private writings are more effectuall and sufficient to perswade the world of their innocent then the Declaration of the Parliament A.S. For me I believe and take it for certain that the publike Declaration of Parliament is more authentique then the particular writings of them that are accused yea the very Election and Admission to the Synod by the Parliament suffice to justifie the Members from any publike accusation whatsoever in matter of Doctrine and Discipline For sure so Wise and Religious a Parliament would never admit into a Synod called together for the Reformation of Religion any Heretique or Schismatique stained and deformed with Errour Notwithstanding M.S. brings Reasons for himselfe 1. For that the Parliament being indulgent chose Episcopall men To which I answer That the Bishops at that time were Morally Orthodox being not then accused or condemned by any publike Authority As to that he addes that there are some Members of the Synod ejected out of the Assembly and cast into prison I answer That this was for Delinquencies of theirs that happened after their Election But for that the Independents were not so handled they were held as Innocent men 2. M.S. sayes that two worthy Parliament men of a County may not know at first all the Faults in every Towne c. A.S. To this I answer that no more is there any necessity that they should know every particular man in a County But it suffices that they know two Ministers that are Religious and of good report and it should be very strange if they should not know such a number But besides this I shall answer more fully in a particular Question 5. Consideration whether this your Apol. Narration wherein ye blame all Protestant Churches as not having the power of godlinesse and the Profession thereof with difference from all carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth amongst them as amongst you be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of their Brotherly Assistance and particularly of that of the Scots against whom it is commonly thought to be particularly intended who at this very time so unseasonable according to their duty hazard their lives and estates for Gods Church all this Kingdome and you also Here note that M.S. answereth not to this principall Question or interrogative Preposition viz. if this Apologeticall Narration be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of the Brotherly assistance of Protestant Churches but only biteth at the Syncategorema or adjacent terme thereof viz. not having the power of godlinesse so that his silence seemeth cleerly to grant the principall Question which we willingly accept of As for the Syncategorema it cannot receive the sense that hee puts upon it for the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers speak here of themselves as contra-distinguished or opposed to all other Reformed Churches both abroad and within this Island as appeareth by the beginning of the 2. Sect. p. 4. where they say Wee were not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And afterwards we could not but suppose that they could not see into all things about Worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine And afterward And we had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not been advanced and held forth among them as in this our own Island as themselves have generally acknowledged Here they oppose themselves and those of their own profession to all other Reformed Churches whatsoever yea to the first Reformers here in this Island if England whereof they speak be in this Island It is likewise false The words of the Apologie are 1. That they and many others had but observed touching the non-advance of the power of godlinesse c. They are verbatim as I have set them down Neither cited I those words all and among you as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers words since I put them in a different Character from theirs and yet the sense is most true as I have proved Neither said I that they say that other Churches had no power of godliness Neither by this phrase This our Island understand you or can they understand any Reformed Churches different in Government from themselves as this M.S. will perswade us unlesse he hold our Reformers of England to be out of this Island since they oppose themselves to all other Reformers and Reformed Churches both within and without this Island So if this speech be intended against all other Reformed Churches except their own it must be intended against that of Scotland unless ye deny good Sir that of Scotland to be a Reformed Church neither serveth it you a pin that they call them deare Brethren for that must either be by dissimulation or they conceive that men may be their deare Brethren without the force of Piety or they contradict themselves choose ye what please you Sir So this is not my ill eye as you say but your ill eye brought home to your own doore fie upon thee give glory to God and render thy selfe to truth for feare thou render thy selfe to worse It is likewise false that I said it is intended against Scotland only I said it is commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots which appeareth cleerly because sundry Independent Ministers and others travell to prove it by the confession of some Scots Ministers So judge I pray Christian Reader whether this man with this his power of piety or I whom he maketh so impious a Machivilian speak more like his Machiavilian I am assured what ever be thy power of Piety thou hast no practise of Piety here No truer is it that their Proposition is but Indefinite in a Contingent matter and therefore it may be construed of some Particulars only for as the rest of the Independents save ordinarily their absurd speeches with meere Possibilities so doth M.S. which here cannot hold for the Apologists say that they were not engaged by Education or any other wayes to any other of the Reformed Churches i.e. Nullo modo and Nulli Ecclesiae Reformatae so it is altogether Universall both in regard of the Subject or Matter and of the Manner and of such Churches they speake in all that Discourse in that Paragraph and it may appeare by this their proofe viz. as they themselves generally acknowledge 6. Consid Whether as it is observed by sundry men of learning and as ye have noted your selves ye should not have done better to have set down your Opinions by way of Theses and so manifested unto us wherein ye agree or disagree with us or from us the Brownists Anabaptists and those whom ye pretend to hold the same Tenets with you in Old and New England and the Netherlands then
yet promiseth an Answer M.S. his first Answer is that the Five Ministers ayme at no separation but as their Brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction A.S. If it be only from Prelaticall coaction wherefore separate they themselves from their Brethren the Scots their Sacramentall Communion and the Scots from theirs if they separate not themselves from us wherefore are they suitors for a Toleration or approbation of their Religion since ours is already tolerated and approved as appeareth in the French Italian and Spanish Churches in this Kingdome Neither are you compelled to be Actors in any thing against your Consciences as your Brethren were by Bishops M.S. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme Defects yet saith he those Defects are but pretended A.S. Our meaning is to reforme Defects if any there be such as we acknowledge to be in manners as amongst you also or in the administration of Discipline as may be amongst us all But as for any Defects in the principall parts of our Ecclesiasticall Discipline we see none as yet that we travell not to reforme but believe such as hee objects us in them to be rather pretended then Reall Neither can we or shall we judge them to be any other thing but pretended till he make it appeare that they are Reall Will He that we beleeve them to be Reall because that he only sayes so but it is not the first untruth has falne from his pen. M.S. He would have the Five Ministers quit the Assembly A.S. This M.S. supposes that this last Proposition crosseth my Supposition But they may stay in the Church to reforme Abuses if there be any really as it is pretended by the Independents and live out of the Assembly as many others who are no wayes their Inferiours Neither said I that I wished them to be out of the Assembly only I propounded a question whether in consequence of the publishing of their Apologie they should not resolve themselves to quit the Assembly Now courtcous and conscientious Reader be thou judge I pray thee whether this man hath answered any of my Questions yea or not which are all the main points here to be debated Quest I. Whether it had not been honester and fairer dealing to have added the Author and Licencer's Name to M.S. his Booke then to have omitted them I Affirme it 1. because it testifieth a greater sincerity especially in these Times 2. Because it makes it appear more probably to the world that it is not a Libel 3. And that it conteineth nothing against the Law 4. Because the Name of the Author giveth authority to the Book if he be either learned or honest and the omission thereof may cut off the Authority of it and bring discredit unto it especially when the Law for this effect ordaineth it to be added 5. Because when it is suppressed and the Book a Libell it giveth too much adoe to the Magistrate to find out the Author to censure and punish him condignly according to his demerits 6. Because the Holy Writers did so and if their Names be omitted in some Books we know not whether it was with their consent or whether they did not put to their names howbeit not in quality of Canonicall Scripture or peradventure it was because they were not the Authors but as it were Gods Secretaries or Scribes for the Holy Ghost dictated them what they had to write 7. Because it hindreth men from being deceived in their moneys for sundry times men because of specious Titles put before Books buy them and afterward find nothing worth their money 8. The adding of the name of the Author and of the Licencer with the Licence will hinder the common people to be deceived in reading of hereticall and unsound in stead of Orthodox and sound Books So that this being confidered this Author should have done better that he had added his name and the Licence to his Book Quest II. Whether Mr. Cranford might not justly Licence A.S. his Consid and Answer to the Libell c. I Susteine the first part of the Question and deny the second As for the first it is evident 1. Because it is conformed to Gods word as we shall see hereafter 2. Because that Answer is nothing else but an Apologie for the Discipline of the Reformed Churches 3. Because it containeth nothing contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England or any other true Reformed Churches only it hath some new Sectaries for Enemies 4. Because the Church of England evermore entertained Union with the Reformed Churches that were ruled by that Discipline and they refused not one another to the Communion of the Sacraments 5. Because that a Bishop and the rest of the Commissioners from England at the Synod of Dordrecht approved that Discipline in the name of the Church of England 6. Because in England it selfe it hath been evermore approved by the King and Parliament who granted the Exercise thereof unto the French Dutch Italian and Spanish Churches in this very City of London and sundry other parts of this Kingdome 7. At this present Episcopall Government being put down it standeth by Law approved both by State and Church as conforme unto Gods word 8. The Kings Majesty likewise by consent of Parliament Licenced it in Scotland The second part of the Question may be proved by the contrary Arguments 1. Because it maintaineth a Discipline that is not conforme to Gods word which hath not one word of particular Churches Independent one from another of particular Church-Covenants distinct from that of Grace of not Baptizing Christians Children of not admission of Faithfull men and women who are without Scandall unto the Lords Table c. 2. Because the Discipline it maintaineth is repugnant to all other Disciplines of all other reformed yea of all Christian Churches 3. It containeth many things contrary to the Doctrine of the Church of England as they confesse themselves 4. Because the Church of England never entertained any Union or Communion with any Church ruled by that Discipline 5. No Commissioners from England ever approved it 6. It hath never been received in England by King or Parliament 7. It hath never been put up here nor standeth here Legally as the other And therefore the first Legally might have been Licenced and the other could not be Licenced QUEST 3. Whether any man may not state and determine Questions agitated in Synods before the Synods Determination M. S. BLames me mightily for stating some Questions now in agitation in the Synod To the contrary I conceive that herein I have done nothing amisse But for the better stating and determining of this Question we must observe 1. That there are two sorts of Questions some that are already determined in Gods Word and his Church also Others that are not 2. That there are some Determinations by publick Authority as Lawes Statutes Ecclesiasticall Canons c. and others particular proceeding
gift that is in thee which was given thee by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Item That which is said c. 5. v. 21.22 About laying on of hands and drinking of wine But all this should be ridiculous and superfluous The truth is that here as in other Epistles many Duties are commanded but not all to all but some to Publick persons as to Pastours to Church-Rulers Some to particular Persons And others are common to all And this here is commanded to Timothy a Pastour and in his name to all other Pastours as the same common Dutie of them all After Scripture they bring Reason but against both Scripture and Reason 1. VVhat concerneth all ought to be done by the consent of all But the Government of the Church concernes all E. A. If by the word Consent bee here meant Formall and Actuall explicit Consent it is false 1. Because our Brethren crave not the consent of VVomen and young Men and yet the Preaching of Gods word the Administration of the Sacraments and the Government of the Church concernes them all 2. Because scarsly is it possible or at least it falls rarely out that every one whom every Act of Ecclesiasticall Government concernes consents thereunto for Voyces and suffrages sometimes are divided yea among our Brethren in their voycing So that this is against themselves 3. In our Churches it is done by the consent of all either Formall or Virtuall since our Ecclesisticall Discipline and Government is established by all and our Church Rulers have the Power to rule according to Gods word by consent of the People so far forth as they actually consent thereunto or contradict it not 4. Either they understand here the generall Forme of Government and the power of Jurisdiction or the exercise thereof in actuall judging or the execution thereof after the matter is judged which they will to be done with the consent of all The first is established by God without our consent as they avow The second we deny it for in the Politicall Government the Judges doe Voyce and judge without the consent of all whom it concerneth As for the third if it concerne all particularly as Excommunication then it is published and if none contradict the Judgement they are thought to consent at least interpretativè since they contradict it not or if any man dissent his Reasons are to be heard which if they be just the proceeding is to be hindred if not he is to rest contented according to Gods word And if after sufficient satisfaction he acquiesces not he is to be punished according to the quality of his Fault Ob. If your Ecclesiasticall Senate judge alone as the Representative Church as ye call it then must it judge according to the Judgement of the People or Reall Church otherwise it shall no more represent the People or the whole Congregation then an Assent represents a Dissent or Black represents White But that can it not unlesse it know the Judgement of the People which cannot be known but by their Voycing and hearing of them E. R. I answer 1. to the Major it must be conforme to their actuall Judgement formall I deny it for the reason here alleadged to their vertuall Judgement I grant it for they professe actually that they will follow Gods word wherein vertually is conteined and they may be deduce if they will that the Representative Church judges not according to their erronious formall and actuall judgement and so the Assumption is false R. 2. To their actuall Judgement whatsoever it be I deny it To that whereby they will judge truly according to Gods word I grant it and then the Assumption is false R. 3. To all their Judgement I deny the Major for it is impossible to follow the Judgement contradictory of divers Persons or those of one man which actually and formally or virtually may be contradictory to themselves R. 4. I answer the Representative Church must judge according to the actuall Judgement of the Reall Church or People it is false For what if the People be infected with Heresie Shall the Ministers and Rulers of the Church in that case become Hereticks or judge in favour of Hereticks according to the Judgement Such as it should be according to Gods word it is true for the Representative Church is not so called as if it represented the Churches Judgement such as it is but such as it should be according to Gods word that rules them both yea if that should represent this actuall Judgement it should doe more then 20. divers Judgements which oftentimes are to be found amongst the People upon one subject And so we deny the Assumption of the Syllogisme To the confirmation thereof I answer that it should no more represent their actuall Judgement I grant it but it should represent their Potentiall Judgement such as they are bound to have howsoever their actuall Judgements be contradictory Ob. But what if the Judgement of your Ecclesiasticall Senate or Representative Church be wrong and that of the Reall Church sound A. That Case is extraordinary in respect of the order established in Gods Church for when it is said Tell it unto the Church and if hee heare not the Church c. It is supposed that the Church will judge the judgements of the Lord or according to his Law neither hath Shee any other order from God but in that extraordinarie Case supposed I answer that neither the People nor any particular man is bound to obey the Representative Church but every one hath power of God to contest lawfully the Judgement of the Representative Church and Shee is bound to admit them in their contestations and to heare them according to the Scripture and to amend their Judgement And if all the Church or the greater part of the Reall Church or Congregation oppose it selfe to their Judgement it cannot stand nor be put in execution yea I dare say that the Representative Church shewing her selfe pertinacious in her errour after sufficient conviction or refusing to heare her conviction is really Schismaticall or Hereticall according to the matter contested in Gods account And howsoever particular men cannot right themselves but are bound to suffer injustice so long as they stay in such Churches since they are not Ecclesiasticall Judges or to retire themselves out of the societie of such Oppressors to the end they may more easily defend themselves neverthelesse the Collective Body of the Reall Church or the greater part thereof if it have the Abilitie is bound to refute them to make them ashamed yea to contemne their Judgement and by all lawfull meanes oppresse such Oppressors And this is the Doctrine of our first Reformers oppressed by the Roman Antichristianisme against Papists which holds also in Reformed Churches For it is all one to me to find Antichristian Tyranny at Rome or at Edinburgh London Paris or Amsterdam It is not the place but Antichristian Tyranny or Doctrine that makes an Antichrist And to be quit with them here I aske againe what if the Judgement of the Consistorie be right and that of the People which ordinarily falls out wrong or if the Judgement of the greater part of the People be wrong and that of the lesser part right what then is to be done or followed Here they shall find themselves in no lesse straights then they think to draw us unto Ob. They say it is a thing never heard nor seene in any Kingdome of the world or in any Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie before Calvin and Beza that all the People should be secretly as it were in a Chamber of Meditation judged out of all mens presence by six or ten Ecclesiasticall Persons A. They that say so have not seen nor heard much of that which passes in the Christian world it is a thing very ordinary to see some civill Causes in civill Judicatories Pleaded with the doors shut by the consent of the Parties yea sometimes by the will of the Judges 2. And I would pray them to go no farther to tell me if every man hath libertie to enter in at the Parliament here at home They cannot deny but that the door is kept close and that ordinarily only the Members of the House have entry 3. And neverthelesse if the Parties desire to plead their Causes in the presence of so many as may enter I doubt not but the Reformed Church will grant it them yea there is an Act of the French Discipline to that purpose commanding that the Parties desiring their Causes to be discussed openly the doores cast open it should be granted Yea wee maintain that in such Cases when parties complaine of such secret Ecclesiasticall oppression the Church is bound by law and Conscience to proceed publickly and to justifie to the world her Proceedings otherwise shee is no wayes to be believed And this Argument I had willingly passed over if it had not been urged against me and that I had beene prayed to answer it by some of our Brethren that thought it so strong that it could not be answered But to answer ad hominem may not such faults fall out amongst them that object this Argument as we have Examples of it Our Question is not so much what is done as what should be done How to establish a Law against Abuses in the Churches and not How men abuse their owne Authoritie FINIS
l'esmotion bruyante de ses entrailles sur vos Eglises qu' Il nous donne bien tost subject de glorifier son Sainct Nomen vostre delivrance Amen jesuis Monsieur Vostre tres-humble serviteur Morus Geneve 18. Septemb. 1644. To Monsieur Buchanan a Scottish Gentleman at London SIR I Have shewed our Consistory the writing which you were pleased to addresse to them by my meanes whereby after you have deduced the Causes of your Troubles and the divers obstacles that keep back so long the publique peace you demand of us our Advice and particularly as to the Opinions of certain of the Members of your Synod that maintaine that all Churches may be sufficiently governed by their Consistories every one a part without any dependance at all upon the greater Assemblies that have fuller Authority such as are the Colloques and the Provinciall and Nationall Synods To which Head I have direction from them to write unto you that as our bowels have ever earned in compassion toward you as concerning your misfortunes having been very sensible of the Afflictions of Ioseph and considered the sad face of your Churches as a calamity that touches us very neare however we beheld it but at such a distance so we can doe no other then redouble our sighes to understand how the Devill sowes his Tares during the darke night of your Affliction and stirrs up such diversity of Spirits who through a zeale voyd of Knowledge teare in pieces that seamelesse Coate of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ But that which touches us yet nigher is that into an Assembly that should have no other levell or ayme save such a peace as may be Holy such differences and misunderstandings should glyde and insinuate themselves as ought not to spring up amongst the Servants of God or that Christian Prudence ought at least to stifle in their very birth and first Rise following the Authority of the Holy Scripture the Custome of the Primitive Church the History of all Ages and the Experience of our owne Times For not to stay my selfe upon the name of Independents which they take or others call them by though it deserve for ever to be banished from among those that are Orthodox and to be left to the Councells or to the Bishop of Rome know we not that the internall Kingdome of our Lord Iesus Soveraigne Monarch of the Church which tends all to unity to consummate all in One as He is one with his Father cannot possibly entertaine an Union without a Communion of the Spirit And is not this Communion extreamly weakened by meanes of the distractions of the severall members of the Body and by reason of the obstruction of the Vessells which should serve her as so many Conduit-pipes How should this Spirit freely passe up and downe from one part of the Body to the other for the entire aggregation of the Body of the Saints by its influence if a singularity of Discipline as a thick Hedge interpose and choake up its way How should ever this Body grow into a perfect man according to the measure of that perfect stature of Christ in all its joynts if so be that the Foot have no need of the Eye if the inferiour members disjoynt and loose themselves from the noble parts and the noble despise the lesse honourable which yet are the more necessary How can the Building of the Spirituall Temple be advanced if the worke-men will needs doe their worke every one a part and will not maintaine a close correspondence and understanding the one with the other Or this Heavenly Army how shall it ever be able to vanquish its Enemies when we see its Squadrons breake thus their Files and that its Bounds are so badly ranged The Scripture often tyes the Power of the Church and her Beauty in one band together But neither the one nor the other of these Graces can ever preserve its strength if men come once to set at naught that exquisite prop and ornament that Generall Assemblies afford it There it is that the Church still re-inforces her selfe and where she makes her selfe formidable as an Army that marches with Banners flying in a kind of Holy Triumph There it is where her Countenance appeares glorious after she hath gotten out the staines and filled up the wrinckles wherewith particular Mens Opinions and passions had eclipsed her lustre There it is that her Head comes to shine as bright as though she were Crowned with Starres and that she beares in her Hands those two staves of Beauty and Bands And to save my selfe the labour of alleadging here the Policy of the Church of the Iewes wherein notwithstanding it is evident that the great Councell of the Sanhedrim had an authentique direction Paul and Barnabas in their Dispute touching Ceremonies had they their recourse to any private man or particular Consistorys or decided they the point in controversie every one by his private Authority as he conceived of it No they assembled a Councell wâ—â— should serve as a Glasse and patterne to all the posterity of the Faithful even to the end of the world When as the Celebration of Easter Day was so much controverted was every Church left to its liberty to celebrate it after its own guise and fashion No here were assembled I know not how many Synods wherein it was ordered that it should be celebrated constantly on the Lords Day So when Constantine saw how the Bishops the People banded themselves one against the other like to Symplejades to use Eusebius his terme he convocated the Nicene Synod as though he had leavyed an Army for God protesting thereupon according to the report of Theodores Socrates that he had not found out any other meanes to settle any thing that might be firm and holding But we should be forced to interweave all the Epoches of the Church if we should bring here all that might be brought to this purpose These things are so cleare and so well knowne that it should be unusefull to speak of them did they not justifie the proceedings held at this day every where in the Orthodox Churches For we know not of any one that in a Conformity with the Primitive Church accounts not her selfe happy when she can see the Servants of God gathered into an Holy Assembly regulating with common consent that which appertaines either to the Decorum of the service or else the points of Doctrine by reason and by Scripture which is farre above all Reason And for our selves since you are pleased to demand our Advice we protest to all the world how great Enemies soever we are of Tyranny that we are no whit lesse of Anarchy We abominate and detest together with the usurpations of the Pope the madnesse of the Anabaptists We prize as high as ever did our Fathers a free Councell convocated in the name of God wherein his Spirit and Word may preside and have the casting voyce and we are clearely of Opinion that
sure at the rising of the Assembly to murmure at and condemne the Iudgements that were passed if either they were not to their good liking or that they found them not to be grounded upon such Reasons as themselves approved of 5. As to that that they permit any one whatsoever if he have the ability to Preach publickly in their Assemblies notwithstanding that he have not Orders This is one of the greatest Disorders that can possibly happen in the world This what is it other but to bring in all kinde of Fanatiques and Enthusiasts and to expose Christian Religion to be made a laughing-stock to the Enemies of Gods Truth And to make of the House of God which is an House of Order a Babell of Disorder and horrible Confusion It will serve them to little purpose to alleadge for themselves the Example of the Ancient Church in the Times of the Apostles for in those times all the faithfull had Extraordinary Graces as also the guift of Prophecie and yet for all that were those holy Prophets to stay till they were bidden to speake and untill such time as it was said to them as to St. Paul and Barnabas Men Brethren If you have any word of Exhortation speake on which was a kind of Vocation Now a daies when men have not such Infusions of Guifts but that they acquire the Sciences and abilities for Preaching by study and paines God powring forth his blessing upon their industry it were to mocke God and men to require that all men should Preach indifferently without any praevious Examen of their Guifts or the dexterity they have to divide the Word of God to Edification 6. As to that That many maintaine that every man ought to have liberty to make profession of whatsoever Religion himselfe thinkes best how bad soever it be provided that he attempt nothing against the State wherein he lives this is a Libertinisme not to be indured in the House of God and it is flatly against his Word For in the Old Testament it was not permitted to any to make profession of any other Religion save that which God himselfe had instituted And you know what God ordained against false Prophets that turne away the people from his service Deut. 13. As also in the New Testament how St. Paul wills us to take heed of such as make Divisions and raise scandalls against that Doctrin that we have learn't and that we turne away from them Rom. 16. And that if an Apostle or an Angell from Heaven preach another Gospell unto us then hath been preached that he be accursed Gal. 1. yea St. Iohn very sweetnesse and Charity it self will not at any hand that we receive into our houses no not that we so much as bid God speed to those that bring us not the Doctrin of the Gospell 7. As to that That they make no reckoning either of the Iudgement or Consent of other Reformed Churches but reject them as an humane Argument I see they have profited little in Saint Pauls Schoole whose Lesson is that we submit our selves one to another in the feare of God and that in giving honour we goe one before the other and that the spirits of the Prophets be subject to the Prophets God forbid we should ever place Gods Ordinances and the Ecclesiasticall Constitutions in the same ranke together Whatsoever God sayes should be unto us a Law inviolable But as for men we are to prove all things and to hold that which is good For as much as concernes the Foundation or Essence of Religion there is none but God alone that can ordain any thing in it But as to the Exteriour Order and Policy of the Church That wise Father of his Family is content to leave with us his Generall Word of direction That in his House all things be done decently and in order He leaves the particulars to the pious prudence of such as he hath called to the guidance and Government of his people It is their duty when they are met together in the name of the Lord to be earnest Suiters and Suppliants unto him that he will please to preside in the midst of them and put in their hearts to doe those things that shall be most expedient for his Glory and the Edification of his Children The Government of other Reformed Churches layes no absolute yoake upon us nor can it be propounded as any infallible Law But true it is it ought to be a Patterne and Example for our imitation if so be we finde no manifest repugnancies in it to the Word of God But if there be any that is resolved to be contentious hereabouts we have no such custome nor yet have the Churches of God 1 Cor. 2.16 We hold for certaine that there neither is nor ought to be any Office for teaching and governing the Church which should not have its foundation and ground in Gods Word And so the Office of Minister Pastor Bishop Ancient and Deacon are founded immediatly Formally and Expresly on the Word of God howsoever some there be that will needs have the Office of Ancients as it is now practised in the Reformed Churches to have no other ground at all in Scripture save onely by Analogy and as it is drawne thence by necessary Consequence as they speake which in conclusion is one and the same thing For that which is deduced by necessary Consequence from Scripture is every jot as much in Scripture as that what ever it is that is there in Expresse Termes All this is agreeable and conforme with 29. and 30. Articles of the Confession of Faith where it is said That our Lord hath established this Policy and Government in his Church viz. by Pastors Over-seers or Ancients and Deacons And that those that are true Pastors in what place soever they inhabit have the very same Authority and equall power under the Lord Iesus Christ the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of our soules Act. 6.4 Eph. 4.11 1 Tim. 3.1 Tit. 1.5 Matth. 20.26.18.2 2 Cor. 1.27 1 Pet. 5.3 Sentiment d'u grand Theologien de France Touchant l'Independence declarè en une Lettre addresseè a Mr. Buchanan VN mien amy homme vertueux craignant Dieu m'a adverti que quelques personnes trouvent mauvais l'ordre establi en nos Eglises par le quel les Consistoires sont subjects aux Colloques les Colloques aux Synodes Provinciaux les Provinciaux aux Nationaux Ils voudroient que chaque Consistoire eust une authoritè absolue qui ne dependist d'aucune assemblée superieure la dessus ce mien amy me demande quel est mou seutiment la chose est de telle nature de telle importance que je nay peu luy refuser ce qu'il requiert de moy Je dis donc que ceux qui font telles Propositions ne doivent estre creus si on suiuois leur advis il ne s'en pourroit ensuiure que le renversement de l'Eglise une
shall shew hereafter that ye are not Separatistae nominales but reales If the Church lie now gasping as you complain who I pray can be the cause of it but your selves that vex and torment her more then Papists Arminians Anabaptists Socinians and all other Sects and Heresies besides ever yet did P. 2. sect 4. Thou art a strange Divine that consultest Astrologues about the Horoscope of my Book But to that I say no more but what the Prophet saith Stand up with thine enchantments and with the multitude of thy sorceries if so be thou maiest prevaile Let now the Astrologers the Star-gazers the monethly Prognesticators stand up Jer. 10.12 I am not dismayed at the signe of the heaven for the Heathen are dismaid at them I tell thee with all thy Chaldeans and Sorcerers I feare you not all Christians feare not such Prophets God hath raised us up a Prophet like to Moyses whom we must heare and Moyses tels thee that they who doe these things that thou doest are an abomination to the Lord Deut. 18.10 11 12 13 14 15. After this sect 6. in the same pag. he giveth out his judgement upon the title of my Book but without the least judgement or reason at all P. 3. Sect. 1. He accuseth me to be too peremptorious in determining the question and so anticipating the judgement of the Assembly Answ 1. If I anticipate so I must tell him does he with the rest of the Sectaries of his Faction in determining the question for his party 2. particular mens Determinations cannot anticipate the judgement of the Assembly or take it out of their hands as most ignorantly hee pretends for particular mens private Determinations are evermore subject to publike Determination 3. Neither is it necessary that when ever Sects or Heresies creepe into the Church wee should presently all begin to suspend our judgements in things revealed in Gods word and already determined by the Church as this is as we shall God willing hereafter make appeare and so stand ever gaping after new Decisions I should doe my selfe wrong to answer the 2 Sect. Which conteineth only his unreasonable judgement against me who say nothing of Independents but what I prove by evident Reasons And the judgements of Protestant Churches abroad here printed will decide this Controversie But what he saith from the rest of the third page till page the 6. Sect 3. it shall be an swered in a particular question P. 4. Sect. 2. A.S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-ax knocking a man on the head to kill a fly lighting on his heard Answ What this man meaneth by his Pole-axe I know not I strike at no mans head If I strike at any fly it must be some Wasp and then either a Hornet that stingeth to death the Horse of whose dung it is bred or a Wasp with which Tertullian not unfitly compareth Sectaries faciunt favos vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marcionite quid ni Donatista P. 6. Sect. 3. He propounds himselfe for a pattern to me in writing But hee must excuse me if I tell him plainly I hold him not worthy the imitating neither may I ever so much reverence any of his party as to quit my Christian liberty to refute their extravagancies where ever I meet with them especially when they appeare to be of so pernicious a consequence As for the title of Most revenend that I gave them I learn't it in part of themselves that they are reverend and since their reverence is independent what else could I take it for but most reverend that acknowledge no superiour Reverence Sect. 5. Howsoever of his liberality hee bestow the lie on me I must pray him permit me to return it home again for what I said before by his good leave I must say again it is most true that in your particular Opinions ye differ from all true reformed Churches at least so far forth as they are distinguished from Conventicles and Schismaticall Assemblies And as for your Reformed Churches in England viz. Independent from which ye differ not 1. they are invisible 2. they are Schismaticall 3. and erected without the Civill Magistrates consent and such Churches your selves hold unlawfull turbulent Schismaticall and punishable in N.E. And if in N.E. wherefore I pray not in old England also Sect. 6. And as for that his conjecture that I wil object some Manuscripts and Master Parkers letter from N.E. and another from Zeland it is his mistake for it was not my intention to dispute in a liminary Epistle only I say of Master Parker since he puts me upon this subject that if he were at his liberty in O.E. as he is in servitude under that oppression of N.E. he might happily say more then he will be allowed to say there P. 7. Sect. 1. It is also a great mistake in him to think that their Discipline can be abused to ill it cannot be abused but to good P. 8 Sect. 1. It is an abominable accusation and a black calumnie that hee layeth upon the Reformed Churches of Zeland viz. that there are in their letters many high passages seeming so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifieth that of the Apologie 2. for that letter speaketh not at all of the Magistrate or Magistracy of England 2. It speaketh only of their own wherof this little Independent Minister is too bold to thinke himselfe a competent Judge Neither will they depend of him howbeit he should a spire to be as Independent as Lucifer himself 3. They speak not of all their Magistrates but of some and especially of those who joyned with the Arminian Sect The Arminians crying up their authority in the Spirituall government of the Church and these unworthy Magistrates crying down the Doctrine 4. Because the Government of Holland and the Magistrates power there is not like to that of England the one being Monarchicall or rather mixt of Monarchicall Aristocraticall and Democraticall as it is commonly holden here and the other Aristocraticall or mixt of Aristocracy and Democracy and therefore the rules of the one Government cannot be well drawn in consequence for the other 5. This M.S. cognomento Calumniator in this matter should have done well and gone more honestly to work if he had cited those high passages so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy but he shewes himselfe more cunning then so to discover his calumny 6. As for his sententious conclusion of this point with Verbum sapienti sat est a man very well affectioned to the Zelanders in reading of it added in the margin of the Book sed non insipientis nedum decipientis It is as great pitty so good men should have harboured so ill and so unthankfull Guests P. 9. Sect. 3. He speaketh as if he were a Prophet sent to reforme all the Churches of the world so did Bur Jesu and bringeth us in I know not what a Master Davenport like another Salomon in the way of N.E. casting out his
new proverbiall Sentences viz. a. Classicall Presbyterie is 13. Bishops O witty and weighty Sentence if any man understood it worthy only such an Ecclesiastes as himself to be Register of What praise merite ye not both Vunlo tu dignus ille In the the end of this sect he giveth out his metaphorical judgement to grinde the Idol of half Reformation to powder and yet professeth that he will not or which a man would rather beleeve cannot tell what it is O how ridiculous a Judge is this without judgement Only this I will say that 1. if it be Episcopacy as this new Master of Sentences C.C. say 2. if an Idol that must be grinded into powder as M.S. saith and 3. if Episcopal Government must be extirpated as the Covenant saith and as we all in swearing the Covenant say sure then the Scots are come in upon very worshipfull termes to assist the Independents viz. upon this Condition that when they have fought for them they shall extirpate them and grinde them all into powder Is not this a very quick Independent conception and yet notwithstanding all this which is worthy the noting these good men in taking the Covenant have sworn the preservation of the reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government i.e. according to their judgement good Prelacy or Episcopacy jura perjura And here like a little Pope he telleth us that all Churches generally purtly by Tyranny and partly by security are grown so corrupt that to apologise for a through Reformation seems to reprove all and so all will be offended None it seems shall be reformed unless they become Independent so that they and they alone may vaunt themselves Et nos ergo manum ferulae subduximus nos Consilium dedimus Syllae To his 4. Sect. I maintain that Independents dissent from all Christian Churches since no Christian Church holds it selfe Independent but yours and whether they be any Churches that are not Protestant we shall see in a particular Question howbeit it be an untruth that ever I said that Papists were Christian Churches He and his fellows doe well to dissent from Papists but not in dependency His Observations are false where he sayes that we run to the Popish markes of visibility succession and universality and I have refuted this calumny in my Answer to C.C. When I argue from visibility and number I doe as the Apostle doth in bringing many visible Saints as a great number of witnesses of our Doctrine Heb. 11. and not as Essentiall markes of our Church P. 10. Because I say that the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers are but men as I am and that they may erre out of this hee inferreth that I thinke I have more knowledge then they since they are not yet condemned by the Assembly Answ I deny the consequence for by the same reason every particular man that condemneth Anabaptisme and other Schismes and Heresies before they be condemned by the Synod should thinke themselves learneder then they are But is it such a crime to say that they are but men that may erre I pray you sir if ye be any other thing then men what are ye if ye be men who pretend ye cannot erre you must either be Sancta Mater Ecclesia Romana or els lead by Anabaptisticall Enthusiasines as with an ignis fatuus And pretend ye that by reason of your great learning ye are priviledged from errour I tell thee man that amongst the very Angels Lucifer and amongst men Adam in the state of integrity and since the Fall Achitophel and Salomon erred and yet every one of them were learneder then ye all I hope there is no man maketh the least question but the meanest of them was learneder then any of you yea then you all in cumulo And therefore vaunt not so much of your learning No learning but visio beatifica which ye want can priviledge a man from errour according to Schoole-men P. 11. Sect. 1. I have answer'd it is no Popish Argument when I oppose so great a number of Witnesses unto him for then the Apostles Argument Heb. 11. should be Popish what is thy mopish argument I know not for I never read mopish in the Index of my Bible nor amongst the termes of Divinity or Philosophy whether it be an injury or not I know not and care as little 2. It is an untruth to say that I would conjure him to yeeld any thing upon plurality of voyces for I have learned of some of his own party that they are no wayes minded upon plurality of voyces to submit themselves unto the venerable Assembly of Divines neither can it well agree with the independent Spirits of their Divinity that the spirits of Prophets be subject to Prophets They will that all be subject unto them Sect. 4. Neither are his 4. silly Arguments which are but one drawn up ab Exemplo of notorious Sinners Malignants Papists and Prelates who argue from the multitude of those of their way to the verity and equity of it any thing to the purpose First we cite but a number of reformed Divines and reformed Churches which hee acknowledges with us to be such so does not he of his Examples 2. And if I have erred in this wherefore did the Apologists shew me the way in citing the Examples of those of N.E. c 3. My Argument concludeth ad Hominem since they argue so 4. I ground not my selfe on this Argument alone but on a great number of others in my book whereuuto hee answers not nor can answer P. 17. Sect. 1. What he tells us of the number of their Churches they are but Churches of Sectaries and Schismaticall since they have cut off themselves and are separated from all Protestant Churches union and communion as I have often-times declared and I speak not of such Churches Sect. 3. He sayes that W.R. condemns the Apologists for agreeing with the Churches of N.E. and A.S. condemneth them for dissenting from them He should have done well to have coted the places of our Books and to have told at the same time in what points we condemne them in their consent and dissent for W.R. may condemne them for their consent in one thing and A.S. for their dissent in another If I condemne them for any dissent I may safely swear that either I have read it in their Books or heard it of Independents themselves What I say p. 17. sect 4. I say it again in my conscience that I verily beleeve that Independency cannot but prove the root of all Schismes and Heresies yea I adde that by consequence it is much worse then Popery And all this I have sufficiently proved in my Book whereunto he answers nothing And whereas he sayes I would do well to confer with some of them I write against I had thought I had sufficiently declared my readiness in that kind formerly and I again now declare unto you Sir in particular that I
in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the
the truth and with edification or rule well and beleeve not which may bee done by a very wicked man Mat. 7.19 20 21 22 23. and another may be a good man but an ill Preacher Prophet or Ruler if he have sanctifying grace and have not so great abilities to preach or to rule as an other who perchance is an Atheist or if he be somewhat negligent in the exercise of his charge The Apostle sayes not that all that were in their Churches were Saints either really or appearingly but to all the Saints 4. It is probable also and some of them grant it that all the Members of the Church in those texts of Scripture are called Saints or holy 1. because of the holiness of the Covenant 2. Or holy because of the holy Confession 3. Or holy Profession 4. Or of the holy Sacraments of the holy Covenant wherunto they were partakers or finally because of their externall Vocation to salvation But all this makes them not learned prudent judicious nor furnishes them with other abilities which are needfull for the exercise of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction 5. But put the case that we should grant them all this yet can they not escape thus saying that in so doing they admit not all those that are actually received in the Church as her Children and members to the exercise of Ecclesiastical Discipline but the lesser part for there are more ignorant then learned and ill men then good in the Church or at least that have not the gifts required therunto and so in rejecting they are forced to admit some Election and establish some representative Church by the admission of some and the exclusion of others so that in this point they differ not from us in not admitting a Representative Church but in admitting a greater and more Vast Representatative Church then we and the members thereof of lesse Abilities 6. Hence it follows that men have not right to exercise Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction in qualitie of Christians professing Christ since women and others have it not but in some other consideration which we desire to know viz. whether it be not for their Abilitie and so it is not to be found in all 7. This rejection of some yea of the greater part of the Church as women children old men ignorants Vitious men and others that have not the abilitie to judge as all unholy and prophane men and admission of others that are the lesser part as sanctified men in whom only consists the Church is capable to breed Divisions in their Church if the people have power to judge For accordingly they will judge in favour of themselves to be admitted and so procure a schisme and quarrell for the taking away whereof the Government accordingly is established let them take it into consideration how hard it is for any man yea for the most part of the Church to be declared ignorant imprudent young of an unripe judgement and doting c. and to the Church and see the lesse part which pretends to be the only Church declared apt and fit to their owne exclusion and what thereupon may ensue in a Democraticall Government upon such filthy and infamous aspersions in checking the greater part as prophane it may peradventure stirre up a bellum servile more dangerous to the Church then that amongst the Romans 8. The Doctrine that destroyes Gods holy Ordinance viz. the Distinction which he has put betwixt the Rulers of the Church and them that are ruled and are to obey cannot be admitted as our Brethren will confesse But the Doctrine that gives to every Member of the Church power and administration of Jurisdiction in ruling and governing the Church is such For God hath ordained some to rule and others to obey Rom. 12.8 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1 Thess 5.12 1 Tim. 5.17 Heb. 13.17 Obey them that rule over you and submit your selves unto them Now then if some be Rulers and others to obey we cannot all be Rulers as it appeares 1. Cor. 12.28 29. And God hath set some in the Church Apostles and Governments c. Are all Apostles c Where he sayes that one gift is not given to every Member of the Church Note that he speaks here of those gifts or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that are called gratia gratis data not for our own but for other mens use Ergo this order cannot be admitted 9. No confused Discipline or government of Gods Church can be ordained by God for God is not the God of Confusion 1. Cor. 14.33 But that wherein every one of the people hath Jurisdiction or juridicall power is a confused Discipline or government Ergo It cannot be ordained by God The Major will be granted since it is Gods word The Minor is evident For I put the case that in a Church composed of some 20000 persons there be some point of Doctrine to be decided what disorder and confusion should it not breed if every one of that huge multitude yea every illiterate and idle fellow should come and propound his idle thoughts By what wisdome of man could this many-headed beast be reduced to order It may be answered that they should be wise But we reply they are not nor can that be hoped or expected in this life nay doe any beleeve it either Donatists or Anabaptists and howbeit they were all wise to salvation yet followes it not that they should all be wise for Government and Examination of all Church Officers 10. The exercise of the Discipline of the Church is morally possible for God will not that his Church be governed by an order that is impossible But this Democraticall and Plebeian exercise of Discipline is not morally possible for if there were 20. or 30. points to be judged by such a huge multitude certainly they could not easily discusse and judge every point For if every one of 20000 should give his advise and peradventure be interrupted by some and then begin his discourse againe which ordinarily falls out amongst rude people when should the Examen and discussion of the businesse be ended Grant to every one of them but halfe an houre whereas I warrant you some should take halfe a day or halfe a yeare and say little to the purpose and yet make 〈…〉 of one businesse onely employing 12. hours a day counting the Lords day also should amount to two yeares and foure moneths or thereabouts so that here there is too much delay for a businesse should scarce ever be judged or ended what should become of all other businesse What if in this one question there should fall out 20. or 30. Incidents whereof every one should take up as much time as the principall Question which quicke witted men may easily procure when then should a Question be ended It may be answered that there may be some order taken for deliberating and consulting which may hinder this as at Rome where there were 1000. Senators and in Paris where at the Parliament there are 200. Senators
is to be created Pastor be of a vicious and scandalous life The second belongs not to every one of the People but only to Church-Officers who are presumed capable to judge of Doctrine and of his ability for the Ministery Now whether this belongs to Pastors alone or to the Ruling Elders also I will not dispute only they say that they only can examine his Doctrine that have the capacity to judge of it To these two may be referred the voycing of his probitie and capacity for his Doctrine which belongs to the Pastors and Elders or to the Representative Church for howsoever the People may assist at the Action to accuse the person that is to be received of ill life or false doctrine or of ignorance yet for the Reasons above proposed they are not to be accepted in voycing either of his life or Doctrine but that belonging to the Pastors alone 1 Tim. 3.15 and chap. 5. v. 11 22. The third viz. the right of Ordination or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seemes only to belong to the Pastors neither doe our Brethren deny it and it may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.14 Tit. 1.5 As for the Admission or Acceptation of a Minister into a particular Church it belongs to the people or to the whole Congregation for as a Husband is not to be urged upon a woman against her will but it being not Concubitus consensus qui facit matrimonium no more is a Pastor upon a particular Church and howsoever he may goe to the Pulpit and preach among them yet unlesse they consent he is not their Minister Now to apply this to the present Passage I say that the examen of life and Doctrine in this Election of Matthias belonged to the Apostles and other Church Officers whereunto might be admitted such of the People as had the capacity so did the Deliberative and the Decisive voycing as likewise the power of Ordination belonged to the Church-Officers alone And yet the People were there 1. to propound if they knew any impediment against his Vocation 2. to know that he was chosen 3. to admit him as a Minister of the Universall Militant Church upon Earth and in this they might voyce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. by giving their consent in stretching out their hands Neither can they or any man living draw any more from this Text But note here that the Vocation of a Minister Essentially and Formally consists in the Decisive voycing and in his Ordination The examen of his life and Doctrine are only Antecedents and the Admission of the people only Consequents of the Vocation and so Accidentally it belongs to the People but Essentially to Church-Officers only But what if the Congregation will not admit the Minister that is ordained A. I answer 1. That the Representative Church should not ordaine a Minister till they be assured of some Flock or Congregation that will admit him for their Minister 2. That if after they have promised to admit him they admit him not they doe wrong to the Church He is their true Pastor and they are to be commanded to admit him even as a woman that hath lawfully consented to marriage by her contracting of her selfe to such a man 3. If they will not obey neverthelesse he is a Minister yea their Minister and hath power to teach though he cannot exercise it for want of a Flock But it concernes the Church to provide him of some Flock 7. Others answer that the People may have a hand in the Election of their Church-Officers in Ecclesia constituenda such as this was but not in constituta The Passage which our Brethren bring out of Acts 6.2 3. and 5 6. prove not That every one of the people had power of Iurisdiction and of the voycing in the Election of the seven Deacons to the exclusion of children yong men men of weak Iudgement notorious Sinners and women for the Text hath no such thing in it 2. It may be doubted whether the multitude of the Disciples v. 2 3. signifie the promiscuous multitude or the multitude of the seventy Disciples chosen by Christ 3. But suppose it signifie generally Christs Disciples and not precisely those seventy yet it is not said that they created or ordained the Elders 4. The contrary may be concluded from the v. 4 5. Then the Twelve called the multitude of the Disciples unto them and said Looke yee among you seven men of honest report full of the Holy Ghost and wisedome whom we may appoint over this Businesse where yee see that the Apostles appointed their Deacons and not the People only the People sought out those seven men as knowing better what kind of men were among them then the Apostles And they presented them to the Apostles to be examined in their lives and Doctrine before the Church-Officers and to be ordained by them So that the Apostles 1. ordained the Office 2. commanded the People to seeke out honest Men. 3. examined them 4. and appointed or ordained them The people only had the power to inquire of their lives and to admit or approve them by their consent and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 5. After that They were ordained by the Church-Officers that were present in the whole Action and had seen all things passed without partiality as I have above declared 5. If the People had had any voyce here which cannot be collected out of this Text yet it should only follow that they had this power in Ecclesiâ constituendâ but not in constitutâ i. e. in the first Institution of Churches or Church-Officers but not in a Church already established and furnished with all her ordinary Church-Officers say others The Place Acts 14. verse 22. whereon they insist so much hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and when they had ordained them Elders in every Church Here they conceive that the word signifies to create Ministers by Suffrages of the People who had voyce in the creating of Elders A. To this some answer and that very probably that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath three divers significations 1. that it signifies the same that the latin word suffragari or porrectis manibus suffiagia ferre to give their approbation by lifting up or stretching out their Hands 2. to choose in any fashion whatsomever Acts 10. verse 41.3 for the imposition of Hands commonly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so it is taken in some of the Fathers Writings so they say that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here may be taken either in the second or third signification and that it cannot be proved from the Text that it is taken in the first But they take that for granted which they are not able to prove 2. Put the case it signifie here to ordaine by the Consent of the Peopte yet followes it not that this Consent of the People was a Voyce because it was not asked of every man a part neither hath the Text that nor can it be