State-ends and politicall interests namely â—…at when some great persons Lords and others should be forced through the badnesse of the times as was expected and feared to seek for shelter in Providence and Hispaniâ—…la you might be there ready to remoove with them and be taken along into those Countreyes where you hoped to set up new Churches and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over into your mould Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne as they had by this Parliament then also by being in Holland rather then New-England you were nigh hand and your estates more at command quickly to returne to England having this Kingdome in your eye hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-goverâ—…ent or else gaine a great party to you 〈◊〉 the Kingdome which we see is unhappily fallen out And 〈◊〉 all the State-ends and interests to come which you might loâ—…ke upon in your remooving to Holland there were worldly râ—…spects and interests for the present to make you goe in the Churâ—…-way as I have before observed And to all these whereas yoâ—… make the having no new-Common-wealths no Kingdomes to eye to frame Church-government unto as the ground of falling upon the right way Let it be considered by you and the Reader that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons either in a Plantation or as strangers in a Common-wealth and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome is that very thing that deceives you there being alia ratio urbis ac orbis and so a great difference of governing a family two or three or of a Towne and of governing a Nation and Kingdome But as for that Parenthesis you make before you end this Section That your Governement will bâ—… coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governmeâ—… on earth out of the great care you have least your Church-gâ—…nment should suffer in the thoughts of many that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government 't is so farre from truth that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government no not with Democraticall government much lesse Aristocraticall or Monarchicall but should it be but tolerated much more established as the government in a Kingdome and Nation we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse In this Intervall of Church-government we feele without a formall toleration of it woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government And I desire to know from you how you will proove it and we shall be assured of it for we dare not take your bare word seeing that never yet any Kingdome or Nation entertained your Church-way and government there being yet no experiment of it which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares And I must tell you that in New-England which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation when they began to multiply and encrease this government had like to have ruined them both in Church and Common-wealth and had they not enterposed and since doe daily the power of the Magistrate and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way they had been ruined before this and what yet will be the issue unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency a little time will shew and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practisâ—… yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our first Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine in which they had a most happy hand And 〈◊〉 had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not beeâ—… advanced and held forth among them as in this our Island as themselves have generally acknowledged We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines the good old Non-conformists had struck forth in their times And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn which we found not in all things the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches And â—…hat they had written came much more commended to us not only because they were our own but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings We had likewise the fatâ—…ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarne us of thâ—…se rocks and shelves they ran upon which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions Last of all We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-mentioned helps of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation and among them some as holy and judicioâ—… Divines as this Kingdome hath bred whose sincerity in theâ—… way hath been testified before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey and his sâ—…ed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and and that by sea into a wildernesse meerely to worship God more purely whither to allure them there could be no other invitement And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches and this nakedly according to the word We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any though never so much differing from us yea orposite unto us It may be if you had been engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches that you had seen the order and peace in some of the Reformed Churches and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches but to what end is this brought in with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page We had we had with that passage in the close of the last Section We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to
all under his power and charge to worship God upon which learned Divines as Zanchius excellently show the dutie of Magistrates in reference to commanding and providing that their people shall worship God according to his will Rom. 13. 4. Ephes. 5. 11. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Iohn 11. v. Revel 〈◊〉 20. with many other places in Scripture of removing away of evill and of not consenting to evill c the Parliament is bound to establish and to command obedience to that Reformation which is judged most agreeable to the Word and to suppresse and hinder all other It was excellently done by the Parliament to call together so many able godly and Orthodox Divines to debate and find out the mind and will of God for Doctrine Worship and Discipline and to give libertie to men of different judgements to bring in their grounds and after all wayes of enquiry and searching into truth and a Modell drawn up for them upon good grounds being satisfied 't is their dutie by their power and authoritie to bind men to the decrees of the Assembly and not to tolerate any other Doctrines Churches Worship or Government to be set up and exercised you ought not to suffer the weake to be destroyed nor the people to be drawn away by every wind of doctrine but when once upon good grounds the Reformation is concluded you must defend it against troublesome and turbulent spirits and in so doing God will be with you and subdue the people under you whereas if to please some people you suffer them to enjoy their own way God will not be well pleased with it neither can you answer it unto God You may lawfully nay ye ought in that which is good to compell men though they pretend conscience shall the errours of other mens consciences hindr you from yeelding that service which God requiteth of you may a Parliament displease God to please men or may they be pleaseâ—…s of other mens sins and wink at evill to content some persons No Parliaments in making lawes for Religion must depend on the will of God â—…led in his Word in the best and 〈◊〉 wayes communicated to them and not upon the consciences of some people 〈◊〉 The Toleration desired is against the solemne League and Covenant for Reformation taken by the Parliament and the Kingdome of England and Scotland and 〈◊〉 be coâ—…ed to without 〈◊〉 of that Oath and Covenant so that the Apologie and motion for a Toleration comes â—…o late the doore is shut against it the Kingdomes hands are bound so that if such a Toleration were not in itâ—… selfe unlawfull and against the dutie of the Magistrate yet now because of the Oath and Covenant 't is unlawfull so that whatever might have been granted before cannot now lest the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant-breaking Now aâ—… Toleration and this moving for a Toleration by the Apologists is expresly against these branches of the Covenant 1. Against that clause in the first branch of endeavouring the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ixeland in Doctrine Worship Government and Discipline according to the Example of the best Reformed Churches now in this Petition to both Houses you would be exempted from the Reformation of the best Reformed Churches so that unlesse you understand the Brownists new-New-England or your own Churches to be the best Reformed you have broken your Covenant but though you may understand it so and may be tooke the Covenant in that sense yet I suppose you cannot think the Paâ—…liament whom you sâ—… to for a Toleration took the best Reformed Churches in that acception but for the Reformed Churches so called and commonly knowne as of France c. so that their granting a Toleration would be against this clause of the best Reformed Churches 〈◊〉 't is expresly against another clause in the firsâ—… branch And shâ—…ll endeavouâ—… to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformity in Religion Confession of Faith Forme of Church Government Directory soâ—… Worship and Catechiâ—…ing Now if the Parliament hath covenanted so how can it grant a Toleration of so different a Forme of Church Government and Worship as the Independent way is from the Presbyteriall and how can you be excused from explicite formall breach of Covenant in this part of your Apologie having sworne and subâ—…bed to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in these three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion who in stead of so labouring and endeavouring or ever so much as trying whether you with the rest of the Churches may not be brought into a neere Conjunction and Uniformitie just before the time the Assembly was comming to fall upon these points in difference to put out this Apologie and to move for a Toleration before hearing what could be said to you for satisfaction or ever debating the points in the Assembly Is this to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion c. before so much as ever debating points to conclude magisterially as you doe in pages 22. and 24. against the Reformed Churches and to desire an exemption from Conjunction and Uniformitie with the rest of the Churches in this Kingdome 3. 'T is against that clause in the second branch that we shall in like manner without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatever shall be found contrary to found doctrine and the power of Godlinesse lest we partake in other mens sins Now that which you move for is schisme and contrary to sound Doctrine the Church-way being a schisme besides many of your Church Principles are against sound Doctrine and the power of Godlinesse as that in your Apologie about the subject of Excommunication as that of a few people having power to joyne together and set up a Church and chuse what Ministers they will as that of the Independencie of particular Congregations from any Authenitative power c. so that the Parliament in the midst of their Reformation and blessed Conjunction according to the Word of God with the Reformed Churches should in allowing you a Toleration suffer a formall schisme both in Worship and Government in the midst of these Kingdomes 4ly This Toleration sued for is against a part of the fourth branch endeavouring the discovery of such as have been evill Instruments by hindring Reformation of Religion or making any faction or parties amongst the people contrary to this League and Covenant Now the Parliament is bound by this against all persons and things which hinder the Reformation and makes any faction or parties amongst the people now whether a Toleration granted yea but moved for would not hinder the Reformation of Religion and make Faction and parties amongst the people let it be considered I confesse I wonder how the Apologists ever took this Covenant or having taken
spirited men and of the vulgar and all kind of spirits But before I leave this passage of yours concerning the Separation pray let me aske you the reason of this Parenthesis and to whom you speake it whom ye call Brownists and why could you not have writ who are commmonly called Brownists Is it not to both the Houses of Parliament to whom this Apologie is presented and to whom you appeale your discourse being carried as spoken to them and does not this phrase of speech carry with it a secret checke of the Houses for calling the Separatists Brownists calling them so as you would not call them But who are you that you may not speake for so much as concernes this in the language of both Houses if both Houses call them Brownists Why may not you Five terme them so but we may guesse the Reason Mr Browne and your Principles are too nigh a kinde and you feared lest you might be called so but let me tell you though the Reformed Churches may not be called disgracefully Calvinians as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland have well observed in their late book yet the Separatists and all Sectaries may fitly be termed from the Authours and so the Separatists justly called Brownists because as he was one of the first Leaders in that way so he was the first that digested that way into forme and method and writ so for it and the first that visibly and openly drew so many out of this Kingdome beyond the Seas and therefore both Houses of Parliament and others too may truly terme those who goe in Brownes-way Brownists As for that last passage in this Section that last of all We had the recent and laâ—…er example of the wayes and practises of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation c. which without so many words you might have said New-England but that on purpose you would take an occasion of extolling them to the Heavens and so render both your selves and way in them more glorious both to the Parliament and people into whose hands your Apologie should come Sure you might more truly and ingeniously have put them in the first place and have writ First of all We had the recent and later example of New-England which wrought to my knowledge with some of you very much and that the purposes and intentions of some of you were first for New-England as you may remember some of you told me One of you marrying a wife in reference to your going to New-England and how farre he was hindered or altered by her death he knowes Another of you having sent over goods before and in particular books where he meant to follow after I have a very bad memory if these things be not so A third namely Mr Simpson when he desired his dismission from that Church at Rotterdam he alleadged that as a cause that he was intended for New-England but I must examine the Encomium made by you here of New-England and see whether to make it hold the words must not have the allowance of that figure in Rhetorick called Hyperbole the first part of the praise is Multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation Are the godly men in New-England so many in number that they are almost the number of another Nation that they doe almost make such another Nation as England then New-England hath more godly persons in it then old England for the multitudes of godly persons amongst us are not almost so many here as to make another Nation but it will be found that granting all the men in New-England were godly which yet you dare not affirme seeing multitudes live there without the Church who are not accounted visible Saints yet what are they to so many people as are in England reckon up all the persons in New-England good and bad and list them and they will be found not to come almost to the number of the Nation that lives in London nay hardly to come to the twentieth part there What are they then in New-England to this whole Kingdome and then doe but substract all that are not of their Church and it is evident your affection is better to New-England then your Arithmeticke and in this particular that Proverbe of Almost must help you But shall I give you the reason of this stretching here 'T is to possesse the Parliament and Kingdome what a great party you have for your Church-way Almost another Nation in New-England and Almost another Nation of your way in old England which may serve to ballance your opposite party of Presbytery in England and Scotland and therefore the Parliament shall doe well to take notice of your Numbers to grant you a Toleration at least of your Church-way lest you being such multitudes should c. I could tell stories what some of your way have spoken if they might not have their way but I shall spare them now The second part of your praise of New-England is And among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdome hath bred That there are holy and good Divines among them whom I truly love and honour I acknowledge but I judge this too transcendent a phrase and more then befits the words of sobernesse Some as holy and judicious as this Kingdome hath bred It had been an expression high enough to say as holy and judicious Divines as any you now know in this Kingdome but to say as this Kingdome hath bred how know you that and how can you affirm it You were not acquainted with many who lived before being all young men to speake of so that there might be before your times men more judicious and holy and if we may judge by the works of some men and by their lives written and by the reports from good hands of the godly ancient Ministers there were men more judicious and learned then any now in New England as Whitaker Reynolds Brightman and others and more holy as Mr Greenham Mr Banes old Mr. Dod c. But for the holy and judicious Divines of New England there are not above three or foure at most were ever accounted so eminent I might say but two and yet the present age hath Divines in England to compare with them both for learning judiciousnesse and piety so as you needed not to have gone backe to the ages past Take the prime man of them all in new England and yet he is not to be accounted as judicious and learned as ever any this kingdome bred Doctor Whitakers never held any opinion that was accounted erroneous nor any private peculiar opinion but what was commonly held in the Church of God as it is reported in his life but the most eminent Minister in new-New-England though he be an excellent and worthy man hath had his errours and I referre you for proofe to his Discourse about clearing the Doctrine of Reprobation which is in some of your hands
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangâ—…r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjâ—…cting them to Presbytâ—…riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiâ—…y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ—… great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
issue and all is resolved into the body of the Congregation and their power from first to last amongst the Apologists as well as amongst the Brownists though here 't is carried in a fairer way as fine wits must doe and that they may have something to say wherein they are not Brownists but of this the Reader may see more in this Answer page 204 205 206. 8. The Presbyteriall way the order and governmeâ—… of the reformed Churches hath been countenanced from Heaven and blessed from above with the preservation of the truth and unitie of Religion against heresies and errors in Doctrine Idolatry and corruption in worship and all sorts of sects and â—…chisme it hath been free of those mischiefes and evills of errors and divisions which the Independent Churches have swarmed with and that through a long tract of time and the experience of almost a hundred yeeres together In reformed Churches where this government hath been set up and hath had its free way and exercise even where it hath wanted the advantages of the Magistrate being a member of the Church and hath had many disadvantages in regard of the spirits and dispositions of the people with many temptations to errors yet it hath in those places kept out errors and schismes preserved puritie of doctrine and peace For example in the Churches of France it is evident by many yeeres experiences though their Princes be popish and they live in the midst of Papists yet by Gods blessing upon their government and order their Churches have been and are pure in doctrine few or none falling to Popery Arminianisme or to sects and schâ—…smes and when any errors doe arise amongst them yet by meanes of that governement they are soone suppressed and prevented from spreading It was the observation of Beza in his time of the French Churches though France was grievously afflicted and oppressed by many yet for that which concerned Religion it was free from all troubles and stirrs And yet notwithstanding there was nothing wanting of all those things by which Satan might easily draw and move the French to all kind of troubles for example an inbred naturall lightnesse in that Nation wits very ready for subtiltie and â—…iceties the mind of the Magistrates intent also upon it that all manner of wayes the Christian Churches might destroy themselves with their inward dissentions notwithstanding all this no strength of the adversaries hitherto no not in the midst of all the tempests of warre hath been able to beare thorough the most strong buâ—…warke and wall of Ecclesiasticall discipline For the Church of Scotland I have heard it often and that from good hands that during the free use and exercise of Presbyteriall government there never any heresie or schisme tooke the third man but by meanes of that governement it hath been pul'd up at first and either the particular person broaching the errour recovered or however prevented before three have beene infected with it Beza in his first Epistle gives a notable testimony to this government by the blessing of God upon it in the City of Geneva Geneva be it spoken without offence hath rather escaped then overcome all the inward tempests against Religion so great as no City perhaps under Heaven hath done the like it never yet felt any differences nor contentions of the Pastors amongst themselves in points of doctrine 't is free from the furies of the Anabaptists the contagion of the Libertines the blasphemies of Servetians a City otherwise open to all strangers and comers and for that cause very fit and subject to the wiles of Satan But truly it owes all this by Gods blessing to the Ecclesiasticall discipline duely and diligently observed which also now causes that all sorts almost out of all nations under Heaven there gathered together in peace and in true liberty of conscience doe willingly accord together The Commissioners of the Church of Scotland tell us that this government hath made the Church of Christ terrible as an army with banners and like a strong and fenced City against which the adversaries have despaired to prevaile but by making a breach in this wall and where they have gained ground or gotten any advantage either the wall hath not been built or being built hath been broken down or not vigilantly kept by the watchmen But there will be objected against this a passage lately printed in a book of Mr Simpsons that there have beene as great defections both of Ministers and people unto errors under Presbyteriall government as under any other as it is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists Socinians I have instanced in severall reformed Churches and showed Gods blessing upon Presbyteriall government here 's only one instance among all the reformed Churches brought against it and to that I shall give these three answers Though the Churches in the Low-Countries are Presbyteriall yet withall ther 's a Toleration of other Churches and government there which is one of the causes of it and hinders Presbyteriall government A Toleration will spoile any Church and government if Presbyteriall government be setled and a Toleration given in this Land that will marre all so that the Parliament may be pleased to take notice by this and observe the difference between those Churches which have no Tolerations as Scotland Geneva and the Low-Countries which grant a Toleration the one are pure in doctrine c. the other makes Ministers and people turne Arminians Socinians c. 2 Answ. There 's another Reason why it may so fall out in the Low-Countries because Presbyteriall government hath not its free course there in Synods but 't is much disturbed over 't is in France Geneva Scotland whereas by their Canons and Constitutions in the Netherlands there should be a Nationall Synod once in three yeeres they have not nor cannot procure one in twenty yeeres and upwards and whereas Provinciall Synods should be yeerely they have them in some Provinces but once in five and seven yeeres besides there are other disturbances in Presbyteriall government which hinders the free course of it in Holland many encroachments are made upon the rights of their Church due to them by vertue of their discipline and heretofore established In a word that Anabaptisticall and Familisticall spirit in many and that corrupt spirit and principles in others with those principles of Toleration doth much check and stop Presbyteriall government from having its perfect worke and bringing forth its full effects The true Reason of so many Ministers and people turning Arminians and Socinians in the Low-Countries was the want of Synods which Arminius and his followers alwayes declined and by flattering the Magistrates kept off for many yeares in which time so many fell whereas if Presbyteriall government had had its course and a Nationall Synod had been called yea but a Provinciall for the Arminians to have answered in at first before it had so much
HAving diligently perused this Antapologia I find it so full and just and necessary an examination and discovery of the Apologeticall Narration both in matters of fact and of opinion that because I dare not as too many have the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons I approve it to be imprinted and commend it Reader to thy most serious consideration Ia. Cranford ANTAPOLOGIA Or A Full Answer to the Apologeticall Narration OF Mr Goodwin Mr Nye Mr Sympson Mr Burroughs Mr Bridge Members of the Assembly of Divines Wherein is handled many of the Controversies of these Times viz. 1. Of a particular visible Church 2. Of Classes and Synods 3. Of the Scriptures how farre a Rule for Church Government 4. Of Formes of Prayer 5. Of the Qualifications of Church members 6. Of SubmissioÌ„ Non-CoÌ„munioÌ„ 7. Of Excommunication 8. Of the Power of the Civill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticals 9. Of Separation and Schisme 10. Of Tolerations and particularly of the Toleration of Independencie 11. Of Suspension from the Lords Supper 12. Of Ordination of Ministers by the people 13. Of Church Covenant 14. Of Non-residencie of Church-members Humbly also submitted to the Honourable Houses of Parliament By THOMAS EDWARDS Minister of the Gospel Ephes. 4. 14. That we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slâ—…ight of men and cunning craftinesse whereby they lie in wait to deceive Vers. 〈◊〉 But speaking the truth in love may grow up into him in all things which is the head even Christ. Matth. 24. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desart go not forth Behold he is in the secret chambers believe it not Augustinus Vincentio epist. 48. Non enim propter malos boni deserendi sed propter bonos mali tolerandi â—…ti sicut toleraverunt prophetae contra quos 〈◊〉 dicebant 〈◊〉 communionem sacramentorum illius populi relinquebant Bezae epist. prima D'Andreae Duditio lactabimusne libertatem conscientiis permittendam esse Minime ut haec quidem liberta intelligitur id est ut quo quisque modo volet Deum colat Est enim hoc mere diabolicum dogma Sinendum esse unumquemque ut si volet pereat Et illa est diabolica libertas quae Poloniam Transylvaniam hodiè tot pestibus implevit quas nullae alioqui sub sole regiones toleratent London Printed by G. M. for Ralph Smith at the Bible in Cornhill neer the Royall Exchange 1644. To the tender Consciensed scrupulous doubting Christian. DEare and beloved Christians for your salâ—…es in speciall who are apt to be troubled with many doubts and feares about the Constitution and Government of the visible Church and the way of Worship and Communion in it have I drawn up this present Answer as to undeceive you in the Apologists the Apologie and their Church-way so to satisfie you in your scruples and doubts about Presbyterie It was my love care and respect to tender consciences that more especially moved me at first now some seven yeares agoe to fall upon the more thorough studying and searching into the controversies of the Church c. And the grounds which now of late have afresh revived my thoughts and studies that way are 1. The recovering and reducing conscientious Christians who are not too far engaged 2. The setling some who are wavering and doubtfull 3. The keeping of others from falling Now the first borne of my latter thoughts and studies in this kind is this Antapologiâ—… which I here recommend to you for a true glasse to behold the faces of Presbyterie and Independencie in with the beauty order strength of the one and the deformity disorder and weaknesse of the other And good Reader I have some reason to beleeve and hope that if you will indeed reade and consider looke impartially and throughly into this glasse you may be either changed into the image of it or at least so stumbled at Independencie as to be kept from falling into it and willing in the meane time to waite upon God in that way of his an Assembly of so many learned and godly Divines to see what he will be pleased to speake by them I at first intended and accordingly provided materials for a large Epistle to this Book the more to make way for it in the hearts and consciences of the people as well knowing there are laid in before hand by many of the Independent party many prejudices both against my person and the Book to hinder if possible the fruit and benefit of it yea to keep people from so much as reading any part of it that so receiving and beleeving the Independent Grounds without hearing or examining the other side they may be still kept in ignorance and error I had many thoughts and purposes in my Epistle to have given the Reader an accompt of my especiall call to the making this Answer as also to have laid downe the Principles and Rules I more especially went by in the studying of these controversies and then to have Apologized for my selfe and Book by answering some objections and clearing aspersions cast abroad in this mistaking age and by representing to the Reader my many sufferings constant labours c. and so to have compared my grounds moving me to make this Antapologia with the Apologists grounds occasioning their Apologeticall Narration and my Principles with their three Principles expressed in their Apologie and my sufferings troubles patience and labours with their exile and patience c. and then left them to the Reader to judge in those matters between us but conceiving the danger of this way in comparing with the Apologists least I might become a foole in glorying and runne into the same fault I charge upon the Apologists and least it might be thought I sought to commend my Answer by such wayes rather then by the strength of the discourse it selfe I resolved to forbeare all those comparisons and vindications of my selfe and to refer all to God and that I may not hold the Reader too long in the portch I will only insist somewhat upon justifying and clearing the lawfulnesse of the way and manner of this Answer and the grounds I goe upon for matters of fact reported in it and this I must doe of necessitie for besides other grounds calling for it within these few dayes just before the Antapologie was comming forth a Pamphlet entituled The Anatomist Anatomized was printed rather to prepossesse the Reader against the Antapologie then to answer the Anatomie of Independencie as all may see and to be a shelter rather against this shower as the Anatomizer calls it ready to fall then to dry up the drops already fallen But 〈◊〉 shall by the helpe of God not only satisfie the Reader that this covering is too narrow and the stuffe too slight to keep out the shower from wetting but make an advantage of it even
worship God acceptably and so most according to his word unlesse to insinâ—…ate and to cast an aspersion upon all others they had so and so and they were engaged by Education and otherwise a fine Râ—…hetoricall way of casting blemishes upon all others and freeing your selves as much as in plaine English to say That State-ends politicall interests preferments and worldly respects ingagements by Education and such like with the streame of publike interest might beare all others down that they should not find out the truth but you alas good men so fâ—…e from having any thing to doe in this world or regarding worldly preferments or hanging upon great persons that you must needs find out the truth But as you would bring Education in and conversing with the Reformed Churches as the by as to draw many to the Presbyteriall way So let me tell you though you were noâ—… engaged any way to the Reformed Churches of Europe yet you were many wayes to the Reformed Churches of New-England and to some prime mâ—…n in New-England by a high admiration of them One of you more especially was so eâ—…aged in his high thoughts of one of the Ministers of New-England by whom also I am sure he was first taken off the darke part that he hath said there was not such another man in the world againe Which Minister after his going into New-England and falling into the Church-way there and sending over Letters into England about the New-way presently after these Letters began the falling off and questioning Communion in our Churches and before these Letters were sent into England and the coppies of them communicated to divers I never by discourse with any of you nor from others heard that you were fallen into the Church-way As for your consulting with reverence what the Reformed Churches held forth both in their writings and practice that could be no long time as appeares by what I have before prooved and besides the short time you tooke to consult of Church-government and worship after your landing in Holland there are many passages in this Apologie shew no great reverence towards them and if a man should guesse of your reverence to the Churches of Scotland and France by many of your way both Ministers and people what they speake of Presbyteriall government and of those Churches he would conclude it were very little But these good words of the Reformed Churches are to make way for a back-blow to those Churches and to get some advantage still to your own way namely that you could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and government their intentions being most spent upon the Reformation in Doctrine c. And why may not I suppose the same thing of Mr Goodwin Mr Nye and the rest of you that you may not see into all things about worship and government for if they might not then much more not you they excelling you in piety learning sufferings yeares But suppose the Reformed Churches at first might not yet considering that it is now above fourescore yeares since government and worship was purged as well as Reformation in Doctrine which you say was so well setled at first and since so many questions and controversies having risen about Worship and Government in their Churches and ours as about Morelius and about the Anabaptists and Brownists and of late the Independents and these differences having been debated in Synods and Assemblies having heard and seen all they could say against Presbyteriall government and what could be said for themselves if either they or you had the truth on your sides what reason can you give why they should not see into it upon so much enquity study and dispute the Reformed Churches being more free to entertaine truths and change somewhat in their Discipline then you were in your first entertaining this New-way For example The Churches of France living under persecution for their Religion and the truth of God if your way had any truth in it it were all one for matter of persecution to receive yours as their own As to that passage in this Section concerning the good old non-conformists that you say We had the advantage of all that light which their conflicts struck forth in their times c I answer a great part of their light as in Mr Cartwright Mr Hildersham c. was against the Separatists and their practises as their writings testifie as well as against the Diocesan Bishops and Ceremonies and it had been happy for you and this Kingdome that you had made better use of their light and of their draughts of Discipline the Reformation had been more easie and the godly party more united and the common enemy had never conceived such hopes and taken such heart as he does from your opinions And what ever you say it seemes that a great part of what the good old non-conformists writ came not much commended to you though your own and for all their sufferings because you follow it no better As to that passage about the Separation following the passage of the Non-conformists It is well you acknowledge that the Separation had fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks in their way and it was well you tooke such notice of them that you counted them as Land-markes to fore warâ—…e you of those rocks and shelves they ran upon and that thereupon you did enquire into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions this is one of the best passages in your book As there are foure passages among so many bad that are good and usefull One of the Parliament A second of the Assembly of Divines The third this of the Separatists The fourth a Description of many of the Proâ—…torus and people of this Kingdome But it had been better you had made so good a use of this observation and enquirie in Gods visibly witnessing from Heaven against the Separation in giving them up to fearfull sins in inflicting fearfull judgements and leaving them to strange divisions which your selves allude to in this passage and you know was in the stories of Browne Bolton Barrow Smith Iohnsons c. so as to have kept further from their principles and thereupon to have feared forsaking communion with our Churches and setting up Separated Assemblies and agreeing so much with them in most of the fundamentall and essentiall principles and practises and not to have come so nigh to them against whom God witnessed by so many fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks as only to resine and qualifie Brownisme and to spinne it of a finer thred then the old Separatists did But let me here put this Dilemma to you Seeing the Separatists fatall miscarriages and ship-wracks did put you upon an enquiry into the principles and causes of their divisions upon the enquiry either you found out and discovered those principles or you did not If you did not discover them why doe you insert these words here and carry it so to make the Reader
should have laid downe particularly as wherein and how farre you agreed with the Reformed Churches so also wherein you departed from them namely you should have shewed in what you practised more then they doe and wherein you practise short of them and in the things you practised with them yet how you differ'd in the manner of them but to returne to that of censures Reformed Churches practise besides admonition and before they come to excommunication that which is called by Divines Abstentio à sacracaena but you doe not so but conceale this but brethren why should you not practise this especially considering how according to your principles the Church is to receive the Lords Supper every Lords day Now suppose some members commit a great sinne on the Saturday which though comming it be known to the Ministers or Elders and some of the people either there may be no time to call the Church to admonish the parties or if there be for admonition yet not time sufficient for the parties to testifie Repentance and yet the persons may not be judged obstinate and impenitent as to be excommunicated but the persons offending will come now to the Lords table in the interim what will you doe in this case And further the Reformed Churches enjoyne the censure of open confession of sinnes and practise deposition of officers from their places which may justly arise upon some cases and yet not thinke it fit to proceed unto excommunication as your selves practised in M. Wards case never proceeding to give him up to Satan but how lame and defective is this your Narration about the governement of the Church onely relating two things you practised in common with the Reformed Churches and as concealing other things you practised not with them so wholly passing over in silence here all your different way of practising from all Churches in the way of ordination in the way of constituting Churches and admission into them and in the way of governing by the votes and suffrages of the whole bodie in the way of celebration the Lords Supper receiving it at night c. in the Sacrament of Baptisme with many other particulars which whether it be fairly done I appeale to the Reader who is by this much deceived thinking upon the reading of this Narration that you had agreed in all things of Worship Officers Censures with the Reformed Churches But to returne to that censure of Excommunication which you insist upon laying downe your judgement about the subject of that censure As for your blessing God you never exercised it There may be but little ground for such a blessing but cause rather to be humbled for not using it seasonably I judge had you practised it some revilings evill speakings between many members of your Churches with some other offences might have been prevented But there is no such great cause to set out your selves by the non-exercise of Excommunication if what you hold for the matter of it be considered wherein I suppose you differ from all Orthodox Reformed Churches and doe open a wide gappe to much licentiousnesse both in doctrine and practise What doe you judge Is it not to be put in Execution for no other kind of sinnes then may evidently be presumed to be perpetrated against the parties knowne light c. What if men practise Polygamie prophane the Lords day by using it as they doe any other daie what if they doe hold and accordingly will have practised communitie of goods amongst beleevers what if they maintaine that Christians ought not to be Magistrates all which are not condemned in all the Churches of Christ especially if some Churches may be taken for Churches of Christ and we have reason to beleeve by your manner of expressions you include such neither are perpetrated against the parties knowne light but rather are practised upon new light and as new truthes and let me intreate you in your Replie to explain your meaning what you meane by all the Churches of Christ and by the common received practises of Christianitie and what by the principles of Christianitie universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches whether by Churches you understand the Churches onely of your owne communion and waie or the Churches which are commonly called the Reformed Or else all Churches whatsoever that are so called as besides your owne and the Reformed the Churches of the Anabaptists Antinomians and such like And I have reason to propound this question your words being so doubtfull Now if your words and phrases be taken in the first sence of your Churches only that those sinnes and no other are to be the subject of Excommunication then great sins and errours according to the Scripture and judged so by Orthodox Churches may escape Excommunication and on the contrarie many matters which according to Scripture are neither sinnes nor errours but only your Churches hold them so may have that dreadfull sentenee passe upon them but if you meane it in the largest sence for all kind of Churches and for the received principles and practises of Christianitie professed and acknowledged in all the Churches then more sinnes and errours so judged by the word by most Churches and by your owne Churches too will not be acknowledged for such in all the rest of the Churches and so shall escape that censure But if you should say you meane onely the Reformed-churches commonly so called and the common received practises professed by them it cannot be so understood as is evident by your own expressions in this passage about Excommunication So that here are strange unsafe rules to goe by in the censure of Excommunication and I judge it is a part of the new light and now truths of these times never yet given by any learned Classicall Authour How much better were it for Churches to make the subject of Excommunication such sins and errours which the Scripture hath made so and those sinnes to be agreed upon by common consent in Assemblies and Synods so drawne up for all to know them But if it be objected that this may hinder further light and an after discoverie I answer when any thing more shall come to be found out this need be no hinderance unto any light but by the publike Government and common consent upon good grounds may be added But this your judgement about the censure of Excommunication I feare is calculated for the Meridian of pretended liberty of conscience Now this position of holding the subject of Excommunication to be onely such sins and errours as are against the parties knowne light and the common received practises of Christianity professed in all Churches and no other to be the subject of it tends much to the tolerating of Sects and Heresies which in this impure age is by many men and by too many of the Church way so studiously promoted against the nature of Reformation and true zeale But if one of the great ends of Excommunication be to preserve others from
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
which is not your case denying authoritative power but if you say this text is meant secondarily of all Churches and Christians though they have not authoritative power I grant it but then it is in wayes suitable which the word of God gives warrant and allowance for as in reproving mourning for the sin c. which must be shewne in some other Scriptures For else the Presbyterians may pretend by vertue of this text that they ought not to be partaker of other mens sins that they may censure depose excommunicate members of other Churches who are suffered to goe on in sin better then you can draw from this text that you may call not only particular members but whole Churches to an account examine them and pronounce that heavy sentence of non-communion against them But in a word bretheren let me tell you if such generall texts as these that may be applied to any course and way conceived by men in their own braines to hinder sin and reduce from offences will serve turne for Church government and for remedies to reduce Churches then we can give you besides your own two texts quoted here for your principle of submission of Churches and non-communion many other such and more probable too for the authoritative power of Presbyteries and Sinods as that in 1 Cor. 14. 22. And the spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets but we are not so hard put to it there being particular instances and examples if the nature of an Answer to such a Narration would permit me to insist at large that proove the points in difference namely of acts of power exercised by Churches in common as in elections determinations and impositions upon differences and controversies as Acts 15. 2. 4 6 7 13 22 23 24 28 29. Acts 16. 4 5. 2 Corinih 8. 18 19. But let the indifferent reader judge by this which hath been said whether the reformed Churches or the Independent practise most safely there being a ground as your selves confesse for the sentence of excommunication such a sentence you acknowledge in particular Churches and practise it and such a sentence hath been decreed and past upon members of Churches by those who were not members of those Churches as the Scriptures are cleare for it 1 Tim. 1. 19 20. But on the other hand it is not granted that the Scriptures give any ground of pronouncing the sentence of non-communion against whole Churches or doe allow any such practise of declarations and protestations unto all Churches against whole Churches this I utterly deny and your Scriptures prove them not and I wonder how you dare call it the command of Christ and the way of Christ as you doe in page 18 19. And brethren besides that the Scriptures give neither precept nor example for your way of non-communion consider whether the Scriptures give not grounds rather to the contrary namely against a particular Churches withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion with whole Churches upon an errour and miscarriage for let me aske you may not such a Church or Churches be true Churches for all this continue in their offices upon mistaken partiality and notwithstanding all the light a particular Church can give them be unsatisfied now if a particular man may not separate nor withdraw Christian communion from a true Church though upon his counsell and advise she redresse not but 't is a schisme then for one Church upon counsell and advice given to more Churches though not taken to separate formally from many Churches by pronouncing that heavy sentence of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian communion cannot be justified Paul did not renounce nor cast-off Churches for many things amisse though upon his counsell they were not mended as appeares in the Church of Corinth that had been twice admonished 2 Cor. 13. 1 2. and â—…t repented not and now Paul doth it the third time and yet refusing Pauls counsell and power being so infallible and authoritative deserved more the sentence of non-communion then the often rejecting the counsell and power of any particular Church can doe But I will answer you in your own language that your sacred and undoubted principles and supreame laws of submission of Churches and of the power of Churches offended to pronounce the heavy sentence of non-communion against the Churches offending and of Declarations and Protestations to all other Churches of Christ that they might doe the like with your own practise exprest in the 20 and 21. page are to me Apocriphâ—… and judge it to be an additament which therefore rests on you who allow the sentence of excommunication to make evident and demonstrate that of non-communion Protestations Declarations c. And thus it often falls out whilst men will oppose that which hath long been received in the Church of God upon pretence of the want of Scripture grounds and bring in new wayes they practise novelties upon lesse ground and foundation from Scriptures then they rejected the old as is to be seen in this instance 2. As these principles of yourâ—… have no footing in Scripture so it will appeare they are no sufficient remedies for miscarriages and evills which fall out in particular Churches by reason of their compleate and entire power within themselves first because there are more acts of power then your principle of submission of Churches and the instances you give upon it reach unto so that granting all you say of it yet it would but reach to that particular case or some such like cases but would be no way sufficient either for preventing or remedying other evills and mischiefs which dâ—…e and would arise upon a Congregationall government thus entire within it selfe So that here lies the fallacy in the question between you and the reformed Churches in point of government you speake to some points of government but not to all and instead of laying down principles that should answer all cases they only serve but to some and so your principles that should be simpliciter are only secundum quid For in the government of the Church there are many other acts of power as of making and ordaining Ministers of receiving in Members of agreeing upon a government doctrine and worship c. which this full compleat entire power of particular Congregations takes upon them to doe of which many great mischiefes doe arise and are like errours in the first concoction which your principle of submission of Churches reacheth not unto nor doth not help But secondly besides this the principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto the other Churches offended with that practise of Churches finally offended to denounce such a senâ—…ence of Non-communion doth not answer the case alleadged in heresies schisme or persons injured nor is not a sufficient remedie like that of combination of Elders and for the making good of that I shall examine the way and course prescribed by you in your principles here laid downe of Submission Non-communion Declarations and Protestations and
word to hinder the deposing of Mr Ward and so to have prevented so great a scandall and offence as this was To the fifth and last generall head the comparison you make between the effectualnesse and powerfulnesse of your way of submission and non-communion and that of the Presbyterians to awe and preserve Churches and Elders in their duties and to reduce Churches miscarrying where you make the sâ—…ales fall on your side rather I answer Besides some considerable things already hinted under some of the former heads especially under the fourth head which doe shew a wide difference of the effectualnesse and successe which the Presbyterian principles and way hold out over your Congregationall thâ—…e are many other to 〈◊〉 the sâ—…les which I shall now speake of according as 't is laid downe here by you in the 17 18 and 19 pages 1. That you may render your way the more specious and probable you beg the question and take for granted things denied supposing that also which never hath fallen out in the reformed Churches and you speake but to a part of the way and remedie namely excommunication anâ—… from all these false premises you make your conclusion You lay downe your way of submission and non-communion 〈◊〉 that â—…ch is the 〈◊〉 and way of Christ and to be strictly enjoyned by Christ â—…d that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are â—…ly offended to denounce such a sentence of non-communion which is a meere device of your own brains and sound out to give a colourable answer to that common and 〈◊〉 reason against the Church-way 〈◊〉 you make that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Presbyteries to be an excommunicating of whole Churches and â—…s delivering of whole Churches and their Eldere offending unto Saâ—…n which is a scandalous charge laid to tho Presbyterian government and never yet was â—…rd of in any of the reformed Churches for the space now of a hundred yeares past You lay you give more to the Magistrates power then the principle of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld whereas in some things I shall show the contrary and in other things you may out of policie at this time give more then the Scriptures allow You speake only of excommunication a part of their way whereas in combined classicall government there are many other meanes and ways from first to last to preserve and reduce from errors and offences 2. The comparison made by you between the Presbyterians and Independents stands in two things First In the Ecclesiasticall proceedings and power Secondly In the civill Magistrates power 1. For the Ecclesiasticall you make that principle of submission of Churches that miscarry and that of non-communion as effectuall as excommunication which supposing they were as I shall shew they are not yet 't is a fallacious reasoning by comparing the whole with a part for a whole of one kind may be better and more excellent then some part of another kind and yet not comparable to the whole now there are many things in Presbyteriall government besides excommunication excellent to preserve and keep the Churches Their reformation and constitution being setled by Synods and Assemblies their Ministers being ordained by Presbyteries and classes their Doctrine worship government and discipline upon serious debate and by common content drawn up then rules being fixt known and certaine their classicall meetings frequent and constant with higher Assemblies for appeales their number and abilities great their remedies and censures more solemne and more in number as deposition suspension c. all which are wanting in the Church way as I could shew at large but that this answer would be too great a volume But to come to particulars the Presbyterian is more effectuall then your Independent way 1. Because it doth prevent and preserve from those many errours divisions evils which fall in your way as is evident by experience and is founded upon good reason will fall out now how much better and more effectuall a way 't is to play the fore-game then the after-game all men know 't is better to prevent the plague and taking in poyson then to expell it government is for prevention as well as recovering if your way were as effectuall to compose differences and reduce Churches yet not so to prevent which is one of the great ends of Church government 2. Your way wraps in whole Churches in sin and guilt and you have no remedy but it must come to non-communion of whole Churches but in Presbyteriall 't is not so no example being extant among them of excommunicating whole Churches so that if an errour take one or two they are presently dealt with and the errour spreads not to a whole Church 3. In the Presbyteriall way the persons offending and sinning in Congregations are proceeded with and punished every man beares his own sin but the innocent persons suffer not but here in the way of non-communion some who are good in the Church suffer also many wayes and here is no difference made by you but all involved in the same condition 4. In your way as if all sins were equall and all offenders alike all are punished with the same sentence of non-communion but 't is not so in the Presbyteriall way 5. Your submissions and meetings are accidentall uncertaine free and at choice they may be and may not be there are many wayes to evade and put them off whereas the combinations and consociations of Churches are fixed set certaine Amongst your Churches in Holland in three or foure yeares there was but one act of submission and one meeting which is here related In that difference between those two Churches at Rotterdam there was no submission but each Church blew the trumpet of defiance against each other and so about the differences at Arnheim which the Church could not end in so long a time no Church interposed but in the classicall government there is such a subordination and dependencie such stated and fixed meetings that if men should escape one they do not all now in government and order there is a materiall difference between what men may doe or not doe and what they have tied themselves unto and must stand to In matters of civill difference referred to Arbitratours 't is one thing to submit to hearing and to counsell upon it and another thing to be bound to stand to the determination There are many will doe justly and performe such trusts whilest bound who left at liberty will doe just nothing now in your submission of Churches though you submit to a hearing yet you doe not submit to their determinations unlesse it like you you doe not submit to doe what they enjoyne but you will order your selves according to their counsell as you see occasion now men being partiall in their own cause and still their own judges what a remedie is this 't is one thing when men know they are at liberty and may doe or not doe as they see good and another
complaints and appeals now the Presbyterians in that give the Magistrate a power about the use and abuse of Ecclesiasticall discipline and Ecclesiasticall Causes and businesses yea and definitive to namely a politicall objective consequent power which may be diversly exercised both ordinarily and extraordinarily in a Church constituted and in a good estate and in a Church fallen and corrupted Voetius in his disputations upon that question In whose hands the Ecclesiasticall power is a great Presbyterian in that question grants and gives to the Magistrate a publick judiciall power of judging not onely with the judgement of knowledge but definitive in causes and matters Ecclesiasticall which judgement is consequent not antecedent because the ultimate disquisition is not in that whether that be true but whether they will by publicke Authoritie maintaine and execute that So * Apollonius in his Answer to Vedelius where he strongly pleads for the Presbyterians in that point of Ecclesiasticall power yet gives much to the Magistrate ordinarily in a Church constituted and well reformed in the point of this part of power and extraordinarily in the state of a Church corrupted and greatly disordered when the doctrine is corrupted and the Sacraments contaminated with idolatrous rites and discipline turned into tyrannie and when the Ministerie and all Ecclesiasticall meetings both inferiour and superiour conspire to oppresse the truth of God and to establish tyrannie in the Church in such cases the Magistrate may do many things besides the ordinary way now let me entreate you to consult the books of the Presbyterians and especially Apollonius answer to Vedelius of the severall particulars of the power of Magistrates about the use and abuse of discipline in a constituted Church besides the power given them in extraordinarie cases and in your Reply to this Answer satisfie me what you give more But let me tell you whatever power you five may have found out for the Magistrate which the principles of Presbyteriall government will not suffer them to yeeld some new power may be like that devise of Non-communion of Churches and Protestation to all Churches that they may doe the like yet your Churches may not grant it and so the Magistrates shall be never the nearer the power you give the Magistrate in the 17. and 19. pag. is not yeelded by many of your own Churches whereof you are Ministers A Gentleman a prime member of one of your Churches immediately after the comming forth of your Apologeticall Narration disclaimed and renounced that power of the Magistrate exprest by you in the hearing of a Minister a member of the Assembly who related it to me But what is it wherein you give more to the Magistrates sure there is something you meane and aime at in it if we could find it out suffer me to guesse at it and you shall see though you doe not formally expresse so much yet I have some reason to judge so First Doe you not meane in this phrase the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld that your Church-way consisting all of particular Congregations and not growing into great bodies by combinations and Synods the Magistrates power is greater over you in that he may easily deale with you and dissolve you at pleasure but for a power to grow into so great a body an Ecclesiasticall power as large as the civill so combined this may be formidable and dangerous to the State and too great for the Magistrate hereafter to rectifie this hath been by an active Independent upon discourse of these points suggested to me and how farre one of you hath reasoned thus in the hearing of many against Presbyteriall government and for Congregationall you can remember Or secondly Doe you understand by this phrase that when heresies schismes or strange opinions are broacht in your Churches and you cannot tell what to doe with them nor how to suppresse them nor how to have the persons censured being so powerfull in particular Congregations whereof they are members in such a case you give the civill Magistrate a power to question them for these heresies schismes and to imprison banish c. if they doe not revoke them New-England practising the way of Independencie and not having Classes Synods that have authoritative power to call to account and censure such persons were necessitated to make use of the Magistrates and to give the more to them a power of questioning for doctrines and judging of errors and punishing with imprisonment banishment and they found out a prety fine destinction to deceive themselves with and to salve the contrariety of this practise to some other principles that the Magistrate questioned and punished for these opinions and errors which now for want of Ecclesiasticall discipline and censure they knew not what to doe with not as heresies and such opinions but as breaches of the civill peace and disturbances to the Common-wealth which distinction if the Parliament would have learned from you and proceeded upon they might long agoe have put downe all your Churches and Congregations and justly have dealt with you as the Magistrates in New-England did with Mr Williams and the Antinomians Familists and Anabaptists there and yet have said they punished you not for your consciences nor because of such opinions but because your opinions ways and practises were an occasion of much hurt to the Common-wealth a breach of civill peace a great cause of many people sitting so loose from the Parliament a great hinderance to the Reformation and a ground of much distraction to the publike and of strengthening the enemy whereas the Presbyterians give the power in cases of heresies errors c. that are not remedied in the particular Congregation to Classes Synods Assemblies to question convince judge of censure and to apply spirituall remedies proper to spirituall diseases which I am confident of had such been in New-England in the Presbyteriall way there had never beene so many imprisoned banished for errors nor the Magistrates put upon that distinction Or thirdly Is it that you doe give a power to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things of the ultimate determination of matters purely Ecclesiasticall which the Presbyterians principles doe not as now in matters of doctrine and in matters of scandall and in matters of censures excommunication deposition c. which are brought before and have past in Ecclesiasticall Assemblies to appeale from them to the civill Magistrate and to carry causes from thence to civill Courts to repeale and revoke them Your words and passages about the Magistrates power imply this and I find that many quick sighted men as the Walachrian classis nay a whole Synod after them in their late Letters to the Assembly apprehend you so and therefore I may upon good grounds judge besides the two former that you aime at this third in saying you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians
Concerning which question it being a point that I have not much studied I shall not declare my judgement in it But in the Church of Israel it seemes that in the things of Jehovah the last judgement did belong to the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Assembly which sate at Ierusalem Deut. 17. 8 9 10 11 12 13 verses as Iunius in his Analisis illustrates that place and the arguments brought by Apollonius in this point with his answers to Vedelius arguments have a great deale of strength in them and I entreate you in your Reply if you will formally owne the giving of this power to the Magistrate that you will answer that second chapter of Apollonius But to draw toward a conclusion of the comparison of the effectualnesse between the two wayes supposing all you say of Submission Non-communion Protestation were true as also that you did give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterian and that in spirituall matters in cases of difference injuries c. you would from the Church have recourse to the Magistrate and submit to his judgement and that you did allow and would stand to the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet notwithstanding you have determined it that without all controversie your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the other can be supposed to be yet I must tell you it falls farre short of the Presbyterian way both in preventing and remedying sins errors offences and in promoting knowledge godlinesse and peace in the Churches For suppose non-communion of Churches were a way of Christ and a remedie the contrary to which I have at large showne yet you must confesse 't is but a lower remedy not an authoritative powererfull dreadfull remedie and meanes like that of excommunication which is the highest and greatest censure in the Church the Churches thunderbolt and Anathema a remedy and last meanes which recovers a sinner when all others will not as admonition suspension deposition and so when non-communion and Protestation will not In the Scriptures are laid downe many eminent fruits and effects of excommunication in the people of God which are not of any censure else and I might fill a book with the ends benefits and fruits of this censure laid down by Divines in their Tractates and common places of Ecclesiasticall discipline and excommunication but I will name only that of the Professors of Leyden Excommunication is the last remedie and the sharpest for the subduing of the flesh in a man and for the quickning of the spirit and the most efficacious example least the sound part should be corrupted But against them who persevere in their contumacie and impenitencie 't is the only meanes to free the house of God of leaven and the Church of Christ from scandals and so to vindicate the Word and Sacraments from prophanation and the Name of God from the blaspheming of them without Now pray shew us in the Scripture any where the excellent fruits benefits ends of non-communion of Churches and Protestation against them as we can of excommunication in 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. 6 7 8 9 10. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 1. 20. And then for that other remedie of the Magistrates power added to non-communion to eeke out wherein non-communion may be defective to excommunication and for that purpose you say you give more to the Magistrates power that so what you faile and come short in Ecclesiasticall power you may make it up in giving more civill power in Ecclesiasticall causes the result of which must needs be this that though in your Church-way you have not so much Ecclesiasticall authoritative power for miscarriages and for reducing Churches that fall into heresie and schisme yet you give more civill power and allow the Magistrate more to interpose for helping and reducing so that lesse Ecclesiasticall power and authority with a large civill power to back it will be every way as effectuall as much Ecclesiasticall authority with a small civill power But of this I shall shew you your mistake because the question is of Church matters and matters of conscience and the inward man and of the Kingdom of Christ Now the remedies and meanes appointed for these are spirituall and Ecclesiasticall namely spirituall punishments Christ saith my Kingdom is not of this world and the Apostle 2 Cor. 10. 3 4 5. The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling downe of strong holds by which the spirit and the inward man even every thought is subjected to the obedience of Christ spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke and hence in Ecclesiasticall discipline and those scandalls in the Church which is the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse c. which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place at all neither can such meanes which are of a different kind from the spirituall Kingdome of Christ produce those effects which belong to that heavenly Kingdome 'T is out of the sphere of the activity of the politicall Magistrate to subdue the inward man or to inflict spirituall punishment upon the consciences And there is nothing more common in the writings of the most learned and orthodox Divines then to shew that the civill power and government of the Magistrate and the Ecclesiasticall government of the Church are toto genere disjoyned and thereupon the power of the Magistrate by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from Ecclesiasticall discipline For the power of the Magistrate by which he punishes sin doth not subserve to the Kingdome of Christ the Mediator that he may apply efficaciously to the elect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Propheticall and Priestly office of Christ he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment neither is this instituted of God and sanctified as the meanes for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. Hence also by Divines the manifold difference between the censure of excommunication and the punishment of the Magistrate is observed Zanchius doth accurately shew the difference between them The cause of excommunication is not the punishment of sinne but the salvation of the sinner and the edification of the Church and the glory of God but the scope of the civill Magistrate and his office is that he should punish the sinne it selfe neither dâ—…th it looke to the salvation or damnation of the offender whereupon although the sinner repent yet he doth not spare but punisheth according to his office But the Church according to Christs doctrine doth not strike with the spirituall sword unlesse he be impenitent neither is this done for death but for salvation
only and the highest powers can they alwayes heare or attend unto through the many great businesses of State affaires all the differences scandals schismes that both in particular Churches and betweene Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another especially in Independent Churches where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe and have no fixed rules nor certaine way I warrant the supreame Magistrate and higher Powers Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion and to heare all causes and differences But if you understand the inferiors also Majors Bailiffs c. I represent it to you what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies schismes scandals c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches and between Churches themselves Againe If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely any Magistrate though Heathen Popish Arrian as Mr Robinson doth in his Apologie and I find it in your manuscripts and principles that you take it so judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves how fit are they who understand not Christian religion nor the doctrines according to godlinesse to judge of the great differences between Churches and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. for cariying matters from the Church even the smallest matters the things that pertained to this life unto unbeleevers how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church or doe you understand that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon as for particular Churches so between the Churches according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation c. which yet you practise not Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy 6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all to take any notice in matters of Religion and Church government but leave Churches to themselves in that as it was with you in Holland there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches nor none to have recourse unto or to backe the sentence of Non-communion you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe 7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes with his backing the sentence of Non-communion in Ecclesiasticall causes in cases of sinnes errours differences that arise in Churches should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now that 't is not probable it should be or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes take these probable and rationall grounds 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion as the Socinians Anabaptists c. Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods and all for the power of Magistrates and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands they encreased their partie and came to such a height Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they sha'l what by flatterie and what by delay through other great businesses of State and what by sophismes and fallacies and what from principles of policie in many States-men and what by friends c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies answer their arguments will mind those businesses wholly are not to be wrought upon by State principles c. Now if in experience and reason this way were as powerfull to reduce a Church or Churches from schisme and heresie they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats and diseases and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion in matters of schisme and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers and in many cases that arise be able to judge and determine matters as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse to sift into it to heare all that can be said and can mind it they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best and bring things to a good end we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse delay long slubber over businesses and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult intricate cases Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State having large dominions cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences scandals schismes c. that doe and may arise both in Churches and betweene Churches especially as would fall out in the Independent way and particularly in this way of submission Non-communion and mutuall Protestation but matters would be delayed and neglected or escape wholly or be hudled up 4. To these I might adde as followes that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers people nor of other matters so well as the Ministers who live among them and converse with one another frequently neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons as
to their Ministers and Pastours with other such like 8. But in Ecclesiasticall matters and differences upon the Magistrates interposing his power what is it you will submit unto and what will you allow him to doe And what is that power you will give him in backing the sentence of Non-communion upon his judgement of the cause and how farre and in what will you obey him that so we may understand how this Civill power is intended by you for a remedie and helpe in Churches and betweene Churches For instance will you submit not to gather Churches nor set up Assemblies withoâ—…â—…is leave and upon complaints of the many mischiefes and differences occasioned thereupon will you upon his hearing both sides and judging that those who are gathered shall be dissolved dissolve them and not meet in those wayes any more Will you upon some members complaining to the Magistrate of some Minister or Ministers in their Church for preaching erroneous and unprofitable doctrine meere novelties subtilties and the Magistrate upon particular cognizance and examination of such causes judging that he shall preach no more will the Minister forbeare upon it or the Church to heare him in case the Minister would not yeeld will the Church now goe chuse a new and Orthodox Minister upon it or in case a member or more be unjustly excommunicated and they complaine to the Magistrate who calling the Church to account and hearing both sides shall judge on the Complaiants side and now order the Church to absolve him and order them to confesse their sinne publikely and appoint them to keepe a day of humiliation for it and order them to give him such a summe of mony for the wrong trouble and losse of his time in following the businesse against them will the Church now submit to doe all this yea or no What say you to these and the like cases Now I aske you this in the close because you pretend a great deale of submission to the Magistrate and to give him much power which though you did grant yet for the many reasons and grounds alreadie specified this would not countervaile the way of the Presbyterians in their spirituall censures by Presbyters and Synods whether you clearely and plainly allow this to the Magistrate because I finde in Manuscripts and heare that in Sermons by men of your Church-way the contrarie is publikely preacht and held as for example in that Treatise about a Church which goes under one of your names there is this passage with more to that purpose The Saints need not expect their power or leave for to gather together so as without it such a combination is unlawfull nor should they forbeare it out of conscience of the Magistrates prohibition indeed if the Magistrate should force or compell them to forbeare or persecute them they may forbeare actuall assembling Act. 8. 1. not because the Magistrate forbids it but in mercie to themselves And indeed about a Church Christian Magistrates have no more power then Heathen Magistrates had So that this is spoken by you where Magistrates are Christian and where Churches are already setled And adde to this that M. S. in his Reply in defence of your Apologie is against coercive and coactive power in matters of Religion and that you all hold a toleration and that the Magistrates ought not to hinder men or punish them for the matter of their consciences how then notwithstanding all your discourse of the power of the Magistrate which added to Non-communion will be an effectuall meanes to releeve persons injured to reduce Churches and persons going in schisme and errours shall persons injured be remedied or Churches and persons reduced For suppose the persons or Churches that now fall into such errours and schismes will pretend nay 't is so really that they in their conscience hold errours for truths and thereupon with-draw from such Churches to others nay suppose those who now receive these new truths should cast out of their fellowship and excommunicate some for holding otherwise as for instance a Church falling into Antinomianisme should censure some of their members that remain orthodox for legal Christians and for being enemies to free-grace and should judge themselves bound to doe so in these and such like cases what remedie is there for miscarrying Churches by all the power of the Magistrate you pretend to give to him But this is brought in here by you and given to him to put of that strong argument against your way and that you may have something for present to blind the eyes and stop the mouths of many that looke no further that it may serve your turne at such a straight whereas upon other principles you denie the Magistrate this when it shall come to be a matter of conscience And now by all the severall particulars under this fifth head the understanding Reader may observe that not only in many respects your non-Communion and Magistrates power are not a remedie comparable to the Presbyterian way not proper nor to the nature of the offences and things in question a way in stead of bringing things to an end redressing and mending matters amisse that will be but the beginning of more strife and making more differences and evils then either it sindes or can heale the mother and nurse of Confusions Disorders and endlesse contentions but also that all the power here pretended to be given to the Magistrate upon examination is no such matter nor will not amount to make good the ends propounded whereas the Presbyteriall Government here scandalized as either wholly inconsistent with this forme of Civill Government or else not giving it its due will be found by its principles not only to have powerfull spirituall remedies for all spirituall evils of the Church but will be found in many respects to make use of and to give honour and power to the Civill Magistrate as a nursing Father from first to last even in the ordinary way of the Order and Government of the Church beyond you besides what they give more in extraordinary cases in a Church miserably corrupted disordered c. Of which the Reader may read at large in Apollonius who was a great Presbyterian cap. 2. And so learned Zanchius in his Tractate de Magistratis shewes 't is in the power of the Magistrate not to suffer Heretickes nor erroneous persons to preach and he gives him coactive punitive power to cut them off Beza a great Presbyterian in his Epistles and other writings in matters of Religion doth not exclude the Magistrate but gives him that power in some things which you deny but besides that power they give the Magistrate they stand for as needfull in the Church Classes and Synods for the Government of it Zanchy shewes that discipline cannot take place where the Ministers never meet together the meâ—…ting of Ministers and Ecclesiasticall Synods we judge most necessary As no Politie Common-wealth or Kingdome can consist without their meetings Senates and Councels
c. â—…or the weight of each have not had power with us to a deep silence and forbearance but our own interests have much provailed with us to occasion much disturbance among the people Brethren what is this you write in this Section how can you write it Have not some of you nor any of you no not in the least attempted to make a party What have your spirits been so remote from such dispositions and aimes that on the contrary you call God and â—…on to witnesse your constant forbearance either to publish your opinions by preaching oâ—… to print any thing of your own or others for the vindication of your selves or to all for your selves or way What have you kept a deep silence and forbearance What have not all your own interests prevailed with you to occasion the least disturbance amongst the people As for God who is called to witnesse by you without great repentance for these words he will be a swift witnesse against you Mal. 3. 5. And as for men whom you call also to witnesse I being one and therefore being called out by your selves to witnesse I must speake being called unto it and I entreate you blame not me for witnessing and speaking the truth declaring what I know of your preaching c but thanke your selves who have called me to it And being thus called I should sin against God and the truth If I should not speake the truth and the whole truth so farre as I know and have been from good hands informed and yet I will speake nothing but what I beleeve to be truth I doe therefore contrary to what you call God and men to witnesse unto charge you with these following particulars First All of you have not constantly forborne to publish your opinions by preaching but you have vented your principles and opinions by preaching sometimes more generally and covertly yet so as your followers understand you and sometimes particularly and plainly In a more generall and covert way you have done it often under preaching for purity of Ordinances the standing for the Kingly office of Christ the being in a Church-way the performing of all ordinances in the due and right order c. wherein you doe for your way just as the Malignant Ministers preach against the Parliament and for the Cavaliers under generalities by preaching against Rebellion and fighting against the King and rising up against him and for peace c. which the Malignants understand well enough and flock to them upon it And so more particularly fully and plainly you have preached for your way for instance Mr Simpson one of the Apologists hath frequently and did constantly for one space in many Lectures at Black-friers more especially on that Text Psal. 119. 6. Then shall I not be ashamed when I have respect unto all thy Commandements preach for his opinions and way and did answer many objectious against their Church-way pleading strongly for it and for pretended liberty of conscience and toleration So on Fishstreet-hill on that Text of Rom. 12. 2. That ye may prove what is that good that acceptable and perfect will of God he preached largely for his Church-way and propounded and resolved nine Questions about it And at Westminster also in Sermons preached there he had many passages for the Church-way as for Toleration as for the matter of their Church visible Saints c. Mr Burroughs another of the Apologists hath published his opinions by preaching and hath preached for his way at Mildreds-Breadstreet on that Text Gal. 5. 1. preaching against Nationall Churches under the new Testament and for the way of their particular Churches Mr Burroughs before the Lord Major and Aldermen in his publike Sermon at Easter preached for toleration of all Sects and opinions so they were not against fundamentals in doctrine and the fundamentals of civill government and he hath frequently in his Lectures at Michael Cornhill some of which are since printed preached for their way besides what he may have preached at Stepny and elsewhere of which I have not yet sufficiently informed my selfe as to be able to prove it Mr Bridge another of these Apologists in a Sermon at Westminster in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting before many Parliament men had up that Mat. 18. Goe tell the Church but Christ does not send them from that Church to another Church c. So in his Sermon before the Honorable House of Commons preached about a moneth before this Apologie came forth there are severall passages for the Church-way And in his Sermon called Babylons downfall preached before sundry of the House of Commons there are passages for the Church-way page 13 15. In London also at the Bridge-foote he hath preached severall things tending that way particularly about the people being Gods porters to let the Ministers into the Church and how no men come in truly called but they In the Countrey too he hath preached for his way as I have been enformed by a good hand both at Norwich and at Ipswich But if it be asked what he hath done at Yarmouth I shall in my Rejoynder give you a full account of him there being not yet so well prepared for that Mr Goodwin another of the Apologists hath preached and published his opinions on that Text Ephes. 1. 22 23. at large for no other visible Ministeriall Church but a particular Congregation with his reasons for it though that Text speakes of the Church in statu mistico and not of an instituted particular Church and so at Westminster in his first Sermon preached before many of the House of Commons he had passages of Christs Kingly office and the government of the Church clearely for this way and against the Presbyterians So in his Sermon preached before the House of Commons cal'd Zerâ—…bbabels Encouragement there are many things for the Church-way pag. 18. and from page 29. to page 44. which though they be but generals yet in the Epistle before the sermon it is confessed they be for that way As for Mr Nye he having lived a great part of his time since his returne into England in Noblemens families and in Yorkeshire and having preached little in the Parishes here in London I cannot proove that he hath published his opinions by preaching particularly for them But whether Mr Nye hath not acted the State-parasite and played the polititian the more and dealing in private under hand and hand to hand with some men of note for the Church-way and against the government of the Church of Scotland and particularly at Hull as I have some ground for what I write so I appeale to his conscience and intreate him to rub up his memory whom he hath conferred with about these points but though I cannot prove Mr Nye hath published his opinions by preaching yet Mr Nye affirming this not only for himselfe but for all the rest speaking not only in his own name but in the name of the other Apologists too
unto the Parliament to be there allowed of and confirmed and receive the stamp of authority thereby to find passage and obedience throughout the Kingdome Also I referre you to Declarations both of Lords and Commons about Uniformitie in Church-Government Worship c. intended by them And for the words as you expresse them here respect to tender Consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which had formerly been they interpret themselves implying a taking away the Ceremonies and other offensive things and a not inforcing and injoyning Subscriptions to all points in matter of Order and Externall Government as had formerly been but as for Tolerating different Churches and a different forme of Church-Government to be publikely exercised besides the established as I doe not beleeve that to be any part of their meaning in their Declarations so their words are expresse against it in the first Remonstrance and in some later Declarations besides that the Parliament well knowes a Toleration would bring in greater inconveniences to tender Consciences then can at first be imagined and would prove a farre greater mischiefe to the Church and to Reformation both in Doctrine and Government then the Episcopall 3. Together with that strict ingagement willingly entred into by us for these common ends with the rest of our brethren of the Ministery which though made to continue but ad placitum yet hath been saâ—…red to us As for this third ground alleadged by you for silence it prevailed no more with you then the former for notwithstanding this strict ingagement even since that time you have both preached and printed for your way namely Mr Borroughs Mr Bridge Mr Sympson and Mr Goodwin and many of the particulars formentioned have been preached since that agreement so that it seemes it hath not beene so sacred to you as you would make the Reader beleeve But if you answer you understand that engagement entred into with the Ministers was sacred to you and so observed as long as the agreement lasted but the particulars instanced in preached by you were since that agreement ceased by mutuall content I answer your words and the scope for which they are brought joyned to the precedent passages referre to a silence and forbearance till the time of putting forth this Apologie and that Parenthesis which though made to continue but ad placitum implies so much that though you were at libertie yet you tooke not that libertie But secondly I must mind you that the ground-worke laid by you by which you would the more commend your owne silence and moderation namely the agreement to continue but ad placitum was not so for it was agreed upon it should continue till both sides in a full meeting did declare the contrary and in case one side did transgresse by preaching c. none of the other side should take liberty to doe the like till the company was acquainted with it and the thing proved and the matters of difference not being taken up the agreement thereupon was declared to be null whereupon though some men included and particularly named at the agreement were complained of in a full meeting to have transgressed the agreement yet it was still continued notwithstanding some breach on the Independent side in reference to the publike union against the common enemy and for those common ends which was the first ground of it 3. I desire it may be considered of by Mr Borroughs Mr Sympson and M. Bridge whether some passages in some of their Sermons and Expositions about the Church way will not by calculating the time when they were preached and the time of the engagement for silence namely before the formall Declaration of the Companie in a publike meeting that the agreement ceased and that every man was left to his former libertie be found to be preached within the compasse of the time even before the mutuall strict engagement was declared null And because you here give the occasion by making this mutuall strict engagement between you and us one great ground of your deep silence I shall faithfully and impartially to my best remembrance relate that whole businesse of the agreement of the Ministers for silence the truth of which many Ministers then present upon the place can testifie also The Ministers of both sides both they and we desirous of Reformation in Church-Government and Worship being sensible how much our differences and divisions might distract the Parliament and hinder the taking away of Episcopall Government and the Reformation intended in a full and great meeting consulted together upon wayes to prevent it and by vote agreed upon these 1. That the Godly Ministers of the Citie and Countrey should continue the use of some part of the Liturgie namely what was best and least offensive because they found that the Bishops fought under that Banner and made use with the Gentrie and body of the common people to wrap up themselves in that suggesting that the Parliament would take away the Common Prayer Booke which they made use of to save their owne standing and to worke their owne ends the better And M. Goodwin ingenuously professed that he judged the moderate use of the Lyturgie in this juncture of things and for a time conduced much to the Reformation aimed at and were his Principles as ours that any prescribed Prayers might be used he would use it and saving his Judgement about Lyturgies his vote was to use it whereupon there being such a generall concurrence of Judgement amongst the Ministers some one or two Ministers in the Citie who were taken notice of wholly to disuse it and to have laid it aside in all Administrations were sent unto from the Company of Ministers and one of them came presently to whom the sence of the Company was represented and he dealt with to take it up againe and to use some part of the Prayers in the Lyturgie especially in the Administration of the Sacraments Secondly the Ministers finding that the preaching of some Lay-men Tradesmen and Mechanicks in the publique Congregations was a great stone of offence in the building of the Temple a way was agreed upon by the Ministers to deale with them and to take them off that practise and some of the Company judged to be most gratious and powerfull with them were chosen by the whole to deale with them and to acquaint them with the sense of the Ministers and some grounds against their practise especially at that time though the Company of Ministers who sent declared formally their judgement against the practise of it at all times Thirdly A mutuall silence was agreed upon for both sides both in preaching printing and conferring with the people and especially Parliament men of any of the points in difference betweene us but yet so that both they and we should joyne together to preach against the Anabaptists and rigid Brownists which these Apologists promised only they desired first to bring in a Narrative to us of all their opinions that
doe not goe to heaven to be with Christ expresly contrary to the 2 Cor. 5. 6 8. and to Philip. 1. 23. now whether some of you may not hold those opinions seeing they were publiquely preached at Arnheim and never condemned as ever I heard I know not but have reason rather to suspect you doe how ever though you doe not nourish any Monsters or Serpents of opinions in your bosomes yet I feare you have running wormes in your heads and together with the gold silver and Ivory of Orthodox truths you have store of Apes and Peacocks conceits and toyes as strange coined distinctions new strained expositions of Scriptures odd opinions about the personall raigne of Christ on earth and I aske you what the annointing with oyle of sick persons as an Ordinance for Church-members and what the bringing in of Hymnes composed by the gift of a Church-member cum multis aliis are whether are not these strange conceits and how ever you may be free of Monsters and Serpents of opinions lurking in your bosomes yet there is much of a Monster and the Serpent lurking in this Apologie and to be sure one Monster of opinions you all hold generally and some of you have preacht for A Toleration of divers sects and opinions and let me tell you granting you five be so Orthodox and supposing your argument good to prove it exposing your selves to the hazard of discovery in this Assembly which is no concluding argument yet there are many members of those Churches to which you belong besides many other members of Churches of your way and communion whom I suppose must be tolerated as well as your selves that doe hold very odd and strange things Some of Arnheim hold strange conceits and some members of Mr Sympsons Church hold some of the points of the Anabaptists and daily the Independent Churches like Africa doe breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptisme Antinomianisme Familisme nay that huge Monster and old flying serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man and indeed there is no end of errours that the Independent principles and practises lead unto As for those words if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not aforehand open to the view and Iudgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent we could not be long hid c. I answer some one or two Heterodox opinions may be hid where men are Orthodox in the most especially if all points of doctrine have not been discussed nor reviewed as in the Assembly they have not many Articles of our Church not having yet been gone through so that your errours in doctrine may be behind and your triall of being Orthodox will be when the Assembly comes to these Articles Article 19 22 23. 26. and when that doctrine concerning the Lawfulness of a Toleration of divers sects and opinions shall come to be discussed But before I passe from this I desire the Apologists to remember and the Reader to observe they call the Church of England Our Church and so in the fift page of this Apologie Our own Congregations we meane of England So that if you meane as you here write then the Nationall Church of England is your Church and the Parochiall Congregations are yours and so you establish a Nationall visible Church under the new Testament and if so why doe you erect other Churches and withdraw from your own but if you doe not meane so nor beleeve there is a Nationall visible Church nor account your selves members of this Nationall Church why doe you speake so and call the Church of England your own Church and the Parochiall Churches your own Congregations As for that part of this Section which concernes your good carriage in the Assembly in matters of Discipline In matters of Discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld c. I not being present at the debates will say nothing against it but whether since the writing of your Apologie and the Assembly comming to the points of Discipline which are properly yours your free-hold you have been so faire and moderate endevouring upon all occasions to grant and yeeld to the utmost latitude of your light and Consciences that I doubt and your best friends are not satisfied in it but rather much offended and you have much lost your selves with them by your demeanour and way of managing matters of difference in the Assembly But supposing all you say of your selves in this Section were fully so both before and since your Apologie yet it were not much materiall nor much to be trusted to being upon the triall of your good behaviour for it is probable all that may be done out of policie in reference to the main designe of obtaining a Toleration which at first cannot be imagined to have any probabilitie of being gained without all seeming fairenesse and compliance and drawing neere to us and therefore this Apologie is so framed in the words phrases and composure of it that in it you have stretcht your selves to the utmost latitude and highest compliance with the Church of England and the Reformed Churches even beyond what is meant by you in our sence and in common acception and beyond what many of your followers will own As also you hide and reserve severall things you hold both in matter and manner that so by all this you might court the Parliament Assembly Reformed Churches to beare with such conscientious men who differ so little from them and are so moderate and temperate also in and about the debate of those differences but the Parliament and the Assembly are wise to see into and thorough these Artifices and to consider that if once a Toleration were granted there would quickly be discovered another face of things which hitherto stands behind the curtain As for this passage in the close of this Section your not being backward urgers unto a temper not only in things concerning your own consciences but others also such as may suit and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determintions of truth one way I judge then you had but a weake ground to urge you to temper in matter of difference and I question whether you were so forward to a temper in the things that might suit and tend to union for I suppose you are so farie from holding that a great and usefull end of Synods a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding Determinations of truth one way as that you deny it I have read a letter out of New-England from a Minister of note there speaking of that Synod which met upon occasion of the Antinomians and Familists formally denying this power of binding
and occasion of this feare which displeases you made Catholiques by the lawes of the Emperours from Constantine down to these present Emperours How many did therefore remaine Donatists because they were there borne and no men did compell them to come out from them and to goe to the Catholique Church The terrour of these Lawes in the promulgation of which the Kings of the earth served the Lord did so profit all these that now others say thanks be to God who hath broken our bonds and hath translated us to the bond of peace others sory we did not know this to be the truth neither would we have learned it if we had been left to our libertie but feare made us attentive to know it Others say we were terrified from entring in by false feares which we should never have knowne to have been false but by entring in neither should we have entred in unlesse we had been compelled And so Augustine against Gaudentius speakes thus Whereas you thinke none must be forced to truth who are unwilling you are deceived not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God which makes those willing who when they were compelled were unwilling And in his books of Retractations he gives the experience of this fifth Reason as the ground of retracting what he had formerly writ and held in this point Learned Beza observed it in his time that Tolerations of sects and Libertie of conscience as it was called was the ground of filling Polonia and Transylvania with so many pestilent opinions which otherwise no people under the Sunne would have suffered and that if the Magistrate had tried by all meanes in Transylvania c. to have restrained that libertie they had not been brought to that condition which he judged no lesse miserable then Mahumetisme it selfe And he wishes that France had given Polonia an example of this one thing and showes the great difference between the peace and true liberty of conscience enjoyed at Geneva and in Polonia one granting Tolerations the other none So he shewes the benefit and good of compulsion I passe by that Augustine being taught by experience it selfe witnessed so often against the Donatists many to be of that disposition that they are by nothing more kept in dutie then by severity of Discipline so that what at first they left for feare of punishment afterwards they willingly cast away professing the sharpnesse used to have been very profitable We have seene also by our own experience in this intermysticall season though there hath been no formall Toleration yet for want of Government setled and people having been left to so great libertie multitudes are fallen and doe daily to Antinomianisme Anabaptisme Independencie yea to denie the Immortalitie of the Soule and then no expectation but many will fall more and more Independents and all kinde of Sectaries as long as they can have their libertie snuffe up the wind will not hearken to any way whereby they may receive satisfaction but if once the Magistrate declares and by laws concludes one way of Church-worship and Government then it may be they will heare Reason Men as long as they have any hopes will stand out who yet when they see no remedie will examine and consider Now what account God will exact for his Name prophaned for the Sacraments and Scriptures abused by the handling and administration of them who are not called and what answer must be made for the ruine of Soules harvest of sinne corruption of doctrine alwayes following the publike Toleration of heresies and schismes I humbly leave to be fully considered of and wisely prevented by the High Court of Parliament who must thinke that silence provokes and sufferance emboldens men to forsake Gods Truth and his Church even as in civill affaires the neglecting of justice maintains disorders 6. A Toleration of one or more different wayes of Churches and Church Government from the Church and Church Government established will be to this Kingdome very mischievous pernitious and destructive in regard of the effects and consequents of it how faire soever a Toleration may be pretended and how small soever the differences yet 't is of a vast and dreadfull consequence to this Kingdome Different Formes of Churches and Church Government in one state must needs lay a foundation of strife and division therein It is the admitting of a seed of perpetuall division within its selfe an opening a sluce to let in strife and contentions in all places publike and private Church and Common-wealth in Parliaments Corporations among the Ministers in Families Now how great an evill this is all wise states know and can stand with no Christian policie however it may agree with Machiavillian The different Interests and Principles of the Churches established and tolerated with other things concurrent especially in the partie tolerated apprehending themselves the weaker will be working in them to watch all advantages to grow and increase and to get into places and favour with great men and Princes as we see the Heretiques did in Ecclesiasticall Histories and the Arminians in the Netherlands with the Magistrates and will never rest working till they get the upper hand and suppresse the other But besides the continuall heart-burnings and divisions betweene the Ministers of the different Churches the people among themselves the husband and wife with the corruption of doctrine a Toleration will be a likely meanes of producing civill warres in this land and whereas now we have a warre between King and Parliament we may expect a warre amongst the people yea the Toleration desired would prove a mighty advantage for the Court party to make use of those sects and by enlarging some favours to them being the weaker partie to gain them by their help to overthrow the Government established and to advance the Prerogative the sad effects and mischiefes already without any formall Toleration of the different Churches and Governments doe appeare in the jealousies divisions delayes laying down of places in not being so active c. whereby the Court partie is strengthened Reformation hindred and the good partie weakned Now considering the many dangerous effects and consequents of a Toleration to this state and considering the small differences betweene the Apologists and the Presbyterians as themselves say and that they can for a need come to our Churches and partake in the Sacraments hold Communion with us as the Churches of Christ why should they have different Churches and Government allowed The Parliament upon so small a ground and needlesse a cause hath the lesse cause to give way to a Toleration which would certainely produce so great mischiefs and evils 7. Independencie and the Church way besides the evill of it in its selfe considered as being a schisme in forsaking the reformed Churches and constituting new the way of constituting Churches by the people the way of making their Ministers the refusing of beleevers and their children to the Sacraments
spread and they gained so many of the Magistrates on their side we should have found there would have been no ground for Mr Simpson to write thus As is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists and Socinians In a word till the calling of Synods and the power of Presbyteriall government was shaken and some Arminians by flattery and policie wrought to put by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies and appealed to the Magistrates as Mr Simpson does in this Apologie from the Assembly there was not so great a defection both of Ministers and people unto errors in turning Papists Socinians c. 3. Though Presbyteriall government hath not its free course in the Low-Countries as in France Geneva Scotland besides the Toleration there yet there are infinitely fewer miscarriages in censures divisions errors in the Presbyteriall Churches then in the Independents there having been more contentions miscarriagâ—…s falling into errors in one small Church of the Independent way at Amsterdam and that within lesse then one yeere then in all the Churches in some Provinces I remember perfectly I have read in Mr Pagetts Arrow against Separation a man who lived long in Holland and much versed in the Controversie how he showes that out of a few members in the Brownists Churches more fall to Anabaptisme c. then out of many thousand members of the Presbyteriall Churches amongst the Dutch or out of all the English Reformed Churches there So that notwithstanding this new objection brought against Presbyteriall government if the Parliament should please to settle it and that in the full power and free use of Classes and Synods denying also a Toleration for Independencie unto which all erroneous and discontented spirits upon all occasions would flow and gather instead of opening a wide gate for errors divisions and many other mischiefes they shall lay a sure foundation for truth and peace in these Churches And in the last words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland I conclude this last Reason against a Toleration The Church of England which God hath blessed with so much learning and piety by this Reformation and uniformity with other reformed Churches which all of us have solmnely sworne and subscribed to endeavour in our severall places and callings should be a praise in the earth Now did not other occasions call me to take off my hand besides the booke it selfe swelled already to such a number of sheets I would have answered all the reasons brought both for Tolerations in generall and particularly for the Congregationall way as that men are to be perswaded in matters of Religion and not compelled as that the Conscience is to be left free as that the deniall of a Toleration will be a great persecution as that this is the way to make men hypocrites as that Gods people are a willing people c. but reserving this to another season in the close of this Discourse I will propound these following questions to the Apologists 1. Whether the commanding of men by the power of Lawes to doe their duties to doe the things which God requires of them with the using of outward meanes to worke them to it when unwilling be unlawfull for the Magistrate and against Christian libertie yea or no 2. In your moving for a Toleration doe you desire it for you five only with those who are actually and will come in to be members of your Churches or for all the Churches who are of the same way and Communion if for your selves and Churches onely which would be more tolerable a few then a great number and you being persons of more worth then most of the others consider the solemne League and Covenant is against it That we shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine so that you cannot be tolerated more then others besides if that were granted you being but five Ministers and making up but three or foure Churches the Parliament would be never the neerer in giving satisfaction for what should become of all the rest of the Ministers and Churches in City and Countrey of Mr C. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr W. c. the Parliament would be accounted partiall and further off from giving content then if they granted none at all But if it be said you desire it for all Churches of your constitution I answer expresse so much under your hands and I will then give you an answer 3. Whether would you have a Toleration granted in the generall and indifferently for all consciences sects and opinions or only for some sort of opinions I suppose being wise men you will not expresse your selves for a Toleration in the first sense but in the latter I desire to know of you then what limits and bounds you will set and where the Parliament shall stop and what rules you will give for this as first whether the limitation shall be a Toleration only for all different formes of Church-Government and order so long as they agree in Doctrine with the Church established and are Orthodox but not of doctrine Now if you hold so then the Brownists and the Bishops with those who are for the Hierarchie must be tolerated as well as you many Episcopall men being sounder in doctrine then some of your way and if so then the simple Anabaptists and that sort of simple Anabaptists called Dippers will come in too saying that Baptisme at such an age and baptizing in rivers by dipping are but matters of order and time and what if yet a new forme of Church Government and way of externall order in the Administration of Gods Ordinances be set up by some a way which hath never yet beene practised by any must that be tolerated also consider with your selves whether there may not be a safer allowance of difference in some doctrines and opinions then of different governments as also what you have expressed of the consequence of Church Government and order and then resolve me whether you will have all formes of Church-Government allowed and in my Rejoynder I will apply my selfe particularly to show you the danger of that and how much hazard there is even of the Doctrine from the Discipline and Order if that be not right Or secondly would you have a Toleration in points of Doctrine too namely in lesser differences I desire to know what you will make the rule and measure of those lesser differences whether whatever may stand with saving grace and is not against the fundamentals of Doctrine and civill Government or what else Now if you meane so who shall determine and judge what may stand with saving grace c. every Heretick Socinian c. will plead his opinion may and I aske of you whether many points and practises very bad and pernitious may not stand with saving grace in some men at least for a time what say you to Polygamie that hath stood with saving
grace may that be tolerated what think you of many Arminian Tenets some Lutheran opinions Antinomian Doctrines and other dangerous points held by great Schollars as by Brentius Osiander Flaccius Illyricus may not some of these opinions stand with grace and might not some of these have grace and must these now be allowed to be preached in a Kingdome that hath established Articles of Religion and a Confession of Faith and shall such preachers gather people into Churches if all points may be preached and Churches allowed for all Doctrines that are not against fundamentals and that may stand with saving grace there will be a strange face of Protestant Reformed Churches infinite novelties may be broached and great stirs caused in a Kingdome I desire you in your Reply to state your lesser differences and to set downe your Boundaries what and what not and accordingly I shall answer In the meane time from these few hints you and the Reader may see besides the unlawfulnesse there 's difficultie where to fasten a Toleration Now in the close of my discourse against Toleration I take the humble boldnesse to represent to the Honourable Houses of Parliament that t is the Magistrates dutie not to suffer schismes heresies and other errours to grow and increase in the Church for as they are Magistrates they truly serve God whose Ministers they are and kisse the Son in revenging the injuries wantonly committed against God and his truth and in preserving the externall politie of Doctrine and manners one of the great services Princes and Parliament performe to Christ in reference to their great and high calling consists in making Lawes for the observing the Worship and Government of his House and by Lawes prohibiting all other worships and governments And I humbly beseech the Parliament seriously to consider the depths of Satan in this designe of a Toleration how this is now his last plot and designe and by it would undermine and frustrate the whole work of Reformation intended 't is his Master-piece for England and for the effecting of it he comes and moves not in Prelates and Bishops not in furious Anabaptists c. but in holy men excellent Preachers moderate and faire men not for a toleration of heresies and grosse opinions but an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse this is candidus ille Diabolus as Luther speakes and mâ—…ridianus Diâ—…bolus as Iohannes Gersonius anâ—… Bâ—… expresse it comming under the merits of much suffering and well deserving clad in the white garments of Innocencie and Holinesse In a word could the devill effect a Toleration he would think he had gained well by the Reformation and made a good exchange of the Hierarchie to have a Toleration for it I am conâ—…ident of it upon serious thoughts and long searching into this point of the evils and mischiefe of a Toleration that if the devill had his choice whether the Hierarchie Ceremonies and Lyturgie should be established in this Kingdome or a Toleration granted he would chuse and preferre a Toleration before them and would willingly part with and give up all those for a Toleration of divers Sects and different Churches To conclude if the way of Independencie be of God and the Apologists can make that good let it be established by the Parliament and let 's all come to that if it be not why then should it be tolerated and why did the Apologists move for a Toleration before that ever it came to be debated and argued in the Assembly And now for a conclusion and closing up this Answer to the Apologeticall Narration I might as some Authors doe in answering Bookes gather together and draw up into one all the maine particulars of the Apologie animadverted upon and put them under certaine heads and ranke them in their severall formes and so present a Synopsis of them to both Houses and the Reader whereby they might have all in their eye at once see much in a little As 1. all the expressions of the high praises of themselves and their owne partie scattered up and downe in the Apologie 2. The Aspersions Depressions Insinuations both open and more secret of the Reformed Churches and of the Assembly 3. The crossings and interfearings of some passages in the book with others 4. The plaine and manifest untruths expressed in many pages 5. All the Reservations and Concealments of matters both of opinions and practises in the Church-way 6. The double doubtfull expressions both in words and matter 7. The mistating of the questions in difference both on their owne side and the Presbyterians stating their owne differences with the lowest and the Reformed Churches at the highest 8. The generall expressions without comming down to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which being deducted and extracted from the Apâ—…ie what remainâ—… behind saving some few argumenâ—…s hinted but a just testimoâ—… of the Parliament and Assembly with a 〈◊〉 character of the people and multitude and a brand upon the old separation which paâ—… also of the Parliament Assembly People and Separation 〈◊〉 brought in both the praise of 〈◊〉 and the dispraise of the other in reference to the magnifying and commending the more the 〈◊〉 and patience c. of the Apologists but I spare the wise Reader may observe the passages and I have animadverted upon them all along in my Answer I could have made one part of my Answer to this Apologie 〈◊〉 strange though â—…ue paraphrase upon it and andinâ—… 〈◊〉 have 〈◊〉 the Narration of themselves for the most part contrary But I shall reserve that with some other things I have yet to say iâ—… matter of fact till I put out my Rejoynder to their Reply In 〈◊〉 meane 〈◊〉 I shall conclude this Antapologie with â—…rning my 〈…〉 by dissolving your Churches and comming in to us and that you may repent and recall this Apologie I will represent to you the greatnesse of your sin and folly in making the Apologie and it stands in these particulars 1. It was an unseasonable disorderly work for the time and way of it 2. 'T is a Narration full of mentall Reservations high praises of your selves but censuring and scandalizing the Reformed Churches of Christ. 3. There are many untruths in it and that not only where you make naked relations oâ—… things but where you make professions before God and the world yea â—…here you make serious Invocations of God to aâ—…est them and men also and all this is done publikely by printing and deliberately and upon a designe to take the more with the people and to make way the better for a â—…oleration 4. There is a breach of the solemne Covenant subscribed by you especially in that clause of the first branch we shall endeavour to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Relegion Confission of Faith and Forme of Church-Government in stead of which before ever you â—…o much as tried and endeavoured it by debating those
nostris qui norant linguam Eelgicam frequentant SacraÌ„ coenam earum membris siqua forte nostro coetui intersint nobis cognita participamus Robin Apolog. Apolog. Letter to Mr King Mr Tost c. Apolog. Tertul. de Resur carnâ—… 〈◊〉 3. a Chamier Panstrat Cathol lib. 8. de Canone cap. 3. b Whitak de Script perfect quae 6. cap. 14. In soro non ex jure humano sed ex lege Mosis pronunciandum esse contendit Melch Adam vit Carolost Schlusselburg de Secta Schuvenckâ—…ld Cameron Sâ—… ver Iudge in controvers c. 11. Chamier Panstrat Cathol de Canone l. 8. c. 1. de persectione Scripturae Statâ—… controversiae Sect. 16. Cham. de Canone l. 8. c. 2. Sect. 20. Whitak de Script Perfect contra Hum. Tradit quae 6. c. 10. Whitak de Script perfect quaest 6. c. 6. Status quaestionis proponitur 6 Article of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures for salvation Vide 39 Articles of Relig. of Ch. of Engl. Serm. at publike Fast Novemb 29 1643. pag. 26. a Danaei Comment in 1 Tim. 5. v. 13. v. 17. Cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quadam homines omnia quae Apostolorum temporibus observata suerant sibi putarent imitanda neque locorum neque temporum neque rerum dissâ—…nilium rationem baberent eâ—…am ipsi suas Dioconissas retinere praecâ—…è voluerunt Sed cum posterioribus temporibus c. Et certe â—…is impudentes sunt Catabaptistae qui Pauli facti exempli praetexâ—… omnes verbi Dei ministros ad manualia oâ—…era cogendos esse contendunt ut victum comparent b Apostolici inter Anabaptist as cognominati sunt quia Apostolos aemulari in omnibus decreverunt Hi nudam Scripturae literam tenere se jactabant Absque baâ—…ulo calceis pera pecunia hinc inde vigabantur juxta Christi verba Ascendeâ—…ant in tecta domorum ex quibus habebant conciones quia Christus dixisset quae in aurem accepist is annunciate in tâ—…ctis Pedes sibi invicem lavabant cum puer is repâ—…erascebant hoc est pueriliter se gerebant uxores liberos domuâ—… opificia deserebant quia Christus dixisset nisi quis reliquerit doâ—…um uxorem c. propter me non potest esse meus discipulus Schluâ—…leb de Secta Anabaptist Mr Tho Goodwins answer to a letter with a Quâ—…re concerning the Church-covenant Confident we are is considence it selfe can make us that there is no commandement given to the Churches for exacting any such covenant of those that are to be admitted into Church-fellowship with them Quere concerning the Church-covenant Apolog. Apolog. 〈◊〉 I. G. Letter to T. G. Apolog. Whitaker dâ—… Eccles. Apolog. Manuscr Arg. of M. Nye against set-formes of prayer prescribed a M. Williams answer to Mr Cottons letter Queries proposed upon occasion of an Apologeticall Nâ—…ration Robinsoni Apolog cap. 12. de Eccles. Anglic. Apolog. Reform of Ch. government in Scotland cleared pag. 18. Dissert de Gub. Ecclesiae pag. 11. Robins Apol. cap. 1. de Eccles amplitudinâ—… a Polit. Ecclesiast l. 3. c. 〈◊〉 c. â—…2 b Polit. Eccles. l. 〈◊〉 c. 1. 〈◊〉 Balls friendly tryall of separation * Gersom Bucerus Dissert de Gub. Eccles. p. 11. Nos particularem Eccle siam intelligimus quemlibet credentium câ—…tum in unam vocationem divinam Evangelij praedicatioâ—…e sacrarumque institutionum observatione adunatum ac uni Presbyterio subjunctum sacros vero conventus uno out pluribus locis agitâ—…ntem Nam Paraeciarum in quibus convenitur numerus accidentaria res est nihil ad Ecclesiae particularis essentiam pertinens M. Bridges letter to M. Toâ—… M. Smith M. Henry King c. The Keyes were given to the whole Church unles we say they were given to Peter only and his successours search the Scriptures and see if you can find any place where any body or particular Church is subiect to one man or officer Reform of Ch. government cleared p. 25. a Robins Justif. of separat b Mr Burroughs on Hosea seventh Lecture p. 174. If we consider the difference between Ecclesiasticall power and civill power we shall see it cleare that there cannot be a ministeâ—…ll head of the Church c Ames Med. Theol. Iohn 4 10 22. Apolog. * Robiâ—…s Justif. of separat Robiâ—…s Catech. A representative Church in a case of faith and conscience without the consent of the represented in the particular decree establisheth the popish doctrine of implicite faith a Voetius select Disput. de quaestione peâ—…es quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica Thes 1. Thes. 4 Thes. 5. Ut auteÌ„ n ovuâ—… hic agendi modus colorem aliquem haberet tanto facilius multâ—…rum politicorum savor aut saltem Tolerantia Remonstranticis noviâ—…atibus conciaretur edituâ—… est ab Iohanne Vttenbogardo Ecclesialiste tunc Hagâ—… cometano tractatus de jure supremi Magistratus in Ecclesiasticis Eâ—…ita fuerunt Grotij piet as ordinum Episcopij disputatio de jure magistratus circa sacra Barlei declamatio seu Philippica quaedam in ministros qui orthodoxam receptam religionem tuebantur c. Praeter quae vulgares vernaculi libelli quorum numerus innumerus consiones Remonstrantium nihil aliud quam authoritatem potestatem magistratuum perstrepebant nescio qua invidia orthodoxos pastores â—…orumque legitimos coâ—…ventus actiones Ecclesiasticas gravabant Et hac quidem inprimis in dictis duabus provincijâ—… nam in Geldria aliter canebant aut Mussitabant quod Ill. Curja conatibus ipsorum minimè faveret Idem fere accidebat in Frisia Amstelredami atque alibi ubi magistratus omnia contra Presbyteria pastores non statuebat ex 〈◊〉 aut in favorem Remonstrantium Post habitam synodum Dordracenam libelli ipsorum vernaculi longè alio stilo conscripti sunt quin in ipsa Apologia quam tamen magistratibus probari volebant cap. 25. potestatem hanc non parum limitant ac contrahunt quam tamen tam liberaliter ante hac ad mensâ—… erant b Vedelius de Episcop Constant. magni pag. 3 4 5 6. Arminiani è contrario in excessu peccant Etenim ante Synodum Dordracenam contendebant sub magistratu orthodoxo Ecclesiam per se nullam babere potestatem spiritualem ministros Ecclesiae officio suo defungi nomine magistratus ita ut magistratus quia ipse per alia negotia concionari c. non possit per ministros doceat qui vices ipsius gerant in docendo quem admndum vicarius Trajani Imperatoris vices gerebat sui Imperatoris Et sic ministros non habere suam potesâ—…atem à Christo sed à Magistratu qui quidem solus eam potestatem immediatè à Christo acceperit Gubernationem Ecclesiae assignabant soli magistratui ab ea excludentes ministros nisi in quantum essent vicarij instrumenta seu servi magistratus Speciatim electionem ministrorum seu vocationem item dopositionem tribuebant soli magistraâ—… c.
not deale fairely in abridging the Scriptures and making your supreme rule so narrow as the Acts and Epistles and I might justly stand upon it to make you inlarge your rule to the books both of Old and new Testament yet well knowing the Acts of Apostles and Epistles will cast you I am well contented and most ready at that weapon alone to try it with you and care not in the present controversie of the Church-way as to let all other Authours so for the old Testament and that part of the New too the Gospells to stand by And if you can make good out of the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles by any Apostolike direction patterne or example of those Primitive Churches directed by the Apostles many things you practise and maintaine as Ordination of Ministers by the people alone as your Church-covenant as a few private Christians to gather and constitute a Church as persons to be members of such Congregations where they live constantly many miles distant from their Ministers and the meeting places with other such I will yeeld the cause and if I make not good from the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles things mainly opposed by you but affirmed by us As that of particular Churches to consist of more then can meet in one place to be edified in all parts of worship with other such then blame me So that I may say of your Church-way and the questions between us as Tertullian answered long since some hereticks That if they were to be determined by the Scriptures they would not subsist Now as to the ground of this principle within you yeur consciences were possest with that reverence and adoration of the fullnesse of the Scriptures that there is therein a compleate sufficiency as to make the man of God perfect so also to make the Churches of God perfect c. First I answer Your ground here alledged doth not prove your supreame rule without you namely the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles to be compleatly sufficient to make the Churches of God perfect because that speakes as of the whole Scriptures that there is in them a compleat sufficiencie and not as of a part now though the Scriptures may be and are so full and perfect yet every part may not you can in reason conceive that the whole may be compleatly sufficient to all ends and uses for which it was intended when a part or parts may not suffice And that Scripture which you allude unto for proofe 2 Tim. 3. v. 16 17. speakes of the whole Scripture and not of a part only the Papists would have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in that text to signifie non totam sed omnem Scripturam and so would give that praise not to the whole body of the Scriptures but to particular parts of it Learned Chamier snewes the contrary how that the whole Scripture is here rather to be understood and he proves it by a threefold argument and in this great question between us and the Papists An Scriptura Christianum perfâ—…ctum reddat resolves the question to be understood of the whole canon in the Old and new Testament And so doth Dr Whitakers by which you may judge how unsufficient and short your first principle was being only a part of the Scriptures but not the whole and you may observe the fallaciousnesse of your reason propounded to argue from the whole to a part because the whole Scriptures have a compleat sufficiencie to make the Churches of God perfect therefore the Primitive patterne and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles have too Secondly I doe also adore the fullnesse of the Scriptures and God forbid that I should take from the Scriptures any thing God gives unto them or that which in the Scripture is attributed unto it but we must not give unto the Scriptures more then what God intended them for or what the Scripture affirmes of it selfe for that is to be wise above what is written and to adde unto the word and may be and hath been a ground of dangerous consequence in the Church of God and to cleare it from your own instances of exception Meere circumstances we except c. Now suppose some to speake as you doe and to be really acted also upon the same ground of the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures should yet affirme of the Scriptures without all exception of me 〈◊〉 circumstances and of the rules which the law of nature doth in common dictate and should say nothing must be practised no not in meere circumstances but by some direction from the word and as for the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate in them also the Scripture gives light how to doe them and thereupon should speake as you doe all along in this Section would not this prove inconvenient and trouble you in your Churches Nay suppose some should so extoll the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that they should hold them so perfect and sufficient for all Christians as to be a perfect rule for all civill government and that Chrstian common-wealths ought to be governed by lawes only there recorded and by no other which opinion in substance Carolostadius held That in Courts of justice Judges should not proceed according to humane laws but according to the law of Moses and so for Military practises should hold all the way of Warre must be founded upon the Scriptures and thereupon should clamour against any other art and way of Warre then what was practised there What would you reply to these men or what strength were there in such principles would not you answer them in what sense the Scriptures were perfect and how they must understand it Men have often by giving more to the most excellent creatures and things then the Scriptures allow fallen into great errors and mistakes The Papists and Ubiquitaries speake highly of the body of Christ and 't is all in the way of magnifying it and Schuvenckfeldius did boast himselfe to be the Assertor of the glory of the flesh of Christ in Heaven which other Preachers neglected or else opposed and yet all these held great errors about the body and humane nature of Christ under the notion of advancing it So in the present controversie by giving to the Scriptures that which God hath not given to them both is and may be a ground of error And therefore I referre you for the true sense of that question concerning the fullnesse and sufficiencie of the Scriptures to make the Churches of God perfect unto the answers our Protestant Divines give the Papists in that controversie about the perfection of the Scriptures And by the way let me commend to you and all the Ministers of the Church-way to study our Protestant writers as Whitakers Chamier c. against the Papists upon the Church and of the notes of the visible Church upon the controversie concerning the
Scriptures the authority of Councels and Synods and you shall find satisfaction to most of the materiall grounds which have misled you in your Church-way In which answers you shall find that the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scripture is principally meant in matters of doctrine and in points necessary to salvation And for policie and externall order wherein the Scriptures doe reach to them it is to be understood of the Essentials Substantials and Fundamentals of Government and Discipline and not of the accidentals accessaries and circumstantials as I could abundantly out of Calvin Beza Zanchius Iunius Daneus shew you But I intend a whole Tractate upon that question of the Scriptures how farre they are a rule for all matters of externall government and order in the visible Church with an answer to this objection particularly and will not enlarge further saving only that I will adde the resolution of this question and case out of Whitaker Chamier and Cameron who are full and cleare that 't is not against the perfection and sufficiencie of the Scriptures that all matter of externall order and policie are not laid down in the word Learned Chamier shewes the judgement of the Churches of France Holland nay he shews 't is the perpetuall opinion of all the Protestants and he adds Yea truly to speake as the matter is The Church cannot be altogether without unwritten traditions and he instances in certain Rites according to places times and persons changeable and various So Cameron For since the Scripture hath been ordained of God to make one wise unto salvation and perfect unto every good work it must without doubt containe all doctrine necessary to salvation otherwise it could not attaine its end Let us then adore as Tertullian speakes the fulnesse of the Scriptures and let us not heare as Athanasius speaketh neither receive any thing besides or above them in that which concernes the doctrine of faith For touching the policie and ceremonies used in the Church it is another matter we avouch that the Fathers did not thinke themselves bound to give an account of them by the Scripture So Dr Whitakers speaks also the same in that question and controversie of the perfection of the Scriptures against humane traditions Catholici in hoc toto negotio distinguendum putant inter râ—…s quae traduntur in Ecclesia rationem earum tradendarum res ipsas esse duorum generum scilicot alias in quibus substantia est quasi conpus religionis Christianae non tantum ad fidem sed etiam ad mores formandos politiamque Ecclesiae continendam proinde necessarias ex vi institutionis divinae alias ejuâ—… essentiae velut appondices ejusque corporis ornamenta neque ex sâ—… neque ex institutiono divina necessarias sed potiuâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 politiâ—… tantum causa in usum receptas ut sunt disciplinae partos varijs caenoâ—…ibus sancitae Imo vero ut fateamur quod res est omnino non potest Ecclesia carere Traditionibus non scripâ—…is sive intelligas quotidianam tradendae fidâ—…libus ojus veritatis quae non aliunde hauritur quam è libris sacris rationem sive ritus quosdampro locis tempâ—…ribus persâ—…nis varios aptos tamen exercendae pietati charitatique conservandae qui etsi non extent in canone totidem literis tamen a nemine contemni debent eo ipso quod ab Ecclesia id est pastoribus instituti sunt dum tamen nihil officiant aut sinceritati doctrinae aut libertati conscientiae cui propriè leges prescribit non nisi Deus Non dicimus omnes liberas ceremonias esse nominatim in Scripturis traditas ut quemadmodum se gerere debeant homines in sacris caetibus hujusmodi quas esse varias 〈◊〉 pro temporum personarum ratione minime ignoramus de caeremonijs inquam liberis quae ad externam tantum politiam decorum pertinent non contendimus sed de necessaria doctrina Haec perpetua illae vero non perpetuae sed ad tempora accommodatae Deinde fatemur Apostolos in singulis Ecclesiis ritus aliquos atque consuetudines ordinis decoris causa sanxisse non autem scripsisse quia hi ritus non fuerunt perpetui futuri sed liberi qui pro commodo temporum ratione muâ—…ri possunt Praescriptos autem ab illis esse ejusmodi ritus aliquos ad honestam Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 accommodatos pater ex 1 Cor. 11. 14. cap. Tantum generalis regula habetur in Scripturis omnes istosritus ad adificationem ac decorum esse dirigendos sed ipsi particulares ritus non proponuntur At dicimus omnia quae necessaria sunt sive ad fidem sive ad vitam spectent apertè abundè in Scripturis explicari Now as for the exception made by you of this rule of meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature where what you affirme seems to amount to this that you practised all the examples of the Primitive Churches erected by the Apostles excepting those Suffer me to aske you these few questions upon your exceptions made of this first rule First What you meane by meere circumstances and what by the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate because the Reader may be much deceived in these generall and doubtfull expressions you should have done well to have particularized what you judge circumstances and what meere circumstances and what be the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as also have laid downe before the Reader how you in your Church-way keepe unto these and I aske the rather because I find a Sermon of Mr Bridge one of the Authors of this Apologie preacht before the House of Commons not long before this Apologie came forth that makes none of these exceptions but excepts and excludes them shewing that in the visible Church Gods word is our line able to reach unto all particular affaires of the Churches and in particular he labours to answer that of circumstances and perverts two sayings of Luther and Bishop Iewel Secondly Whether you doe practise and observe your own rule here given with the exceptions made by you or whether you doe not much depart from it in your Church-way not yeelding to meere circumstances nor the rules the law of nature doth in common dictate as for instance receiving the Lords Supper at night contrary to the practise of the reformed Churches standing upon that circumstance of time denying appeales from the particular Congregations whereas appeales are a rule the law of nature doth in common dictate Thirdly I demand of you how you could so nakedly propound the Apostolicall directions patternes and examples of the Primitive Churches to walke by excepting meere circumstances and the rules of the law of nature and not except withall extraordinary and miraculous personall and particular occasionall and accidentall temporary and locall patterns and examples