Selected quad for the lemma: doctrine_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
doctrine_n	church_n	england_n	reformation_n	4,105	5	9.0185	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A04537	An answer to Maister H. Iacob his defence of the churches and minstery of England. By Francis Iohnson an exile of Iesus Christ	Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624. Defence of the churches and ministery of Englande.	1600 (1600)	STC 14658; ESTC S121679	284,840	262

AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministery of England By Francis Iohnson an exile of IESVS CHRIST Though myne Adversary write a Book against me would I not beare it vpon my shoulder would I not bynde it for crovvnes vnto me Iob. 31.35.36 Printed in the Yeare of our Lord. 1600. The Title and inscription of Mr Iacobs book because there is often relation vnto it hereafter both in the Preface and in the Book it selff therefore I thought good here to insert it at first Thus it was word for word as followeth A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND Ministery of England Written in two Treatises against the Reasons and obiections of Mr Francis Iohnson and others of the separation commonly called Brownists Published especially for the benefit of those in these parts of the lovv Countries MIDDELBVRGH By Richard Schilders Printer to the States of Zealand 1599. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from our Lord Iesus Christ THere came out of late good Reader two books from one Mayster Henry Iacob a Priest of the Orders of the Prelates The first was agaynst his Lord Mr D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester concerning Christs suffrings and descending into Hell The latter agaynst me by name and others like mynded tovvching the Church and Ministery of England Now although the Prelates could not well be offended at him for publishing the former agaynst the doctrine of theyr Church senig * In K. Edvv tyme about 50. Yeares synce long before him Mr Carlill a learned man had both publikly disputed in Cambridge and printed a book agaynst that error of Christs descension and that with great approbation of the most godly and learned at that tyme Yet belike fearing the worst and knowing the hatred of the Prelates how deadly it is he did presently after send forth his other book in defence of the Churches and Ministery of England So as whatsoever displeasure his Lords the Prelates conceyved agaynst him for the former there was now some hope that they might sooner be appeased vpon view of the latter Or howsoever it should fall out yet what like lyer way could he take to make all sure on his side then by the first book to get the forward Preachers and professors to take his part agaynst the Prelates and by the other to have both them and the Prelates themselves to stand with him agaynst vs Yet I heare some of his owne coat give out that he hath dealt very simply in publishing so weak and raw a Treatise against vs. And true it is in deed that his Treatise is such In the publishing whereof no wisedome hath he shewed at all vnles it be in this that he hath thus let all the world see that against the errors of the Church of England there is plenty of Scripture to be had and vrged but not a jote to be found for defence of theyr VVorship Ministery constitution c. For if you mynd it † Yet I deny not but he hath scattered some errors also in that book in his book against Bilson about the question of Christs suffrings and descending into Hell you shall see proof after proof readily brought from the word of God And on the contrary in his book against vs not onely no such proof but in stead thereof eyther his owne assertions and comparisons obtruded vnto vs as oracles or the Names of Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley and other dead men opposed to the word of the living God or putting over his cause to the State to be defended himself being not able to speak one poore word in defence thereof c. Such is his latter book and such are the grounds of it A very great and straunge difference between two books set out by one and the same man the one straight after the other and both of them in matter of Religion If I had first published these Replyes and Aunswers which passed between vs no doubt but many would have had a prejudice thereof and all would have thought I had done it purposely to shew the weaknes of that cause and falsehood of that Ministery c. But now when he a member of that Church yea a Minister of it even a Priest of the Prelates creation hath first published them albeit the same thing be done yet it is both without all prejudice and pretended by him for defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Be it that he hath not done it so well as many would have it yet it is the best he could And what if he thought by this meanes eyther to stirre vp some others more able herevnto or at least to shew his owne good will Doubtles where there is want of ability a mans good will is to be accepted And why should any then misinterpret so good a meaning If any of the Prelates or others of that Church like it not they may learne by his example iff not to lay theyr hand on theyr mouth yet to try if they can plead the cause any better For worse I suppose they would be ashamed to do it I had thought in this case I should never have seen any more absurd writing then Mr Giffards and Bredvvels But now to Mr Iacob may they well give place And iff any can be found of all the Priests in England more sencelesse then these let such for theyr worthynes as standerd bearers be Prelates of theyr chiefest Seas And as for Mr Iacob seing he hath done his best let all men be content to beare with his simplicity who otherwise might well note his folly for vndertaking ius how the defence of that which yet in deed he leaveth altogether naked and helples By the title of his book it seemeth he thought to carry away the simple Reader who eyther could not or would not mynd what should follow after it In the book it self he thinketh his plea to be very good if he can say for the Ministery and other abominations of theyr Church They are errors but not fundamentall sinnes against the Second commandement but not vtterly abolishing from Christ c. And this is the summe of his whole book A plea which he counteth vnaunswerable Yet in deed no other but such as openeth a wide doore for all maner errors and sinnes to be receyved and nourished amonge them which themselves shall presume not to be fundamentall c. So that now theyr Church is ready when they please to entertayne agayne the offices of Abbats Monks Fryers Nonnes Cardinals c. the doctrines and practise of Auricular confession Prayer in an vnknovven toungue Prayer for the dead Seven Sacraments Holy vvater holy ashes holy palmes holy bread Creame spittle oyle and salt in Baptisme Consubstantiation Deniall of the cup to the lay people Denyall off vvarres and Magistracy in Christians Denyall of Mariage in Ministers c. For these and many mo errors of the Papists Lutherans Anabaptists it is like they hold not to be fundamentall And therefore

further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that bel●eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Pen●y cōfessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith † Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos

3.12.15 amōgst many other which plainly proveth Ansvver that many errors so they be not of obstinacy may be built by a Christian vpon the fundation Christ Iesus yet be a true Christian still For which see further Maister Iacobs answer in pag. 192. Againe there are errors simply fundamētall which of their owne nature cleane abolish frō Christ such are the errors of the Arians concerning the Deitie of Christ of the Anabaptists concerning his humanitie of the Papists cōcerning Iustification by workes praying to trusting in Saincts and such like which directly raze the very foundation But that any one or all of the errors in the churches of Englād are of this force as you would seem to hold by all your 9. Reasons is most impious and vngodly to affirme And as Maister Iacob very well noteth in his answer to every one of them You therby overthrow the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes from being christians who held the very same corruptions in their ministery worship c. which is now held in England But say you the Martyrs saw ne further Then you confesse against your selves that our errors doe not simply abolish from Christ as you every where affirme most vngodly especially in defence of your 7. Reason But that if men in these things see no further they are in the same estate with the Martyrs Now if you would have your Reasons hold you must prove the churches of England all conuicted in conscience which I hope you will not go about to doe Thus much concerning the nature of our errors whether they be of obstinacie or against the fundation directly which is the Second note I desier to be observed The Aunswer This second note of his is as foolish as frivolous as contumelions as the former See it here in his chaunging of the question between vs in his lessening of theyr corruptions in his mismatching of things vnequall in his abusing our difference of judgement and reviling off vs in his perverting the Scriptures and example of the Martyrs c. The Question between vs is not as he pretendeth but thus First concerning them VVhether the good doctrines of the Church of England being joyned together vvith theyr Antichristian errors and corruptions do make theyr Assemblyes and people in that estate to be true Churches and Christians Then concerning vs VVhether notvvithstanding the good doctrines professed in theyr Church vve may and ought to separate from theyr Antichristian Ministery vvorship confusion c. That thus the question standeth between vs themselves cannot deny though they seek to alter and turne from it here and every where Therefore do we also desier thee good Reader to mynd it well and not to be carryed away with the view of theyr good doctrines alone from the question and matter in hand but alway to have an especiall regard therevnto Notwithstanding if the question were as here he pretendeth perthen both his owne and all Mr Iacobs defence of the Church of England is even thus also quite ouerthrowen For now it appeareth that both of them do vnderstand theyr Argument following as if it were thus propounded Whatsoever is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church Mr Iacobs Argument as it is novv vnderstood by themselves notwithstanding the multitude of errors and corruptions retayned among them But the whole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of salvation viz. such a one as in simplicity of heart beleveth and embraceth it And the publik Assemblyes of England are in theyr estate companyes so gathered together that is they do in simplicity of heart so beleev and embrace Therefore it is sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches notwithstanding the multitude of theyr errors and corruptions The Argument then being thus propounded as by this note of his it must needs be marke I pray you what followeth herevpon 1. That as it hath ben propounded hitherto it concludeth not the Question but is lame both in the Proposition and Assumption as I have noted more particularly hereafter Pag. 4. 10. 12. 13. 93. 97. 99. 106. 2. That in theyr estate we must mynd not theyr good doctrines alone but theyr errors and corruptions withall Of which there is never a word in all theyr Argument See it Pag. 3 4. 63. 171. 172. 3. That the falsehood both of the Proposition and Assumption is now so manifest as the very propounding of them thus is sufficient to refute them But for this also see further Pag. 5. 11. 12. 13. Now to speak here but of the latter braunch of the Assumption onely let them tell vs iff themselues think theyr Assemblyes and members thereof do in simplicity of heart beleev and practise the good doctrines of theyr Church Nay will they say that the Prelates the chief officers and pillars of theyr Church do so embrace them Not to speak of the many thousands of theyr Church who do not so much as know the doctrines of truth retayned and 〈◊〉 them So far are they from professing and practising them in syncerity And yet are they aswell as the best members of theyr Church partakers of theyr Sacraments Ministers Governours copartners of theyr Worship Assemblyes procedings c. 4. Finally mynd that the Argument and Replyes following speak of the profession and practise of all theyr Assemblyes and members thereof as they stand according to Law Pag. 3.6 But here he speaketh onely of such among them as do in simplicity of heart beleev and embrace theyr good doctrines and therefore neyther of all theyr Assemblyes nor of all the members of them See then here how insufficiently they have reasoned and how deceitfully they have dealt all this while Besides the question being of a visible Church he speaketh onely of such as may belong to the invisible Which is not to the poynt in controversy For the profession and practise according to Law spoken of in the Argument may be knowen and discerned of men the simplicity of the heart here spoken of God onely kooweth Thus with wynding in and out they have lost both the question and themselves too I feare if they returne not in tyme and with simplicity of heart vnto the Lord. The nature and force of theyr corruptions derived from Antichrist the deadly enemy of Iesus Christ is purposely handled in the discourse following in the 1. 2. 3. 6. 7. and 9. Reasons The Apostle saith that even * 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 the forbidding of Meats and Mariage is a departing from the faith Mr Beza speaking particularly of the Church of England and but of fower or five off theyr corruptions viz plurality of benefices licences of Non-residency licences to marry and to eat flesh saith that ‡ Bez. Epist 8 the Antichristian Church hath not

of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by † † 2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous

false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh

were true Churches when they fell into those errors as were the Churches of Galatia when the errors about Circumcision and the Law crept in among them Or whether they were Hereticks Sectaryes or the like such as were Hymeneus Philetus Alexander the Apostates of Rome c. falling from the true faith and Churches of God when they came to be gathered and established as he fancyeth If they were of the former sort then they are to be estemed and admonished as true Churches till by despising the voyce of Christ the Kingdome of God be taken from among them Gal. 1.2 vvith 5.2.4 Mat. 21.33.43 1 Cor. 1.2 vvith 15.12 Rev 2. 3. chap. If of the latter then are they no true Churches at all but false and detestable Synagogues of Sathan whatsoever truth in constitution or otherwise they shall pretend Rev. 2.9 Act. 20.30 Col. 2.8.23 2 Thes 2.3.7 1 Tim. 1.19.20 6.20.21 and 2 Tim. 2.17.18 and 3.5.6.13 and. 4.14 Heb. 10.38.39 2 Pet. 2.1.2.3 In de ver 18.19 Rev. 13.11 17. 18 chap. 3. In a true constitution must alway be mynded a calling by the word of God a separation from the world a joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell and that by a voluntary profession thereof and submission therevnto Now these things considered how is it posible that the Arrians Anabaptists or Papists retayning theyr errours should yet be gathered and established in a true outward constitution Can the light of truth have communion with the darkenes of falsehood Or can Christ in his constitution agree with Belial in the errours of Arians Anabaptists Papists c. 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 4. Finally if he will not heare our aunswer nor the Scriptures testimony let him ye● heare Mr Iewell a Prelate of theyr Church resolve his question in this maner * Ievvels Reply to Harding Pag 99 VVithout Christ the Church is no Church neyther hath any right or clayme vvithout his promise no● any promise vvithout his vvord Now this D. B. affirmeth himself that these of whom he speaketh are vvithout Christ For he sayth † Before in Sect. 3. theyr errors do of theyr ovvne nature cleane abolish from Christ Therefore by his owne assertion and Mr Iewels layd together they can be n●●eue Church whatsoever faith or constitution they should pretend neyther have they an● right in such estate to his blessing Which yet is promised to them that are in the true wa● and constitution of Christ Mat. 28.20 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Lev. 26.11.12 Thus then appeareth that he doth both ignorantly fever the doctrine wholy from the Churches constitution and that yet when they are considered apart as some tymes and ● some respects they may be each of them that is both the doctrine and constitution according as they are true or false avayle directly to the ouerthrowing or making of the Church to be likewise true or false so as hath ben declared before His crafty putting of faulty here for fal● will nothing help him but bewrayeth his corrupt dealing the more Els let him shew in his next if he can whether ever there were true Church that stood in false constitution Neyther is the obiection of the Iewish constitution answered at all but remayneth of force against them still And that so much the more as the Churches of England remayne both in fal● constitution and in false doctrine for both which they are vnder the wrath of God and all ●ound to separate from them And whosoever will not so do it remayneth a grievous sinne vpon theyr heads for which they must answer to God in that day when he will cast the Beast and false Prophet with all such as have ben seduced by them into vtter destruction to have their part in the lake which burneth with fyer and brimstone which is the second death 2 Thes ● 10.11.12 Rev. 14.9.10.11 17.1.2 19.20.21 21.8 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 7. Lastly concerning our corruptions As we cannot iustifie them to be no corruptiōs but must needes acknowledge that there are many yet remaining in our land which vvere left by that man of sinne are as thornes vnto our sides vvhich vve hope God will in time abolish Iudg. 2.3 So dare vve not runne into your extremities to condempne our Churches for such corruptions but waight the appointed time of God for the redresse thereof Yet in the meane time so longe as those most excellent truthes and doctrines of salvation for which God make vs thankfull are still reteyned and held as soundly as by any Church vpon the face of the earth the other errors not simply ouerthrovving the same beeing not held of obstinacy and being also for the most part of great controversie and disputation among the learned So long I say communion in things lavvfull is to be kept with them as before is noted in the example of other Churches Othervvise it vvill come to passe by reason of the * * Mat. 25.13 10.23 dieuersitie in opinions and iudgementes vvhich by the corruption of our nature vve remaine in in this tabernacle as hath ‡ ‡ Lev. 4. Psal 19.12 bene in all ages and * * 1 Cor. 13.9 12. shal be so long as this life of imperfection indureth that no communion can euer bee had vvith any Church liuing no nor any one Christian vvith another Which to affirme vvere most absurd and vngodly These observations beeing considered I doubt not but the Lorde vvill adde a blessing to this vvorke That such as are simple hearted and have exceeded in eagernesse of zeale may see theyr extremitie in so rashly and vnadvisedly separating from and condempning the Churches of England sometymes theyr Nurses and Mothers as before is noted Whereby God may have the glory themselves the comforte euen the salvation of theyr soules through Christ D. B. The Aunswer Now at length D. B. yeeldeth the cause himself So great is the truth and so greatly it prevayleth against every oppugner thereof To omit that he confesseth they cannot justify theyr corruptions and yet they can abide in them he sayth also they must needs acknovvledge that they have many corruptions remayning vvich vvere left by that man of sinne vvhich are as thornes vnto theyr sides Blessed be God which maketh the enemyes themselues bring glory and testimony to his truth They are so convinced as he sayth plainely they must needs acknovvledge it Now therefore let him name them in his next or confesse those to be of them which I have noted hereafter Pag. 63. c. Till then I will onely inferre this herevppon that seing they are such as himself here graunteth them to be viz corruptions of the Man of sinne and thornes to theyr sides even therefore are all bound to separate from them as being condenmed by the word of God For hath not the Lord commaunded all his people wholy to leave the Man of sinne with all his corruptions not to partake in any of his

he vvould proue the Churches of England to be the true Churches of God VVhatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian in state of saluation That is sufficien● to make a companie so gathered together to be a true Church But the whole doctrine as it is publikly ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. professed and practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation † † See for the addition of these vvords in Pag. 6. and our publique Assemblies are therein gathered together Therefore it is sufficiēt to make the publique Assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson THe aunswer of this Argumēt followeth But first I wil proposid another prouing by better reason that the Church-assemblies of England are in their constitution so far from being true Churches of God as they stand in Antichristiā estate and are therfore subiect to wrath The ARGVMENT is this Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered togeather likewise to stand though they professe withall in their constitution many doctrines of truth otherwise profitable to saluation But the Hierarchie Leiturgie and confusion ecclesiasticall as they are publikly ‡ Their Ecclesiasticall constitutiō Courts Iniunctions practise canon Lavve Books of articles of cōmon prayer of ordering Priestes and consecrating Archbishops c. professed practised by law in England are sufficient to make a † As for exāple the Prelates the Priessts c. particular man stand in Antichristian estate and in that respect to be subiect to wrath And the Church-assemblies in England are in ‡ their estate companies so gathered together Therefore are these also sufficient to make the Church-assemblies of England likewise to stand though they professe vvithall in their constitution many doctrines of truth othervvise profitable to saluation This Argument I propound as being more sound then M. Iacobs both for matter and maner Let others iudge Now I come to examine his Where first it is needfull so to set it downe as it was heretofore propounded by himself And that was thus as followeth Chap. 3. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it vvas first propounded and aunswered VVHatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christiā in state of saluatiō That is sufficient to make a company so gathered togeather to be a true Church But the whole doctrine ‡ ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1562. as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Therefore it is sufficient to make the publique assemblies true Churches H. Iacob Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer TO omit the Proposition vntill it better appeare by the defence of the Assumption how to take and vnderstand it we wil for the present only shew the weakenes of the Assumptiō And this also the rather because they seeme wholy to depend vpon it H. Iacob his Reply THe Aūsvverer omitteth the Propositiō for in deed it is most certain But he denieth the Assumption vvhich yet is as certaine also That the doctrine in our booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian Fr. Iohnson his 2. Aunsvver IN the former aunswer I omitted the Propositiō not because of the certeinty of it as the Replier dreameth but till we might see by his defence of the Assumption how to take it as then I noted Now therefore hauing seen in his reply the * This I vvrot vvhen I had seen Mr. Iacobs first Rep●e herafter follovving vvhich novv he hath secōded vvith another of like sort VVhether it be not so as here I say let the indifferent Reader vpon tryall iudge vnlearned and vnconscionable pretences by which he would seem to defend the Assumption whē in deed he doth nothing else but cast a mist before the eyes of the simple I giue him to vnderstand that the whole Argument is lame and faulty in euery part The Proposition is not absolutely true as now by his defence of the Assumption it appeareth he vnderstandeth it The Assumption is not only false as was proued in the * My first aūsvver vvas the 3. Exceptiōs and 9. Reasons vvhich here do follovv former aūswer but also lacketh a foot whereon it should goe if it were perfect and entire For whereas in the Proposition mention is made not only of the making of a true Christian but also of a companie so gathered togeather he should in the Assumptiō if he would haue had it sound and perfect not only haue assumed that the doctrine c. is sufficient to make a true Christian but haue added also that their assemblies be companies so gathered together Which being not done both the Assumption wāteth one of the feet and the Conclusion inferreth more then was in the premisses and so the whole Syllogisme is faultie and disfigured Thus might we without any further aunswer returne this Argumēt to the first framers of it to be better fashioned Yet in hope to doe them good by the blessing of God we will more particularly lay open the weakenes of this Replie And first where he saith the Proposition is most certain and yet in his defence of the Assumption declareth that he so taketh it as whatsoeuer amongst them be ioyntly togeather held and ioyned with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures we aunswer that in this sence the Proposition neither is nor can be absolutly true For who knoweth not that ‡ Gal. 5.2.4 such things may be ioined with Christ as do abolish from him And again † 2 cor 6.14.15.16.17 that Christ Antichrist cannot accord together Either therefore the Proposition is not general but admitteth limitatiō and thē is not the Argumēt good Or if it be generall without any limitation so as whatsoeuer be added to or commingled with that which otherwise might make a true Christiā or Church yet it hindereth nothing at all then is it not alway true as may appeare by the former exceptions and many mo that might be alledged Next touching the Assumption besides that it is same it is also vntrue as hath ben proued Some balme in deed this man bringeth to cure it but it hath no other effect saue only to manifest so much the more that the soare of their Assemblies cannot be healed In our former aunswer we first tooke 3. Exceptions against thē comparing together their profession and practise then we alleadged 9. Reasōs directly concluding the falshood of the Assumption H. Iacob his 2. Reply Before I examine this your aunswer I will desire you and all others to note that all your Ecceptions and Reasons with your defence of them hereafter following doe consist of these

His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and

whither you refer vs for it though there the Reader shall finde you aunswer not the severall Scriptures here alledged for proof of it In the meane time let this be noted that here againe you graunt your Church corruptions are against the Second commaundement Therefore may none that feare God and will be assured to escape his wrath bow downe vnto them Exod. 20.5.6 Deut. 5.9.10 and 6.10.11 and 28.15.16 c. Psal 106.29 Next where I speak of your breach of the second cōmaundement as being spirituall whoredome you except against it as if I mismatched things otherwise then they are in deed But how can that be seing the Scriptures ‡ Pag. 68. there alledged prove that which I said Or will you say your case is not spirituall whoredome which God in that commaundement hath straitlie forbidden and severelie threatned to punish This then being so it is your self Mr Iacob that mismatch things otherwise then in deed they are For your case is not as you would pretend by your similitude like a wanton word a light gesture or contenaunce or an immodest thought of a woman But I will tell you what it is like Even as when a woman vnfaithfull to her husband is found to commit filthynes with other men after whom she goeth a whoring Now such a one whatsoever smooth speach countenance or excuse she pretend yet is in deed an whore and for this cause to be divorced That your case is such your going a whoring after Antichrist whose ordinances Hierarchie worship confusion c. are retained among you testifies to your faces Fitly therefore do we applie the Scriptures against you and your selves it is that sinne against the Third commaundement in misapplying of them as I shewed sufficientlie in my former answer against which you can say nothing To the proof of the Assumption you yeeld now at length Neither can I otherwise thinke of your aunswer seing I have proved my speach to be proper and the Scriptures fitly alledged and you refuse to iustify your owne Articles and estate Yet least you should againe cavill and delude the Reader I aske you Have I not concluded the question in a Syllogisme Why then do you not aunswer directlie to some part of it Have I not proved the Proposition by Scripture and the Assumption by your owne Writings and practise The Conclusion then must needs be true vnles one of the Propositions could be disproved which you are so far from as you never go about to do it The marginall note then is no scoffe but a iust reproof of your ignorance which in deed deserveth much more But I spare you and leave it to others to iudge whether you do any thing els in all you say but winde in and out to hide the truth and blinde the Reader if you could The Scriptures which I alledged for proof of the Proposition you handle as if I had brought them for proof of the Assumption Who is it now think you that is in a dreame Agayne your owne Books profession and practise by which I proved the Assumption you towch not at all Nay you say plainely it is no part of your mynd to iustify them Whether it be for that you see they can not possibly be iustifyed or because you want skill in your self or charity towards your Church for the doing of it let others inquire Sure I am that thus you give the cause For this belongs directly vnto it as all may see that have any vnderstanding and your self I suppose will not deny when you have called your wits a litle better togeather Chap. 8. The second Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THat which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine that cannot make either true Christians or true Churches But the doctrine publikely professed and practized by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God in vaine Therefore c. Of the trueth of the Proposition none can doubt And the Assumption is thus proved That which appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God by the precepts of Man that appointeth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine This Christ affirmeth out of Esay the Prophet Mat. 15.9 with Esay 29.13 But the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in Englād appointeth and ratifieth the worshipping of God by the precepts of man This appeareth by the 35. and 36. Articles of the book alledged and by their other books of Articles Canons Iniunctions Common prayer their Holy dayes Fasting dayes Censures Hierarchy c. All which are the precepts of men and authorised by Law in England Therefore the doctrine publiquely professed and practized by law in England appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine And consequently cannot make a particuler man a true Christian nor the assemblies so gathered together true Churches H. IACOB his 1. Replie to the 2. Reason THis your Second Reason is This booke and others appoincteth and ratifyeth the worshipping of God in vaine Ergo c. 1. This also hath answere in the third Exception Pag 57. 2. Also note I pray you this Scripture Mat. 15. is verified of such as were then of the true visible ♣ Marke his open contrariety with hīself granting this in Reas 6 Church with vvhom Christ and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometimes ioyne and communicate This therefore maketh for vs and against you most notably FR. Io. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 2. Reason THe Reason is as you see it propounded before N●w what propositiō do you deny Not any at all What defence then bring you of your book of Common prayer and the particulars therein of your books of Articles and Iniunctions of your Prelacy and other Ministery receyved frō then according to your popish Pontificall of your Canons and Excommunications c. Surely none neyther What then do you answer Not a word but that you refer vs to your answer before in the last Exception whither also we refer the Reader with this note that there he shall finde nothing either for answer of any proposition of this argument or for defence of your worship Prelacy Ministery and Church gouernement called into question Is not this then a worthie and Clerck like answer Have you not may we thinke good proof for your present estate and Church-constitution which thus leave it altogeather without defence even when it most needeth and as it were beggeth your help and succor if you could affoard it any Yet now having no aunswer to any part of the Argument you bid vs note that this Scripture Mat. 15. here alledged is verifyed of such as were then of the true visible Church with whom Christ himself and his Apostles both in Christs tyme and after his death did sometyme ioine and communicate This therefore you say maketh for you and against vs most notably 1 But first tell vs if ‡ As that of Lev. 10.1.2.3 Num. 16 1.

a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves † M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould

seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ● First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it

First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold Cōmuniō with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and g●●●● corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere ●aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation l●ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be mēbers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Fir●●● for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so

where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false

2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers † Rev. 13 1● buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratiō see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * Notvvithstāding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectiō which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratiō or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things al●ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would frō hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast † † Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.

because if they be not of that sort they affoard no such absolute separation at all but only from wilful rebellious and obstinate disobeyers euill speakers and from apparant grosse corruptions but not from the vvhole publike body of those assemblies nor from the lavvfull and good things vsed in such times ād standings as have not vvholy svvarued from the faith though there vvere divers grievous faults both in doctrine and practise suffered among them As by the example of the Ievvish Churches in the times of the Prophets especially of Christ himselfe may plainly appeare The Euangelistes make mention in diuers places That they worshipped God in vayne teaching for doctrine mens preceptes They made their proselites the Children of Hell two fold more then they were before They made the commaundements of God of none effect by theyr traditions such as beleeved in Christ they excommunicated c. Yet vvere they a true Church notvvithstanding these and many other grievous enormities vvith vvhom Christ himself and his Apostles had communion and fellovvship sometime in those good things that vvere among them And so might they vvith the Churches of England vvithout iustifying or allovving these things vvhich they see to be euill All vvhich things doe more fully appeare in the conference it selfe as it follovveth hereafter The Aunswer May it not fitly be said and applyed to D. B. in this case which Christ hath spoken concerning all such How sayest thow to thy brother Suffer me to cast a mote out of thyne eye and behold a beame is in thyne owne eye Hypocrite first cast the beame out of thyne owne eye and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brothers eye Mat. 7.4.5 Even the very last thing yea and all the show from Scripture that he brought for defence off theyr Church-estate what is it els but the wresting and misapplying of that Scripture to the Corinthians viz. 1. Cor. 3.12.15 as before may be seen in his Second note And now agayne for those Scriptures which here in his Third note he setteth downe eyther as alledged by vs or noted by himself out of the Evangelists for defence of theyr estate what other thing doth he in aunswer of the one or allegation of the other but onely pervert ād misapply them against the true sence and purpose of the Spirit of God therein Yet ●o so impudent is this Baal●e become as having so great a beame in his owne eye he will yet pretend as if he saw a mote in anothers eye and think he hath sayd ynough in defence of himself and his Churches estate if he can but pretend that others misapply the Scriptures against them But as Salomon saith Better is the poore that walketh in his vprightnes then he that abuseth his lips and is a foole Prove● 19.1 Therefore will I here both shew the vprightnes of our walking and withall convince the foolish abuse of his lips First then note that there are three things specially for which we alledge these and many other Scriptures which he concealeth Namely 1. That in the constitution of every true visible Church even from the beginning of the world this hath alway ben one speciall thing to be observed that it was separated from the world and abominations thereof Neyther otherwise could there ever be any true visible Church vpon the earth And yet with the Church of England it is not thus in theyr estate 2. That the Church of England now standing in confusion with the world and subiection to Antichrists Ministery worship c. we therefore as all other the people of God are bound to separate and depart from it because otherwise we could not but partake in her sinnes and so be subiect also to receyve of her plagues 3. That being thus separated from them we are bound to ioyne to the true Church of Christ in the communion of his Gospell to keep all his ordinances whatsoever he hath in his word prescribed for his Church notwithstanding any persecution or exception of Man to the contrary These three things are so evidently and vndeniably taught in these and the like Scriptures throughout the book of God as it is straunge and lamentable that any having them thus applyed should yet be so piteously blynd as not to see it or so impudently bold as to deny it For other the like Scriptures therefore teaching the same things see these also Gen. 9.27 12.1.4.7 19 12-16 et 35.2.3 Exod. 4.22.23 8.25.26.27 10.8.9.24.25.26 19.5.6 20.4.5.6 Numb 16.26 Deut. 7.3.5.6.11 Lev. 18.30 Ezra 9.14 Psal 110.3 119.21.113.128 Esa 2.2.3 8 12-18 9.16 44.5 Ier. 4.18 15.19 18.12.15 50.4.5.8 Ezech. 16.44 22.26 Micah 2.10 Zach. 2.7 8.21.22.23 Mal. 1.6.7.8.12.13.14 ct 2.8.9.13 3.16.17.18 Mat. 28.20 Ioh. 7.17 10.1 5. Act. 2.41.47 5.29 9.26.27.28 17.4.7.34 28.24 Rom. 16.17.18 1 Cor. 5.6.7 Phil. 1.5.27.28 3.2 Col. 2.8.22.23 1 Thes 5.22 2 Thes 3 3-12 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5.13.14 2 Tim. 3.1.2.3.13.14.15 2 Ioh. ver 9.10.11 Iude ver 3. Rev. 14.9.12 17.14 19. 9. 20.4.6 and 21.7.8.27 and 22 10-19 The words of these and the like Scriptures I need not here set downe The godly Reader will search them I doubt not after the example of the Be●eans so much commended by the Spirit of God Act. 17.11 Next I aunswer that the Apostles do themselues so alledge and apply the Scriptures to the matters which they handle as we after theyr example do in this For proof hereof see but these places following and mynd them well 1 Cor. 6.16 and 9.9.10 and 10 7-18 and 14.21 Rom. 9.25.26.27 28.29 and 10.18 Heb. 2 13.14 and 3.7 c. and 12.26 29. and 13.2.5.6 Iam. 2.8.9.10.21.22.23 and 4.5.6 and 5.16.17.18 1 Pet. 1.16 and 2. to and 3.20.21 2 Pet. 2. ch Ioh. 19.36 1 Ioh. 3.12.15 Iude ver 5.6.7.11.14.15 Rev. 11.8 Now compare herewith the places in the old Testament from whence these are borrowed and you shall fynd that divers differences might be noted between the one and the other Shall we therefore say that they are wrested or misapplyed by the Apostles God forbid To give an instance or two The Apostle Paul alledgeth that against fornication which by Moses was first spoken of lawfull mariage 1 Cor. 6.16 compared vvith Gen. 2.24 And in the same Epistle albeit the Corinthians which were of the Church there did not worship God by the Idols of Corinth but did onely eat at the feasts in the Temple which were after the sacrifices done yet the Apostle alledgeth agaynst them the example of the Israelites who both made a golden calfe and by it worshipped the Lord. 1 Cor. 8. and 10. chap. vvith Exod. 32.5.6 And the Apostle Iames speaking but of one particular breach of the Law viz the accepting of mens persons alledgeth and applyeth against it the summe of the whole Second Table Iam. 2.8.9.10 vvith Let. 19.18 And Iude agaynst Apostates Schismatiks disbounders

vvicked persons theyr offices beeing very gainefull and besides they liuing vnder the authoritie of the Heathirish Romans vvho ruled ouer them All these things considered it is very likely that the offices outvvard constitution on vvhich they so much depend vvere vvholy altered from the right institution and therefore vvould make nothing for them As for theyr allegation of Mat. 23.1 VVhere they say Christ testifieth that they had true offices by saying they satt in Moses chaire It vvill not help them any vvhit at all For Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chaire must be vnderstood of somevvhat else themselves ‡ ‡ Mr Barrovv Mr Greēvvood in diuers Letters and Treatises have vnderstood it heretofore of Moses doctrine The Aunswer Do not they erre that imagine evill And doth not a deceyver speak lyes Prov. 14.22.25 What then may we think of him that counteth it a small thing to lye against Man if he do not also open his mouth against heaven and give the lye to the holy Ghost himself See both in this man here Against vs and I feare against his own conscience he forgeth a lye when he sayth vve do vvholy depend on their outvvard constitution c. For he knoweth we obiect against them besides and separate from them for much false doctrine publikly taught and mainteyned among them and for theyr wretched persecution of the truth and Martyrs of Iesus Therefore do we not wholy depend on theyr outward constitution From which it is to be noted that he severeth theyr publik doctrine as himself sheweth in the next Section and so therefore here we speak accordingly And that he knoweth these things appeareth both by this Treatise first published by himself where we have declared it in divers particulars Pag. 66. 108. 157. 158 159. 160. and in that himself hath seen and alleadgeth in this very Section another treatise written in answer of Mr A. H. where mo instances are given concerning this matter As may be seen in that book Pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. 22. 23. 37. 90. 91. To the holy Ghost he giveth the lye yea and maketh Christ our Lord a sinner in that which here he speaketh first of the constitution of the Ievvish Churches For the Scripture teacheth that the constitution of that Church was a true one and that Christ did himself communicate therein with them Yet this man besides that he sayth afterward that it is very likely the offices and outvvard constitution thereof vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Euen here at first he sayth peremptorily that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Which how shamefully false it is may appeare even by this that in those very tymes the estate of the Iewes Church yet was such as they were a people separated from the world having the true Ministery ordinances worship and administration which God by Moses had commanded As these Scriptures do plainely testify Luk. 1.6.8 9.10 11. 2.22.23.24.27.46 Mat. 8.4 Ioh. 1.19 4.22 5.1 11.55.2 Tim. 1.3.5 Yea they would not at any hand admit eyther of confusion of people or of any other Ministery then God had ordeyned As may be seen for the first in Act. 21.28 29. and for the latter in Iob. 1 19-25 Mat. 21.25.26 How shameles then is it to say as here he doth that theyr constitution was as greatly altered and corrupted as that of the Churches of England which to this day stand confused of all sorts of people aswell the prophanest as the best among them and have no other Ministery or Leiturgy but such as they have receyved from Antichrist the man of sinne and from Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 And further if the Iewish Church had ben thus corrupted as he feareth not to affirme how could Christ have communicated with them as he did but he must needs have sinned ād that highly against the Law of God viz. if he had as it is now in England joyned to such a Church as were vnseparated from the World or had partaken with a false Ministery or had sent others to a straunge Priesthood and Service or had approved by word or deed any other ordinances then those which God had commaunded c. This Scribe then must eyther approve the Church-constitution of England by the word of God or els confesse that it and the Iewish Churches are in this poynt nothing alike or if neyther of these that then Iesus Christ was a sinner Of whom the truth itself and work of our redemption testify that he knew no sinne at all but was like to vs in all things sinne excepted 2 Cor. 5.21 Heb. 4.15 7.26 This man then doth thus also both blaspheme the Sonne of God and make the holy Ghost a lyar But there were he saith tvvo high Priests at once vvhereas by the Lavv of God there should be but one 1. If it were so albeit thus they offended in the number yet still there was that office and function of Priesthood which God had ordeyned not a new one of mans devise as is the whole Hierarchy of England from the hyest Archbishop to the lowest Parish Priest And so there is no comparison between these two 2. This was the personall sinne of the men not the constitution of that Church neyther of the Offices wherein they were See it in another example Iudas an Apostle of Christ yet betrayeth him Doth it therefore follow that his office of Ministery wherein he was set by Christ himself was vnlawfull Nay that was the sinne of the Man not of the Office wherein he was What is this then to the question in hand when as the Ministery of England is charged to be straunge vnlawfull false in the very offices and functions thereof Yea and this man himself doth here by the whole course of his speach graunt as much 3. Is there any thing here said for the Priests and constitution of the Church of England which the most popish Priests Prelates Monks c. may not aswell alledge for theyrs Is theyr Ministery or constitution therefore such as man be ioyned withall 4. See how straungely these men forget and contradict themselves T. G. first Reply Pag. 83 84. Mr Cartwright writing against D. Whitgift saith If the vvhole practise of the Church vnder the Lavv be looked vpon it shall not be found that any other ecclesiasticall Ministery vvas appointed then those orders of hy Priests and Levites c. vvhich vvere appoynted by the Lavv of God And further that as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any straunge doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true do rine vnder the Name of any other function then vvas instituted by God Yet this man with an whores forehead shameth not to perswade that the offices and outvvard constitution of that Church vvere vvholy altered from the right institution Thus

Levites Iff I say we consider and compare these Scriptures together how playne is it and vndeniable that Christs speach of sitting in Moses chayre c. doth necessarily imply the true offices and functions which God by Moses ordeyned for the teaching and guyding of Israel in his worship and service Thus also may Moses doctrine which they taught in those offices be fitly vnderstood ād comprised in the same speach And what variety then is there betweē this exposition and that which vnderstandeth it of Moses doctrine as he saith some of our selves have done heretofore Finally how ignorant and frivolous is it that here he pretendeth against this viz. that Moses vvas no Priest as they vvere but a Magistrate Whenas all the Scriptures aforesaid do reach that God by Moses appoynted them to this function and service And that so as Moses himself though he were not a Priest ordeyned by solemne rite yet by the appointment off God did annoint not onely the Tabernacle and all that was therein but Aaron also and his sonnes consecrating them to the Priests office and offring all the sacrifices appertayning therevnto Which afterward belonged onely to the Priests for to do Lev. 8. 9. chap. Psal 99.6 vvith Heb. 5.4 But perhaps there is a pad in the straw more lurking in his speach then all men are aware of For what if by these words Moses vvas no Priest but a Magistrate and therefore Moses chayre must be vnderstād of some vvhat els he insinuate that it is meant of the Magistrates authority and seing Christ inferreth vpon the sitting in Moses chayre All therefore vvhatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do that all people therefore are bound to keep whatsoever the Magistrates do commaund them Will not his words here beare and import thus much Yea may not his vnderstanding it of some what els joyned with the Magistrates authority seem directly to imply it and that so as what they commaund he thinketh it is to be observed be it lawfull or vnlawfull Which if it be his meaning hath he not here then covertly sowē most detestable doctrine both shamefully helping Christ himself ād wickedly crossing the whole Scripture and practise of the faithfull in all ages For proof whereof see but these and the like testimonyes Exod. 1.17 1 Sam. 22.17 Dan. 3 14-28 6.12.13 Mat. 22.21 Act. 4.18.19 and 5.28.29 17.6.7 Heb. 11. chap. Reu. 2.10.13 12.11.17 13.7.15 14.7.12.13 20.4 D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 6. 2. Secondly to let their constitution passe vvhich yet as I have said vvould be found as badde or vvorse then ours vve wil examine their corruptions in doctrine Wherein I would knovv of them vvhich are the greater sinnes of these two sorts viz. 1. A false and corrupt outward constitution 2. Or false and corrupt doctrines I thinke they vvill say the corrupt and false doctrines are the greater as they are indeed For that they doe vvound fester and corrupt the very conscience and doe deceive the hearers thereof Whereas the errors in the constitution of a Church especially in some circumstances as the errors with vs are and those of no small controversie in matters also not fundamentall are nothing nere so hurtfull by hovve much the Tithing of Mint Annis Commin are of lesser force then the other vveightier matters of the lavv Novv from hence I Reason thus If the greater sinnes namely in doctrine doe not simply ouerthrovv a companie of Christians from being a true Church Then much lesse vvill the lesser sinnes namely in the outvvard constitution c But the false doctrines which are the greater sinnes themselves confesse by the example of the said Churches doe not Therefore neither will the lesser For the better explayning of this poinct I would pray them resolve me of this question What if a company of Arians Anabaptistes or Papistes should bee gathered and established in a true outward constitution still reteyne their fundamentall errors before * * Sectiō 3 named Whether should their outward constitution make them a true Church yea or no I thinke they will say no. Thus I hope then it appeareth that the outward constitution whether falty or true availeth nothing to the ouerthrowing or making of a true Church vnlesse other doctrines of the foundation either false or true doe concurre therewith And thus their Obiection of the Iewish constitution is I trust fully ansvvered So that still their peremptory separation and condempning of the Churches of England for some outvvard corruptions remayneth still a grievous sinne vpō their heads for vvhich vvithout harty repentance they shall one day aunsvver before God vvhich vvill be too heavie a burthen for them to beare The Aunswer That which Christ sayd to the Scribes and Pharisees VVo be to you blynd guydes vvhich say VVhosoever svveareth by the Temple it is nothing but vvhosoever svveareth by the gold off the Temple Mat. 23.16.17 he offendeth Ye fooles and blynd vvhether is greater the gold or the Temple that sanctifyeth the gold c. May it not in this case also fitly be applyed to this Scribe Specially seing the Church in the constitution thereof if we sever it from the doctrine as here he doth may in divers respects be compared with the Temple and the doctrine of truth taught and vpheld in the Church with the gold of the Temple As both by these Scriptures doth plainely appeare 2 Cor. 6.16.17 vvith 1 Tim. 3.15 1 Cor. 14.5.6.19.23.24.25.33 2 Thes 2.4.4 Rev. 11.1.2 And by this also that God hath made the promise of his presence and blessing to his Church as to the Temple wherein he will dwell it being so constituted and walking as he hath commaunded Lev. 26.11.12 with 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Esa 52.11.12 Ezech. 37.26.27.28 48.35 Mat. 28.20 Yea and this man himself did * Section 3. here a litle before alledge that by gold and siluer spoken of 1 Cor. 3.12 the Apostle meaneth true doctrine Which if it were so there then by his owne exposition may that saying of Christ to the Pharisees well be applyed to him in this case Secondly I aske Doth not the constitution be it true or false alway include the whole body of the Church whereas the false Doctrine is often found but in some members thereof This may be seen in the Churches of Israel Corinth Galatia Pergamus etc. In which respect also the false and corrupt constitution may be of greater waight and more danger then the false and corrupt Doctrine inasmuch as the wounding and infecting of the whole body is far worse then of some parts onely and because the parts so infected if they cannot otherwise beholden may be cut of and yet the body preserved Not contrarily For the better explaning whereof let him resolve me which of these propositions is the truer viz. VVhere there is in a Church false doctrine there is a false Church Or this VVhere there is a false constitution there is a

sinnes not to rest in any of his vnrighteousnes neyther to towch any vncleane thing at all 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4.5.6 Isa 52.11 2 Cor. 6.17 Yea in that very * Iudg. 2.3 Scripture which is here quoted by himself the Angel of the Lord joyneth with thorne to their sides destruction by there Gods that is by their worship and religion But they hope God vvill in tyme abolish them And so do we have too Yet we must remember that the Scripture sayth this abolition of them shal be by the Spirit of the Lords mouth a I 〈◊〉 of his Gospell in the testimony of his servants 2 Thes 2 8. Rev. 12.11 14.6.7.8.12 It is not then the yeelding vnto them but the witnessing against them by which we can hope it faith for the abolishment of them Neyther do we doubt but they being thus discovered God will also stirre vp the hearts of Kings and Rulers of the earth as already in part he hath begun to hate that whore of Babylon with her abominations and to make her desolate and naked Rev 17 16. Yet too before they come to do this they have given theyr power and authority to the Beast ād have also fought but not prevayled against the Lambe Iesus Christ and them that are on his side his called and chosen and faithfull witnesses Rev. 17.13.14 Therefore dare not we runne into theyr extremityes to allow eyther by word or deed the corruptions of Antichrist that Man of sinne to receyve in our forehead or hand the print of his Nauie or marke of his ordinances to pursue to death the witnesses of Christ or any way to approve thereof c. But we wayte the appoynted tyme of the Lord for the full abolition and redresse of all these impietyes And in the meanetyme through the grace of Christ we witnes against them Yet being both thankfull to God for any truth they hold and sory also that with it they joyne the abominations of the Man of sinne and do so set a wall between the Lord and themselues 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.5 Ezech. 43.8 Where he sayth they hold most excellent truths and doctrines of salvation as soundly as any Church vpō the face of the earth albeit by this it might seem they have very yll neighbours and for so large comparison due proof also may well be desired yet for the present I will but aske how this speach of his agreeth with the testimony of others among them men of far riper iudgement and better discerning who have testifyed of theyr estate and published that * Demōstration in the Preface to the Reader Albeit many nations vvhich have renounced the vvhore of Rome are heynously sinfull against the glorious Maiesty of Iesus Christ yet there is none in the vvorld so far out of square as is England in retayning the Popish Hierarchy first coyned in the mystery of iniquity and that filthy sinke of the Canon Lavv vvhich vvas first invented and patched together for the confirmation and increasing of the Kingdome of Antichrist Also that with them “ Mr Gilbyes book Pa. 29 many religions are mixed together off Christ and Antichrist of God and the Divell That † Letter to Mr Hooker Pag. 4 vnder the shevv of inveighing against Puritanes the chiefest poynts of Popish blasphemy are many tymes and in many places by divers me● not obscurely broached both in Sermons and in VVriting That ♣ 2 Ad non to Parliam Pag 6. although some truth be taught by some Preachers yet no Preacher may vvithout great daunger of the Lavves vtter all the truth cōprised in the book of God * Ibid. That theyr ovvne Iniunctions Articles Canons c. may not be broken or offended against but vvith more danger then to offend against the Bible That ‡ Ibid. the Bible must haue no further scope then by these it is assigned That * Demonstr in the Prefa to the Gover they give leave to a man to be any thing sauing a sound Christian That † Admon to Parliam Pag 21. theyr publik Baptisme is f●ll of childish and superstitious toyes That “ Mr Gib●yes book Pag. 2. they eat not the Lords supper but play a pageant of theyr ovvne to blynd the people and keep them still in superstition to make the silly soules beleev that they have an English Masse and so put no difference betvvixt truth and falsehood betvvixt Christ and Antichrist betvvixt God and the Divell Thus do the best of them professe and testify of theyr estate Shall we then think as D.B. would perswade that there is not any Church vpon the face of the earth vvhich doth more soundly retayne the truth and doctrine of saluation God forbid Or doth he meane as Mr Hooker a rare conceyted man of the Prelates crew speaketh of the Church of Rome ♣ Hookers Ecclesiast Policy Book 3. Pag. 130. that it doth still constantly persist in mayne parts of the Christian truth and is of the family of Iesus Christ Yea * Ibid. Book 5. Pag. 188. that it is doe vnto her to be held and reputed a part of the house of God and a limme of the visible Church of Christ If such be D. B. his meaning here for theyr Church yet this doth but verify the Proverbe which sayth As is the Mother so is the daughter Ezech. 16.44 But no matter so long as he can with an hard forehead pretend that theyr errors do not simply ouerthrovv the truth neyther are held of obstinacy but are also for the most part off great controversy and disputation among the learned Yet marke that he saith for the most part Of them all belike he will not speak it Or if he should might he not likewise plead for the holding or intertayning agayne of Auricular Confession Seven Sacraments Setting vp off candels Reservation of the Sacrament Denying of the Cup to the common people Images in Temples for ornament or remembrance Monks Fryers Nunnes c. Or will not the Lutherans when they are driven to a straite thus alledge for themselves Yea doth not * P. Ma●t Loc. com Epist ad Pereg Lond. Pag. 1128. c 〈◊〉 against whom Peter Martyr did therefore write very sharpely thus plead for the very Anabaptists And will not Hooker think you pretend as much for his Romish Bethal Or doth he it not in deed when he sayth even of Transubstantiation ‡ Ho●k Ecclesiast pol. book 5. Pag. 1●6 that it is a thing vvhich no vvay can eyther further or hinder vs hovvsoever it stand And “ Ibid. Pag. 186. that the very thing vvhich separateth vtterly and cut●eth of cleane from the visible Curch of Christ is playne apostasy direct deny all vtter rejection of the VVHOLE Christiā faith as far as the Sonne is professedly different from infidelity Now compare with this also Mr Iacobs Replyes following Pag. 57. 101. 105. 109. 141. 156. 192. And see if theyr plea for the

testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that † Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for

is to seek new shifts and euasions Which yet are to no purpose at all except against your self and your Church For the first you say it is foule wrong to your Churches and to your words to say That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures If it be any wrong it is done by your self Are not these your owne words towching your Churches opinion in your ‡ Pag. 28. former Reply We hold Christs ordinance to be of two sorts written or vnwritten the first necessary the second arbitrary the first touching doctrine that is towching faith and the inward opinion onely c. the second towching outvvard orders in the Church vvhich are truly accounted Christs ovvne though particularly deuised by the Churche such vve hold all outvvard gouernement and ceremonies because they be not simply of the foundation neyther vvritten nor certaine nor perpetuall c. How say you to these words All outvvard gouernement and ceremonies Are they not your owne And is it not your Churches opinion by your owne saying Have I then gathered or written otherwise then your self affirme your Church holdeth If I haue then lay your words and myne together and let them speak for both If not let the Reader iudge whether you haue not done me foule vvrong and if there be any to your CHVR●ch whether your self have not committed it Quitte your self of it as well as you can Besides you forget your self wondrously and speak things contradictory For now speaking of your Churches opinion and your owne words you say it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though externall yet are perpetuall things and necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures Yet before you told vs your Church holdeth all outvvard gouernement ceremonies orders to be vnvvritten vncertaine not perpetuall but arbitrary to be appointed and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate Eyther there fore to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. are not outward neyther concerning the governement ceremonies nor orders of the Church or els without question you ‡ Mendatem oportet esse memo●em forget your self straungely and speak daggers which runne into your owne bowels But to take that which now the euidence of the truth hath wrung frō you seing to preach to pray to administer Sacraments though externall yet are perpetuall necessary and vnchangeable by the Scriptures you must eyther from the Scriptures show that you haue these according to Christs ordinance or els yeeld that your practise is contrary to the professing of Christ for your Prophet Priest and King to be obeyed in his ovvne ordinance onely and no other And consequently that the Assūption of your mayne Reason is false Which is to yeeld the cause And mynd withall that * Eph. 4.11 and 6.18 Rom. 12.7.8 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. c. 1 Tim. 3.15 5.17.8.6.13.14 Mat. 2● 19.20 1 Pet. 5 1-4 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Christs ordinance is not onely for these things to be done but for the offices wherein and the manner whereby they are to be performed If you wil not beleev me nor the Scriptures alledged yet heare your owne men what they teach in this poynt Mr. Cartvvright saith “ T. C. first Rep. pag. 83 God hath not onely ordeyned that the vvord should be preached but hath ordeined also in vvhat order and by vvhom it should be preached And againe speaking of the Iewes Church he saith as it vvas not lavvfull to bring in any strange doctrine so vvas it not lavvfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function then vvas instituted by God The Admonitions Counterpoyson Demonstration and many other your writings affirme the same both for preaching and Sacraments and other points of the outward order and governemēt of the Church And now I remember my self your self have confessed it ‡ Pag. 19 before in playne termes when you graunt it is Christs ordinance to have a true Pastor to a faithfull people and would have vs beleev that it is false to say you preach in straunge functions or have not the Sacraments duly ministred etc. I hope therefore in your next we shal have proof not that you have Preaching Prayer Sacraments which we know the Papists also and Anabaptists haue but that you have them in those offices and after that maner which Christ hath ordeined Now where you say your expresse vvords and Churches meaning is that Any reasonable kind of Church gouernement rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor vvritten in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be your onely and absolute King Prophet neuertheles For answer hereof besides that already brought I will say no more to this Popish assertion but onely inferre herevpon as followeth But the Church-governement rites and orders which Christ in his Ttestament hath ordeyned vnchangeably are a reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement rites and orders Therefore these so vnchangeably ordeined by Christ yet by your owne expresse words and your Churches meaning are arbitrary and chāgeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet forsooth Christ is still your onely and absolute King and Prophet neuertheles Let vs now see Mr. Iacob what aunswer you will make herevnto without sclandering cavilling and malitious depraving The second note in your explication is that you say you justifie not the aforesayd opinion of your State But how then do your book and the title of it agree Nay how do your selfe and that title agree when you wil not defend that which is the very point of the cōtrouersie between your Churches and vs Was there euer a more absurd defence heard of But now leaving your Church in the briers yet speak for your self How do you Mr. Iacob hold Christ your Prophet Priest and King when seeing your Church to erre in so many and so waightie pointes and that so as you can not iustifie yet you haue not all this time admonished them and by due order either brought them to repentance or left them as obstinate in sinne and wilfully disobeying the voice of Christ Where you say that thus to beleev and practise as your Church doth simply destroyeth no mans saluatiō in Christ you take that for graunted which you should proue Besides that the Papists Anabaptists and others may say as much for other outward things among them Yea no doubt but Ieroboam him self and his Priests and people said likewise that for Ierusalē to be the place and the sonnes of Aaron the Priestes and such like these were outward things and not to obserue them or to beleev otherwise then Iudah did concerning them simply destroied no mans saluation in Christ Was this therefore a sound defence of their apostasie Or might any vnder such pretence have continued and joined with them therein Of your second generall point and so of Mr. Cranmer Ridley c. I haue spoken

they adde the persecuting also of such as do convince them Now when you have showed how your self vnderstand and how we are to walke in these according to the Scriptures from point to point then applie herevnto your example of Christ here alledged and see if you do not abuse it Mind withall that if you say Christ knew this as he was God you speak nothing to the question which is how men must walk toward men If you say he knew it as he vvas man then must you prove 1. that these Iewes were convicted in conscience that he was the Christ and yet denied and blasphemed him 2. that Christ knew this as he was man 3. that still he joyned in spirituall communion with them thus convicted 4. that the estate of your Ministers and people is such as theirs was then as touching a true Ministerie and constitution of the Church 5. that the same rules and proceeding is to be vsed toward your Church and members thereof afore they can be separated from that was to be vsed toward that Church and People at that time Mind also that the Apostles preaching to the Iewes though they knew not who were convicted in conscience who not yet * Act. 2. et 13. et 17. et 18. et 19. chap vpon their refusall of the truth offred did separate from all where they were And so Christ before had required them to do Mat. 10.14 Finally mind that mens consciences are blind ignorant corrupt and the heart of man deceitful and wicked above all things Who can know it but the Lord only which searcheth the heart and trieth the reines to give every man according to his waies according to the fruit of his works Ier. 17.9.10 It is erroneous therefore to hold as you do that we may not separate till we know all to be convicted in their conscience If this were to be done then neither separation from any people neither any true Churches should ever be vpon the earth because such conviction can never be either knowen of men or had in the world It doth and must suffice vs that the truth on the one hand and the errors on the other be made knowen and convicted that is be layd open and proved from the word of God by the testimonie of his servants and that we see men by words or workes refuse the truth and imbrace error and so judg themselves vnworthy of euerlasting life Thus for your Churches M. Iacob it sufficeth vs that in your Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of people they be proved the daughters of Babylon that mother of whoredomes Out of which God hath † Rev. 18.4 17.5 vve Ezec. 16.44 charged all his people without exception or delay presently for to depart If you or any other will not obey this commaundement of God but will still partake in the sinnes of your worship and Ministery what is it to vs We must follow Christ * Heb. 5.9 who is made author of saluation to such onely as obey him Neither may we † Ier. 15.19 returne vnto you but we must waite till God bring you to vs and make you partakers of the same grace in Christ Of your third generall point here idly mentioned and absurdly gathered I have spoken before Pag. 8. Next instead of aunswering you fall a marveling because I say Mr. Hus and other of the holy Martyrs did heare and say Masse to their dying day and some of them also acknowledg the Popes supremacy But why do you not also marvell that I sayd divers of them acknowledged some the Popes calling some 7 Sacraments some Purgatory some Auricular confession and such like grieuous errors For these I ioyned with the other and of them you speak not a word Belike you thinke they may stand with the Gospell wel inough and if your Church had retained or now should resume them againe you would judg of them as of the other corruptions remaining among you Yet mind withall 1. that thus you make a way for mo popish enormities to be mainteined and to prevaile apace in your Church as “ Hovv say you to those Popish doctrines novv spreading among you of Christes soule descēding into Hel. of freevvill c. beginneth alredy very fast 2. And that you can no better nor otherwise defend your present Church-estate then you could if it also retayned seven Sacraments Purgatory Auricular confession c. Let the Reader observe this And beware you in time least a wo come vpon you for such halting and pleading for Baall Now for your marvelling at me for saying thus of Mr. Hus and other the Martyrs I aske you Saith not the book of Acts and Monuments the same yea say not the Martyrs thus much of themselves Why do you not then marvell also at them For these particulars it were needles to go through all the historie of the Martyrs specially seeing they are so plainly noted in their stories and every where among you the books are in your hands Yet because Mr. Hus is here spoken of by name and you are not far frō rasing him out of the nūber of the Martyrs I will first note some particulars concerning him and then cleare him and the rest from your rash condemnation In the historie of the Martyrs before mentioned we find that Iohn Hus vnto his death held 1. † Act. and Monu edit 5. pag. 561. seven Sacramēts 2. ‡ Ibid. pag. 581. a. 584. b the Popes office and the authority of the Church of Rome 3. “ Ibid. p. 566 b. et 574. Auricular cōfession to Priests and was himself a little before his death confessed and absolved by a Monke 4. * Ibid. p. 577 a. et 581. a. said Masse himself 5. † Ibid. p. 546 held that the substance of the bread was altered into the body of Christ and that Christs body which was borne of the virgin Mary is really and totally in the Sacrament of the Altar with other the like popish opinions Now you Mr. Iacob sticke not vpon some of these to inferre that then surely neither Hus nor any of the rest that so held and did vvere holy Martyrs Your reason is because therein are found errors plainely fundamētall vvhich of them selues abolish from Christ Among which no doubt but you reckon the Masse and transubstantiation specially Thus haue you cleane put out Maister Hus and other the servants of Christ faithfull in that which they saw from being any longer in the Catalogue of the Martyrs or accounted true Christians May I not then iustly returne vpon your self your owne saying Is this you that vvhite the toombes of the Martyrs and yet in fine condemne them for no true Christians for no holy Martyrs But you say the book of Acts and Monuments vvhither I send you affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Let the book it self speak for vs both In the end of Iohn Hus his storie thus it saith

* Act and Mon. edi● 5. p. 581. ● He neither denied their popish transubstantion neither spake against the authority of the Church of Rome if it vvere vvell governed nor yet the 7. Sacraments and also sayd Masse himself and almost in all their popish opinions vvas a Papist vvith them Thus hath that book word for word What say you now vnto it What think you of these particulars and of that conclusion that not onely in these but almost in all their opinions He vvas a Papist vvith them Againe in the same book Hierom of Prage another Martyr speaking of Iohn Hus saith ‡ Ibid. pag. 584. b. he never maintained any doctrine against the Church of Rome but onely spake against their naughty life To which purpose may be minded also that the Hussites in Bohemia so called to this day for following Iohn Hus are for trausubstantiation and most of the popish errors and worship as grosse as the Papists themselves And to give an instance of our owne countreymen the same history speaking of Thomas Bilney who was burnt at Norwich hath thus * Ibid. pa. 921. b. As touching the Masse and Sacrament of the Altar as he never varyed frō himself so he never differed therein frō the most grossest Catholicks Mark these words he differed not therein from the most grossest How now will this and your speach agree who blush not to say that the book of Acts and Monuments affirmeth not that they held these errors in the largest and grossest sort Besides this bold vntruth of yours let the Reader mind how plainely you insinuate that if your Church had the Masse and the Popes supremacy so it were not in the largest and grossest sort you could defend their case aswell then as you do now by bearing the world in hand that these things might stand vvith Christ crucified c. Let the Reader mind and remember it I say no more It remaineth that now I cleare M. Hus and the rest of the Martyrs from your rash censure You judge if any of them held any errors that be fundamentall they are no holy Martyrs but abolished from Christ This I denie And you to proue it should from the Scriptures have showed first what it is to be fundamētall or of the foundation then that whosoever holdeth such error is abolished from Christ But you have done neither I know that here and everie where you give vs your bare word and obtrude vnto vs your owne fancies But your words are no Oracles nor your fācies rules for any to follow Handle these things therefore more soundly in your next And what you speak speak it frō the word of God In the meane time for better clearing of the truth and Martyrs I will show you my mind being ready notwithstanding to heare any that can show better from the word of God And so I pray you take this and all my writings First the word foundation is vsed in the scripture and therefore is of vs to be considered divers waies One is in respect of God and his election Of the foundation and fundamental points or of his Church and people called and sanctified in Christ 2. Tim. 2.19 Psal 87. Pro. 10.25 Another is in respect of the onely ground of all true faith and Churches which is Iesus Christ or of the first principles and speciall heads of Christian religion Mat. 16.15.16.17.18 1 Cor. 3.11 Esa 26.16 1 Pet. 2.6 with Heb. 6.1.2 A third is in respect of the Apostles and Prophets doctrine concerning Christ or of our receiving it and building therevpon Ephes 2.20 Rev. 21.14 1 Cor. 3 10-15 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Luk. 6.48.49 Now which way soever you take it there is no question but the Martyrs although they erred through ignorance of that time in some waightie points of Christs Religion which you call fundamentall yet were notwithstanding holy Martyrs For touching the first of the exceptions aforesaid Gods foundation remained sure and sealed vnto them so as the Lord knew them to be his and they also were sanctified both to witnes vnto death the truth then called in question and to depart from the contrarie iniquitie Touching the second and third they both beleeved in Iesus Christ as it pleased God to reveale him in their age by the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles and they built firmely therevpon not stumbling at the word and disobeying it as is the manner of most now a daies but obeying and holding it forth vnto death So as when the stormes and floods of persecution beat vpon them they were not shaken from the truth they testified but remained constant to the end even when the politick Statutes of Princes the subtill arguments of the learned the earnest perswasion of their friends the great losse of their goods liberty estimation in the world finally the most cruell vsage and tirannie of the Adversaries as it were so many waves and tempests stronglie assailed to drive them a contrarie course Thus were they faithfull to God and loved not their lives vnto death as their Martyrdome proclaimeth to all the world howsoever you could be content it seemeth for any the more advantage to your selves to lay their honour in the dust Secondly in this question we are to discerne betweeen the errors them selves and between the persons that hold them The errours may in their nature be fundamentall as you speak and yet the persons erring therein of ignorance not striving against the light revealed but indevoring to walk faithfully in the truth they see may through Gods mercie in Christ be saved For example some of the Corinthians that denied * 1 Cor. 15.12 the resurrection of the body and some of the Galatians that erred about “ Gal. 4.9.10.21 5.2.3.10 and 6.12.13.15 Circumcision the Law although the errors were in their owne nature fundamentall as you will not deme yet might they that dyed in them before Paules epistles came to those Churches thereabout be saved of God As we * 1 Cor. 11.30.31.32 read that some were dead and chastised of God a-about their abuse of the Sacrament yet not condemned with the world Likewise of Abijah the sonne of Ieroboam that made Israell to sinne the ‡ 1 King 14.1.13 Scripture recordeth that God shewed him mercie because in him was found some goodnes toward the Lord God of Israell Where marke those words some goodnes By which appeareth that although he were as the rest in that generall apostasie of Israell which your self account fundamētal yet having some goodnes in him towards the Lord he found mercie at his hands Furthermore at this day concerning the errors of the Lutherans about cōsubstantiation and the person of Christ of the Anabaptists about Christs humanitie and denying Baptisme to the seed of the faithfull of the Papistes about trāsubstantiation the Popes supremacie c. I suppose that you will graunt both that these errors be fundamentall as touching the nature of the errors thēselves and that yet

as for your owne You know that very many of the Martyrs were popish Priests And if there were no other proof even their degradation from that Priesthood doth testifie it You might also thus plead for retaining and allowing of Monks and Fryars because some of them have died Martyrs and yet not renounced their callings and functions This I alledged ‡ In the aunsvver to your 1. Replie to the 1 Reasō follovving heretofore but you cannot yet finde any leasure to aunswer it Yet now for that you speak here what will you say to † Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 934. a. such as being degraded of their Ministerie received from the Prelates thanked God that they were delivered from the malignāt Church of Antichrist Did they not by this and such like speach and cariage noted in their stories declare how willingly they left both that Church Ministery worship and whatsoever belonged thereto Although through ignorance of the time they saw not some things wherein since their daies God hath given a greater light To end this point then howsoever it be for their renouncing certaine it is as their stories show that such of them as had receved Ministerie from the Prelates were before their death not only excommunicate as were the rest of the Martyrs but degraded also from the functions and Ministerie they had received So as it cannot but be as I said that when they dyed Martyrs they neither had nor ioyned with the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for See the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 895. b. 934. a. 1361. b. 1385. a. 1604. a. storie in the degrading of Richard Bayfield Henry Forest Mr. Saunders Mr. Tailor Mr. Ridley c. Thus the bold vntruth wherewith you charge me falsly is returned iustly vpon your owne head Next after this which was in the beginning of my defence as your self have noted you come to the sixt point of my aunsvver passing by the other things which come between Is this to reply soundly Is this your worthy Confutation which your followers judge vnaunswerable What I pray may be the cause why you snatch thus here a peece and there a peece and prosecute not my aunswer in order from point to point as I gave it Is it because I handle things disorderly or passe by any thing in your Reply vnaunswered If I do show it But in deed is it not because you are not able to reply against my aunswer as it is given and therefore are glad to lay hold sometimes of one thing sometimes of another as you think you can best deale with that so you may trouble the Reader and seeme to say some thing when in deed you say nothing at all Let the Reader but well mind this Reply of yours and then judge if ever he saw anie thing more raw frivolous cōfused absurd Yet such as it is let vs see now what you say to that point of my aunswer whereof you speake next First you tell vs that where you said before the outward orders of the Church be not of the foundation simply you meant not at all of the verie foundation I see your meaning now Mr. Iacob which before I neither did nor could Sure you had need make a Commentarie vpon your Replie if you expound your words euerie where as you do here But now that you have told vs your meaning will you stand vnto it Do you indeed by not simply meane not at all Then marke what straūg assertions lurke in your writing which before we could not perceiue In one place you say * Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reasō following The Papists forbidding of marriage and meates if they had done no worse doth not make them departers from the faith that is not totally or as you have it in the Margent not fundamentally not simply And then you adde No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Now by your owne exposition your meaning is that none of these make them departers from the faith at all For by not simply you say you meane not at all Thus you teach most shamefull false doctrine and make the holy Ghost a liar who even “ 1 Tim. 4.1.3 for these things saith they do depart from the faith Againe you say ‡ Your 1. Reply to the 1. Reason following The doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions and practise of your Church do not ioyne togeather Christ and Antichrist simply that is not at all by this your new coined meaning And yet in the same place you confesse they ioyne togeather Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist It is false then that they ioyne not Christ and Antichrist at all as by this interpretation must be your meaning And even here a little before you said † Pag. 35. to beleeue practise as your Church doth for your Church-gouernemēt rites and orders simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ that is by this exposition not at all But your Church so beleeveth and practiseth these things as is derogatorie both to the office of Christ the faithfulnes of the Apostles and the perfection of the Scriptures and such as do not so beleeve and practise but witnes the truth against them they imprison banish kill and thus become guiltie of innocent bloud Yet you are bold to blesse your self your whole Church and greatest persecuters in all these mischiefs affirming that thus to beleev and practise destroieth not at all any mans salvation in Christ For when you say not simply you will have vs vnderstand your meaning to be not at all Yea you take it ill because I will not see this to be your meaning But now I doubt you will be more grieved because I see it so well Yet it were better Mr. Iacob if in time you were grieved at your self for vsing such vngodly elusions to turne away the truth See you not what pesriferous doctrine your Reply by this meanes yeelds euery where Marvell not at it It is just with God to make your owne pen the publisher of your owne follie and impietie seeing you will needs plead for Antichrist against the cleare light But let vs come to examine the point it self You say the outward orders of the Church are not at all of the verie foundation What say you then to that which is written Heb. 6.1.2 Doth not the Apostle speaking there † Heb. 6.1.2 of his laying the foundation mention in particular the doctrine of Baptismes and laying on of hands besides repentance from dead vvorks and consequently from mens traditions in Gods worship How say you Do not these concerne the outward orders of the Church And doth not the Apostle reckon them with the rest there named in his laying of the foundation I could also put you in mind how it concerneth the Churches outward governemēt vvhether the Pope be head of the church or Christ only whether Circumcision be now to be observed or not c. But these and

in such case as Ieroboams was who altered but the outward ordinances of the Church as taking them to be things arbitrary at the pleasure of man Some of them I doubt not wil think you do them foule iniurie And if anie be done vnto you it is done by your self I say no more In the fourth likewise who is it of your owne Church that will not think you offer yet more iniurie both to the State and your self To the State in that you make them maintainers of Popish shifts To your self in that thus you bewray you are at a Non plus and yet yeeld not to the truth Did not your self in your first Replie vse these as good and soūd reasons And now they are convinced to be Popish have not a word to speak in defence of them but put vs over to the State for an aūswer Babell is sore wounded when all her best Physitians do thus give her over For the fift you referre vs to the first point of your explication before Which is aunswered For the sixt you referre vs to the second Which also is aunswered Neither is there any thing of waight in either of the places whither you send vs for aunswer of the particulars here conteined Let others mind if you will not what I said in the fifth and sixth aunswer before and see if your explications have any thing against them to any purpose The seventh you confesse to be against the state of your Church This I wish the Reader to marke And then having minded what I aunswered in the * pag. 34 seaventh place let him consider how wofull the estate of your Church is But now M. Iacob why defēd you not your Church seeing this is against the verie state of it by your owne confessiō Is not your book called A defence of the Churches and Ministery of England Why do you not then performe what the title of your book doth promise A worthie Champion sure you are to defend a Church that leave it thus in extream miserie without anie succour at all At first you seemed as if you would strike all downe afore you in defence of your Churches and Ministerie Now lo you can be content to leave them on the plaine field to shift for themselves so your self may have hope to scape by running away Before you told vs of the defence of your Churches Now you think it inough to say It is against the state of our Church and not against me Yet tell vs Mr. Iacob are you not a member of that Church And is not that then which is against the state of your Church also against you Otherwise it must needs be that your Church hath a strange estate or that you are a straunge member thereof Can the hand or eye say I am not of the bodie Or that which is against the state of the bodie yet is not against me Yet such is your aunswer as sencelesse as absurd Besides that thus whiles you think to pull your owne neck out of the collar you plunge both your self and your Church deeper in And note withall Howsoever you and such like disagree from the state of your Church in anie thing yet in this you can all agree well ynough to conspire against Christ and against his Church But so it hath ben of old Manasseh * Esa 9.20 21. and Ephraim though they were each against other were both against Iudah The Pharises and Sadducees though adversaries one to another yet ‡ Mat. 2● 15.23 Act. 5.17 handed togeather both of them against the Lord Iesus Hitherto of the seaven particulars I obiected Which all of them remaine vntaken away And thus far of the second exception and your Replies against it In which I have staied the longer because the discussing hereof will more plainelie and without all question end the controversie between vs. Chap. 6. The third Exception against Mr. Iacobs Assumption aforseid Fr. Iohnson Thirdly shew by Scripture how the 36. Article of your doctrine and book alledged agreeth with the Gospell of Christ and true Christianitie The wordes of the Article are these as followeth The Book of consecration of Archbishops and Bishops and ordering of Priests and Deacons doth conteine all things necessary to such consecration and ordering neither hath it any thing that of it self is superstitious or vngodly And therefore whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the Rytes of that book we decree all such to be rightly orderly and lawfully consecrated and ordered Also how it agreeth with the Gospell and true Christianitie That the Apocrypha books and Homilies are enioined to be read in the Church by the Ministers diligently and distinctly As may be seen in Art 6 and 35. of that doctrine and book aforesaid H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur third Exception is this That the 36. Article of ordaining Bishops Priests and Deacons Also the reading of Apocrypha bookes and Homilies in the Church agree not with true Christianitie Ergo the Assumption aboue is false that is the vvhole doctrine of that booke of Articles is not sufficient to make vs true Christians I aunsvver you should have said those poincts destroy vtterly true Christianity Ergo c. Els the Argument follovveth not But then vve denie flatly the Antecedent or first part of the Reason But your Reason you vvill say shall goe as you have put it Then marke these reasons even as good as yours and all one An Ethiopian is vvhite of his teeth therefore he is a vvhite man A Svvanne is black of his bill Fr. Io. therefore a Svvann is black * Note that Mr. Iacob hath added this since he received aunswer to the former It was not in the copy before Such also are almost all his notes in the Margent and some alteration in his Replies specially in his first Reply to the Seaventh Reason following Let the Reader observe this dealing My Brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a vvodden legge therefore my brother is no true man Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Excep VVHat the third Exception is you see Have you now as was before required of you shewed these things by the Scriptures Not at all First then marke that although wee call neuer so much for proof and evidence from the Scripture yet you neuer bring it but labour to put it off with other shifts and deuices As if our consciences were to be built vpō your fancies and not vpō the written word of God But what do you say to our demaund First you tell vs these thinges do not vtterly destroy true Christianitie Next you graunt notwithstanding that they agree with it as black doeth with white that is they are cleane contrarie vnto it For this your similitudes doe import Where you alledge That these things destroy not true Christianity we answer that euen that Hierarchy worship cōstitution and gouernement which you professe and practise as appeareth

by those and other your Articles and Iniunctions in our former answer alleadged to which yet we haue receyued no aunswer being directly Antichristian doe vtterlie destroy true Christianitie so as the people and Churches so professing and practising can not * Nota. in that estate by the word of God be iudged true Christians or the true constituted Churches of Christ Your similitudes are not against vs but against your selues in asmuch as cōparing the doctrines of the Gospel which you professe with the whitenes of an Aethiopians teeth and your Antichristian Ministerie worship Courtes and cōfusion of people with the blacknes of an Aethiopians body this and such like similitudes doe fitly declare your estate And the approving of your Churches black constitution by some white doctrines of the Gospel professed among you is as if you should reason thus An Aethiopian is white of his teeth there fore he is a white man A blacke Rauen is white of her bill therefore a blacke Rauen is a white bi●d Now when you had received this aunswer and saw these comparisōs turned vpon your self then you devised another being not able to maintaine the former And this last you have published in your printed book as if it had ben in your written coppie which I aunswered where it was not at all The abuse is great not to me only but to the Reader inasmuch as these things were by you so published as if your last comparison neither were nor could be aunswered Let the Reader note this maner of dealing for such as it is The similitude now added to the rest is this My brother hath an eye of glasse or he hath a woodden legge therefore my brother is no true man I aunswer that after your woonted maner you take for graunted that which you should prove viz that your Church in that constitution is as a man with an eye of glasse or woodden legge This I denie to be your case Prove it so to be if you can The Scripture describeth the false Church in their constitution specially touching the Ministerie not vnder the similitude of men vvith woodden legges or the like but vnder the similitude of ‡ Rev. 9.7.8.9.10 13.11 19.20 Locusts whose forme is like vnto horses prepared to battell with crovvnes on their head like gold vvith faces of men heare of vvomen teeth of Lyons habergions of yron vvings like charets tayles of scorpions and stings in them to hurt vvithall Now I would know of you Mr. Iacob whether these be men with woodden legges or monsters with mens faces In like manner whether the Churches which in their constitution chiefly of Ministerie do resemble these be like to men with some defects or to beasts with some resemblance of men Either therefore must you p●ove the constitution of your Church to be a true one as the man you speake on is which all may see you cannot do or this comparison fitteth not your turne We must mind and beleev what the Scripture teacheth not what you would beare vs in hand without any proof But it may be you would be vnderstood of the man of sinne spoken of 2 Thes 2. or of the whorish woman mentioned in the Revelation 2 Thes 2.3 Rev. 17.1 If that be your meaning it is against your self and so applie it If you meane otherwise it fitteth not your case as I shewed before And thus the comparison applied to your estate is woodden that is absurd and glassie that is brittle such as will not bide a blow H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 3. Excep YOur Third Exception is That the 16. Article of consecrating Bishops and Priestes and the 6. and 35. Article of Apocripha and Homilies doe not agree with the Gospell What then Ergo our Churches profession and practise differ Most false For our Churches doe professe that these things doe agree vvith the Gospell vvell enough Also their practise is thereafter Or doe you conclude Ergo our Churches holde not Christ to saluation In deede so I tooke your purpose at the first but novve in plaine categoricall termes you auouch it That these things being directly Antichristian doe vtterly destroy true Christianity So then Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. were verie Antichrists and no true Christians As before also I trowe you affirmed Surely this grosse and wicked absurditie I could not open better then by this similitude This man hath a wodden legge an eye of glasse his nose deformed adde also if you will both his armes not naturall but framed to him of wood or what you will Ergo this is no true man Yes Sir for all this he is a true man For as much as all this concernes not the very life and being of a man though these be most vnnaturall additions and verie many The like doe I affirme of these externall corruptions in the Church Which my sentences you goe not about to refute but onely with words with bare yea and nay and no more Fr. Iohnson his aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 3. Exception YEt suffer me that I may speak and when I have spoken mocke on You say your Churches professe that the consecrating of Bishops and Priests the 6. 35. Articles of Apocrypha books and Homilies do agree with the Gospel well ynough and that your practise is thereafter Marke now what followeth herevpon The Apocrypha books to speak first of them have * Iudith 9.2.3.4 compared with Gen. 49.5.6.7 Ester Apocrypha 12.5 with Ester Canonicall 6.3 Est. Apocr 15.9.10 with Ester Canon 5.2 Ecclesiasticus 46.20 with Esa 57.2 Eccles 12.7 contradiction to the Scriptures ‡ Tob. 6.6.7.8 8.2.3 with 3.7.8 magik “ 1 Tob. 12.12.15 compared with 1 Tim. 2.5 blasphemy † Esdras 14.21.22.23 c. 2 Mach. 2 4-8 Tobit 5.11.12.13 with 12.15 1 Machab. 6.4.8.9.16 with 2 Machab. 1 13-16 and 9.1.5.7.9.28.29 fables ♣ 2 Machab. 12.44.45 14.41.42 Ecclesiastic 46.20 48.10 errors c. Therfore your Church by your owne confession professeth all these to agree with the Gospell well ynough practiseth thereafter A verie Christian professiō and practise in deed well beseeming the daughters of Babylon that mother of all abomination The like may be said of your blasphemies in the book according to which you consecrate Prelates and ordeine Priests receiving other Lordbishops Priests in office of Ministery besides Iesus Christ to whō this * 1 Cor. 12.5 Eph. 4.5.11.12 Heb. 7.23.24 1 Pet. 5.4 honour doth onely belōg And not that only but ordeining your Priests with further blasphemy when the Prelats say to every of you kneeling at their feet to be ordained Receive the holy ghosts whose sinnes thou doest forgive they are forgiven whose sins thou dost retaine they are retained These things being so to omit manie other that might be alleadged out of those and the rest of your books how can we but think as we do of the estate of your Church Would you

you for these things is such as damnatory sentence may be threatned against them take you heed Mr. Iacob that God being it not vpon your head for one if you proceed in those sinnes still as hitherto you have done And let your disciple D. B. that Apostate take heed of it for another and likewise all the rest whomsoever you meane to be of those some you speak of It is the word of God that doth and must judge both now and in the great day Ioh. 12.48 Psal 149.9 2 Chrō 19.6 1 Cor. 5.3.4.12.13 The judgement that is done according vnto it by whomsoever it be is not mans but the Lords Your hearts and consciences I leave them to the Lord. It is your constitution and practise I speake of and of the sundrie meanes of knowledge and conviction in these things vouchsafed to you which the Martyrs in former times had not This you knew I doubt not though you would not see it because you know not how to aunswer it And thus the two differences between you and the Martyrs excepted against do both of them stand firme against you But why say you nothing at all to the other differences which in the same places I noted aswell as these Can you not bring so much as colour of exception against them Why then do you not yeeld vnto them Or will you that we take your silence for a consent Also why aunswer you not that obiection when I said ‡ Pag. 67. you might thus justify the callings and estate of the Monks Fryers c. and the having of spirituall communion vvith them because divers such have ben Martyrs giving their lives for the truth they saw vvho never doubted of the lawfulnes of their callngs and estate Do you therefore hold their offices and functiōs to be lawfull Or will you deny that this hath ben the case of such If you do then I alledge for proof Eckhardus a Dominican fryer Thomas Rhedonensis a Carmelite frier Henry Voes Iohn Esch William Neel Doctor Cacalla Augustine friers Ioannes Mollius a gray frier Ierome Savonarola Dominicus Siluester c. All of them being Fryers and Monks yet Martyrs of Iesus faithfullie witnessing the truth which they saw even vnto death Act. Monum 5. edit Pag. 387. 613. 672. 799. 829. 850. 854. 4. For the fourth point it is so very playne and pregnant as you can say nothing against it but refer vs to that you have said before which I have shewed to be nothing at all to the purpose So it remaineth firme against you And so also do the reasons mentioned 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Against which you neither have said nor can say any thing to serve your turne Say but yourself and speak plainly whether that general clause Towch no vncleane thing include not both your and all other abominations of Antichrist breaking the second commandement One of your selves “ Triall of Subscriptiō Pag. 7. alledging this scripture but against the ceremonies reteined in your Church reasoneth thus from it and ānexeth that note in the Margent which I have here set downe withall † 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 This forbiddeth the vvhole corruptiō in religiō of heathen or Antichrist although principally their false doctrin What communion saith he hath the light of the word vvith the darknes of mans inventions What concord hath Christ our Saviour vvith Belial the Antichrist of Rome And vvhere greement hath the Temple of God vvhich is our selves vvith Idols of humane traditions Wherefore ♣ Rev. 18.2.3.4 come out of Babylon that is the confusion or confused vvorship and gouernment of Rome and tovvch no vncleane thing These are his words Now tell me I pray you is this Scripture and reason strong against your ceremonies And is it not much more against your confusion Leiturgie Hierarchie c. which are meerly the inventions of man even of Antichrist that man of sinne Or will you be like the Papists also in this to limit the bounds of the Scripture that it may be applied no further nor othervvise but as pleaseth you That the place of Ezechiel is directly of the breach of the Second commaundement Ezec. 43.8 is as cleare as the Sunne at noone day Beside the reasons which I alledged before those so many clauses My thres holds theirs My posts and theirs Me and them Myne holy Name with their abominations these I say so many concurring in this one verse make it without all question that he speaketh directly of ioyning their inventions with Gods ordinances in the worship of the true God Which is the direct breach of the Second not of the First cōmandement The First is directlie towching Gods inward worship as to have love trust feare him onely as God c. The Secōd is directlie of outward worship For Images and bowing downe to them “ Exo. 20.4.5 there mentioned are outward things If this distinction be not observed the first and second cōmaundement will be confounded as the Papists whom you follow would have it But if it be observed it confoundeth both you and them M. Iacob and all your vayne pretences By this also it is evident that the Idolatrie of Ahas Manasses Amon c. whereof you speak was directlie against the Second cōmādement Ahaz to give an instance in one of the grossest is said to have * 2 Chrō 28 23. sacrificed to the Gods of Damascus because he † 2 King 16 10-15 made an altar like the altar of Damascus though yet notwithstanding he offered thereon to the true God both such offerings and at such seasons as the Lord had appointed His sinne then was against the Second commandement directlie in that he made and vsed another altar then God had prescribed But your ignorance of the Scripture-phrase deceiveth you For when you read that Ahaz Manasses or others sacrificed to the Gods of the Nations you vnderstand that they worshipped some other then the true God against the First cōmandement whereas the Scripture meaneth they worshipped the true God after the … er as those nations served their Idols and so brake the Second cōmaundement You may see it in that example of Ahaz before and most plainly in Deut. 12.30.31.32 And likewise if Naaman worshipping God had bowed downe before the Idoll in Rimmons Temple but in heart honored the God of Israell he had broken the Secōd not the First cōmandement and might be said to have worshipped the Idoll Rimmon 2 King 5.17.18 The reason of all these is because God accounteth them to be served whose ordinances are observed and himself not to be had as God when his true vvorship is not had Now so must we esteeme things and so the Scripture speaketh not as men judge but as God esteemeth Minde this well Mr. Iacob for your worship of Antichrist But of these things more hereafter when wee come to speak of the third Scripture 2 King 17. in the sixt Reason following 2 King 17.

c. Esa 1.11.12.13.14.15 Zeph 1.12 1 Cor. 11.19 many things which are verifyed sometymes of the members of a true Church may not also fitly be applyed and alleadged against a false Church and yet not iustify their estate and constitution neither make for them but against them altogeather Otherwise you condemne at once all the Martyrs heretofore who vsually alleadged this † Mat. 15.9 very Scripture against the false worship of the Romish Church as as your self cannot be ignorant Yet in your learning it seemeth the Papists might well have aunswered the Martyrs againe that this Scripture was verifyed of them that were of the true visible Church and therefore made for them and against the Martyrs most notably 2 Secondly when you say This Scripture is verifyed of such as were of the true visible Church with whom Christ and his Apostles communicated tell vp whether you meane that Christ and his Apostles communicated with them in their vaine traditiōs or no. If you think they did that very Chapter sheweth the contrary besides that the whole Scriptures testify that Christ was altogeather free from sinne Mat. 15.2 which he could not have bene if he had ioyned with them in those their inventions If they did not as it is without all question then what doth this helpe you who do all of you ioyne and cōmmunicate with the fa●se worship of your Assemblyes 3 Thirdly I answer that your note is not worth the noting being nothing at all to the purpose for the question in hand For first who knoweth not that ●e the Iewish Church the doctrine publiquely professed and practised by their Law did not appoint or ratifie any of those vaine traditions but vtterlie forbid them Wheras contrarilie the verie doctrine publiquelie professed and practised by law in England appointeth and ratifieth the false worshipping of God by the inventions of men Secondlie those vaine traditions aforesaid were the personall sinnes of some particuler men in the Iewish Church not publiquelie established by law nor generallie received and practised in that Church ‡ Luk. 1.5.6 8.9.10 2.21.22.23.24.25.27.36.37.38.39.41.46 Mat. 5.17 8.4 15.2 Ioh. 10.34 Zachary and Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ himself and his Apostles with manie others kept the ordinance of God given by the hande of Moses and observed of that Church Neither did they ioyne or pollute themselves with that vaine worship aforesaid whereas in the Church of England the false worship thereof devised by men even by that man of sinne is not the personall sinne of some particular men in it but is publiquelie established by law and generallie received and practised in your assemblies of all the members thereof So then this scripture maketh nothing for you but against you most notably Now whereas in the margent you wish the Reader to marke an open contrariety comparing this and the Sixt Reason togeather we do also referre it to the Reader to iudge whether there be not even an harmonie with this and a direct confirmation of it H. IACOB his 2 Reply to the 2 Reason TO this your defence of your Second Reason I say you have aunswer in your last Exception page 57. You aske what proposition I do deny I answer I distinguish your assūptiō as being a fallacie called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 concluding a thing simply from that which is after a sort like vnto that Reason which I framed against you in pag. 57. A man hath a woodden legg an eye of glasse c. Therefore he is no true man Cranmer Ridley c. held asmuch as wee aftet mens precepts Ergo they worshipped in vaine Geneva holdeth her wafer cakes in the Supper Ergo Geneva worshippeth God in vaine Euen so your Assumption runneth Our doctrine say you Pag. 82. appoincteth Gods worship by mens precepts This is false vnlesse you meane it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after a sort not simply For our doctrine appoincteth not all Gods worship by mens precepts nor the chiefest part of it as the preaching of the Gospell of life Sacramentes and Prayers c. So that it concludeth nothing in that sence Therefore here you play the false Sophister not the Chistian and conscionable Disputer Thus you have ansvver enough to this in the ansvver to your last Exception though you vvould not see it * Pag. 82. Further I noted Secondly That this your Scripture of Mat. 15. Yeeldeth the offenders to be of a visible Church vvith vvhom Christ did cōmunicate though they held also traditions of men Therefore it affirmeth nothing against vs. Is not this true Why then do you not admit it We never denyed but this Scripture condemned our corruptions But this onely vvee affirme it disanulleth not our Churches Euen as Christ here condemneth the Ievves corrupt traditions but hee meant not there by 〈…〉 their Church Therefore all this is not against our purpose but notably for vs is before observed 1. Concerning your First ansvver in Pag. 83. I knovv this Scripture may be applyed against false vvorshippers vvhich are no true Church But it proueth not I say all them to vvhom it may bee applyed to bee no true Church Therefore you abuse it against vs Except you had first proved vs no true Church nor Christians vvhich yet is in question 2. Where in your Second answere * pag. 83. you say That this helpeth vs not except we say that Christ communicateed with the Pharisies in these traditions like as wee doe in the vaine traditions now For shame leave this folly I say againe I seke not to iustify our partaking in our traditions but I renounce it in sobrietie asmuch as you yea better then you do Yet I say this place shall admit those vvho doe in simplicitie partake of them to be true Christians neverthelesse like as it admitteth the Ievves then 3. In your Third aunsvver “ pag. 83. 84 You deny that those Iewish traditions of washing c. were with them received generally or by Law in their Church Whereto I aunsvver That they vvere generally received as Marke in his 7. Chapter and 3. verse doeth testify and that they vvere rebuked vvho vsed rhem not vvhich is sufficient to make it their Churches doctrine practize though no expresse law cōmanded it But I suppose verse 5. where they say why walkest thou not after the traditions of the Elders he meaneth the ordinances of their Forefathers which were to them as lawes besides the lawe of Moses What els is their Thalmud which is till this day euen like to the Canon lawe of Poperie and the Alcoran of Turky Some also vnderstand this of the ordinances of the Elders that is their present Gouernours and then doubtlesse it was lavv And though Zachary Elizabeth Symeon Anna Mary Ioseph Christ and his Apostles did not actually ioyne in these corruptions yet they vvere generall no doubt and by lavv never the lesse and a number of the Ievves simply vsed them and yet fell not from God

Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptiōs are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Engl●sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that † Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in Englād withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to Circūcisiō vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those Assēblies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the † 1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but

commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship † His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies stāding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Ki●g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout Englād haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and assēblies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that cōstitution by the word of

to deny it Remember it is ‡ Of this see Before Pag. 7. 8. one thing for men to say such may be accounted true Christians being considered apart from the Church constitution wherein they stand and another to say such as towching their Chur-constitution are to be accounted true Christians 3. Thirdly set the Reader mynd how vnder the terme of externall ceremonies you would still hide the impiety of your false worship and most filthy heap of your Antichristian abominations 4. Fourthly set you downe by the word of God what is fundamentall and see if I prove not the Antichristian errors among you to be such They subvert Christs office they are doctrines of Diuels Col. 2.8 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Rev. 14 9-12 2 Thes 2 3-12 marks of the Beast lyes and vnrighteousnes of Antichrist the mystery of iniquity the apostasy of the sonne of perdition c. Consider now with your self what will follow herevpon 5. Fiftly although your errors were not fundamentall yet for the Proposition it skilleth not so as your constitution be such as is there spoken of Eyther therefore must you prove your constitution to be otherwise or els both the Proposition and the Assumption stand firme against you as I have proved for both 6. For Mr Cranmer c. whose errors you oppose more vnto vs then any word of God I have aunswered alreadie and shewed how their case and yours is not alike Pag 40. 41. Besides that I doubt not but some erring in fundamentall points as divers of the Martyrs have done may yet be partakers of salvation Of which point see more in the second Exception * Pa. 44. c before and the “ The answer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reasō next Reason hereafter following 7. Lastly concerning your confident auouch in the presence of God know you not that the Fryers and Monks for their callings and all false worshippers for their service of God will auouch as much and as confidently as you do here Yea and alledge that it is no lesse then horrible blasphemy against God and his Saints to say the contrarie Is this therefore of any waight for their defence No more then for yours To turne your owne words then vpon your self you bring not a syllable or one letter in all your writing neither can you for warrant of your estate neither against that I have said to the contrary but bare begging of the controversie which is infinite often and meer sophisticall dealing everie where rife throughout your Replies Of the third Exception and first and second Reasons enough is said before in the handling of them All the Sophistry you have will not prove them sophisticall If you think good you may trie your skill once againe Yet remember how you are foyled alreadie and know that still you shall fynde the light of the truth to shine and the power thereof to prevaile against you as alway it hath and will against all adversaries whōsoever For the Samaritans whose example proveth the Proposition I noted first that most excellent truths may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe not be in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom appertaine the couenants c. This you passe by as if you saw it not Belike that your Reader might the lesse mind it Next I required proof for that you said The Samaritans beleued not in the Messias Now in stead of proof you bring vs it might be if it were so let it be howsoever c. But Ifs and And 's cannot be received for proof Speciallie when such evidence is shewed for their faith in the Messiah as may be seen in Ioh. 4.25.26.29.30.39 Where you say you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly as the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth I neither heare you prove it nor see the ordinance of your Church shew it The contrarie I have declared before and occasion there will be to speake of it againe In the meane tyme tell me whether you hold by the word professedly your faith and doctrine towching the Hierarchy the forbidding of meats and mariage and the other particulars mentioned before Pag. 63. c. Tell me also whether your Churches faith and doctrine for Christs descension into Hell be held by the word professedly among you viz That Christs soule went downe into Hell whiles his body lay in the grave I know Mr Iacob for your part you will not sticke to say your Churches doctrine is not thus For so I remember you have aunswered D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester ‡ in a treatise which you wrote against him concerning this point But how do you shew it in that book of yours H.I. his treatise of Christs suffrings descending into Hell Pag. 172. 173 Thus forsooth The Articles of the Synod holden in K. Edwards tyme have thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buried so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell For his body lay in the grave vntill the Resurrection but his spirit gone out from it was with the Spirits which were deteined in prison or in Hell and preached vnto them as the place of Peter testifyeth But your Synod holden synce in the yeare 1562. you say correcteth it and hath thus onely As Christ dyed for vs and was buried so we are to beleve also that he descended into Hell Which you translate thus that he went vnto the Dead The rest following in the Article of the former Synod your latter doth not mention Herevpon you gather thus It repeateth and ratifyeth part of the foresaid Article in expresse words but part of it euen * Not all all and every whit that conteineth this doctrine expressly of Christs going down to the Hell of the damned it cutteth of it putteth out it casteth away Therefore you conclude that the publik sentence of your Churches yea the Law of the Land confirming the same is against this opinion of Christs descending into Hell But in earnest Mr Iacob do you think this reason is good Then for your learning marke this which followeth as good as yours and all one The Letany ♣ See the Books of Cōmon Prayer Ordering Priests c. printed in K. Edw. tyme. in K. Edwards tyme ran thus From the tyranny of the Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormityes good Lord deliver vs. But your Letany synce in this Queens tyme correcteth it not mentioning this clause at all It repeateth and ratifyeth part of that Letany in expresse words but part of it even all and every whit of the clause aforsaid concerning the Bishop of Rome and his enormityes to be prayed against it cutteth of it putteth out it casteth away Look in all your books of Common prayer now published and you shall fynd it as I say Therefore by your Logick it will follow that the publik sentence of your Churches yea the Law of the Land confirming the same is against this that

any should pray to be delivered from the Bishop of Rome and all his derestable enormityes If you will have your reason go for currant then let this also go with it hand in hand Now because you would here persuade vs that the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly I will further prove vnto you that it is the faith or in deed an heresy of your Church that Christs soule went downe into Hell while his body was in the grave First the third Article of ‡ Book of Artic published 1562. your faith agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. hath this title Of the going downe of Christ into Hell Then the words of the Article follow thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buryed so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell Your translating and chaunging of the words of the Article otherwise then they do themselves as I noted before sheweth not their meaning but your perverting thereof I omit that in your aunswer to D. Bilson you set not the words of the Article of K. Edwards tyme in English at all Belike you saw it would sooner have discovered your fraude Secondly M. Nowell in his † On the Artic of the Creed He descended into Hel. Catechisme saith as much as your Article doth And this Catechisme is authorised in an whole * Syn. Lond. Anno. 1571. Synod and cōmāded to be taught throughout the Land Thirdly to put the matter out of all doubt the singing Psalmes printed with priviledge and authorised to be sung in all your Churches ♣ In the Psal beginning thus All my belief and cōfidence c. have it expressely thus And so he dyed in the flesh but quickned in the spirit His body then was buried as is our vse and right His spirit did after this descend into the lower parts To them that long in darknes were the true light of their harts Note also that the title of this Psalme is The 12. Articles of Christian faith Is not this then your Churches expresse faith and doctrine Yea is not that also expressed here which in the Article in K. Edwards tyme was mentioned How badly then and sophistically do you plead about your Churches faith and ordinance herein Towching which I meane the ordinance of your Church you may see D. Bilson hath the better of you though otherwise by the word of God it is plaine he hath the worse and standeth in a detestable error both against all proportion of faith and against the expresse evidence of these Scriptures Luk. 23.46 with Psal 31.5 Ioh. 19.30 Luk. 23.43 with 2 Cor. 12.2.4 Rev. 2.7 3.21 Heb. 12.23 Col. 2.14.15 Eph. 4.8.9.10 1 Pet. 3.18.19.20 2 Cor. 13.4 Psal 16.8.9.10.11 with Gen. 5.24 37.35 2 King 2.1.11 Eccles 12.7 Act. 7.59 Luk. 16.26 But tell me now Mr Iacob what power of Christ your Church hath and in whose hands it is to excommunicate D. Bilson for teaching and mainteining this or any other false doctrine a mong you Your self are a member of that Church together with him You haue written against him and by the word of God convinced him He notwithstanding persisteth and leaveneth others as much as he can Now if you be the Church of Christ as you would beare vs in hand why do you not proceed with him by the † Mat. 18.17 1 Cor. 5.4.5.6.7.11.12.13 rule and power of Christ Or if your Church haue not that power of Christ as all may see why do you not confesse it to be none of Christs Even by this then if you note it well you may perceive what your Churches faith and ordinance is Not to speak here of other most erroneous doctrines and filthy abominations mainteined among you In the third place I proved the Samaritans sinne to be against the second commaundement inasmuch as worshipping the true God they did it in and by the Images they framed Now your aunswer is that they worshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrificed to them and accompted them to be Gods aswell as the God of Israel and so brake the first commaundement And to prove this assertion of yours true and myne false you alledge 2 King 17.29.30.31 Where it is said Every nation made their Gods c. But are you no better divine then so Mr Iacob Are you a teacher in this light of the Gospell and vnderstand not yet this phrase of Scripture Know you not that the Lord “ accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances Images Altars places Ministeryes rites ceremonies c. are kept and observed though it be for his worship and service Or mynd you not that † 2 King 17.29.30.31 these and the like speaches in the Scripture are sacramentall “ Deut. 12.30.31 Iudg. 17. chap. 2 King 16 10-16 with 2 Chron. 28.23 2 King 17.7.8 c. Hos 2.16 Ezec. 14.3.4.5 c. 20.39.40 Exo. 32.4.5 When the ‡ Exod. 32.4 Iewes and ♣ 1 King 12.28 Ieroboam said of their golden calves These be thy Gods ô Israell which brought thee out of the Land of Egypt Do you think they meant those golden Idols now made by them selves were in deed the God of Israell that brought them out of Egypt Or do you not thus vnderstand it that they made and vsed those only for signes and representations of that God That this was their purpose appeareth both by the * occasion of making them and by their ‡ Exod. 32.4 vse of them being made wheras still they intended their feasts and worship before them and by them to be to Iehovah the true God * Exod. 32.1 1 King 12.26.27.28 ‡ Exod. 32.4 Exod. 32.5 1 King 12.28.32.33 with Amos. 4.4.5 5.22.23 8.14 Micah 6.6.7 The same may be seen in Michahs example of mount Ephraim and in his mother Iudg. 17. In her that when she made a graven Image even then she prayed to Iehovah the true God and dedicated to him the silver whereof she made that Image Iudg. 17.2.3.4 † Iudg. 17.5.10 In Michah himself that he ‡ Exod. 32.4 made an Ephod and Teraphim and had an house of Gods and took first one of his owne sonnes then a Levite for his Priest Yet by all these intended the worship onelie of the true God As appeareth both by his owne speach Iudg. 17.13 when he † said Now I know that the Lord Iehovah not Idols will be good vnto me seeing I haue a Levite to my Priest and by the historie following Iudg. 18.5.6 Yea of the Samaritans themselves of whom the question is when they had made their Gods and put them in the houses of the hy places the Scripture here cited by your self saith Thus they feared Iehovah the Lord and appointed out Priests c. 2 King 17.32 The words then when it is said they made Gods c. are not literallie to be taken but sacramentallie attributing that in

be here in the field of this world Mat. 13.19.24.37.38.41.43.52 compared with Gen. 28.17 1 Cor. 3.16.17 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Ephes 2.21.22 Mat. 8.12 16.18.19.28 21.43 22.12.13.14 25.1 c. Luk. 8.1 11.20 13.18 17.20 ●1 Ioh 1.49.51 Act. 1.3 1 Tim. 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.5 2. Tim. 2.20.21 3.5 And further if Christs meaning were that men should here still deare and partake with the knowen wicked and prophane notwithstanding that their estate then by this it would follow that there should neyther be vse of Excōmunication in the Church nor punishment of malefactors in the Common-wealth Which could not but be the destruction of both And is directlie contrary to the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles in other Scriptures As namelie in Mat. 18.17.18 and 26.52 Rom. 13.4 1 Cor. 5. chap. 1 Tim. 1.20 Finally this their doctrine aforsaid is against the expresse cōmaundement of God the heavenly order of Christ in his Church and the continuall practise of the Prophets Apostles and faithfull in all ages For which see these Scriptures Gen. 17.14 and 19 12-16 Lev. 18.29.30 and 20 22-26 Numb 16 23-26 Ezra 6.21 9.14 Esa 8.12.18 and .44.5 52.11 Ier. 15.19 Ezeh 22.26 zach 2.7 8.21 22.23 Mal. 3.16.17.18 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18 Act 2.40.41.47 and 5.28.29 and 17.4.7.34 and 19.9 Rom. 16.17 1 Cor. 1.26.27 and 5 4-7 2 Cor. 6.17 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 2 Ioh. vers 6.10 11. Iud. vers 3.21.22.23 Rev. 2. 3. chap. 14.9.12 17.14 18.4 20.4 5. That the people may tolerate ioine with open iniquitie in the Church vntill by the Magistrate it be redressed Which doctrine is contrarie to these Scriptures 2 Cor. 10.4.5 Mat. 28.20 Act. 2.40 3.23 4.19 9.26 19.9 1 Tim. 5.22 Deu. 5.32 12.32 6. That the gifts of interpretation and application of the Scriptures are a sufficient and lawfull calling to the Ministery c Which doctrine is both false and Anabaptisticall contrarie to the Scriptures Heb. 5.4 Rom. 12.6.7.8 Levit. 22.25 Ezech. 44.8.9 c Numb 1.51 3.10.38 16.40 18.2.3.4 Act. 1.20.26 13.2.3 14.23 7. That the Church may yeeld obedience vnto other Lawes Canons traditions officers and offices then God hath prescribed in his Covenant Which doctrine is contrarie to Gen. 49.10 Mat. 6.24 Iohn 10.4.5 Rev. 14.4 22.18.19 Heb. 3.1 c. 8. That the Church may read other mens words vpon a book and offer them vp to God as their owne prayers and sacrifices in the publique Assemblies Which doctrine is contrarie to the scriptures Esay 29.13.14 Rom. 8.26 1 Cor. 14.15 Mat. 6.6.9 15.9 Mar. 7.7 Exod. 30.9 with Psal 141.2 Rev. 5.8 8.3.4 Iud. vers 20. Ephes 4.7.8 6.18 1 Pet. 2.5 9. That it is lawfull to ioine with the Ministery of dumb and Idoll Priests and to receive the Sacraments at their handes Which doctrine is contrary to Mat. 15.14 7.15 24.24.25 Esa 56.10 Iohn 10.1.5 Num. 16.5.9.24.26.39.40 c. 1 Tim. 3.2 6.5 2 Iohn vers 6.11 10. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to ceasse preaching and forsake his flock at the Commaundement of the Lord Bishops Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Cor. 9 16. Esay 62.1.6.7 Ier. 48.10 Zach. 11.17 Iohn 10.11.12.13 Act. 4.18.19.20 5.29 Amos 7.12.13.14.15 2 Tim. 4.2 11. That the Church of Christ hath not alwayes power to binde and loose to receive in and to cast out by the Keyes of his Kingdome Which doctrine is contrarie to Mat. 18.17.18 Psal 149.9 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12 Num. 5.2.3 12. That it is lawfull for the people of God to heare notorious false Prophetes in their Ministery Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 18.15 Mat. 17.5 7.15 2 Iohn vers 10 11. 1 Cor. 10.18 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 18.4 Iohn 10.5 13. That it is the Church and house of God the body and kingdome of Christ where he reigneth not by his own Ordinances Officers but the highest Ecclesiasticall authoritie is in the handes of strange Lordes Antichristian Prelates who also gouerne by Romish Cannons and not according to the lawes of Christs Testament Which doctrine and practise is condemned by Luke 19.14.27 Iohn 15.14 Rom. 6.16 Luke 22.25 26. 1 Pet. 5.3 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Iohn 3.35.36 Rev. 9.3 14.9.10.11 19.14.15.19 14. That there may be a prescript Leiturgy and set forme of service in the Church framed by man Which doctrine is contrarie to Deut. 5.8 Esa 29.13.14 Mat. 15.9 Mar. 7.6.7 Gal. 3.15 Iohn 4.24 Rom. 8.26.27 Ephes 4.7.8 Col. 2.23 15. That an Antichristian Prelate notwithstanding his dignitie as it is called spirituall may be a Civill Magistrate and obeyed of the people as their lawfull governour Which doctrine is contrarie to Rom. 13.1 c. Mat. 20.25.26 Mar. 10.42.43 Luke 22.25.26 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 17.14.16.18 16. That men may giue the titles of Christ Iesus to these sonnes of men his mortall enemies to call them their Archbishops Lordbishops Fathers Lords c. Which doctrine is contrarie to 1 Pet. 5.3.4 with 2.25 Mat. 23.8.9.10 Esa 42.8 and 48.11 Prov. 17.15 and 24.24 Esay 5.20 2 Cor. 6.14.17 17. That it is lawfull for a Minister of Christ to be mainteyned in his ministery by Iewish and Popish tythes Chrisomes offerings c. Which doctrine is contrarie to Heb. 7.12 1 Cor. 9.13.14 1 Thes 5.12.13 Pro. 27.26.27 Phil. 4.10.18 Rom. 15.27 Gal. 6.6 These are the points of false doctrine mentioned * before in the proof of this Reason Pag. 155. Which you have left altogeather vnanswered as also your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. And thus are you driven againe and againe whether you will or not to yeeld the cause That which you adde in the next place of your not wholy denying the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof is answered before in the second Exception and sixt and seaventh Reasons Where you say you are not herein like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Iewes Act. 13.14 and 16.3 and 21.23.24.26 and 3.1 you say nothing to any purpose For what though you be not in all respects like those Iewes Are you not therefore to be separated from So in deed you would conclude But then tell vs if Corah Dathan Abiram the Apostate Iewes vnder Ieroboā the corinthian infidels Papists c. might not alledge some particular exceptiō wherein they were not like to those Iewes Act. 19. Might not therefore separation be made from these The Scripture teacheth otherwise Num. 16.25.26 2 Chron. 11.14 2 Cor. 6.17 Rev. 18.4 Secondlie consider the case here spoken of Act. 19.9 and compare it with your estate and practise and see if there be not now as great and iust cause to separate from you as was then from them The words are these When some were hardned and disobeyed speaking evill of that way before the multitude Paul departing from them separated the disciples Act.

far separate from vs. Now you hold otherwise then the truth in all the particulars † before rehearsed towching your Prelacy Priesthood Sacraments Book of common prayer Pag. 63. c. confusion of people c. Thus far therefore you graunt we may and ought to separate from you And further we do not at all For there is not anie truth you hold which we also hold not with you So then in expresse words you yeeld vs the cause And yet further you yeeld it againe in that you do not defend by the Scripture your Hierarchy worship doctrines Canons Articles Iniunctions c. received and ioined vnto by all in your Church How absurd then and vngodlie is your denyall of so manifest a truth And how distempered is your brayne that can not perceive so plaine a contradiction with your self Your two fould sence of the Apostles words is a silly fiction of your owne head without anie ground or proof at all If you will have vs think otherwise bring warrant for the particulars of your distinction from the book of God But I pittie you Mr Iacob For I see you are brought to a low ebbe Who knowes not that this is the very last refuge of all ennemyes of the truth when they are pressed with evidence of Scripture so as they can not avoid it then to faine distinctions and to cast about for the sence as if that were hard and obscure which in deed is most plaine and easy Look in Bellarmine Bilson Whitgift Bridges and whosoever els have written against the truth if their dealing be not such This then doth not aunswer the Argument but proveth it rather to be vnaunswerable Tim. 6.5 As for the words The Apostle saying from such separate thy self if now you would know from whom Himself telleth it as plaine as may be If any man teach otherwise and consent not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines c. from such separate thy self vers 3. But such is your case in particular As hath ben proved in your Prelacy and the other abominations of Antichrist yet taught and mainteyned among you Therefore are we bound by this rule of the Apostle to separate our selves from you Els should we aunswer it to God at that day Of your continuall vayne distinctions of fundamentally wholy presumptuously simply c. ynough is said alreadie in the handling of the for mer Reasons As also of Mr Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs Whom here you set before vs againe as coleworts not twise but ten tymes sodden Leave this vsage of them Mr Iacob for they have left you long synce See before Pag. 40.41 Next you tell vs we may ioyne with you and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them Prove this and you say somewhat But I doubt we shall find you as slow in proving as you are rash in speaking Mind but these particulars following which I will name for example Can we receive your Priesthood from the Prelates or execute it vnder them Can we ioyne to your Service book or anie part of your worship and Ministery Can we receive the word or Sacraments from your Ministers in that constitution Can we remaine members of your confused Assemblyes Can we stand subiect to your Prelates and their Courts Canons censures c. Can we I say do these or anie of them and yet towch no part of your ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give allowance vnto them In your next Reply Mr Iacob declare vs this riddle if you can And in the meane tyme I will attribute it to your distempered conceit that you do thus every foot forget and contradict your self and yet discerne it not But what will you say too if such as ioyne with you in anie part of your worship suppose it be the best become thereby partakers of your whole worship and constitution even of the worst things that are among you therein To make it plaine and certaine vnto you mynd these proofs In Israell † 1 Cor. 10.18 they that did eate of the sacrifices as “ 2 Sam. 1.4.5 the people might were thereby partakers of the whole Iewish religion yea even of the altar Vnto which yet they might not come at all but the Priest onelie Lev. 1. chap. c. Numb 18.7 Luc. 1.9.10 In Corinth the Christians that abhorred Idols and Idolatry yet when after the sacrifices were offred * 1 Cor. 10 14-22 8.4.10 they sate but in the Idol Temples to eat of the meats that had ben sacrificed which in † 1 Cor. 10.25.26.27 other places they might have done became thereby partakers of the whole Idolatrous wprship though they were not present at it but as they thought abhorred it In like maner they which connnunicate in anie part of your worship become thereby partakers and guiltie of the whole though it may be neither you nor they so think So false it is which here you give out that we may ioine with some of your worship and Ministery and yet towch no part of your Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to give them allowance For the Papists to omit that you aunswer not what I obiected you see and graunt readily that they are no true Christians but very Antichrists c. Yet for your selves though your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people false doctrines c. be meerlie Popish and Antichristian you will not see and acknowledge it Take heed least when you see yet you wink with your eyes and though you vnderstand yet you harden your heart because you will not be converted and healed Esa 6.9.10 Act. 28.26.27 For the question between vs let the Reader iudge how I have proved it and how you have quitted your self and your Churches Where you say the points of false doctrine in your Church are most falsly laid to your charge all may see here againe you have an hard forehead to deny anie thing and yet are so sottish you can prove nothing But you say you list not meddle with them at this present I easily beleev you They are so pregnant against you as it is no marvell if you have no list to do it Otherwise you shew list ynough to medle with anie thing that you think may cary any show against vs. But you must mynd the point is not what you list but what you ought to meddle withall You have taken vpon you the defence of your Churches in the estate wherein now they stand Therefore must you aunswer aswell for the false doctrines as for the true mainteined in your Church Els would the Papists iustify their case against you well ynough For this cause then must you aunswer aswell for your Book of cōmon prayer and other your books of Articles Canons Iniunctions c. as for that book of Articles which was published in the yeare 1562. For they conteine the doctrine and

constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward

being observed and Mr Iacob desired to resolve them in his next I will now proceed to shew the weaknes and insufficiency of his present pretended Defence Where for more evidence of the truth I will first set downe the Reasons heretofore alledged against his Cōparisō and then aunswer his cavils now brought against them Chap 2. The first Reason against Mr Iacobs Comparison as it was first propounded Fran. Iohnson INfidels Idolaters prophane and godles persons may marry togeather with consent and choise of each other notwithstanding their prophanenes And their marriage is therein lawfull But it standeth not so with choise of Ministers in the Church For prophane godles persons such as these Assemblies consist of being never rightlie gathered togeather according to Gods ordinance remaining in subiection and bondage to their false Antichristian Offices and Courts consisting of all sorts of people c. are not capable of chusing and ioyning to a true Minister in this estate as Infidels and such like may marry in their estate Therefore the comparison holdeth not neyther is such choise of a Minister by such people lawfull H. Iacob his Reply THe strength of this Reason standeth in these last words But these Assemblies consist of such people 1. prophane godles persons 2. neuer rightly gathered together according to Gods ordinance 3. remayning in subiection and bondage to their false and Antichristian officers courts Ergo c. These three accusations availe nothing at all The first Accusation is from our question Accusatiō 1. for we speake of a Christian people but you of assemblies consisting of prophane and godles persons If you say our assemblies all wholy are such That is false If you say some are Of them we speake not If you say in all every one of our assemblies there are some yea many open prophane and godles persons 1. It is too bold a saying and without knowledge to speak so of all 2. If it were true yet it were false to say our assemblies consist of such or to thinke that whole companies of Christians by such commixtures are made vnholy prophane and godles which is contrary to these scriptures Mat. 23.2.3 Luke 2.21.22 1.6 Act. 21.23.26 1 Sam. 2.17 cap. 1. vers 3.9 Rev. 2.20.21 3.1.4 1 Cor. 3.3 Gal. 3.1.2 4.11.16 5.4.9 The second Accusation that our assemblies were neuer rightly gathered togeather at the first according to Gods ordinance I deny it Accusatiō 2 especially towching many famous Congregations in the Land where the GOSpell was not vnknowen before the Queenes commaundement came to vrge them to receive this doctrine And if the maner of receiving it then in those hard and doubtfull tymes and hazardous beginnings were not so perfect nor so exact as should haue ben yet we may see by the example of “ 2 Chro. 30.17.18 19.20 Hezechias and * 2 Chr. 33.15.16.17 Manasses and † Zepha 1.4.5 3.1 Ier. 3.6 c. 4.1 c. 5.1 c. Iosias reformations That God imputeth it not to such godly and zealous restorers the pillers and ground of the trueth in those dayes If you say the vntaught people then suddenly receiving the Gospell by cōmandement not by hearing could not beleeve at the first though they professed and therefore at the first were no true Christians nor Churches I aunswer 1. Though many received the Gospell for the commandements sake yet who can say That now they all generally wanted all knowledge and all faith The word then having ben in many places taught very many bookes scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations vsed and the blood of the Martyrs having preached so loud and so lately before 2. It was not so sudden There was ” From Nouember the 17. till Midsomer following more then halfe a yeare for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came So that it can not be counted meer force and compulsion that at the beginning of our Queenes reigne brought vs to the truth 3. I would know You condemne not I hope all reformation commanded and compelled by the Magistrate 2 Chron. 34.32.33 33.16 15.13 .. Seeing therefore the assemblies thus openly and aduisedly submitted to the proclaimed truth who seeth not but they cōfessed therein their former errors and professed their present faith and vndertooke a new life from that which before they led though happely not so formallie nor so perfectlie as were to have ben wished But they received all togeather Papists Atheistes ignorant men and all dissolute livers Obiection into one communion and fellowship Indeed all who after this aduizement and notice taken submitted to and receyved this doctrine Answer these were all receyued in And therefore no open professed Papistes Athistes nor other Heretikes As for ignorant men it is not possible but many will scape among the rest in so great so generall reformation of a publike state And so questionles it was in Hezechias Manasses Iosias reformation 2. Chron. which we noted before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession and a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakly and corruptly very like euen to your owne receiuing in to your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation have received many * This particular Mr Iacob hath not printed but it was in his written copy which I aunswered bankrupts knowen bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention and bitter strife 1 Cor. 3..3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures do not disanull a Church gathered and settled as appeareth above in the scriptures quoted against the First Accusation Mat. 23. Luke 2 c. Therefore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning The Third Accusation is Our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian Officers Accusatiō 3. c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God not of like consequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say all sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ nor deprive vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward Church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the † 1 Cor. 15 2.3.4 Rom. 1.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11.12.13.14 foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved Such were the sinnes of the Iewish Church and estate in Christs

doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull Euē so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vve● plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is cōtrary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the Sacramēts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VV●i●g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth

‡ Rev. 18.1.2.3.4.11 c 17.1.2.3.4.5 14.8.9.10.11 the spirituall Babylon notwithstanding any truthes she holdeth yet is so vnsanctifyed and abominable as shee is become a cage of all vncleane and hatefull birdes and that all her children Marchants that will not depart out of her shall receive of her plagues and damnation and drink of the vvine of Gods vvrath and be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy Angells and before the Lamb for evermore Loe here your fearfull estate which you notwithstanding will needes accompt holy and acceptable before God H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 5. Reason IN this your defence of your Fifth Reason you mislike that I call it an absurd comparison Where you affirme that the golden vessels of the Iewes were as available to sanctify the Babilonians as the truthes of the Gospell which wee hold are to sanctify vs. In deed your ovvne vvordes be holden and received in the spirituall Babylon By which termes you meane vs of England I trow But marke sir Is not this grosse Sophistry againe Is not this childish vanity open beggerie and craving of that which is the whole question that is That our Churches are spirituall Babylon and as deepely infected in Babylonish impietie as those old Caldeans If they were so infected I graunt in deed your Reason would follow But seeing it is the question and seing we professe our selves true Christians by those truths of the Gospell which wee hold and as by Gods grace wee are in deed Say I not well that this is an absurd Comparison Yes Maister Iohnson it is a most † To match those outvard vessells of no sanctity of themselves with our inward doctrines of salvation impious absurd and senceles comparison and void of common Reason And it inwrappeth wrappeth Maister Cranmer Maister Ridley c. within the same iniurious you irreligious consequence likewise All that you have of allusions and alluding betweene the Typicall and spirituall Babylon are meere delusions and vaine cavils Prove vs first to be spirituall Babylon Or els you fight with your shadow So that still I say those Scriptures quoted of Dan. 5. c. As also all the rest here packed togeather they are miserably and desperately abused according as I rightly referred you to my censure to your First Reason which for all your wordes you have not refuted The very same I say of your other two scriptures towards the end Prov 9.17 c. Rev. 18.1 c. As for Ezech. 43.8 I answered it before † Pag. 71. in your First Reason Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 5. Reason HAve you said any thing here first Mr Iacob but denyed the Conclusion If you have shew it If not confesse your owne childish vanity and open beggery c. For which the name of Sophistry is to good though otherwise it be bad ynough and the cognisance of all your Replies Now that this you say is but the denyal of the Conclusion thus I shew That which I conclude towching your Churches is this that they are not constitute according to the ordināce of Christ but according to the apostasy of Antichrist that is that your Churches in their estate are spirituall Babylon This I say is that which I have concluded heretofore and still do throughout my Reasons Exceptions Aunswers and now of purpose have I set it downe at the beginning of this treatise Pag. 3. Your denying of this then what is it els but the denyall of the Conclusion But this now being proved you are driven nill ye will ye plainely to graunt that in deed my Reason will follow Well Mr Iacob though it were long first yet thus you yeeld now at length Better late thrive then never Abide but by this and I trow you will not now any longer stand member or Minister of your Assemblies in that estate neyther condemne vs any more for separating from them Next howsoever it were for the question between vs yet the Proposition of the Comparison cannot but be true which in your first Reply you said was most false and now you would passe by because you can say nothing against it Yet mynd Mr Iacob that in denying it you did there agayne give the lye to the holy Ghost whose doctrine it is in these Scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 Levit. 23. chap. Prov. 9.17.18 By all this then you may see it is your owne dealing that is most impious absurd sencelesse c. thus to strive as you have done against so cleare a truth and everie where in your Replyes to fight against God and his word Which even here againe you cease not to do whiles you call such allusions and comparisons as the Scripture vseth between the typicall and spirituall Babylon meer delusions and vayne cavils How I matched together on the one hand the vessells of the Lords Temple and the truthes of the Gospell on the other The Caldean and spirituall Babylon may be seen in my former aunswer Which may suffice for any thing you say here both your marginall note and all the rest I could tell you further if it needed that Babel in English is confusion And that such is the estate of your Church even a confusion of all sorts of people good and bad Besides that your tounges are divided and your language confounded as it was in * Gen. 11.9 Babel of old whiles the Prelates the Reformists your self and the like as Neuters between both speak some one thing some another towching your Hierarchy worship Canons c. some † The Prel Formal that they are of God and to be kept and obeyed for conscience sake some ‡ The Sekers of Reform that they are of Antichrist and to be removed and witnessed against vnto death though every haire of the head were a life some ♣ Mr Iacob the like that they are neyther of God neyther of Antichrist simply fundamentally indifferently c. And thus as men confounded in your selves by the just judgement of God your toungues are divided you know not your selves what to make and account of these things or one of another I could also put you in mind that as the Caldean Babylon was so the spirituall Babylon is notorious for false worship towards God and for persecution of his people keping them in thraldome and captivity See M. Iacob● Repl. before And that now the estate of your Church is such viz worshipping God after a false maner never prescribed by himself kept in subiection to your Antichristian Prelats and persecuting the people of God by prisonment exile death c. it is so evident as when you are called vpon to shew warrāt for these among you your vsuall aunswer is no other but after this sort * Pag. 37. Let the State which mainteyneth these things aunswer for them † Pag. 70. For my part I never thought other but our Church corruptions are against the Secōd

erected visible Idols 1 Kin. 12.28 and very filthy ones even calves and brute beasts The same you might alledge of the Israelites with Aaron Exod. 32.4 whose sinne notwithstanding was directlie against the Second commandement as you confesse yours also is Besides Mr Iacob have not you and your Church too your visible Idols What els I pray you are your Service book your books of Canons and Homilies your Book of ordering Priests and Prelates taken out of the Popes pontificall your Idoll-shepheards Zach. 11.17 even the Prelates and Priests themselves such as to whom for any sound knowledge they have in themselves or good instruction they give or receive of others may fitly be applied that saying of the Prophet concerning Idols They have a mouth and speak not they have eyes and see not Psal 115.5.6 they have eares and heare not c. Where in the next place to lessen your sinne in respect of Ieroboās you say you professe your Ecclesiasticall orders to be but indifferent things for order and comelines onely how absurd againe and shameles is your pretence Do you in deed professe that your Book of common prayer with the other aforsaid are but indifferēt things for order and comelines only If so then are they not the true worship and service of God commāded in his word to be observed of his Church For that is not an indifferent thing but straitlie enjoined to be kept without spot or chaunge vntill the appearing of our Lord Iesus Exod. 20.4.5.6 1 Tim. 6.13.14 Col. 2.8.22.23 Rev. 22.18.19 Againe do you professe the confusion of all maner people in the body of your Church to be an indifferent thing for order and comelines onely If so then you might aswell tell vs you professe darkenes to be light disorder and confusion to be order and comelines c. Or do you professe that your Archbishops and other Prelates and Priests with their offices and callings taken out of the cup of Babylon your forbidding of meats and mariage called by the Apostle doctrines of Divels your retaining the Apocrypha Books in your publik worship Pag 63. c which have many lyes and great blasphemy in them Do you I say professe that these with the rest of your abominations ‡ before rehearsed are but indifferent things onely for order and comelines And is this in deed the profession of your generall State as ‡ here you note in the margent Then sure you are not far behind Ieroboam Pag. 110. if not far worse in some respects And by this it is evident to note it by the way that your generall State is conuinced of great impietie inasmuch as howsoever it stood for the controversy otherwise yet none can be so grosse as to deny but thus far you are convinced that these are not indifferent things c. You had need also look well about you what to aunswer for speaking in such maner of your generall State Now for Ieroboam what will you say if he also held this as the chief and mayne thing ♣ that the true God who is infinite and every where present be worshipped but whether at Ierusalem or at Dan Ioseph Antiq Iud. lib. 8. cap. 3. whether in Salomons Temple or at the Calves which he had now made whether by the Levites or by others consecrated to that service c. that these and the like he accounted and vsed as indifferent things as might seem best to serve for the opportunity of their dwelling for that estate c. See Iosephus Antiquityes if he do not testify thus much concerning him affirming further that by these meanes he deceyved the people and drew them from the true worship of God which in the end was the cause of their vtter ruine Lo here the fruit and yssue of such pretences Further you alledge 2 Chron. 11.15 Where Ieroboam is said to appoint Priests for the high places and for Divels and for the Calves he had made So have you also appointed Priests such as God never ordeined and that for your high places and Calves that is for your Idols Temples and Service the places and maner of your publik worship to this day Of which three points viz your Priesthood Idoll-temples A treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England and false worship I have written in another treatise to which I refer you Where it is said Ieroboā appointed Priests for Divels you are to know if already you do not that this is spoken mystically in respect of Gods account and as it was in deed not that Ieroboam and the people did so think and esteem it themselves And that you may have lesse preiudice of this which I say heare it of Peter Martyr who writeth thus of it Ieroboam and his complices said they worshipped not the Calves but Iehovah in that figure visible signe but the Scripture in the Chronicles witnesseth their imagination to be frustrate because in deed they did that service not to Iehovah but to Divels P. M. Lo. com p. 1130. Epist ad Eccles peregrin Lond. I will also help you to vnderstand this point by a like example to which I suppose you will yeeld The Papists in Gods account are worshippers of Divels Rev. 9.20 Yet in their owne judgement they do not so but pretend to worship God himself Even so it was with Ieroboam Further for the more clearing of this matter see what it is in deed thus to worship Divels And heare it of Mr Iunius whose judgement I know in this case you will judge lesse partiall He in his notes vpon Lev. 17.7 saith thus Men sacrifice to Divels if they sacrifice eyther in other place or after other rite and maner then the Lord hath prescribed See Deut. 32.17 1 Cor. 10.20 And this he sheweth was the sinne of the Iewes both in Egypt and in the wildernes first by Exod. 32. chapter then by ‡ Lev. 17.7 this verse where the word hereafter or no more is vsed and lastly by Stephens testimony Act. 7.42 Ieroboam then worshipped Divels not in his owne purpose and judgement but in Gods account because his worship of God was in other place and after other maner then the Lord had apppointed Now seing you graunt this here to be true of Ieroboam how will you denie it either for the Papists from whom you have borrowed your worship or for your selves the children of their fornications And that you may see it is a thing needfull to be mynded in your Church-constitution note for your selves that * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 the erroneous doctrines of Antichrist are by the Lord accounted and in the Scripture called doctrines of Divels † Rev. 9.20 the worship of Antichrist the worship of Divels ♣ Rev. 16.13.14 the Ministers of Antichrist the spirits of Divels ‡ Rev. 18.2 the confusion of all prophane people and abomination in the body of Antichrists Church and religion the habitation of Divels c.

Either therefore you must approve your Church-constitution to be such as it reteineth not the erroneous doctrines worship Ministery and confusion of people brought in by Antichrist but the truth way of Christ prescribed to his Church or els you see by evidence of Scripture how like your case is to Ieroboams also in this respect Not that you do so esteem it any more then he did but that God doth so account of you and of all such Churches whose constitution is to worship him otherwise then himself hath ordeined howsoever your devices may resēble his ordinances Pag. 105. as * you confesse Ieroboams also did 1 King 12.32 33. Amos. 4.4.5 5.21.22 23. So you confesse ynough against your self Next you alledge the examples of Ahab Ahaziah the Iewes vnder Ahaz Manasses and Amon to whom the Israelites were like in Idolatry also the Ten tribes and finally the Samaritans themselves These examples and the Scriptures cited about them speak of Baall and like Idols and their Altars houses Priests c. Now I have proved ‡ before that in and by these Idols and their appurtenances Pag. 117. c. they intended the worship of the Lord God himself And yet further by these testimonyes of Scripture it is most plaine viz. Hos 2 16. Micah 6.6.7 1 King 21.28.29 and 22.12.24 Exod. 32.1.4.5 Iudg. 17.2.3.5.13 and 18.5.6.17.18.19.20 Amos. 5 21.22.23 Yea in the Scriptures which ‡ here your self alledge they are said to worship after the fashion of the Heathen though it was to the true God because they sacrificed in their hy places Pag. 110. or on the Altars and before the Idols eyther of the Heathen or their owne set vp for the representation and service of God Finally none of these Scriptures do shew that the Samaritans did so worship the Idols of the Heathen as accounting them to be in deed Gods aswell as the God of Israell Which is your assertion So it is your self Mr Iacob that are cleane gone Your perventing of my words I omit But now what will you say if the case of the very Pagans Idolatry be not so cleare as you take it for the worshipping of the Idols themselves and esteeming them to be so many severall Gods Augustine saith the Pagan Doctors defend their many Gods to be but * August de Civit. Dei lib. 4. cap. 11. one and the same Iupiter that is one God of whom the ♣ Poet sayth He is throughout all the earth the sea and the heaven Virgil. 4. Geo Againe he testifyes that they themselves did thus aunswer him ‡ Aug. Ibid. cap. 24. What Should we beleev that our forefathers were so exceding foolish as to think Bacchus Ceres Pan and the like were Gods Nay they beleeved onely one God whose name because they knew not therefore did they honour his gifts functios vnder divers names c. Plato a Pagan himself in one of his Epistles saith thus Hereby you shall know whether I write in good earnest Plato Epist. 13. ad Dion or not If in earnest I begin my letters with the onely one God If otherwise with many Yea Phocylides an heathen Poet could say Phocylides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 There is but onely one God wise powerfull and very happy And Epictetus a Stoick thus It is before all things to be learned that there is but one God that he ruleth all things Epictetus apud Arriā that he provideth for all that whatsoever we do speak or think nothing can be hid from him that we should worship him as our Creator and Father and the onely authour of our felicity And that if vve call vpon God aright vvee shal be advertised of the best things by his Angels at his cōmaundement Calvin also saith the prophane men thought not to dravv the onely God frō his heavenly throne vvhen they feyned to themselves many Gods Calv. in Hos 2.17 but reserving a supreme Godhead over all they vvould have Patrones vvhom to vse for obteyning grace and favour of the most high God And by Plato himself it appeareth they took the Angels for such whom he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plato in Epinom e● in Cratylo Spirits and therefore thought they were to be honoured 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as being the meanes of “ or prayse-worthy prosperous intercession or proceding Whom therefore they vsed as helps for better accesse vnto God as now do the Papists their many intercessors who yet hold there is but one God Thus they thought of God and of his gifts works Angels c. Then for the Pagans vse of their Idols or Images Calvin writing against such men as in excuse of their Idolatry pretend Calv. Inst. lib 1. ca. 11. se 9. 1● they account not the Images to be Gods sheweth that neither did the Ievves think their Calfe to be God nor the Heathen their Images but that as the Papists novv so the Heathen and Ievves then vvere persvvaded they vvorshipped God in and by those Images Thus writeth Calvin Then which what can be more full and pregnant against you And Plutarch recordeth that Numa Pompilius a Pagan forbad the Romanes to think that Gods Image had eyther the likenes of Man or the forme of any creature Plutar. in vita Numae Neither vvas there before vvith them saith he any Image or representation of God eyther painted or fayned but in the first hundred and seventy yeares they built in deed Temples and erected holy Chappels but consecrated no Image at all Even as if it vvere detestable to resemble better things to vvorse and because God can not othervvise be perceived but in the mynd and vnderstāding And yet further Plutarch also in an other place hath to this effect that the Sunne Plutar. de Isid et Osyrid the Moone the Heaven c. are not to be vvorshipped that they in deed are but looking glasses vvherein may be seen the vvorkmanship of God that adorneth the vvhole vvorld And that the vvorld is no other thing but his Temple Yea moreover towching both these points now treated of that the severall nations have not their severall Gods so as vve should think the Grecians have theirs the Barbarians theirs the Northerne people theirs the Southerne theirs But like as the Sunne the Moone the Heaven the Earth the Sea are common to all yet are called by severall names of severall people so likevvise that one divine Spirit which framed this whole world vvhose providence is over it all yet hath severall honours and severall names attributed vnto him according to the lawes of several natiōs c. Behold then what the Pagans themselves do testify Albeit I neither doubt nor deny but some among them speciallie in later tymes were far more grosse then others even as now we may see in the Papists a great difference among themselves both for their judgement and practise in their Idolatry Yet notwithstanding by the testimonies aforsaid you