by whoÌ„ those Articles were at their first beginning impugned And finally the Church or visible society of Christians out of which as more ancient those sectaries by their first forging of their said points of Protestancy did depart and go from And to beginne The Doctrine of the Churches Inuisibility was first taught by Donatus and of him his followers were called Donatists This Heresie at it first rising was written against and impugned by S. Augustine In like sort the Donatists were the first who did ouerthrow Altars and cast out holy Oile but contradicted herein by Optatus and Augustine The deniall of praier for the dead and consequently the deniall of the doctrine of Purgatory as also the abrogation of all set Fasts were first brought in by Aerius his followers for such his doctrines stiled Aëriani These his false doctrines were recorded and contradicted by S. Augustine The deniall of Free-will was set on foote by Manicheus from him are descended the Manichees His doctrine herein was writen against by S. Hierome and S. Augustine The deniall of single and vnmarried life was first taught by Vigilantius He also taught that the praiers of the dead are not heard for the liuing and consequently he taught that we ought not to pray to Saints His schollers tearmed Vigilantinians His doctrines impugned by Hierome Equallity of Works was first taught by Iouinian He also broached the Heresie that our Blessed Lady in the birth of our Sauiour lost her Virginity His followers Iouiniani His Heresies exploded by Hierome and Augustine The doctrine that all Sinnes are mortall was first stamped by Pelagius He further taught that the Baptisme of children was not necessary The firsts of these his doctrines was writen against by S. Hierome the second by Innocentius and S. Augustine his followers Pelagiani The deniall of all worship due to the Images of Christ and his Saints was first introduced by Zenaâ—as Persa who is therefore recorded and contradicted by Nicâ—phorus The doctrine that God is the authour of Sinne which necessarily followeth by taking away Free-will from Man was first sowed by Simon Magus but impugned by Vincentius â—yrinensis The deniall of enioyned times of Pennance was first taught by the Hereticks called Audiani and contradicted by Theodoret. The deniall of the Possibility of keeping the Commendemeâ—s was first broached by certaine Hereticks in S. Hieroms time and impugned by Hierom and Augustiâ—â— The deniall of all reuerent estimation particulerly to the Crosse or Crucifix of Christ was first inuented by Probianus and he recorded and reprehended therefore in the Tripartite History The deniall of the Reall Presence was first mantained by certaine Hereticks in S. Ignatius his time as Theodoret relateth and condemneth them for the same The deniall of Priests hauing power to remit sinnes was first iustified by Nouatus his schollers were called Nouatiani his Heresie recorded and condemned by Theodoret and Eusebius Finally to omit diuers other Protestant doctrines for greater breuity the doctrine teaching that sinne could not hurt a man if so he had faith a Paradox reuiued by Luther was first inuented by Eunomius but impugned by S. Augustine his schollers stiled Eunomiani Thus farre of Protestant doctrines broached by certaine impious Hereticks in those former times who though they be long since departed this world yet their misery is that their end cannot be reputed their end nor their death since in regard of this their change of faith and innouations introduced by them into Gods Church they doubtlesly liue if they had not a finall repentance in a perpetuity of insufferable tormeÌ„ts Now concerning the times when all these former points of Protestancy did first take their being this Circumstance for the most part may be taken from the times wherein the Fathers who did impugne and write against the said doctrines did liue seeing no sooner any of the said doctrines began to rise and get on wing but presently one Father or other was ready by his penne to suppresse and beat downe the same And thus we finde that sentence most true to wit To reduce an Heresie to it beginning is a confutation of the said Heresie That all these former prime Hereticks did depart and go out of a more ancient society of Christians then themselues to wit out of the then visible and knowne society of vs Catholicks in those times according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt ex nobis and consequently that it was those Hereticks who by drawing to themselues the impurity of the former errours became the channels as I may say of the Church cleansing and freeing her from all filth and ordure of I 〈…〉 ouation who made the change and alteration is pâ—ooued seuerall waies First because it appeareth from the aboue alleadged Confessions of the learned Protestants that our Catholicke Faith was the only faith in those ages generally beleeued and that the Protestant Church supposing that afore it had beene in Being was as then by their like Confessions wholy extinct and inuisible Secondly the foresaid points of the former Hereticks departing from a more ancient community of Christians is further euicted from the Fathers particuler charging this or that Hereticke with this or that particuler Heresy only for if either any or all of them had ioyntly taught all the Articles of protestancy at this present beleeued then no doubt all the said Articles of protestancy as then mantained by one man had beene impugned and writen against by the said Fathers as well as the particuler Heresies of this or that particuler Hereticke are by them contradicted Thirdly in that the Fathers who condemned the foresaâ—d Hereticks were euer reputed most Orthodoxall and pious Doctours neither were they reprehended by any other Father of Gods Church for such their proceeding against those Hereticks which consideration demonstrateth that the whole Church of God did in those times agree in faith and Religion with those Fathers and against the aboue condemned and nouelizing Hereticks from whence we may further conclude that the whole Church of Christ which hath authority to discerne both true and false doctrine as a straight line me sureth both a right and crooked line did by the former Fathers as by her instruments condemne those Men for broaching such their Heresies Fourthly and lastly for accession of more reasons the former point appeareth from the consideration of the Nature of the former Heresies which seeing they for the most part coÌ„sist in Negations as the deniall of Free-Will deniall of Purgatory deniall of the Reall Presence c. do therefore presuppose a preexistency of the Affirmatiue doctrines whereof they are meerely Negations I meane they preadmit a former beleefe of the said doctrines of Free-will of Purgatory of the Reall Presence c. For why should any Sectarie in those daies rise vp to deny any of the said doctrines if those doctrines had
ouerflowing of many dreadfull and blasphemous doctrines then broached and defended by him But here I referre two points to the mature Consideration of you M. Doctour and these two learned men here present First whether Luther can truely be challenged at this day for a perfect Protestant and consequently whether the Visibility of the Protestant Church can be truely iustifyed in him considering both the seuerall Catholicke Doctrines as also the many explorat Heresyes and blasphemyes he maintayned euen after his reuolt from the Papacy The second though but incidentall at this present whether it sorteth to the sweete proceeding of God to vse as his Instrument for the reedifying of his Church admitting it afore ruined a man who practized his penne and this after his supposed calling to the wronging of Christian Faith and Charity to the fortifying of the state and Empyre of Christs greatest Enemy to the expunging of Gods sacred Writ and conuitiating of his greatest Seruants to the disauthorizing of all Christian Princes and Ciuill Magistrates to the dishonoring and debasing of the Sacraments to the disualewing of the infinit worth and price of Christ his Passion to the vphoulding and maintayning of a stoicall and fatall Necessity in all things And lastly to the absolute deniall of the most Blessed and holy Trinity Now Gentlemen all if you want a ProtestaÌ„t to be the square and rule of Protestancy I am content in this your penury that you take Luther for a Protestant OCHINVS I am amazed to here of these Points and I would not beleiue them but that Luthers owne wrytings are yet extant ready to charge him with them NEVSERVS I condemne my selfe Michaeas of my former rash and vnexamined assent giuen in behalfe of Luther and I blame my owne hasty Credulity But by this I may learne that the attendant of Wisdome is slowe beliefe But M. Doctour we would wish you to ascend to higher times D. REYNOLDS I will And I will ascend sofely and by small degrees Only afore in part of excuse though not in defence of Luthers errours I must put you in minde Michaeas that the purest gold Oare is mixt with some dresse the fayrest rose beset with sharpe pricks and diuers auncient and reuerend Fathers had their ouersights But to proceede higher what say you Michaeas of the twenty yeares first before Luther Do you not thinke that there were then many markably and visibly knowne who professed the present Protestant faith and Religion MICHAEAS M. Doctour If you can euict to much then you are to name those many Professours if not many some few at least some one or other If you can I now vrge you to it But it seemeth by your silence being thus prouoked you cannot name any one Protestant then liuing so rare in those dayes though so late were the byrds of such an Aëry D. REYNOLDS Do you not know that Bucer Melancthon and Pelican were professed Protestants euen before Luthers breaking with the Church of Rome MICHAEAS Indeede D. Morton in extreme penury and for maine releife of his Cause is not abashed to nam the said three men for Protestants before Luthers reuolt from the Pope Whereas it is certaine that all these were originally Catholicks only vpon Luthers fale did after adioyn themselues to him I here further tell you that it is repugnant to Common sense that any Protestants or any administration of the word and Sacraments should be within the twenty yeares next afore Luthers Apostasy for I can tearme it no better and yet no memory to be extant thereof in any one Country or other throughout all Christendome especially seeing all Occurrents thereabouts if there were any should haue bene performed in the memory of Man and consequently lesse subiect to forgetfulnesse Againe you pretend you can exemplify in Protestants for all former auncient times and yet you faile euen in this last age Belike you will perswade vs that our knowledg of these matters is like to some bad eyes which see things a farre of better then neerer at hand Furthermore I here aske the reason that if any such examples of protestancy had bene immediatly before Luthers reuolt why at least did not Luther Zwinglius and the rest that adioyned themselues to him make mention of some such Protestants D. REYNOLDS The Protestant Church doubtlesly was in those dayes but it was in solitude And herein I ioyne in iudgment with D. Whitakers thus censuring of this point Ante Lutheri tempora latebat Ecclesia in solitudine Before the times of Luther the Church lay hid in the desert MICHAEAS I grant the Doctour answereth so but why doth not he being much prouoked by his Aduersary thereto alleadg as much as one Man who was a Protestant before Luthers chang Againe I demande why did those supposed Protestants immediatly before Luthers dayes lye so hid and vnknowne at Luthers resing If you say for feare of Persecution for no other pretext you can alledge I reply that feare of Persecution could not be pretended to be a let after Luthers open reuolt but that the Protestants if any such were might securely then haue stept out and publikely haue ioyned themselfs with Luther Considering that then diuers magistrats and common-wealths had openly vndertaken the patronage of Luthers doctrine and Religion And who obserueth not that the floud of any doctrine in faith is more or lesse as it is gouerned with the ful or wayne of secular Authority But to vrge a more irrefragable proofe for this matter This point to wit that not any one Protestant was to be found through the whole World immediatly before the dayes of Luther is so cleare and vndeniable as that we find the same granted by a whole volley of Confessions proceeding from the Protestants owne penns For thus for example D. Iewel acknowledgeth The truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Zwinglius first came vnto the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel And vpon this ground it is that Bucer stileth Luther The first Apostle to vs of the reformed doctrine Yea Conradus Slussenberg the Lutheran thus vehemently contesteth this point saying It is impudency to affirme that many learned Men in Germany before Luther did hould the doctrine of the Gospel With whom in like manner conspireth Benedictus Morgenternensis thus writing It is ridiculous to say that any before the tyme of Luther had the purity of the Gospel Thus these Protestants from whose authorityes being thus fully recited I gather M. D. this Resultancy That Luthers reuolt was so farre from prouing the contemning of the Visibility of the Protestant Church or the administration of the word and Sacraments as that it proueth a manifest interruption or rather a nullity thereof It being so fully confessed that at the first appearance of this Misâ—reant of Saxony I meane of Luther who first poizned the Duchy of Saxony with his doctrine there was not any one Protestant much lesse
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
the Church of Rome since the Apostles dayes Which Position is indeed the iuncture without which the whole frame almost of all other Controuersies hang loose Doctour Whitakers vndertaks to proue the Contrary In whom rather then in any other Protestant I haue peculiarly and ex professo made choyce to personate all the speeches and arguments vsed to proue this supposed change in the Church of Rome principally because there is no Protestant wryter that I know who hath so much prosecuted this presumed change as Doctour Whitakers hath done as appeareth in his Bookes agaynst the Cardinall himselfe agaynst Father Campion that blessed Saint and cheifly against Duraeus where the Doctour vndertaketh to instance diuers examples of this imaginary Reuolt Yet here you are to conceaue that I haue not so dwelled in the only wrytings of Doctour Whitakers as that I neglect what other Protestants haue also written in maintenance of this change for I assure you I haue omitted nothing of Moment which I could fynd in their Bookes to be obiected in proofe thereof though Doctour Whitakers is introduced to deliuer or speake it And withall I haue made speciall references to their Books where such their sentences or authorities are to be found And yet learned Men notwithstanding all that which can be vrged by any of them in this behalfe sooner shall they prooue that the fixed starrs haue changed their postures situations in their Orbe then that Rome hath changed it fayth So true are those words of an auncient Father Vetus Roma ab antiquis temporibus habere rectam fidem semper eam retinet What sentences authorities or instances of change Doctour Whitakers hath vsed in any of his Bookes by me alledged the same I haue set downe with citation of the Books and in a seuerall Character from that which he speaketh at large in the person of a Protestant and this to the end that the Reader may seuer the Doctours owne words from the words of a Protestant in generall In like sort what intemperate speeches euen loaded with malice and rancour the Doctourâ—seth â—seth against the Church of Rome are not by me forged and fathered vpon him But are especially those which are most virulent his owne words yet extant in his Bookes and accordingly they are printed in a different letter with the Latin words set in the margent So carefull I am not to wrong the Doctour by vniustly obtruding vpon him any scurrilous and vndecent Inuectiues or Pasquills The Conclusion consisteth in retorting that vpon our Aduersartes where with they here charge the Church of Rome I meane in demonstrating that it is the Protestant who hath made in fayth this change and innouation from the auncient fayth of the Apostles And thus by comparing these two contrary fayths doctrines together and the antiquity of the one and innouation of the other you shall find that errour is best knowne by truth as death is knowne bylife Now here your ingenuities are to suppose for the tyme that Cardinall Bellarmine and Doctour Whitakers are at this present liuing In like sort that the Cardinall hath read all bookes written either in Latin or English which are in this Dialogue alleadged Which like supposalls you are also to make in the other subsequent Dialogues touching the Persons in them produced as that they are now liuing and that they all liued at one tyme c. All which imaginations are fully iustifiable in the true methode of Dialogues since in this kind of writing the Persons you know are forged for the matter and not the matter for the Persons And thus much touching the first Dialogue Now to descend to the second Dialogue The subiect wherof is to demonstrate that the visibility of the Protestant Church cannot be iustifyed from the Primitiue Church much lesse from the Apostles dayes till Luthers reuolt And which is more that not any one Man during all that long Period of tyme nor Luther himselfe can be truly insisted vpon for a perfect absolute Protestant and such as the present Church of England can or will acknowledge to be a member of it Which point being once euicted How deadly it woundeth the Protestants may easily appeare in regard of the euer necessary and vndeniable visibility of Christs true Church whose expansion enlargment and vneclypsed radiancy at all tymes is much celebrated in Holy writ Her sunne shall not be set nor her Moone hid as will more fully appeare bereafter in it due place The interlocutours are the foresayd Michaeas the Iew Ochinus who first in King Edward the sixt his dayes did diseminate Protestancy at least seuer all points of Protestancy here lâ— England Doctour Reynolds of Oxford and Neuserus chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinate Why Ochinus Neuserus are brought in as speakers in this Dialogue the Argument prefixed therto will show I haue presumed to incorporate most of what can be vrged for the visibility of the Protestant Church in Doctour Reynolds as a Man who was best able in his dayes to support his owne Church from ruyne And sutably herto the supposed place of this disputation is Oxford I haue in no sort wronged the Doctour whom I well know to haue bene a blazing Comet in your Euang elicall spheare to whom as being of good temperance in his writings in respect of his brother Doctour Whitakers I am vnwtlling to ascrybe too litle only I wish his fauorits had not ascrybed to him too much If any of you shall muse why in these Dialogues all the Protestants being otherwise presumed to be most learned do reply so sparingly eyther to Cardinall Bellarmyne or to Michaeas their answeres and arguments as here you shall find them to do you are to conceaue that it is agreed in the begining of the two first Dialogues among all the Interlocutours to stand indisputably to the freqrent Confessions of the learned Protestants vrged in behalfe of any poynt controuerted Now both the Cardinall and Michaeâ—s for the most part do auoyd the other Interlocutours reasons and instances by the contrary acknowledgments of diuers eminent Protestants as also do produce their owne arguments in defence of their Catholicke articles from the like acknowledgments of the learned Protestants speaking in those points agaynst themselues and in behalfe of the Catholickes Which method being chiefly houlden throughout these Dialogues how then can the Protestant Interlocutours continue any new reply agaynst the Caidinall or agaynst Michaeas But to reflect vpon the subiect of this second Dialogue And here I do auouch that to maintayne that Protestancy was euer before the breaking out of Luther though euen then it was not in it perfection is no lesse absurd in reason then to maintayne that the byrth of any thing can precede it conception and the effect the cause True it is that in diuers former ages there haue bene some secret and indeed blind Moules who working vnder the foundation of the Roman Church haue labored
Faith Secondly we will enquire and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued That is how longe Papistry as you commonly tearme it hath bene publikly professed and taught throughout all Christendome Thirdly and lastly we will then take a view of the times betweene these two former seuerall times for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides to wit the time during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles and the time during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward it ineuitably followeth that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times or els that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all Now concerning the first of these times how long in the Protestants iudgements M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine or alteration in any point of moment or Article of beliefe for that only is to be enquired the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS I will confesse in all ingenuity that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated till after the deaths of Optatus Epiphanius and Augustine which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ CARD BELLARMINE You say most truely and I do like your playnesse herein since he is truely politike espetially in matters of Religion which require all candour in theire menaging who is not politicke For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted that Tertullian prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation in these words The argument then drawne from Succession was good because the Church of Rome retained by Succession vntill Tettullians dates that Faith which it did first receaue from the Apostles To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe M. Doctour in your booke writen against me subscribs thus saying from hence we do vnderstaÌ„d why TertulliaÌ„ did appeale to those Churches to wit because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession But to descend further in time touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumeÌ„t drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus Cyprian Optatus Hierome Vincentius Lyrinensis and Augustine all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome still continued till their daies your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort That these Fathers especially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles With whome accordeth D. lewell saying Aswell Augustine as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome c. for the purity of Religion which was there preserued a loÌ„g time without spot To conclude Caluine himselfe euen in the same manner answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê insisted vpon by Irenaeus Tertullian Origen Augustine Optatus Epiphanius and others for thus Caluine speaketh Cùm extra controuersiam esset nihil à principio vsque ad aetâ—â—tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine froÌ„ the beginning to that very age was changed these holy Fathers did take that which they thought sufficient for the destroying of all new Errours to wit the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent retayned euen from the Apostles dayes till their tymes Thus Caluine To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence out of D. Fulke saying The Popish Church c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe Thus he granting that till S. Augustins death the Church of Rome was the true Church so euident and clere we se it is that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it vntill the times of S. Augustin Epiphanius Optatus c. which was as is aboue sayd foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ Thus farre M. Doctor concerning the durance of the tymes euen by the Protestants frequent confessions that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome Tonching which poynt Irefere you for greater satisfaction to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers to wit of Hierome Ireâ—aeus Augustine Vincentius Lyrâ—neâ—sis Ambrose c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth and consequently was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration Now all this being made thus euident it followeth according to our designed Method that we consider the number of those ages during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards the present Roman Fayth hath by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants do grant that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith so long it followeth by their owne implicit censures and most necessary inferences that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth Therfore M. Doctour I would know of you what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance and antiquity of our present Roman and Catholicke Religion D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth for a thousand yeares at least For first D. Humfry my worthy sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England being sent by Gregory the Great then Pope of Rome who liued in the yeare 590 thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion In Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus Onus ceremoniarum c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church They did bring a burden of Ceremonies They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall for the solemnization of the Masse They did bring in Purgatory c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast and prayer for the dead c. Relicks Transubstantiation c. a new conscecratioÌ„ of Temples c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences Monachisme Papisme and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition all this did Augustine the great Monke being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke bring to the English men Thus farre D. Humfry CARD BELLARM. Well then M. Doctour it clearely appeares by this that
at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England which was about a thousand yeares since our present Roman Religion was then wholy and publickely practised in Rome that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles that this change should haue beene made not since but before Gregories time and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ I may adde M. Doctour in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein the iudgment of your owne Centurists who in their Index or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century at the Word Gregory set downe with particuler figures ofreferences where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus de CoÌ„fessione de coÌ„iugio de Ecclesia de sanctorum â—nuocatione do Inferno de Libero arbitrio de â—ustificatione de Purgatorio de Paeniâ—entia de satisfactione c. And which is more your sayd CeÌ„turists do further accuse Gregory out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars Chalices Corporals with oblatioÌ„ of sacrifice for the dead with translation of Reltques with Monachisme with Pilgrimages with consecration of Churches with Masse spriâ—kling of holy-water With consecration of the fort of Baptisme of Chrâ—â—sâ—â—e Oyle with celibratio of Masse finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches All which places of the Centurists charging him are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof To these former acknowledgmeÌ„ts we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander your famous Protestant which are these Augustinus Romanos Ritus et consuetudines Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites doctrines practized and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome which as he confesleth Augustine did plant establish in England a poynt so euident that euen your owne selfe M. Doctour auertes that Boniface the third who liued anno 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory and all his successours were Antichrists Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England made by this Gregory and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after thus conclude The Conuersions of so many countries were not pure but corrupt With you herein Dauaeus that remarkable Protestant conspirech who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England Purgatio illa quam Gregorius primus fecit c. fuit iâ—ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta de qua est Apocalips 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity to the worke of Antichrist And thus M Doctour you here may see how the Church of God through an ouer vnkind peruerting and misconsturing her most motherly and charitable endeauours hath reason even to complaine and grieue at those who vaunt themselues for her owne Children so the Vine being vntimely cut weeps out its mishap through out it owne wound Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe M. Doctour other Protestant writers we may infallibly conclude that from this day till we arriue at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory the present Roman Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries consequently seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome as an Innouation and change of the Faith afore professed by the said Church Now it being made euident first that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ and also that for this last thousand yeares the present RomaÌ„ Catholicke Faith hath not at any time thereof bin first brought into the world but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome It now followeth that we take into our consideratioÌ„ the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred and forty from Christ and these last thousand yeares from vs. Which number seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares some more from Christ to vs amounteth to about one hundred and sixty yeares Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome within the compasse of this 160. yeares then followeth it vnauoidably that the Church of Rome neuer to this day hath suffered any alteration in Fayth and Religion since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares I prooue seuerall waies yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth like as diuers lesser numbers though counted after different waies make vp but one and the same great number And first this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine which was beleeued and generally taught at such tyme as Constantine who was our first Christian Emperour was conuerted to Christianity which was about the yeare 320. after Christ and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares That the Faith in his time was the same that the Church of Rome professeth at this present appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists who most elaborately punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies now vsed in the Church of Rome And the said Centurists are so exact and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine and of the Catholicke Rites and Ceremo ies obserued in his time as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point to wit from Column 452. to Column 497. or thereabout Now that not only Constantine himselfe but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church is in like sort abundantly confessed registred by the said Centurists they spending most of the leaues of the said Century in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines and the doctours of that age beleeuing teaching them and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point I remit you M. Doctour to the â—â—ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century touching which particuler subiect I am so confident that I dare auouche that by the industry of the said Centurists the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully articulatly according to my former speaches registred as the perfect memory thereof as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes is able to turne the syth of time so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories so long as they shal be extant the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times But M. Doctour for the greater euidency of this point I pray you tell me whether it is your iudgment that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age but especially those who
liued before the fourth Age and consequently before the aboue mentioned 160. yeares were Professours of your Protestant or our Roman Faith D. WHITAKERS I make no doubt but all of them professed with a generall consent our Protestant Fayth knew not the present Doctrine and Faith of Rome CARD BELLARM. See how fowly you are mistaken M. Doctour And therefore seeing the discouery of errours is an establishment of the Truth for the fuller manifesting of your ouer sight herein I will insist for greater breuity only in six chiefe Articles of the Catholicke Faith for a tast of the rest which euen by your owne Brethrens Confessions were mantained by the Fathers liuing in the fourth age froÌ„ whence we may necessarily inferre that not any change touching those points was brought into the Church of Rome within the compasse of the said 160. years And first I will beginne with the doctrine of the Sacrifice of the Masse where as also in other Articles following I will discerpe here there out of the great abundance thereof some few acknowledgments of the Protestants Now here you cannot deny M. Doctour but that touching Cyprian who liued Anno 240. your Centurists thus affirme SacerdoteÌ„ Cyprianus in quit vice Christi furgi et Deo Patri Sacrificium offerre for this very point they condemne him of Superstition In like sort they thus reprehend Ambrose who liued anno 370. Ambrose did vse certaine speaches c. as to say Masse to offer vp Sacrifice Yea D. Fulke conspireth openly with the former Protestants thus speaking of these Fathers following Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Hierome of which some liued within the said 160. yeares others long afore them do witnesse that Sacrifice for ilâ—e dead is a Tradition of the Apostles To be short Sebastianus Francus no obscure Protestant among you thus writeth statim post Apostolo omnia inuersa surt c. Caena Domini in Sacrificium transformata est Touching the Primacy of the Bisâ—op of Rome your Centurists do reprehend Nazianzen Cyprian Origen and Tertullian for their teaching of Peters Primacy In like sort Pope Victor who liued in the yeare 160. after Christ did actually challenge and practise this kind of Supremacy as D. Fulke acknowledgeth Concerning praier for the dead D. Fulke thus writeth Praier for the dead preuailed within three hundred years after Christ And another of your owne Brâ—â—hren thus confesseth Praier for the dead was in the Church long before Augustins daies as appeareth in Cyprian Tertullian But D. Fulke and Kempnitius do confesse that Prayer for the dead is taught in the writings of Dionysius Areopagita who is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles whose writing in which Praier for the dead is taught are acknowledged by D. Fulke supposing them not to be written by the said Dionysius as some Protestants are not ashamed to auerre to be writen about thirteen hundred yeares since Touching Inuocation of Saints D. Fulke confesseth that in Bâ—â—sill Naziaâ—zen and Chrysosâ—ome is â—nuocatioâ— of Saints The Centurists thus write of CypriaÌ„ CypriaÌ„ doth not obscurely signify that Martyrs dead Saints did may for the liuing Yea they further charge Origen Who liued in no 2â—0 with praying himselfe to holy Iob saying O beate Iob ora prouobis in seris They further charge him with inuocation of Angels They further thus concluding of that third age after Christ videas in Doctorum huius seculi scriptis non obscura vestigta inuocationis Sanctorum Touching Free-will The foresaid Centurists do reprehend Irenaeus who liued in the second age in that he admitteth as they say Free-well in spirituall actions And Osiander the Protestant thus saith of iustine who liued in the age of Irenaeus Iustine extolled too much the liberty of mans will in obseruing the Commandements of God To be short another of your brethren doth thus couple the ancient Fathers of those ages saying Cyprian Tertullian Origen Clemens Alexandrinus Iustine Irenaeus c. erred in the doctrine of Free-will Lastly touching the doctrine of Merit of workes Luther stileth Hierome Ambrose Augustine Iusticiarios Iustice-workers In like sort the Centurists thus charge Origen saying Origen made workes the Cause of our Iustification To conclude D. Humfrey thus confesseth of Irenaeus Clemens the one liuing in the first age the other in the second age after Christ It may not be denyed but that Irenaeus Clemens and others called Apostolicall haue in their writings the opinion of Merit of workes Aud thus farre M. Doctour of some chiefe points of the present Roman Religion taught by the Fathers of whoÌ„ some liued in the fourth age and so within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares though most of them liued in the first second third age of Christ from whence we necessarily euict that no change of the Faith of Rome in the said poynts was made within the compasse of the sayd 120. yeares which time was aboue set downe betweene the confessed period of the Churches Purity and the acknowledged generally 〈…〉 ceiued doctrine of the now Church of Rome And here but that I am willing to auoid all prolixity I do assure you I could auerre iustify the like touching all other Catholicke doctrines taught by the Fathers of the former ages and accordingly beleeued at this day by the Church of Rome Yet before I end this point I will adioyne to the former proofs this ensuing consideration touching the fore said â—60 yeares It is this if we consider either the plurallity of our Catholiche Articles or the incompatibility which diuers of them beare partly to the outward sense partly to mans naturall propension or the diuersity of Countries Nations in Christendome most remote one from another all which cur said Catholicke Religion is acknowledged wholy to possesse at the later end of the sixt Age or Century I say if we consider all these different Circumstances the time of the said â—60 yeares within which most Protestants do teach this supposed change did happen is infinitely too litle and wholy disproportionable as that within the coÌ„passe thereof so great 〈◊〉 change and alteration should be wrought especially in such an admirable manner that whereas in the beginning of the said 160. yeares it is auerred by the Protestants that not any one point of our Catholicke Religion was then taught yet at the end of the said 160. yeares it should so ouerflow all Christendome with such a violent streame as that no sparke of Protestancy supposing afore it were professed or any other Religion did remaine in any one Country or other but that all was wholy extinct and as I may say annihilated Such an imaginary change and alteration I say as this is more then stupendious and wonderfull and such as since the creation of the world neuer afore hapned But M. Doctour giue me leaue by the way to aske
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
proceedeth out of his owne partiality Now this disparity M. Doctour you may well apply in my conceipt to the afore alleadged consessions and testimonies of your owne Protestants But if I haue not here answeared directly I submit my selfe to both your censures and will leaue it to my L. Cardinall to giue fuller satisfaction and answere thereto CARD BELLARM. Learned Rabby Your answere is most sufficient and warrantable and indeed a solid iudgment would easily dispell this smoake of wit and if you had not preuented me I should but haue giuen the same answere though perhaps not haue instanced it in your example of the Iewish Law But enough of this argument by which we are instructed that the present Fayth of Rome was neuer changed since the Apostles daies for it is S. Augustines rule That that Fayth which hath bin beleiued by the whole visible Church of God and whereof no first beginning can be knowne since the Apostles is presumed to haue bin first taught by Christ and his Apostles But M. Doctour if it please you we will insist in another Medium from whence we will deduce our former affertion to wit that during the first six huudred yeares after Christ and indeed during all the tyme since the Apostles the Church of Rome neuer made any change or alteration in any one materiall poynt at all And therefore I do here aske your iudgment whether there must be at all tymes in Christs Church Pastours and Doctours which must teach the People and be ready to withstand all innouations and false doctrines at theire first appearance D. WHITTAKERS Yes we all do teach that there must euer be and without interruption true Pastours in the church who shall be ready to impugne all emergent and late arrising Errours Heresyes So true it is that the church is the sâ—and from whence we strike an Hereticke And this we prooue from the predictioÌ„ of the Apostle who foretelleth vs that Pastours Doctours are to be in the Church to the consummation of Saynts till we all meete in the vnity of Fayth that is as our owne Doctour Fulke interpreteth for euer Which Doctours as our sayde D. Fulke further auerreth shall alwayes resist all false Opinions with open reprehension Which poynt is so true and euident as that I haue already taught in my bookes that the preaching of the worde of God within which is necessarely included the impugning of all false doctrines first their arrising is among the Essetiall Notes of the Church As also that the preaching of the Word doth constitute a Church the want of it doth subuerte it From whence it necessarely followeth that these Doctours and Preachers are not to be silent at the rising of any false Opinion but are obliged with all sedulity and diligence what soeuer openly to resist and beate downe all innouations new arrising doctrines in Fayth and Religion And these Doctours Pastours thus defending the Church of Christ by impugning of false doctrines are those Watchmen and Sentinels of whom Esay so loÌ„g since prophesied Vpon thy Walles ô Hierusalem I haue appoynted watchmen all the day and all the night for euer they shall not hould their peace And indeed to speake sincerely the Nature of the Church requireth no lesse for how can it continue the true Church if her Pasâ—outs do suffer false erroneous doctrine to inuade her children without any coÌ„troule or resistance And are not such negligent Pastouâ—s to be reputed as Paralyticke and dead Members of the Church since they performe not that office and function for which they were ordayned CARD BELLARM. Your Iudgment is to be emdraced herein But now M. Doctour I take your sword out of your owne hand and do turne the poynt of it into your owne breast For whereas their are many weighty doctrines as touching the Premacy of Peter the number of the Sacraments and their efficacy Free-will Merit of workes Praying for the dead Praying to Saincts Worshipping of Images Vnmaried liues of Priests the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse and to omit diuers others the adoration of Christin the Sacrament which are beleiued by the present Church of Rome and which as you Protestants do teach were introduced into the Church as Nouelties and Innouations since the Faith of Christ was first planted in the Church of Rome by the Apostles Now here M. Doctour I prouoke you and all the Protestants liuing according to your owne former doctrine of Pastours euer resisting new and false doctrines to name any one Pastour Doctour or Father of the Church who euer resisted any of the former Catholicke doctrines as new doctrines or did once charge the Church of Rome with chang and innouation in any one poynt from their former receaued Fayth by the Apostles Reade ouer all the ancient Fathers and Doctours of the Primatiue Church and later times Peruse the first approoued Generall Councells Go ouer all the ancient Catalogues of Condemned Heresies and euen study all Ecclesiasticall Historyes of those former times and finde in all these but only any one of the former Catholicke and now Romane doctrines or any other poynt coÌ„trouerted at this day betweene you and vs to be condemned for a Nouelty and as dissenting from the generall receaued Fayth of those tymes and I promise you I will cast off my Cardinalls Hat and turne Protestant Can any reasonable Man then thinke that whereas you teach the Papists Religion came in by degrees and at seuerall tymes that all the Pastours and Fathers of those seuerall tymes were a sleepe when the sayd doctrines were first braoched or that they obseruing their entrance yet not any of them would vouchsafe to make resistance or at least some mention of any such innouation in doctrine doth not this mainly crosse the fore-alleadged Prophesy of the Apostle Or can this stand with any possibility especially if we consider the nature of our former Catholicke doctrines auerred by you to be introduced as Nouelisms since they are as aboue is intimated many in number diuers of them of the greatest consequence that may be as the vertue of the Sacraments the Manner of our Iustification to wit whether by workes or by Fayth only others of them most repugnant to mans sence and common reason as the Reall Presence Some aduerse to Mans naturall Propension as the doctrine of Virginity Pouerty and Obedience most of them consisting not only in an internall beleife but euen in an externall action and operation And therfore the first OrigeÌ„ and entrance of theÌ„ are therby become most discernable Such are our doctrines of Praying to Saints Praying for the deade Pilgrimages Single life in the Cleargy to omitt diuers others all Monachisme And lastly some supposing theire doctrine to be false subiect to externall Idolatry as the worshiping of Christ with supreame honour in the Eucharist Therfore if any of our graue and learned Aduersaries should affirme for there are some curious witts
signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
Therfore I would now wish you to proceede to your proofes and to alleadg such arguments against our former Conclusion as your owne reading hath at any time best ministred vnto you Do not rest only in generally saying that the Church of Rome hath altered her Religion except withal you insist in the particular instances when that Church imbraced such such a Doctrine as an innouation and repugnant to the Faith planted by the Apostles And remember that the Truth or falshood of generalities in speech do receiue their best illustration from a curious and precise dissecting of the Particulars This office now is particularly incumbent vpon you for seeing you maintaine that the Church of Rome hath changed its Faith since the Apostles times you are obliged to insist in the particular Doctrines supposed to be changed in the Person and Popes by whom this change was made in the time in which these alterations are presumed to haue happened and the like as aboue I intimated in the beginning of this discourse Therfore M. Doctour begin and I will reply to your Obiections as far as my owne reading and iudgment will afford D. WHITAKERS My Lord I willingly take holde of your prescribed Method and will giue many instances of seuerall Doctrines euen of the greatest moment now in question betweene you and vs when they were first introduced into the Church and by what Popes they were so brought in and I hope that a due and mature ponderation of them will be able to shake and disioynt or rather to lay leuell to the ground the whole Systima and frame of your former large discourse Well then the first Instance of this vndoubted Change which I will alleadge shal be Pope Siritius who was the first that annexed Perpetuall Chastity to the ministers of the word And I hope that it is to be accoÌ„pted no smale change to barre our Clergy of their Christian liberty in so great a matter since we are taught by him who in these later times first taught vs Protestantcy that nothing is more sweeâ—e or louing vpon earth then is the loue of a Woman if a Man can obtaine it And that he who resolueth to be without a Woman let him lay aside from him the name of a man making himselfe a plaine Angell or Spirit CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to apply particuler answeres to your particuler instances following I must tell you that the force of all such your instaÌ„ces is already ouerthrowne by what is deliuered aboue For if it be already demonstrated that no chaÌ„ge of faith hath bin made at any time in the church of Rome partly by freeing euery age of the Church since Christs time from any change in Religion euen by the acknowledgment of the learned Protestants partly by manifesting that neither the Church of Christ neuer made any resistance against the first supposed change as both in duety it was bound to do and as the holy Scripture prophesieth that it should euer do at the innouatioÌ„ of any new Doctrine neither doth any Historiographer record in his History any such chaÌ„ge partly by discouering the vncertaine iudgments of your owne Brethren touching Antichrists first comming at what time this so much pressed Innouation of Faith is taught to haue happened and finally partly by diuers other reasons aboue discussed and disputed I say if all this hath bin aboue prooued as I hope it is then doth it follow that all pretended Instances and Examples vpon which you may hereafter seeme in an ignorant eye to insist are impertinent friuolous and wholy by you mistaken Neuertheles for the fuller content of this our Learned IeW I will with peculiar answeres refell euery one of your peculiar Examples And first to your first Where it seemes that the Doctrine of vowed Chastity in Cleargy Men toucheth you neare in regard of your Ministers coniugall liues seeing you begin there with And here by the way I must make bold to say that you Protestants God be thanked cannot iustly be charged with being reputed superstitious Votaries and wilfull Eunuchs as Catholick Priests are styled by some of your Brethren to be so carefull you are of your owne reputation herein but the lesse meruayle since the very Body of Protestancy is Sensuality pardon me M. Doctour for speaking that which Experience and your owne Theorems depose to be true as the soule of it is an assumed height of mind and controule of all Authority But now to your example wherof you produce no authority of any ancient Father affirming so much but only your owne naked assertion This of Siricius is wrongfully alleadged for seuerall respects first in that we finde S. Hierome who liued before Siricius to write of this point in this sort If marryed men like not of this meaning of the single life of the Cleargy let them not be angry with me but with the holy Scriptures with all Bishops Priests and Deacons who know they cannot offer vp Sacrifice if they vse the act of Marryage Thus we see S. Hierome reduceth this point of Priests not marrying euen to the Scripture it selfe Which Father in further proofe thereof appealeth to the generall Practise of the whole Church therein saying quid faciunt Orientis Ecclesiae quid Egypti Sedis Apostolicae quae aut Virgines Clericos accipiunt aut cominentes aut si vxores habuerint mariti esse desinunt With Hierome to omit other Fathers Epiphanius ancient to Hierome conspireth who reprehending the abuse of some Deacons and Sub-deacons for accompanying their Wiues whom they had espoused before their Orders taken concludeth thus At hoc non est iuxta Canonem This is against the Canion So he implying that there was a former Canon against the marriage of Priests To conclude Origen who liued before these oâ—her Fathers thus writeth hereof Mihi videtur quòd illius est solius offerre Sacrificium indesinens qui indesinenti perpetuae se deuouerit castitati I am of iudgment that that man only is to offer vp perpetuall Sacrifice who hath deuoted himselfe to perpetuall Chastity This point is so euident that your owne KeÌ„pnitius doth repreheÌ„d the foresayd Hierome Epiphanius Origen as also Ambrose for their impugning the supposed lawfulnes of Priests marriage We may adde for close hereof the CouÌ„cell of Carthage wherat S. Augustine was present the CouÌ„cell in expresse words sayth thus Omnibus placet vt Episcopi Presbyteri Diaconi c. ab vxoribus se abstineant It is allowed by all that Bishops Priests and Deacons do abstaine from hauing wiues And then immediatly after the CouÌ„cell giueth the reason therof in these words Vt quod Apostoli docuerunt ipsa seruauit antiquitas nos custodiamus to the end that we may keepe what the Apostles haue ordayned herein and antiquity obserued Now I referre to any Mans indifferent iudgment with what colour M. Doctour you can auerre that Siricius was the first who imposed single
Ghost to illuminate the world with the Trueth of the Ghospell and to discipate the clowds of the former Romish Errours And I am assured Michaeas you wil acknowledg Luther for a perfect Protestant in all points and consequently that the Protestant Church was in Luther his followers most conspicuous and Visible MICHAEAS I know most of our new Ghospellers trauayle with you M. D. on this child to wit that Luther did erect a perfect forme of Protestancy By the which we may learne that Affection is not only blind but also deafe so loath you Protestants are either to see or heare any thing against Luther herein Neuerthelesse I here auerre it is impossible to iustify Luther for a true Protestant I know also that himselfe thus vaunteth Christum a nobis primò vulgatum audemus gloriari where we may see it is an accustomed blemish of most Innouatours to become their owne Parasites NEVSERVS Strange Luther not a Protestant doth the Sunne shine Is the fier hot Doth the Sea ebb and flow As certaine as any of these so certaine Luther was a perfect and true Protestant He was the Sunne that did dispel in those dayes the mists of Antichristian darkenesse From his preaching and writings a â—ier of Christian zeale was inkindled in thousands of mens soules for the embrasing of the Ghospell of Christ And neuer did the torrent and inundation of superstition and Idolatry suffer a greater reflux a greater reflux and Ebb then in his life time MICHAEAS Rhetorically amplifyed Neuserus But it is the weight of Reason not a froath of empty words which sway the iudicious I grant that Luther did derogatize more articles of Innouation and Nouelisme now taught by Protestants then any one Man afore him did since the first plantation of Christianity yet that Luther was a perfect and articulate Protestant and such as the present Protestant Church with relation to the doctrine now taught by that Church may iustly truely acknowledg for a member thereof I eternally denye and do iustify my deniall out of his owne bookes so shall Luther prooue that Luther was no Protestant Now this I euict according to my former premonitions and cautions first because Luther did euer hould euen after his reuolt from the Church of Rome diuers Catholicke opinions or doctrines then and still now taught by the said Church Secondly in that Luther after his departure from the Church of Rome did mantayne diuers grosse errours or rather Heresies or rather blasphemies and for such at this day condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants So euident it will appeare that Luther was too weake a bulke to giue nurrishment to all those different plants which now do stile themselues Protestants And first touching seuerall Catholicke points euer beleiued defended by Luther euen to his last day these following may serue as Instances 1. First he euer maintayned the Reall Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist as the world knoweth And his followers for their peculiar defence of this doctrine are styled Lutherans by Swinglins Caluin their party impugning the foresaid doctrine 2. Luther also defended Prayer to Saints of which point he thus wryteth De intercessione diuorum cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio iudico sanctos a nobis honorandos esse atque inuocandos 3. He also taught the doctrine of Euangelicall Counsells to wit that a man might do more then he is commanded as appeareth out of his Booke de assertionibus 4. The Doctrine of Purgatory he taught of which see tom 〈◊〉 Wittenberg in resolut de Indulgentijs And answerably to this ground he is confessed by Vrbanus Regius a Protestant to defend prayer for the Dead 5. Luther further taught and approued the vse of Images as Beza witnesseth 6. The indifferency of communion vnder one or both kindes contrary to the doctrine of the Protestants who place a necessity in both is allowed by Luther in these words quamuis pulcrum sit c. Although it were very seemely to vse both the species or formes in the blessed Eucharist though Christ commanded nothing herein as necessary yet it were better to follow peace c. then to contende about the formes 7. Touching the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon our foreheads Iohannes Creuelius a Lutheran thus witnesseth Cum imus cubitum â—iue surgimus electo cruce nos iuxta Lutheri aliorum piorumâ—â— institutionem signamus When we go to bedd or rise from thence we do signe our selues with the signe of the Crosse according to the aduice of Luther and other pious men And Iohannes Maulius Luthers scholler thus writeth of Luther respondet Lutherus signo crucis facto Deus me tuetitur Luther answereth at the making of the signe of the Crosse God defend me 8. Finally to omit diuers other points wherein Luther neuer dissented from the Church of Rome Luther euer mantained that the gouerment of the Church is Monarchical neither Aristocratical nor Popular of which point Luther thus writeth Cum Deus voluerit c. Seing God would haue one Catholicke Church throughout the whole World it was needful that one people imo vnum aliquem patrem istius vnius populi elegi yea some one father of this one people should be choosen ad quem suos posteros spectant totus orbis to whose care and his successours the whole World should belong And thus farre Gentlemen touching some tast to shew that Luther euen after his forsaking of the Catholicke and Roman Church did neuerthelesse still retaine and belieue diuers Catholicke doctrines and consequently was no no entire and perfect Protestant D. REYNOLDS I confesse indeede that Luther as appeareth by his owne writings did not reueale to the new World as I may tearme it all the Euangelical Trueth the fuller discouery of some parts thereof being reserued for our later dayes And though his owne Religion was not through want of beliefe of some Trueths perfectly good yet I am assured It is not by his pesitiuely mantayning of any one errour then in what he was nuzled by the Church of Rome in any sort euill MICHAEAS This your reply is impertinent for here the Question is only whether Luther in respest of his faith was such an absolute Protestant as at this day our Gospellers repute for a good sound Protestant Yet that you may see your owne errour otherwise in ouer highly preiudging of Luthers Religion I wil here particularize out of his owne writings and other Protestants relations certaine Heresies and blasphemies neuer by him after recaled and incompatible with saluation for modicum firmentum totam massam corrumpit which he did egurgitate out of his impure stomak From whence we may inferre that with lesse reason he may be vrged for a Protestant 1. And First I wil here alleadg his impious doctrine wherin he labored to cut and wound Christian Religion euen in it maister-veine touching the
a Protestant Church preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments vpon the face of the earth to be seene or heard of But hereat I meruayle not since Philosophy reacheth vs to speake by all â—sion that where the Obiect is wanting there the sense suspendeth it operation DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Admitting all that you say to be true touching the first twenty yeares before Luther yet it is most euâ—cent that Iohn Hus who liued anno 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares was a good and true Protestant for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox and D. Downeham MICHAEAS Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest The cause of his death was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds and the seditious doctrine touching Princes Bishops and Priests being in mortall sinne But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance The Articles wherein his followers the Bohemians dissented from the Church of Rome were these following which M. Fox thus relateth The Bohemians being demanded in what poynts they did differ from the Church of Rome the only Propositions which they propounded were these foure Articles first Communion vnder both kinds The second that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy The third that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men and in al places The fourth that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered for auoyding of greater euill Thus M. Fox of the Hussite who we see as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points cannot possibly be alledged for visible members of the Protestant Church D. REYNOLDS But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe was not he a Protestant and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth MICHAEAS M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs. And first M. Fox thus saith of him Quid vnquam docuit aut in concilio defendit Hussius c. What did Hus defend at any tyme or taught in the councel wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists Who did celebrate Masses more religiously then he Or who more chastly did keep the vowes of Priestly single life Add hereto that touching freeâ—â—l fayth predeâ—â—nation the cause of iustification merit of Works what other thing taught he then was taught at Rome What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem therefore what can we say for which he deserued death touching the which he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome or with it to be freed and absolued Thus far M. Fox with whom agreeth Luther thus writing of Hus The papists burned Hus when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy for he taught the same which the papists do only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life agaynst the Pope he did nothing Thus Luther Besides all the Catholicke doctrines mantained by Hus he taught as aboue is touched the Heresy of Wiclef to wit that there are no Princes Priests or Bishopps whyle they are in mortall sinne as M. Fox recordeth with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander thus wryting Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in mortali peccato Haec propositio approhart non potest sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani There is no Ciuill Prince no Prelate or Bishop whiles he is in mortall sinne This proposition cannot be approued but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man Now I cannot but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus but especially granting as shewed out of his owne words that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus for a most holy Martyr as aboue is expressed meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church So gladly you Protestants for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church do make clayme to any Catholicke or hereticke whosoeuer who in one only point of Religion though dissenting in all others may seeme to compart and interleague with you Thus far of Hus whom to legitimate for a Protestant you see it is impossible OCHINVS I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas And this Instance had far better bene forborne then obtruded And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church to insist in such weake and insufficient examples But M. Doctour Let vs entreate you to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse D. REYNOLDS I will satisfy your desire The next then in whom I will instance shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef Whom all the world I hope will euen dispose that he was a perfect Protestant and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility This my opinion touching Wicklef being a Protestant is not myne alone but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox and the learned Crispinus MICHAEAS Indeede M D. M. Fox Crispinus I grant do so teach but how truly Obserue what followeth and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment And yet before I come to the tuche of this point I must put you in mind what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited that at Wickleffs reuolt supposing him to be a Protestant the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible for thus M. Fox writeth In the tyme of horrible darknes when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine left or remayning Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp through whom the Lord would first awaken raize vp againe the World Thus he This Wicklef being an Englishman as you know M. D. was a Catholicke Priest and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs and as Stow relateth He first inueighed against the Church of Rome because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury from a certaine benefice He liued anno 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant I proue in that besides he was a Catholicke Priest and no Church of the Protestants then knowne to him he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings First he beleiued seauen Sacraments thus writing of them Quaedam sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself as Baptisme the Eucharist the sacrament of Orders and of Penance certaine also by his Apostles as the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme
Agens as here you say how then can we know that Berengarius Waldo Wicklefe c. were Protestants And if these and others were Protestants then was not Protestancy and the Mantayners of it wholy extinguished by the former Popes sedulity and diligence How do you extricate your selfe Ochinus out of this Labyrinth Agayne I say this your sentence is but a meere Imagination wrought in the forge of your owne brayne For you haue neyther proofe nor colour of proofe that either the names of Protestants in former ages should be concealed or their bookes or any other Records touching them should by the labored confederacy of the Popes and their followers be suppressed and made away And why then should here your bare asseueration be credited Secondly I vrge that such proceedings as here are pretended to be as the extinguishing the light and splendour of Christs Church for so many ages togeather do mainly impugne the Prophecyes of holy Scripture deliuered of it for we reade that it is sayd of Christs Church Her Sunne shal not be set nor her Moone hid That she shall not be giuen to another People but shall stand for euer That she shal be an eternall glory and ioy from Generation to generation All which Prophecyes besydes diuers others recited by your selfe afore tending to the exaltation and glory of Christs Church how dissortingly and disproportionably can they be auerâ—ed of the Protestant Church of former tymes If so the Annals Records and all other Monuments of it former being be wholy obliterated and extinguished Thirdly this Euasion contradicteth the more ingenious and playne acknowledgments of others of your owne Brethren who do teach that your Church for sundry ages hath remayned wholy inuisible or rather vtterly extinct I will here produce the authority only of D. Parkins His words are these For many hundred yeares past an vniuersall Apostasy hath ouerspred the whole face of the Earth And our Church hath not bene visible to the world Lastly and principally this your surmise impugneth all experience touching the cheife Occurrents of the same ages and times For first we find that the personall defects and blemishes of certaine Popes are registred in those tymes and the relation of them are at this present extant Neyther could the Popes preuent the same And from such relations do the Protestants and particularly you M. D. in some of your writings vpbraid vs with the lesse warrantable life of some Popes Now then these things standing thus how could the Popes hinder the registring of any Professours of fayth aduerse contrary to themselfs in those dayes It is absurd therefore to thinke that the Popes were well contented that their owne scarts should remayne to be seene by all posterity supposing it were their powers to preuent the same and yet should affectedly labour that all testimonyes of different professours in fayth from them but especially of Protestant Professours should be buryed in eternall silence and obliuion Themselfs not being able to forsee that protestancy should sweigh more in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth and Religion Againe the Examples of the Wrytings of Hus Wicklefe the pretended booke of Carolus Magnus the supposed booke of Bertram the connterfeyted Epistle of Vlrick and all other writings of the foresaid Hereticks or any others at this day yet extant not suppressed fight mainly with this your Opinion For were it not that the said Wrytings and bookes were yet remayning to the world the Protestants of these tymes could not haue knowne what articles of protestancy the said Heretickes did mantayne in those dayes Furthermore the very subiect of the Decrees and Canons of Catholicke Councels celebrated in all former ages is chiefly the condemning and anathematizing of particular Heresyes there verbatim set downe and expressed as they did rise in the same ages with commemoration and recitall of the Hereticall doctrine inuented and the person inuenting with all other due circumstances Ad hereto that your owne Brethren confesse what we here endeauour to proue Among whom D. Whitakers shall serue for all at this tyme who being glad to make clayme for Protestants of all such as in any sort resisted the Pope thus writeth to his Catholicke Aduersary Vestris historijs nostrae Ecclesiae memoria viget Et qui Pontificij regni res narrare conati sunt ij nostrae Ecclesiae sunt testis The memory of our Church florisheth euen in your Historyes And those who labored to relate the proceedings of the Popes Kingdome are become Witnesses of our Church Thus D. Whitakers Lastly we will adioyne to all the former experiences the historyes and Cronicles euen of the Protestants whose subiect taske designed labour is to relate and make mention of such strange new doctrines as did rise in euery age shewing how the said doctrines were not proued ouer in silence by the Church of Rome but how and when and in what Popes reigne they were openly gainsaid crossed and condemned by the said Church And all this the Protestant Historiographers do borrow from the Catholicks auncient Records for but for those Catholicke Records they could not tell how in these dayes to write of those matters This we see is performed very diligently by the Century writers in their seuerall Centuryes by Pantaleon in his Chronographia by Osiander in his Epitome Eccles And by Illyricus in his booke stiled Catalogus testium Veritatis qui ante nostram aetatem reclamarunt Papae And which is here to be noted as making more in our behalfe herein diuers of these opinions and doctrines thus related by these Protestants to haue bene condemned in former ages are such as are at this present mantayned for true doctryne by the Protestants Now from all these premisses we may fully gather how far those former ages or the Popes then liuing were from laboring and affecting to keepe in silence or suppresse any doctrine whatsoeuer or persons mantayning the same which did appeare to be repugnant to the faith and Religion of the Roman Church at those tymes But gentlemen I feare I haue bene ouer longe OCHINVS Learned Michaeas I do confesse I haue seldome seene the weaknes of an opinion more fully and irreplicably displayed then this of myne is by you at large euen by direct of seuerall reasons And therfore for euer after I am resolued wholy to disauthorize and depose it For indeed I see It is but a meere aery and vasperous Conceate instantly dissipated before the least beame of a cleare Iudgment NEVSERVS I do with you Ochinus acknowledge the transparency of it since an impartiall eye is at the first able to see through it But Michaeas I see no reason but that we may auer that the Protestant Church and the administration of the Word Sacraments were in all ages though the particular professours of it were latent and indeed inuisible through the raging tyranny and persecution wherewith the Popes of former times did afflict all those
may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes as fully as we Protestants can do And therefore I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius alledged by you Neuserus D. REYNOLDS I haue found some of our owne learned brethren to teach though aforehand I tell you Michaeas that I dissent in opinion from them that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church are but one and the same Church from which position they inferre that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed at least as you Romanists do auerâ—e in the Church of Rome that consequently ours and yours being but one Church they are performed in the Protestant Church And according hereto we find M. Hooker thus to teach We gladly acknowledg them of Rome to be of the family of Iesus Christ c. And agayne we say that they of Rome c. are to be held a part of the house of God a limme of the visible Church of Christ with whome conspireth D. Some thus graunting The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the Church of God But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one eyther to retayne it or reiect it MICHAEAS Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded vnder the Wings of Truth For whereas the most dispassionate sober learned Protestants among you do grant that for many ages before Luthers reuolt they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments And yet during all the sayd ages they see that all this is actually accomplished in our Catholicke Roman Church They are therefore forced to giue back and to retyre in all their former answeres And at length are driuen for the supporting of their owne Church to say that the Protestant Church the Roman Catholicke Church are identically but one and the same Church And thereupon they inferre as you M. Doctour say that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment hath euer continued visible during all the former ages that therefore your Protestant Church both being but one and the same by their curteous yeelding hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments So ready you Protestants are for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes to ioyne hands with they Catholicks if so they would agree therto you granting that your owne Succession calling and Ministery is and hath bene for former ages continued and preserued only in the Succession calling Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church And according to this our meaning M. Bunny a Protestant of good esteeme here in England dealeth plainly ingeniously herein for he not only teacheth as the former Protestants do but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine to wip that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church during so many former ages for thus he writeth Of the departing from the Church there ought to be no question amang vs. We are no seuerall Church front them meaning from vs Catholicks nor they from vs And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church Nor any do deparâ— from them to vs nor from vs to them c. And yet more fully It was euill done of them who vrged first such a separation c. For that it is great probability for them meaning vs Catholicks that so we make our selfâ— answerable to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present Or els that needs we must acknowledge that our Church is sprung vp but of late or since theirs And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage if they can ioynt vs to this separation Thus M. Bunny But touching my particular iudgment herein I vtterly with all Catholicks disclayme from mantayning that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one And I confidently auerre that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants for the reasons aboue expressed OCHINVS What is the matter brought to this Issue that we must grant the Papists Church and our Church to be one and the same Church Is this M. Doctour the euent of our disputation I will here imprecate with the Poet against myselfe Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat â—â—fulâ—ine ad vmbraâ— Pallâ—â—ies vmbras Erebi â—octeâ—que profundam Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome to be the Church of God NEVSERVS I giue you free leaue Ochinâ—s to include me within this your imprecation For I will dye the death of a sinner before I grant that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church What shall Superstition and Idolatry by our owne consents be aduanced and set vp side by side with the Gospell in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle It is a thing insufferable and the thought thereof is not so much as once to be entertayned MICHAEAS Gentlemen good words God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs be not heard And though I be of your mynd that the Catholicke Church and your Church is not all one Church yet if before your deaths you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome for the true Church doublesly your prayer wil be heard when your selfs though too late shall with vnutterable but improfitable remoâ—se condemne your selfs of your owne grosse consideration in so weighty a matter But M. Doctour and you two Hitherto we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments for your Churches visibility and my answering of them Now I do expect that our Scenes be altered And that I may insist in obiecting what I haue red confessed euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute are in all Reason and by custome of all Schooles most warrantable D. REYNOLDS We giue you good leaue For it argueth a great distrust diffidence in a Mans cause to tye his aduersary only to answere and neuer to suffer him to oppose And it is as vnreasonable as if in a Duelisme the one party should be indented with only toward and neuer to sryke Therefore proceed Michâ—â—s at your pleasure MICHAEAS Truth sayth S. Augustin iâ— mâ—re foroible to wrâ—ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rackâ— or tormâ—nt Which sentence we fyâ—d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility For diuers learned Protestants there are who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings and in their managing of matters of Religion then others of their party as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances and other colorable euasions and answeares which
we shall losse you so soone Only I would entreate you to haue in your discourses wheresoeuer you shall hereafter come a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church of all the true and constant members thereof And herewith Worthy Michaeas I take my last farewell MICHAEAS M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake answerably to your desarts Nobly and with great respect Since you are a Man whose barke is richly fraught with learning Morality And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute I do wholy ascribe them to your want of a good cause not to your want of good parts And if there haue bene any words misplaced by vs on eyther syde sâ—t the thought of them vanish away since they were spoken Antagonisticeâ— and in heaâ—e of disputation And so in all kindnes Christian charity I leaue you with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church As for you two fagotts of Hell-fire I grant my eyes euen sparkle forthâ—râ—ge in behoulding of you And I account contrary to the place of the burning bush the place wherin you stand to be cursed ground â—or since your Sunne is so fâ—rie of you I meane your excepted false Messias what can you looke but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation Therefore I will take leaue with you in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas the Magitian and what greater Magicke then for one to be enchaâ—ted to beleiue that Christ is a seâ—ucer O you full of all subtilty and mischeife the Sonns of the Deuill enemyes of all iustice who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord Adieu OCHINVS You enioy Michaeas the liberty of your Tongue but â—age you well NEVSERVS Let him go I will nor take leaue with him such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS Now M. Doctour Michaeas is gonne And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs without feare of being ouerheard I know that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas but your selfe also rest much disedisyed at our abâ—enunciation of Christianity But M. Doctour come to the point We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament which must euer remayne sacred permanent and 〈…〉 uiolable do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias must euer be visible knowne and conspicuous and must in all ages without any intermission enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments And this is abundantly confessed not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation but by all learned men whosoeuer We now notwithstanding such necessity therof cannot but confesse that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ at leâ—st in the Protestant Church how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias which is so gloriously deliueaâ—ed with the penalls of the Prophets Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises then that the Church of Christ as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles is not the true Church of God and consequently that Christ is the true Messias Sauiour of the World except we will grant which I neuer will the Papists Church as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it to be the sole Church of God Therefore so farre as toucheth my selfe I do renounce my former Christian fayth and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision and will instantly write a booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues aunciently practized by the â—ewes in the old Testament though now by Christians houlden as vnlawfull and altogether proâ—â—ibited NEVSERVS By the Lord of Heauen I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church which my Soule abhorrs to do For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church It cannot be made good notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards through which wee spooke to Michaeas and plainly confese the truth herein And here M. D. to take a short view of all the discours passed and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs We cannot but obserue that the Exemples produced by you were most insufficient first because they were no Protestants at all Secondly in that admitting them for Protestants they but only serue as Michaeas well noted to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake any one confessed Example of Protestancy for the space of six hundred yeers at the least Againe when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe and all for the sauing of our Churches honour As first to pretend though God knowes a silly pretence that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny vtterly extinct That fayling then we made show for in our priuat iudgments we could not really thinke it That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution That playne answere not seruinge then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution in a certaine obscure and darke sentence to wit That the Church was in the Papacy the Papacy in the Church and yet the Church was not the Papacy a forme of words as Michâ—as truly â—â—id forged by vs Protestants only to cast a â—yst in the eyes of the vnlearned The next we fled for our surest but indeed sham full refuge vnto the Scripture pretending our Church to be consonant to it and therefore euer visible a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke After all which if you remember M. D. your selfe did politikly touch vpoÌ„ that opinion though not with any greate approbation of it which for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine teacheth that the Papists Church and Ours are all one But did you marke how Michaeas neuer ceased till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing from our owne learned Mens penns the mayne question now controuerted among vs Now M. D. seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus and ame determined to haue this Country from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate where
Work A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words You can name the notable personages in all ages obserue these words in all ages and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order and vpon your fingars Thus D. Fulke 3. Thirdly We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility during the first six hundred years after Christ and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church by taking a view in generall how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants who indeed dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein do absoluâ—ly reiect them as inexcusable and grosse Papists For as for these last thousand yeares It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer that our Church hath bene most visible tyrannyzing they say ouer the true Church for so many ages And according hereto M Powell sayth From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous But to proceede If the most auncient most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church I meane Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Iustinus Ireneus Tertulâ—an Origen Cyprian Athanasius Hilarius the Cyrills the Gregoryes Ambrose Basill Optatus Gaudentius Chrysostome Ierome Austin and diuers others be accounted by our aduersaryes most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth then followeth it ineuitably that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church and then consequently the Church whereof they were Pastours must needs be visible That these primatiue Fathers were Papists as our Aduersaryes tearme vs appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes And first Peter Martyr thus confesseth of this point As long as we insist in the Fathers so long we shal be conuersant in their errours Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers Euen in the best tymes meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church the ambition ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such as the very blind may easily perceaue that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church Latin also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merit of Innocation of Saints and such like meaning such like Catholicke doctrines Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers who thus confesseth Presently from the beginning of the Church that is presently after Christ his Ascension the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth increased ceremonyes and deuised peculiar Worshipps But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words The Fathers for so many ages meaning after the Apostles haue bene blind and most ignorant in the Scriptures They haue erred all their lifetyme and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths they were neither Saincts nor pertayning to the Church Thus Luther And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church and consequently that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes 4. Fourthly The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued from that the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth since it first plantation by the Apostles Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth then followeth it demonstratiuely that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome euer since the Apostles and consequently that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes To proue that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true vndoubred euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much And here I am to craue pardon if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants aboue produced in this Dialogue Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages so here also diuers of them prooue so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church during the said tymes To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church I will ascend vp by degrees euen to and within the Apostles dayes And this because some Protestants as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow First then M Parkins thus sayth During the space of nyne hundred yeares the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander all which do in euery of the Centuryes from S. Gregories tyme to Luther name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth according to the Century or age wherin eich of them liued But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme thus saying The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope Sâ—luester and the Emperour Constantyn for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares And also againe from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein for thus he witnesseth During euen the second and third ages the true temple of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles thus wrytinge Presently after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth thus saying The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church then may we infer that the Church of Rome and it fayth as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour the false Church was visible immediatly
he aboundantly declareth that Wâ—clefe was condemned by the Church of Rome for his defence of many errours and Heresyes he subtilly beareth the Reader in hand though he expresseth not any of them in particular that all these Heresyes condemned in him were points of protestancy thereby to make show what a great number of protestant articles were beleiued in those dayes and how much the said Men did participate in doctrine with the protestants of these tymes But this is a meere sleight and imposture seeing it is euident that besides some few points of protestancy beleiued by Wiclefe Huâ— the Waldenses or Albigenses there were many more Heresyes mantayned by them then condemned by the Church of Rome Which are acknowledged for Heresyes both by Catholicks and Protestants and such as in no sort concerne the Protestant Religion as way euidently appeare from the perusing of the seuerall passages of the former Dialogue wherein the heresies of Wiclefe Hus the Waldenses and others are at large displayed From Wiclefe the pamphleter commeth to Geffray Chaucer And thus he is forced by his owne poetizing and forging art to beg some prouffe from Poets Of Chaucer he thus wryteth He did at large paint out the pryde lasciuious vicious and intellerable behauiour of the Popes Cardinalls and Cleargy c. adding much more securiliâ—y of his owne and setting downe certaine verses of Chaucer But what prooueth this For first we are not in reason to giue credit to euery verse dropping from the satyricall penne of Chaucer Secondly admit all were true that Chaucer writeth yet seeing his reprehensions do only touch manners and conuersation and not fayth it followeth not that Chaucer was a protestant as I haue intimated in the former examples or that the Protestant Religion was in his dayes professed which is the only point here to be prooued Thirdly if it must be concluded that Chaucer for such his wryting was a protestant then by the same reason may Spencer the Poet for his bitter taxing of the Cleargy in his Mother Hubbardstale and Daniel for his controuling of the present tymes touching Religion and Learning in his Musophilus be reputed Catholicks or Papists yet it is well knowne they both were Protestants and the later rather a puritan The Pamphleter next insisteth in one Walter Bruit an English Man liuing anno 1393 and puteth him forth for a protestant for his defending of diuers supposed doctrines of protestancy there set downe To this I answere first he alledgeth no authenticall writer affirming so much but only an obscure Register of the Bishop of Hereford and therefore it may iustly be suspected to be meerely suppositions and forged or rather that it is but feigned that such a writing is seeing such a writing may with more facility be coyned without any discouery of deceat therein as being to he found only among the Antiquityes belonging to the sayd Bishop who is a protestant Secondly suppose all for true yet seeing that Scedule prooueth the sayd Bruite to be a protestant but only in some points it followeth that he was Catholicke in the rest and therefore can no more be challenged for a protestant then for a Catholicke being the fayth of a professour in any Religion ought to be entyre perfect compleate otherwise no man can take his denomination and name from the same fayth Thirdly suppose him to be a Protestant in all points yet seing he is but one particular man that it cannot be prooued that others did communicate with him in doctrine his example cannot prooue the visibility of the Protestant Church since one man alone cannot be accounted for a Church Lastly this example serueth admitting it for true but for the tyme that Bruyte liued It not being able to be prooued that the doctrines of Protestancy imputed to him were taught and beleiued in all other Ages and Centuryes This donne the Pamphleter proceedeth to diuers burnt and put to death for their Religion in the dayes of King Henry the fourth the fift and the sixt King Edward the fourth and King Henry the seauenth Which testimonyes he taketh out of that lying Legend of Fox to which booke no more credit is to be giuen then to Esop fables But to these examples I reply first The Treatiser setteth not downe the Protestant articles mantayned by these men for their defence of which they are here presumed to be burned And therefore it well may be that they suffered death for their broaching of some other heresyes or blasphemyes not controuerted between the Protestant and the Catholicke therefore such Examples are wholy impertinent Secondly if we do admit the authority of Fox herein yet it proueth that those men lost their liues but for one two or three particular points at the most of protestancy mantayned seuerally by eich of them they embracing all other poynts of Catholicke Religion being both more in number and of greater importance And if it be otherwise then let this Authour prooue 〈◊〉 were Protestants in all chiefe Articles of Protestancy Now how insufficiently such examples can be suggested for the visibility of the Protestant Church in former Ages appeareth both from that already set downe in this Suruey as also more fully from the perusall of the former Treatise And here the Reader is to obserue that as such men aboue mentioned cannot iustly be taken for Catholicks so may they truly be ranged for hereticks seing a stubborne and contumacious beleife but of one heresy maketh a man an hereticke Whereas it must be an â—nanimous fayth of all points of true Religion without exception of any which is exacted for making a man a true beleiuer For the nature of true fayth doth here participate of the nature of an action morally vertuous Which is become defectiue through the want of one due circumstance only but is made perfect and complete by the necessary presence of all due circumstances After the former examples he commeth to Marsilius de Padua an acknowledged Hereticke Who cheifly erred in denying the Popes authority Now the Pamphleter to make his doctrine in this one point to seeme more diuers in seuerall points from the doctrine of the Catholicks subtilly deuideth it in setting it downe into seuerall branches But to what end is this example pressed Seing it was the errour but of one Man at that tyme and principally but in one Controuersy He comparting with the Catholicks in the doctrine of the Reall presence Purgatory Freewill praying to Saints merit of Works Traditions c. In the next place he vrgeth two Italian Poets Dante 's and Petrach for Protestants because they did wryte somewhat in depressing the Popes Authority in behalfe of the Emperour Now to discouer more fully the Pamphleters falshood in his producing these two Italian Poëts Dante 's and Petrach as supposed by him to teach that the Pope is Antichrist and Rome Babilon I will heare proue from their owne wrytings the meere contrary to this his
points touching fayth and Religion and different from the then Roman fayth wherewith Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. were then charged would be professed beleâ—ued and mantayned in these dayes by the enemyes of the Church of Rome And therefore it necessarily followeth that the accusations passed in former times vpon Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest are either in generall true or in generall false If false then haue we no sufficient Records that there were any in those dayes who beleiued any points of protestancy If true then certayne it is that as Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. mantayned some points of protestancy so with all that they mantayned diuers explorate Heresies and acknowledged for such both by Catholicks and Protestants Secondly the Pamphleter obiected in the Catholicks name in this sort None of all those which hitherto haue beene named or can be named meaning for Protestants but in some knowne confessed and vndowbted Opinions did varye from you And therefore they and you Protestants may not be said to be all of one Church This difficulty he salueth with a most impudent and bare denyall saying All those whom before I haue named did generally for all mayne Matters teach the same Which we now teach What forhead or shame hath this Man For First as touching Waldo Wiclef Hus and their followers in whom through out this Pamphlet the Authour principally insisteth It is confessed by Osiander Luther Fox and other Protestants as also it appeareth by some of their owne Wrytings that they agreed with the Catholicks in most points of Catholicke Religion which were of greatest moment as in the Reall Presence seuen Sacrements praying to Saincts Purgatory frewill Merit of Works and in all other most principall Articles of the present Roman Religion Concerning the proufe of all which poynts I remit the Reader to the Former Dialogue Secondly touching other obscure Men alledged by the Pamphleter for Protestants he commonly and for the most part some two or three excepted exemplifieth no other Article of Protestancy defended by them then their disobedience and inueighing against the Bishop of Rome But if he could haue iustly auerred them for Protestants in all chiefe Articles why would he not as well particulary set the said Articles of Protestancy downe as he did the other touching their disclayming from the authority of the Bishop of Rome Ad hereto that many are produced for Protestants by this Authour only for their sharply speaking and writing against the manners and conuersation of the Cleargy in those dayes they not dissenting from the doctrine of the then Church of Rome in any one article whatsoeuer euer euen ackuowledging the Primacy of that Sea To all the former poynts I may adioyne this following Consideration That supposing the forsaid alledged Men were protestants in all poynts yet do they not proue the Visibility of the true Church of Christ for these Reasons ensuing First because they were but few in number and in regard of such their paucity the Predictions of the amplitude largnes and continuall splendour of Christ Church could not be performed in that small number Touching which predictions peruse the beginning of the Dialogue Secondly because neither this Authour nor any other Protestant liuing how learned soeuer can proue that there were in those tymes specified by this Pamphleter any Administration of the Word and Sacraments practized by any of these supposed Protestants which euer necessarily concurs to the existence and being of the true Church as is demonstrated in the former Tract Thirdly because the former Men could but serue for instances during their owne lyues and no longer The Pamphleter not being able to name any one Man for a Protestant for the space of many Ages and Centuryes together which poynt being so impugneth not only the Nature of Christs true Church which must at all tymes and ages be most visible but also it crosseth the Title of this Pamphlet wherein the Authour vndertaketh to proue the Visibility of his Church in all Ages Thus far now Good Reader I haue labored in surueighing this Idle Pamphlet Now for they better memory I will breifly recapitulate and repeate certaine chiefe impostures and deceatefull deportements practized by this Authour throughout his Booke And then I will remit both him and his Treatise to they owne impartiall Iudgment 1. First then I may remember his putting no name to his Booke nor taking any Notize of the then late Conference in London touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church nor once naming M. Fisher and M. Sweete the two then disputants Which concealed Cours our Pamphleter purposly affected in all probability seing otherwise he might well thinke that the setting of his owne Name downe especially if the Authour were either D. Whyte or D. Featly or hauing in this discours particular reference to the foresaid Disputation might sooner draw on an answere to his Pamphlet from one of the said two Fathers or from some other Priest 2. Secondly You may call to mynd that in the first part of his Treatise he laboreth to proue rather the Inuisibility of the true Church then the Visibilitie thereof contrary to the Inscription of his Pamphlet cheifly to intimate thereby that a continuall Visibility of the true Church is not so necessarily to be exacted as we Catholicks do teach it is and consequently that what few weake mayâ—ied and imperfect proufs and examples for the continuance of protestancy he was after to alledge the same might be thought sufficient and strong enough for the establishing of his owne Churches Visibility 3. Thirdly The pamphleter callengeth any one for a Protestant who did but hould one or two Articles of protestancy and especially if he did but impugne the Popes authority or did wryte against the Manners conuersation of the Cleargy of those dayes though otherwyse he did agree with the Church of Rome in all Articles of fayth 4. Fourthly He callengeth those for protestants who were condemned by the Church of Rome for other Errours then are mantayned by the protestants so making the ignorant Reader beleiue that the Pope in those dayes condemned only the doctrines of Protestants for Heresies this the pamphleter doth to the end that the number of the professours of his Church in those dayes might seeme the greater in his Readers eye 5. Fyftly he most cauteously concealeth the Catholicke doctrynes euer beleiued by Hus Wiclefe Waldo c. as also sic most falsly extenuateth such Heresies as they mantayned are acknowledged for Heresies euen by learned protestaÌ„ts The Treatizer subtelly forbearing to name or set downe in expres Words any one of their Heresies 6. Sixtly For want of better Authours he fleeth to the testimonyes euen of Poëts as Chaucer Daâ—â—es Petrarch vrging them for protestants only by reason of their Satyrs written against the supposed abuses of Rome 7. Seauently he most impertinently dilateth and spreadeth hymselfe in long and tedious discourses touching the increase of the Doctrine of Waldo Hus Wiclef
refuge enforced to compart hearein with the very Anâ—baptists fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture to the testimony of Gods Spirit and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost Sortably hearto we find that the foresaid D. Whitakers to reâ—er others to the Margent thus wryteth Omnes linguarum imperiti c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues though they cannot â—udge of places whether they be truly translated or not yet they apprâ—â—e and allowe the doctrine being instructed by the Holy Ghost Thus he O you sensles Galatians who haue bewitched you For may not any â—obler Wibstar or other Mecanical fellow as by experience we daily find they do flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy â—ho 〈…〉 Which being granted what Heresies so absurd which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne And thus far to proue that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments which resulteth as aboue is said by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ within which we are bound vnder payne of eternall damnation to implant our selses I will suâ—uect to thâ— Premisses this pertinent aâ—imaduersion following It is this When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church And they answeâ—riâ—g that that Church is the true Church which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments Now heare I auer that this description of Notes is but our owne question reâ—urâ—ed vs back in other tearms and consequently but a Sophisme â—â—nsistiâ—g in an idle circulation of the same poynt inâ—ested with a new forme of words For when I demand which is the true Church I vertually implicitly and according to the immediate meaning of my Words demauÌ„d which Church is that which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments The Protestants then answearing that that is the true Church whearein are foâ—d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments do they not giue me back my owne Question varyed in other phrazes being no other thing in sense then to say That Church which enioyeth the true preaching of the word due vse of the Sacraments is that Church which enâ—â—yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments Most absurde being but Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem iustly exibilated out of all schooles Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church Admonishing the Reader of one thing to wit that whereas S. Austin and other Doctours do say that out of the Scriptures we learne which is the Church This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture wheare the Church is but this not as from a Note of the Church which is the poynt only heare issuable but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be In this next place we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically and by supposall only That is we will imagin for the tyme that the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein Caluin thus saith Pastoribus Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours to preach the Word and administrâ—r the Sacraments Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words The ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary to the being of a Church Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme That the said Notes being present do constitute a Church being absent do subuert it Now all this being granted I confidently auer that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries since it irrephably proueth that the Protestant Church hath bene contrary to the Nature of the true Church at seuerall tymes or rather for seuerall ages together wholy extinct and annihilated Sine during many ages it hath bene vterly voyde depryued of Pastours and Doctourr to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the ProtestaÌ„t Church for many Ages concerning which subiect I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted â—ew out of which I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants First then Sebastianu Francus a Protestant heretofore alledged thus wryteth For certayne through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departuâ—e and for these thousand foure hundred yeres the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth We say that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the World In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church Caluin had iust reason as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true thus to say Factum est vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit c. It was brought to passe that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away for the space of certaine ages The perspicuity of which poynt I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages will more easely appeare if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell as taking his doctryne to be the truth The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell Thus we see that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes to wit the preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs assigning the said Notes for the Notes of the true Church Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare then the former poynt for seing it is granted that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church till the
end of World for the administration of the Word and Sacraments as not only D. Fulke and other learned Protestants do teach but also is euidently proued in the fore-said mentioned Second Part of the Conuerted Iew And seing an vnterrupted preaching of the Word and administratian of the Sacraments hath euer by the lyke Confession of our learned Aduersaries bene in our Catholicke Church Therefore it may inauoydably be concluded that either our Catholicke Church as euer enioying the former imposed Notes is the only true Church of Christ Or which is most absurd in it selfe and repugnant to infinit places of Holy Scripture that there hath beene for seuerall ages no true Church of Christ at all extant vpon the face of the Earth That the Catholicke Roman Church enioyeth the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments besides the euidency of the truth thereof other wise is confessed by D. Field who speaking of Luther and others acknowledgeth that they receaued from the Church of Rome their Baptisme Christianity Ordination and power of Ordination By Luke Osiander thus wryting Ecclesia que sub Papatufuic c. The Church which was vnder the Papacy when Luther was borne was the Church of Christ for it had the ministery of the Ghospell the sacred â—eriptures Baptisme the Lords supper c. and finally to omit many others by Luther himselfe thus acknowledging Nâ—s fatemaâ— c. We confesse that there is vnder the Papacy true Scrpture true Baptisime the true Sacrament of the Altar the true keres for the remission of Sinnes the true office of preaching true Catechisme Thus Luther And here with I end touching further discourse of this subiect remitting to the euen and impartiall censure the more sober Protestant whether the danger and detriment which fall vpon our Aduersaryes by erecting the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments for Markeâ— of Christs Church granting them for the tyme to be the marks thereof do not by many degrees ouerballance the aduantage which our Aduersaryes by pretending them for Notes do hope to gaine Since as by such their pretence they on the one side labour to reduce the knowing which is the true Church to their owne priuat Iudgments which euery learned and iudicious man at the first sight expoldeth for an impostute so on the other side they are forced euen by most necessary Inferences resulting out of their owne doctrine herein first to grant that the Protestant Church as for many ages by their owne acknowledgments wanting the said Notes being essentiall to the true Church hath for the sayd ages contrary to the Nature of Christs true Church beene vtterly extinct and not in being Secondly that during the sayd centuryes or ages our Catholicke Roman Church through it euer enioying of these Protestant Notes is the true Church or that otherwise there hath beene no true Church of Christ in all that great compasse of yeres Which last point to affirme is most repugnant to God sacred Writ That the Pope and Church of Rome may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometimes dispence with some degrees of Mariadge prohibited in Leuiticus And that in so dispensing the Law of Nature which euer bindeth is not violated or transgressed by them THE explanation of thâ— Question taketh it source from this one Proposition To wit All the preceps which are deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in mariadge do not bind Christians by deuyne law to obserue them Which proposition or sentence being once confirmed and fortifyed it then followeth that the Church of Christ and the Head thereof may vpon iust and most vrgent occasion dispense without any sinne with some degrees prohibited in Leuâ—â—icus For the better vnfoulding and vnderstanding of this one proposition we are first to conceaue that both the Catholicks and Protestants do teach That the precepts of Leuiticus do not oblige Christians as they are properly Leniticall that is as they are Positiue and Iudicâ—all but only as they are Naturall that is as they are prohibited by the law of Nature Now the Catholicks do further teach that as some preceps in Leuiticus are Naturall so some other preceps are not naturall but meerely iudiciall and therefore may be dispensed with by Christ his Church as the Councell of Trent affirmeth Whereas our Aduersaryes mantayne that all the precepts of Leuiticus are Naturall and therefore â—ich of them indispensable by the Church Now here we are to remember that those are Naturall precepts which are knowne for such only by the light of nature without any discourse or at least which are knowne for such by a most small discourse of Reason And these precepts are the same among all Men in all nations and tymes both for the knowledge of them and for the rectitude and iustnes of them Now such precepts as for the knowing of theÌ„ do neede supernaturall light are called Diuina positiua diuine Positions And those other Precepts which receaue their establishment by humane discourse from the Prince or Magistrate are styled Humana humana Constitutions and these are not the same among all men and in all nations Now then this iustly presupposed The first proposition to wit That all the Precepts deliuered in Leuiticus touching the degrees prohibited in Mariadge do not bynd Christians by diuine Law to obserue them Is proued First from the consideration of the different punishments appointed in the twentith of Leuiticus against those who transgresse in Maâ—iadge the different degrees prohibited in the eighteenth of Leuiticus Thus for example we there fynd that Mariadge contracted in the first degree of Affinity in the right line God punisheth with death and compareth it with adultery and sodomy Which are manifestly against the Law of Nature The same punishment of death is there apointed for such as marye in the first degree of Consanguinity in a collaterall line as when the Brother maryeth the Sister But now in the second degree of consanguinity in the collaterall line as when the nephew maryeth his Fathers sister or the Mothers sister this Mariadge is punished with a lesse and more gentill punishment In like sort mariadge in the first degree of Affinity in the collaterall line as when one maryeth the wife of his brother being dead and in the second degree to wit when the nephew maryeth the wife of his vncle is not punished with death of the parties so contracted but only with priuation of children That is that the children begotten in such a mariadge should not be asâ—rybed or reputed the childreÌ„ of their said patents Now this punishment euidently showeth that these mariadges are not prohibited by the Law of Nature since the light of Naturall Reason doth not dictate to all Men that the former chastisement is a iust punishment of the foresayd kind of mariadge Secondly the former proposition or sentence is thus prooued If all the precepts of Leuiticus touching the degrees of mariadge were ordayned by the
I am made partaker of all that feare the Lord. Now this former doctrine touching the sufferings of one to be applyed to an other being the vndoubted true and auncient doctrine of Christ Church vpon which ground Indulgances are builded it from hence appeareth how idly and impertinâ—ntly our aduersaryes do vrge some texts of Scripture to the contrary As where it is sayd The soule which sinneth â—â—en that shall dye And againe Euery one shall be are his owne burden And more No Man câ—â— redeeme his brother or giue a price to God for him All which texts are spoken of the state of eternall damnation and therefore impertinently alledged in which state a Man deparâ—eth out of this World but they are not spoken of temporall punishment only which is reserued after the guilt of eternall damnation is remitted which is the point here controuerted If it be vrged against this doctrine that the actions of the Saincts deceased were meritts to themselues and therefore cannot be applyed as satisfactions for others â—o this I answere that one and the same action may be in a different respect both meritorious and satisfactory Meritorious as it proceedeth from supernaturall grace satisfactory as it is performed with payne labour and difficulty According hereto we reade in Scripture that almeâ—deeds do both merit and satisfy for sinne For thus we reade Whosoeuer shall giue in my name a cup of cold water c. he shall not loose his reward Here is merit We also reade of Almeâ—deeds in this sort Almesdeeds deliuer vs from sinne and death and againe As water quencheth the fire so Almesdeeds extinguish sinne Here is satisfaction Here also we are to conceaâ—e that though the same action may be meritorious and satisfactory yet a man meriteth only for himselfe not for others but satisfy he may both for himselfe and for others only Christ our Sauiour hath merited both grace and glory for vs all and also hath satisfyed for the sinnes of all Men Yet the worth and price of his merites we can apply only to ourselues by our meritorious actions and not deriue it to any other but the benefit of his satisfaction we may deriue by our owne satisfactory works not only to our selues but also to others Where it is vulgarly objected that Iuduigences are oftentymes granted for more thousands of years then the World or Purgatory are like to endure and continue And that therefore they are ridiculously and foolishly granted I answere this argument proceedeth from meere Ignorance For heere the yeres are not to be vnderstood of the yeres or dayes of penall satisfaction which are to be imposed in Purgatory but of the number of yeres which were more or lesse in number proportioned according to the diuersity of the crime by the Canonicall Decrees of the Church And here we are further to know that God in the space and compasse of an houre or some such short time may by the bitter paynes of Purgatory expiate that which in this life a remisse and slow penance or satisfaction would scarce redeeme in the compasse of many yeres Now touching the antiquity of Indulgences we fynd them practized by S. Paul who thus sayth of the incestuous person Whom you haue pardoned I also pardon for that which I haue pardoned in the Person of Christ for you I haue done it that we be not circumuented of Satan Here now we are to remember that the incestuous person to whom the Indulgence was heere giuen being in great contrition and sorrow for his sinne was excommunicated by S. Paul who at the request of the Corinthians did release him of his excommunication for feare he might faule into dispayre Now in this example we find all things necessary to an Indulgence or Pardon As first the authority of the granter of the pardon to wit S. Paul who affirmes to do it in the person of Christ Secondly state of grace in the Receauer of the Indulgence as appeareth by his Contrition and sorrow for his sinne committed Thirdly the temporall punishment remitted to wit his Excommunication Lastly a iust sufficient cause for giuing this Indulgence or Pardon Which was lest the offendour should faule into dispayre or be ouerplunged in sorrow After the Apostles tymes we fynd that the Bishops of the Primatiue Church gaue pardons and Indulgences to many and this was done by the mediation of Confessours or designed Martyrs as is witnessed by Tertullian Cyprian We also find that Pardons and Indulgences were giuen by sundry â—â—opes in other ages as by Leo the third by Gregory the Great by Vrban the second by Innocentius the third by Paschalis the first and by others All which dispensed and distributed out of the common treasure of the Church Besides the former authorityes the doctrine and vse of Indulgencs is warranted by Councells both Generall and Prouinciall To wit the first Councel of Nice the Councell of Ancyran the Councell of Leodice the Councell of Claramontane the Councell of Lateran of Vienna of Constance and of Trente as appeareth in the Councells themselfs Now if the former auncient Popes and Fathers as also these alledged Councells should erre in the doctrine of Indulgences then two mayne absurdityes should follow first that the Primatiue Church should most fouly erre in a dogmaticall poynt of fayth contrary to the iudgment of the more sober Leared Protestants among whom I will for breuity heare set downe the iudgment only of Kempnitius touchâ—ng the Primatiue Church who thus saith I dowbt not but the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles and Apostolicall Men not only the text of Scripture but also the natiue sense thereof But this the Primatiue Church could not receaue if it wholy erred in so mayne a matter of Christian doctrine as the doctryne of Indulgences is The second Absurdity is that in regard of the said Fathers and Generall Councells defending the doctrine of Indulgences the whole Church of Christ supposing the doctrine to be faâ—se should erre in matter of fayth contrary to the Promise of Christ who hath promised euer to be with his Church till the end of the World which said Church of his is styled by the Apostle for it greater certainty of fayth columna firmamentum veritatis and therefore incompatible with errour And thus much concerning the doctrine of Indulgences ending this discours with the Confession of Kempnitius touching the antiquity thereof who plainly acknowledgeth and saith that the beginning of Indulgences is not clearely enough set downe in histories The Catholicke doctrine touching Communion vnder one Kynd defended THe true state of this question is not whether Christ did institute the Eucharist vnder both kynds Or whether hymselfe and the Apostles did at the first institution receaue it vnder both kynds Or whether the Apostles and the Fathers afterwards at sundry tymes did minister it to the Laity vnder both kynds for all this
errein such particular poynts But the Case 〈…〉 otherwyse When many of the cheife Pastours and Father 〈…〉 seuerall Ages of the Primatiue Church do concurrently teach a poynt of doctrine as an Article of fayth And that they are not contradicted by any other of the Fathers for their mantayning of the said doctrine And in this sort is the former doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse taught without any opposition at all not only by the former alledged Fathers but by many others or rather all othors for breuiuy heare omitted Now in this Case M. Vice-Chancelour we Catholicks do hould that such their doctryne so ioyntly by the Fathers taught without any contradiction is most agreable to Gods word For seing the Fathers of the Primatiue Church were in those dayes the cheife Pastours of Christs Church Yf they should ioyntly â—rreâ— in fayth then would it follow that the whole Visible Church of God should erre an assertion most repugnant to the promisse of our Sauiour Super hanc petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam Et portae Inferi non praualebant aduersus eam and to that honerable title giuen to the Church by the Apostle styling it columna firmamentum veritatis Now what reuerence and respect we are to giue to the Primatiue Church and how we are to conceaue of the authority of it I will for the closure of this passage referre you M. Vice-Chancelour to the sentences of your own Brethreh being most learned and remarkable Protestants from whose iudgment therefore herein you cannot without great branch of modesty decline First then we find Kempnitius thus to aduance the authority of the Primatiue Church We doubt not but that the Primatiue Church receaued from the Apostles Apostolicall Men not only the text of the Scripture but also the right and natiue sense thereof The confession of Bohemia thus magnifyeth the same The auncient Church is the true and best Mistres of Posterity and going before leadeth vs the way Finally D. Iewell is no lesse sparing in his prayses heereof saying The Primatiue Church which was vnder the Apostles and Martyrs hath e 〈…〉 r a been accounted the purest of all others without exception Such transcendency of speeches you see your owne more sober and learned Brethren are not afrayd to ascrybe to the Fathers of those primatiue tymes L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaas I grant you haue spoken fully in defence of your owne state and of the seuerall offices thereof practized by you Priests And though I will not say like to Agrippa h A little you haue persuaded me to become a Catholicke yet I must ingenuously acknowledge I neuer heard a cause of this Nature with stronger better arguments defended Yet for the more perfect balanâ—â—g and weighing the force of your authorityes my selfe not being conuersant in the written Monuments of the auncient Fathers I must remit this poynt to the more mature disquisition of our learned Deuins MICHAEAS Though your Lordship will not apply to your selfe the fore-said words of Agrippa yet I will make bould to reply to you such is my charitable wishing of your chiefest good in the phraze of S. Paul to Agrippa I wish to God both in little much that your L. were such as I am except this my wat of liberty But my worthy Lord. Here now begmneth the Tragedy of the disconsolate and mournefull state of Priests and Catholicks in this Country You haue heard my L. of the Antiquity of Priesthood of the like antiquity of the Sacrament of Confession and Pennance and lsstly of the antiquity of the most holy sacrifice of the Masse And yet notwithstanding all this it is decreed as your L. well knowes by the pennall lawes of this Country that Priesthood shal be Treason the releiuing of any one such Priest death to the Releiuer Confession of our sinns to a Priest and absolution of them reputed to be in the Penitent a renouncing of his Loyalty and the hearing of Masse attended on with a great fine of siluer And thus by these means euery good Priest and Catholicke are at the first sight become Statute traytours And indeed such is the case heere that neither Priest nor Catholicke can with safety of conscience giue any yeelding obedience and satisfaction to the Magistrate touching those lawes since here not to offend were to offend Obedire oportet Dee magis quam hominibus And touching my selfe and other Priests in particular your L. is to take notice that not speaking of our Blessed Sauiour who was the first Priest nor of his Apostles succeeding him therein most of the auncient Fathers were Priests enioying the same Priesthood practizing the same function in hearing of Confessions absoluing the Penitents saying of Masse which the meanest Priest of England at this day doth Therefore your Lordship may truly suppose That before you at this present stand arraigned only for being Priests exercizing that their function S. Austin S. Ambrose S. Ierome S Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Chrysostome S. Ignatius and many more of those primatiue blessed Doctours What I am they were I stand but here as their Image and they are personated in me Neither can you impleade or condemne me but that your sentence must through my sides wound them so indisâ—oluble an vnion there is betweene their stares myne no other difference betwene vs but difference of tymes But my good Lord. To passe on further to the despicable detected state of Lay Catholicks a theame not vnseasonable at these tymes I will not insist in particularizing the pennall statuts decreed agaynst them Neuerthelesle my tongue vnder your L. licence can hardly pretermit one point in silence Among then so many Calamityes and vexations wherewith on eich syde they stand plunged Not any one pressure is more insufferable to them or more opprobâ—â—ous in the eares of strangers who are ready to trumpet forth the same to the irreparable dishonour of this noble Nation otherwise famous throughout all Christendome Then to obserue the houses of Catholicks to lye open to the search of the Common base Pusuâ—uants Who vnder colour of looking for a Priest do enter their houses at most vnseasonable tymes euen by force And there opening their Trunks Chests perusing their Euidences of their Estats taking the Maysters of the houses bound in great sommes of money for their after appearance in Courts of Iustice and violently breaking downe what may seeme to withstand their present furye do by strong hand cary away any gold siluer Iewells Plate or any other portable thing of worth And all this vnder the pretext of them being forfeyted through Recusancy And the least resistance agaynst these men here made is punished as an Act of Disloyalty Neither are any English Catholicks the Nobility excepted free from these Indignityes the dead pittylesse law herein promiscuously taking hold of all without difference Now my Honorable Lord Is it not a thing deseruing astonishment
to cast vp some earth of innouations and noueltyes comparting perhapps in some one or two points with the sectarâ—es of these dayes But to iustify in those men the visibility of the Protestant Church or that they were Protestants which is at this present the poynt only issuable I hould it impossible Except we will dreame that those persons did pertake of the nature of the planet Mercury which euer participateth as the Astrologers teach of all the influences of that other starre or planet with which it is in any sort in coniunction Be it then that some Innouatours in seuerall Centuryes haue contumactously defended some one or other Theoreme or principle without which the entyre frame of Protestancy cannot subsist Will any of you from hence conclude and yet many Protestants do so conclude that such Mens Religion was perfect Protestancy By the like reason you may inferre to insist in similitudes within your owne spheare that Vnity is a Number a Poynt Quantity an Instant Tyme Wheras you know well that these are only beginnings or Elements of Number Quantity and Tyme and without which these later can haue no being In regard then of such want of visible Protestants informer tymes It is lesse wounder that some Protestant wryters haue thought good to Idëate frame in their myndâ— a certayne mathematicall and airy Church within which a number only of supposed inuisibilities are comprehended Thus much touching this second Dialogue to the which I haue thought good to subnect as an Appendix a short view taken of an Anonymous and froathy Pamphlet entituled A Treatise of the perpetuall visibility and succession of the true Church in al Ages written some few yeares since and set forth as is supposed by Doctour Featly Now in this last place to come to the third and last Dialogue The subiect whereof is to manifest that the Protestants by many degrees stand more iustly chargeable both with the doctrine and practise of disloyalty agaynst their lawfull Princes then the Catholiks do And that the Protestants haue therefore small reason and lesse policy to vpbrayde in their pulpits and writings as it is their accustomed Scene to doe the Catholicks with any such hatefull cryme In this last Dialogue are also seuerall insertions of some small Treatises in defence of diuers Catholike doctrines The Interlocutours in this Dialogue are the right Honorable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England to whom all dutifull comportment is borne throughout this Discourse Michaeas the former Iew and M. Vice-Chancelour of Oxford That the Vice-Chacelour is therein introduced to be partly malignant agaynst Michaeas as charged by him besides with other offences for being a Catholike Priest is not strange considering how splenfull some Vice-Chancelours of that Vniuersity haue borne themselues towards certayne Priests there heretofore apprehended Thus farre particularly of the different subiects of these ensuing Dialogues Which point is more largly set downe in the Arguments of euery one of them Now most illustrious Men I haue presumed and I hope this my presumption will in your fauourable construction be warrantable to dedicate this whole worke to your selues not for your patronage thereof for that only it owne worth If any be in it must effect but partly because you are best able to iudge of the arguments produced on eyther side and partly in regard I haue selected out of eyther of your Vniuersities one of the most pryme and choysest men in their dayes to be speakers in these Dialogues I meane as aboue is sayd Doctour Whitakers and Doctour Reynolds I could wish you would not sleight it through a cold seuerity proceeding from a forestauled iudgment against the Catholike fayth in generall but peruse it indifferently and weigh the authorityes and reasons withall Candour and impartiality Touching my owne sincerity vsed throughout this labour know you that if I haue purposely and deliberatly detorted from it true meaning but any one authority here produced by me then let my forhead be publikly seared with an indeleble Stigma or print of shame and Confusion No. He is not Religious who handleth Religion with fraud and impostures And I am so free and guiltles herein as that I dare vaunt my selfe to be in this respect a Tetragonon cast me vp what way you will my demeanour in this case will proue eauen squared Do not expect any Oratory here but what the force of vnauoydable Demonstrations can perswade And in this sence I trust I may without vanity say you shall find Oratory Since Truth is euer eloquent But now most celebrious Academians giue me leaue to turne my pen more particularly to your selues and pardon this my boldnes it proceeding solely out of my charitable affection and out of my desire of aduancing your spirituall Good for you are Our Epistle written in our harts Well then you are learned and therefore if grace assist the more able to transpierce through any difficulties of Fayth now questioned Suffer not then your Iudgements to be enthralled to the iudgments of some few men among you more eminent then the rest they being Byrds whose Aery is but in the high Cedars of the pretended reuealing Spirit since through their assumed priuiledge therof they are not ashamed to reduce the construction of Scripture and the weight of all authorityes whatsoeuer to the Tribunall of their owne Censure scornfullly contemning whatsouer passeth not vnder the fyle of their owne approbation But to proceed forward It is a thing wounderfull and indeed deplorable to obserue the the exorbitancy of most Schollers proceedings and perhapps of diuers of you in these poynts I meane to see what labour and toyle they bestowe in humane studyes and how remisse they are in search of true fayth I assure my selfe that many of you haue indefatigably spent much tyme in seeking to know Whether the Opinions of Copernicus touching the Motion of the Earth and standing still of the sunn and Primum Mobile can be made probable Whether a Concentrike Orbe with an Epicycle or an Excentrike Orbe alone can better salue the Phaynomena and irregular Apparences of the Planetts Whether ech Orbe be moued a Propria Intelligentia or ab interna forma Whether supposing Infinitum to be in Rerum natura One Infinitum can be greater then an other Which poynt some Philosophers exemplify in the infinit reuolutions of the Sunne and the Moone the Moone performing her course twelue or 13. tymes in that space in which the Sunne doth but once And yet both their reuolutions must be infinit in Number if one will grant with Aristotle that the world was ab aeterno Whether Corpus Sphaericum tangit planum only in puncto What is the cause why the Sea keepeth a different course in it ebbing flowing in different Countreyes though to those seuerall Countreyes the Moone beareth one and the same aspect of it light Whether when the loadstone draweth iron vnto it this be effected through a naturall Sympathy of these two Bodyes or
nature of a glasse which is as ready to giue as to receaue on s fauour My foundation is here the words of your owne Apostle I humbly entreate that your learned discourses would raise the wales and I shall attend your speeches with a greedy and listning eare Then in the close of all I may be better assured whether for my Soules eternall felicity I should subiect my selfe as a member to the present Church of Rome or otherwise consociate my selfe with the Protestants the presumed Reformers of the said Church CARD BELLARM. Micheas your iudgment hath made choise of a most important subiect and Christian Religion teacheth vs to be benificiall to all maximè domesticis fidei within which number I hope shortly I may place you And therefore my paines according to my smale ability shall not be wanting to accomplish your request and I much commend your desire herein for who neglecteth his owne Soule is not present to himselfe D. WHITAKERS The Groundworke Micheas of this your desired disputation I acknowledg most firme and I shal be ready to afford my best furtherāce therto though in regard of my owne smale mite of learning I shal be like perhapps to the widdow in the Chospel who gaue lesse then any other and yet was more charitable then any other But touching the Basis and foundation of this future Discourse We do grant that the Church of Rome was holy when Paule gaue it those foresaid praises as also when he further said without intermission I make mention of you alwaies in my prayers When also he said He would come to the Romans in aboūdance of the blessing of Christ and when in freedome he did preach to them the Ghospel of Christ Yea which is more We freely confesse that the Cuhrch of Rome was a famous Church of Christ when Clemence did sit in that seate and when the prophane Roman Caesars did put to death the Bishops of Rome But since those times that most remarkable change of Faith haue violently inuaded and posessed that Church I will vndertake to prooue neither will I draw backe herein but shal be prepared to manifest to you how since the Apostles times the Roman Wolues haue inuaded the Church and ceased not to deuoure the flocke for the badges of the Roman Church are superstition Infidelity Antichrist and Epicurisme CARD BELLARM. How now M. Doctour Such passion in the beginning what Philippicks and inuectiue declamations are these the accustomed lāguage of most of our new illuminated Brethren not sorting to your presumed grauity Therefore either forbeare the like hereafter or let vs forbeare to enter into any dispute for I do not loue to conuerse with those Men whose tongues are vsed to speake nothing but Satyrs D. WHITAKERS My Lord. my feruour to the Ghospel hath thus transported me The zeale of thy howse hath eaten me vp But pardon for euer this my holy impatience and I will promise you to proceede hereafter in all serenity and mildnes and will prooue the change of Religion in the Church of Rome not by conuitiating it with intemperate language but with weight of argument CARD BELLARM. You say well And therefore In the name of the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost let vs beginne And here first M. Doctour you are to remember that seing you affirme that Religion is changed in the Church of Rome since that Church was first as it were cultiuated tilled therewith by the labour of the Apostles you are thereby obliged to prooue this your assertion And I as houlding the Negatiue am bound only to answere and to repell your arguments Neuerthelesse I will supererogate with you in methode herein and will vndertake to prooue posituely that Rome since it first being Christian did neuer speake of so much as any on materiall and dogmaticall Article which is the point in question of her primatiue Faith Now for the greter conuinceing of your contrary position I meane to strengthen and fortifie the truth herein euen from the testimonies of your owne learned Men and thus the Protestants penns shall deadly wound the Protestants Faith Therefore tell me M. Doctour if you will quietly subscribe in this time of disputation to the ingenious and plaine Confession of your owne learned and iudicious Brethren D. WHITAKERS Most willingly for the argument must needs be strong and efficatious which is taken from the confession of the Aduersaries and I do freely acknowledg that the Truth is able to extorte testimonies euen frō it Enemies And this point is further warranted with all force of reason for why should learned men confesse against themselues and in behalfe of their Aduersaries were it not that the racke of an vndeniable Truth forceth them theirto CARD BELLARM. It is most true and the matter so standeth indeede and your speech well sorteth to that sentence of S. Augustine to wit That truth is more forcible to wringe out Confession then any racke or torment well then to proceede to the matter And because things contracted in method enter more easily after a piramic all manner as I may say into the eye of the vnderstanding Therefore for the more facilitating of this point here handled you are to coceiue M. Doctour that in any notable change of Religion these things following can be demonstrated and pointed out First the Authour of such a Change Secondly the new opinion or doctrine Thirdly the time in which this new doctrine was first broahed or preached Fourthly the place in which it was taught Fiftly and lastly the persons who did oppugne and resist it at the first All which are found euen in the Church of Christ which neuerthelesse was no new Church but only a certaine mutation or change of the state of the Church according to the predictions of the Prophets For first we knowe the authour thereof was Christ The new Articles of beleefe were principally the Articles of the Trinity and Incarnation the time when this doctrine was first preached was in the fifteenth yeare of Tyberius Caesar The place Iudëa finally the oppugners of it were the Scribes and Pharises Now whereas we are able to demonstrate all these points in the beginning of euery particular sect or Heresie our Aduersaries notwithstanding cannot set downe any one of these circumstances concerning our Church or Faith euer since the Apostles times But because of all these Circumstances the Time of this supposed chāge is chiefly to be weighed I will begin therewith remitting diuers of the other Circumstances to be hereafter discussed by vs and leuing the rest for greater breuity to some other fitting opertunity And as touching the Circumstances of Time I will first discourse therof by meanes of a distribution of three distinct times since Rome first receaued the Ghospel of Christ First then we will take into our consideration how longe it is granted by your Protestants that Rome did perseuer without any alteration in her prematiue
except the name Catholicks which was euen in the Primatiue Church the surname of all Christians according to that Christianus mihi nomen est Catholicus vero cagnomen Illud me nuncupat istud me osteÌ„dit though the contrary we can shew of you who haue the names giuen to you of Lutherans Caluenits Besits c. Therfore it clearely followeth that the Professours of the present Roman Church haue neuer changed their Fayth first planted by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Now my L. Cardinall you are foiled with your owne argument For haue you not the name of Papists peculiarly appropriated to your selues to distinguish you from the true professours of the ghospel In like sort are not some of your religious Men called Bernardins others Franciscans Benedictins Augustins c. so taking their appellation from particuler Men and thus your owne argument rebutteth vpon your selfe with great disaduantage Therfore my Lord be not so confident aforehand in the force of your alleaged reasoÌ„ but remember that Thraâ—y's prò'erysóù ' ec pollóù cacòs who is euer bould before the worke is attempted is commoÌ„ly indiscreete CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour You so seriously here trifle as that I euen blush in your behalfe to obserue how you wroÌ„g yourfollowers and Proselits with such weake transparency of reasons For you are here to vnderstand that the Surnames of Peculiar Hereticks as the Arians Eutichians Maniches and of all others were imposed vpon the Professours of these Heresies euen at the first beginning and rising of the sayd Heresies and were inuented out of necessity to distinguish their Heresies from all other Doctrines but now the word Papist M. Doctour was coyned but lately by Luther himselfe against vs this not out of necessity but of reproach our Fayth and Doctrine being acknowledged aboue by your leaned Brethren to haue bin in the world many hundred yeares before Luthers dayes Agayne the Word Papist is not restrained to any one Pope or any peculiar Doctrine taught by the present Church of Rome but it is indifferently extended to all Popes and all doctrines taught by the sayd Popes so fowly M. Doctour are you mistaken in alleadging the name Papist against vs and so much do you and other Protestants wrong vs euen for that very name we vndergoing herein by your Brethrens calumnies the like misfortune which Collatinus Tarquinius suffered who was depriued of his honours and subiect to disgrace and reproach by the Romans only for the hatefull name of Tarquinius Touching those names of Franciscans Bernardins Benedictans c. It is so cleare that these names are not imposed for change of Fayth but only for institution of seueral degrees of a vertuous and religious life as that I will answere you in your former Brother D. Feild his words who thus solueth this your obiection We must obserue that they who professe the Fayth of Christ haue bin sometymes in these later ages of the Church called after the special names of such Men as were the Authours beginners and deuisers of such courses of Monastical Profession as they made choyse to follow as Benedictans such like Thus D. Feild MICHEAS I thinke M. Doctour vnder yonr fauour that these your instances of names taken from the first institutours of seueral religious Orders in the Church of Christ do not imply any change of Fayth made by them and therefore the force of my L. Cardinal his argument borrowed from new imposed appellations is not weakned but rather fartified by this your reply My Reason is this in our Iewish Law we read that ther were some called Rechabits and others Nazarites both professing a more strict course of life then the vulgar and common people did In like sort Iosephus and Philo report much of the austerity of the Essenes among vs Iewes who in regard of such their peculiar Profession were called Essenes and to whom God vouchsafed many spiritual fauours and consolations Happy men since he is most fit to walke vpon the hight of celestial contemplation who liueth in the vale of a voluntary humility retyrednes and mortification In whom the fyre of the spirit doth euer extinguish the fire of the flesh and sensuality thus the greater heare putting forth the lesse heate Now shal any man thinke that these men instituted a Fayth and Religion different from that of Moyses It is both absurd to entertayne such a thought and withall it is a wrong and dishonour to the Law of Moyses And in my iudgment both these instances of the Old Testament produced by me and those other of the Franciscans c. obiected by you M. Doctour in a true and eauen libration of theÌ„ do prooue that which my L. Cardinal first endeauoured to prooue from the imposition of new Names For they manifest the seueral changes and alterations which were made both in the old Testament and the new touching a more austere profession of a vertuous life which was the subiect of those changes as these other new imposed names of Arians Nestorians Maniches and the rest aboue specified do necessarily euict a change first made in Doctrine by Arius Nestorius Manicheus c. But my L. Cardinall if you wil enlarge your selfe no further vpon this poynt I humbly intreate you to proceed to some other argument CARD BELLARM. Learned Micheas I wil proceed to that which at this instant shal be my last though for weight and force it might wel take the first place And it shal be taken M. Doctour from the first plantatioÌ„ of Christianity in your owne Country which though immediatly it concerneth but one Nation yet potentially it prooueth that ther was no change of Fayth at all made in the Church of Christ in any former tymes by the Professours of the present Roman Religion But here M. Doctour I am to demand your iudgment touching the times in which and the Person by whom the Britons of Wales were first conuerted to the Christian Fayth D. WHITAKERS All we Protestants agree that the Britons of Wales whre conuerted in the Apostles tyme by Ioseph of Aramathia and this we prooue not only form the authority of Sainct Bede who did write the history therof in the yeare 724. but also from the authority of our Principal Historiographers for thus M. Cambden our learned Countryman writeth Certum est Brit 〈…〉 in ipsa Ecclesiae infantia Christianâ—m Religionem imbibisse It is Certaine that the Britons receaued the Christian Religion euen in the infancy of the Church Who thus further discourseth of this Poynt In hac floruit Monasterium GlastenburieÌ„sis c. Here florished the Monastery of GlasteÌ„bury which taketh it ancieÌ„t beginning from Ioseph of Aramathia c. for this is witnessed by the most ancient Monuments of this Monastery c. nether is there any reason Why we should doubt therof Thus far M. Cambden with whom conspire all other Chroniclers as Harrison in his description of Britanny and others Yea of vs
RomanaÌ„ speculationem suam toti orbi indicere Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world Now by all this here deliuered M. Doctour you may see whether or no Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop as the word is taken in a sober and in the Latter aboue mentioned construction And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate which is so often enforced and vrged though with extreame wilfull or at least ignorant mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours MICHEAS Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest and therfore seeing the tyme of the new Testament is much superiour to the tyme of the Law I do not see but now in theiyme of Grace there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ and consequently the acknowledgmeÌ„t of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe CARD BELLARM. Michaeas you speake according to the Truth and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach who wryte thus thereof The high Priest of the Iewes was typically and in a figure the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth saying That forme of gouerment which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferioâ—r to Moâ—ses is an impious vngodly and vnlawfull gouerment contrary to the Word c. But M. D. proceede on further D. VVHITAKERS Our best Controuersists which as I may terme them aâ— the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers do teach that touching your Sacrament of Confession Innocentius the Third was the first that instituted auricular Confession for necessary Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since so late and fresh yow fee your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is And admitting this yonr Article touching Confession were not so new but for more ancient yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle since we are to call to minde that Haereses nonâ—am Nouitas quam veritas reuincit CARD BELLARM. I graunt willingly that many of your Controuersists among whom I also raÌ„ge yourfelfe are accounted meÌ„ of learning And therefore I rest the more amazed to see yow here perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth obiect this example to vs for Nouelty But I feare your and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours and misstakings for warrantable Truths and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities We finde S. Bernard who liued before Innocentius the third thus to wryte of this point Sed dicis sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri c. But thou saiest it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God because a Preist without him cannot absolue me from my sinnes To Which thy argument not I but S. Iames answereth Confesse your sinnes one to an other But to ascend higher S. Leo. who liued anno 440. describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt thus saith Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church that they should impose penance vpon them that confessed their sinnes that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction might be admitted by Way of reconciliation to the communion of the Sacraments In lyke sort S. Basil S. Leo his ancient discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein and teaching that a Ghostly Father in tymeof CoÌ„fession is an other from himselfe thus writeth Necessariò peccata eis aperiri debeÌ„t c. Our sinns are necessarily see heere the Necessity of Confession to be opened to those to whoÌ„ the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giueÌ„ for indeede we find that all the AncieÌ„ts did follow this course in Penance To be breife Cypryan and Tertullian of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession are charged by your owne Centurists to teach priuate Confession and this euen of thoughts and lesser sinnes and that such Confession was then commanded and thought necessary Thus far of this point Where by the way I must tell you that since protestaÌ„cy had it first source froÌ„ sence and sensuality the lesse wounder it is that Confession of sinnes made to a preist being so vngratfull to mans nature should be so vnpleasing to all protestants and so basely esteemed of for we all know that the water will ascend no higher then is the leuell of its first spring MICHNS I must acknowledg that our AncieÌ„t Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist Galatinus who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings our continual practise therof Adde hereto that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns and offences how could the Priest know what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer except he knew the particular sinne for which it is to be offered Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof seing there is no reasoÌ„ why now in the New Testament it should be wholy abrogated I cannot be induced to think that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation and change different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Your doctrine of Transubstantiatinn was first inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran for before that tyme not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation CARD BELLARM. Good God how poore and needy in proofe are you M. Doctour For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is that if you insist in the word Transubstantiation wee grant that it was first inuented and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence in the councell of Lateran But then this is but a verball litigation of you for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before And still you allow M. Doctour by reseÌ„blance this illation as good and necessary The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis was first inuented in the Councell of Nice to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice Idly and inconsequently concluded Therfore M. Doctour let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe and to omit that S. Augustine sayth vocatur caro quod non capit caro And in another place
quid gratius offerri aut suscipi possit quà m caro Sacrificii nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri We are here to remember that this Councell of Lateran was holden in the yeare 1215. In which were assembled the Patriarchs of Ierusalem and Constantinople 70 Metropolitan Bishops 400. Bishops and 800. Conuentuall Priours Now can it enter into any braine to thinke that all these learned Men being gathered together from all the seuerall places of the world and many of them neuer seeing diuers of the rest till they were there met should all ioyntly embrace as an innouation and afore neuer heard of a doctrine so contrary to sense and fleshly vnderstanding It is incompatible with common reason to beleeue that such a generall Errour could so suddenly inuade and possesse the iudgments of so many learned Prelates But to demonstrate the antiquity of the Doctrine of Transubstantiation in which sacred Mistery the eye of Faith seeth things inuisible It is confessed by M. Fox that about the yeare of our Lord 1060. the denying of Transubstantiation began to be accoumpted an Heresy and the professours therof Heretickes and in that number was first one Berengarius who liued about the yeare 1060. Now then if the denying of the doctrine of Transubstantiation was accoumpted an Heresy more then a hundred yeares afore the CouÌ„cell of Lateran was assembled how could the doctrine of TransubstaÌ„tiation take it first beginning at that Councel Who seeth not the impossibility hereof Againe how could that doctrine in the times set downe by M. Fox be denyed and impugned except it were then afore beleeued and maintained But to proceede to higher times Doth not D. Humfrey confesse that Gregory the Great who liued fiue huÌ„dred yeares and more before the Councell of Lateran first brought into England the Doctrine of Transubstantiation saying In Ecclesiam vorò quid inuexerunt Gregorius Augustinus inâ—ulerunt c. Transubstantiationem Againe your owne Centurists thus speake of Eusebius Emissenus an ancient Father Eusebius Emissenus pâ—rùm commodè de Transubstantiatione dixit And of Chrisostome your foresayd Brethren thus write Chrysostomus Transubstantiationem videtur confirmare Chrysostome doth seeme to confirme Transubstantiation The Antiquity of which Doctrine is so great that Adamus Francisci a learned Protestant thus acknowledgeth Transubstantiation did enter early into the Church Now M. Doctour how do all these liberall confessions of so many eminent Protestants stand with your assertion to wit that the doctrine of Transubstantiation was first inuented in the Later an Councell And consequently that the Church of Christ suffered at that time a most remarkeable change and alteration in so sublime an Article MICHEAS The Doctrine of the Reall Presence taught by the Church of Rome in respect of the Sacrifice there performed is most conformable to the Prophesies of the ancient Iewes for to omit the Sacrifice of Melchisadech which many did teach to prefigure the Sacrifice which was to be exhibited after the comming of the Messias we finde most of our ancient Rabbins to be of this minde Accordingly hereto we read that Rabby Iudas thus writeth The bread shal be changed when it shal be sacrificed from the substance of bread into the sacrifice of the body of the Messias which shall descend from Heauen and himselfe shal be the sacrifice With Which Rabby to omit diuers others Rabby Symeon agreeth in these words The Sacrifice which after the Messias his comming Priests shall make c. they shall make it of bread wine c. And that sacrifice which shal be so celebrated on the Altar shal be turned into the Body of the Messias So conspiringly M. Doctour we see did our ancient Iewes before Christs birth by way of PredictioÌ„ teach with the prsent Roman Church touching the Reall Presence and the sacrifice performed therin And therfore it is the more straÌ„ge to me that the Doctrine of the Reall Presence and of the Sacrifice should be reputed by you as an â—nnouatioÌ„ lately brought into the Church of Rome for I must needs thinke that Christ himselfe did first institute the same And thus I beleeue that though in our Law Isaack was externally offred vp though not Sacrificed Yet now in the New Testament the Messias is daily Sacrificed though not externally offered vp D. WHITAKERS My Lord Cardinall To passe from the Doctrine it selfe of the Reall Presence or TransubstaÌ„tiation Yet how can you excuse from Nouelisine those phrases touching the Sacrament of the Eucharist first inuented by Pope Nicolaus the second to wit that the body of Christ is sensibly handled broken and chewed with the teeth So grossely do you Romanists teach herein as to maintaine a Doctrine which hath nothing to plead for it but only some few hundreds of yeares CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour You now carry your selfe like a cowardly Mastiâ—ie pardon this my homely similitude which not being able to take any strong and firme hold at the head of his enemy is glad in the end to catch at the flanck or other the hindermost parts So you seing you cannot truly charge the Doctrine it selfe of the Reall presence with innouation are content to quarrell and snatch at certaine phrases and words vsed by some Doctours about the said Doctrine But to your obiection Which once granting the truth of the Reall Presence is meerely verball Therefore I say that these phrases are taken in a sober and restiained construction That is they are immediatly to be referred to the formes of Bread and Wine vnder which the body bloud of Christ do lye Now that these phrases were not first coyned by this Pope Nicolaus as you auerre it is euident out of the writings of S. Chrysostome who liued many ages before this Pope Nicolaus This Father in one place thus writeth Christ suffered fraction or breaking in the oblation which he would not suffer vpon the Crosse And in an other place more fully saying ipsum vides ipsum targis ipsum comedis And yet more expresly Non se tantum videir permittit desider antibus sed et tangi et manancari et denies carni suae infigi Christ doth not only permit himselfe to be scene of those who desired to see him but also to be touched and eaten by them and theire teeth to be fastened in his flesh Thus we see that S. Chrysostom was not afraid to vse the foresaid phrases in a reserued sence which you make so capitall heinous We may adioyne hereto that Iacobus Andreas a famous Protestant but a Lutheran answereth this very obiection which you father vpon Pope Nicolaus as the first inuentor of the former phrazes and thus concludeth thereof saying This obiection taken from Pope Nicolaus nihil continet quod inscriptis Orthodoxorum Patrum Chysostomi in primisâ— non continetur D. WHITAKERS I will not be long in reciting Innouations of strange Doctrins introduced into the Church of Rome since the
Apostles times Therefore I will end with the Instance of the fast of Quatuor Temporum which was first ordained by Pope Calixtus CARD BELLARM. The Vessell M. Doctour from whence you draw these Instances seemes to runne very low and nere the dreggs Seeing for want of examples for change in dogmaticall points of faith you are forced at the last to descend to the Institution of set times of fasts For what is this to the alteration of Faith and Religion in the Church of Rome in any dogmaticall Article which is the point only to be insisted vpon by you Hath not the Church of Christ authority to appoint fasting dayes The Apostles you know did lawfully command all men to forbeare from eating of bloud and of things strangled and may not the Church succeeding them as lawfully command that at certaine times of the yeare and for some few dayes the Christians shall for beare from eating of fleash and vse a more moderate dyet But it seemes you loue not to feede vpon superstitious Popish fish since many of you accoumpt it so Now as touching the antiquity of this fast of Quatuor TemporuÌ„ Where you say it was first ordained by Calixius you grant hereby that it is aboue fourteene hundred yeares since it first institution for Calixtus was the next successour but one to Pope Victor which Victor liued in the yeare of our Lord and Sauiour one hundred and sixty Thus you are more preiudized then aduantaged by prostituting this your sily supposed Innouation I will annex hereto that whereas M. Doctour you do not produce any ancient authour charging Calixtus with the first beginning of this Fast we on the contrary side can alleadge S. Leo ascribing it to proceede from the Doctrine of the Holy Ghost his words are these following Ecclesiastica ieiunia ex doctrina Sancti Spiritus ita per totius anni circulum distribura sunt And thus much touching the Antiquity and lawfulnes of the Past of Quatuor Temporum whereof you see M. Doctour your owne bare assertion excepted no certaine beginning can be knowne since the Apostles dayes But Sir proceede further in other instances if so you can D. WHITAKERS Touching further multiplicity of examples I will not much labour The time is already spent And I hope my former examples notwithstanding your subtill euading of them are able to sway with all such who are truly illuminated with the spirit of the Lord. CARD BELLARM. I beleeue you well You will not labour further therin the true reason being because you cannot For I haue perused your bookes written against Duraeus wherein you cheifly instaÌ„ce touching the chaÌ„ge of the faith of Rome and your other Bookes against Father Campian that blessed Martyr as also your writings against my selfe and I can finde no other instances of this imaginary change insisted by you then these alleadged Yea when the said Father Campian as most confident of no change of Faith in the Church of Rome did most earnestly prouoke you Protestants to name the time and other circumstances accompanying this supposed change in those his vehement and inforcing Interrogations QuaÌ„do hanc fideâ—tant opore celebratum Roma perdidit quardo esse desiâ—t quod antefuit quo tempore quo Pontifice qua via qua vi quibus incrementis Vrbem et Orbem Relgio peruasit aliena quas voces quas turbes quae lamenta progenuit Omnes orbe reliquo sopiti sunt dum Roma Roma inquaÌ„ noua Sacramenta nonum Sacrificium nouum Religionis dogma procuderet You though thus a wakened yet in your answere hereto only dwells in your former example of Pope Siricius aboue refuted touching the single life of Priests in place of further satisfaction you thus reply to the said Father Campian Tuverò si dubitas an desierit meaning whether Rome had changed it Religion potes etiam si vis dubitare ansul meridie splendeat Can any man not blinded with preiudice thinke that if you had any materiall proofes for it change being a point of the greatest consequence that is betweene you and vs but that you being thus extremely importâ—ned would haue particularly iusisted in them and would haue enlarged such your reply with all reading wit learning possible And as for your former Instances they are most impertinent and in themselues most false as is aboue demonstrated they being wâ—res I presume wholy wrought in the shop of your owne braine like the spiders web which is spinned out of her owne Bowels MICHEAS M. Doctonr you must giue me leaue to tell you that your Instances aboue vrged do not much sway my iudgment first because they are not in number past some nine or ten in all of which foure do concerne only the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and two the doctrine of the Reall Presence so as it may be iustly coniectured that you Produced seuerall instances for one doctrine purposely therby to make shew in this your so great a scarcity of greater number of Examples The rest concerne Priests nor marying Purgatory auricular Confession and the fast of Quauor Temporum Which doctrines are few in respect of the many controuerted points as I am enformed betweene the Church of Rome and the Protestants Therfore I must presume that no instances can be but suggested or imagined to be giuen of the change of the Church of Rome touching the doctrines of the Visibility of the Church of Praying to Saints of Free-will Merit of workes Workes of supererogation Indulgences Monachisme Lymbus patruÌ„ Images the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament Communion only vnder one kind Vninersallity of Grace the Necessuy and vertue of the Sacraments Inherent iustice the knowledge of Christ a man His being God of God and diuers others Secondly in that touching your former Instances some of the sayd doctrines are so agreeable to the practise of our Iewish Synagogue and the iudgments of our learned Rabbyes as I haue shewed as that I can hardly repute them as Innouations D. WHITAKERS The vnanimous agreement of the Church of Rome with you Iewes in some of the former doctrines is of smale force seeing you well know Micheas that the Law was to be abrogated at the comming of the Messias MICHEAS It is granted that our Law at the comming of the Sauiour of the world was to be disanulled so far forth as concerne either sacrifices or other Ceremonies which did prefigure the comming of the Messias yet seeing many dogmaticall points of faith beleeued by the Iewes haue no reference to his comming as the foresaid doctrines of Purgatory Confession of sinns c. therfore there can be no reason alleadged why the beleife of them in the time of the Lawe should not be a strong argument for their like beleife now in the time of Grace Wee may add hereto that if euery thing which was taught and commanded by the Law should now be abrogated then the tenne Commandements should in no sort belong to
you Christians And consequently the coÌ„ming of the Messias should be a sufficient warrant for your breach of the said Commandements then which to grant nothing can be excogitated more absurd or more derogating from the honour of Christ But good M. Doctour if you haue any more that can be produced for proofe of change of Faith made by the Church of Rome I would intreate you to perseuer in your discourse D. WHITAKERS Though I should grant some insufficiency and defect in my former instances and that we could not insist at all in any particulars of that nature neuerthelesse we are not endangered therby For we are not bound to answere in what age superstition crept into the Church And to grant more fully herein Of the tymes of this change it is not easi to answere neither is it necessary that the tymes of all such changes be set downe Breifly I auerre It is not needfull in vs to search out in histories the beginning of this change And with me in iudgment herein agree many learned Protestants As for exaÌ„ple to omit others Bucanus thus writeth Non est nostrum designare quo temporis momento caeperit Ecclesia deficere As also M. Powell saying We cannot tell neither by who or at what tyme the Enemy did sow it c. neither indeed do we know who was the first authour of euery one of your blasphemous opinions CARD BELLARM. O Iesus What strange and conscious tergiuersatioÌ„s are these And how mortally do they wouÌ„d your cause ReligioÌ„ wholy discouering your dispaire and diffidence therein For do not these Confessions ouerthrow your former instances If your supposed Examples be true then did you know the times of such a chaunge if you doe not knowe the times of the change as here you confesse you do not why then would you alleadge the foresaid Examples How can you extricate your selfe M. Doctour out of this maze or how can you decline this forked Delemma Furthermore if it cannot be knowne when any change of Fayth was made as here you and your Brethren confesse it cannot why should we beleiue there was made any chaÌ„ge at all He is weake who enthralleth his iudgment to the beleife of any such thing if so he wanteth the necessary and coÌ„ducing CircuÌ„staÌ„ces for the fortifying of such his beleife But belike you will finally say with Ioannes Rhegius a Protestant who not being able to exemplify any change in the Church of Rome arriued to that height of impudency as thus to write Sed denique licet verum esset Romanam Ecclesiam in sua Religione nihil mutasse an propterea mox sequetur eam esse veram Ecclesiam Non opinor Thus this Protestant D. WHITAKERS Not so my Lord Cardinall for I grant a change and the chang of Fayth made in the Church of Rome may well resemble the change in colour which heires do make in being become gray nothing hauing it maturity vpon the sodaine In like sort it may aptly resemble the changes in Edifices houses occasioned by their ruines and decaies We see by experience these changes are true and reall and yet cannot any man set downe punctually the tyme when either the heires are becom gray or the buildings are made ruinous The like may be sayd touching the change of Fayth in the RomaÌ„ Church certaine it is that such a change is already made but when by whom and in what manner it is most vncertaine MICHEAS What M. Doctour do your greatest proofs for the change of ReligioÌ„ finally end in these similitudes If so then I may say I do carry about me my best instructours herein must these gray haires of this my hoary heade and beard my selfe being 60. yeares of age and more and the decayes of this my old body for the same reason there is here of a ruinous body which is of a ruinous house teach me what Religion among you Christians I am to embrace Haue my wearied members taken so great a iourney of so many hundred miles to this place only to take aduise of my beard and my owne feeble limms which sitting at the sire side at home I coulde with farre more ease and with as much certainty haue performed ô the misery of man who lyeth open in matters of greatest waight and importance to the deceit of such rotten foundations they being as weake for proofe of what they are vrged as the things froÌ„ which these resemblaÌ„ces are taken are weake in their owne nature CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I do assure you in all sincerity I do much condole the state of ignorant Lay ProtestaÌ„ts to see how their eyes are sealed vp by the learneder sort of you who in your Pulpits and writings are often accustomed to inueighe in great acerbity of stile and tragicall exclamations against the Church of Rome for hauing altered as you beare your followers in hand her Primitiue Faith But you being pressed to prooue this imaginary change are forced for the warranting thereof to take your last and best proofs from some few gray hayres and slâ—fters in an old rotten wall But because these similitudes and resemblances are most vrged not only by your selfe but also by many other Protestants of Note and haue much swayd with vulgar iudgments not in respect of any force in them but in regard of the eminency of their first Inuentors so the water heateth not because it is water but by reasoÌ„ of it borrowed heate elswhere Therefore I will examine them narrowly and will shew the great disparity betweene them and the change which is at any time made in Religion 1 First then the first smale decay in any building and the first shew of whitenes in haires is imperceptible and not to be discerned wheras euery change in faith though but in one point or article is most markeable and subiect to obseruation 2 Secondly the whitenes of the haires of the head and the ruins of a house do not happen but by degrees and therefore at the first cannot be obserued whereas euery Opinion in doctrine is at the first either true or false and therefore is for such at the first to be appreheÌ„ded by the vnderstanding 3 Thirdly not any haue the charge or care imposed vpon them to obserue the changes in these petty matters but in the Church of Christ there are euer appointed Pastours Doctors whose office is to marke the first beginning of any innouation in doctrine and accordingly to labour to suppresse the same 4 Fourthly these similitudes and deceitfull resemblances being truly vrged do recoyle backe with disaduantage to the Protestants For although we cannot shew when the first haire began to be white or the first slifter in a house begunne to be a slifter yet any notable degrees of the said whitenes in the haires or of the slifters in a house are easily discerned and therefore the Protestants are obliged euen from the nature of these their owne similitudes to tell
Vniuersall much practised by our Aduersaries For according hereto if they can finde any Father or any moderne Catholicke Authour to mantaine though therein contradicted by other Fathers and Catholicks but one or two Points of Protestancy they blush not to auerre that the said Father or Catholicke writer are entire Protestants in all points 9. If your Aduersary should produce some supposed disagreements in doctrine among Catholicks you may reply that their differences rest only in some Circumstances of a Catholicke Conclusion and not in the Conclusion it selfe And if he produce any presumed Catholicke denying the Conclusion it selfe of the doctrine then are you to tell him that such a man ceaseth by this his deniall vnlesse ignorance or inconsideration excuse to be a member of the Catholicke Church therefore this his deniall doth not preiudice the Catholicke Faith this being contrary to the Protestants proceeding who wittingly mantaining contrary conclusions of Faith do remaine neuerthelesse by the iudgments of many of them good brethren and true Professours of the Ghosple 10. If your Aduersary contest that all the writinges and memory of Protestants in former ages were extinguished by the Popes of the said and after succeeding ages you may show how absurd this assertion is And the reason hereof is in that the Popes of those times could not presage that Protestancy should on these our times sway more then any other Heresies condemned in their very times which other Heresies remaine yet registred euen to this day by the acknowledgment of of the Protestants And therefore by the same reason Protestancy supposing it to be professed in those former times should also haue remained recorded either in the writings of the Protestants themselues if euer any such were or else by the censure and condemnation of them by the Popes of those daies 11. Whereas you may alleadge diuers acknowledged Heresies both in the iudgment of Protestant and Catholicke out of the bookes concerning diuers persons who beleeued some few points of Protestancy recorded in the said bookes here I speake of VValdo VVicliff c. Now if here your Aduersary disputant doth auouch as many Protestants do that these Heresies were falsly obtruded vpon the then said Protestants by their Enemies you may here reply that to affirme this is against the force of all reason For seeing the said bookes do indifferently make mention both of the Protestant Opinions and of the other Heresies defended by the same men either the said Bookes are to be beleeued in both or to be reiected in both If the first then it is certaine that those men beleeued those acknowledged Heresies and then they can not be instanced for perfect Protestants If the later then the said Bookes are not of any sufficient authority to prooue that there were any Protestants in those ages 12. There is great disparity betweene Protestants confessing some points which do aduantage the Catholicke faith as for examples that the Primitiue Fathers were Papists in all cheife Articles of Papistry as the Aduersary vse to tearme it and other Protestants impugning the said Confessions Seeing the first men speake against themselues and their Cause which they being learned would neuer do but as conuinced with the euidency of the truth therein whereas these other do deny the Confessions of their owne Brethren in behalfe of their owne Religion and so such their denialls are to be reputed more partiall In like sort there is great difference to be made betweene Protestants speaking against themselues and yet beleeuing the Protestant doctrine and conclusion touching some Circumstances whereof their said Confessions are and betweene some others who afore were Catholickes and after do defend some one point or other of Protestancy Since these later men do not speake against themselues but in defence of such their Protestant doctrine then newly entertained by them and consequently in defence of their owne opinions and therefore such their authorities are not to ballance equally with the Confessions of the former Protestants 13. If your Aduersary doth produce any authorities either from the Popes Decrees or from Generall Councels by the which the Antiquity of some Catholicke Article may be impugned Be carefull 1. That particular Councels or Councels Scismaticall not warranted by the Popes authority be not obtruded vpon you for true Generall Councells 2. That the point vrged out of the Councell doth concerne Doctrine of faith and not matter of fact touching which later point it is granted a Councell may alter it Decrees vpon better and later informations 3. That the Canon or Decree poduced out of the Councell do immediately concerne the doctrine it selfe of some Article of faith then supposed to be brought in and not the name only to be imposed vpon the said doctrine afore beleeued as it happened in the Councell of Lateran touching the word Transubstantiation 4. That the Decree of the Pope or Councell deliuered only touching the better execution of some Catholicke point afore partly neglected as for example touching Confession the vnmarried life of the Cleargy or keeping set times of fasting and the like be not fraudulently extended by your Aduersary to the first institution of the said doctrine he so suggesting a more reformed execution or practise of the Catholicke doctrine for the first institution of it 14. If your Aduersary produce the ancient Fathers in defence of Protestancy first aske him if he will inappealeably stand to their iudgments If he will then vrge the Protestants whose bookes are most plentifull in such like accusations charging them as Patrons of Papistry If he will not stand to their authority then demand to what end he doth alleadg them And further let him know that it is the ioynt consent of Fathers without contradiction of other Orthodoxall Fathers which the Catholicks do admit Where some Protestants obiect that diuers points of the Cathoclike Religion were condemned in some Hereticks by the Orthodoxall Fathers of the Primitiue Church you may truely reply hereto that the Article or conclusion it selfe of any Catholick point was not condemned by them but only some absurd and wicked Circumstance annexed by the said Hereticks to the Article was condemned by the Fathers Thus the Catholicks are charged by D. Fulke and others to borrow the praying to Saints and Angels from certaine old Heretickes condemned by Epiphanius for this doctrine Whereas those Heretickes praied both to good bad Angels to those who were falsly tearmed Angels accoūpting them as Patrons of their wickednes And for these Circumstances only Epiphanius registreth thē for Hereticks This sleight is much practised by diuers Protestāts in certaine points of the Catholicke Religion Therefore be sure to see the words of the Fathers so condemning them in the Fathers owne bookes which if you do you shall discouer wonderfull forgery and deprauation of the said Fathers writings vsed by the Protestants 16. If it be vrged that the deniall of Free-will for example and so of other Articles of Protestancy was taught
by Manichaeus and consequently that the Protestant faith is as ancient as those primitiue times Reply that this particuler Hereticke or that particuler Sectary did teach but one or other Protestant Article and were instantly written against for such their Innouation the said Men being Catholicke in other points And therefore you may truly auerre that the vrging of such Examples are wholy impertinent either for the proofe of the antiquity of Protestancy or for the visibility of the Protestant Church in those daies 17. When you produce the ancient Fathers against the Protestants their common shift is to make an opposition betweene the Scripture and the Fathers mantaining that to follow the Fathers iudgment in faith is to reiect and abandon the Scripture and that themselues are to be pardoned for preferring the Scripture before the Fathers But to this you may answere that seeing the Fathers do admit and reuerence the scripture in as high a degree as the Protestants do The maine question and doubt here is onely whether the Fathers or the Protestants do more truly expound the Scripture 18. When a Catholicke doth alleadge the Fathers the Protestants do seeke to lessen their authorities seuerall waies as by obiecting either another Father or the said Father in another place against himselfe so falsly traducing him as a mantainer of contrary Doctrines In like sort by obiecting some confessed errour of the Father produced by the Catholicke which cheifly houldeth in Origen Tertullian and Cyprian But to this last point you may answere that you produce the Fathers in such Catholicke Points touching the which they were not written against by any other Father and therefore their authority therein is of force since it is presumed hereby that all the other Fathers and consequently all the Church of God agreed with them therein whereas their confessed errours were impugned by Augustine Hierom Epiphanius and others 19. Do not admit this as good some Fathers do interpret this or that text of scripture figuratiuely therefore the said Fathers teach that it is not to be expounded literally This is a meere sophisme for seeing diuers texts of scripture are capable besides the literall of allegoricall sences as all the learned Catholicks and Protestants do acknowledg therfore the figuratiue sence doth not exclude but rather often presupposeth and admitteth the literall According hereto S. Augustine passing ouer as presumed and granted the literall sence of those wordes qui bibit meum Sanguinem c. allegorically expoundeth in this sort bibere Sanguinem Christi est crederein Christum 20. You are here also to conceiue that diuers Protestants do call our Catholicke Doctrines as they are defended by vs Superstition Idolatry Blasphemies but as they are taught by the ancient Fathers they mildly stile the very same Doctrines Errours Scarrs Blemishes The reason of the different appellation of them in the Fathers is in that they would not seeme to breake with the Fathers or to be of a seuerall Church from them whereas they call the same Doctrines in vs by the former aggrauating tearmes to imply to their followers that we Catholicks as supposed by them to professe Superstition Idolatry Blasphemies c. are not of the true Church of Christ By this you may discerne the Protestants both Malice and Subtilty 21. You must be wary to obserue and distinguish when a Father writeth doctrinally and sententially ex professo of any subiect from that which he writeth Antagonisticè and in heate of dispute with his Aduersary touching the said subiect since in the first kind his positiue and true iudgment is clearely set downe and for such his authority thence deduced is to be embraced Whereas in this later kind he often disputeth ad personam and so some-times either through vehemency or for his greater present aduantage writeth more loosely and not so reseruedly as the Catholicke doctrine in that point requireth According hereto some of the ancient Fathers writing against Pelagius and his sect who ascribed ouer much to Free-will did not perhaps so fully dispute in defence of the Catholicke Doctrine of Free-will as they might haue donne This course they tooke of which the Protestants make aduantage that thereby they might the more easily conuince their Aduersaries Heresy resting so much on the contrary side 22. In like sort the Fathers some-times perhaps in a Rhetoricall and amplifying manner do vse certaine transcendent speaches as also some more moderne Catholicks haue donne in praise of our Blessed Lady or in honour of the Crosse or the like then being taken literally can well be iustified But they were the more bold to do because they as then hauing no Aduersaries to their Catholicke Doctrines in those points might rest assured that their wordes would be taken in that pious sence and no other wherein they deliuered them But if they had foreknowne that there would haue come in after times such sectaries who would so rigidly and literally insist in all such their sentences perusing euery word and sillable of them and racking them to the worst construction as now the Protestants do they would no doubt haue writen more reseruedly and cautelously of those points But little did they thinke that any succeeding Men professing themselues to be Christians would euer so vncharitably haue detorted their words from their intended sence 23. Touching the Notes of the Church of Christ prescribed by the Protestants which are the true preaching of the Word and a right administration of the Sacraments you must here know that these Notes are set downe by them for two respects and with great subtilty The one is to auoid our Catholicke Notes of Antiquity Visibility Succession c. which notes they foresee cannot be iustified of their owne Protestant Church The second and more principall reason of this their proceeding is that here by they may reduce the proouing which is the true Church to their owne priuate spirit and iudgment because themselues will be Vmpiers and Iudges not admitting any other mens censures therein when and where the VVord is truly preached and the Sacraments rightly administred So subtle you see is Nouelisme in Faith for the patronage of it selfe 24. Striue to be more conuersant and ready if so your oportunity and occasions will not suffer you to be ready in all in such Controuersies which consâ—â— in practise as about Praying to Saints Indulgences Worshiping of Images Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament Communion vnder one kinde c. then in others which rest only in beleife and speculation Seeing the vulgar Protestant with whom you are in likelihood much to conuerse soonest taketh exception against those former and will expect greater satisfaction in them because they being subicct to the sense in regard of their daily practise come nearest within their Capacity and are by them often charged through the calumny of their cheife Maisters abusing their credulity with many supposed abuses 25. Touching those Articles or CoÌ„trouersies which chiefly rest in speculation be well traueled in
the question touching the Infallibility of Gods Chureh â—s also in that other question that the Scripture without the Churches attestation cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture and that all points of beleife do not receiue their proofe from scripture alone seeing that these two poteÌ„tially include in themselues most of all other CoÌ„trouersies Also be most ready in the question touching the continuall Visibility of the Protestants Church seeing the Protestants must grant their Church to haue beene euer visible if they will auerre it to be the true Church of Christ Micheas if euer you dispute with any Protestant I could wish if so the liberty of choicely on your part that you afore-hand well furnish arme your selfe to that end that you would make electioÌ„ to dispute of this point for if you be well experienced therein you shall mightely confound your Aduersary he not being able euen by his owne Brethrens confessions to instance for many Centuries and ages together so much as the being of one Protestant Thus farre Micheas of such obseruations breifly and plainly deliuered without applying most of them to any particular subiect wherewith it is conuenient you should be instructed before you enter into any conflict with any Protestant diuers others may be adioyned to these but that I am afraid I should tyre you with a wearisome repetitioÌ„ of them and your owne experience hereafter will best direct you in such animaduersions MICHEAS My Lord Cardinall I do much prise these your instructions most of them seruing as so many loopeholes through which we may espy the subtle approach of the Enemy or rather as so many Counter-murs to withstand his secret molitions and attempts i Dolus an virtus quis in hoste requirat And though these your premonitions or rather premunitions since by them I may be fore-armed against the assault of the aduersary be now but generally set downe without any particular application as your Lordship saith yet hereafter I will incorporate them in such points or passages of dispute as iust oportunity and occasion may present And here according to your Lordships desire I will labour in those Controuersies consisting cheifly in practise by you specified and I will also most painefully and elaborately furnish my selfe with reading touching the question of the visibility of the Protestants Church The which question I do promise your Lordship according as you wished me shal be the subiect of my next discourse whensoeuer my fortune shal be to contest with any learned Protestant for this point being well and throughly prosecuted I hold it most choaking and mortall to the aduersary as your Lordship aboue did affirme But now my Lord the time is farre spent and I feare I haue detained you ouer long in these your learned discourses And now I confesse I thinke it long till I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme which shall Wash away in me all spots and filth both of Originall and Actuall sinne referring my taking of Priesthood to such oportunity and season as you in your owne wisedome shall hold conuenient CARD BELLARM. Micheas as concerning your intended implanting in Christs Church by Baptisme your desire thereof I much commend seeing in things of this nature to will to do well is a doing well For your actuall Baptising whereby you shall cease to be descended from the loines of your first Parent know you that we are at this present in that Holy-weeke in which the Redeemer of the world was by the Iewes crucified a time among some other seasons of the yeare appointed by the Catholicke Church for the baptising of such Iewes as through Gods infinite Grace are conuerted to the Faith of Christ If therefore it please you to morrow to repaire to the Cathedrall Church of this Citty you shall finde me there prepared to minister to you according to your request the Sacrament of Baptisme with all it Christian rites and Ceremonies And after in conuenient and fitting time I will conferre vpon you the holy Order of Priesthood MICHEAS My Lord Cardinall till then I will take leaue of you acknowledging my selfe to be your Lordships in all obseruancy and wil be ready with the assistance of the highest at the place appointed to expect that happy houre FINIS GOD SAVE THE KING THE CONCLVSION HEre Learned Academians endeth our first Dialogue where you are to suppose that according to their former intended meetinge the next day Micheas is Baptised by the Cardinall who being thereby in Christum tinctus induit Christum and within some short time after he receiueth the holy function of Priesthood by the imposition of the hands of the said Cardinall What is feigned to haue happened to Micheas after his departure from the Cardinall the two subsequent Dialogues will discouer Touching the precedent subiect of this first Dialogue if it please you but to fanne and seuer away what is fictitious and imaginary therein from what is true and warranted with many proofs you shall finde I hope that the arguments produced are of sufficient weight to sway any mans iudgments not drunken with preiudice of Opinion to acknowledg that to this day there was neuer any change yet made in the Church of Rome so much as in one dogmaticall Article of Faith or point of importance which is the matter here in question and that therefore the Protestants inconsiderate malignity is hereby the more discouered who so frequeÌ„tly traduce and conuiciate that Church as the whore of Babilon which we Catholicks do vndertake euen with an expugnable confidence to Prooue that she is the intemerate and chaste spouse of Christ so certaine it is that these Men cease not to peruert the straight waies of the Lord. Now my Conclusion Vvorthy Men shall chiefly rest in a true and reall retorting of that vpon our Aduersaries which doctour VVhitakers and other Protestants do falsly obtrude vpon our Church so shall the accuser rest chargeable with the accusation and the accused become assoiled and freed My meaning is I will briefly here shew that it is the Protestant Faith and Religion which hath made a manifest change and alteration from that Faith and Religion which the Church of Rome sucked from the breasts of her first instructours howsoeuer the Protestants labour by all wit and other meanes to cloath their Innouations in the faire attire of a reuerend and regardable Priority of being I will insist in the chiefest articles mantained at this present by the Protestants and will set downe the maine circumstances necessarily attending as aboue is made playne euery change in Religion To wit the Doctrine which is newly broached the Person by whom it was first taught the Imposition of a new name for the most part vpon the beleeuers of that doctrine drawne from the first Authour in whoÌ„ all his followers were originally contained as the branches of a tree are vertually in the roote The time when euery such Protestant Article was first anciently introduced The Persons
and Samaria And agayne there They were receaued of the Church and the Apostles Act. 18. Paule went vp and saluted the Church Now how can these texts be possibly applyed to any Inuisible congregation or company of men Furthermore S. Paul speaketh of himselfe that he persecuted the Church of God as in 1. Cor. 15. Galat. 1. Philipp 3. In all which places the word Church is vsed But it is well knowne whom S. Paul did persecute And in 1. Timoth. 3. It is sayd how to conuerse indomo Dei quae est Ecclesia Dei in the house of the liuing God which is the Church of God But how could Timothee know how to conuerse in the house of God except he did know which was this house To all which former texts of Scripture I annex this one note a point much to be considered that not any one place of Scripture can be produced wherein the word Church is named but that a Visible and externall coÌ„pany of men is necessarily vnderstood thereby To the former Scriptures may be added certayne descriptions of the Church in other passages thereof as in Esay 2. Daniel 3. Michaeas 4. the Church is compared to a conspicuous mountayne which cannot be vnseene according to the expositions of Ierom Austin and the Protestants In like sort in Psalm 18. those words He placed his tabernacle in the Sunne are thus paraphrazed by S. Austin In manifesto posuit Ecclesiam suam c. He placed his tabernacle in an open place his tabernacle is his Church which is placed in the Sunne not in the night but in the day Thus Austin Another most illustrious conuincing passag of the Scripture for the Churches Visibility is that in the Epistle to the Ephesians c. 4. where it is sayd of Christ He gaue Pastours Doctours to the consummation of Saints vnto the worke of the Ministery till we all meete in the Vnity of Fayth that is as D. Fulke interpreteth for euer These words necessarily import that the Church of Christ must at all tymes and seasons and this without any interruption haue Pastours to administer the Sacraments and preach the word Which exposition being granted implyeth necessarily an euer Visibility of the Church For how can those Doctours and Pastours preach at all tymes and vpon all occasions the word of God administer the Sacraments if they be concealed and lye in secret Or how can the persons to whom the Word is preached the Sacraments dispensed become vnknowne or Inuisible That this is the true interpretation of the former text of the Ephesians is generally taught by our owne learned men For according hereto D. Whitakers teacheth the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments to be so necessary to the Church that he thus saith Si adsunt Ecclesiam constituunt tollunt si aufer antur With whom conspireth D. Willet thus saying of the administratioÌ„ of the Word Sacraments These marks cannot be absent from the Church and it is no longer a true Church then it hath these Markes And heÌ„ce it is that D. Whitakers further sayth that the preaching of the word and the administration of the SacrameÌ„ts are Ecclesiae proprietates essentiales essentiall proprâ—etyes of the Church And that D. Fulke thus affirmeth Christ will suffer no particuler Church to continue without a seruaÌ„t to ouersee it And that Pastours Doctours must be in the Church till the end of the World euen froÌ„ Christs time to Luthers age yea our sayd D. Fulke further affirmeth that these b Pastours Doctours must resist all false opinions with open reprehension Vnto our former brethren accord other Protestant Deuines thus wryting The ministery is an ossentiall Marke of the true Church Finally Caluin comparteth with vs all herein saying the Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours So truly do we Protestants interpret the words of Esay Vpon thy walls ô Ierusalem I haue set watchmen all the day and all the night for euer they shall not be silent Now from these premisses we demonstraciuely proue the euer and vninterrupted visibility of the Church a point so euident that our owne learned Protestants do according to the former doctrine defyne a visible Church in these words A visible Church is a congregation of the faithfull people where the word is preached and the Sacraments ministred Which definition is also allowed by Doctour Willet and which euen in reason it selfe is warrantable since the Church as enioying the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen in that respect become visible as we said aboue And thus farre of this prophecy of the Apostle in the explication whereof I haue stayed the longer in that it irrefragably conuinceth the poynt now handled And here I end touching the necessary Visibility of Gods Church prooued out of the sacred Scriptures NEVSERVS You might haue added Ochinus to the former Propheeyes that it is in another place foretould of the Church of the new Testament that it Pastours shal be daily multiplyed to minister vnto God And this not with any interruption herein but euen from month to month and from Sabaoth to Sabaoth That all this is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Messias appeareth from the Annotations of the English Bibles vpon the Chapters here cited printed 1576. You also might further haue insisted in that other Prophecy that the Kingdome of Christ shall not be giuen ouer to an other People but shall stand for euer And that it shal be an eternall glory and ioy from generation to generation All which passages to be meant of the Church is acknowledged by all learned Protestants Now how vntowardly and vnaptâ—y these passages with the former by you alledged sort to a company of Professours shut vp in so secret a manner as that no man can take notice of them I referre to any mans iudgement not wholy blinded with partiality and preiudice But I feare Ochinus I haue wronged you in vndertaking part of your assumed taske therefore I will cease and descend as afore I promised to answere such chiefe places of the Scripture as are by some vrged in their sily wrytings the impostumous swelling of their froathy penne for the supporting of the Churches imaginary Inuisibility D. REYNOLDS I pray you Neuserus proceed therein since obscure passages in any kind of learning not explayned do often suggest tacit obiections perplexing and intricating the iudgments of the weake and ignorant NEVSERVS I will And first for example are vsually obiected those of Elias when he sayd relictus sum solus I am left alone As also that sentence of the Prophet deficiet hostia sacrificium the Oast and sacrifice spall cease And agayne that of the Apostle Nisi venerit discessio primum c. Except there come first a departure c. And finally that of the Apocalyps The woman must flye
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
Vnction He also beleiued the rites and Ceremonyes of the Masse as appeareth in his booke de Apostasiac 18. Touching his praying to our Blessed Lady he thus in feruour writeth Hic videtur miht quod impossibile est nospraemiari sine Mariae suffragio It seemeth impossible to me for any man to be rewarded without the suffrage or prayers of Mary He acknowledged the worship of Relicks Images of which he thus saith Ador aneus imagines vnde signa c. conceditur it aque quòd reliquae Imagines c. sunt cum prudentia ador andae We worship Images as signes c. Therfore it is granted that relickes Images c. are to be worshipped with prudence Touching Merit of Works and works of Supererogation Wicklefe was so forward in defence thereof that Stow thus writeth of him Wicklefe and his disciples went in course russet garments downe to the heeleâ— seemed to contemne all temporall goods for the loue of eternall riches adiayned himselfe to the begging fryars approouing their pouerty and extolling their perfection He thus teaching with the Catholicks that a Religious and voluntary pouerty is the greatest abundance Besides these his seuerall Catholicks doctrines He defended diuers grosse Herefyes He first taught that all things came to passe by an absolute and stoicall Necessity He condemned lawfull Oathes sauoring as Osiander saith of Anabaptisms Touching Ecclesiasticall persons thus writeth Melancthon of Wicklefe Wicklefus contendit presbiteris non licere vt possideant quicquam proprium Wicklefe mantayneth that it is not lawfull for Priests to possesse any thing in propriety He further taught euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox the Canonizer of the Pseudomartyrs of his Religion that if a Bishop or a Priest be in deadly sinne he doth not order consecrato or baptize Which point is also verifyed of Wicklefe by Osiander Furthermore Wicklefe did not only ascribe with Catholicks merit to works done in state of grace but he was so passionatly resolute herein as that as Waldensis witnesseth he taught merit of works done by force of nature with the Pelagians Finally Wicklefe taught that there is no Ciuill magistrate while he is in mortall sinne and this so grosly that Melancthon thus censureth him De Domino ciuili sophisticè planè seditiose vixatur Wicklefe disputeth of the ciuill magistrate sophistically and seditiously And according to this his doctrine in speculation his followers in great numbers did rise against the King And for such their treason diuers of them were apprehended and executed But to contract this point touching the Heresyes of Wicklefe This matter is so euident and confessed by diuers learned Protestants as that Pantaleon a Protestant placeth Wicklefe in the Catalogue of Hereticks thus writing Iohannes Wicklefus cum Lolhardis in Anglia suam Haeresim praedicat Iohn Wicklefe diâ—â—lgeth with the Lolhards his Heresy in England And Melancthon thus writeth in generall of him I haue found in Wicklefe many errours wherby a Man may iudge of his spirit Finally M. Fox though at other times gracing him with the title of a Protestant confesseth That VVicklefe vsed often for feare of persecution and danger to dissemble his Religion Which no man in the iudgment both of Catholicke and Protestant professing any conscience can lawfully do Thus much touching Wicklefe OCHINVS M. Doctour I must confesse euen betweene God and my conscience that hitherto the Vessell from whence you haue drawne all your former wine I meane examples of Protestancy is not good and pure But I hope we shall haue reason to say in regard of your other more conuincing Instances hereafter to follow with the cheife steward of the feast in the Gospell Thou hast kept the good wine vntill now But howsoeuer it is Truth is not so feeble as to be forced to leaue for it owne supporting vpon the cruches of any one mans ability NEVSERVS Truly hitherto the Examples of protestancy are insufficient for how can they be reputed Protestants who not only maintayne the most articles of the Romish Religion but also do pertinaciously iustify diuers confessed Heresyes Neuerthelesse I doubt not but Ochinus and my selfe shal be able to proue that the Protestant Church was enriched at all tymes with many of the faythfull though not alwayes it was so gloriously subiect to the eyes of others But M. D. what do you say to the tymes precedent to the former For we are most willing that Michaeas should haue good satisfaction giuen him herein D. REYNOLDS I say that in those tymes florished not two or three but many hundred Protestants For then liued VValdo from whom as from a most worthy stemme his branches the VValdenses are descended All which both the father and the Sonns euen in the iudgment of M. Fox were perfect Protestants In those tymes also were the Albigenses confessed for good Protestants Also the Henricians or Apostolici Peter Bruts learned Almericus and diuers others liued about those dayes Indeede there were so many Protestants in those tymes as I am partly troubled where to beginne to reckon them but may here say with the Poet Inopem me copia fecit MICHAEAS Thus M. D. are but ostentations And I see that saying verifyed in you Many through loue do hurt themselfs For you through your ouer much affecting to preserue the honour of your Church do indeed by prostituting diuers Pseudoprotestants indignify your Church For all these whom you now haue alledged are merely Excentrous as I may tearme them irregular Sectaries their doctrines indiffereÌ„tly mouing about the Poles of Catholicke Religion Protestancy Sensuality And first touching Waldo It is certaine that he was a Lay-man of Lyons in France vnlearned but rich and gaue money for the translating of the Scripture into his owne vulgar toÌ„gue Of him the Waldenses are deriued about the yeare 1218. Now that neither Waldo nor the VValdenses his followers were Protestants though they be much vrged for such by many Protestants is seuerall wayes prooued First in that they did still hould diuers Catholicke points as the Reall presence in the Blessed Sacrament of whom concerning the same point Caluin thus writeth Formula Confessionis c. The forme of the Confession of the Waldenses doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation who do not confesse that the breade is become truly the body of Christ They also maintayned seauen Sacraments the doctrine of Vowes of single life and of Purgatory with all which doctrines Benedictus Morgenstrensis a Lutheran chargeth the Waldenses and reprehendeth them for the same Lastly they were so full in defending the doctrine of merit of works as that as D. Humfrey writeth of VValdo He did forsake all things that being poore he might follow Christ the Euangelicall Perfections And in the end it did so faule out that his schollers and disciples were an Order of begging Fryars and commonly called the Poore Men of
words Although thes and such like defenced some part of the truâ—h which we â—ould against you yet leâ—st you should obiect it was but in some one or two points â—passe them ouer with silence Thus D. Fulke who euen vpon this ground pretermâ—â—teth all the said examples and first instanceth in Wicklefe OCHINVS I do find Michaeas some learned Protestants to make mention of Ioannes de rupescissa Guiâ—ieâ—mus de S. Amore Peter Blois and some others for good and found Protestants what is your opinion of them MICHAEAS I grant they are claymed for Protestants but obserue how iniustly And first touching Ioannes de rupe scissa M. Fox thus writeth of him Iohannes de Rupe scissa liued anno 1340. who for rebuking the spiritualty for their great enormityes and neglecting their office was cast in prison Thus M. Fox Thus we see he otherwyse was Catholicke in all points Williâ—lmuâ— de S. Amore is thus charged by Pantaleon the Protestant Gulielmus de S. Amore Monachâ—s ex 〈…〉 osyna in otio 〈…〉 tes non saluaâ—i scribens a Papa Haereticus censetur Guilielmus de S. Amore teaching that Monkes liuing of Almes in idlenes could not be saued is therefore censured by the Pope for an Hereticke Lastly Peter Blois who liued anno 1200. is freed from being a Protestant by Osiander in these words Petrus Blesensis c. principum praelatorum religiosisorum priuatorum peccataÌ„ grauiter arguit non tamen Pontificios errores refutauit Peter Blois did much aggrauate the sinns of Princes Prelates Religious and priuate Men but he no way intermedled with the errours of Popish religion Now Ochinus I refer euen to your selfe how vntruly these former Men may be obtruded vpon vs for Protestants But the proceeding of our Aduersaries in this question of the visibility of their Church is incredible who are not ashamed in their owne defence herein to challenge besydes registred and confessed Hereticks any one that hath impugned the Pope or his Church but in any one point eyther of manners or doctrine And hence it is that they challenge to themselfs for Protestants men whom all the world do know to be Catholicks in all articles of fayth without exception Thus are Willielmus Occam and Gandanensis by M. Fox Iohn Scotus by Osiander vrged for Protestants Thus also is S. Bede claymed by D. Humfrey of whom Osiander thus speaketh Bede was a Papist in all those Articles wherein Protestants do at this day dissent from the Pope Thus is Peter Lombard placed in the Catalogue of the Doctours and restorers of the heauenly doctrine whom notwithstanding M. Fox styleth An archpillar of Papistry Thus also Ioannes Gerson Thomas Aquinas whom all Christendome acknowledgeth to be of the Church of Rome are challenged for Protestants by Illyricus Finally Thus is Erasmus canonized by them for a Protestant and particularly by your selfe M. D. yet we reade that Erasmus thus writeth Christum agnosco Lutherum non agnosco Ecclesiam Romanam agnosco Christ 〈◊〉 acknowledge Luther I do not acknowledge the Church of Rome I acknowledge But D. Field one of this vniuersity ouergoeth all others for he with more then a meretricious and frontles bouldnes auerreth that all Christendome before the dayes of Luther were Protestants for thus he writeth We firmely beleiue that all the Churches of the world wherein our Fathers liued and dyed to haue bene the true Protestant Churches of God c. And that they which taught imbraced and beleiued those damnable errours which the Romanists defend against vs were only a faction An assertion which Impudency it selfâ— would blush to mantayne it being controuled by all historyes whatsoeuer and by the free acknowledgment of all Protestant wryters without exception NEVSERVS This bould asseueration of D. Field I confesse displeaseth me infinitly and it is no small blemish to vs who professe the Gospell and who should bound and measure our speeches with truth at least with some probability of Truth thus to write For who knoweth not that the Masse which contayneth in it selfe diuers doctrines of the Romish Religion was the publike Leyturgy celebrated in all Churches throughout Christendome at Luthres first reuolt from the Pope And I grant that this may giue iust suspition to many to thinke that we make vndue clayme to the auncient Fathers and others aboue instanced being further of in tyme remoted from vs when some of vs blush not to affirme so vntruly of the dayes next before Luther and of the tyme in which himselfe first did rise vp it being yet in the memory of Man But M. Doctour I pray you proceede to higher tymes D. REYNOLDS I acknowledge it is a difficult point to name professours of Protestancy for euery age Though no doubt our Protestant Church as being the true Church enioyed many Professours at all tymes But these examples afore produced may giue great coniecture that at all times since the Apostles there haue bene many faithfull Protestants and an answerable administration of the word Sacraments MICHAEAS Touching your former produced examples your owne secret iudgment no doubt assureth you that as yet we haue not met with one pertinent example in all this discourse But seeing you M. D. do forbeare to instance for former ages yet not discussed contrary to your promised attempt in the beginning I would entreate Ochinus or Neuserus to insist in perticular Instances of Protestancy for euery such age OCHINVS I will speake both for my selfe and Nâ—userus The labour of instancing is peculiar to M. Doctour And therefore we would be loath as being no more able to performe it then he to take it from him and assume it to our selfs MICHAEAS M. Doctour and you two Gentlemen These are but words seruing fruitlesly to rauell out the time allotted for disputation Therefore once more I vrge you all to giue instances for euery age not yet mentioned NEVSERVS What needs this earnest solicitation of you in this point There were no doubt in euery of those Centuryes many Protestants And let that suffice MICHAEAS What Neuserus Generalityes without particulars What Logicke is this And yet you know Logicke is the schollars eye wherewith he discerneth Sophisms and subtill Euasions But the plaine truth is neither any of you or any learned Man whosoeuer is able so much as but to suggest any one man much lesse any one Country professing in the next precedent ages the Protestant fayth And therefore since Necessity is euer pardonable I pardon you all for your flying to these generall answeres though I must confesse they openly discouer the strayts within which you are here enuironed But Learned Men seing we haue waded so far in this discourse we will reflect a little vpon the former examples or Instances And I will here deale liberally with you in yeelding â—or the tyme more then I am bound to doe And as the Maâ—â—ematicians do forge certaine imaginary
and vnreal Circles in the Heauens whereby they arriue to the knowledge of the true and naturall motions of the stars and planets So I will for the tyme here imagine that Waldo Wicklef Hus and the rest by you exemplifyed were in all points Protestants and that their faith was not contaminated and soyled with any one Errour or Heresy yet from these acry supposals I will neuerthelesse deduce the infallible and certaine truth of the defection of the Protestants Church And will proue that the said Examples admitting them for true examples are not sufficient for seuerall Reasons to support the visibility of the Protestant Church 1. And first we are here to call to mind that the Church of God as appeareth from the Etymology of the Word Ecclesia and the Ecclesiasticall acceptance thereof is a calling out or Congregation of many of the faithfull So as to the necessary being of the Church especially after the first plantation of it not one or two but diuers and many faythfull must concurre Which point is made more euident in that the administration of the Word and Sacraments being euer a most necessary Attendant of the Church includeth in it selfe a multitude of persons consisting of Pastours and Doctours on the one side and of spirituall sheepe or children on the other side In like sort the former prophecyes touching the encrease amplitude continuall splendour of the Church do euict the same Now to apply this to our present purpose In some of the former examples we fynd no mention of others ioyning in beleife with the first supposed Protestants of that tyme Thereâ—ore from hence it may be concluded that the being of any one such strange Protestant or other doth not include the being of any Protestant Church at that tyme much lesse the Visibility of such a supposed Church during but that very tyme. 2. Secondly the Scriptures and first part of our discourse do irrefragably prooue that the Church of God must not at one only tyme or other but all tymes and in all ages without the least interruption or discontinuance much lesse without interruption for many hundred yeares togeather be most visible and conspicuous for it is resembled euen in this respect by Gods sacred Writ to a Citty placed vpon a hill that cannot be hid at any tyme And to a mountayne prepared in the top of mountaynes and exalted aboue Hills All which implyeth a continuall and incessant Visibility of the Church To which Scriptures D. Fulke and D Whitakers subscrbe as aboue is shewed Both who teach that euen in the greatest persecution of Antichrist much more then at other tymes the Church of God shal be most visible and as Bullenger sayth right famous This now being granted and withall it being acknowledged by D. â—ulke and other learned Protestants who speake more sparingly and warily here of then others of their Brethren do who grant a longer tyme of the reigne of the Catholicke Fayth and Religion That anno Domini 607. the papists religion preuayled as the sayd Doctour speaketh and that all Popes from Boniface the third were Antichrists which Boniface did liue about the said yeare 607. Now here satisfying my selfe at this present with our Aduers Confessions touching the continuance of our Catholicke Religion I demaund M. D. and you learned Men what Protestants can be alledged liuing betweene Anno 607. and 〈◊〉 220. at which tyme liued Waldo Here are about six hundred yeares betweene these two tymes during all which Period as also for euery yeare thereof you stand obliged to alledge Protestants for the continuance of the Visibility of your Church or els to acknowledge your Church not to be the Church of God But here all you Protestants are at a stand as being not able to name any one Protestant liuing within the compasse of the said six hundred yeares I meane from anno 607. to anno 1220 wherby to support the Visibility of your Church but for any part of that tyme much lesse for whole tyme. And if you M. Doctour can instance for those tymes I here prouoke you thereto for as for Bertram and Berengarius c. their examples are ouer vnworthy to be insisted vpon as aboue is showed Besyds supposing them for Protestants yet their examples serue but only during the life of Bertram and Berengarius both which liued some foure or fiue hundred yeares after the acknowledged foresaid 607. yeare of Boniface for which foure or fiue hundred yeares you still remayne bound to instance your Protestants Againe Waldo as is said liued in anno 1220. Wocklefe liued anno 1370. Huâ— in anno 1405. Luther liued more then a hundred yeares after Hus. Here we see againe there is a good number of yeares betweene euery one of these seuerall tymes And here I demand agayne of you to name some Protestants to fill vp the Bancks as it were or empty roomes of these many Staâ—ions During all which tyme you cannot instance I am sure in any one knowne confessed Protestant Wherefore I conclude that seing the Church of God is to be at all tymes seasons euer visible and discernable And seing your former Examples of Waldo Wicklefe Hus and the rest aboue mentioned admitting them for true examples in all points are found defectiue to proue your Churches Visibility that therefore your Protestant Church for want of this visibility so necessarily required is not the true Church of God and consequently that I haue no warrant to leaue the Catholicke Church and to implant my selfe in your Protestant Church 3. Thirdly All the former Men I meane Berengarius Waldo Wicklefe Hus Luther c. were originally Catholicks and then after by forging of new doctrines afore vntaught they deuyded themselues from the Church then in being And so thereby they iustifyed in themselfs those words of S. Iohn r they went out of vs the very signature or Character of an Hereticke euen in the iudgment of Protestants Now this disparture or going out of the Church implyeth in lieu of a continuance of their Church an interruption discontinuance and defection of their Church and consequently a want of Visibility of their sayd Church Since it infallibly proueth that the doctrines taught by these men after their departure was not taught by the Church afore in being for if they had bene taught by it these Men needed not to leaue the then knowne Church for their defending and teaching of their said doctrines 4. Fourthly lastly you no doubt will say that Wicklefe Hus Luther c. did preach the word and administer the Sacraments to their disciples since without these meanes euen by your confession the Church cannot subsist Here then seing no Man taketh to him the honour of Priesthood but he that is called of God as Aaron was And seing according hereto it is sayd how shall they preach except they be sent And further who so entreth not at the dore into the
sheepfould but clymeth another way is a theife I now demand M. Doctour who did call Luther Hus Wicklefe c. to preach the word and administer the Sacraments Or by whom were they sent D. REYNOLDS I here answere with Caluin Beza and D. Fulke that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes MICHAEAS This is but extrauagantly spoken and merely forged by you Protestants M. D. as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling But to refute this phantasy Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed as it was in the Apostles with working of miracles euen by the iudgment of the Protestants theÌ„selfe Among whom Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling saying Vnde venis quis te 〈…〉 isâ—◠〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 que is a Deo missum esse testantur See how by Gods prouidence Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe And therefore D. Bilsâ—n as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling not warranted with Miracles thus confesseth They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession Thus then Luther Huâ— Wicklefe and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling immediatly by God himselfe since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke whose words are these It is knowne that Caluin and the rest whom Papists call Archhereticks do worke no Miracles D. REYNOLDS Some learned Protestants to wit D. Whitakers D. Bridges and others do auerre that it is not improbable to affirme that Wicklefe Hus Luther c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome Which calling was conferred vpon them before their departure out of that Church Which opinion of theirs admitting it for true taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument MICHAEAS Neuer M. D. doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds more windings and turnings to saue her life then you Protestants do here to salue your Vocation for you being here stabled to get your selfe out of the myre sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary and immediate from God warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms forsooth and illuminations But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church making it your Sanctuary But see with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed For besides that Walde as being a Layman neuer receaued any calling from thence Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church Antichristian seing it seemes you confesse that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther Hus and the rest and to their successours or descendents which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church For if the Pope be Antichrist and his Church Antichristian as your Brethren in their pulpitts do vociferate then how can you pretend their Calliâ—g to be sufficient and warrantable seing your owne men teach that in Babylon meaning thereby the Church of Rome there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed but a mere vsurpation And most certaine it is and confessed by all learned Men that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission for the Preaching of the Word of Christ and admitting the Sacraments of Christ Now if Luther Hus Wicklefe and the rest do want true calling then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility So plunged we see you Protestants are when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther Hus Wicklefe and their successours And thus far now Learned Men to demonstrate that supposing Waldo Wicklefe Hus Luther and the rest instanced in your precedent passages had bene in all points of beliefe Protestants that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks in any Catholicke doctrines nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes yet it is most euident in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church in that manner as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant and peculiarly by our selfs according to the beginning of this our disputation OCHINVS With M. Doctour good leaue who hath showed great reeding in his former examples though they be not so conuincing and pregnant as I did hope to find them Neuserus and I will vndertake to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church in all precedent ages And you are heare Learned Michaeas to know I am of opinion that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen for all these former tymes by you mentioned yet followeth it not that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes which is only the Question betweene vs for many Reasons may be giuen why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes And one Reason may be this you know well the Popes for many ages haue borne more then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion euer endeuouring by all meanes possible to extirpate it out Therefore my iudgment is that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages as they labored by all courses to extinguish all remembrance of them as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants thus hoping that the Memory of them might be interred with their Bodyes This is my opinion I meane that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes through the Popes affected malignity MICHAEAS It is strange to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings that there can be named Protestants liuing in euery Century since Christ as you M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse with great venâ—itation did vndertake to performe Now you retyre backe Ochiâ—â—s from M. D. assertion and say doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other were concealed from Posterity So distracted you are in your owne iudgements passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man since now zealously to affect an opinion at another tyme to let the same saulle by entertayning the contrary opinion is but the Ague of an irresolute and inconstant iudgement But to come to the point First I say that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. Dâ—â—tours former Instances For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes by the Popes
doth not suffice It cannot be but they which are of the true Church must by the profession of the Truth make themselfs knowne in such sort that by their profession and practise they may be discerned from other men A point further receauing it most warrantable truth from Truth himselfe who thus threatneth Whosoeuer shall deny me before Men him I will deny before my Father in Heauen And from hence it is that the Protestants themselues thinke they are obliged in conscience not to be present at the Seruice or Masse of the Catholicke Church or to participate with the Catholicks in their Sacraments Which kind of Recusancy is punctually taught by D. Willet Melancthon Peter Martyr Bucer and Caluin But to draw towards an end of this your pretext of persecution The same is refuted euen from the nature of the Church delineated in Gods holy Word and accordingly acknowledged by you Protestants For if the Church of God must at all tymes be visible and eminent as is largly proued by vs all in the first part of this discourse and must be eminent in so full a manner as that we are commanded to repayre to the Church in all our spirituall Necessityes according to those words of our Sauiour Tell the Church c. And if the administration of the Word and Sacraments must euen to the end of the World euer and at all tymes be practized in the Church of Christ How then can the Church but by these meanes become most visible or rather most radiant The force of which reason I will conclude with the words of D. Humfrey thus wryting Dum ministri docent alij discunt illi sacramenta administrant hi communicant omnes Deum inuocant fidem suam profitentur Qui ista non videt talpa est caecâ—or Whyles the Ministers do teach and others do heare whyles these Men do administer the Sacraments those do communicate or participate of them whyles all do call vpon God and professe their fayth He that doth not see these things is more blynd then a moale NEVSERVS Haue you not often obserued Michaeas how a little qu 〈…〉 tity of copper in a counterfeyte Coyne And yet neyther is the corne or gould extinguished or annihilated But that it may be truly sayd the Corne and chaffe is mingled together the gould and Copper moulted together And yet neyther is the Corne chaffe nor the gould copper Why then by the like analogy proportion may it not be here auerred that the Protestant Church was in former ages in the Papacy the Papcy was in the Protestant Church and yet the Protestant Church was not the Papacy Which being granted freeth our Church from an absolute Inuisibility at least from an vtter extinction and ouerthrow of it in those former Popisn tymes And to my remembrance I haue read certayne learned Protestants expressing this point not much differently from my words for I find M. Parkins thus to allude to this saying The Church of Rome may be said to be in the Church of God and the Church of God in the Church of Rome with whom D. Whitakers seemes to conspyre thus wryting Ecclesia ver a fuit in Papatu sed Papatus non fuit Ecclesia vera And with these former euen Beza besids others doth agree saying voluit Deus in Papatu seruare Ecclesiam et si Papatus non est Ecclesia Which answere is thought so sufficient and choaking as that the former learned Protestant M. Parkings much resteth vpon it thus euen exulting This answere serues to stop the mouths of Papists who demaund of vs where the Church was fourescore yeres before Luther for they are answered that our Church hath bene since the dayes of the Apostles and that in the very middest of the Papacy MICHAEAS O how ingenious and pregnant Niuserus is Nouelisme in fayth spining like the silke worme out of it owne wombe such fine threeds of wit But alas these threeds are too weake to detayne and hould the Aduersary This diuersion of yours rather then answere consisteth of a froath of words artificially put togeather And indeed it partly resembleth your own former similitude For the matter as I may say of it is euen 〈…〉 ase mettall guilded ouer with a specious show of mysticall phrazes For you Protestants seing you are not able to instance particularly in any one man during so many ages as from the Apostles dayes to Luther who was a perfect Protestant much lesse to instance in the administration of the Word and Sacraments And also perceauing by Experience that it soundeth in the eare couldly and indeede harshly to grant in plaine and direct words that the Protestant Church during all those ages was wholy extinct and vanished away out of the world and further remembring that great huge burdens are better remooued by sleight of witty Engins then by strength haue at length resolued to deliuer this your doctrine or Position in an affected and obscure phraze thereby as vnder aueyle or clowd to shadow the falshood thereof saying as aboue you alledge The Church is in the Papacy the Papacy is in the Church And yet the Church is not the Papacy Thus do you here imitate physitians who giue physicke to delicate bodyes not in the grosse substance but eyther in infusion or extraction This curious frame of speech maks as I sayd a glorious show at the first but examine it and it presently resolues to nothing like vnto the lightning which is an eminent Obiect to the eye and yet it no sooner commeth then it vanisheth Now for the better discouery displaying of this your sleight you are here to conceaue that the sense of these words is not that the Protestant Church had in those tymes a latent and hidden being in Catholicke Countreyes without hauing entercourse or Communion with the then knowne and visible Church in the Sacraments For so the true Church could not be said to be in the Papacy no more then at this day in respect of it like aboadin Turkish Countreyes it can be sayd to be in Turcisme Therefore the particular manner of this strange and stupendious mixture together for externall Society like chaffe and Corne in due heape or copper and gould in one coyne is truly expressed by Osiander the Protestant in these words Quod semper sub Papatu aliqui pij homines fuerint qui errores Pontificios idolatrica sacra improbarunt temetsi id non semper profiteri and ebant nemo negat No man denyeth but that there were euer vnder the Papacy some holy men who disliked the Errors of the Popes and their Idolatrous worshipps although they durst not openly professe so much Nisi ardere aut ad minimum exulare velint except they would burne for their Religion or at least suffer banishment And yet the said Protestant more fully Animum ad ist a poÌ„tificia idolatrica sacra non applicusrunt
sinnes of Saule the Publican MICHAEAS M. Doctour you do well and like a Christian Doctour to endeauour to reâ—all home these two wretches Yet touching the paucity of Protestanticall Apostates by you pretended it seemâ—s your Memory wrongs your Reading For it is a vast vntruth to affirme that only Ochinus and Neuserus haue reuolted to Turcisme and Iudaâ—sme For did not Dauid George a cheife Protestant and once Professour at Basil become a blasphemous Apostata who affirming our Sauiour to be a seducer and grounding himselfe with Ochinus Nâ—userâ—s vpon the not accoÌ„plishment of the Prophesyes of the Churches visibility in the Protestant Church thus writeth Si Christi Apâ—stolorâ—an doctrina vera perfecta fuisset c. If the doctrine of Chrâ—st and his Apostles had bene true aâ—d perfect the Church which they had planted should haue contâ—nued c. But now it is manifest that Antichrisi hath subuerted the doctrine of the Apostles and the Church by them begunne c. therefore the doctrine of the Apostles was false and imperfect Thus that impâ—ous Iew And was not Alamannus a Swinglian and once most familiar with Beza who perswading himselfe that the prophecyes touching the continuall visâ—bility of the Church were not performed in Christ his Chuâ—ch because he saw they were not performed in the Protestant Church did thereupon renounce Christianity and became a blasphemious Iew a point so euident that Beza himselfe notwithstanding their former inwardnes and friendship thus writeth of him Alamanum affirmant ad â—udaâ—smum dâ—fecisse Did not Georgius Paulus minister of Cracouia deny the Trinity with the Turkes In like sort Conefius and Laelius Socinus a schollar in the schoole of Geneua who writ whole books against the B. Triâ—ity vpon the former grounds forsooke the Christian fayth And this Socinus as Beza witnesâ—eth so at the first corrupted the first chapter of S. â—ohn his Ghospell which speaketh so plainâ—ly of Christ as that Beza saith of him mihâ— quidem videtur omnes corrupâ—ores longè superasse In like sort Andreas Vâ—lanus a great Caluinisâ— not only became in the end a Turke but infected many others with his wrytings agaynst the Bleâ—sâ—ed Trinity and Christian fayth But if you haue a desire to râ—ede of more Protestants who became Turkes and Iewes as presuming that the former Prophecyes were not performed in the Church of God I referre you to a booke to which I thinke you are no stranger I meane to that most elaborate and mother-booke for it hath giuen byrth to diuers others written by your owne brother M. William Reynolds and called Caluino Turcismus You may also to the same end peruseÌ„ Conradus Slussenberg and Osiander both Protestants where I presume your stomacke wil be soone gluted with the displeasing gust of diuers others there related And now in the through of these examples my thoughts are caried to Sebastian Castalio once Professour at Basill And one highly extolled by your owne D. Humfrey and others This Castalio though he went not so fare as by open breach and Apostasy to leaue the fayth of Christ yet in regard that the former predictions touching the spreading of Christs Church and the euer vneclipsed conspituity of it were not in his iudgment performed in Christ Church he writeth very perplexedly hereof to King Edward the sixt in this Maner Equidem aut hâ—c futura f 〈…〉 endum est c. Truly it is to be confessed that these predictions are either to be performed hereafter or haue bene allredy or that otherwyse God is to be accused of lyinge Yf it be said they haue bene allready accomplished I aske of hym When Yf he answeare in the Apostles dayes I demand then how it happeneth that neithâ—r then the knowledg of God was wholy perfect and why it so soone vanished away which was promised to be eternall and more abundant then the floudds of the Sea And then without saluing this his difficulty he finally thus dowbtfully concludeth Quo magis libros sacros considero eo minus hactenus praestitum video vtcumque oracula illa intelligas The more â—peruse the Scriptures the lesse do I find the same performed howsoeuer you vnderstand the said Prophecies See with what a fearefull and wauering trepitation of iudgment this learned Caluinist writeth of this point through his false supposall that the Catholycke Church is not the Church of God but cheiffly through his true acknowledgment that the former Prophecies were not performed in the Protestant Church And thus far of these Examples But if you will haue a censure whether any Protestants or rather Caluinists turne Arians or no who as denying the most Blessed Trinity are litle bettar then Turks or Iewes I will giue it in this Neuserus his owne words and if I wrong hym herein let hym now before you charge me who thus hath left written None is knowne in our tyme to be made an Arian who was not a Caluinist as Seruetus Blandrata Paulus Alchianus Gentilis Gebraldus Siluanus and others therefore who feareth to faule into Arianisme let hym take heede of Caluinisme Thus you Neuserus so certaine it is that Arianisme Turcisme and Iudaisme are the last sublimations of Caluinisme Well M. Doctour I am cloyed with the society of this discours and can hardly endure any longer with patience the sight of these two Wretches belcking forth such horrible poyson And therefore I will now leaue you and perhapps instaÌ„tly after vpon some vrgent occasions leaue England I could haue wished that this our Dispute had made a deeper impression in you then I feare it hath for your incorporating into the Catholicke Church Neuer the lesse I will pray to God that before your dissolution you may be more solicitous and carefull in this so great a matter which concerns your Soules happines or infelicity for all eternity Touching my selfe I do ingeniously protest that now by meanes of this discours I seeing the weaknes of all that which may be vrged by the learnedest Protestants in defence of this Churches visibility am become hereby more setled and strenghtned in the Catholicke fayth and Religion then afore I was if more I can be But now before I end I cannot but put you in mind M. Doctour how fouly you were ouertaken in your defence of this impious Ochinus for his writing against the sacrifice of the Masse where you may well see that to deny the sacrifice which was first instituted by our Sauiour is a fitting preparation towards the after denyall of our Sauiour himselfe D. REYNOLDS I must confesse Michaeas that notwithstanding whatsoehath bene sayd in this discourse I still remayne a member of the Protestant Church assuring my selfe it is the true Church of Christ Touching my defence of Ochinus his wryting I did it out of my conscience and my conscience I trust will warrant it at the last day For your present departure I am agreiued
after the Apostles With D. Fulke agreeth Peter Martyr thus writing Errours did beginne in the Church presently after the Apostles tymes Peter Martyr heere vnderstanding by the word Errours our Catholycke doctrins with these three last Protestants the Authour of the booke called Antichristus siue pronosticon finis Mundi a Protestant thus iumpeth from the Apostles tymes till Luther the Gospell had neuer open passage Now this hinderance of the Gospell is supposed by hym to proceede from the Pope and Church of Rome therefore during all those tymes the Church of Rome hath beene visible But D Downham confesseth more freely herof who doth include the very tymes of the Apostles with in the Visibility of the Catholycke Roman Church thus teaching the generall defection of the Visible Church foretould 2. Thessol 2. begunne to worke in the Apostles tymes he meaning hereby that the Visibility of our Catholicke Church did obscure in the Apostles dayes the Visibility of his Protestant Church From this Doctours sentence Hospinian the Protestant litle dissenteth who speaking of the Sacrament of the Eucharist thus writeth I am tum primo illo saeculo viuentibus adhuc apostolis c. Euen the very first age the Apostles being aliue the deuill endeuored to deceaue more about this Sacrament then aboute Baptisme with drawing Men from the first forme thereof Thus iudicious Men you may fully see how visible at all tymes our Catholyâ—ke Church hath beene And of this Veritie you may be more fully assured not only by fiction from the discourse of Michaeas the Conuerted Iew but euen from Michaeas The Prophetical Iew Whose praediction of the amplitude and euer conspiâ—uitie of Christs Church and consequently of our Catholycke Church is set downe in these words In nouissimo di erum erit mons domus Domini praeparatus in vertice montium sublimis super colles fluent ad cum Populi Et properabunt gentes multae dicent Venite ascendamus ad montem Domini ad domum Dei Iacob docebit nos de vijs suis at ibimus in semitis â—ius Which Prophecy as it hath beene hitherto fully accomplished in the present Roman Church so on the other syde how vnaptly indeed how falsly it can be applyed to a Conuenticle of Christians which is confessed for many more yeres then a thousand to haue bene wholy latent and Inuisible or rather vtterly extinguished I leaue to your Candour and impartialitie to censure But before I take my leaue with you for this tyme most excellent Men I will cast my eye back vpon the Premisses in grose discussed in this Treatise Yf then it be so as is aboue manifested that the Church of God must at all tymes be resplendent and visible If she must euer enioy the administration of the Word and Sacraments by the ministery of her Doctours and Pastours without any interruption and this with such an imposed Necessity as that the being of them constituteth a Church the want of them destroyeth it Yf we all be bownd vnder payne of eternall damnation to incorporate our selfs into that Church which is beutifyed and enriched with the former spirituall endowments and to auoyde all such Societyes of Men wherein they are wanting seing only the members of Christs true Church are capable of Saluation Yf finally our Catholycke and Roman Church on the one syde by the frequent Confessions of our learned Aduersaryes besids oll other proofs thereof hath alwayes enioyed the said priuiledges of Visibility and administration of the Word and Sacraments And the Protestant Church on the other syde euen by their owne lyke acknowledgments hath bene for many Centuryes and ages wholy distitute and depryued of these spirituall graces and as I may tearme them Immunityes What stupor then and dulnes of mynd or rather what Letargious constitution of the Soule forgetfull of it owne well fare possesseth so infinit Men at this day as to deuyde themselfs from our said Catholycke Church euen in greate hostility and in lien thereof to be ranged with particular and nouelizing Conuenticles The consideration whereof most iudicious Men though I looke not to be of that weigh with you as to moue you actually to implant your selfs in our Catholicke Church yet since you are wyse learned and loth no dowbt to commit any such explorate errours as the force of Naturall Reason and your owne Consciences may freely check I am in good hope that the serious perusall of the poynts aboue disputed will at least preuayle thus far with diuers of you as that you will not be ready hereafter in your discourses so tragically to enueigh and declame against a Religion which is fortyfied which such impugnable and irrefragable proufs as our Catholycke fayth euen from our owne Aduersaryes mouths is euicted to bee But that you being Men professing Conscience Integrity and Ingenuity will beare a more fauorable respecte to the said religion And herewith I will conclude recommending you all in my daily prayers vnto him who out of his Power and Goodnes created vs all and out of his Mercy dyed for vs all to the end that by our professing of a true fayth and exercizing of a vertuâ—us lyfe he might saue vs all seing otherwise we can no more auaylably expect eternall Beatitude then the Patriarchs dying in Egypt could hope to be buried in the Laude of Promisse Laus Deo Beatae Virgini Mariae AN APPENDIX WHEREIN IS TAKEN A SHORT VIEW CONTAINING A FVLL ANSWERE OF A PAMPHLET ENTITVLED A Treatise of the Perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church in all Ages Printed anno 1624. CVRTEOVS READER Thou mayst be aduertized hereby that not long since to wit in the yeare 1624. there came out a certaine Booke entituled A Treatise of the perpetuall Visibility and succession of the true Church in all Ages not subscribed with any Name The reason thereof belike was in that the Authour as guilty to himselfe of his impure proceeding therein durst not iustify neyther himselfe nor this his labour Though the entituling him in the Epistle to the Reader which seemes to be written by some other person then the Authour The most Reuerend Religious and painfull Authour thereof c. doth in the iudgment of many intimate him to be no meane Man but a great mayster in Israel to wit eyther D. White or D. Featly or some other as great as eyther To this concealing of them of the Authours name who as being a Protestant might boldly and without danger subscribe his owne name to his owne Booke farre differently from vs Priests I may ad the Authours affected silence through out his whole Treatise in not touching neither glancing at the then late and fresh Conference had at London euen of this very Subiect of the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages betweene the afore mentioned D White and D. Featly on the one part and M. Fisher and M. Sweete on the other This Authour not so much
with Waldo so descending to Luthers dayes seing by this playne method the Reader might at the first sight and sensibly obserue that he hath omitted contrary to the title of his Booke eleuen hundred yeres without giuing any one instance of Protestancy for all those seuerall ages Therefore he craftily beginneth to instance in the tymes before Luther and so ryseth vpward some foure hundred yeres from this day in his pretended Examples Thus hoping that the vulgar Reader would either through not perusing the booke to the End or through want of Iudgment not so easely and instantly espye how far and no further he had proceeded in these Examples Now touching his Examples he first instanceth in Hus and Ierome of Prage who liued anno Domini 1400. that is some hundred and twenty yeres or thereabouts before Luthers Apostasy To this Example of Hus in which the Pamphleter cheifly insisteth for as for Ierome of Prage he but embraced some of Hus his errours as learning them from him I First answere that supposing Hus had broached all poynts of Protestancy yet followeth it not that Luther had receaued the said Doctryne from Hus by an vninterrupted descent of Beleife as this Authour pretendeth for it may well be that Hus his Errours were extinct in respect of any beleiuers before Luthers dayes Euen as Aerius denyed prayer for the deade and the Hereticke Manichaeus freewill as S. Austin witnesseth yet were those Heresyes vtterly extinguished for many ages till Luther reuiued them Secondly the articles which Hus mantayned different from the Roman Church were but foure as they are recorded by Fox himselfe Of which the doctrine of Communion vnder both kinds was the cheifest though according to the iudgement of Luther it is a point but of In differency In all other points Hus was Catholicke which this Authour calumniously concealeth Thirdly Hus mantayned that acknowledged Heresy on all sydes that Bishopps Princes being in mortall sinne were not to be obayed but thereby did loose all their authority Which Heresy is in like sort wholy concealed by this Pamphleter Concerning the particular prouffes of all which points euen from the Protestants Confessions I referre the Reader to the former Dialogue where Michaeas discouereth them at large as the like he doth of Wicklefe Waldo and others hereafter alledged by this Treatiser Fourthly if the Visibility of the Protestant Church may be iustifyed in Hus or in Waldo Wicklefe or in any other hereafter obtruded for a Protestant by this Pamphleter because eich of them taught two or three at the most of Protestant points then by the same reason may the Protestant Church de sayd to haue beene visible in the Arians for reiecting of Traditions for perpetrating many sacrileges agaynst the Sacraments Altars and Priests in Pelagius for teaching euery sinne to be mortall in Vigilantius for condemning all religious virginity and affirming the relicks of Saincts are not to be worshipped In the Manichees for denying of freewill And in diuers such others All branded Hereticks and registred for such by the orthodoxal Fathers of the Primatiue Church Now this Inference I would entreate the Reader to obserue with peculiar application to all the pretended examples of Protestancy alledged in this Pamphlet Fiftly if we should grant heere all that which is spoken of Hus yet it but warranteth the visibility of the Protestant Church only for the age in which Hus did liue His doctrine not being taught in ages before Now here in this discourse touching Hus I am to put the Reader in mind how this Authour spendeth many idle leaues in showing how the Nobles of Bohemia mantayned the errours of Hus And that they came into the field in great forces agaynst the Emperour in defence of the same so much sayth he was the doctrine of Hus dilated He also introduceth some one or other inueighing against the Popes manners and Cleargy of those tymes and for such their proceedings he tearmeth them Protestants And this method he mightely obserueth throughout his whole Pamphlet Idly inferring as if fayth which resids in the vnderstanding were not different from manners and conuersation which rest in the Will Or that abuses in manners will not euer be in some members of the Church Or finally that a Protestant for charging of some Ministers of his part with disorders of life or Puritans for their bitter inuerghing against the Bishops here in England were therefore to be reputed Roman Catholicks so loosly and weakly he disputeth herein But all these his Digressions in respect of the vndertaken subiect of his discourse are meerly extrauagant And in my iudgment his intention in these and other such dilations and declamatory inuectiues wherewith his Treatise is in many places hereafter fraught is cheifly but to fill vp leaues of paper that so his booke might grow to some reasonable quantity For seeing all his supposed examples of Protestancy in his Treatise might well be contayned omitting all froathy ambages and circumstances in two sheets of paper and seeing such a poore thing could not come forth alone with any credit to the cause or reputation to the writer He therefore thought it more fit to interweaue in his Pamphlet diuers long and tedious discourses how improfitable soeuer This to thinke I am the rather induced in that we may further obserue in how great and large a letter his Booke is printed and how spacious the margent of his leaues are being almost as much paper in quantity as that which is printed And all this as probably may be coniectured to the end that this his learned Tome forsooth might contayne some indifferent number of leaues See how suttle Heresy is in triffles and things of no moment The Authour hauing finished his discours of Hus his adherents followers in the next place riseth to the Waldenses who as is here alledged denyed Purgatory Transubstantiatiō blessing of Creatures First touching Transubstantion what the Pamphleter here deliuereth is a vast Vntruth as appeareth from the testimony euen of Calu 〈…〉 thus wryting Formula Confessionis c. The forme of Cōfession of the Waldenses doctrine doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation who do not confese that the Bread is become truly the body of Christ In lyke sort touching the doctrine of Purgatorie Benedictus Montargensis a Lutheran chargeth the Waldenses therewith from which two Examples we may take a scantling what credit is to be giuen to the Pamphleter in his other Assertions hereafter But grant that the Waldenses did teach some one or other poynt of Protestancy yet in regard of their far greater Number of Catholicke Articles euer beleiued by them and their many execrable Heresies condemned for such both by Catholicks and Protestants both which poynts this Pamphleter pretermitted in silence The Waldenses cannot iustly be exemplified for Protestants Now of the Catholicke Articles as also of the Heresies beleiued by the Waldenses see the Dialogue aboue in the
shaughtered so many thousand Christians and all this warranted vnder the pretext of introducing the Protestant fayth and Religion And for the more iustifying of theese so wicked perpetrations we find diuers most eminent Protestants euen with greate laudes and applauses to celebrate these their attempts To forbeare the Encomion aboue recited giuen by Beza to the Protestant Nobility of Franâ—e who were slayne at the batayle of Dreuz do we not find when euen an inundation of bloud shed through the insurrection and Rebellion of Protestants had ouerflowed most parts of Germany that Luther thus honoreth in words the same Vide or mihi videre Germaniam in sanguine natare c. Christus meus viuit regnat ego vino regnabo It sermes that Germany euen swims with bloud But Christ liueth and reigneth and I will lyue and reigne As also he thus further triumphet heareof Thou complainest that by the Gospell the world is become tumultuous I a sweare God he thanked These things I would haue to bee and woe me miserable Man if such things were not In lyke sort doth not Caluin magnify the former seditions attempts of knox in this maner Knox valiantly bestoweth his labour vpon Christ and his Church O poore weake blast of wynd since iniust praise is no better thus idly spent in commending that which deserueth all discommendation and reproach for I much feare that these Men thus extolled for such their rebellions combustions and assacinacyes are interested in that sentence of Sainct Austin La 〈…〉 vbi non sunt torquentur vbi sunt VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas You haue heare entred into a wyde and wyld excursion of Discourses But I hould them not altogether pertinenm since all your former Instances were vndertaken for depression of superstition and aduancement of the Gospell of Christ The weight whereof is to ouerballance all humane respects And how far a Man may proceede hearein I will not determyne Only I hope I may without offence say that in matters so meâ—rely touching the endangering of our Gospell and for the better beating downe of Antichrist it is a kynd of Passion to be insensible and voyde of Passion But you should Michaeas haue brought some examples of Protestants disloyalty and want of duty against their Protestant Prince if so you had thought to haue wounded our cause indeed But since you haue not nor cannot insist in any such your former Instances wee repute supposing them to be true for lesse materiall and conuincing MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour If it did comport with my present afflicted state or with my due reuerence to this Seate of Iustice I could well smyle to see how you still giue ground more and more in euery of your answeares against our former authorities and examples for whereas the mayne Question heare is Whether the Protestant Religion doth teach any disloyalty to the Prince of what Christian Religion so euer he be And whether the Professours of Protestancy do truly stand chargeable with such their Disloyalty for matter of Religion you now haue heare vsed diuers inflexions and turnings to wynd your selfe out of this Labyrinth For first when Luther and Swinglins were produced out of their owne wrytings to that end You answeare that indeede they were iustly charged thearewith but neuertheles the tymes after them being more refined and purged from all errours were most free from all such imputations When to impugne this reply I did vrge that Caluin Beza Knox Bucanan and diuers others of these dayes did in their book wrytings most confidently defend the same doctrine of Rebellion and disloyalty for defence of Religion Your next sleight was crossing your former answeared to say that though theese later Men did teach the sayd doctryne Yet seing this was but only the speculation of some Protestant Schollars but neuer put in practize by any of them or their followers that therefore their errour was herein the lesse dangerous and more pardonable When to confront this your silly euasion some of the said particuler Protestant wryters and many thousands of other Protestants are vrged by their open rebellions and insurrections actually to haue practized the said speculatiue doctryne of disloyalty You then lastly replyed that all this was vndertaken by them for the defence of the Ghospell and depressing of superstition and Idolatry Which you say may perhaps desearue hearein a myld censure And further you affirme that you hould the Protestants lesse chargeable with any iust fault hearein because they are euer loyall to their Protestant Princes for any attempts touching religion though not euer loyall to their Princes of a different religion from them But how rouing and wandring are all these Replyes from the Question heare ventilated Which was Whether Protestants did teach or put in practize Rebellion and insurrection against their lawfull Princes of what Christian Religion soeuer they were But M. Vice-Chancelour I do heare pardon you For either you must haue openly confessed in the first entrance of this passage that the Protestants do stand obnoxious for teaching and practizing of disloyalty c. Against their true Kings and soueraigns which perhaps you were loath to doe Or otherwyse as being depriued of all better Yf any learned Protestant thinke I do wrong his party by feigningly imposing these euasions vpon the Vice-Chancelour then let that Man set downe such his other owne replyes as he may thinke more satisfying to all the former obiected authorityes and examples and he shal be answeared For I cannot presage what heare could by sayd by any ProtestaÌ„t but either to vse these sleights or otherwyse plainly at the first acknowledge the Protestants doctrine hearein Answeares you must haue bene forced thereby to wine a little tyme to haue vsed your former declynings and subterfugious tergiaersations But belyke you did at the first call to mind that the least degree of weaknes in a Cause wheare nothing but weaknes is is to be reputed as a kynd of strenght and that little sconces are fore the present good fortresses when Castells Rompyers and such other strong forts are Wanting But M. Vice-Ch To trace you in the steps of your last refuge I do heare auonch that Protestants euen to their ProtestaÌ„t Princes only for matter of Religion contrary to this your last assertion haue manifested great disloyalty Thus is your Gospel set against your Gospell I will not say with Esay the Aegiptians against the Aegiptians And here I passe ouer for greater breuity the examples of this Kynd acted in Scotland and Germany euen by Protestants against their Protestant Princes and will a whyle rest in the ouertures and intendments at least heare in England And according heareto we fynd D. Bancroft thus to wryte of the proceeding of the PuritaÌ„s against their Protestant Bishops The Puritans meete and co ferre concerning the proceedings of the Ministers without assistance or staying for the Magistrate And further talking of Penry and other Puritans he thus accuseth
them They would make men to beleiue that they had for the tymes and within their limits an absolute authority as if themselfs were Princes In lyke sort this Doctour reciteth Martin Seinâ—r making mention of a hundred thousand hands and what a stroake so many would stryke together and that Martin affirming their suyte should not be reiected especially in such a tyme whearein we now lyue in danger of our enemyes abroad and therefore had need of no causes of discoradgment at home Thus D. Bancroft cyteth the words of Martin Marprelet and then he giueth his sentence iudgment of this their Menage and tearmeth it thus A speech at least seditions This Doctour also further discoureth the threats of the Puritans against the Magistrate and he alledgeth one of their comminations thus in their owne words We haue sought to aduance this cause of God by humble suyte to the Parlament by wryting c. seing none of these meanes vsed by vs haue preuayled if it come by that meanes which will make all your harts to ake blame yourselfs Finally not to stay long hearein D. Succlif thus speaketh of Martin Marprelate Martin wisheth that the Parlament would bring in the Eldership notwithstanding her Maiestyes resisting of it vz by a rebellion They bragged of a hundred thousand hands and in playne â—â—armes talked of Massacring their Aduersaries Thus D. Succlif with whome I will heare end VICE-CHANCELOVR Though I cannot deny Michaeas the former attempts of the Protestants Yet since not only the Papists Doctrine but also the mainfold traiterous desigments and reall practizes of them against their Protestant Prinâ—es are no lesse tragicall then the former related by you are I do not see but that granting the Protestants to be faulty in defect of Loyalty you Papists may in a far more high degree be iustly insimulated within the said Cryme Good God your treasons and machinations haue bene so apparent and so approued by the consent almost of all other Papists as that I may truly pronounce that in the whole thronge of Papists a true and Loyal Papist towards his Protestant Soueraigne so rare such an one is is lyke a Diamond placed among many whyte Saphyrs So iust reason had the learned D. Morton to say of your Profession We may now expect as well a white Ethiopian as a loyall Subiect of this Religion MICHAEAS Alas M. Vice-Chancelour These are but verball exagerations without prouffe which as they are but wynde of spâ—enfull tongues so are they blowne away with the Wynd Be it that some Catholicke Doctours in certaine peculiar Cases do ascrybe a powrfull authority to the Pope against Princes And grant also that some few Catholicks haue proued to be to the ineffable greife and dislyke of all other good and sober Catholicks Disloyall to their Prince Yet since the difference both of their doctrines and circumstances of their attempts are incomparably short and inferiour to the doctrynes and reall insurrections of the Protestants against their Soueraignes You haue no reason M. Vice Chancelour thus to insult in galantry of such amplifying speeches against vs. Therefore I will paralell them heare together that so you seeing the greate disparty may â—ecall for shame those your speeches and suffer your cheekes to witnes your former errour And first touching the doctrine The Protestants I meane those former alledged Protestants do extend this power of deposing Princes to euery pore parochial superintendent who is Pope or so would be within his owne circuit yea for want of such a turbulent fellow if at any tyme theare can be a want of these they giue this liberty as aboue I haue showed to the base Common people and promiscuous multitude the many headed tyrants of all humane societyes The Catholicke deuynes who most defend such transcendency of proceedings do neuertheles ascrybe the doing of it to the Pope only who is a stranger and therefore further of from any such sudden present attempting and who himselfe in case of Heresy as a priuate person lyeth open to the same perill This also they teach must be done by many former sweete admonitions and proceedings To proceede to the attempts on both sides The Protestants haue actually deposed seuerall Kings Queenes and absolute soueraigns Thus is the King of Spayne deposed of a greater part of the Lowcontryes the King of France of certaine Cittyes in France The supreme Lord of Geneua of his Territory belonging to that Cittie The Emperour of many Imperiall Cittyes in Germany King Sigismond of his Kingdome of Sweueland and Finally his Maiesties Grandmother and Greatgrandmother of the Kingdome of Scotland The Pope and the Catholicks haue neuer yet to this day actually detroned any one absolute Protestant Prince or King throughout all Christendome of their Sates and Territoryes The greatest matter of this nature that can be alledged is the excommunications of King Henry the eight of England Queene Elizabeth his daughter and King Henry of France the fourth The Protestants haue come into the fyeld against their Catholicke Princes in many huge Armyes and hundred thousans of men as appeareth by the warrs made by them in the Low Countryes France Germany which warrs haue continued for many yeres The Catholicks neuer yet leuyed any such Armyes against their protestant Prince Lastly the Protestants haue not only deposed their Princes of seuerall states and Countryes but they haue really impatronized themselues of the sayd states and keept them in their owne possession as is ouer manifestly euident by the examples of Rochel in France Geneua Holland Zeland seuerall parts of Germany Sweueland Transiluania c. The Catholicks to this very day haue not made themselues Lords of any one towne or Citty much lesse of any state or Kingdome which haue belonged to their protestant Princes And thus farre touching the libration and weighing in an euen hand the doctrine and attempts taught and made by ProtestaÌ„ts Catholicks in point of disloyalty against their lawfull dread soueraigns of a different Religion And now M. Vice-Chancelour after the true vnfoulding of these matters which afore were lapped vp in a great mistaking I demaund of you where are your former Termini Conuertibilis of Papistry Disloyalty Your similitude of one Diamond among many worthles Saphyrs And D. Mortons strange beast As if all Papists and â—o Protestants were guilty of Treason and Rebellion against their lawfull Princes so fowly you see your selfe was mistaken therein and so wildly did your Doctourâ—aue â—aue of a whyte Ethiopian L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas I am tyred with learning thus much of this distastfull Theame and I am vnwilling you should spinne out this discours to any further lenght Therefore you may heere end And truly I would scarse haue beleiued till now my owne eyes much lesse my eares that the Protestants wrytings and actions had stood so iustly subiect to this kind of Reprehension But I must yield though with greife to such euident testimonyes as you haue produced
and the rather seeing you M. Vice-Chancelour suffer them to passe without eyther gainsaying the testimonyes alledged or denying the Examples insisted vpon But Michaeas notwithstanding the truth of all what you here haue sayd Neuerthelesse you haue proceeded very partially in your discourse seeming to inuolue all Protestants within the greiuous offence of disloyalty because some of them do deseruedly stand obnorious thereto And you deale as iniustly herein as if one should charge all mankind with drunkennes because many men do sinne therein But I feare you repute no men loyall but those of your owne religion MICHAEAS My honourable Lord. be such ouersight far distant from my thoughts and God forbid my charitable conceats should be enriched within so narrow a compasse as Your Lordship seemes to coniecture No. I do willingly acknowledge that many Protestant Doctours haue in their wrytings learnedly defended the right and royalty of absolute Princes against their subiects of a contrary religion I also do as fully acknowledge that theare are many thousand Protestants in the world who no dowbt would spend their lyues and liuings in defence of their Souerain of a different fayth whos loue zeale and loyalty is caried with a most forcible bent to their Princes safety and honour What is aboue deliuered by me is euen forcedly drawne out of me by way of recrimination since M. Vice-Chancelour would neuer cease to weary your Lordship idly beate the wynd in obiecting Disloyalty to me and my Religion Therefore my good Lord do not thinke I do extend my former discours to Protestants in generall or particularly to the Protestants of England in these dayes whose laudable confessed Loyalty farre be it froÌ„ me in any sort to impugne but rather my pene shall be ready vpon iust occasion to celebrate such their due praises thearein But to be short your Lordshid may obserue that what is aboue spoken is spoken not by me but by the Protestants themselfs and acknowledged as so spoken and therefore condemned by other learned Protestants What dislyke then I may incure heareby the same doth necessarily attend vpon D. Bancroft D. Bilson D 〈…〉 uâ—cliffe and other moderate protestants condemning the foresaid protestants of disloyalty I am but the poore Relater of their words and can be reputed no more faulty hearein then is the Herauld for openly proclayming the rebellion of a subiect against his prince or the Printer for printing a history contayning the manifest confessed vices of some particuler Men. VICE-CHANCELOVR Well well Michaeas All what you haue said to which for this tyme I will forbeare further to reply is not sufficient to wash out the staynes of those other cryms which you haue perpetrated in our vniuersity You are come hither to make a rekoning for them and not for to rauell out the tyme in long and tedious perorations I say that besydes your disloyall positions which you haue distilled into our Schollars iudgments which are ouer manifest howsoeuer you do palliate them with impudent denyalls and subtill recriminations you haue enuenomed some of them with many superstitious and Popish doctrines And not content to effect the same in words and speeches only you haue not forborne so precipitious and impetuous you are in your designs euen to wryte certaine short Treatises of the said Popish Opinions geuing them to your Proselytes that so the poyson of theese your doctrines thus spreading it selfe and multiplyed through these your aery wrytyngs as through a well disposed Medium may the more speedely affect the sense and vnderstanding of the more weake students Now My Lord if such a Man who hath thus discolered the beauty and reputation of our otherwise most famous Vniuersity shall escape vnpunished then insteed of due vnpunishments let vs erect Tropheys and garlands of Honour to Men for their attempted impietyes And that your Lordship shall not fynde this my Accusation to be only verball but that you may rest assured that this Man perswadeth Men to worship God contrary to the Law I haue heare brought vnto your L. a Copye of Michaeas his owne hand writing of euery such Papistical doctrine by hym vented out Heare the wrytings are which I deliuer at this present into your L. hands to peruse at your pleasure The which after your L. haue red you shall find them to be but certaine roâ—ing Paperbulletts shot by Michaeas against the walls of our florishing Vniuersity Which for the tyme may perhaps make some small crack and noyse but cannot batter so fortified and firmely seated our Academy is through the strenght of the Ghospell CERTAINE SHORT DSICOVRSES TOVCHING SOME POINTS OF CATHOLICKE RELIGION WRITTEN BY MICHAEAS THE CONVERTED IEW AND FIRST That the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments are not the true Notes of Christs Church And that admitting them for such they make wholy against the Protestants and for the Catholicks THIS Question will take it best illustration and vnfoulding if it be considered first Categorically and absolutly in it selfe To wit whether the Administration of the Word Sacraments can be reputed to vs for Notes of the Church Secondly Hypothetically that is that if by supposall it be granted for the tyme that they are the true Notes of the Church Whether the said Notes do preiudice the Protestant Church and aduantage our Catholicke Church or no Both theese poynts shall heare be discussed And first of the first Wheare the Reader is in the beginning to vnderstand that the true Reason why Caluin the Confession of Augusta D. W 〈…〉 guift D. Whitakers and all other Pro 〈…〉 in generall do prescribe theese as Notes of the Church is for two respects first that by this meanes themselves may be Vmpiers where and which is the true Church seing they alone through their misapplication of the Scripture and priuiledge that they ascribe to their owne Spirits interpreting the Scripture will with a Lordly peremptorines decree and set downe Where and when the Word is truly preached and the Sacraments duly administred they reiecting all other Mens interpretation heerein and consequently where and which is the true Church The second reason of the Protestants constituting theese as Notes is Because on the one side they see that the Church of Christ by force of all Reason and prudence is to enioye some Notes for it distinguishing from all prophane Conuenticles And on the other side they well discouer that the Notes of the Church assigned by Catholicke Wryters to wit Antiquity Sucâ—ession of Pasteurs an â—niâ—terrupâ—â—d Visibility Working of M 〈…〉 s Holinâ—s of Life and doctrine Vaity and diuers others of like nature are by all Ecclesiasticall Authours reason and experience and by the Protestants confessions peculiar to our Catholicke Church and incomparible with their protestant Church Therfore in this their want of beâ—teâ— Notes seing euen for very shame some Notes their Church must haue they haue thought it good policy to erect the preaching of the
Word and vse of the Sacraments as Notes And thus they reiecting all former Catholicke Notes do reduce as aboue is said the determining of which is the true Church to the inappealable and last Resort of their owne priuate opinions passed vpon the true preaching of the Word and the due administration of the Sacraments But now to come to the Question it selfe touching these Protestant Notes Where the â—eader for the more cleare setting downe of the state of the Question and his owne better instruction is to conceaue first that these Protestant Notes supposing them to be Notes of the Church prooue only the place where the Church is but not which is the Church Which here is only the Question Secondly the Reader is to call to mind that whereas a Note may be of two sorts The one in respect of Nature the other in respect of vs according to the doctrine of the learned Protestants themselues thus teaching Nottus est duplex Vnum Naturae vlterum nobis that here the Question is only of such Notes as are Notes in respect of vs for our better informing which is the true Church since here we are instructed à postartori and according to the measure of that knowledg which God vouchsafes to affoard to vs. And not as they are Notes in respect of Nature Which Notes in regard of Nature are euer 〈…〉 sicall secret and often essentiall to the thing of which they are Notes Now in reference hereto we freeâ—y grant that the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments may be tearmed Notes of the Church but not Notes to vs which is the only point now isluable for though they be Notes in Nature of the true Church yet what anayleth it vs since they are not Notes to vs for our direction to find which is the true Church And here we are to remember that the Question is not what kind of Notes or what kind of knowledge is better for it is granted that scire per Causas is most perfect and noble but the Question is what kind of knowledge God is content to imparte to vs in this life for the attayning of the Mysteryes of our fâ—â—th and particularly for the knowing searching out which is his Church Now that the true preaching of the Word and vse of the Sacraments cannot be erected as notes of Christs Church I euer meane in respect of vs is seuerall wayes demonstrated And first this I prooue from the Nature of a Note which is euer to be of a greater perspicuity and clearnes and better knowne to vs then the thing is of which it is a Note Since otherwise it should follow an inference both in reason and Art most absurd that that which is vnknowne should be prooued by an other thing which is lesse knowne anâ— more obscure That the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments which is but a necessary 〈◊〉 to the true preaching of the Scripture are more obscure and vnknowne to vs then is the Church I prooue first from the Scripture which teacheth that true sayth which is the effect of true preaching the Word proceedeth only from the Ministery of the Church according to that how shall they beleiue whom they haue not heard and ho 〈…〉 sh aâ— they heare without a Preacher Thus Gods sacred Word we see doth presuppose that the Minister who is the member of the Church and consequently it followeth hereby that the Church must be afore knowne doth reueale vnto vs the true sense of the Scripture And therefore Caluin thus well sayth of this point Deus potest memo 〈…〉 sues perficere nolit tamen eos adolâ—scere in 〈…〉 ilem â—tatem nisi educatione Ecclesiae God can peâ—fect and instruct vs in a moment meaning touching fayth yet he will not bring vs to any manlike as it were and perfect strength therein but by the help and labâ—ur of the Church And hence it is that in all Controuersyes touching fayth we are alwayes for the determining of them botâ— in the iudgments of the auncient Fathers and learned Protestants referred to the Church Among whom I cannot here pretermit the sentence of D. Field thus wryting Seeing tâ—e Controuersies in our tyme are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate c. What remayneth for meâ— dâ—sirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but deligeâ—tly to search out which among all the societyes of Men in the World is that blessed Company of Holy Ones that house-hould of fayth that spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they m 〈…〉 follow her directions and reâ—i in her 〈◊〉 Thus we are instructed by this learned Protestant to know which is the true fayth in all Controuersyes and sincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Word from the Church and not to know which is the Church from the sincere preaching of the Word Secondly that the true prea 〈…〉 of the Word and the vse of the Sacrements â—re more ob 〈…〉 and difficult to vs to be knowne then to know 〈◊〉 is the true Church appeareth from the voluntâ—â—y acknowledgments of our most iudicious Aduersaries For greater 〈◊〉 heareiâ— I will insist only in oâ—e or two And to omit the answearable iudgment hearto of D. Fyeld potentially included in his 〈…〉 met words We do fynd Iustus Molitor a learned Protestant and Aduersary in his 〈…〉 gs to Cardinal Beâ—lâ—rmyâ—e thus to confes Nobis Quo ad iud 〈…〉 s â—o fâ—sâ— alâ— qua notitià prius vera Eccles 〈…〉 quam 〈◊〉 praedicatio 〈…〉 oâ—escit c. The true Church by a cert 〈…〉 co 〈…〉 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 kâ—oâ—ne to vs according to the iudgment of reâ—son then the preaching of the true word is knowne With whom c 〈…〉 pireth in exprâ—s Words the foresaid mentioned 〈…〉 testart Lubbertus thus wryting Sacramenta in v 〈…〉 nt nobis m 〈…〉 quam â—psa Ecclesia The true vse of the 〈…〉 ments iâ— lesse knowne â—o vs 〈◊〉 the Church And 〈◊〉 geueth his â—eason hereof in these Words Nobis notioâ—a su 〈…〉 externa signaâ—per quae remâ— quâ—â—doque cogn 〈…〉 The external signes are more man 〈…〉 st 〈◊〉 vâ— by which we know a thiâ—g 〈◊〉 heareby impâ—ying that the true administration of the word Sacraments is internal and inward in respect of the true externall Notes of the Church For although eich preaching of the Word and vse of Sacraments be externall and subâ—ect to the outward Sense yet which is the true preaching of the word and true administration of the Sacraments for as they are purely preached and sincerely administred so and no otherwise are they appoynted by the Protestants for the Marks of the Church is internal since truth in doctryne is internal and inuisible We may ad hearto that in the note of true preaching the word the beliuing receauing it so preached this with perseuerance is included
by our Aduersaries doctrine as a part of the same Note But how can it be known whether the Word though truly preached be truly heard and beleiued with a final perseuerance So far distant is this pretended Note from being for our direction a true Note of the Church An other Argument for the impugning of the Protestants former Notes may be this The Scripture it selfe cannot be made knowne to vs to be Scripture but by the attestation of the Church for as for that sentence which teacheth that the Maiesty and voyce of God which appeareth in the Scripture or the Priuate Spirit iudging of it assâ—eth vs which is true Scripture it is an exploded Errour Seing one Man is persuaded he fyndeth in those books which himselfe admitteth for scripture that Maiesty and voyce of God the which very books for want of the said supposed voyce or Maiesty an other Man vtterly reiecteth as Apocryphil And in lyke sort the priuat Spirit of this Man embraceth such books as Canonical the which bookes the Priuat Spirit of an other absolutely discanoneth Now this being granted it from hence ineuitably resulteth that first we must know which is the true Church to giue this approbation of the Scripture before we can know which is the Scripture and much more then before we can be assured which is the true preaching of the word and sincere construction or Sense of the Scripture Now that our knowing which is Scripture proceedeth from the authoritie of the Church I first proue not only from S. Austin who saith n Actibus Apostolorum necesse est me credere si câ—edo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholiea commendat Ecclesia But also from the acknowledgement of our learned Aduersaries whose words in their wrytings to this purpose are most plentifull I will content myselfe referring the Reader to the references of others at this tyme with Peeter Martyr and M. Hooker Peter Martyr thus wryteth We acknow ledge it to be the function of the Church seing it is endued with the Holy Ghost that it should discerne the true and proper books of Scripture M. Hooker more fully 〈…〉 th heare of saying Of thing necessary the very cheifest is to know what bookes we are to 〈◊〉 â—â—ly Which poynt is confessed impossible for the Scripture it selfe to teach c. For of any Booke of Scripture did geus testimony to â—ll et stiâ— that Scripture which geneth credit to the rest world require â—n other Scripture to gâ—ue credit vnto it Neither could we come to any paâ—se whe reon to rest vnles besids Scripture theare were something which might assurs vs. Which thiâ—g M. Hockeâ—man other place articulatly â—earmeth The authority of Gods Church thus saying We all know the 〈◊〉 outward Motyue leading Men to esteeme of the Scripture is the authority of the Church Now if by these learned Mens conâ—ession the Church hath authority to propownd to vs which bookes presented for Scripture are true Scriptures and which are Apocryâ— hall and spurious then followeth it that the Church hath in lyke sort authority to propownd to vs which is the true and pure sense of the Scripture since the one is as necessarye to vs as the other for it aduantageth vs litle to know which are the vndoubted bookes of Scripture if so we know not which is the true sense of the Scripture Now out of the Premisses I demonstratiuely conclude that seing by the authority of the Church and not otherwise we are tought which â—ookes of Scripture are Canonicall and consequently which is the true sense of the said Scripture that therefore the Church being fâ—ster in odeâ— of knowledg to vs then either the Scripture or the true preaching of the word of Scripture the true preaching of the word is not nor can be apprehended to be a Note to vs to find thearby which is the true Church Since then it would follow an absurdity incompatible with all true discours of Reason that a thing which to vs is later knowne should be a Note to vs of that which by vs is first knowne An other argument may be drawne from the Nature of euery true Note which ought to be so peculiar to that of which it is a Note as that it cannot be applyed in the iudgment of others to it meare Contrary But we see different sectaryes teaching contrary doctrynes and professing themselfs to be members of different Churches do all neuertheles promiscuously challenge the true preaching of the Words and the vse of the Sacrements to be the Notes of their so much discording Churches or Conuenticles And therefore the afore named Lubbertus thus truly pronounceth of this poynt Praedicatio Sacramentorum communicatio similia Ecclesiae essentiam non attingunt sunt enim Haereticorum conuerticulis veris Christianorum Ecclesiâ—s communia The preaching of the word the distribution of the Sacraments and such like do not belong to the essence of the Church since these things are common both to the Conuenticles of Hereticks and to the true Churches of Christians And according hearto we find by experience that Lutherans Protestants and PuritaÌ„s theaching most repugnante doctrines do wartant these their doctrines by the former Notes of preaching the Word And therefore it from hence followeth that it is no lesse a madnes in our aduersaries to prescrybe the preaching of the word and the vse of the Sacraments for the notes of the Church which are common to all Hereticall Conuenticles at least in their owne Opinion then for one who would discouer and note out one particular Man from all others to distinguish him from them by saying It is he who hath two eyes one nose one mouth two armes c. Since these Notes or description are common to all men in generall Againe I thus dispute A true Note of any thing ought to be at all tymes without discontinuance a Note theareof and not sometymes only since otherwise it is but a temporary Note But theare hath bene a Church of God euen then when there was no Scripture at all much lesse any preaching or interpretation of the Word Therefore the preaching of the word cannot be erected as a true Note of the Church The Assumption of this argument is manifest For it is acknowledged that the Church of God continued two thousand yeres before Moyses his tyme without any Scripture and therefore D. Parkins truly thus saith Morses was the first pennman of Holy Scripture With whom agree Zanchius D. Whitakers and all other learned Men whosoeuer Againe after Moyses had pened the Scripture it remayned only in the custody of the Iewes and was among them for many yeres lost as it is granted euen by the marginall annotations of the English Bibles of the yere 1576. where it is said That it was either by the negligence of the Priests lost or by the wickednes of idolatreus Kings And yet euen in those tymes Iob and
Brother because an Oâ—pring was then begotteÌ„ of that former Mariadg to wit the daughter of Herodiades who so pleased the King with dansing that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades begotte by the Brother of Herod is acknowledged by the testimony of Chrisostome Secondly I further answeare to this example of Herod that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest but also adultery since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother he being yet liuing as S. Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes and Iosephus auerreth the same Thus far then of this poynt to show that all the Precepts of Leâ—iticus touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg are not commanded by the law of Nature and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law for the euer obseruing of them But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable And consequently that the Church of Christ may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloqâ—y of our Aduersaries charging the Pope that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament consequently by his owne doctrine vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament which was first instituted by Christ and therefore inaltorable by Man To which false aspertion I answeare that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg Christ did not appoint or set downe but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons for the contracting of mariadge And in this sort the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament But doth not nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge And herewith I conclude this short discours touching this subiect That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ or reiect those words in the Decalogue Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. But that they willingly acknowledge them as part of the Decalogue howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechisâ—es and Primars VVHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale through their affected fraud in their Catechisâ—nes and Primars one commandement and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ To wit Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen or on earth beneath neyther of those things which are in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them c. This I say is eyther a fraudulent or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries For the truth is those words heere recited do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me these later being but a more full explication of the first words and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements This is thus prooued Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements but only that which may be truly called an Idoll that is an Image which is taken for God or which representeth God to be that thing which God is not Therefore when it is sayd Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden But in those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited Of which point most at large Saint Austin discourseth Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God appeareth in that the Scripture telleth vs that God himselfe commanded Images to be made According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins Lyons and Oxen to be made In the Booke of Numbers the brazen serpent And in Exodus the Images of the Cherubin to be made From whence we may infallibly conclude that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God as a distinct precept from the first but only so farre forth as the Images be taken for God and consequently that as is aboue said these words forbidding the making of Images do but make one the same Commandement with the first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine Againe Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited in the former words of the Decalogue then should it follow that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten but eleuen or twelue an inference incompatible with the Scripture it selfe which in expresse words teacheth that there are but ten Commandements The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued It is granted on all sides that those words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me is one Precept That thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne is an other A third Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day A fourth Honour thy Father and thy Mother A fift Thou shalt not kill A sixt Thou shalt not commit adultery A seauenth Thou shalt not steale An eight Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour A ninth Thou shalt noâ— couet c. Now that Thou shalt not couet c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts so as the ninth Precept shal be Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife the tenth Thou shalt not coâ—ct thy neighbours Oxe nor his Asse nor any thing that is his Or els those word Thou shalt not couet c. with all the words following to wit his Wife his Oxe his Asse or any thing that is his do make but one precept or Commandement Yf they ought to be deuided into two then followeth it that those words Thou shalt not make any grauen â—mage c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement contrary to the Scripture or that this is not a distinct precept froÌ„ the first videlicet Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me As Clemens Alexander Saint Austin all schoolemen and Latin Catechismes do teach And then it followeth that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words but only that which is taken for an other God Now if supposing further that that thou shalt not couet c. be only one Precept as some other fathers do hould then to make vp the tenth Commandement all those words Thou shalt not
Churches is taught as true and warrantable doctrine by diuers learned Protestants as by Cempnitius by Luther and Brentius Iacobus Andreas c. But now I will conclude this discourse touching Images with a most authenticall and strange miracle wrought by the Image of Christ and recorded by Eusebius Theophilact and Zozemene all auncient graue Wryters whose authorityes herein if we reiect we reiect by the same reason the proofe of all other things recorded by auntient Historiographers It was this The woman whom our Sauiour cured of the bloody flux caused to be made a brazen Image of Christ at the foote whereof did spring a strange hearb the which hearbe after it did ascend so high as to touch the scirt of the Image it had vertue to cure all diseases Which vertue no doubt God would not haue imparted to the Hearbe but only in manifestation that due respect might lawfully be giuen to the Image of Christ And thus far touching the Catholicke doctrine of Images Touching Prayer to Saincts TOuchinge Prayer to Saincts I will deliuer the Catholicke doctryne thereof in certaine Propositions which Propositions may searue as certaine graduall stips or degrees of this Controuersye The first Proposition may be this It is not lawfull to pray to Saincts as authours or principall dispensours of diuine benefitts to obtaine from them either grace or glorye or the meanes of obtaining our Eternall felicitie much lesse the Crawne of glory or heauen it selfe Since in this sense to pray to them were according to the iudgment of S. Austin and all Catholicks to make Saincts Gods And therefore if at any time the words directed to Saincts should sound otherwyse as when we say Our Lady healpe me c. We are heare to insist in the sense not in the naked words That is Our Lady healpe me by her intercession and prayers to her sonne and no otherwyse Euen as we fynd that S. Paule saith of hymselfe If I may saue some of them meaning of the Gentills And againe the sayd Apostle saith of hymselfe To all Men I am become all things that I might saue all meaning to saue all not as God but only healping them and furthering their Saluation by his preaching to them and by his prayers for them Which words of the Apostle being truly vnderstoode may searâ—e well to stop the Mouths of the Protestant Ministers for their often mistaking and misinterpreting of the Catholicke Doctrine touching prayer to Saincts The second Proposition Saincts are not our immediate Mediatours by way of intercession with God But whatsoeuer they demande or obtayne of God for vs they demaund and obtayne it through Christ and his Merits And according hearto we find that all the Prayers of the Church which are made to Saincts end with this clause Per Christum Dominum nostrum For we willingly acknowledge that no Man coÌ„meth to the Father by the Sonne And that their is but one Mediatour of Redemption though all the Saincts may be tearmed our Mediatours by way of Intercession The third Proposition The Saincts which reigue with Christ do pray for vs and this not only in generall but in particular That is for particular Men and for the particular Necessityes of the same Men. This is proued first from those words in Ieremy If Moyses and Samuel shall stand before me my Soule is not towards this People From whence it is inferred that Moyses and Samuel then being dead might and were accustomed to pray for the People of Israel Secondly the same is proued from the Example of Angells who do pray for vs and haue a care of vs in particular as appeareth out of seuerall passages of Scripture But if the Angells do pray for vs then much more Saincts seing so far forth as appertayneth to this function nothing is wanting to the Saincts in Heauen which Angells haue for they are endued with Intelligence or Vnderstanding and with Will they are euer in the presence of God they loue vs vehemently and finally they are equall euen with Angells Besids some priuiledges they haue in this point which are wanting in Angells to wit that Saincts are more conioyned and vnited members of the body of the Church and that they haue tryed our dangers and Miseries which Angells haue not Thirdly the former Proposition is proued from the many apparitions of Saincts which haue euidently testified that they do pray for vs euen in particular Of diuers such particular Apparitions See Eusebius Austin Basill Gregory Nazianzene Gregory Nyslene and Theodoret all which testimonyes of so auncient and reuerend Fathers to reiect touching matter of fact by answearing that all such relations are fabulous is in effect and by necessarie inference to take away all authority of Ecclesiasticall and humane Historyes The fourth and last Proposition Saincts and Angells are religiously and profitably inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing Men. This is proued First Wee reade that Iacob blessing the sonns of Ioseph thus saith The Angell which hath deliured me from all Euill blesse these Children wheare we see that Iacob expressly inuoketh these Angell Againe we reade thus in Iob. Call if any will answeare thee and turne to some of the Saincts Wheare by the word Saincts he meaneth Angells according to the exposition of Sainct Austin Secondly this last Proposition is proued from that that in both the Testaments the Liuing were inuoked and prayed vnto by liuing as in the first Booke of the Kings and in the last of Iob. In lyke sort in the Epistle to the Romans S. Pauli thus saith Brethren I beseach you that you all healpe me in your prayers for me to God Which Kynd of prayer the Apostle vseth in the Epistle to the Ephesians in the first to the Thessalonians in the second to the Thessalonians in his epistle to the Colossians to the Hebrewes So familiar and vsuall was this to S. Paull Therefore from hence I conclude that now it is lawfull to inuoke and pray to the said Men being now Saincts and raigning with Christ This Inference is most necessarye demonstratiue For if it be not now lawfull to pray to them It is either because the Saincts now in Heauen will not healpe vs with their intercession to God But this is not so seing the Saincts in Heauen enioye greater Charity then they had heare vpon earth Or els in that the Saincts cannot healpe vs with their prayers And this lesse true for if they could afore healpe vs with their prayers they being then but Pilgrims much more now they being arryued into their Country Or els because they do not know what we pray or demaund of them But this is false for looke from whence the Angells do know the Conuersion of sinners for which they so much reioyce in Heauen as we reade in S. Luke from the same source or wellspring
of knowledge the Saincts do know our prayers Or lastly because we offer iniury to God and Christ if we pray to any other then to him alone But this is the least of all true seing by the same reason it should not be lawfull for vs to pray to the liuing that they would pray for vs And then consequently Saint Paul should haue beene most iniurious to God and Christ in praying to the Romans the Ephesians the Thessalonians the Colossians and the Hebrews to pray for him to God Therefore as it is no iniury but an honour to Kings when their friends are honored and Embassadours are sent to them Euen so heere there is no iniury done to God but honour when the Saincts of God are honored by praying vnto them not as to Gods but as to the friends of God since otherwise it would follow that he should commit an iniury to God as is aboue sayd who should desire entreate the prayers of the liuing This argument is vnanswerable and the rather since the Saincts in Heauen are members of the same Church of which the liuing are they also wholy relye vpon the same intercession of Christ with the liuing for what they desire for vs that they desyre of God through the merits of our Sauiour Christ This doctrine of Inuocation of Saincts is further prooued from seuerall auncient Councells whose places for greater breuity I referre the Reader to As to the Epistle of the Bishops of Europe written to Leo the Emperour which epistle is adioyned to the Councell of Calcedon the Councell of Chalcedon it selfe the sixt generall councell the seauenth generall couÌ„cell besides diuers others That the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church beleiued practized this doctrine of praying to Saincts is euident from the references herein the margent See then hereof Dionisius Areopagita Ireneus Eusebius Athanasius h Basill Chrysostome Gregory Nyssene Hilary Ambrose Ierome Austin and others This point of the Fathers iudgment and practize herein is so manifest as that we fynd it to be thus confessed of them by the learned Protestants M. Fulke thus sayth I confesse that Ambrose Austin and Ierome did hould Inuocation of Saincts to be lawfull The sayd D. Fulke doth further thus write In Nazianzen Basill and Chrysostome is mention of Inuocation of Saincts And yet more fully the same D. thus confesseth Many of the auncient Fathers did hould that the Saincts departed do pray for vs. In which generall condemnation of the Fathers herein D. Whitguift the Archbishop of Canterbury thus coÌ„spireth with the foresayd D. Fulke Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the Greeke Church and Latin also for the most part were spotted with the doctrine of Inuocation of Saincts and such like points To conclude D. Couell thus 〈…〉 peth with the former Protestants saying Diuers both of the Greeke and Latin Church were spotted with the errour about the Inuocation of Saincts Now that the Protestants do not only confesse the auncient Fathers iudgment hearein but that also diuers of them do beleiue the doctrine 〈◊〉 selfe to be true is no lesse cleare For we find Luther hymselfe thus to wryte De intercessione diuorum cum tota Ecclesia Christiana sentio Sanctos a nobis honâ—randos esse inuocandoâ— With whom agree Oâ—colampadius Latimer and diuers Protestants in Polonia Now I will end this poynt in setting the iudgment of learned Fathers and Catholicks touching the manner how Saincts do heare out prayers Which is that Saincts as being in Heauen euen from their first beginning of their beatitude and happines do see all things in God as in a cleare glasse which belong vnto them any way according to that Quid est quod ibi nâ—sciunt qui scie tem omâ—â—a sciunt And therefore they see and heare our prayers directed vnto them And hence it is that the holy Soules before our Sauiours Incarnation and Ascention being in Lyâ—bus Patrum were not prayed vnto because they then not being in Heauen could not heare the prayer of the liuing made to them And therefore no maruayle if neither in the old Testament nor in the new we find no expresse examples of prayer made to Saincts To the former maner how saincts do see the actions of the liuing and do heare their prayers I may adioyne an other manner of hearing theÌ„ allowed taught by S. Austin other Fathers Which is that God out of his speciall fauour and loue to his Saincts doth open and reueale to them the particular states and prayer of their friends yet liuing in the World Now how agreable it is to all force of Reason that Saincts in Heauen should know the affayres of their liuing friends is seuerall wayes proued First because the Angells in Heauen reioyce at the conuertion of a sinneâ— Therefore the Angells know the particular states of liuing Men. But if the Angells do then by the same Reason the Saincts doe seeing so far as concerne this poynt theare is no difference betweene the Angells and the Saincts Secondly the Nature of their beatitude requireth such knowledge of the affayres of their liuing friends For seeing their Happynes is a mayne Ocean of all ioyes no kind of happines being to them wanting which is requisite for them to haue therefore it followeth that for their greature measure of their felicity they are to haue notice of the miseryes wants prayers of their liuing friends And this the rather seing Nature is not abolished but betered and perfected by grace from whence we may gather that the Saincts in heauen do not abandon reiect the cares states of their liuing friends but do still retayne though with greater perfection their former naturall desire to know releiue the state of their said friends Thirdly This priuiledge of Saincts knowing the state and hearning the prayers of the liuing best sorteth to the nobility and worth of their beatificall and happy Vision of God For if God hath honored diuers of his friends whyles they liued in this world with the guyft of Prophecy as he did Daniell Ezechiel Esay Dauid and many others wheareby diuers of them reuealed many things to come meerely depending of Mans freewill and therefore not forseene in their causes as also did tell at the very tyme they were donne things donne in places far distant and remote from them How can it then otherwyse be but that his diuine Maiesty is most willing to communicate vnto his Saincts the state and prayers of the liuing To the force of which Reason S. Austin subscribeth in theese words Yf the Prophet Elizaeus absent in body did see the brybe his seruant Geizi did take of Nâ—man syrus c. How much more in that spirituall bodye shall Saincts see all things c. When God shal be All in all vnto vs Lastly the damned spirits and
God for which you suffer See the like texts noted in the margent That the auncient Fathers mantayned the doctrine of merit of works see for greater breuity Ignatius Ireneus Basill Chrysostome Nazianz Nyssene Cyprian Ambrose Austin Ierome The iudgment of the auncient Fathers touching merit of works is discouered besides by their owne testimonyes euen from the acknowledgment of the Protestants For first we find D Humfrey to confesse in this s 〈…〉 rt Ireneus Clemens and others called Apostolicall haue in their wrytings merit of Works In like sort the Centurists thus charge Chrysostome Chrysostome handleth impurely the doctrine of iustification and attributeth merit to works They also t 〈…〉 censure Origen Origen made works the cause of our iustification Brentius in like sort saith that Austin taught assiance in mans merits towards remission of Sinns Luther styleth Ierome Ambrose Austin and others Iustice Workers of the old Papacy D. Whitakers thus wryteth of the age of Cyprian Not only Cyprian but almost all the most holy Fathers of that tyme were in that errour as thinking so to â—ay the payne due to sinne and to satisfy Gods iustice D. Whitguift as afore of praying to Saincts so of merit of works thus confesseth Almost all the Bishopps and Wryters of the greeke Church and Latin also were spotted with doctrine of merit Bullenger confesseth the great antiquity of the doctrine of merit in these words The doctrine of Merit satisfaction and iustification of works did incontinently after the Apostles tyme lay their first foundation To conclude this point M. Wotton no obscure Protestant reiecteth the authority of Ignetius the Apostles scholar touching merit of works in this sort I say plainly this Mans testimony is nothing worth because he was of little iudgment in Diuinity Thus farre touching our Aduersary acknowledgments of the Fathers iudgment herein Now that some learned Protestants do teach and beleiue the doctrine of Merit of Works to be true and Orthodoxall doctrine is no lesse euident then the former point For it is taught as true doctrine by the Publike Confessions in their Harmony by M. Hooker by Melanctâ—on and by Spandeburge the Protestant To the former doctrine of merit of Works I will adioyne the doctryne touching works of Supererogation Which doctrine is greatly exagirated and depraued by many Protestants who are not ashamed to traduce the Catholicks and to diuulge both by penne and in Pulpit that the Catholicks do hould that their works can do more then merit Heauen But this is the Protestant◠〈…〉 lumny since the Catholicks do not hould or beleiue any such thing Therefore I will sette downe the true definition of an Euangelical Counsell distinguished from a Precept seing vpon Euangelicall Counsells works of Supererogation are grounded An Euangelicall Counsell of Perfection is called any good Worke Which is not commanded by Christ but only commended by him and poynted on to vs by hym As the Vowe of Chastity of Pouerty of Obedience and diuers other good Works not commanded by God It differeth from a Precept First because the subiect of a Precept is more facill and easy then that of a Councell Secondly in that a Counsel doth include in it the Performance of a Precept and something more then a Precept Thirdly in that Precepts are common to all Men to performe Counsells are not so Fourthly Precepts of their owne nature do oblige Men to their performance Counsells are in the choyce of one to performe or not performe Lastly Precepts being obserued are rewarded being not obserued the transgression is punished Whereas Counsells being obserued and kept haue a greater reward being not kept no punishment followeth Thus far touching the definition of an Euangelicall Counsell Which in other words may be also thus defined An Euangelical Counsell is any such good Worke of high Perfection to the performance whereof we are not bownd as that we sinne in not doing of it Now whereas it is commonly obiected against the doctrine of Euangelicall Councells That we are so obbliged to God as that we cannot euer do more then we ought to do It is therefore heare to be conceaued that if we consider Gods benefitts bestowed vpon vs we willingly acknowledge that Man can not do more good then he ought no not the thousand part of that he ought to do in that Man cannot render or retaliate any thing of equall valew and worth to Gods benefitts Neuerthelesse Yf we consider the Law and Commande imposed by God vpon vs then man may be sayd to do more then indeede he is obliged by Gods Law to do For although Man cannot exceede or equall Gods benefits with his owne works yet he is not become guilty hearby seing Men is not obliged to performe more then that only which God commaundeth Euangelicall Councells take the cheife and first proufe from sacred Scripture As wheare it is said There are certaine Eunuchs who haue gelded themselfs for the Kyngdome of Heauen Which place is expounded of the Euangelicall Counsell of Chastity by Cyprian Chrysostome Austin and others A second text to omit diuers others for breuity is that where our Sauiour sayth to the yong Man Yf thou wilt be perfect go and sell all that thou hast and giue it to the poore and thou shalt haue treasure in heauen Which text is interpreted of the Euangelicall Counsell of pouerty by S. Ambrose S. Ierome and S Austin The foresayd doctrine is further confirmed by the authority of the auncient Fathers For b 〈…〉 es their expositions of the foresaid places of Scripture this doctrine is further taught by Origen Athanasius Basil Chrysostome Nazianzene Cyprian Ambrose Ierome and finally by Austin who speaking of Precepts and Counsells vseth the very Word Supererogation thus saying of precepts and Counsells Dominus debitum imperat nobis in his autem si quid amplius supererogaueritis in reddendo reddet nobis The doctrine of Euangelicall Councells is warranted and taught besydes by the former auncient fathers of the Primatiue Church euen by diuers learned Protestants According hearto we find it is mantayned for true doctryne by M. Hooker by D. Coâ—ell and by Bucer And thus fâ—r breifly of Iustification by Works of merit of Works and of works of Supererogation The Catholicke Doctrine touching Indulgences THe Viâ—ulency of Protestants against the doctrine of Indulgences is most remarkable Wherefore for their better conceauing of the state of this Question or Indulgences this following in the Catholicke Doctrine First that Mortall sinne is remitted by the Sacrament of Confession so far forth only as concerneth the guilt or offence of God and the punishment of eternall damnation yet so that this eternall punishment by Gods Mercy is turned into temporall punishment as appeareth by the example
Thomas and Dominicus a Soto fully dispute Now heare we are to conceaue that as the bloud of Christ doth clense vs from all sinne if so it be applied to vse by the Sacraments of Baptisme and PeÌ„nance so these Consecrated things and our Lords prayer do apply his bloud for the taking away of veniall sinne from hym who is in state of grace The third end is to dryue away wicked spirits and to cure diseases as appeareth from the prayers by which they are consecrated Neuer the lesse we are heaâ—e to know that these consecrated things do not any worke theese effects as the Sacraments wheare no let is do infallibly work their effects And the reason heare of is because these consecrated things haue not their force from any expresse couenant made by God as the acraments haue but from the Prayers of the Church and denotion of the parties vsing them Besides sometymes it is not conuenient that we should be freed from sicknes or diseases or from the molestation of the Deuills And according hearto we find that the Apostles did vse to annoynt the sicke with oyle and they were cured In like sort Epiphanius relateth how Ioseph by holy water did dissolue incaâ—tation and Magicke And Theodoret recordeth the same of Marcellus Apameensis and Palladius of Macharius Againe S. Ierome testifyeth that S. Hilarion did cure diuers diseased Persons with holy bread and holy oyle The like did S. Bernard S. Gregory witnesseth that one S. Fortunatus did cure one of a brokeÌ„ thigh only by sprinkling holy water vpon it and his owne prayers Finally S. Bernard affirmeth that S. Malachius did cure one that was phâ—anticke by the meanes of Holy Water Now these Examples do show that it is not Negro 〈…〉 cy as the Protestants sometymes do tearme it to seeke to produce with the help of prayers supernaturall effect by applying of holy water or holy oyle That the Church of God hath authority to blesse Creaturs for the former ends and for the furtherance of Denotien is prooued from her greater authority practized in changing the Saboath day from Saturday to Sunday And now it being thus changed is 〈…〉 erable Which point by the confession of learned Protestants was wrought by the sole authority of the Church and is not warranted by any text or passage of Scripture Now thus farre of all these former poynts And heere I am to end aduertizing the Protestant Reader that what is heere set downe contaynes for greater breuity but short discourses of the said controuersyes heere handled and assuring him that scarse the fift part of the prooff and authorities drawne from Gods holy Word from the testimonyes of the Fathers from the practise of Gods Church and from the confession euen of our Aduersaryes are heere alledged which might be produced in warrant of the said Catholicks doctrines And therfore I referre the Reader these be 〈…〉 uen but for some delibation and tast aforehand for his greater satisfaction to the many learned Catholicke Treatiâ—es written vpon the said subiects L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Michaeas What do you reply hereto Are these discourses of your owne framing Againe If they be how can you then free your selfe from that infinite Wrong which you being a stranger offer to our state in seeking thus by supplanting the Ghospell to plant your owne false Religion And lastly what were the Motyues inducing you rather to diuulge these particuler doctrines then diuers others of greater weight and consequence which are still in Question betweene you and vs Belike there was some reason or this your election choyce MICHAEAS My very good Lord. I will answere you to all your demands And herein my Tongue shal be a true Interpreter of my Hart. First concerning the Authour I do heere freely grant I was the Man who penned them who taugh them and who through Gods grace and assistance wil be ready to seale the truth of them if need should so requyre with my bloud Concerning the choyce made of these Controuersyes among many others of as great or greater importance now ventilated betweene the Catholicks and the Protestants Your Lordship may be aduertized that the true reason was because I do find by experience that the common and ignorant Protestant of meaner conceate and whose vnderstanding is vsually immersed in sense seemeth to take more exception at these Catholicke doctrines then at others heere not discoursed off The cause hereof I take to be in that most of these consist in practize and consequently are dayly subiect to the outward sense Whereas those other for the cheife part do lye inspeculation thereby are further remooued from the apprehension of the vnlgar whose vnderstandings herein are commonly like to boysterous Instruments vnportionable and insutable to worke vpon any fine and curions matter For I grant that though they were principally written for fome students of the vniuersity of good talents yet secondarily my intention was the instructing of the vnlearned Protestant in the said Catholicke doctrines That they are heere handled so breifly is in regard of the multiplicity of the Questions each of which if it were at large disputed off would requyre no small Treatise And therefore I haue rather vndertaken to set downe besides some few prooffs of them the true state of euery such Catholicke poynt so to vindicate is from the foule mistaking of the Aduersary then in the fullest manner by authorities to confirme fortify them LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Well touching these two former poynts you haue answered and in part sat sâ—yed me But what say you to the iniury by you wrought not only against the vniuersity but euen against the whole state Which cannot by our owne statâ—ts and Decrees brooke such tumultuous proceedings in any Man much lesse in forayners as to labour to disioynt the beautifull 〈◊〉 me of that Religion which the whole Realme for these many yeares hath so peaceably enioyed MICHAEAS Most Reuerend ludge Giue me leaue without offence to vse the words only al 〈…〉 uely not comparatiuely of that great Apostle who like my selfe was once a Iew but after a Christian Neither against the Law nor against the temple of God nor against Caeser haue I any thing offended It is true And this I confesse with comfort for discomfort is the ordinary attendant of a faulty guiltines that I much labored and to that end cheifly penned these short Discourses to dissem 〈…〉 ate the true faith of these points in the minds of the Schollars of my acquaintance And why might I not Since the valew of an a 〈…〉 yleable fayth is so great as that without it no man with it all men may stand gratefull in Gods eye Sine fide impossibile est placere Deo Consider my L. the price but of one Soule which our Sauiour hath ransomed out of the Deuills hands with so high a reate humiliauit semetipsum factus obediens vsque ad mortem mortem
the word Altar hath euen by the confession of D. Raynolds a necessary and inseparable reference to the words Pryest and Sacrifice as they are taken in their proper and naturall signification since they are Relatiues And seing euery Altar hath a relation to a true and real Sacrifice and to a Pryest as the Word is properly taken and as the said Pryest doth offer vp a true and reall Sacrifice That the Fathers do often mention Altars now to be in the Church of Christ you may M. Vice-Chancelour peruse Austin Chrisostome Optatus Dyonisius Areo pogita and finally the Canons of the Apostles VICE-CHANCELOVR Howsoeuer the Primatiue Fathers may take the word Priest It is not much materiall to vs who heere relye only vpon the pure word of God interpreted to vs by the Holy Ghost yet sure I am that Those Priests who come into England do arrogate vnto themselues a dooble Prerogatiue of which all Antiquity was wholy ignorant The first is in vndertaking to reconcile men to the Pope our states designed enemy And so by this meanes to alienate them in their allegiance from their owne natiue Prince and soueraigne The second in assuming to them power to offer vp in the Masse the body bloud of Christ Which once for all was offered vp for the whole world vpon the Crosse Now both these attempts are deseruedly punished by our Lawes for their acrocityes therein committed And to the daunger decreed against them your selfe Michaeas rests obnoxious seing you being a Priest haue no doubt often practized them both since your arriuall into England MICHAEAS It is wonderfull to obserue how Malice taking the place of Ignorance seeleth vp Mans iudgment for I presume M. Vice-Chancelour You cannot be ignorant of the vntruth of these your assertions Therefore for the better satisfying of you Myreuerend Iudge whom in all reason and duty I am bound to satisfy You are heere to know that what M. Vice-Chancelour calleth reconciling to the Pope is nothing els but an incorporating of one into Christ Church if so afore he was no member thereof by Confession of his sinnes accompanied with a resolution neuer to sinne more to a Catholicke Priest and absolution thereof giuen by the said Priest Or if he were afore a branch of the said Mysticall Body then is this M. Vice-Chancelour reconciling a meere penitent Confession of our sinnes to a Catholicke Priest attended on with an absolution from the said sinnes By force of which Sacrament we ouercome him who is inuincible and restrayne him who is Omnipotent Now heare I demand in all sincerity how these spirituall Actions of a penitent sinner may be reputed preiudiciall to his Loyalty to his Prince Or what necessary reference hath the one to the other Or shall we thinke that in Catholicke CouÌ„tryes for the reason is the same of Catholicks liuing either in Catholicke or Protestante Countries one renounceth his Loyalty to his Prince by recurring to this spirituall physick for the curing of his soules disseases Alas M. Vice-Chancelour I much greiue to see you thus drunke as I may say with malice as to forge such strange and forced interpretations of the Priests and Catholicks proceedings hearein And I pray you how can it be conceaued M. Vice-Chancelour that our propâ—â—quity towards God for such a nearnes is wrought by a true penitent Confession should be presumed to cause a greater distance of our obedience from our Prince and that our state of grace in the sight of God should be censured as a state of Disloyalty in the eye of Man No. The case is mearly contrary to your supposall For since absolute Princes are the Vicegerents of God and in that respect are tearmed Gods Ego dixi dij estis And since we are bound to obey our Prince euen propter conscientiam Therefore we may truly inferre that a fearefull Conscience loath to offend God or through f 〈…〉 ty offending yet willing by the Sacrament of pennance absoluâ—ion to expiate it sinns is euer most ready to performe it d 〈…〉 y 〈…〉 en for feare of Gods displeasure to 〈◊〉 soueraigne And that such Men as want this ten â—ernes of conscience â—â—e loyall subiects so long only as their owne temporall and humane respects do comport with this their loyalty VICE-CHANCELOVR You speake much Michaeas of your Priestly function in absoluing of sinnes confessed But you should prooue if you can since it is most materiall that such Men as were tearmed Priests in the Primatiue Church did heare the confessions of other Mens sinnes and did giue absolution of them so confessed And if you cannot make this good from the Precedents of those firster and purer tymes we must then rest assured that this your assumed authority is but a meere Innouation ingendred betweene the pryde of the Priest taking vpon him Gods person heerein for we read Quis potest dimittere peccata nisi solus Deus Marc. 2. and the scrupulous superstition of the confessed Penitent MICHAEAS It is true that only God originally primatiuely and immediatly remitteth sinne and in this sense the Scripture speaketh of only God remitting of sinne yet is his diuine Maiesty pleased to vse Man as his instrument therein according to those words of our Sauiour to the Apostles Whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen and whosâ— sinnes you shall retayne they are retayned From which passage we further inferre that seing some sinnes are to be retayneâ— and not remitted it followeth inauoydably that we are obliged particularly and distinctly to confesse our sinnes to the Priest For how can the Priest know what sinnes are to be retayned and what sinnes to be remitted except he know which the sinnes be in particular Ad heereto that if God vouchsafest to vse Water a creature much more base then Man as his instrument for the taking away of Originall sinne then much more may Man as his instrument and receauing his authority heerein from the words of Christ and from his Passion which giue force and efficacy to â—ich Sacrament now in the tyme of grace practize without sacriledge the same authority that the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church contrary to your former bold assertion M. Vice-Chancelour did concordantly teach practize our Catholicke doctrine herein is most euident I will not ouerwhelme you with multitude of their testimonyes though all of them are most luxuriant in such their sentences therefore thâ—â—e or foure of them and such as are most auncient shall serue Heere then first I will produce the words of Saint Basill thus wryting Necessario peccata ijs apperiri debent quibus credita est dispensatio mysteriorum Dei si quidem rationem hanc in paeriteâ—â—ia etiam veteres illos â—ernimus secutos fuisse Our sinnes ought of necessity to be reuealed to them to whom is committed the dispensing and distribution of the mysteries of God And thâ—sâ— ou se in Pennance we do find that the
auncient Christians did follow Thus we see that this authority and words of Saint Basill simply a necessity of confession of our sinnes to the Priest and consequently a particular relation of them Saint Leo thus conspireth with Saint Basill Cum reatus conscientiarum sufficiat solis Sacerdotibus iudicari confessione sâ—creta c. Seing it is sufficient that the guiltines of our consciences be made knowne only to Priests in secret confession c. where you may see that confession of sinnes in those dayes was made secret and only vnto Priests Saint Austin thus agreeth with the former Fathers Non solum post paenitentiam c. Not only after Pennance is prescribed a Man ought to keepe himselfe from those vices but also before pennance whiles he is sound who if he should deferre it all his last end Nescit si ipsam pâ—nitentiam accipere Deâ— Sacerdoti peccata sua confiteri poterit He knoweth not whether he shall haue power to receaue his pennance and to confesse his sinnes to God and to a Priest S. Cyprian thus wryteth of this poynt quantò fide maiore timore meliore sunt qui quantumâ—â—uis nullo sacrifiâ—ij aut libelli faciâ—ore constricti quontam tomen de hoc vel cogitauerunt hoc ipsum apud Sacerdotes Dei volenter simpliciter confidentes exomologesni conscientiae faciunt animi pondus expenum salutâ—rem meaelam paruis licet modicis vulneribus exquirunt How much more greater fayth and better feare haue they who though they be not guilty of any cryme touching Sacrifice or giuing vp a Libel yet because they had such a conceate or thought they do with greiffe and simplicity confesse this to Priests c. Thus do they disburden their consciences and seeke to apply a healthfull remedy to their small wounds Now heere by the words Sacrifice and Libel are to be vnderstood sacrifizing to Idolls in the tymes of the Heathen Emperours and giuing vp their names in a booke that they were content to sacrifize To be short Tertullian thus sayth of this custome of confessing our sinnes to a Priest Plerosque hoc opus aut subfugere aut de die in diem differie presumo pudorâ—â— magis memores quam salutis velut illi qui in partibus verecundieribus corporis contracta vaxatione scientiam Medentium vitant ita cum eâ—â—bescentia sua pereunt I do presume that diuers do eyther anoyd this worke meaning of confessine their sinnes or do deferre 〈◊〉 from day to day being more mindfull of their shame then of their health They being heerein like to those Men who hauing some disâ—â—se in their more secret parts of their body do flee the cure of Physitians and so they perish through their owne shame Thus Tertullian from whose testimony is necessarily euicted particular confession of our priuat sinnes euen according to the nature of his similitude heere vsed This point of the auncient Fathers iudgment touching confession of our particular sinnes to a Priest is so deere and manifest that the Centurists discoursing of the vse thereof in those former tymes thus plainly acknowledge Si quis paenitentiam agebant peccatum prius confirebantur ac enim confessionem magnoperè Tertullianus vrget in libro de Pâ—nitentia institutem fuisse priuatam Confessionem qua delicta cogitata praua confessisunt ex aliquot Cypriani locis apparet c. Yf any in those tymes did pennance they did first confesse there sinnâ—e for thus doth Tertullian mightely vrge Confession in his booke de Paenitentia And that priuate Confession was then in vse by the which sinnes euen wicked thoughts were confessed appeareth from certaine places of Cyprian to wit out of his fift sermon de Lapsis lib. 3. Epist epist 14. and 16. Thus farre the Centurists all eminent Protestants who we see do grant that in those tymes euen priuat thoughts much more particular actuâ—ll sinnes were accustomed to be confessed Which Centurists do further witnesse that the Priest did in those tymes absolue the penitent besides by pronouncing the words of Absolution with the Ceremony of imposing her hand a ceremony which at this very day is vsed by the Priests And thus My Honorable Lord and you M. Vice-Chancelour you both may from hence perceaue how neere to the Apostles dayes Confession of particular sinnes euen by the acknowledgment of the Protestants was vsually practized Which point being granted it must by force of all Reâ—son follow that Christ did first institute this Sacrament of Confession and the Apostles did first exercize their authority therein giuen to them by Christ Since otherwise it cannot probably be conceaued that a dogmaticall point of fayth and Religion so crosse and repugnant to Mans nature as Confession is could in so short a tyme inuade the whole Church of God without any contradiction or resistance VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas you haue spoken much in warrant of ConfessioÌ„ and Asolution geuen by the Pryest But the question in regard of your former alledged authorityes is not so much whether Confession of particular sinns was generally taught by those auncient Fathers as whether they had iust reason and warrant so to teach But I will passe no censure of them touching this point But Michaeas what do you say to that assumed authority and priuiledge which you Pryests vendicate to yourselfes in the sacrifice of the Masse Wheare you bease the people in hand that you sacrifize and offer vp the true and naturall body and bloud of Christ to his Father I am assured that the auncient Church of God cannot affoard you any example hereof And the rather since it is manifest that the doctrine of Transubstantiation vpon which your doctrine of sacrifice is grounded was first brought into the Church at the Councell of Lateran by Innocentius the third Which Councell was houlden anno â—215 And therefore it was celebrated many hundred yeres after the Period of the Primatiue Church MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour The sequâ—le will show of what Antiquitie the doctrine is conceâ—ning the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Christ Which is dayly offered vp by the Priest But first I will take away your stumbling block touching the name of Transubstantiation imposed by the Councell of Lateran For the better remouall whereof you are to conceaue that the doctrine of the reâ—ll being of Christs body and bloud in the Sacrament of the 〈◊〉 and Sacrifice of the Masse was taught in all the precedentages though the word Transubstantiation for the better explicating of the doctryne was then and not before inuented Euen as the doctrine of the Trinity was eueâ— in the first infancy of the Church generally beleeued yet the word Trinity was first imposed vpon the doctrine by Councell of Nice But to proceede further touching the Antiquity of the doctryne of the sacrifice of the Masse We first answeare herto that it receaued it first institution and beginning euen from the night before the
Creatour of all flesh did suffer in flesh For our Sauiour being at his last suffer did then first institute it when â—e deliuered to his Apostles his owne body and bloud saying This is my body This is my Bloud c. With reference to which institution the Apostle calleth the table vpon which this sacrifice is made _____ to wit an Altar being deriued of the verb. _____ signifying Sacrifice But let vs see in what dialect Antiquity speaketh hereof Some few places among infinit I will heare select first then we find S Austin thus to say Quid gratius osserriaâ—t sâ—scipi possit quam câ—râ— sacrificij nostri corpus effectum Sacerdotis nostri What can be offered vp or accepted more thankfully then the flesh of our sacrifiâ— being made the body of our Priest Chrysostome thus wryteth Per id tempus Angeli Sacerdoti assident c. At that tyme the Angells draw neare vnto the Pryest and the whole order of the heauenly Powers causeth greate voyces and the place neare vnto the Alâ—â—r is full of qâ—ears of Angells in illius honorem qui inâ—molatur by reason of the honour of hym who is theare 〈…〉 d or offered vp which thing we may fully beleiue vel extanto illi sacrificio quod iunc peragitur in regard of so great a sacrifice then performed Gregory Nyssene Dominus praeoccupans impetum iudeorum c. Our Lord preuenting the violence of the Iewes being both Priest and Lambe made hymselfe a sacrifice But thou demandest of me when this did happen Euen then when he gaue to his disciples his body to eate and his bloud to drink Optatus Miliuitanus thus discourseth Quid est tam sacrilegum quam altaria â—ei in quibus aliquando nos obtulistis frangere radre 〈…〉 e in quïbus vot a Populi membra Christi partata sâ—ni c What is so sacrilegious as to breake or scrape or to remoue and take away the Altâ—â—s of God vpon which your selfs somtymes haue offered in the which the vowes of the People and the members of Christ are borne And further the said Father Quid est altari nisi sides corporis sanguints Christi What is the Altar but the seate of the body and bloud of Christ S. Ambrose Etsi nunc Christus non videatur offerre ipse tamen â—ffertur in terris cum corpus eius offertur And againe Cum Sacrisicamus Christus est presens Christus immolatur When we do sacrifize Christ is present Christ is sacrifized or immolated Ephrem Quid scrutaris inscrutabilia c Why dosâ— thou search into things not to be searched after c. Be thou faythfull and innocent and participate thou of the immaculate body of thy Lord with a most full fayth being assured that thou dost eate the whole Lambe Cyprian Caena disposita inter Sacramentales epuâ—as c. The supper being prepared the auncient and new Institutions did meete together among the Sacramentall 〈◊〉 eats And the Lambe which auncient Tradition did set vpon the table being consâ—med the Maister doth giue to his Disciples an inconsumption meate Tertulian and Dionisius make frequent mention of Altars and consequently of Sacrifice To conclude this passage as auoyding prolexity Eyppolitus Martyr introduceth Christ speaking to Bishops and Pryests in these words Venite Pontifices Sacerdotes qui praeciosum corpus sanguinem meum quoâ—die immolastis Come hither youâ— hâ—â—fe Pryests and other Pryests who haue dayly immoluted and offered vp my precious body and bloud Now M. Vice Chancelour in regard of the perspicâ—ity of thes sentences of the former Fathers and of diuers others such authorityes of the said and other â—athers of the Primatiue Church heare through br 〈…〉 y preteâ—nitted It is the lesse wonder that your owne learned Protestants do ingenuously confesse the truth of those Fathers iudgments hearin For to omit that the Centurists do particularly charge S. Ambrose with this very phraze Massam 〈…〉 ere vsed by vs Pryests at this very day do wee not fine Calumn himselfe thus to acknoledge of them in generall Veteres illos video c. I do see that those auncient Fathers did wrest the memory of the Lords supper otherwyse then was agreeing to the institution of the Lord. Since the Fathers supper did beare the show and resemblance of a renewed Oblation c they imitating more nearely the 〈◊〉 maner of sacrificing then either Christ did ordayne or the nature of the Gospell would suffer And hereupon it is that Caluin in an other place thus chargeth the Fathers The Fathers did adulterate the supper of the Lord by adding of Sacrifice vnto it Neither can theese words of Caluin be restrayned to those Fathers only who liued either in the midest or towards the end of the Primatiue Church First because they are deliuered without exception of the Fathers in generall Secondly by reason that other learned Protestants do charge the Fathers some of them liuing immediatly after the Apostles others 〈…〉 g euen in the dayes of the Apostles with the said doctrine of sacrifice Thus consorting hearto we find Sebastianus Francus an eminent Protestant to vse theese words Statim post Apostolos omnia inuersa sunt c. Presently after the Apostles departure all things were inuerted c. Et caena Domini in sacrificium transfâ—rmata est and the supper of the Lord was changed into a sacrifice But Hospinian that famous Protestant useth higher in tyme thus confessing I am tum primo illo seculo viuentibus adhuc Apostolts c. Even in the very first age the Apostles yet liuing the deuill labored to seduce Men more about this Sacrament meaning touching the â—athers supposed adding of sacrifice to the Sacrament of the Eucharist Then about Baptisme withdrawing Men from the first former thereof Thus farre of the Fathers cleare sentences and of the learned Protestants confessing no lesse touching the doctrine of Sacrifice VICEC-HANCELOVR It lâ—tle preiudizeth vs Michaas who professe the Ghospell though the Fathers did teach the doctrine of the sacrifice of the Masse For seing it is granted both by vs and you Papists that diuers Fathers erred in other paticular poynts why might they not alyke erre in the doctrine of the Sacrifice And seing we are not obliged to embrace their other acknowledged Errours why should we be forced to entertaine this their errour MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour the difference is great and subiect euen to a vulgar iudgment For we grant with you that some particular Fathers did e 〈…〉 certaine poynts yet were those their errours presently condemned and written against by other Ortodoxall Fathers Thus for exemple did Austin Ierome and Epiphanius wryte against Origen teaching that the Deuills were at the last day to be saued against Tertullian denying second Mariadges against Cyprian mantayning Rebaptization Now heare wee grant that such particular Fathers might and did
most Blessed Trinity concerning which he thus speaketh The Diuinity is threefould as the three Persons be c. And from hence the reason may well be why Luther expungeth out of the Litany this verse Holy Trinity one very God haue mercy vpon vs. And hereupon he is not afraid to say that the word Trinity is but an humane inuention and soundeth coldly And finally he concludeth that his soule hateth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale For thus he writeth Anima me a odit Homousion Optimè exigerunt Ariani ne vocem illam prophanam nouam regulis fidei statuâ— liceret My very soule haâ—eth the word Homousion or Consubstantiale And the Arians not without reason required that it should not be lawfull to put this prophane and new Word meaning Homousios or consubstantialis among the rules of fayth Luthers blasphemy against the B. Trinity was such and so odious that euen Zwinglius did purposely write against Luther touching this very point 2. Touching the euent of things Luther houldeth contrary to all Christian faith that all things come to passe through a certaine Stoical and Fatal necessity for he defending this Heresy thus writeth Nullius est in manu c. It is in no mans power to thinke good or euil but al things as Wicleffs article condemned at Constance did rightly teach proceed from absolute Necessity And againe fateor articulum c. I do confesse Wicleffs article of all things comming to passe by Necessi 〈◊〉 to haue 〈◊〉 falsly condemned in the conuenticle of Constance 3. To the dishonour of Christ his Passion who was cloathed with Essentiall Maiesty and as intimating the insufficiency of it for the redemption of mankinde he teacheth that Christ not only suffered in body but also his Diuinity suffered for thus he writeth Cùm credo quod sola humana Natura pro me passa est Christus vilis noc magni praetij saluator est c. If I beleiue that only the Humane Nature of Christ suffered for me then is Christ a Sauiour but of a base and small worth and himselfe nedeth a Sauiour And Luther speaking of this point in an other place thus reprehendeth the Zwinglians The Zwinglians did contend against me most pertinaciously that the Diuinity of Christ could not suffer A doctrine so blasphemous as that it was not refuted only by the Zwinglians in Luthers dayes as himselfe confesseth but also euen by Beza such chaynes you see of blasphemies one stil following an other are wouen in Luthers faith and Religion 4. Touching the Administration of the Word and Sacraments Luther teacheth that al men and women also haue authority power to administer them These be his owne words The first office of a Priest is to preach the Word c. But this is common to al Next to baptize and this also al may do euen women c. The third office is to consecrate bread and wine But this also is common to al no lesse then Priests And this I auouch by the authoritie of Christ himselfe saying do this in remembrance of me This Christ speake to al then present and to come afterwards If then that which is greater then al be giuen indifferently to al Men and Women I meane the word and Baptisme then that which is lesse I meane to consecrate the supper is also giuen to them Thus Luther Yea Luther proceeded so farre herein as that as D. Couell witnesseth he was not afraid to affirme that the Sacraments were effectual though administred by Satan himselfe With D. Couell agreeth the Protestant Hospintan thus writing Lutherus â—o vsque progreditur c. Luther proceedeth so farre herein that he maintained the Sacrament to be a true Sacrament â—â—iamsi a Diabolo conficeretur though it were to be consecrated by the Deuil 5. For absolute deniall of tempor all Magistrats an Heresy indifferently condemned both by Catholicks and Protestants we finde Luther thus to write Among Christians no man can or ought to be a Magistrate But euery one is to other equally subiect c. And agayne As Christ cannot suffer himselfe to be tyed bound by lawes c. So also ought not the Conscience of a Christian to suffer them 6. Touching Luthers deniall of certayne parcels of Scripture And first the Epistle of S. Iames is called by Luther Contentious swelling strawy and vnworthy an Apostolicall spirit The booke of the Apocalyps is also reiected by Luther by the acknowledgment of Bullenger thus writing hereof Doctour Martin Luther hah as it were sticked this booke with a sharpe preface set before his first Edition in Duch for which his iudgment good and learned Men were offended with him Hereunto I will adde Luthers contempt of Moyses and some of the Apostles Against Moyses he thus writeth Habuit Moyses labia in faecunda irata c. And againe Moyses habuit labia diffusa felle ira Touching the Apostles he thus controuleth S. Peter S. Peter did liue and teach extra verbum Dei besides the word of God Thus we may see how no wynde was able to weigh downe the eares of Luthers pryde 7. Luther also taught an Heresy whereby the Propagation of Christian Religion is much endangered to wit That it was not lawfall to wage warre against the Turke an errour which enen the greatest Idolatours of Luther haue mainly condemned Luthers words are these Praeliari contra Turcas est repugnare Deo visitanti iniquitates nostras per illos To wage warre against the Turke is to resist God visiting our sinnâ—s by theÌ„ A point so confessed that Erasmus thus writeth of the consequence and effects of Luthers doctrine Many of the Saxons following herein that firct doctrine of Luther denyed to Caesar and King Ferdinand ayde against the Turke c. And said they had rather fight for a Turke not Baptized then for a Turke Baptized meaninge the Emperour Thus Erasmus 8. Touching Fayth and good workes Luther taught an Heresy disallowed by all learned Protestants For Luther teacheth as followeth It is impiety to affirme that fayth without Charity iustifyeth not Nay Luther proceedeth further thus writing Fides nisi sit sine c. Except fayth be without the least good works it doth not iustify nay it is not fayth And thereupon the more to debase good works he thus saith Works take their goodnes of the Worker Aud no worke is disallowed of God vnlesse the authour thereof be disallowed before Here now I end touching Luther Where you may perceaue Neuserus that this your Sunne of which you afore vaunted prooues to be but a fading Comet the fyery zeale you spoake of but a turbulent combustion seâ— on flame by Luther in subiects minds against all Christian Magistracy and the reflux which Luther as you pretend caused in the Church of Rome was instantly attended on with a flux and
I will drawe the preachers to embrace my doctryne will procure priuate correspondency with some Turkish Pryests will labour with all diligence to spreade the Turkish Religion in Germany and finally will go to Constantinople and there I wil be Circumcized D. REYNOLDS O God vnto what miserable and strange tymes hast thou reserued me to se Christ thus abandoned by Christians and embraced by Iewes And what horrid and dreadfull resolutions are these comming from our owne bosome aduersaries Alas Ochinus and Neuserus thinke what schandall it wil be to the Gospell when it shal be truly rumored that such men as your selfs are Enemyes of the Gospell And what will many graue Protestants and particulary the most learned Beza speake of you for this your most infamous reuolt sweet Iesus that â—ewes and Heathens should fynd light in darknes and Christians darknes in light You both say you will not acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the true Church of God Be it so Yet are the Professours of it Christians And will you therefore abandon Christ Iesus out of your malignity to them ô no. A bad Christian is better then no Christian as a dime sight is better then to be stone blynd You demande how can the Church of Christ be the true Church when the Predictions of the Prophetts touching it are not performed in it Who knoweth they are not performed in it Yf you aske by whome were they performed Where and at what tymes Remember that these are but Circumstances of the busines and it is a receaued Axiome that Aliquando constat dere quando non constat de modorei And how all these things may be reconciled is a Mystery sealed vp perhapps by God from our knowledge for our greater Humiliâ—ie But to come to an end Seeing you both are so obstinately headlong as if you were weary or ashamed of the Christian fayth to embrace Iudaisme I cannot but say that I do much prefer Michaeas before you both for a Iew being made a Christian is much more noble then a Christian who intende to be a Iew and I do from henceforth forbid all entercours and as sotiation with you Therefore fare you well Both only for this foule misnap of yours I can but euaporate my greife out into sights and weepe because in neither of you I can see teares of remorse OCHINVS Wee thanke you M. D. for your freindly admonitions though they haue no working influence ouer vs. And where you vrge that ProtestaÌ„ts will speake fowly of this my change I answeare let any of them or Beza himselfe in whom you peculiarly insist shower downe reproches vpon me as that I am a secret fauorer of the Arians that I am a defendour of Polygamy that I am a derider of all articles of Christian Religion Yea let hym playnly and bluntly style me an impure Apostata All this sweighs nothing with me for I do glory to suffer opprobry and disgrace in defence of the auncient Iewish Religion But come Neuserus let vs begonne And thus M. D. I leaue you and commit you to the tuition of the Highest NEVSERVS Farewell good M. Doctour and the Lord of Heauen illuminate the eyes of all those who remayne yet blinded D. REYNOLDS Gentillmen once more I leaue you to God Who at his pleasure is able to mollify the most stonye haâ—t FINIS GOD SAVE THE KING THE CONCLVSION HEARE now Worthy Academicks is my penne come to it full stop and our seconde Dialogue to it last Period Where you haue seene the true and vnfeigned downe fall of the two former Protestants Ochinus and Neuserus and the stumbling block occasioning this their miserable precipitation Yf any of you do reape profit hereby and I hope you may if you vouchsafe to peruse it with Indâ—sterency ô how fully then is my labour recompensed As for those who out of an affected morosity do detractiuely preiudge of our labours in this kind and through their owne inueterate auersioÌ„ to the Catholicke faith do betrample with all scorne and indignation our best endeuours though I hope few or no such spydars do breede in your Colledges I pryze not their Censures only I do and still will pray incessantly to God to giue them more supple and docible harts with whom wee may perhapps truly expostulate in the Psalmists phraza Filij hominum vsque quo graut corde Peruse learned Men the authorityes and reasons here aboue alledged and deuyde in your iudgments what is here seigned by way of interlocution from that in which I really and forcebly insist and then make in the secrets of your soules a reflection vpon your owne Religion And that you may more warrantably proceede therein I will here proue though but breifly the visibility of our Catholycke Church during all those ages in which your Protestant Church is aboue acknowledged to lye latent or rather not to be at all a poynt if you remember of which Michaeas promised to leaue behynd him some proufs 1. This then I proue seuerall wayes And first from the Inuisibility of the Protestant Church during all former ages till Luthers insurrection if so we take Luther for a Protestant For seeing euer since the Apostles dayes there hath bene a visible Church of Christ in the World as all Ecclesiasticall Historyes Chronicles and Antiquityes do irrefragably conuince And seing that by the Confessions of all sydes there hath beene no other Church of Christians visibly in being all these tymes but either the Catholycke Church or the Protestant Church For as for the Arians and other Heretycks they continued only for certaine ages And lastly seeing it is acknowledged aboue by so many learned Protestants and otherwyse also proued by many vnanswerable arguments that the Protestant Church hath not beene visible for so many ages till Luthers appearing Therefore it inauoydably followeth that the Catholycke Church is that Church which hath euer bene visible and knowne to the World during all that long space of tyme And the rather seeing the learned Protestants confese as aboue is shewed that all the former Inuisibility of the Protestant Church was wrought by the labour power diligence of the Catholicke Roman Chuch now how could the Roman Church effect so much for so long a tyme except it selfe during al that tyme were most visible 2. Secondly I proue the same poynt from the acknowledged succession of Pastours in our Catholycke Church euer since the Apostles Which euer visible succession of Pastours necessarily includeth in it selfe the euer visibility of the Catholycke Church those visible Pastours being the visible and most eminent members of the said Church and preaching and instructing others who euen in this respect must become also visible and knowne Now that the Catholicke Roman Church hath ever enioyed this visible sucession of Pastours is confirmed from the wrytings of the Centurists in their seuerall Centuryes their relating of which poynt being a Principall part and subiect of that their so much commended