A COOLE CONFERENCE Between the Scottish Commissioners Cleared Reformation and the Holland Ministers Apologeticall Narration brought together by a well-willer to both 1644. REformat Whilest we the meanest of many c. wait for uniformity in Religion so much desired by all the Godly in the three Kingdoms unto which an entrance is made by a solemn League and Covenant Apologet. We approve worthy brethren your expectation as just and confesse our own desires of it so as Reformation be not taken indebite in a strict stinted sence but according to your latitude expressed pag. 15. We are say you neither so ignorant nor so arrogant as to ascribe to the Church of Scotland it s your own phrase such absolute purity and perfection as hath not need or cannot admit of further Reformation So you A golden peace signifying speech as if dropped from the mouth of some Chrysostome or conceived by some Ireneus pluck you that end and we the other likewise and we shall be fastned with a Cordian knot Of which our endeavour you have a full testimony in our League and Covenant wherein we swear to indeavour the preservation of the reformed Religion in Scotland we say of Religion and Reformed is or shall be and till further reformation we will preserve it against our common enemie that you be not made to retreat from that you have wonne And that we will indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in doctrine worship discipline and government according to the Word of God the example of the best reformed Churches So farre the Covenant Wherein it is as evident as if written with a Sunne beame that the Churches of England have not ingaged themselves to come down to you or do bind you to come to us but the common rendevous where we must all meet is the best refâ—â—â—ed Churches and that according to the word of God which is that Standard of perfection that must weigh and measure out unto us our uniformity Reformat We find our selves bound against the prejudices and mistakings of some who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not and suffer their affections of love and hatred to run before their understanding and against the mis-representations and indirect aspersions of others who do so commend their own way that the reformed Churches thereby suffer disparagement to give that testimony unto the order and government of the reformed Churches and particularly of the Church of Scotland which they do well deserve Apologet. Ah deare brethren why would ye speak thus Do these expressions in the judgement of candor suit with your profession pag. 2. where you promise that you indeavour nothing but a simple and innocent manifestation and defence without desire or intention to give the smallest offence to any who fear God love the truth and c. So you Let an impartiall Angel speak whether multitudes of gracious hearts are not justly offended at this bitternesse so unseasonably administred and applied too to wrong parties Ah how easie is it by our self-mistasting hearts like the sorry Artificer that makes two cracks whiles he is patching and hammering up one rather to cause prejudices then cure them You may be confident let all the world look upon the Apologie and judge that the five Members of the Assembly cast no prejudices upon you to whom you have so hastily replied And for private barkings of inconsiderate and inconsiderable men they are either unknown or un-owned as is supposed by men of your gravitie All wise men generally are silently intentive expecting not paper replyes but disputed Positions from the Assembly grounded on Scripture And therefore this paper comes abroad onely to beseech that on either side there may be committed no more breaches of the peace Ecclesiastick and to leave the Apologie if it may be under the same candid opinion that rayed forth upon it afore this cloud came and interposed Sure if the Houses of So the Ordinance for the Assembly p. 5. Parliament allow any of the Assembly differing in opinion touching the matters proposed to them whereof Discipline is one to present their judgements with their reasons unto the said Houses you cannot judge it a crime to send forth a prodromum presented to the Parliament to tell them and you how farre they close with you and other reformed Churches and dissent from the Separation and Brownists And therefore have not deserved to be whipt with a reply Pardon the phrase for indeed it is a smart stroke upon the spirits of understanding men and standing forth in and for a publick Ecclesiasticall cause to be taxed for those who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not and to suffer their affections c. to run before their understanding c. Sweet brethren do you call your books frequent among us the government of the Church of Scotland the Assertion of your government the peaceable Plea darknesse Or do you think that the Elders of the Quinque Ecclesiae or others that study Discipline to be dark Are we not morall men voluntas vult ut intellectus intelligit to understand first and affect after Or wherein hath appeared this preposterousnesse towards you whiles the Apologie smiles upon you and sweetly cals you and Holland by name the more reformed Churches Apol p 6. do you give them one such a kind word in all your Reply And more then that you call not your selves confessing a need of further Reformation as we noted and quoted afore If then they have commended your Churches according to your own judgements of your selves how hath their commendation of other Churches appeared to discommend yours especially whiles they commend not their own for so perfect but that they found a necessity of holding this for one of their three rules by which they walked in these words Not to make our present judgement and practise a Apol. p. 10. 11. binding law unto our selves for future which we likewise made continuall profession of upon all occasions We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of conformity and therefore in a jealousie of our selves we kept this reserve which we made open and constant professions of to alter and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a misunderstanding of the rule So far the Apolog. There is yet one thing more that makes the Apologists more confident of their candor in that it received so great an approbation from so pious and learned a man of your judgement and a Member of the Assembly As on the other side though the Assembly voted you thanks yet was it onely for the books you gave them not for the Reply as it was expresse to that effect in the vote if observation fail not Reformat pag. 2. Our wayes since our coming into this Kingdom have been and so farre as the truth will suffer us ever shall be
est ordo unus inquit honor una digâ—itas Imponit manus Episcopus ita etiam Presbyter c. Epip contra haeres li. 3. To. 1. ca. 75. That to celebrate the Passeover was Jewish That the prayâ—rs of the lâ—ving did not prâ—fit the dead That their ordained set Fâ—â—sts Qâ—â—rta pro Sabbató were not to be observed Yet the same Epiphanius who flourished about the yeer 365. after Christ so long since confesseth that Aerius was not alone in this opinion but multitudes more keeping Magnum mâ—ltituâ—iâ—ent virorum aâ— muliâ—â—um allexit 〈…〉 aâ— fibrii 〈…〉 together inform of a particular Church with the said Aerius their Teacher all of them living very soberly For the two Synods you mention for want of copies of them nor do we in this businesse desire much to turn over books but take what is ready at hand unlesse hereafter we shall be forced thereunto we shall speak but a word in generall that as one of the best of our English Articles tâ—ll us 〈◊〉 have and may erre therefore Synods If Paphnutius were alive he could tell us by experience Christs enlightning and leading presence is much according to the orderly gathering and managing of Synods And for the Protestant Churches in Franâ—e If we may beleeve our eares hearing the reports of some of the Ministers of the French Churches here in England considerable too as the Dutch or our eyes in reading the Ecclesiasticall Discipline of the reformed Churches in France many materiall particulars and passages are for us which we omit here as not intending a dispute or largenesse in any thing So that if things be weighed we are not so alone or heterogeneall as that we deserve the opinion that we should not be for the Reformed Churches so far forth as they be reformed at least as much as the Presbyterians To those intimations of Reform pag. 19. that the Apologizers exile was volunâ—ary they carried away Churches with them and left the â—ther Churchâ—s that stayed behind exposed to the enemie The Apol. hath no more to say at this time but this That their exile at most was but as voluntaâ—y as the Seamens * Voluntate â—â—xta semiplena with an unwilling will casting their lading into the Sea to save themselves from drowning They took no more then Christ gave them when they persecute you in one place fly into another as Christ and his parents did And they did no more expose the Church to the enemie then as in all ages other godly Colonies of Saints have done in departing to Francfort Holland and New England lest they themselves also had been swallowed up too and the other Churches never an iota relieved by it but kept themselves for a reserve to assist the Church at their return Hoping that if they were blamed for their voluntary departing they shall not for their voluntary return to unexpose the Church to the least claw or shadow of Prelacy Reformat p. 21. Tâ— limit the conâ—iere of excommunication in matter of opinion to the common and uncontroverted principles and in The true copy of the Apology is thus Excommunication we iudge should be put in execution for no other kind of sins thâ—n may evidently bâ— presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light as whâ—ther it be a siâ— in manners conversaâ—â—n such as is câ—mmitted agâ—nâ—t the light of nature or the common receâ—ved practises of Christianity professed in the Church of Christ Or if in opinion then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity the power of godlines professed by the pâ—rty himself universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and â—â—â—thâ—r sins to be the subâ—ect of that dreadfull sâ—ntence the matter of manners to the common and universall practises of Christianitie and in both to the parties known light is the dangerâ—us doctrine of the Arminians and Socinians openeth a wide doore and proclaimeth liberty to all other practises and errours which are not fundamentall 〈◊〉 uâ—iversally abhorred by all Christians and tendeth to the overthâ—â—w of the Reformed Religion which we wish all sound and sober spiâ—its tâ— abstain frâ—m lest it render them and their profession suspected of sâ—me suâ—â—â—â—â—panions 〈◊〉 and practises as in chariâ—ie we judge to be faâ— from their minds and 〈◊〉 Apâ—lâ—g If Pagans and Infidels do not practise and Papists Prelates Sâ—â—inians Aâ—minians Bâ—ownists Separatists c. do not hold some common truths with Christians as sence is common to men and be but condoll our condition that when we assert against mis-opinion of us that we give to Magistrates as much as the Presbyterians do we are compared to Pagans Infidels Prelates c. as bringing the way of Christ into hate with Princes when we speak for a conforming of Church government to the closest agreement with the Scriptures we are compared to Brownâ—sts Sâ—paratists Independents and Popular Anarchie When we judge that excommunication should not be but of persons presumed to sin against their own light c. we are compared to Sâ—cinians and Arminians if not semi-suspected to be such though not by any English heart If these be right forms of confutation the common people will begin to pride up themselves as to have said somewhat to the Question now in controversie whiles they assert instead of better arguments that a Bishop is a Presbytery contracted and a Presbytery is a Bishop diffused The former is as a president the other as a Commission exercised by many Doth not this very particular of excommunication testifie for us that the Congregational way doth leave more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterie do Many offences are to be punished bodily by the Civill Magistrate that are not to be censured with that spirituall highest censure of Excommunication Which being a shutting out of heaven and a giving up to Satan had need of better grounds then mens sinning of simplicitie or ignorance The very Prelates at least pretended wilfull obstinacy for their Excommunications And the great punishment of Excommunication inflicted for small faults will make the punishment at last small in the eyes of men But if it be restrained to great faults against the parties light men will think the punishment to be like the sin And yet no doare set open to other vices which Civil power may punish externally for the fact whiles Churches look upon faults spiritually in relation to the mind with what will they were committed Reformat pag. 23. Two maine objections are made against the principles and practise of the order and government of the Reformed Churches One is that there is no need of authoritative power of Presbyteries and Synods and that the exhortation of particular Churches one to another the Protestati noâ— one against another and the withdrawing of communion one from another may be a sufficient remedie and no lesse effectuall against all offences then Excommunication it self especially if the Magistrate shall vouchsafe his assistance
and interpose his authoritie for strengthning thâ— sentence of Non communion Apolog. There is not one word in the Apologies discourse of this point to extenuate the power of Synods which being according to the Scriptures they hold them in the highest esteeme that ever the Scripture advanced them to And on the other side they there give us an expresse that besides the said exhortations protestations and Non communion that they professe themselves ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse to the civill Magistrate interposing a power of another nature upon his particular cognizance and examination of such causes Reformat pag. 21. 22. To the said objection we answer 1 for there are 5 answers by way of direct confutation that this objection supposeth a case which hath not been found in the Church of Scotland for the space of eightie yeers and beleeve was never heard of in any of the Reformed Churches except those of the Separation the pronouncing of Non communion or Excommunication against a whole Church Our Excommunication hath been executed but seldome against particular members never against a whole Church and we think never shall be and therefore this imaginarie fear of that which never falleth out is not considerable rules are made for ordinarie and usuall cases Apolog. Who that have seriously read and weighed the Apologie and therein their disclaiming of the Separation properly so called their owning the Churches of Scotland and many in England for true Churches their just account of their practise in Holland and their proceedings towards the Church mistaking would after all this call the Apologizers Churches Churches of the Separation unlesse withall they exprest they meant Separation from the Prelates wayes as Scotland and England now do But what ever true Churches be named we see no reason though others beleeve quod factum non est nec fieri potest that which never hath been never shall be but that they may be incident and liable to fall into that case of having to do with a whole particular Church erring especially till those swarmes of Anabaptists Antinomians c. which have been so oft intimated and sounded in our eares be allayd You brethren your selves suppose more and therefore you may suppose the lesse For in your second answer to this objection as you call it you suppose that two or more Churches may mutually protest and pronounce the sentence of non communiâ—â— one against another In which case say you pronouncing of non comâ—â—â—ion would prove rather a meane of division then of union and there wouâ—d be no remedy where the censure is mutuall to compose this difference unlesse there be a common Presbytery or Synod made up of the whole To which we answer that this case hath befallen Provinces and National prelaticall Churches in matter of Excommunication too each of them having a severall Pope in them have excommunicated one another And we see not that antidote in one of the wayes you mention namely a Classicall Provinciall Presbytery but that one provinciall Presbytery may protest against and excommunicate the other For the other way for you propound two and we are willing to take the best namely a Nationall Synod gathered and guided according to the Scriptures we willingly embrace And they that will not take the judgement of such a Synod having no Scripture to alledge justly against their resolutions let them fall into the hands of the Magistrate the Preserver of the publick peace This same reply serves to your third and fourth answer We need adde but a word in reply to your fifth answer wherein you demand by what probability it can be made to appear to any rationall man and indifferent mind that no authoritie shall be as valid as authoritie against the obstinate that Via admonitionis requisitionis is equall with Via citationis publicae authoritatis To which we answer that if it be stated that that is authoritie which is Scripture authoritie and not else and that to be most valid that convinceth and conquers actus elicitos the mind rather then that which doth onely manacle and constraine actus imperatâ—s the outward carriage the demand is soon answered Is the way of admonition protestation and non communion no authoritie Is that no authoritie that tels us we must give no offence Better a milstone were hanged about ones neck and he cast into the Sea then to offend a weaker brother That we were better not eat flesh then to offend c. Or is it no authoritie when a whole Church after fasting and prayer and clear disputation shall tell the obstinate erring that upon those grounds they will withdraw from them as from Heathens and Publicans The truth is that the prelaticall men have made much use of this your case alledged to plead for Bishops as most necessarie to keep Churches in union But Gods authoritie held forth to us in the judgements of Nationall Synods according to the Word will prove more effectuall then any humane instituted way whatsoever to unite Churches Reformat pag. 24. The other objection is that by this authoritie and order of government one Church hath power over another which is contrarie to that libertie and equalitie Christ hath endewed his Churches with and is no other but a nâ—w prelaticall dominion set over the Churches of Christ To this say you we answer 1 That we are far from imposing any such câ—llâ—terall power The power which we maintain is aggregative of the Offiâ—ers of many Congregations over the particular members in which as in the naturall and politick body one member is not subject to another but is to the whole 2 It is say you a miserable mistake to compare Presbyteries and Prelates together For the Courts of Prelates are altogether fâ—rrain and extrinsecall in the Congregations over which they rule But the power of Presbyteries is intrinsecall and naturall they being constitute of the Pastors and Elders of the particular Congregations â—ver which they are set So that another without themselves doth not bear rule over them but all of them by common consent do rule over every one which is no more then â—â—r a membâ—â—â—f a particular Congregation to be ruled by his own particular Eldâ—â—ship Fâ—r they disâ—ern no sentence of excommunication of any member without the knowledge and consent of the particular Congregation that is particularly concerned therein Apolog. You say you impose nâ—t a collaterall power Sure your laws do impose that one congregation shall be subject to the Elders suppose of twenty congregations And the authority of 19 of them is as â—â—llaterall The congregations every one chose their own officers to rule over themselves in the Lord. But we heare not you say that they chose their Officers to rule over themselves and others though we hear you say that the Officers themselves are readie enough to consent so to rule which is as extrinsecall as Episcopacie if Episcopacie be as intrinsecall as Presbyterie For are not Bishops chosen by the people at their instalment where customarily people are allowed to make any just exception and hath in part been practised in England though with little successe in their domineering times Just as anciently as Hieronimus tels us Vnus eligebatur qui caeteris preponoretur c. To avâ—id schisme one of the classâ—â—all Presbytery was chosen to be as Chaiâ—-man over them all in their Consistorie who from being so annually at last became so for his life time and so hence was born Episcopacy Besides we know that the Bishop and his Chaplains Chancellour Archdeacon Register c. were parishioners within their own Diocesse if not Elders or Officers in their severall congregations And people formerly have been as willing they should reigne as ever any people were in your Kingdom to have the Presbyterie over them And the Bishops on the other side did as cunningly comply with the Congregations they grounding their Court proceedings upon the Church-wardens or Parish Elders presentments upon the peoples complaints and testimony and did not passe an Excommunication without the subscription of the hand of a Minister or two of that Archdeaconrie or Countie-Presbyterie and last of all the Excommunication was not pronounced without the consent of the Minister of the particular Congregation So that it is clear it is not peoples consent onely but if according to the Word that makes a government lawfull God hath chalked out to us patterns of people chusing Officers for the congregation And congregations chusing men for Synods or Councels but not as we conceive of chusing men to make a middle classicall Presbyterie What ever plausible shews of reason may seem to commend a way yet onely Gods way shall have the blessing of God upon it And if it cannot be resolved on all hands as yet clearly which is it let that your golden speech be written upon all your actions That thâ—se that are mâ—st averse to ☜ Reform p. 26. Presbytery if they allow no materiall difference in doctrine worship or practise might injâ—y their peace and all comforts of their Ministery and profession under it without controlment of that authoritative power which they so much apprehend We have been of late made to fear the contrary by the reports of some not of meanest rank of your own Nation but now we desire rather to hope upon your words here given under your own hands then fear by reason of theirs Trusting also that as you were kindly invited to our Assembly so you will be as helpfull to our poore Churches as your Armies by Godâ— blessing are like to be the Common-wealth according as both Nations have vowed to indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the Word of God 〈◊〉 p. 26. We crave leave to conclude with your own words hoping we may as confidently speak them as you did namely That so much for the present have we said not for confutation but meerly for justifying our own and other reformed Churches against such mis-representings and mistakings as in matters of Religion are too frequent in this place aâ— this time c. FINIS
and practise which in effect you professe pag. 15. saying that the Church of Scotland may admit of further reformation Therefore it is supposed that for the present you onely practise some things of reformation and that for future when you have more light and power you will advance from your present practise to a further Reformat pag. 6. They did honour Luther and Calvin c. who had an heart or band c. in the blessed work of Reformation c. But for this to call us Calvinians and the reformed Churches Calvinian reformed Churches is to disgrace the true Churches of Christ and to symbolize with the Papists who call themselves the Catholick Church c. The Separation may be well allowed to be called Brownists Apologet. Ah brethren from what spirit comes all this The whole designe of framing a confutation of a plain simple modest single hearted narration relished bitter upon multitudes of godly and judicious palates But here we have met if we mistake not the drug with the Coloquintida or if it be intended for a better Recipe it is scalding hot if our taste fails us not Can the Apologie possibly be conceived in the word Calvinian to intend the least grain of disgrace to any Is it not the terme used in all the true Christian Churches for distinctions sake from the more corrupt Lutheran Is it not in opposition to them more corrupt a terme of honour Was it not used of purpose to decline the word Presbiterian that lesse offence might be taken whiles the termes now in controversie were waved Doth not the Apologie deeply professe that multitudes of Churches in England were true Churches and yet for honour of you cals the Churches of Scotland more reformed But you object that this is to symbolize with the Papist who call themselves the Catholick Church we take your objection to be our full answer As sure as the Papists do not intend to disgrace themselves in calling themselves Catholicks so sure is it beleeved that the Apologists who are Calvinians in Doctrine at least if not more did not intend to disgrace themselves and the brethren holding the same doctrine and truth with the terme Clavinian Yet as if in revenge you ding Apol. p. 5. the words Separation and Brownists against the Apologists who had so clearly renounced that rigid opinion and way in their Apologie As if you had forgotten or did intend to mis-apply what you had said but the next line afore quoted out of Hierom. viz. If any where we find men professing Christianity called by the particular names of men know them to be the synagogue of Antichrist and not the Church of Christ Oh unhappie conjunction oh heavy application oh coal-black termes Quod ego Sed motos praestat componere fluctus Were it not for patience nay that would hardly do it were it not for reverence of you and your Nation an home answer would be shaped to such a mis-shapen misprision But to love is to live The Kingdom is on fire we need not hold coals to one another Peace be upon the sons of peace But let not that imputation fall upon us to set our houses on fire to rost our own egges Reformat pag. 10. Nothing was farrer from their thoughts and intentions then to frame in their own forge a lesbian rule answerable to any particular form of civill policy or compliable with State ends Apolog. Whether these words in the Apologie pag. 3. for you tread upon the heels of the Apologie step after step We had no nâ—w Common-wealths to reare to frame Church government unto do provoke to any such answer let all indifferent men judge For who doth not know that you had no new Common-wealths to reare This might farre easier been understood of New England and yet without surmise of any blame laid upon them who had the Kings Patent for what they did in policy as Gods Word for Church government which they have followed close with a great deal of judgement Reformat pag. 11. Nor do we know any reason why education in sâ—und dâ—ctrine and true worship should be accounted a matter of thankesgiving to God and yet should glory in this that we are not by education ingaged iâ— any one form of Discipline and Church government but left to our selves to be moulded by our own private thoughts Apolog. There is no such doxologie in the Apologie as to thank God for their disengagednesse from or non education in true reformed Churches They expresse their sorrow that the defilement of the Churches of England caused their exilement oâ—t of the Churches of England Their naked words are onely these We were not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the Apol. p. 4. reformed Churches And for your intimated charge of being left to themselves to be mâ—ulded by their own private thoughts touching Church government their own words do most transparently clear them Wâ— were not engaged say they by education c. to other of the reformed Apol. p. 4. Churches yet we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in writings and practise We had the advantage of all that light which the câ—â—flicts of our Divines the good old No conformists had struck forth in their times and the dâ—â—ughts of Discipline which they had drawn We had likewise the fatall miscarriages and shipwracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as land-marks to forewarne us of those rocks and 〈◊〉 they ran upon and tâ— enquire into the principles that might be the câ—â—ses â—f their divisions Last of all we had the recent and later examples of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better edition and greater reâ—â—â—ement c. of those multiâ—udes of godly men of our own Natiâ—◠〈◊〉 to the number of mother Nation and among them some as holy and judiâ—iâ—us Diviâ—es as this Kingdom hath bred All which we looked upon nakedly according to the Word of God Thus the Apologie Out of which words the venemous spider of envy cannot much lesse you brethren that are men of a better spirit extract and draw justly this conclusion That the Apologists intended to mould a government in and by their own private thoughts They were not so left to themselves by the oppositions of the times but that they carried with them the golden measuring reed of the Word of God and did with all the judgement and divine assistance they had measure and square every inch as they built Nor doth it yet appear to some that wishly look after these things in what materiall things their buildings differ from others unlesse about the generall and common roofe whether it shall be the monstrous Arches of Episcopacy or the cemented vault of a classicall Presbytery or of Jerusalem work of an Apostolicall Councell And this maine question is now among them Quos penes arbitrium est vis norma loquendi Reformat pag. 11. The Churches planted by the Apostles if not at