barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to jown hands and amongst christians this invisibilitie supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments We then affirm and let our adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath bin always visible We affirm that the Roman church hath bin always catholike viz. universall The Romish church hath ever had a succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles still teaching the same unchanged doctrine in all substantiall poynts of faith All which going together and being onely found in her and no other church do evidently prove that she alone is truly Apostolicall and consequently out of her there neither is nor can be salvation To disprove us herin we require that a protestant church with these marks may be shewed to have bin always extant Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from the first truth Or at least they must shew us who were the true professors of protestancy in the immediate age before Luther began in what city town or countrey they dwelt and what writers speak of them which lived before our times If they cannot satisfie us in any of these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours if they can name any who did both believe and professe the protestant doctrine in all points let them do it and then if we do not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account it impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out the true catholike and visible church Ridiculous it is to answer as some do that there were true believing protestants when Luther began but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith this wee say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold Christ saying of such he that denyeth me before men I will deny him before my father in heaven Or if your men fly this difficulty we will joyn issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion into which we Englishmen were first converted by Austine a monk a man of God sent by Gregory the great bishop of Rome more then a thousand years since a faith confirmed by miracle from heaven and therefore must needs be true and never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendome in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he held communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church upon earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and it then being a true church we say holding still the same â—enets it must needs be so now Gods truthbeing like unto himself without change and therefore if an angell should come from heaven to teach us any other doctrine then we first received we are not to hear him the good seed being ever first sowed and the Galathians were worthily reprehended by S. Paul for not constantly retaining their first planted faith Or lastly if you desire to goe nearer to the times of the apoâ—â—les we will joyn with you to prove our faith in the days of Constantine the great who first built and opened christian churches and gave freedom for christians to come together and to know and publish to the world what was held by them which before could not so well be done by reason of the great persecutions in which the church had bin till then generally eclipsed Finis The PREFACE to the ensuing ANSWER {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} To the unknown reader BE not offended courteous reader at the epithete I give thee For I call him to witnesse whom the schools rightly term primam veritatem that I am in respect of my present condition to seek a man of quality and authoritie to whom wronged truth may fly for succour and shelter Albeit the ensignes are everie where displayed for the defence of the true protestant religion for which both sides ingage their persons and estates yet upon exact search it will be found that the flags and streamers lately in Ireland and now also in England are dyed with protestant blood And for my self in particular though in the former Halcyou days of peace I could scarce name more persons of worth and quality then patrons of my weak endeavours against the common adversarie yet now I may truly say with Gregory the divine epist. 31. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Notwithstanding aâ— Cynegyrus in a sea-fight against the Persians after his weapons were wrested from him caught hold on the ship with his right hand and when that was cut off with his left hand and after both with his teeth as Crassus the famous oratour when Philip the consul sorely threatned him for speaking so freely for the liberty of the senate answered like a true Roman senatour if thou wilt have me hold my peace in so good a cause thou must cut out my tongue which after thou hast pluckt out with my very breath my liberty shall resute and confound thy tyrannicall humour and proud insolence in like manner though I have lost both libras and libros all means of livelyhood and liberty too yet I will never be wanting in the defence of Gods truth against Romish Idolatry and tyrannis while I have a hand to write or a tongue to speak dum memor ipse mei dum spiritus hos regit artus Having therefore received a chalenge from a Romanist whose name I know not who defieth the host of the living God and like Paris in Homer {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} hath demanded a duell a single combat with any that dare to enter into the lâ—sts with him in the quarrell of the Romish church I could not contain my self though restrained at the present and unfurnished of my choicest weapons but accepting of the chalenge I have met with him in the field pitcht by himself I mean the controversie touching the perpetuall visibilitie of the true church and other difficult questions both historicall and theologicall depending thereon Now because our Romish adversaries conceive that they have most advantage in this dispute of all other and therefore seek to reduce all questions to it as you hear in the chalenge I hold it fit in this proamble to the ensuing encounter exactly to state it and set it upon its true
men capable of the Popedom Pope Ioan and Benedict the ninth chosen Pope at ten years old were no such if faithfull pastors and bishops truely discharging their pastorall function in feeding Christs flock by diligent preaching and exemplary living name me two such Popes for every hundred of years since Christ Phyllida solus habeto Iâ— by true bishops and pastors you understand rightly consecrated and canonically elected and invested Pope Pelagius the first was not so who obtained the papacy by an imposture noâ—Sylvester who aspired to it by art magick noâ—Eugenius who was at the first promoted by faction and afterwards held it by might in despight of the councell of Basil if by true bishops you mean orthodoxall bishops and preachers of the truth Liberius was no such branded with the note of Arrianism by St. Ierome and Pope Damasus Honorius was no such for he was condemned for the heresie of the Monotholites in three generall councels confirmed by three Popes Iohn the 23. was no such who is charged in the councell of Constance with the denyall of the immortality of the soul and the life to come and for that and for other blasphemies and enormous crimes deposed by the councell To come yet neerer to the quick when you stand so much upon succession and make it an infallible note what mean you by succession locall succession or doctrinall that is a succeeding of bishops and pastors in the same place onely or a succession not only in the same place but principally and especially in the same orthodoxall and catholike doctrine which is the only true and properly so called succession as Nazianzen affirmeth {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} This excellent passage consisting of divers agnominations and gracefull figures in the greek cannot be translated but to the losse and therefore omitting the english of it in stead thereof I will impart unto you a very pertinent note upon it which I found in a friends book contrived by him into these elegant Iambicks {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} If you take succession in this latter sense you take up again a beggarly fallacy called petitio principii you prove idem per idem to wit that your Romish saith is the true faith and the Romish church the true church because your Romish bishops and pâ—… have always succeeded one another in the profession of one and the self-same orthodoxall faith If you take succession in the former sense for bare locall succession or the sitting of divers bishops one after another in the same chair you make a â—oodden argument much like to that wherewith the fool in Dion persâ—â—ded himself that he must needs be some great commander because he had sat in Caesars chair or that wherewith Vibius Râ—fus was more than half induced to beleeve that he had Tullies eloquence infused into him by sitting in Tullies pew and leaning upon Tullies desk By this argument you might prove profane Photius to be an holy bishop because he succeeded Ignatius an holy man and Athanasius to be an Arrian heretick because he succeeded an Arrian bishop and our renowned martyr Cranmer to be a papist because he succeeded Warham a papist and cardinall Pool to be a protestant because he succeeded Cranmer a protestant Nay by this reason you might prove pope Adrian who trampled upon the Emperour Fredericks neck blasphemously abusing the words of the psalmist thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder to be a pattern of humility Pope Hildedrand who entred like a fox and ruled like a lyon and dyed like a dog to have been a pattern of simplicitie Pope Stephen the 6. and Sergius the 3. who pulled their predecessor Formosus out of the grave the one cutting off his finger the other his head and casting his carkasse into Tiberis to have been patterns of humanity Pope Boniface the 7. who robbed S. Peters chair of all the jewels and pretious things in it to have been a pattern of a faithfull steward Pope Iohn the 12. who gave orders in a stable gelded his Cardinals drank an health to the devill and at dice called for help of Iupiter and Venus to have been a saint Pope Sylvester who gave himself wholly to the devill to have been a devoto Pope Sixtus the 4. who ware cloth of gold at home in his private house eased nature in stools of silver and deckt his harlâ—t Tiretia with shoos covered with pearl to have been a modest and frugall man Pope Alexander the 6. who carnally knew his own daughter and Pope Iohn the 13. who was slain in the very act of adultery to have been virgins nay by this argument you might prove Pope Ioan who was said to be brought on bed in the street in a solemn procession to have been a man because she succeeded men in that see The heralds who have blazon'd the arms of the popes are Platina Genebrardus Luitprandus Sigonius Sigebertus Martinus Polonus Baptista Fulgosus Iovianus Pontanus Wesselius Groning Let me give you good counsell in your ear invent better arguments for popery than these or charge your elect ladies sub sigillo confessionis never to utter any of them before a learned protestant for fear of scandalizing your Romish faith Let this suffice for your note succession I will now canvas your note unity PARAGRAPH X. Touching the 4. note of the church viz. unity CHALLENGE Teaching the same unchanged doctrin in all points of faith Answer To help out your former argument drawn from the note succession you add another note as you make it the note of unity and consent in doctrin at least in all substantiall points of faith against which I except first that it is no proper mark of the Church secondly that this mark is not to be found in your Romish church Although nothing better becommeth the church of God than to be at unity in it self yet certain it is that both â—nity may be without the true church and even in the purest times the true church was without unity The enemy shortly after the apostles time sowed such tares of dissention among the good wheat in the field of the church that the heathen in their theaters derided the christians for the multiplicitie of sects among them On the contrary as the poet said magna inter molles concordia so we may often observe too great an unity in the enemies of the gospel conspiring against the Lord and against his anointed The Sadduces might the Nestorians may the Arrians did brag of their consent in matter of faith Who art thou saith the Arrian Emperour to Liberius then orthodox who troublest the peace of the whole world Will you
Aug. l. 18. de civ. Dei c. 20. Roma est altera Babylon prioris filia Babylon was the first Rome and Rome is as it were the second Babylon Apoc. 18. 7. Babylon the great is fallen is fallen and is become the habitation of devils and the hold of every foule spirit and a cage of every uncleane and hatefull bird Roma Ruens Romes Ruine Being A SVCCINCT ANSWER To A POPISH CHALLENGE Concerning The antiquity unity universality succession and perpetuall visibility of the true Church even in the most obscure times when it seemed to be totally eclipsed in the immediate ages before LUTHER By DANIEL FEATLEY D. D. MIC 7. 8. Rejoyce not against me O mine enemie when I fall I shall arise when I sit in darknesse the Lord shall be a light unto me Leo Seâ—m. in natal Petri Pauli Non â—inuitur persecutionibus ecclesia dei sed augetur magis Ager dominicus segete ditiore vestitur dum grana quae singula cadunt multiplicata nascuntur Theod. comment in epist ad Philippen {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} LONDON Printed by Thomas Purslow for Nicholas Bourne at the South entrance of the Royall Exchange 1644. PErlegi hunc polemicum tractatum cui titulus est Romes Ruine atque ut valde doctum nervosum dignum censeo qui prelo mandetur Iohannes Downame A Table of the speciall contents I. THe Popish Challenge II. The preface to the Reader wherin the main and principall question concerning the visibility of the Church is stated and determined according to scriptures III. The answer to the Challenge Paragraph I. Concerning the name catholike p. 1 Para. II. Concerning the attributes of our christian saith one true divine and infallible p. 3 III. That divine faith is confined to the written word of God and is unchangeable p. 5 IV. Touching the propagation of the christian Faith to all ages by pastors and teachers lawfully sent p. 8 V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true Church p. 7 VI That the true church was never simply invisible nor so obscure but that it had true professors known to the members therof though often invisible to the adversaries p. 12 VII That the Roman Church that is a Church holding the present Romish Trent-faith hath not bin alwayes visible p. 13 VIII That the Roman Church neither hath bin nor is at this day catholike viz. universall p. 16 IX That the Roman Church hath not had an uninterrupted succession of true bishops and pastors derived from the Apostles p. 17 X. That the Roman Church hath not the pretended mark of unity and that Papists differ among themselves in many substantiall points of faith particularly mentioned p. â—â— XI That the Roman Church is not truly an Apostolicall church much lesse the only Apostolicall church out of which there is no salvation p. 26 XII That amplitude and eminent visibility are no markes of the true Church and obiter of the large bounds of the greek church pa. 27 XIII Where the true Church was when the Roman fell from her first faith p. 30 XIV Where and who were the true professors of the reformed Religion in the immediate age before Luther p. 32 XV That Questions de fide cannot be determined by meer humane stories p. 37 XVI That all who make not open profession of faith in time of persecution are not to be condemned for hypocrites p. 39 XVII Of the first conversion of the english nation to the Christian faith p. 40 XVIII Of the faith of Gregory the great and that for substance it was the same that we professe at this day is proved by instance in 12 main points of difference between the reformed and the present Roman Church p. 43 XIX Of the faith of Constantine the great and that the church in his dayes maintained the same doctrine with us is proved by the testimonies of the doctors of the Church who flourished in that age p. 50 Indiculus authorum A. G. Abbot Abulensis Adrianus AEneas Sylvius Alfonsus a Castro Almaine Alvarez Ambrosius Med. Anastasius Andradius T. Aquinas Athanasius Augustinus B. Barclayus C. Baronius Basilius mag. Beda Bellarminus Benno Card. Berengarius Bertram Bilson Birbeck Bonaventura M. Bucerus C. Cajetanus Canus Capito Catharinus Chrysostomus I. Cocleus Constantinus Contarenus Curopalata Cyprianus Cyrillus Hieros D. Damasus Dicetus Dionysius Arâ—op Driedo E. Elfricus S. Ephrem Epiphanius Erasmus Eusebius F. Fabritius Ferus Field Fisherus Fox Fulgosus G R. Gallus Genebrardus Gerardus Gerson Gildas Glaber Rodolphus Gratianus Gregorius M. Gretserus Ies. H. M. Hart. Helvicus Hieronymus Hilarius P. Homerus Hugo de sanct. vict. L. Humphredus I. Huz I. Iacobus Christop. T. Iamesius Ignatius Illyricus Fl. Innocentiâ—s Ioachimus Ab. Ioachimus Ca. Ionas Aurel. Irenaus Invenalis L. Lactantius Lambertus Geasomb P. Lombardus Luitprandus Lucius Tudensis I. Lidius M. Macarius Aegy Mantuanus Marselius P. Martialis Martinus Luther Ph. Melancthon Minutius felix Metrophnes Crit. P. Molineus N. Nazianzenus G. Neâ—â—rionsis Nioephorus Nicetas Abbas O. G. Occaâ— Orthwinus Osiander P. Pacianus Parsonus Ies. Pellicanus Petrus de Alliacâ— Photius Al. Pighius Plichdorâ—ius M. Polonus Pontanus H. Pragensis S. Prosper Q. Quirâ—ga Card. R. Rainerius I. Raiâ—oldus Rhemist Roffenfis S. Salviaâ—â—s Scotus Dans Erigâ—â— Sigebertus Sigonius Sisselius Socrates hist. D. Seto Stella Suarez Sulpitius Severus T. R. Tapperus Tertullianus Theodoretus Theophilus Alex. C. Turrecremata V. Vasquez Vbertinus a Casaâ—s Vignierus Virgilius Vortleg Vsherus W. Wesselus Groning G. Whitakerus F. White Wiâ—â—lius Widdrinâ—â—nus Wimpina I. Wâ—lâ—ius THE CHALLENGE WE catholikes say that there is always one and but one true divine and infallible faith professed by the church of Christ without which none can please God nor attain to salvation this one true faith generally preached through the world was not to cease with the Apostles and their immediate hearers but was by Christs promise to continue unchanged to the worlds end For so 't is said Mat. ult. behold I am with you all dayes even to the consummation of the world and John 14. The holy Ghost whom my Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things This divine truth once established to the end it might continue was to be derived to posterity not by angels sent to teach particular persons nor by illuminated brethren of Amsterdam still pretending new light but by a continued succession of known visible pastours and bishops lawfully ordained and sent to preach it perpetually in despight of all new sectaries and novellers whatsoever Whence we say it followeth that not for six hundred years only as many protestants grant there was a true church free from spot of error but likewise in all ages following there ever was and must be such a church in the union wherof all sorts might be saved For to say as some protestants doe the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophesies and predictions of the old Testament it
reformatione ecclesiae and Wicelius method concord PAR. VI Touching the visibility and invisibility of the church in a different notion CHALLENGE For to say as some protestants do the church was long invisible besides that it is contrary to many clear prophecies and predictions of the old testament it barreth the heathen of necessary means to salvation whilst he seeketh not the true church with which to joyn hâ—â—ds and amongst christians this invisibility supposed it were very hard to hold communion with her in the administration of the sacraments Answer What protestants affirm that the catholike visible church to wit the company of those who professe the true christian faith was a long time invisible We deny that the church was ever driven to such straights or reduced to such a paucitie or obscuritie much lesse invisibility but that new proselytes might have accesse unto her and her own members communicate with her in the pledges of salvation though not always without danger to their persons and estates And therefore when you fight against an invisible church professing christianity you fight also against an invisible adversary and pursue your own fancie as Antipho in Aristotle imagined that he drave his own image in the ayr before him Of this see more at large in the Preface PAR. VII Concerning the visibility of the Roman church and how the Papacie hath been opposed in former ages CHALLENGE We then affirm and let â—ur adversaries disprove it if they can that the Roman church hath been always visible Answer That a Roman church hath been always in some degree visible we yeeld you gratis but that the Roman church you mean hath been so we peremptorily deny When we grant that a Roman church hath been always visible our meaning is that since the christian faith was at first planted by the preaching of the prime apostles and watered with the blood of many millions of martyrs there hath been always in Rome and the territories thereof and provinces belonging to it a church professing christian doctrine in the beginning most purely in the middle more impurely but in the end and at this day most corruptly And what gain you hereby that the Roman church you mean that is that church or rather that faction in the church for papatus est in ecclesia papatus tamen non est ecclesia which professeth the present Roman faith and adhereth to the Pope as supreme head of the church hath been always visible It will no way follow christianity may be and was many hundred yeers without popery and a church in Rome also but as far different from the present Roman church as Sicily in Verres time was from the more ancient Sicily and therefore as the oratour sought for Sicily in the most fruitfull parts of Sicily so we at this day are to seek for the Roman saith and church so much commended by the apostles in Rome it self and find it anywhere in the christian world rather than there To instance in the controversie about the head which is the head of all controversies between us and from whence you take your denomination of paâ—ists and papalins we deny that there was any christian church at Rome or else-where for many hundred yeers after Christ which acknowledged the Popes supremacie or built their faith upon his infallibility St. Paul we know accounted himself nothing inferiour to the chief apostles If your eyes be so dazled with the brightnesse of the Popes triple crown that you cannot see Pauls equality to Peter and consequently the equality of other bishops to the pope in the letter of the text yet you cannot but see it in the fathers commentaries Hoc dicit saith S. Ambrose quia non est minor neque in praedicatione neque in signis faciendis nec dignitate sed tempore that is this the apostle speaketh to wit I am nothing inferiour to the chief apostles because he is not lesse or inferiour neither â—n the gift of preaching nor in the gift of miracles nor in dignity but in time What not inferiour to S. Peter no not to S. Peter if S. Chrysostome take him right As the Apostle calleth the Gentiles uâ—circumcision so he calleth the Iews circumcision And he sheweth himself to be of equall honour with the rest and he compares not himsâ—lf to others but to the chief of them shewing that every of them held the same rank of dignity {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} saith Oecumenius {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} see how he matcheth or equallizeth himself to Peter Nay which is more remarkable Pope Leâ— who when he took Peter alone extolleth him above the skies and admitteth him after a sort in consortium individuae Trinitatis that is into the fellowship or copartnership of the undivided Trinity yet meeting with Peter and Paul together he doth equall homage and reverence to them both and forbiddeth us to put any difference between them in this or any other respect De quorum meritis virtutibus quae omnem superant dicendi facultatem nihil diversum sentire debemus nihil discretum quos electio pares labor similes mors fecit aequales of whose worth and vertues which surpasse all ability of speech we ought to have no diverse or different opinion of them whose calling to the apostleship made them equaâ—l and their travels in their office alike and their martyrdom parallel Here he compareth them not onely in regard of their personall gifts and labours but of their calling and function electio pares S. Paul then in Pope Leo's judgement may go every where hand in handwith S. Peter he hath the right hand of him in the Popes seal as is confessed by Bellarmine who much troubleth himself to yeeld a sufficient reason thereof And as S. Paul stood upon even ground as it were with S. Peter and witâ—…tood him to the face so did Polycarpus contest with Anicotus and Polycrates with Victor against whom he wrote a synodicall epistle and S. Cyprian with Pope Stephen And therefore AEneas Sylvius afterwards Pope had good reason to affirm though Bellarmin gives him the lye for it that before the councell of Nice parvus respectus ad Romanam ecclesiam habebatur that is that there was little account made of the Roman church or bishop At the councell of Nice which was neither called nor ratified by his authoritie but the Emperor Constantines all the preeminence he had amounted but to a primacy of order and his authority and jurisdiction exceeded not Rome suburbicas ecclesias as Ruffinus hath it After the councell of Nice he contented himself with the style of Urbis Romae episcopus the bishop of the city of Rome The church of Carthage forbad under pain of excommunication any in Carthage to appeal from their courts ad transmarina judicia intending to the see of Rome In the synods held at Calcedon and Constantinople the patriarch of
hence argue that the Arrians were orthodox or the Nestorians Catholikes or the Sadduces right beleevers Did you never read in S. Hilary the ministers of antichrist are 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 of their unity in their impiety if you ever read it could you choose but reflect upon your self as for us though we desire nothing more than that we may think one thing and that as we all agree in the love of truth so we might all professe that truth in love yet when piety and unity truth and concord are divided we say with Nazianzen a godly discord is better than an ungodly concord it is better to dissent for truth than consent in errour Here if you reply that you argue not barely from consent but from consent in the truth you fall again to your begging trade you suppose that which is the main point in question and bears all before it prove your doctrine to be the truth of God and take all A man would think that there should not be heard so much as the noyse of an haÌ„mer among your workmen who stand so much for unity If there should be differences even in matter of saith necessary to salvation among us as there are not our controversies are de fimbriis non de textu of the lace and fringe of ceremonies not of the queens vesture of gold wrought about with divers colours I say if there were differences amongst us in substantiall points of faith this could be no strong argument against us who make not unitie an inseparable note of the true church but it utterly overthrows your church in your own judgment who determine peremptorily that where there is not unity there is no true church but I assume there is not unity in doctrin of faith amongst you therefore out of your own mouth I conclude you have no true church Although like Samsons soxes you are all tyed by the tayl that is the conclusions de fide set down by your false prophet teaching lyes whom the prophet Esay warranteth us to call the tayl yet your heads are as far asunder as may be and you draw almost in every controversie of faith contrary ways casuist against caâ—â—ist and canonist against canonist and canonist against casuist Dominicans against Franciscans and Sorbonists against Dominicam and Jesuits against all Neither are these quarrels {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} but as Hercules his controversies was with Antens {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} about Scripture the rule of faith and Popes and councels the judges of faith and regenerating grace the cause of faith and justification the effect of faith and the sacraments the symbols of faith Your controversies are sharp and poinant and your differences irreconcilable you are at odds 1. Concerning scripture Some of you hold that the Jews have corrupted the originall of the old Testament as Iacobus episcop. Christop. and Canus and others deny it as Driedo and Bellarmine Some of you hold that the originall text of Greek and Hebrew are authenticall and that by them all translations are to be examined Others according to the strict letter of the Trent-canon hold the vulgar latin absolutely authenticall insomuch that no man quovis praeiextu upon any pretence whatsoever may reject it Some among you hold the books known by the name Apocrypha not to be of equall authoritie with the canonicall scriptures nor to be produced to ground any article of faith upon them Others carried away with the Trent-stream admit those apocryphall writings into the canon of scripture given by divine inspiration 2. Concerning the Decalogue Some of you teach that we are commanded to worship God even in the devill himself others disclaim this strange doctrin Some of you teach that the commandement non facies sculptile is not morall nor bindeth christians but part of the ceremoniall law and positive appertaining to Jewes onely others defend the contrary with us Some of you teach that images are not to be worshipped in themselvs or properly but only ratione prototyps in regard of the thing which they represent others defend that the image is to be worshipped in and for it self and not only in regard of the thing which it representeth Nay some blush not to maintain that the image is to be worshipped eodem cultus genere quo prototypon that is that the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we worship Christ to wit cultu latria that the image of the blessed Virgin is to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith we ought to worship the Virgin her self to wit cultu hyperdouliae that the images of saints are to be worshipped with the same worship wherewith the saints themselvs are to be worshipped to wit cultu doulia Some hold all equivocation before a magistrate to be unlawfull and forbidden in the commandement non dices falsum as being no better in plain english than a lye Others allow equivocation in divers cases 3. Concerning the blessed virgin Some earrestly maintain that she was conceived in sin as all the children of Adam are Christ only excepted others with as much veheâ—â—â—cie both maintain the doctrin and celebrate the â—eaâ—â— of her iâ—â—â—culane â—onception and though Sixtus the 4. took part with the Francâ—… yet cardinall de Turre-Cremata writes for the Dâ—… Mulciber in Trojam prâ—â—râ—ja stabaâ— Apâ—llâ— 4. Touching the grace of regeneration and the â—pâ—ration thereof in our conversion Some teach that it worketh physicè and determineth the will others teach that it worketh onely â—…liter standing as it were at the devotion of the will to admit of it or refuse it to be converted by it or not 5. Touching justification Som teach that we are not justified by our inherent righteousnesse as Pighius and oâ—heâ—s cited out of Vega others follow the common tenet affirming that the righteousnesse by which we are justified before God is not Christs imputed but out inherent righteousnesse 6. Touching certainty of salvation The learned know Câ—…rinus hath written in this point agreeable to the doctrine of the reformed churches as also how Dominious Sâ—â—â— impugâ—eth his opinion 7. Touching marriage Some hold it lawfull for the innoceâ—t partie to marry after divorce for adultery others hold it utterly unlâ—wfull 8. Touching merit of works Some hold that the workâ— of a man in the state of grace merit ex condigno ratione operis eternall life others ex congruo onely and some utterly exclude all merit as they are cited out of Vega. 9. Touching sinns Some teach that all sins in their own nature are mortall others are for the schools distinction of vâ—â—iall and mortall sinns 10. Touching the sacrament of the Lords supper Some teach that the body of Christ is made of the bread and allow of a kind of production in transubstantiation others defend transubstantiation by way of adduction not production Secondly soâ—e reach that the
which are contained in the creed only they speak evill of the Roman church and clergy â—o this popish inquiâ—â—tor I will add another Romish nomenclator namely Conradus Wimpina ex fagis who summeth up all his wits and readings to make a recapitulation of all hereticks and sectaries as he termeth them indeed such as have opposed the corrupt doctrin and practises of the Roman church and of these he gives us this pedegree the Lionists begat the Waldenses the Waldenses the Dulcinists the Dulcinists the Wickliffists the Wickliffistâ— the Hussites the Hussites the Lutherans You say these were all bnethren in iniquitie and joyned hands against the church of Roâ—e but yet they agreed not among themselvs not held the same doctrin which the protestants do at this day These are your shifts but Wimpina will beat you out of these dodges for first for the doctrin of the Lionists and Waldenses â—e delivereth it as followeth That the church of Rome is spirituall Babylon and a harlot that in the altar after consecration there is not the body of Christ but only consecrated bread which by a figure is said to be Christs body as it is said of the rock that it was Christ that the saints understand nothing of humane affairs upon earth that God alone is to be called upon there is no purgatory no veniall sins the benediction of salt ashes holy water c. hath no profit in it indulgences pardons and jubilees are of â—o worth the images of saints are not to be kept in churches nor to be worshipped exorcisms are vain and unprofitable Whereunto Rainerius addeth the Waldenses do not receive the canon of the masse they say that the offering which is made in the masse by the priest is nothing nor doth any way profit they dislike canonicall hours they say that the church did erre in forbidding priests marriages they disallow the sacraments of confirmation and extream unction they condemn latin prayers and say they doe the people no good they beleeve not the legends of saints they esteem the holy crosse no other then simple and bare wood they affirm that prayers for the dead do not at all profit the souls of the departed and lastly that the doctrin of Christ and the apostles without the ordinances of the church is sufficient to salvation If any desire to read more concerning the doctrin of the Lionists Albigenses and Waldenses and their agreement with the present reformed churches in every point of moment I refer him to the confession of the Waldenses exhibited to Uladislaus King of Hungary in the year of our lord 1508. extant in Orthwinâ—s Grâ—tius and to the writings of Lucas Tudensis Plichdorâ—ius and others against the Waldenses set forth by Iames Gretzer at Ingolstad An. 1613. Now that Dulcinists and Wickliffists received their doctrin from these Waldenses or Lionists the same Wimpina clearly testifieth Wickliffe faith he suckt heresies which he endeavoured to bring into England from the Waldenses and Iohn of Lion ring-leaders among hereticks And in the same book p. 21. he saith That Dulcinus in the year of our Lord 1306. was tainted with the errours of the Waldersâ—s and that he put all Europe into a kind of amazement and that in the mountains of Trent there is a remainder of the Dulciâ—â—sts even to this day And in the prologue of his fourth book he casts up the totall sum in this manner out of this recapitulation of heâ—esies â—f thou keepest it well in thy mind thou mayst see how heresies came out of England into Bohemia out of Bohemia into Saxony that is â—o let passe those things which are more ancient how they made a progresse from Oxford to Prague from Prague to Wittenberg so that Wickliffe Hâ—ss and Luther delivered them successively from hand to hand whence it appears that there is nothing uttered by the Luthera is at this day which was not before spoken of and taught by the Wickâ—â—ffists and Hussites This confession of Conradus Wimpina a very learned Romanist and a witnesse beyond exception against them is worth gold and may be fitly compared to the Bufonites a pretions stone well known yet taken out of the head of a toad for no better is this Wimpina full himself of the poyson of popery and swelling with malice against the Lutheran and all other reformed churches PARAG. XV Divine faith not to be built upon humane stories or records CHALLENGE If they cannot satisfie us in all these demands in which alone we offer to joyn issue with them then do we think the day to be ours If they can name any who did both beleeve and professe the protestant doctrin in all points let them do it and then if we doe not disprove them the day is theirs And seeing all is brought to this issue we wish your learned to encounter us in this only point and whatsoever they shall return for answer not belonging hereunto we shall account impertinent and unworthy reply as not direct to our purpose which is to find out a true catholike and visible church Answer To answer you in the doctrinall point though we could not satisfie you in these your historicall demands neither should your faith gain any thing by it nor ours lose for the main and leading question between us is which church yours or ours holdeth the true undoubted christian faith without which no man can be saved and in a second place what are the proper notes of the true church of which St. Cyprian speaketh truly Deum non potest habere patrem qui ecclesiaÌ„ non habet matrem he cannot have God for his father who hath not the church for his mother these are quaestiones de fide in a different degree now quaestiones de fide cannot be determined by humane stories as Ballarmin rightly deduceth for humane stories or records faciunt tantum fidem humanam cui falsum subesse potest that is make or beget an humane faith or rather credulity subject to errour not a divine and infallible beleef that must be built upon surer ground Although you could prove your present Romish beleef to be as ancient as the Sadduces heresie and as universally spread as the Arrian or of as interrupted continuance as the Nestorian this would not win you the day did all the ecclesiasticall stories which are extant give in evidence not only for the visibility but also for the sincerity of your present Romish church yet such a proof being meet humane would not amount to a divine infallible argument to build divine faith upon on the contrary if we can prove evidently by the written word of God that our faith not yours is that precious faith once given to the saints and that the doctrine of our church at this day perfectly accordeth with the harmony of the apostles and evangelists and consorteth in all points with the undoubted orthodoxal church in their times we need not alledge any stories or records for
the emperour though it were against his heart and conscience 6. For the canon of scriptures S. Gregory holds the book of Maccabees in the same rank as we do profitable to he read for the edification of the church but not to be produced as inspired by God and of infallible authority for the confirmation of any poynt of faith for being to alledge a testimony out of those books he makes way for it by this preface de qua re non inordinatè agimus si ex libris licet non canonicis sed tamen ad adificationem ecclesia editis testimonium proferamus touching which matter we do not amisse if we bring forth a testimony out of those books viz. the book of Maccabees there cited which though they are not canonicall yet they are set forth for the edification and instruction of the church 7. For adoration of images he detests it as much as we see his epistles upon record si quis imaginem facere voluerit minimè prohibe adorare vero imagines omnibus modis devita If any man will make an image forbid him not but by all means avoyd the worshipping of images Who will now be a papist when we see the Pope is become a zealous Calvinist 8. Touching merit of works S. Gregory teacheth as we do that we ought not to repose any confidence in our own merits non in fletibus non in actis nostris sed in advocati nostri allegatione confidamus let us not trust in our own weeping and bewayling of our sins nor in our own acts but in the intercession of our advocate and upon Iob si ad virtutis opus excrevero ad vitam non ex meritis sed ex venia convalesco If I grow to any work of vertue I am restored to life not by merits but by pardon I forbear to alledgemore testimonies out of S. Gregory touching this poynt because those many clear passages which I have produced out of him before against the perfection of inherent righteousnesse by a necessary consequence overthrow all merit of works also 9. Touching certainty of salvation S. Gregory conspireth with the doctrin of the reformed church for having alledged certain promises of Christ in the gospel to found it upon thus he concludes hac it aque fulti certitudine de redemptoris nostri misericordia nihil ambigere sed spe debemus indubit at a praesumere non enim muneris sui largitate frustrabitur Deus sed vires obtinendi prorsus indulget qui velle concessit nam jam ipsum desiderant oppetere donum est that is therefore being supported with this certainty we ought not to doubt c. Gregories doctrin like ours at this day is a doctrin of faith and confidence whereas the doctrin of the church of Rome at this day is a doctrin of distrâ—… of diffidence 10. Touching the power of calling synods or ecclesiasticall assemblies which you now arrogate to the Pope in S. Gregory his time as aâ—â—ay before it was in the emperours and christian princes agreeable to the tâ—â—et of the present church of England S. Gregory taketh notice of the emperour his masters command for the assembling of a synod in Rome it self juxta Christianissimi serenissiâ—i rerum domini jussionem ad beati Petri apostoli limina cum tuis sequacibus venire to volumus ut Authore Deo aggregata synodo de eaqua inter not vertitur dubâ—etate quod justum fuerit judicetur According to the command of our most christian and â—raâ—ions Lord we require thee to appear at S. Peters c. 11. Touching the definition of the church you scoff at us for â—efining the true and most proper church of Christ which we beleeve in the creed to be the whole number of Gods elect You term it an Idea Platonica or an aeÌ„reall and invisible body a Chymaera or Phantasme and yet S. Gregory describes the church as we do Christus secundum praescientiae suae gratiam sanctam ecclesiam de sanctis in aeternum permansuris extruxit Christ according to the grace of his fore-knowledge hath built on holy church of saints eternally persevering in grace and upon Ezck una ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium There is one church of the elect going before and following after 12. Touching the blessed sacrament of the Lords Supper to be administred in both kinds it is evident that in * S. Gregories time the whole congregation consisting of the laity as well as the clergie participated of the holy cup his words are pretiost sanguinis effusione genus humanum Chrisâ—us redemit sacro-sancti vivifici corporis sui sanguinis mysterium membris suis tribuit cujus perceptione corpus suum quod est ecclesia pascitur potatur abluitur sanctificatur Christ by the effusion of his most precious blood redeemed all mankind and giveth to his members the mystory of his most holy quickning body and blood by the participation whereof his body which is the church is nourished with meat and drink and is washed and sanctified Mark I beseech you that S. Gregoryâ—ith not lib. 4. Dial. cap. 58. he giveth to his members in the participation of the sacrament his body and blood for meat and drink but the mystery of his body and blood as elsewhere he speaketh in Evang. Hom. 14. Realiter passus Christus iâ—cruce in mysterio patitur quoties ecclesia milâ—â—ns sacrâ—◠〈◊〉 celebrat hoc facit in servatoris sui comâ—â—morationem Christ having suffered really upon the crosse suffereth in a mystery as 〈◊〉 as the church celebrateth his holy supper and this she doth in remembrance of her Saviour By comparing of which places any man may perceive what S. Gregory meaneth by a mystery when he opposeth it to that which was done really I leave it to you to make the inference And now to poynt these weapons drawn out of S. Gregories armory and rub them over with the oyl of your eloquence the saith of S. Gregory was never noted to differ from the common received faith of christendom in those days as appeareth by the severall epistles of the said S. Gregory to the bishops of Europe Asia and Africa with all whom he had communion of faith so as if Christ had a catholike church on earth as needs he must S. Gregory was of it and being then a true church 〈◊〉 say holding still the same tenots it must needs be so now Gods truth being like unto him without change and therefore if an angel should câ—me from heaven to teach us any other doctrin then that which we have received from S. Gregory we are not to hear him If an angell therefore from heaven teach that the books of Maccabees are canonicall or that the Pope or any other bishop may have the stile of oecumenicall bishop or supream head over all bishops or that our best works are not imperfect or defective
lay-pâ—pes yours are clergie enthusiasts The propagation of the christian faith to al ages even to the end of the world we believe by the ministery of the word established by our Lord and Saviour when he ascended far above all heavens that he might fill all things and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and sâ—â—e pastours and teachers for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministery for the edifying of the body of Christ till 〈◊〉 all comâ— in the unitie of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God 〈◊〉 a perfect man unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ We acknowledge also that these ministers S. Paul speaketh of and distinguisheth by the titles of evangelists doctors and pastours c. ought to be lawfully ordained and be visible and known to those who belong to the true church though not always to their blood-thirstie enemies When our blessed Lord and Saviour fled into AEgypt and the woman into the wildernesse and the primitive saints wandered in deserts and in mountaines and in dens and caves of the earth when S. Hilarie complains against many in his time who were carried away with the splendour and outward pomp of the Arrian clergie possessing the greatest cities and towns you do ill saith he to be in love with wals hils and woods and deserts and gulfs are safer for me for in these the prophets either drowned or remaining alive prophesied by the spirit of God In such perilous times as these the visible pastours you speak of kept out of the eye of the world and the walk of their enemies and were not so known as you would seem to imply yet did they preach the gospel in despight of antichristian opposits bending all their forces and banding against them and there were added to the church daily such as should be saved PARAG. V. Concerning the perpetuity of the true church and her immunitie from all fundamentall ' errours in poynts necessarie to salvation CHALENGE Whence we say it followeth that not for six hundred years only as many protestants grant there was a true church free from spot of errour but likewise in all ages following there ever waâ— and must be such a church in the union whereof all might be saved Answer That from the creation of the first Adam and his consort till the comming of the second Adam to judgement there hath been and shall continue a true church in the world to which all that belong to Christs kingdom may and ought to repair for the means of salvation we doubt not And of this church we believe that though it consist of men subject to error as well in doctrin as in practise yet that it is so preserved by the spirit of truth promised by Christ from all fundamentall errours in points necessarie to salvation that neither the militant and visible church universally nor any true member thereof finally shall ever be stained with any spot of such errour But errours of lesse dangerous consequence which may be called pulvisculi navuli or aspergines spots indeed but not stains the visible church upon earth hath seldom or never been free from For to let passe the first six hundred years because on both sides we rather appeal to them than any way appeach them Beda who flourished in the year 730. bemoans the state of the church saying every man seeth with wet eys how the state of the church daily grows worse and worse and well might he complain in such sort for Genebrard a popish chronicler confesseth that in succeeding times from Iohn the eighth till Leo the ninth all that sate in the apostolike chair fell away from the vertue of their auncestours deserved rather to be termed apotacticall and apostaticall than apostolicall And after the thousand year when satan was let loose even till the happie reformation of the church by Martin Luther let us heat what the witnesses of the truth in their severall ages have deposed touching the church failings especially in the western parts In the year 1050. Benno writeth that the popes chair was fearfully cut into more parts and that prodigie boded that those popes who were to sit in it should miserably rend the church of Christ In the year 1078. Lambertus Geasonburgensis writeth that tares ran over the whole field of Christ and that the whole body of Christs flock pined away in a consumption In the year 1160. Otho Frisingensis observeth that Rome grew in wealth and power but decayed in truth and justice In the year 1200. Ioachimus a religious Abbat discourseth how far the religion practised in his time differed from the form and manner of the primitive church and how the church now growing old like Solomon fell into idolatriâ— In the year 1290. Robert Gallus had a vision wherein he saw a pope saying masse with a lean meagre and dry head like as if it had been made of wood and the spirit said unto him this signifieth the state of the Roman church In the year 1304. Ubertinus a Casali chargeth the Roman church with grosse and foul adulterie the present church is called new Babylon which is the great whore because the true worship and love of her spouse Iesus is fouly corrupted in her and the spirit of righteous men in this time is oppressed above measure and is compelled will they nill they in many things to serve the whore in her unclean acts In the year 1320. William Occham thus declaimeth against the popes tyrannie and crueltie in wasting the church of God and suppressing the truth the bishops who now seem to govern and teach the people of God that they may compasse their wicked ends persecute those that defend the truth even to death and shed innocent blood In the year 1370. S. Brigetta describeth the miserable state of the church in her days in her writings extant in Bibliotheca patrum In the year 1416. Gerson the famous chancellor of Paris ingeâ—â—ously confesseth that many corruptions and abuses were brought into the church under the colour of religion which it were far better and more pious to omit than retain In the year 1460. Platina brandeth Christs vicaâ— with crueltie against the true servants of Christ He which calleth himself Christs vicar condemneth Christs commands and burneth them that believe in his words And in the life of Bennet the eighth he breaketh out into a bitter exclamation of the guides of the people in his time O the miserable condition saith he of these blind men who because they persist in errour against their conscience cast themselvs into everlasting perdition He that is not satisfied with this taste may glut himself if 〈◊〉 please with store of such bitter fruit gathered to his hand by the author and supplementer of Catalogus testium veritatis especially in the 14 centurie and Petrus de Alliacâ— de planctu curiae Romanâ— and de
Mahumetans as fix and the idolatrous as nineteen O lamentable estate of the world Quis talia fâ—â—dâ— temperet a lachrymis how much larger is the heard of satan than the flock of Christ if you restrain your note of universalitie to such as professe the worship of God in Christ and thereby exclude the Payniâ—â—s and Mahumâ—tans yet so it will not stead you for it is most certain that the partie of christians which oppose the papacy is incomparably the greatest in number If to the protestants in the western church you add the eastern churches professing christian faith in a great part of Europe Asia and Africa they will bear down the scale to the ground To speak nothing of the Abâ—ssinâ—â— and AEthiopians largely dispread in the kingdoms of Prâ—ster Iohn to omit the patriarch of Muscovia the archbishops of Moldâ—via and Walachia Under the Turk there are foâ—â— pâ—triarchs at this day to wit the patriarch of Constantinople of Alâ—xâ—ndria Antiochia and Ierusalem and that these patriarchs are not like some of your bishops whom Pâ—normitan fitly calls nullatenenses appeâ—rs by the catalogue of archbishops subject to the pâ—triarch of Conâ—… sâ—t down by Curopalata which are these 1. The archbishop of Casâ—rea in Câ—ppâ—dâ—cia 2. Ephesus 3. Heracleâ— 4. Aâ—… 5. 〈◊〉 6. Sardis 7. Necomedia 8. Nicea 9. Calcedon 10. Mitylene 11. Thessalonica 12. Laodicea 13. Synadae 14. Ieonium 15. Corynth 16. Athens 17. Patrae 18. Trupezuntium 19. Larissae 20. Naupactus 21. Adrianopolis These archbishops have many bishops under them the archbishop of Ephesus 2. of Moldavia 3. of Walachia 3. of Heraclea 7. of Thessalonica 9. of Corynth 10. of Athens 11. of Larissae 13. of Muscovia 17. not to over-charge your memory with more under the patriarchs All those christians besides many more of the Greek church professing Christ differ from your Roman church in many substantiall points of faith They â—cknowledge no supremacy of the Pope have no faith in his infallibility nor trust in his pardons they disclaim merits and works of supererogation purgatory transubstantiation are no articles of their faith they allow marriage of priests they cannot away with the mutilation of the sacrament by depriving the laytie of the cup they teach the perfection and sufficiencie of the scripture they have the scripture and the church lyturgie in their severall languages understood by their people The Muscâ—vits in the Muscâ—vitish the Arâ—bians in the Arabick the Georgians in the Iberick the Carmonians in the Carmanick the Colâ—hians Slavonians Grecians in their known Greek or other peculiar languages therefore it is not safe for you to put the truth of religion upon this poynt Were the rule of multitude of visible professors of religion certâ—in and infallible Miâ—hea were to be condemned and the 400. prophets of Ahaâ— to be justified Ieremy to be abandoned and all the prophets that were in Iuda and Ierusalem whom â—ose against him to be followed Nay Christ the truth it self to be traduced and reproved and the coâ—â—cell of the chief priests and elders held against him to be maintained and approved Had you lived in Athanasius his days we know where to have had you questionlesse not of his side who had all the world in a manner against him as the speech of the Arrian Emperouâ— to Liberius imports Whâ—â— a petty part art thou of the world Who art thou that â—etteâ—â— thy self against the world In S. Iohnâ— time the whole world was set on wickednesse and in Athanasius his time upâ—n heresie â—oâ—us mâ—â—dus saith S. Hierom gemuit se factâ—… Arrâ—anum the whole worlâ— grâ—aned because it became Arriaâ— What becomes now of your note of universaâ—itie To this poynt I earnestly desire particular satisfaction which I have not yeâ— received from any Româ—… catholike or universalist as they would be called PAR. XIII Where the true church was when the Roman fell CHALLENGE Or if they cannot do this as we well know they cannot let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth Answer We cannot prove our true church by the false marks you have set down neither can you prove your false church by the true marks set down by us Eminent visibilitie illustrious ample unversalitie and anti-christian combination under one head the Pope are no marks as hath bin shewed of the true church And what then if we cannot prove our doctrin by them Then you say let them labour to assign us another catholike church distinct from the Roman when she as they falsly suppose fell from her first truth I have already shewed a church more ample than yours and not only distinct from your Roman but opposite to it as much as we in the most sundamentall poynt to wit the papacy yea so opposite that the first sunday in Lent when they solemnly curse all hereticks as Arrius Macedonius Eutyches Nestorius Apollinaris c. they pronounce in like manner an Anathema to the Pope But what an argument is this If you cannot prove your church by the fore-named false marks then assign us some other church distinct from the Roman in which these marks are conspicuous To passe by this your lame inference and make the best of such poor stuff as you bring out of your own words a man may pick out such an argument either the Roman church continued still the church or when she sell away some other church must be assigned which persevered in the truth else there should be no Church in the world If this be that you would say the answer to this your objection is very easie on our parts for we charge not the Latin church with defection from the true faith universally but the chief governoâ—rs and leaders thereof or to speak more fully that prevalent and predominant faction in the church of Rome that hath born sway for some hundreds of years which we say is plunged into many dangerous and pestilent errors and superstitions yet not into all errors at one leap but they sunk into them by degrees when then this faction in the Roman church which we call the papacy or the kingdom of anti-christ or the Mystery of iniquitie threw it self into an open gulf of error or heresie we say that that part of the Roman church and elsewhere which both secretly and openly impugned such error and heresie and in as much as in them lay stopt such corruptions at the entrance were the true church as for example when the fore-named faction by Boniface the third Phocas his means brought first into the church the Luciferian title and anti-christian power of oecumenicall or universall bishop and head of the whole church they in the Greek and Latin church which opposed it were the true church When the same faction by Irene and Pope Adrians means decreed the worshiping of images in the second councell of Nice those who made head against them and
the continuance of our church for we have Gods promise in the old and Christs in the new that the church professing entirely that faith grounded on Gods word shall continue to the end And the redeemer shall come to Sion as for me this is my covenant with them saith the Lord my words which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed for ever And this is the word of faith which we preach And behold I am with you unto the end of the world Wherefore since all in the end must be brought to this issue whether our church or yours hath kept safe the most precious depositum of the apostolike faith we wish your learned to encounter us principally in this point not but that we will be ready to answer you in all other points whatsoever but because it is to small purpose to contend meerly about the out-works and leave the main forts and castle untouched As for your challenging words If c. I return them upon your self because you speak of all points I say if you can name any that professed the present Romish doctrin in all points within 1000. yeers after Christ let them do it then if we do not disprove them the day is theirs and for the most points of greatest moment shew me any for 600. yeers and let the day be yours Hic rodus hic saltus as for us we are in no danger of your if c. for we say it is needlesse to name any such who in all points taught our doctrin it is sufficient to produce some eminent persons in all ages who endeavoured to stop the inundation of your Romish errours and superstitions as it continually brake into the church especially if they held no substantiall doctrin of faith contrary to that which we now beleeve and teach besides these eminent persons and standard-bearers of the Gospel we doubt not but there were many thousands others both in your Romish church and else-where who never bowed the knee to Bâ—â—l nor received any â—â—rk of the beast At this last answer of some of our men you â—ibble saying PAR. XVI Of making open profession of faith in time of persecution CHALLENGE Rediculous it is to answer hereunto as some do that there were true beleeving protestants when Luther began but durst not for fear of fire professe their faith this we say is to condemn them to have had no faith at all but to be a dissembling company of such as were neither hot nor cold Christ saying of such He that denyeth me before men I will deny him before my father in heaven Answer Bellarmin upon the by acknowledgeth that the Hussites and Waldenses continued till Luthers time who as appeareth by the rubricks of your own stories signed the faith we now professe not only with ink but with bloud which hath proved so fruitfull seed of the church that if the harvest of the next century be answerable to the last you will be constrained to blot catholike out of the title of your church and leave only Roman Besides many noble standard-bearers of the protestant religion who bad defiance to the whore of Babylon we say and disprove it if you can that there were many thousands who refused her cup of abhominations and in private detested her fornications howsoever they made no open profession of the faith neither will it hence follow that they were hypocrites this is too hard and uncharitable a censure Nicodemus was no hypocrite though he came to Jesus but by night and as it were by stealth Nor Ioseph of Arimathea though he made no open shew of his love to Christ till after his death much lesse were the Disciples hypocrites who according to Christs commandement fled from citie to citie and sought by all means to keep oâ—t of the eye and walk of their persecutors what publike or open profession of the christian faith made those saints S. Paul and S. Helary speak of who lived and dyed in deserts and hid themselvs in caves and dens of the earth It is the judgement of some of your divines that in the dreadfull and dismall persecution of antichrist the Pope himself shall professe his faith in secret If to make no open profession of faith is to be a luke-warm hypocrite what hypocrites shall the Romish priests be who shall not dare openly to celebrate masse in the great persecution of antichrist toward the end of the world as your Rhemists and Tapperus imply You your self and those of your religion especially priests and Jesuits make no open profession of your faith here in England yet you would not be thought to be hypocrites Be not too rash in your censures lest you slander your own mothers children Those God threatneth to spew out of his mouth who are neither hot nor cold that is those who have no zeal of Gods truth burning in their hearts those deny Christ before men who being called to make a goodprofession as Christ did before Pontius Pilate either directly or indirectly deny the faith as your Jesuited equivocators do renounce their priesthood calling such as deny Christ in this sort we deny them protesting against such protestants who are nothing lesse then what they are named PAR. XVII Of the first conversion of Britains and English to the faith CHALLENGE Or if your men fly this difficulty we will joyn issue with them in the maintenance of that faith and religion unto which we Englishmen were first converted by Austin a monk a man of God sent by Gregory the great bishop of Rome more than a 1000. yeers since Answer The Philosophers contend not more about the head and springs of Nilus than our English antiquaries about the source or rather the golden conduit which first conveyed the water of life into this Island some derive this {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} from Simon Zelotes some from S. Paul others from Ioseph of Arimathea and some few from King Lucius whoÌ„Beda calleth the founder of the faith among the Britains all fetch it from a higher more noble pipe then you You are the first whom ever I read to affirm that we Englishmen were first converted to the christian faith by monk Austin who when he came first into this Iland found among the Britains an arch-bishop and 7. bishops and 2000. monks in Bangor and what a world of christian people may we think besides Even in Kent it self where he first and most laboured in Gods vineyard he found a christian church bearing the name of S. Martin built to his hand and a way made for him even to the court by Lethardus chaplain to Queen Berta or Aldiberga Greg. himself Austins master doth us this right he acknowdlgeth it thirsted after the water of life before he thought of sending Austin and Melitus to quench this thirst whence was