so interpreted by me according to lawfull rules I may judge to be true And he may allow me a power of discourse upon the propositions of Councils because he as others may hold Councils to be fallible in their discourse but not in the Conclusion And is not this very disputable Can I be as much assured of it as that Jesus is the Christ And may not I consent to the antient Fathers against the Fathers of Trent Trent Hist And did not some Divines in the Trent Council complain that some determinations crossed the mindes of the Antient Fathers And now if they will consider that the Arrians upheld an opinion which they know condemned in a lawfull Generall Council namely the first Nicene and also that the Arrians knew and that others ought to know that nothing in point of faith could authentickly be urged but out of Scripture they may think they have satisfaction enough to this Paragraph And may what Christ and his Apostles have expressed for the use of the Cup in the Holy Communion be extruded and what the Trent Council determined for the omission not doubted of Call they not this presumption Was ever any before these days so presumptuous Num. 20. Here my Adversary would maintain a supposition of his that they do only believe the Scriptures not we Ans This varies from the state of the present question and therefore when he goes from the question we need not follow him for the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with us is this whether the Scriptures do plainly contain all things necessary to salvation yet as he said Non sum piger usque sequor His argument is this No body can believe this with Divine faith who doth not ground his assent to this truth upon Divine revelation but our Adversaries doe not ground their assent to this truth upon Divine Revelation Ans Some of our Divines have been charged with too much charitie but we are now charged with a totall want of faith