1. COR. 8. 2. If any man thinke that he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to knowe ¶ THE DEFENSE of the Aunswere to the Admonition against the Replie of T. C. BY IOHN VVHITGIFT Doctor of Diuinitie In the beginning are added these 4. Tables 1 Of dangerous doctrines in the Replie 2 Of Falsifications and Untruthes 3 Of matters handled at large 4 A table generall If any man be contentious we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God 1. Cor. 11. 16. †Printed at London by Henry Binneman for Humfrey Toye Anno. 1574. GAL. 5. 26. Let vs not be desirous of vaineglorie prouoking one another enuying one another ¶ To the godlie Reader IT VVERE BVT A NEEDLESSE labour to make any particular recitall of those pointes of doctrine vvhich this Church of Englande at this day doth holde and maintayne for they be at large set out in sundrie english bookes and especially in the Apologie of the Church of Englande and the Defense of the same summarily also collected together in the boke of Articles agreed vpon in the Conuocation at London Anno 1562. c. this I dare boldely affirme that all pointes of Religion necessarie to saluation and touching eyther the mysterie of our redemption in Chryst or the right vse of the Sacramentes and true manner of vvorshipping God are as purely and perfectely taught and by publike authoritie established in this Church of England at this day as euer they vvere in any church sithence the Apostles time or novv be in any reformed Church in the vvorld the vvhich to be true those that be learned euen among the myslikers of this present state can not nor vvill not denie Likevvise that all Heresies all corrupt doctrines all superstitious and papisticall opinions haue bene and be by the Prince and the Realme banished by the learned Byshops and Preachers in vvorde and in vvriting confuted vvho is so blinded vvith malice that he cannot see or so frovvard and vvilfull that he vvil not confesse VVhat shall vvethen think of those men that are so farre from acknovvledging this singular and vnspeakeable benefite proceeding from the mere mercie of God so farre from being thankfull for the same from desiring the continuance of it vvith heartie prayers that by all meanes possible they seek rather to obscure it and to deface it bicause in certaine accidentall poynts they haue not their fantasies and proper deuises If this be not to set themselues agaynst God and to trouble the peace of the Church for externall things vvhich is schismaticall let the quiet and godlie Christian iudge Hovve much better had it bene for them to haue proceeded in teaching necessarie pointes of doctrine and exhorting to obedience to concorde to godlie lyfe and conuersation than thus vvith no small reioycing of the vvicked great offence of the vveak Gospellers maruellous grief of the Queenes maiestie and other that haue the care of gouernment frovvardly to dysquiet and dysturb the Church trouble the happie peace of the cōmon vveale and hazard the vvhole state of Religion they shall one day if not to late vvell vnderstand Furthermore it behoueth all godlie mindes that vvill not be caried avvay vvith rash and ouerhastie iudgemēt in this cōtrouersie to cōsider not only that that I haue before spoken of the truth of doctrine publikely receyued and cōfirmed but also circumspectly to vveigh the circumstances of time place person and the vvhole state of things novve in this Church and Realme of Englande The regarde vvherof in mine opinion must needes cause in all discrete heades a staye of iudgement in comparison that the things themselues barely considered vvoulde do The state of this Church of Englande at this day God be thanked is not Heathenish Turkish or Papisticall in vvhich conditiō many things might be done that othervvise are not to be attempted but it is the state of a church reformed and by authoritie and consent settled not only in truth of doctrine as before is noted but also in order of thinges externall touching the gouernment of the Church and administration of the Sacramentes VVherefore the controuersie is not vvhether many of the thinges mentioned by the platformers vvere fitlie vsed in the Apostles time or may novv be vvell vsed in some places yea or be cōueniently vsed in sundrye reformed Churches at this day For none of these braunches are denyed neither do vve take vpon vs as vve are sclaundered either to blame or to condemne other Churches for such orders as they haue receiued most fit for their estats But this is the vvhole state of our controuersie vvhen vve of this Church in these perillous dayes do see that vve haue a greate number of hollovve hartes vvithin this Realme that daylie gape for alteratiō of Religiō and many mightie great enimies abroade busilie deuising and vvorking to bring the same to passe and to ouerthrovve the state both of religion and of the Realme vvhether seing vve haue a setled order in doctrine and gouernment receiued and confirmed by lavve it may stand vvith godlie and Christian vvisdome vvith disobedience to the Prince and lavve and vvith the vnquietnes of the Church and offence of many consciences to attempt so greate alteratiō as this platforme must needes bring and that for matters externall onlye and vvith such egernesse and bitternesse that they deface and discredite the vvhole state of this Church vvith al the Preachers and Ecclesiasticall gouernours of the same as remayning in horrible corruptions and Antichristian deformities and thereby fill the mouthes of the aduersaries vvith greater matter of obloquie to deface the gospell than euer of them selues they had bene able to deuise Surely I could neuer reade but that they that should so do vvere rather to be estemed troublesome and schismaticall defacers than zealous and godly reformers I knovve that no Church can be so perfect in all points of externall gouerment and ceremonies but that such as be disposed maye picke some occasion of quarrelling thereat thoughe vniustlie therefore the true members of the Church must not be to light of credit nor to redie to follovve contentious captaines For S. Paule sayeth Si quis sit contenfiosus inter vos c. If any be contentious among you we haue no such custome neyther the Churches of God c. Againe vvhen any thing is amisse it must be considered vvhether the faultes be in the thinges themselues or in the persons for vve may not vvith partiall and corrupt iudgement impute the faultes of the persons to the things vvhether they be offices or ceremonies for then should vve continuallie bee altering the state and neuer stand stedfast in any kynde of gouernment therefore in such cases vve must seke to reforme the abuses in men vve must not pull avvaye the states and offices or the thinges themselues bicause they be abused by some men But to let this passe and come to the purpose this Replie of T. C. vvhich is of some counted
it abroade gather disciples and make a new secte in shorte time we shal haue so many sectes and factions that Christe which scarce with greate payne and labor is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many partes VVherefore as you haue singularelie and vvith greate vvisdome and labour alreadie restored the true religion of Christe and banished all superstition and erroneous doctrine So likewise as the same Zuinglius sayeth in those perillous times wherein Satan seketh so busilie to In his epistle before his book de Baptismo entrap vs so that with newe cōtentions about external thinges he goeth about to trouble those whome the sworde of persecution eyther moued not or terrified not look well about you note the craftes and subtilties of them take hede of the pestilent windes of diuers doctrine let none trouble the gospell amongst you or set you at strife and variaunce And remember that as the streame that commeth dovvne from the highe mountaines being caused by much rayne and snovve taking eueriething that it meteth vvith before it the further it goeth the greater strengthe and the more aboundance of vvater it gathereth and first remoueth out of their places small stones after vvith greater violence casteth dovvne strong bridges yea huge and mightie rockes and encreaseth to that strength that nothing be it of neuer so greate force can resist or vvithstand it and in the end leueth nothing else behinde it quà m inutilem luctum quaerelas inanes miseram vastatorum agrorum segetum formam but vnprofitable mourning vaine complaintes and a miserable forme of the spoiled fieldes euen so contentionum pestis impia haeresis eodem modo progrediens non quicquam aliud quà m turpem calamito sam rerum faciem in florentissimo antè ecclesiae agro post se relinquit The plague of contention and wicked heresie proceding in like manner leaueth nothing after it but a miserable and pitifull face and shew of thinges in that place which was before the flourishing fielde of the church Consider vvhat the vviseman sayeth Prouerb 17. the beginning of stryfe is as one that openeth the waters It had bene vvell if the beginning had bene vvithstanded but seing that vvas neglected and rather by some furthered than stopped Yet novv it is time to make vp the breache This is sufficiēt to you vvhose vvisdome and carefulnesse is vvell knovvne to all those that be not vvith sinister affection blinded Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall state and desirous to kepe the peace of the Churche I haue onlie to admonishe that they be not discouraged from doing their duties bicause of the slaunderous reportes and vnchristian tauntes and contumelies that our vnquiet brethren lade them vvith knovving that it hath bene the vsuall practise of all sectaries and especiallie of Anabaptistes vvho counte them all as vvicked and vngodlie as vvorldlinges and men pleasers as idle and slouthfull that conspire not vvith them in their confused platforme I maye vse the same exhortation to you that M. Zuinglius vsed in the like time Nec quicquam vos moueant atroces illaecalumniae c. Let not those bitter reproches Zuinglius 〈◊〉 Ecclesiast and cauilling speaches wherewith the Anabaptistes and others studious of contention and discorde oppresse you moue you any thing at all bicause you rather followe Christ than them for although they call you wicked and infidels yet your selues best know what your cōfidence in God is and what is your meaning and purpose so that so often as they accuse you of impietie or of infidelitie so ofte do they minister manifest proofes vnto you that their spirite procedeth from the father of lyes And marueile not at those bitter contentions you knovve it to be true that the same Zuinglius also sayeth Nec enim aliud est communis illius hostis nostri ingenium c. This is the subtil e of our common enimie this is his manner herevnto doth he bend him selfe whollie and sleepeth not that as sone as the lord hath reuealed the light of his worde he also by and by soweth darnell this do almost all the epistles of S. Paule teach vs wherein it is manifestlie declared that there hath bene alwayes some men Pietatis simulatores potiùs quà m cultores rather feyners of holynes than embracers of it who for certaine externall and vnprofitable thinges doubt not to laye as it were greuous stumbling blockes to the doctrine of the gospell Onlie let vs be diligent in our vocation earnest against all kinde of enimies feruent in prayers for the preseruation of the Queenes maiestie and for the peace of the Church vvith the good successe of the Gospell and vigilant that errors be not published vvithout controlement and God vvill ere it be long if our sinnes deserue not the contrarie giue peace to this Church as he hath done to other disturbed in like manner To conclude I do charge all men before God and his Angells as they vvil ansvvere at the daye of iudgement that vnder the pretence of zeale they seeke not the spoyle of the Church vnder the colour of perfection they vvorke not confusion vnder the cloake of simplicitie they couer not pride ambition vayneglorie arrogancie vnder the outvvarde shevve of godlinesse they nourish not contempt of magistrates popularitie Anabaptistrie and sundrie others pernicious and pestilent errors The Lord make vs thankful for his infinite mercies and singular goodnesse bestovved vpon vs in thus long continuing his gospell preseruing our most gracious and louing Queene and ouerthrovving all the conspiracies and deuises that the diuell hath hetherto inuented to molest this state and Church ¶ A note of such dangerous pointes of doctrine as are auouched by T. C. in his Replie and quoted as they are to be founde in this Booke HE sayth that Certeine of the things which we stande vpon are suche as if euery heare of out heade were a life we ought to aforde them for the defense of them whereby he woulde insinuate that this Church of England doth mainteine some dānable doctrine pag. 44. 2 He sayth that if the Church be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted whiche smelleth of an Anabaptisticall fansie pag. 50. 3 He affirmeth that many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which soundeth to the confirmation of the very foundation of all Papistrie pag. 77. 4 He holdeth that the doctrine of free will is not repugnant to saluation and yet is it a doctrine cleane contrarie to frée iustification by Christe pag. 82. 5 He saythe that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation which is a notorious error pag. 103. 6 He vtterly denyeth that any magistrate can faue the life of blasphemers contemptuous and stubborne I dolaters
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
learnedly and truly written agaynst the common aduersaries of this Booke among whome there is one that wrote a Booke Entituled A sparing restraynt of many lauishe vntruthes which M. Doctor Harding doth chalenge in the first Article of my Lorde of Sarisburies Replye The A sparing re trayne Author of that booke writeth thus O M. Harding turne agayne your writinges examino your authorities consider your Councels applie your examples looke if any line be blameable in our seruice and take holde of your aduantage I thinke M. Iewell will accept it for an Article And a little after Our seruice is good and godly euery title grounded on holy Scriptures and with what face do you call it darkenesse This was his opinion then of our seruice And it both was then and is now my full perswasion and I will God willing performe that against you which he offred in M. Jewell his name agaynst Harding Your othnesse to enter into this fielde is but dissembled your continuall barking The Repliet his wordes contrary to his deedes agaynst the state and forme of this Church of England doth conuince you of the contrarie Neyther haue you any respect or regarde for giuing occasion o euill speach to the Papistes much lesse of prouoking your adherentes to vnduetifull speaches as you pretend your booke tending wholly to the contrary Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 3. Notwithstanding my dutie of defending the truth loue which I haue first towardes God and then towards my countrie constrayneth me being thus prouoked to speake a few wordes more particularly of the forme of prayer that when the blemishes thereof do appeare it may please the Queenes inaiestie hir honorable councell with those of the Parliament whom the Lorde hath vs o as singular instrumentes to d liuer this realme from the hote fornace and yron yoke of the popish Egipte to procure also that the corruptions which we haue brought from them as those with which we being so deepely died and stayned haue not so easily shaken of may be remoued from amongst vs to the ende that we beyng necrclicr both ioyned vnto the sinceritie of the gospell and the ollicie of other reformed Churches may thereby be ioyned nearer with the Lord and may be se te so farre from Rome that both we may comfort our selues in the hope that we shall neuer returne thither againe and our aduersaries which desire it and by this to much agreement with them and to little with the reformed Churches hope for it may not onely be deceyued of their expectation but also being out of all hope of that which they desire may the soner yeelde themselues vnto the truth wherevnto they are now disobedient Io. Whitgifte What dutie can there be in defacing a knowne and receaued truth what loue in flaundering your countrie vniustly and renting it in pieces with sectes and Schismes and prouoking the subiectes to haue mislikyng of their Magistrates and such as be placed in authoritie ouer them these be but clokes to couer an euill and vngodly purpose If you shall be able to shewe any suche blemishes in the booke of Common prayers they shall not be couered for me but if not than are you not a man to be credited I haue tolde you M. Caluines and M. Gualters opinion touching the ambitious Sup̄ra Cap. t e 13. Diuisi morositie of such as would haue all Churches framed after the example of some one and nowe I tell you agayne that there is no cause why this Churche of Englande eyther for truth of doctrine sinceritie of publike diuine seruice and other pollicie should giue place to any church in Christendome and sure I am that we are as 〈◊〉 ioyned with the Lorde our God as the members are to the bodie and the bodie to the head Our aduersaries haue o such hope vpon any suche occasion as you pretende if The aduersaries hope is in contention their hope be any it is especially in your contentions Wherein do we agrée with the Papistes or wherein do we dissent from the reformed Churches with these we haue all poynts of doctrine and substance common from the other we dissent in the most parte both of doctrine and ceremonies From what spirite come these bolde and vntrue speaches Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 4. And as for the Papistes triumphe in this case I shall not greatly neede to feare it ▪ ring that their discordes and contentions are greater a d that our stryfe is 〈◊〉 we 〈◊〉 b arther from them For the other that professe the Gospell I will desire in the name of God that they abuse not my labour to other ende than I bestowe it and that they eepe hemselues in theyr callinges committe the matter by prayer vnto the Lorde leauing to the ministers of the worde of God and to the magistrates that which apperteyneth vnto them Io. Whitgifte It is true of the Papistes but they deale in their controuersies more circumspectly and warely though they dissent in matters of farre greater importaunce and in the chiefe poyntes of their owne Religion To the professours of the Gospell you giue better Councell than you haue taken your selfe and you shewe an example contrary to your wordes and therefore how shall they beléeue you But now to the matter for hitherto you haue vttered nothing but woordes Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C Pag. 106. Sect. vlt. To come therfore to touche this matter I answere that there is fault in the matter and fault in the forme In the matter for that there are things there that ought not to be and things there are wanting in the order that should be Of the firste sorte is that we may euermore be defended The collect of Trinitie Sunday from all aduersitie Io. Whitgifte The first fault that you finde in the matter of prayer is a portion of the Collect of Trinitie Sunday wherein we pray That we may euermore be defended from al aduersitie And is this the matter you mislike let vs then consider your reason Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 1. Nowe for as much as there is no promise in the scripture that we should be free from all ad ersitie and that euermore it scemeth that this prayer might haue bene better conceyued being no prayer of faith or of the which we cā assure our selues that we shal obteyne it For if it be sayd that y the worde aduersitie is meante all euill we knowe that it hath no such signification neyther in this tongue of oures neyther in other tongues which vse the same worde in common with vs but that it signifieth trouble vexation and cala tie from all the which we may not desire alwayes to be deliuared And whatsoeuer can be alleaged for the defense of it yet euery one that is not contentio s may see that it needeth some caution or exception Io. Whitgifte I thinke no man will
Churche by publike authoritie established wherfore vntil you shew some particulars this shal be my answere that Spiritus Dei neque est mendax neque mordax The spirite of God is neyther a lyer nor a slaunderer It is but your pleasure thus generally to say That then pastors soughte their flocks now they seeke theirs for it is well knowne that there bee Pastours which seeke their flockes and not theirs Hitherto thanks be vnto God in al this discourse ther is not one peece of false doctrine of any substance ascribed to this Churche of England by these libellers therfore it hath as God will the fyrst note of the true church of Christ that is puritie of doctrine T. C. Pag. 124. Lin. 12. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page I minde to say nothing hauing before spoken of the faults of the ceremonies and rites which are vsed with vs. Io. Whitgifte The Admonition saith that then nothing was taught but Gods word now Princes pleasures mens deuises popishe ceremonies and Antichristian rites in publike pulpits defended and will neyther you nor they tell vs what those Princes pleasures c. be well it is true y t followeth in that part of my Answer for there is nothing said to the cōtrary Admonition These and a greate many other abuses are in the ministerie remayning which vnlesse they be remoued and the truth broughte in not onely Gods iustice shall be poured foorthe but also Gods Church in this realme shal neuer be builded For if they which seeme to be workinē are no workmen indeede but in name or elfe worke not so diligently and in such order as the workmaster commaundeth it is not only vnlikely that the building shall go forward but altogither impossible that euer it shall be perfited The way therefore to auoid these inconueniences and to reforme these deformities is this Your wisedomes haue to remoue Aduousons Patronages Impropriatiōs and Byshops authoritie clayming to themselues thereby right to ordeyne ministers and to bring in that old and true election which was accustomed to be (q) Act. 1. 26. 6. 2. 3. 14. 13. made by the cōgregation You must displace those ignorant and vnable ministers already placed and in their roomes appoynte suche as both can and wil by Gods assistance (r) 1 ▪ Pet. 5. feede the flocke You must plucke downe and vtterly ouerthrow without hope of restitution the Court of Faculties from whence not only licences to enioy many benefices are obteyned as pluralities Trialities Totquots c. but all thinges for the most part as in the Court of Rome are set on sale licences to marrie to eate flesh in times prohibited 1. Pet. 5. 2. to lie from benefices and charges and a great number beside of such like abhominations Appoint to euery congregation a learned and diligēt preacher ▪ Remoue Homilies Articles iniunctions a prescript order of Seruice made out of the Masse booke Take away the lordship the l ytering the pompe the idlenesse liuings of byshops but yet employ them to such endes as they were in the old Church appoynted for Let a lawfull and a godly scigniorie looke that they preache not quarterly or monethly but continuallie not for filthy lucre sake but of a ready mind So God shall be glorifyed your consciences discharged and the flocke of Christe purchased (s) Acts. 20. 28 with his owne bloud edifyed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 86. 87. Sect. 1. 2. What these great abuses by you hitherto alleadged be I trust you Discipline necessary do now fully vnderstand surely except such factious libellers suche stirrers vp of schismes such disturbers of the peace of the church such contemners of those that be in authoritie be not onely remoued but repressed God will not only of his iustice punish the magistrates of this Realme for their carelesnesse in this behalfe but also Gods gospell will therein be as much defaced with factions schismes and heresies as euer it was in the Popes time with superstition and idolatrie For surely these men that would be compted such perfect builders Libellers be vnderminers ▪ not builders be but vnderminers and destroyers and instruments of some greedy guttes and lusty toysters who to maynteyne their pride and ioylitie seeke for the spoyle of the Churche and indeede the vtter ouerthrow both of learning and religion For take from Byshops their lands and their authoritie let euery Confusion parish elect their owne minister remoue Homilies Articles Iniunctions appoynt no prescript order of seruice that is to say let there be no order prescribed to any man no law to direct him or controll him but let euery minister do what he list speake what he list alter what he list and so oft as him list to be short let euery minister be King and Pope in his owne parish and exempted from all controlemente of Byshop Magistrate and Prince and you shall haue as many kinds of Religion as there is Parishes as many sects as ministers and a Church miserably torne in peeces with mutabilitie and diuersitie of opinions Do you not see what they shoote at would they not be free from al Anabaptisme feared Ambition in the Admonitors magistracie do they not most ambitiously desire that themselues whiche they condemne in other that is Lordship and superioritie For who thinke you shoulde be chiefe in euery parish and direct the rest Surely euen the minister The Pope neuer required greater authoritie ouer al Christendom than they seke to haue ouer their parish The Pope and his Clergie did neuer more earnestly seeke and desire to be exempted from the iurisdiction of ciuil magistrates than these men do both from ellesiasticall and ciuill Princes nobles and magistrates were neuer brought into greater seruitude bondage than these men seeke to lay vpon them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 1. After a number of words without matter sayings without proofes accusations without any grounds or likelihoode of grounds as that they be instruments of greedy gutts nd lusty roysters to maynteyn them in theyr ioylitie whych notwithstanding speake ageynst Patron ges and would haue the liuings of the Church which are idlely and vnprofitably spent for the most p rt applyed to the right vses of the poore and of ministers and schollers and that they would be discharged from ciuill and ecclesiasticall subiection whiche humbly submitting themselues to the Queenes maiestie and all those that are sente of hir would deliuer the Churches and themselues for the Churches sake from the vnla ull dominion of one to the end that they might yeld themselues with their Chruches subiect to the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment of those which ▪ God hath appoynted in his word After I ▪ s y a number of such and like accusations mixt with most itter and reprochfull words vnto all which it is sufficient answer that ▪ Quod verbo dictu mest verbo sit negatum ▪ As easily denyed as sayd Io. Whitgifte
(*) Herein you haue aptly described your own nature It is a token of at nature disposed to no great quietnesse whiche rather than he would not striue striueth with himselfe Io. Whitgifte Whither I accuse them iustly or no I shall referre it to the Reader to iudge after I haue set downe their very wordes which indéede no Christian cares can paciently heare pag. 157. they say thus Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse to Which wordes if they be well marked and ioyned with the reason that followeth for players yet learne their partes without booke c. must néedes signifie a mer contempt of reading the scriptures and a mynde that thinketh lesie edifying to come by reading than by playing vpō a stage which is an vntolerable blasphemy Pages 164. and. 165. their talke of reading the scriptures tendeth wholy to this purpose to make the same altogether vnprofitable and surely no man can excuse them of this crime but he that is bent without respect to assent vnto them in all thinges though they be moste manifestly false and moste absurde But I would haue the Reader marke this one thing that speaking of a reading minister you saye It I may so call hym whereby you giue playne signification that you may not call nor esteeme them to be ministers which cannot preache Whiche if it be true then haue they not in your doctrine delyuered any of the sacramentes The marke that the Replier shoteth at so consequently so many not baptized as haue bene baptizedby thē to the proofe wherof your doctrine tendeth wholly The like he hath after warde pag. 128. Sect. 1. Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 4. And although the cause beiust and good which he defendeth yet I wyll note in a worde or two howe as though there were pitche or some worse thing in his handes he defileth whatsoeuer he toucheth Io. Whitgifte A token of a modest and quiet nature to impeache a knowne truthe for the persones sake that doth defend it Nunquid sic factitabat Paulus Did Paule so or did Peter dally in that manner Paule was content to allowe the truthe preached euen by false Prophetes But what should I compare the mylde modest and louing spirite of the Apostles with the contentious and scoffing spirite of T. C Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 4. But I would gladly learne why you do so greatly mislike of reading Zvvingfildians mislike reading of scriptures the scriptures I hope you be not Zvvingfildians is not the word of God as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or is Reading is preaching not reading preaching T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 6. First therfore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whither the worde of God is not as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or whether reading bee not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayth then the comparison of the profit and efficacie betweene one and the other is absurde yet I wyll answere to both I say therefore that the worde of God is not so effectuall read as preached For S. Paule sayth that faith commeth by hearing and hearing of the worde preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke faythe by is preaching Rom. 10. and not reading Io. Whitgifte I haue affirmed nothing so boldely which I haue not as strongly by good authorities and reasons cōfirmed to the which you haue not answered but in this manner of brawling If you did vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of preachings as M. Bucer declareth vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. and that reading of the scriptures is one of them which also the same Bucer there affirmeth then would you haue absteyned from giuing this sentence That if reading be preachyng than is the comparison of the profitte and efficacy betweene one and the other absurde for one kynde of preaching may be compared to an other without any absurditie I say that S. Paule in that chapter to the Romains by preaching doth generally Preaching for publishing the Gospell by voyce generally vnderstand all kindes of publishing the Gospel by the external voyce which comprehendeth reading as well as it doth that which you call preaching and it is greatlye against the dignitie and maiestie of the scriptures it also greatly confirmeth the error of the Papistes touching the obscuritie of the scriptures and debarring the people from reading them to saye that fayth commeth not by reading for that is to make them dumbe and vnprofitable M. Bucer vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. setteth foorth the cōmoditie of reading the scriptures The commoditie of reading the scriptures in the churche Bucer in this manner Reading of the holy scriptures was appointed to this end that both the phrase and manner of speaking of the scripture and the scripture it self might be more knowen and more familiar to the people when as they which did interprete the scriptures could not finish one little part thereof in one whole yeare In the meane time by the onely reading of the scriptures the people were maruelously confirmed in the knowledge of all the pointes and doctrine of saluation For they be in euery booke oftentimes repeated and expounded with diuers wordes that the people of that which followed might vnderstande many things which in that that went before they could not sometime perceiue and by that meanes the iudgement of the people was confirmed in all pointes of religion so that they were able to iudge of the interpretation of the scriptures and of all doctrine whiche was taught them by their owne Curates and teachers or by any other And therfore in auncient Churches this bare reading of the scriptures was greatly esteemed Of reading of scriptures God be thanked it is very well appointed in the Churche of Englande c. Thus farre M. Bucer Surely I maruell what is ment by this your straunge kinde of doctrine except you would haue the people through ignorance of the scriptures brought againe to this point that they must only depende vpon the mouth of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 14. And although reading do helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet this is gyuen to the preaching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the heartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures and the consideration of the makyng of the worlde and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacie be compated to the preaching of the worde of God Io. Whitgifte Reading of the scriptures doth not only nouryshe fayth but ingendreth faith also Reading
of Sarisburie his defense of the Apologie agaynst Maister Harding my L. of Winchesters answere to Master Fecknam Master Nowels bookes agaynst Dorman in all which this matter is very learnedly and painefully handled Admonition Is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for England is discipline meete for Scotlande and is it vnprofitable for this Realme Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes to encourage you to goe forwarde to a thorow and a speedie reformation You may not do as heretofore you haue done patche and peece nay rather goe backwarde and neuer labour to (t) Heb. 6. 1. contende to perfection But altogither remoue whole Antichrist bothe head body braunche and perfectly plant that puritie of the worde that simplicitie of the sacraments and that seueritie of discipl ne which Christ hath commaunded and commended to his church Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Hathe there beene no reformation in this Church of Englande sithence Unthankfulnesse of the Ad monitors the Queenes Maiesties reygne What say you to the abolishing of the vsurped power of the Bishop of Rome what say you to the banishing of the Masse Nay what say you to the puritie of doctrine in all poynts perteyning to saluation Is this no reformation with you O intollerable vnthankfulnesse T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 1. 2. The other poynt is in the. 138. page where he most vntruly and standerously chargeth the Authors of the Admonition and maketh wonderfull outcries as though they should denie that there had beene any reformation at all sithence the time that the Queenes Maiestie began to reigne manifestly contrarie not only to their meaning but also to their very words which appeareth in that they moue to a through reformation and to contende or to labour to perfection denying onely that the reformation which hath beene made in hir Maiesties dayes is through and perfect We confesse willingly that next vnto the Lorde God that euery one of vs is moste deepely bounde to hir Maiestie whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to deliuer his churche heere out of the spirituall Egypt of Poperie and the common wealth also and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of strangers whervnto it was so neere This I saye we willingly confesse before men and do in our prayers dayly giue most humble thanks to God therfore And by this humble sute and earnest desire which we haue for further reformation we are so farre from vnthankfulnesse vnto hir Maiestie that wee thereby desire the heape of hir felicitie and the establishment of hir Royall throne amongst vs whyche then shall be moste sure and vnremoued when our Sauiour Christ sytteth wholly and fully not onely in his chayre to teache but also in his throne to rule not alone in the heartes of euery one by his spirite but also generally and in the visible gouernment of his churche by those lawes of discipline which he hath prescribed Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition page 137. be these Is a reformation good for Fraimce The Admonitors and the Replyer mislike our reformation almost wholly c. and can it be euill for Englande is discipline meete for Scotlande c. and is it vnprofitable for this Realme To this I answering say hathe there beene no reformation in the Church of Englande since the Queenes Maiesties reigne c. what wonderfull outeryes these be or howe vntrue slaunders let the discrete Reader iudge Doth not he that sayth is a reformation good for Fraunce and can it be euill for Englande insinuate that there is no reformation in Englande In the same place they say that hitherto we haue but patched and peeced my rather gone backwarde Moreouer to what ende dothe their booke tende but to the defacing of this reformation What is it that eyther they or you commende or lyke in this Churche nay what is it that you mislike not For to the sinceritie of doctrine as it appeareth you haue little regarde all things else you vtterly cast downe neyther the authoritie of the Prince the ministerie the gouernment of the Churche the administration of the Sacraments the ceremonies the discipline the forme or matter of publike prayers nor The good they acknowledge of the Queene dissembled almoste any thing else can please you and howsoeuer nowe in wordes you confesse that you are most deepely bounde vnto hir Maiestie c. yet bothe in tongue and in deede dyners of you declare that your meaning is nothing lesse For why doe you then so vnorderly so vndoubtedly so spitefully publikely and priuately in worde and in wryting deface hir procéedings slaunder hir gouernment depraue the reformation that she hathe made with sectes and schismes deuide the Realme set dissention among the people make the Papists more stubborne driue those backe that were welnighe persuaded thrust a misliking of the state into the hearts of many Protestantes encourage hir aduersaries separate hir faythfull subiectes one from another and greatly disquiet hir selfe But I will not prosecute this matter onely I desire of God most hartily that it would please him to worke that minde and affection in you in deede that becommeth dutifull subiects and quiet members of the Churche Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 138. Sect. 1. Englande is not bounde to the example eyther of Fraunce or Englande is not bounde to other Churches for examples Scotlande I woulde they bothe were if it pleased God touching Religion in that state and condition that Englande is I woulde Antichriste were as farre from them remoued The Lorde make vs thankfull and continue this reformation we haue and graunt peace to his Church and eyther couuert the hearts of those that be enimies vnto it or remoue them T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 3. Pag. 156. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor would bring vs into a foolish paradise of our selues as thoughe we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce and Scotland he should haue vnderstanded that as we haue bin vnto them in example and haue prouoked them to follow vs so the Lord will haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example and so be mutual helpes one to an other and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christe stirred vp his Apostles that oftentimes those that are first are not forwardest but are ouerrunne of others that come after And wheras he would (*) A slanderous and malicious vntruthe priuily pinche at the reformation there for so muche as the Lorde hathe Mat. 20. humbled the one and exerciseth the other by ciuill warres and troubles he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleape in our securitie put vs in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance and that if he haue punished that people of his which haue suffered so muche for the profession of the gospell and which went with so
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
writing than you vse throughout your whole booke and truly if you had not these two letters T. C. for your name yet coulde I haue easily coniectured by the haughtinesse of the stile and contemptuous speaches who had bene the authour of the booke so well am I acquainted with your modestie and suche experience haue I of your myldnesse But it is well for nowe such as before haue thought that you had bene sine felle without gall and that butter would not melt in your mouth may perceyue that all is not vntrue that hath ben reported of you But what woulde they farther thinke if they shoulde compare you béeing that T. C. that I take you to be your othe which you once tooke when you were admitted fellowe into T. C. Item me buic Collegio fidelem beneuolum The othe which the fellowes of Tri. Col. in Cambridge do take at their 〈◊〉 futurum ei omnibus socijs ac discipulis atque etiam magistro eiusdem non solum dum in eo vixero sed etiam postea pro virili cum opus sit beneuolentiam opem praestiturū c. with this your good will vttered throughout your whole booke verily you might haue answered as well as you haue doon and had better regard both to your othe and to your brethren But to let that passe I doubte whether you meane good faith or no when you would make vs beléeue that you take vs for brethren for surely that doth not appeare either by the firste or Admonition or by this your booke if a man consider the fiercenesse and firie heat almost in euery lyne of them vttered against vs. In the second Admonition fol. 35. speaking of the Bishops which be nowe their confederates as you cal them these words in most spiteful maner be vttered And take them for better 2. Admo ▪ fo 35 who shall they are no other but a remnant of Antichristes broode and God amend and forgiue them for else they bid battell to Christ and his Church and it must bid defiance to them till they yeeld And I protest before the eternall God I take them so and thereafter will vse my selfe in my vocation and many moe too no doubt which be carefull of God his glory and the Churches liberty will vse them selues against them as the professed enimies of the Church of Christ if they proceede in this course and thus persecute as they do And therefore these be but wordes of dalyance when you saye that you cannot tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother s aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche should be bestowed in the defence of the truth In déede it ought to haue abated your outrageous and disdayneful speaches if olde rancour and desire of reuengement had not gotten in you the vpper hande For whether you deale with me lyke a brother or like an vtter enimie lette the indifferent Reader iudge What truth you haue on your side and how it is oppugned and slandered by such as you meane shall I trust appeare when your Replie is diligently compared with my Answere If you had ment the truth in good earnest you woulde haue delt more paynly in replying than you haue doone you would haue set downe my booke as I haue done the Admonition that the Reader mighte haue compared bothe together and not haue mangled it depraued it falsified it and vntruly collected of it as you haue done and almost nothing else as God willing shall appeare God graunt that it be not layde to your charge that you haue hindred Truth slaundered it and giuen the common aduersaries occasion to speake euill of it T. C. And as vnto other partes of the Gospell so soone as the Lorde openeth a doore for them to enter in there is for the most parte great resistance So in this part concerning the gouernment and discipline of the Church which is the order which God hath left as well to make the doctrine most effectual and to giue as it were a sharper edge vnto the preaching of the word as also to be a wall to keepe it and make it continue amongst vs I see there bee sundrie lettes which doe as it were with weapons stande vp to stoppe the passage and to hinder that it shoulde not be settled amongste vs. Io. Whitgifte It is true that there is greate resistance so soone as the Lorde openeth any dore to his Gospell and that by sundrie meanes and diuers kindes of men as the stories of the Churche from tyme to tyme declare and dayly experience teacheth it is also true that many vnder this pretence of right gonernment and restoring of discipline haue and doe disturbe the Churches wherin the Gospel is sincerely preached and the Sacraments rightly ministred for further proufe wherof and auoyding of tediousnesse I referre you to maister Bullinger Lib. 6. cap. 10. aduersus Anabaptist To Maister Caluine aduersus Anabaptist To Maister Gualter in his Epistle dedicatorie before his The pretence of restoring the right gouernment but a cloake for farther mischiefe commentarie vpon the first to the Corinthes Therfore this pretence of restoring the right gouernment of the Churche with so great disquietnesse of the same is but a couer to hyde the further purposes of Satan the enimie of the peace and quietnesse of the Churche T. C. With the whiche albeeit I wrestle hand to hande in this booke yet forasmuche as we haue all drunke so deepe of the cup of vntruth that we do not only stumble at blockes which other men laye in our way but oftentimes we gather lettes vnto our selues in framing a preiudice against the truth I thought good to note shortly what those stumbling blockes are and although I cannot remoue them yet to giue warning of them and to lende my hande to the weaker and simpler sorte to helpe to ouerstride them Io. Whitgifte What these stumbling blockes are and howe you will helpe the weaker and simpler sorte to ouerstride them we shall sée in the discourse that foloweth The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 2. The offences which are taken herein be either in respecte of the cause or in respect of those whiche seeke to defende and promote the cause The cause is charged fyrste with newnesse and strangenesse then as author of confusion and of disorder and laste of all as enimie to Princes magistrates and common wealthes For the fyrst besydes that it is no sufficient chalenge to say it is new and strange there is no cause why it should be counted newe which is confessed of those whiche myslyke it to haue bin for the most part vsed in the Apostles tymes nor why it should be esteemed strange which is vsed now farre and neere of this that syde the sea and of ne straungers but of those which are of the houshold of fayth And it shal more largely appeare in this boke that this is no innouation but a renouation and the doctrine
not new but renued no stranger but borne in Sion wherevnto it being before vniustly banished ought now of right to be restored Io. Whitgifte Snrely the offences are taken bothe in respecte of the persons and of the cause Neither is eyther the persons or the cause charged with any thing by mée but I am readie eyther to proue it or to retract it The antiquitie of it and the straungenesse wée must referre to be iudged of the Reader when we haue both written what we can In the meane tyme I suppose that youre deuises with the circumstances will appeare not only not to be auncient but verie straunge and lately deuised although in suche matters antiquitie is not sufficient to proue a thing conuenient excepte it agrée with the circumstances of tyme place and persons much lesse necessarie vnlesse it be in matters pertayning to saluation as shall hereafter God willing more largely be declared where also it will appeare that many of your assertions tende not to renouation but innouation and that they were neuer eyther borne in Sion or méete for Sion The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 3. And of confusion and disorder it is yet more vntruly accused For iustice may be as well accused for dooing wrong as this doctrine for bringing in disorder whose whole woorke is to prouide that nothing be done out of place out of tyme or otherwyse than the condition of euery mans calling will beare which putteth the people in subiectiō vnder their gouernours the gouernours in degree and order one vnder an other as the Elder vnderneath the Pastor and the Deacon vnderneath the Elder which teacheth that a particular Churche shall giue place vnto a prouinciall Synode where many Churches are and the prouinciall to a nationall and lykewyse that vnto the generall if any bee and all vnto Christe and his worde When on the contrarie parte those whiche stande against this doctrine are therby compelled to bring into the Churche great confusion and maruellous disorder whylest the Pastors office is confounded with the deacons whilest women doo minister the Sacraments which is lawful only for men whylest priuate men doo that which belongeth vnto publike persons whilest publike actions are done in priuate places whilest the Churche is shuffled with the common wealth whylest ciuill matters are handeled by Ecclesiasticall persons and Ecclesiasticall by those whiche be Ciuill and to be short whylest no officer of the Church kepeth his standing and one member doth take vpon it the office of an other Which things as they hazarde the armie and destroy the bodie so they doe presently hinder and wil shortly if remedie be not prouided vtterly ouerthrowe the Churche And therefore vnlesse good order bee in that whiche was broughte into the Churche by Poperye and confusion in that whyche was lefte vnto the Churche by the Apostles and that it be order that publike actions shoulde be doone in priuate places by priuate persons and by women that is appoynted to be doone by men and confusion when the contrarie is obserued and finally vnlesse order haue an other definition or nature than hitherto hath ben read or hearde of there is no cause why this doctrine which contemeth the discipline and gouernment of the Churche should be thus shamefully slaundered with confusion and disorder Io. Whitgifte It will fall out I thinke that your opinions now in question tende in déede to Where vnto their opinions tend confusion respect neither tyme place nor persons confounde degrées bring such in contempt as be in authoritie make the ignorant subiect loftie arrogant take from Princes their due authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters when as present experience and the peace and quietnesse of this Church since the beginning of the Quéenes Maiesties reigne vntill you and your companie began to broache these youre fantasies declareth that the doctrine mainteyned by those whome you counte as your aduersaries is most agréeable to order preserueth peace kéepeth euery man in his degrée and calling And truly if the gouernment of the Churche nowe allowed by publike authoritie be compared with your new deuised policie the differēce of them both wil easily appere For I pray you tel me how many of you which haue bin permitted as The admonitors agree not in their go uernment preachers in seuerall places haue consented in one kinde of gouernment nay which of you haue not troubled not onely the Towne where you haue remained but the whole Countrey reunde about also so that vndoubtedly though you be not Anabaptists as I hope you be not yet doth this propertie of theirs most aptly agrée vnto you that whersoeuer you come you make contention and kindle the fire of discorde take it as you list experience doth teache it to be so Whether we confounde the Pastors office with the Deacons or no otherwyse than it hath bene in the Apostles time and primatiue Church whether priuate men women ciuill or Ecclesiasticall persons doe more than they ought to doe or no to be short whether order according to the true nature and definition thereof be obserued or no I shall haue better occasion hereafter to discusse Now my meaning is to answer words with wordes although in no such deriding and opprobrious maner The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 4. For the thirde poynt which is that it is an enimie to Magistrates and the common welth if it be inough to accuse without proofe saye and to shewe no reason innocencie it selfe shall not be guiltlesse This doctrine was in tymes past euen by their confession which write agaynst it a friend vnto Princes and Magistrates when Princes and magistrates were enimies vnto it And can it now be an enimie vnto Princes and magistrates which are friends vnto it It helped and vpholded the common wealths which were gouerned by tyrantes and can it hynder those which are gouerned by godly Princes And in what is it an enimie to Princes and magistrates Note the variance set downe the enimitie If the question be whether Princes and Magistrates bee necessarie in the Churche it holdeth that the vse of them is more than of the Sunne without the whyche the worlde can not stande If it bee of theyr honoure it holdeth that with humble submission of mynde the outwarde also of the bodie yea the bodie it selfe and all that it hathe if neede so require are to be yelded for the defence of the Prince and for that seruice for the whyche the Prince will vse them vnto for the glorie of God and mayntenance of the Common wealth Io. Whitgifte These be but glorious wordes the truth wherof shall appeare when we come to the more particular declaration of the seuerall poyntes and if wée accuse without proofe say and shewe no reason take youre remedie agaynste vs as slaunderers and bring vs to our triall In deede the doctrine of the Gospell which is the doctrine of saluation hath ben is and will be a friend to Princes and Magistrates yea though they persecute the same
the state as they do then truly haue they to consider of such disturbers of the peace of the Church and according to their office and duty prouide a conueniente remedy for them knowing that it is the extreame refuge of Satan when by other meanes he cannot then to séeke the ouerthrow of the Gospell thorow contention about externall things The Epist. of T. C. Sect. II. An other exception against the fauorers of this cause is taken for that they propounde it out of time which is that the Jewes said that the time was not yet come to builde the Lords house but it is knowne what the Prophet answered And if no time wer vnseasonable in that kind of material building wherin there be some times as of sommer more opportune and fit than others how can there be any vntimely building in this spiritual house where as long as it is called to day men are commanded to further this worke And as for those which say we come to late that this shoulde haue bin done in the beginning and can not now be done without the ouerthrow of all for mending of a peece they do little consider that S. Paule compareth that which is good in the buylding vnto golde and siluer and precious stones and that whiche is euill layde vpon the foundation vnto stubble and hey and woode Likewise therfore as the stubble the hey the wood be easily by the fyre consumed without any losse vnto the gold or siluer or precious stones so the corrupt thynges in this buylding may be easily taken away without any hurt or hinderaunce vnto that whiche is pure and sounde And if they put such confidence in this similitude as that they will therby without any testimonie of the worde of God stay the further buylding or correcting the faultes of the house of the Lorde which by his manifest commaundement ought to be done with all spede then besides that they be verie vncunning buylders which can not mende the faults without ouerthrowe of al especially when as the fault is not in the foundation they must remember that as the mean which is vsed to gather the children of God is called a building so it is called a planting And therfore as dead twigs riotous or superfluous branches or what soeuer hindereth the growth of the vine tree may be cut of without rooting vp the vine so the vnprofitable things of the Church may be taken away without any ouerthrow of those things which are wel established And seeing that Christ and Beliall can not agree it is strange that the pure doctrine of the one and the corruptions of the other should cleaue so fast together that pure doctrine can not be with hir safetie seuered from the corruptions when as they are rather lyke vnto that parte of Daniels image which was compounded of claye and iron and therfore coulde not cleaue or sticke one with an other Io. Whitgifte They did not only propound it out of time after the Parliament was ended but out of order also that is in the maner of a libell with false allegations and applications of the Scriptures opprobrious speaches and slaunders not to reforme but to deforme the Church and to confound al. The rest in this part is Petitio principij the petition of the principle for you take that as confessed true which will not be graunted vnto you as shall more at large hereafter appeare The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 12. It is further sayd that the setters forward of this cause are contentious and in mouing questions giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion and to the weake of offence But if it be founde to be both true which is propounded and a thing necessarie about whiche we contende then hath this accusation no ground to stand en For peace is commended to vs with these conditions if it be possible if it lye in vs. Now it is not possible it lyeth not in vs to conceale the Rom. 1 ▪ Cor. 10. truth we can doe nothing against it but for it It is a prophane saying of a prophane man that an vniust peace is better than a iust warre It is a diuine saying of an heathen man 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is good to contend for good things The Papistes haue no matter of reioycing seyng they haue greater sharper controuersies at home and seing this tendeth both to the further opening of theyr shame and thrustyng out of their remnants whych yet remayne among vs. The weake may not be offended consyderyng that euen in the Church of God and among those of the Churche there hathe bene as greate varieties of iudgementes as these are For what weightier controuersies can there be than whether wee shall ryse agayne or no These were offences but woe to the authors whether circumcision were necessarye to be obserued of those whych beleeued And yet the fyrste was amongest the Churche of the Corinthes the other was fyrst in Hierusalem and Antioche and after in the Churches of Galatia and yet they the Churches and that the true religion whyche was there professed Io. Whitgifte It is very true and sufficiently proued in that Answere to the Admonition that the authours thereof bée contentidus and giue occasion to the Papistes of staundering the religion professed and to the weake of offence For whosoeuer troubleth the peace of the Churche or deuide themselues from the Churche for externall thinges they be contentious but these men doe so therefore they be contentious the maior proposition is grounded vppon the woordes of Saincte Paule 1. Corinth 8. 9. and. 10. but especiallye vppon these woordes of the. 11. Chapter If anye bee contentious we haue no suche custome neyther the Churches of God Whereas he purposely speaketh of such as be contentious for externall matters wherevpon that is grounded that Bullinger saith That those be contentious which trouble and deuide the Bulling church for externall things And that also whiche Zuinglius in his book de baptismo speaking of contentious Anabaptistes writeth They goe about innouations of their owne priuate authoritie in those Churches where the Gospell is truly taught and that in externall Zuinglius de baptis things And in his Ecclesiastes he calleth them authours of contentions and troublers of the church which striue about externall matters And surely this is an euident token that Zuingl in ecclesiast the accusation is true bicause they and their companions for the mosre parte make contention wheresoeuer they come and especially in those places where the Gospell hath with most diligence bin taught as experiēce sufficiently proueth Furthermore the time and maner of publishing their pamphlets argueth y e same most euidently The truth and necessitie of those things for the which they contend rest as yet in triall Surely if they be matters necessarie to saluation then is there some iust cause of breking the peace of the Church for them but if they be matters of
no such weight then can you not excuse eyther your selfe or them In déed the Papists haue no iust matter of reioycing for they disagrée both in me also in far greater matters thā these be euen in y e chiefest points of their religion but this is no sufficient excuse for vs we may not disagrée in truth bicause they disagrée in error Neither ought the weak to be offended bicause such cōtentions haue bin vsual in the Church as I haue also shewed in myne Epistle dedicatorie to the Churche of England But yet wo be vnto those by whome suche offences come T. C. And it is to be remembred that these controuersies for the most part are not betwene many For sundry of those things which are cōprehended in the answer to the Admonition haue as I am persuaded few fauorers of those especially which are of any stayed or soūder iudgement in y e scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other Churches so that in deed the father of that answere excepted we haue this controuersie oftentimes rather with the Papistes than with those whiche professe the Gospell as we doe Io. Whitgifte Certainly I do not willingly defend any thing against the word of God or of mine own priuate persuasion but I haue either sufficient warrant of the worde of God or some godly lerned zelous authors iudgement for the same If I haue done otherwise I trust I shal heare of it in this booke but I am fully persuaded that all men of stayed and sound iudgement ioyne with me in these matters such especially as haue had the beste experience of the order and gouernment of other reformed Churches for proofe whereof I referre you to the wisest godlyest and best learned among the clergie in this lande T. C. And where as last of all it is sayde that this precedeth of enuie of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause whiche is neither enuious singular nor popular and although they be such as might be seuerally by greate likelyhodes probabilities refuted yet bicause the knowledge of these things pertaineth only to God which is the searcher of the heart raynes and for auoyding of to much tediousnesse we will reste in his iudgement tary for the day wherin the secretes of hearts shal be made manifest And yet all men doe see how vniustly we be accused of singularitie * Notable vntruths as wil fal out in triall which propound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teache the writers both olde and newe for the moste parte affirme the examples of the Primitiue Churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme Io. Whitgifte Whether if procéede of enuie or no lette the manner bothe of their and your writings declare Popularitie you can not auoyde séeing you séeke so greate an equalitie committe so many thyngs to the voyces of the people and in sundrye places so greately magnifye and extoll them than the whyche thrée what can bée more popular Singularitie and the properties therof It is Singularitie to deuyde youre selfe from that Churche whyche bothe professe the woorde of God truely and is not to bée touched in any poynte of doctrine necessarie to saluation It is true that a godly learned writer sayth Charitie Musc. in 〈◊〉 Mat. knittes together and reconcileth singularitie cutteth in peeces and diuideth it is the beginning and roote of all heresie to hate contemne the cōmunion of the church And a little after There be some contentious persons whom no church can please always hauing some thing to blame in other but nothing in themselues which is a manifest signe of singularitie But bicause the mindes and affections of men are certainly knowne only to God the determinate iudgement hereof I also referre vnto him As for this bolde assertion that you propeund nothing that the scriptures doe not teach c. howe true it is must hereafter by examination appeare The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 13. All these accusations as wel against the cause as the fauourers therof albeit they be many and diuers yet are they no other thā which haue bin long sithens in the Prophets apostles our sauior Christs now of late in our times obiected against the truth the professors therof And therefore as y e sunne of the truth then appered brake through al those clouds which rose against it to stop the light of it so no doubt this cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those sclanders could not bring the truth in disgrace with those y t loued it so the children of y e truth through these vntrue reports wil neither leaue the loue of this cause which they haue alredy cōceiued nor yet ceasse to enquire diligently to iudge indifferētly of those surmises which are put vp aagaynst it Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course which men of any sect though not truly wil apply vnto thēselues if they be otherwise delt with than they can wel beare The truth certainly can not be kept vnder by any meanes and yet sometime error ouershadoweth the truth euen as the cloudes do the Sunn My hope also is that men will not be caried away with slaunderous reportes ▪ for if they shoulde then musre you néedes preuayle but with sounde reasons and the truth of the cause The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 14. Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercōmed al these lets climed ouer them when they wer cast in our way to hinder vs from cōming frō the grosse darknesse of Poperie vnto y e glorious light of the Gospel there is no cause why now they shuld stay our course to further perfection cōsidering that neither the stile is higher now thā it was before being the very selfe same obiections in all this time we ought so to haue grown in knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the Gospell that they shoulde be as the feete of a hynde able to surmount euen a wall if neede were Io. Whitgifte There is but one truth that is certain whē we haue obteined if we must therin remain constant without altering whosoeuer shal ouerleap or ouerrun this wall must of necessitie procure vnto himself great danger and therfore according to the olde prouerbe Looke before thou leape We must grow in faith knowledge always be growing going forward but it doth not therfore follow y t we must dayly inuent new opinions or broach new dectrines alter in iudgement we must grow in strength of faith we must increace in practise and loue of vertue we must studie to encrease our knowledge that we may be the more confirmed in the truthe that we haue learned out of the worde of God This is an euill collection we must grow in the knowledge of
vp to the Councell in the time of king Edwarde the sixte the true Copie wherof I haue Surely he was no Adamite but a man of singular iudgement and learning Touching my reading in the Schooles whiche you héere opprobriously obiect vnto me thoughe I knowe that the Uniuersitie had a farre better opinion of me than I deserued and that there were a great many whiche were in all respectes better able to doe that office than my selfe yet I truste I did my duetie and satisfied them What logike I vttered in my Lectures and howe I read I referre to their iudgementes who surely if they suffred me so long to continue in that place augmented the stipende for my sake and were so desirous to haue me still to remayne in that function reading so vnlearnedly as you woulde make the worlde beléeue I dyd may be thoughte either to be without iudgement them selues or else to haue bin very carelesse for that exercise Well I will not speake that whiche I mighte iustly speake by this prouocation of yours For I counte this either an heathenishe or a chyldishe kinde of confuting to fall from the matter to the deprauing of the person God graunt that we bothe may so knowe our giftes and our selues that we may acknowledge them to be his and employ them to the edifying of the Churche not to the disgracing one of another Scientia inflat c. I did knowe that this my booke should come into the handes bothe of the learned and vnlearned and therfore as néere as I could I did frame my selfe to serue them bothe And bicause all or the moste parte of your proofes consiste of these or the lyke kinde of arguments I thought it conuenient to set downe a note of them before my booke and that for the learned sake wherof I do not repent me neither do I thinke that it commeth out of place But to obserue what arte heere is shewed you would gladly knowe you say what place of the fallacions either an argument ab authoritate negatiue is or of negatiues by comparison c. I maruell that you will so openly dally I intitle this treatise A briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the booke c. And afterwards I call them argumentes I doo not call them fallacions whiche notwithstanding I mighte haue done in some respecte but seeing you cauill about words tell me where I call either an argument ab authoritate negatiuè or of negatiues by comparison fallacions Doo you not blushe to trifle on this sorte and to séeke occasion of cauilling in so small matters I am sure that you are not so ignorante in Logike but that you knowe there be many false argumentes whiche be not amongest the fallacions What saye you to an argument à specie negatiuè and suche lyke What say you to an argument ex solis negatiuis or ex solis particularibus or to that that otherwise dothe offende in any moode or figure or to be shorte to suche as be in any place of Logike negatiue or affirmatiue when the nature of the place will not beare it For you knowe that in some places only negatiue reasons hold in some other places only affirmatiue Concerning an argument ab authoritate negatiuè that it is no good argumente Arg. ab autho ritate negatiuè all Logicians confesse neither is he to be thoughte to haue any skill in Logike at all that will denie it Onely the authoritie of the Scripture is to be excepted in matters pertayning to saluation or damnation bicause therein it is perfecte and absolute as I haue declared in my answere to the Admonition Touching the argument of négatiues by comparison which you thinke to Arg. of negatiues by comparison be so straunge it is moste vsuall in the Scriptures and moste consonant to reason when God sayde vnto Samuell 1. Reg. 8. They haue not refused thee but me He ment not absolutely that they had not reiected Samuell but by that one negatiue by comparison he vnderstandeth two affirmatiues that is that they had reiected Samuell and not him alone but chiefly they had reiected God But of this kinde of argument looke the. 2. booke and 12. chapter of worthy Cranmer Archbishop of Canterburie which he writeth of the Sacrament where he answering the obiections of the Papistes out of Chrysostome touching transubstantiation handleth this argument at large and setteth it out by many examples to the whiche place I referre the Reader and you too that you may sée your lacke of discretion in finding faulte where none is Those be but slender answeres to these arguments except you quit your selfe better in the rest of your Replie it had bin mnche safer for your cause to haue still kept silence Io. Whitgifte A briefe examination c. The thirde kynde of argument is called petitio principij whych is Arg. à petitione principij when a man frameth vnto him selfe principles of his owne deuise grounded neither vpon authoritie neither yet vpon substantial reason and then vpon the same will conclude his purpose whiche is vitiosissimum genus argumentandi a very erroneous kynde of reasoning as these men do in vsing these two false principles the one when they say that to be inuented by an Antichristian Pope which was not so inuented the other when they say that nothing may be vsed in the Church of Christ which was inuented by the Pope or vsed in the Popes Churche which can not be true as in sundrie places of the booke I haue declared The selfe same reasons moued the Aërians to forsake the order of the Church and to commaunde their disciples to do the contrarie of that that the Churche did We borrowe good lawes of the Gentiles and we vse the Churches Belles Pulpits and many other things vsed of Papistes c. The fourth kinde of reason is of negatiues by comparison as thys Arg. à negatiuis per come parationem Priestes and Ministers are to be knowne by their doctrine not by their apparell Ergo they ought not to haue distinct apparell from other men This argument followeth not for negatiues by comparison are not simply to be vnderstanded but by the way of comparison And therfore of the former sentence thus we may conclude that the apparell is not to be esteemed as a note of difference in comparison to learning and doctrine and yet a note As when Paule sayth that Christ sent him not to baptise but to preache the Gospel 1. Cor. 1. And God by his Prophet I will haue mercy and not sacrifice Ose. 6. and Mat. 9. The fifte is ab eo quod est non causam vt causam ponere vvhen that is taken for Arg. à non causa pre causa the cause of any thing vvhich is not the cause As when they condemne the booke of Common prayer a prescript forme of seruice bicause as they say it maynteineth an vnlearned or as they terme it a reading ministerie when as
Archbishop dyd with their factiousnesse trouble the Church Whiche words I added to declare how vntruely the Papistes doe abuse that place of Cyprian to proue the Popes authoritie ouer all the Churches when he onely speaketh of the authoritie of an Archbishop or Bishop in his owne prouince or dioces True it is that Cyprian doth not speake of the authoritie of the Byshop of Rome ouer all Churches but of the authoritie that Cornelius then Bishop of Rome or Cyprian himselfe had in his owne prouince neither wil any denie this but Papists Now to peruert this my plaine meaning and to father on me whether I will or no this argumente he speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome and therfore of an Archbishop argueth a mynd disposed to con and a stomacke desirous rather to deface the person than to giue care to the matter T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 9. And in the. 71. pag. * Other vntruthe ▪ There must be superiours Ergo one minister must be superiour vnto an other There must be degrees therefore there must be one Archbishop ouer a prouince Io. Whitgifte There are no such reasons those that be in that place alleaged are onely out of Hierome and Chrisostome and of greater force than wil be truely answered T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 10. And in the. 73. there was one ouer euery congregation therefore there was one ouer all the ministers Another vntruth in the prouince These and a number like vnto these M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his booke which as Nero sayd of his maister Senecas workes cleaue together like sand and thus let it be seene whose argumentes are most iustly concluded those of the Admonition or these of M. Doctors Io. Whitgifte It is a shame to lye of the deuill Where finde you in all that page any such argument or similitude of it but surely you haue done me a great pleasure who searching my booke so diligently for arguments to quit the Admonition haue not founde one but most vainely and vntruely fained those to be which be not Truly I do not think my selfe in euery circumstance to be so circumspecte but that I may minister sometime matter to a quarreller howebeit as yet you haue not founde any thing for your purpose And I shall most hartily desire the reader to iudge of the rest of your doyngs euen according to these beginnings An Exhortation to such as be in authoritie and haue the gouernment of the Church committed vnto them whether they be Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall Magistrates Io. Whitgifte COnsidering the strangenesse of the time the varietie of mens mindes and the maruellous inclinations in the common sort of persons especially where the Gospel is most preached to imbrace newe inuented doctrines and opiniōs though they tende to the disturbing of the quiet state of the Church the discrediting and defacing of such as be in authoritie and the mainteining of licenciousnesse and lewde libertie I thought it good to set before your eyes the practises of the Anabaptistes their conditions and qualities the kinde and manner of their beginnings and proceedings before the broching of their manifolde and horrible heresies to the intent that you vnderstanding the same may the rather in time take heede to such as proceede in like maner least they being suffred too long brust out to worke the same effect I accuse none onely I suspect the authors of this Admonition and their fautours what cause I haue so to do I refer to your selues to iudge after that I haue set forth vnto you the Anabaptisticall practises euen as I haue learned in the writings of suche famous and learned men as had themselues experience of them when they first began in Germanie and did both personally reason with them and afterwardes very learnedly write against them neither will I in this point write one word which I haue not my author to shew for An answere to the Exhortation to the ciuill Magistrates T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 1. IT is more than I thought could haue happened vnto you once to admitte into your minde this opinion of Anabaptisme of your brethren which haue alwayes had it in as great detestation as your selfe preached against it as much as your selfe hated of the folowers and fauourers of it as much as your selfe And it is yet more strange that you haue not doubted to giue out such slaunderous reportes of them but dare to present such accusations to the holy and sacred seate of iustice and therby so much as in you lyeth to corrupt it to call for the sword vpon the innocent which Bigge wordes is giuen for their maintenance and safetie that as it is a boldnesse vntollerable so coulde I hardly haue thought that it could haue fallen into any that had caried but the countenance and name of a professor of the Gospell much lesse of a Doctor of diuinitie Before you will ioyne with vs in this cause you will place vs whether we will or no in the campe of the Anabaptistes to the ende you might therby both withdraw al frō aiding vs which are godly minded as for that you fearing as it seemeth the insufficiencie of your pen might haue the sworde to supply your want other wayes And if we be founde in their campe or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the Church efacers of such as be in authoritie mainteyners of licenciousnes lewde libertie as you do seeme to charge vs with we refuse not to go vnder those punishments that some of that wicked sect receiued for iust recompence of their demerites You say you will not accuse any (a) A charitable iudgement and yet before he reproued the l ke I know it is for want of no good will that you do not accuse them of whose condemnation extreme punishment we might be sure if your hand were as strong as your harte But you suspect the authors of the Admonition and their fautors * Charitie is not suspitious Let vs therefore see whether there be iuste 1. Cor. 13. 5. matter to beare out and to vphold this suspition You will beare men in hand that if we be not alreadie full Anabaptists yet we are in the way thither the fotesteps wherby you trace vs must be considered Io. Whitgifte There is no cause why you should so maruaile at the matter all things well considered neither do I thinke that the Anabaptistes do so greatly detest and hate them as you woulde make vs beleue I do not accuse them of the doctrine of Anabaptisme as you your selfe in the ende of this section do acknowledge but I declare that I greatly suspect them bicause they come so neare vnto the qualities and practises of the Anabaptistes and vse the same beginnings whether this my suspition be true or no I referre it to the iudgement of others If the reportes be slaunderous let them take their lawfull remedie against me but if they be most manifest then it is conuenient that the Magistrates haue
is especiall occasion to moue men to prayer to vnitie and to the embracing of the substance of Religion which by all meanes is sought to be ouerthrowne Where preache you them euen where they doe least good and most harme in places where the Gospell hath bene alreadie planted yea and often times in secrete conuenticles and corners which the truth neuer séeketh but vpon extreme necessitie and before whom preache you not before such as haue authoritie to redresse but before the common people who although some of them be godly and sober yet for the most parte be greatly delighted with nouelties loue such scholemaisters as teach libertie and continually inueigh against superiors All this beyng true as you can not denie it to be true there is no cause why you shoulde be offended with the setting downe of the first article To preach the Gospell is a thing necessary vnto saluation to preach that circumcision and suche like ceremonies be not matters of saluation is a necessarie doctrine of the substance of Religiō Zuinglius and Oecolampadius and other differed frō Luther in some matters of substance and yet did they orderly and lawfully with the consent of their Magistrates procéed in these matters wherfore these examples helpe you nothing for the matters you contend for be not of y e same nature neither do you procéede in like maner The same answere may be made to all other like examples that you can vse in these matters But bicause I will not leane onely to mine owne iudgement in this case let it not gréeue you if I set downe M. Zuinglius opinion touching the same who in his booke called Ecclesiastes speaking against the Anabaptistes saith on this sort If they were sent of God endued with the spirit of God they woulde haue Zuingl in ecclesi construed in the best parte these externall things which be not as yet rightly reformed they woulde haue become all things to all men that they might haue wonne all to Christ. c. M. Caluine also in his booke against y e Anabaptists saith that whē vnder the colour of a Caluin aduersus Anabap. zeale of perfectiō we cā beare no imperfectiō either in the body or in the members of the Church it is the deuill which puffeth vs vp with pride and seduceth vs with hypocrisie to make vs forsake Christs flocke Whatsoeuer you alleage for the saluing of your contentious doctrine out of y e. 10. of T. C. vseth the same defense for his contentiō that the Anabaptists do Mathew verse 34. y e same do y e Anabaptists vse for their excuse also as Zuinglius testifieth in his Ecclesiastes his words be these Their doctrine bringeth forth nothing but contention tumults in the defense wherof they alleage that Christ said I came not to sende peace but the sword to whō we answere that this sword hath no place among the faithful Zuing. in ec for it diuideth the faithfull frō infidels but they make contentiō and brawling among the The sworde which Christ sendeth is not betwene the faithfull faithfull that for externall things Hetherto Zuinglius which is a sufficiēt answere to you also vsing y e same excuse mouing cōtentiōs in like maner matters The same sense haue the words of Christ. Luc. 12. ver 49. for the Gospel is a sword that deuideth the faithfull from infidels but not the faithfull among themselues It is the greatest offence to the simple and most worthy of Christian teares and weeping that men shoulde cloake and colour their arrogancie contention and errors with a false pretence of godly zeale for the purytie of fayth the sinceritie of the Gospell and the reformation Bucer in 4. Eph. of the Churche as Maister Bucer in 4. ad Ephe. saith that somedyd euen in his time What you thinke and teach of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate will appeare hereafter more plainely in some other partes of your booke your additions to your protestation of allowing Magistrates and of your obedience to them may colour your abridging of their authoritie For if they commaunde you any thing wherein you intende not to obey you may say they commaunded not that in the Lorde and that it is against your conscience These exceptiōs or excuses be very general may with you who in all things pretende the worde of God and conscience strayghten the authoritie of the Magistrate to your owne purpose But hereof we shall something more playnely although not fully vnderstande your opinion hereafter The same Protestation that you make it may appeare that the Anabaptistes made also in the beginning as Zuinglius declareth in his Ecclesiastes I. VV. The seconde Article pag. 2. Sect. 2. Secondly they bitterly inueyed agaynst ministers and preachers of the Gospell saying that they were not ordinarily and lawfully Bul. fol. 1. 〈◊〉 18. 87. 102. 244. called to the ministerie bicause they were called by the Magistrate and not by the people that they preached not the Gospel truly that they were Scribes and Pharisies that they had not those thinges which Paule required in a minister 1. Tim. 3. That they did not themselues those things which they taughte vnto other that they had stipends and laboured not and therefore were ministers of the belly that they could not teache truly bicause they had great liuings and liued wealthily and pleasantly that they vsed not their authoritie in excommunication that they attributed to muche vnto the Magistrate T. C. pag. 3. 4. There was neuer Heretike so abhominable but that he had some truthe to cloke his falshode should his vntruthes and blasphemies driue vs from the possession of that whiche he holdeth truely no not the Diuell him selfe saying that God had giuen his Angels charge ouer his can thereby wring this sentence from vs why we should not bothe beleeue it and speake it beeing a necessarie truthe to beleeue and speake You may as well say we are Anabaptistes bycause we say there is but one God as they dyd one Christ as they dyd c. And heere I will giue the Reader a taste of your Logike that you make so muche of in your booke * This is your owne Logike these be arguments of your owne framing The Anabaptistes say that the Churches should choose their ministers and not the Magistrate and you say so therfore you are Anabaptistes or in the way to Anabaptisme The Anabaptistes complayned that the Christians vsed not their authoritie in excommunication and so do you complayne therefore you are Anabaptistes or in the way to them I will not lay to your charge that you haue not learned Aristotles Priorums which sayth it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as often as the meane in any syllogisme is consequent to bothe the extremes But haue you not learned that which Seton or any other halfepeny Logyke telleth you that you can not conclude affirmatiuely in the seconde figure And of thys sorte are
hande and speake things that the eyes and eares of all men fee and heare to be otherwyse 〈◊〉 yo 〈◊〉 them to the Anabaptistes and Donatistes 〈◊〉 friende of yours mighte thinke you sayde 〈◊〉 bycause suche alway s seekyng darke and solitarie places myghte happely haue some fauourers whych are not knowne But when you ioyne them wyth the Papistes whych are commonly knowne to all men whose doctrine they imp gne as (*) And yet in defacing and depr uing this Church of England they fully ioyne wyth them and so oe not I. well as you whose markes and badges they can lesse awaye wyth than you whose companie they flie more than you whose punishment they haue called for more than you for your parte haue done and therefore are condemned of them as ruell when you oftentymes carie awaye the name of myldnesse and moderation whych forsothe knowe as you haue professed no commandement in the Scripture to put heretickes to death when I saye you ioyne them thus wyth the Papistes you doe not nely 〈◊〉 your credite in these vntrue furmises wherein I truste wyth the indifferent reader your neuer had any but you make all other things suspected which you 〈◊〉 so that you gyue 〈◊〉 occasion to take vp the common prouerbe agaynst you I wyll truste you no farther than I see you After you haue thus yoked them with the Papistes you go aboute to shewe wherein they drawe wyth them Wherein I fyrst aske of you if all they that affyrme or doe any thyng that the enimyes of the Churche doe are forthwith oyned and conspired with them against the Church what (a) I say that neither Christe nor Paule ioyned either with Gentil Phariseis or false Apostles against the church say you to S. Paule that ioyned wyth the * Pharise s Act. 23. v. 6 in the resurrection with the false Apostles in taking no * wages of the Corinthians our 2. Cor. II. v. 12. Sauiour Christ which spake agaynst the Jewes which were then the onely people of God as the Gentils dyd which were their enimyes will you saye therefore that eyther Sainte Paule Cor. 9. ioyned wyth the Phariseys or false Apostles agaynst the Churche or that our Sauiour Christ ioyned agaynst the Jewes wyth the Gentils but let vs see your slaunders particularly Io. Whitgifte The same Salomon sayth that in the mouthe of the foolyshe is the roote of pride Pro. 14. c. Euen so it falleth oute with you for whylest with suche proude wordes you séeke to dryue at me you doe but condemne your selfe of follye Pylate and Herode Men of contrarie iudgements ioyne togither against the truthe were at enimitie betwi te them selues and yet they wyned together againste Christ The Phariseis and Saduces were of contrarie opinions yet were they both enimyes to the doctrine of Christ. The Turke and the Pope be of contrarie Religions yet doe they both conspire agaynst the Gospell Papistes and Anabaptistes agrée not eyther in opinion or in societie yet doe they both séeke to deface the Church of Christe Euen so they thoughe they impugne the doctrine of the Papists neuer so ly cast away their markes and badges neuer so farre from them though they cannot abyde theyr companie yet doe they wyth them by the same assertions thoughe not by the same argumentes assaulte this Churche of Englande and bende their force against it Dyd not the seditious Iewes within Ierusalem ioyne wyth the Romains beyng their enimyes inprocuring the destruction of that Citie you are not so ignoraunt as you woulde séeme to be I am sure you vnderstande my meaning Howe or where you haue called for the punishement of the Papistes more than I haue 〈◊〉 and therefore you counted cruell and I made and moderate certaynely I knowe not I heare onely your selfe saye so What I haue done and where I minde not to bragge of at this time I leaue that for you What I haue professed concernyng the putting to deathe of Herotickes the same doe I professe still and am ready thereof to gyue an accompte at all tymes as I shal be required although neyther you nor any man else haue heard me teach that doctrine or professe it but thys is one of your glances by the waye when occasion is gyuen me to speake of that matter I wyll plainely vtter my conscience by the grace of God In the meane tyme it is no cause why I shoulde be better thoughte of among the Papistes for bothe theyr practise and theyr doctrine is eleane contrarie To your question I answere that if they doe that against the Church which the enimyes doe against the same then doe they in that conspire wyth them against the Churche and therefore all your example 〈◊〉 vsed are to no purpose at all For Saynt Paule ioyned wyth the Phariseys and wyth the false Propheteo in those thyngs which were allowed of the Churche and for the commoditie of the Church and therefore in no respecte agaynst the Churche the same answere I make to the example of Christe iustly reprouing the Iewes if you woulde haue vsed apte examples for your purpose then shoulde you haue broughte in suche as beyng of contrarie iudgementes haue notwythsta dyng soughte to ouerthrowe one and the selfe same thing althoughe by diuers meanes But then shoulde you haue concluded agaynst your selfe as you must of necessitie dee So that here where you would séeme to say much you haue saide nothing at all Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 5. Sect. vlt. First the Papistes affirme that we are not the true Churche no that we haue not so much as the outward face and she we of the true Church and so doe these men almost in flat and playne termes T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 1. They doe not denie but there is a visible Church of God in England and therefore your sayings of them that they doe almost in plaine and flat termes say that we haue not so muche as any outwarde face and shewe of the true Church argueth that you haue almost no loue in you whieh vpon one word once vttered contrarie to the tenour of their booke and course of their whole life surmise this of them and how truely you conclude of that word scarce it shall appeare when we come to that place Io. Whitgifte They doe in playne and flat termes write as muche as I doe reporte of them in this article for a manyfest proofe thereof referre the reader to the. 6. page of the seconde Admonition and the. 53. of the first Admonition and to the whole discourse of both My almost is equiualent to they ▪ searse But whosoeuer shall well considèr the tenour of theyr bookes and the course of their lyfe may easily vnderstande that both I myghte haue leftē oute my almost and they theyr scarse lykewise Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 1. Secondly the Papistes say that we haue no ministerie no Byshops no pastours bicause they
substance euen the principall poyntes where in we differ from them Wherefore this comparison of yours standeth vpon a false grounde For I am fully persuaded that you and they doo the Pope great good seruice and that he woulde not misse you for any thing For what is his desire but to haue this Churche of Englande whiche he hathe accursed vtterly defaced and discredited to haue it by any meanes ouerthrowne if not by forreyne enimies yet by domesticall dissention And what fitter and apter instrumentes coulde he haue had for that purpose than you who vnder pretence of zeale ouerthrowe that whiche other men haue buylded vnder colour of puritie seeke to bring in deformitie and vnder the cloke of equalitie and humilitie would vsurpe as great tyrannie and lofty Equalitie made a cloke for ambition Lordlykenesse ouer your parishes as euer the Pope did ouer the whole Churche For who should be the chiefe man of the segniorie but the Pastor what state and degrée of men soeuer else were in that parishe yea the Prince hir selfe looke their Admonitions and especially the seconde and this booke also and tell me whether it be so or no Wherefore these glorious wordes of yours be but mistes to blinde the eyes of the simple in lyke manner and to the like purpose vsed of the Anabaptistes agaynst Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer and suche like sincere professors of the word In the second edition of the answere to the Admonition of God Peruse the notes that I haue collected not onely out of Bullinger but out of Zuinglius and Gastius also and you shall sée them in all poyntes to vse these plausible pretences and to accuse their aduersaries after the like maner Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. vlt. Heereby it is manyfest that the Papistes and they ioyntly doe seeke to shake nay to ouerthrow the selfe same foundations groundes and pillers of our Churche althoughe not by the selfe same instrumentes and engines Wherefore it is tyme to awake oute of sleepe and to drawe oute the sworde of discipline to prouide that lawes whiche be generall and made for vniformitie aswell of doctrine as ceremonies be generally vniuersally obserued that those which according to their consciences and duty execute them be mainteined and not discouraged Either boldly defend the Religion kind of gouernment in this Realme established or else if you can reforme and better the same for it can not be but that this freedome giuen to men to obey and disobey what they list to speake what they list against whom they list and where they list to breche what opinions doctrine they list must in the ende burst out into some strange dangerous effect The Lord both graunt vnto you that be Magistrats the spirit of gouernment and to all other that be subiects the spirite of true obedience Amen T. C. Pag. 9 Sect. 1. After you haue all to be blacked and grimed with the inke of Anabaptisme Donatisme and Note the mildenesse of the â—an in this section A charitable surmise Papisme those whome you founde cleare from the least spot or specke of any of them You whette the sworde and blow the fire and you will haue the godly Magistrate minister of your choler and therefore in stead of feare of leesing the multitude of your liuings forgoing your pompe and pryde of men and delicacie of fare vnlawfull iurisdiction which you haue and heereafter looke for conscience religion and establishment of the common wealthe muste be pretended What haue you forgotten that which you sayde in the beginning that you accused none but suspected certayne would you haue the sworde to be drawne vpon your suspicions But now you see that they whom you haue accused are nothing like either Anabaptistes Donatistes or Papistes and your selfe moste vnlike to him that you professe to be and that you see that all your sclaunders are quenched by the innocencie as it were by water of those men whome you so haynousely accuse you are to be put in minde of the lawe of God which decreeth that he which accuseth an other if he proue it not shall suffer the punishment which he should haue done agaynst whome the accusation had bin Other similitudes might haue beseemed you better iustly proued The Romanes did nourishe in Capitolio cerâ—yne dogges and geese which by their barking and gagling should giue warning in the nighte of theeues that entred in but if they cried in the day time when there was no suspicion and when men came in to worship then their legges were broken bicause they cried when there was no cause If therefore he haue accused iustly then is he worthy to haue his diet allowed him of the common charges But if otherwise we desire not that his legges may be broken as theirs were but this we humbly craue that if this our answere do not sufficiently purge vs that we may be sifted and searched nearer that if we nourishe any suche monstrous opinions as are surmised we may haue the rewarde of them if we doe not then at the least we may haue the good abearing agaynst suche sclaunderous tongues seeing that God hathe not onely committed vnto the Magistrate the safetie of our goodes and life but also the preseruation of our honest reporte Io. Whitgifte Conuicta impietas dum non habet quod respondeat conuertit se ad conuitia Vngodlynesse being conuicted when she is destitute of a good answere turneth hir selfe to reprochefull wordes but your heate of wordes and forgetfulnesse of dutie and reuerence I passe ouer with silence The multitude of liuings which I haue I do enioye by law and may retayne I thanke God with a farre better conscience than T. C. did one liuing for the space of certayne yeres and would haue done still with all his heart if he mighte haue bin winked at thoughe it were expresly agaynst his othe My pompe is very small my pride of men is but according to my calling it were more for my profite if I had fewer My delicate fare is very simple I haue witnesses inowe of it peraduenture if you were kept to that diet it would not be with you as it is If my iurisdiction be vnlawfull I am content it be reformed it is according to the statutes of the Colledge where I am to the which T. C. hathe bin sworne and to the lawes of the Realme What I heereafter looke for it is harde for you to iudge But I most humbly thanke my heauenly father that in all this storming of yours wherein you haue blowne out agaynst me what you could possibly imagine you haue only vttered your boyling stomacke and not touched me in any thing whereof I néede to be ashamed which surely you would haue done if you could I whet the sworde no otherwise agaynst you than christian charitie and the state of The sword of discipline necessarily called for the Church requireth It is neither the sworde that
taketh away life nor fire that consumeth the body which I moue vnto but it is the sworde of correction and discipline which may by sundrie other meanes be drawne out than by shedding of bloud That sword of discipline I call for still and say wyth Zuinglius If it be permitted that euery In his Epistle before his booke called Ecclesiastes man may freely defend his errors and spread abrode in the Church false doctrine there wil be more contentions sectes and discorde among Christian Churches than euer there was among Infidels And again If euery man may without controlment preach among the people his own priuate phansie and opinion contrary to the determination and authority of the Church it will shortly come to passe that we shall haue more errors than Christians If I haue accused any man vniustly there is a lawe whervnto I am subiecte but your words are not of that weight neither your defense suche that therefore they please or satisfie wise men bicause you speake them If they can say no more for them selues than you haue sayd for thē then they must remayne still in the same suspicion If there be any iust cause why ye shoulde haue the good abearing agaynst any man if you will come foorthe and orderly require it I am sure you may haue it But oh the mildnesse the patience and the quietnesse of this spirite of yours To the godly Readers grace and peace from God c. TWo treatises ye haue heere ensuing beloued in Christ which ye muste reade without a 1. Thes. 5. 21 Iam. 1. 19. 20 Iam. ▪ 2. 1. parcialitie or blinde affection For otherwyse you shall neither see their meaning nor refrayne your selues from rashly condemning of them without iust cause For certayne men there are of great countenance whiche will not lightly like of them bicause they principally concerne their persons and vniust dealings ▪ whose credite is great and whose friends are many we meane the lordely Lords Archbishops Bishops Suffraganes Deanes Doctors Archdeacons Chauncellours and the rest of that proude generation whose kingdome muste downe holde they neuer so harde b cause their tyrannous Lordship can not stande b Math. 15. 23 Luc. 16. 15. with Christes kingdome And it is the speciall mischiefe of our Englishe Churche and the chiefe cause of backwardnesse and of all breache dissention For they whose authoritie is c Mat 20. 25. 26. Mat. 23. 8. 9 10. Mar. 10. 42. 43. Luc. 22. 15. c. forbidden by Christ wil haue their stroke without their felow seruants yea though vngratiously cruelly and Popelike they take vppon them to d Mat. 24 48 49. beate them and that for their own childish Articles beeing for the most part against the manyfest truthe of God First by experience their rigour hathe too playnely appeared euer since their wicked raigne and specially for the space of these fiue or sixe yeres last past togither Of the enormities whiche with suche rigour they maynteine these treatises do in parte make mention iustly crauing redrèsse thereof But the matters do require a larger discourse Onely the authors of these thoughte it their partes to admonishe you at this time of those inconueniences whiche men seeme not to thinke vpon and whiche without reformation can not but increase further dissention the one parte beeing proude pontificall and tyrannous and the worde of God for the other parte expresse and manifest as if it pleased the state to examine the matters it woulde be euident And woulde to God that free conference in these matters might be had For howsoeuer learned and many they seeme to be they should may in this realme find inowe to match them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne And out of this realme they haue all the best reformed Churches throughout Christendome agaynst them But in a fewe wordes to say what we meane Either muste we haue a right e Math. 9. 37. 38. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ministerie of God and a right f Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. gouernment of his Churche according to the Scriptures set vp both which we lacke or else there can be no right religion nor yet for contempt thereof can g Pro. 29. 18. Amos. 8. 11. 12. c. Ma. 21. 23. c. 1. Cor. 11. 30 Gods plagues be from vs any while differred And therefore though they linke in togither and sclaunderously charge poore men whome they haue made poore with grieuous faults calling them Puritans worse than the Donatists exasperating setting on such as be inauthoritie agaynst them hauing hitherto miserably handled thē with r uilings ▪ depriuations imprisonments banishments suche like extremities yet is these poore mens cause neuer the h Mat. 10. 16. 26. worse nor these chalengers the better nor God his i Esai 59. 1. hand the further of to linke in with his agaynst them nor you christian brethren must neuer the rather without examination k Exo. 23. 1. 2. Mat. 7. 1. 2. Iam 4. 11. 12 condemne them But thankfully take this taste whiche God by these treatises offereth you and weigh them by the worde of God and do your endeu ur euery man in his l 1. Cor. 5. 20 1. Cor. 7. 27 calling to promote his cause And let vs all with more m Psal. 50. 15. Mat. 7. 7. 1. Tim. 2. 1. 2 earnest prayer than we are wont earnestly commende it to God hys blessing and namely that it will please him by his spirite to lighten the heart of our most gracious Soueraigne and the rest in authoritie to the benefite of his small flocke and the ouerthrowe of their proude enimies that godlinesse may by them proceede in peace and God his glory through Iesus Christ be throughly aduaunced Whiche we call God to witnesse is our onely labour and suite And so presently we leaue you hartily beseeching God to graunt it Amen ¶ An answere to the Preface of the Admonition THese two treatises contayned in this Admonition as they be voyde of sound learning so are they full of blinde affection and stuffed with vncharitable and vnchristian Arrogancie and vnchristian speches of the Libellers termes and phrases Wherfore it is to be feared that they proceede not of loue but of hatred not of zeale but of malice not of humilitie but of arrogancie not of minds desirous to reforme but of stomackes seeking to deforme and confounde that which is in due forme and order by lawfull authoritie established For what charitable zealous and humble spirite would so spitefully and slaunderously speake of their brethren whose doctrine is pure whose zeale is feruent whose suffering for the Gospell hath beene in time of triall comparable with any mans that nowe liueth who haue also paynefully taught the worde of God in this Realme and do at this day and by whose ministerie the Gospell hathe taken roote and is come to that encrease that nowe God be thanked appeareth Surely
the sinceritie and simplicitie of his Gospel Not that you should either g 1. Tim. 3. 8. wilfully withstand or vngraciously tread h Math. 7. 6. the same vnder yourfeete for God doth not disclose his wil to any such ende but that you should yet nowe at the length with all your mayne and mighte endeuour that Christe whose i Mat. 11. 3 easie yoke and light burthen we haue of long tyme cast of from vs might rule and reigne in hys Churche by the scepter of his worde onely ¶ Answere to the Admonition Pag. 20. Sect. 1. 2. I Will not answere wordes but matter nor bare affirmations or negations but reasons and therefore in as fewe words as I can I will comprehende many lines But before I enter into their reasons I thinke it not amisse to examine that assertion which is the chiefe and The grounde of the Admonition principall grounde so farre as I can gather of their booke that is that those things only are to be placed in the church which the Lord himselfe in his worde commaundeth As though they shoulde saye nothing is to be tollerated in the Churche of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment except it be expressed in the word of God And therfore the most of their argumēts in this booke be taken ab authoritate negatiuè whiche by the rules of Logike proue nothing at all T. C. Pag. 13. Sect. 2. YOu giue occasion of suspicion that your ende will be scarse good whiche haue made so euill a beginning For wheras you had gathered out of the Admonition that nothing shuld be placed in the Churche but that God hath in his worde commaunded as though the words were not playne mough you will giue them some light by your exposition And what is that you answere that it is as muche as though they would say nothing is to be tollerated in the Church of Christ touching either doctrine order ceremonies discipline or gouernment excepte it be expressed in the word of God Is this to interprete is it all one to say (a) But their quarell is in tollerating not in placing nothing muste be placed in the Church and nothing muste bee tollerated in the Churche he hathe but small iudgemente that can not tell that certayne thinges maye be tollerated and borne with for a tyme. Which if they were to be set in and placed could not be done without the great faulte of them that should place them Agayne are these of like waighte excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God Many thinges are bothe commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the worde whiche are as (b) A Papisticall assertion necessarily to bee followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made Therefore vnlesse your weightes be truer if I coulde let it you shoulde waighe none of my wordes Heerevpon you conclude that their argumentes taken ab authoritate negatiue proue nothing When the question is of the authoritie of a man in deede it neither holdeth (c) Vntrue affirmatiuely nor negatiuely For as it is no good argument to saye it is not true bicause Aristotle or Plato sayde it not so is it not to saye it is true bicause they sayde so The reason whereof is bicause the infirmitie of man can neither attayne to the perfection of any thing whereby he mighte speake all things that are to be spoken of it neither yet bee free from errour in those thinges whiche hee speaketh or giueth oute and therefore this argument neither affirmatiuely nor negatiuely compelleth the heare but onely induceth him to some lyking or mislyking of that for whiche it is broughte and is rather for an Oratour to persuade the simpler sorte than for a disputer to inforce him that is learned But for so muche as the Lorde God determining to set before our eyes a perfecte forme of his Churche is bothe able to doe it and hathe done it a man maye reason bothe wayes necessarily The Lorde hathe commaunded it shoulde be in his Churche therefore it muste And of the other side he hath not commaunded therefore it muste not be And it is not harde to shewe that the Prophetes haue so reasoned negatiuely As when in the person of the Lorde the Prophet saythe whereof I haue not spoken and whiche neuer entred into my heart and as where he condemneth them Ierem. 7. ver 31. 32. Esay 30. V. 2 * bicause they haue not asked counsell at the mouth of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte This my interpretation of their wordes is grounded vpon the whole discourse and drifte of their booke as it may euidently appeare to be true to any that hathe eyes to sée and eares to heare and shewe you if you can any one place in their booke whiche dothe ouerthrowe this my interpretation of their wordes I knowe it is one thing to saye that nothing muste be placed in the Churche and an other thing to saye that nothing muste be tolerated but I sée that they make no difference betwéene them neither in their writing nor yet in their practise And I thinke also that there is some difference betwixte these two manner of spéeches excepte it be commaunded in the worde of God and excepte it be expressed in the worde of God For I knowe sundrie thinges to be expressed in the worde of God whiche are not commaunded as Christ his fasting fortie dayes and his other myracles and therefore by that interpretation I haue giuen vnto them a larger scope than they them selues require whiche if it be an iniurie it is to my selfe and not to them But I thinke you were not well aduised when you sayde that many things are both An vnaduised assertion of T. C. tending to Papistrie commaunded and forbidden of whiche there is no expresse mention in the word of God whiche are as necessarilie to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made If you meane that many things are commaunded or forbidden in the worde which are not expressed in the worde in my opinion you speake contraries For howe can it be commaunded or forbidden in the worde excepte it be also expressed in the same If you meane that many thinges are commaunded or forbidden to bée doone necessarie vnto saluation whiche notwithstanding are not expressed in the worde of God then I sée not howe you differ from that opinion whiche is the grounde of all Papistrie that is that all things necessary vnto saluation are not expressed in the scriptures How soeuer you meane it it can not be true for there is nothing necessarie to eternall life which What is sayd to be expressed in the Scripture is not bothe commaunded and expressed in the Scripture I counte it expressed when it is either in manyfest wordes contayned in Scripture or therof gathered by necessary collection If I had to doe with a Papist I coulde
vnfashioned matter of building of the Churche were vttered in them and those things were lefte out that should pertaine to the forme and fashion of it or as if there were in the Scriptures (*) T. C. accoun th externall gouemm t more precious thaÌ„ the doctrine of faith only to couer hir nakednesse not also chaines and bracelets and rings and other iewels to adorne hir and set hir out or that to conclude there were sufficient to quench hir thirste and kill hir hunger but not to minister vnto hir a more liberall and as it were a móre delicious and daintie dyet These things you seen e to say when you saye that atters necessarie to saluation and of faith are contayned in the Scripture specially when you oppose these things to ceremonies order discipline and gouernment And if you meane by matters of faith and necessarie to saluation those without whiche a man can not be saued then the (*) Note this ssertion doctrine that teacheth there is no free will or prayer for the dead is not within your compasse For I dou t not but diuers of the fathers of the Greeke Church which were great patrons of free will are saued (a) He that dyeth in the opinion of free will holdeth not this foundation holding the foundation of the faith which is Christ. The like might be sayde of a number of other as necessarie doctrines as that wherein men being misseled haue notwithstaÌ„ding bene saued Therfore seing that the point of the question l eth chiefly in this distinction it had bene good that you had spoken (b) Why then aue not you done it speaking so daungerously more certainely and properly of these things Io. Whitgifte When you say That it i no small in urie that I doe vnto the worde of God to pinne it vp in so narrowe roome c. You doe but enlarge the volume of your booke with bare words that myght well be spared I gy e that perfection to the worde of God which the worde it selfe requireth and all godly learned men consent vnto and muche more doe I attribute vnto it than you do in saying that many things are both commaunded and forbyddeÌ„ of the which there is no expresse mentioÌ„ in the word which are as necessary to be followed Pag. 13. Sect. 2. or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which I take to derogate much from the perfection of the Scriptures to be méere Papisticall and quite contrarie to that that you doe pretende I also confesse that in all other things we muste so be directed by the Scriptures that we doe nothing contrarie to the true sense and meaning of them no not in externall and in the leaste matters neyther doe I otherwise write teache or speake of the perfec ion and authoritie of the Scriptures than all other leane men and the reformed Churches teache write and beléeue wherefore I passe ouer your words and come to your reasons If I meane say you by matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation those without the which a man can not be saued c. I can not but muse what you meane willingly to pretende ignorance Is this thinke you a sounde argument Diuers of the fathers of the Greeke Churche which were greate patrons of free will are saued holding the foundation of the fayth which is Christ Ergo The doctrine of free will is not a doctrine of saluation or damnation you myght as well say that many in the popishe Church which beléeued that the Pope was supreme head of the Church that the Masse was a sacrifice for the quicke the dead and such like poynts of pâ—pisticall Religion be saued Ergo these are no matters of saluatioÌ„ or damnatioÌ„ Surely by the same reason al other kinde of sinnes almost The mercie of God infinite might be without this compasse But it may please you to vnderstand that the mercie of God in his sonne Iesus Christ is infinite and that he pardoneth at his good will and pleasure not onely misbeliefe procéeding of ignorance but wilfull erreurs and sinnes also thoughe they be of themselues damnable he also altereth the minde of man euen in a moment and therefore as hys mercyes be infinite so be his iudgementes vnsearchable Wherefore this your reason is vttered without due consideration The doctrine of free wyll bycause it is an enimye to the grace of God must néedes be of it selfe a damnable doctrine yet doth it not preiudice the mercie of God nor finally shut oute repentance the gifte of God And full well doe you knowe that he can not hold y e foundation of faith that is Christ perfectly which is a mayntayner of free will But leauiug the weight of such kind of argumentes to the consideration of the Reader I come to the purpose When I saye that an argument holdeth negatiuely from the authoritie of the Scripture in matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation my meaning is manifest which is this that the Scriptures doe containe all things necessarie to be beléeued and to saluation and therfore whatsoeuer is taught vnto vs as an article of fayth and necessarie to saluation not contained in the scriptures that same to be false and vntrue and therefore to be reiected As for example the doctrine of fre wyll of Purgatorie of praying for the dead of praying to Saint of the sacrifice of the Masse c. are not contayned in the Scriptures and therefore they be not doctrines to be beléeued nor necessarie to saluation but damnable d ctrynes of themselues and repugnant to saluation Surely I thinke in this poynte that you neither vnderstande me nor your selfe my meaning is plaine that nothing is necessarie to saluation which is not plainely contained in the Scriptures Chap. 1. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21. Sect. 4. But that no ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernmente What things the Scripture hath not expressed but left to the ordering of the Church may be in the Churche except the same be expressed in the worde of God is a great absurditie and breedeth many inconueniences T. C. Pag. 14. Sect. 3. But to the ende it may appeare that this speach of yours doth some thing take vp and shrinke the armes of the Scripture which otherwise are so long large I say that the word of God containeth the direction of all things pertaining to the Church yea of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans lyfe For so Salomon saith in the seconde chapter of the Prouerbes My sonne if thou receiue my words and hide my preceptes in the. c. then thou shalt vnderstande iustice and The Scripture wrested by T. C. iudgement and equitie and euery good way S. Paule sayth that whither we eate or drinke or 1. Cor. 10. what soeuer we do we must doe it to the glory of God But no man can glorifie God in any thing but by obedience and there is no
both in the Discourse of the whole booke and especially there where you go about to shew certaine reasons why there shoulde be other gouernment nowe than was in the tyme of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte You sette downe foure rules whiche you woulde haue all orders and ceremonies of The first rule of T. C. concerning ceremonies examined the Church framed by c. The first is 1. Cor. 10. that they offende not any especially the Churche of God whiche rule I thinke you take out of these wordes of that Chapter Tales estote vt nullum praebeatis offendiculum neque Iudaeis c. be suche as you giue no offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Grecians nor to the Churche of God But truly they make 1. Co. 10. ve 32. little or nothing for your purpose neither yet any other thing conteyned in that chapter For the Apostle there sheweth how one priuate man should behaue himself towardes an other yea and towardes the Church in things that may be done or not The orders of the Church depend not vpon euery mans liking or mislyking be done he prescribeth no generall rule for the Churche to make orders and appoynte Ceremonies by For what reason were it that the orders of the Churche shoulde so depende vppon one or two mennes lyking or misselyking that she should be compelled to alter the same so ofte as any shoulde therwith be offended Which must of necessitie come to passe if thys your rule were generall For what Churche is voide of some contentious persons quarellers whō no order no reason no reformatiō Musculus can please It is true that Musculus sayth There bee some whō no churche can please hauing alwayes some thing to reproue in other men and nothing in themselues The Anabaptistes the Libertines the Papistes and other vnquiet myndes and contentious persons are offended with such rites and Ceremonies as the reformed Churches vse neither is there as I suppose any reformed Church voyde of some of these kinde of persons shall they therfore by and by alter the forme and state S. Paule in this place would haue no iuste offence giuen to any either faithfull or infidell For Christians ought to be such at whose examples doctrine and lyfe no man mighte iustely take any offence True it is that in all orders and Ceremonies the Church must take héed that there be no iust offence giuen but she hath not to depend vpon euery priuate mans iudgement Whereas you say especially the Churche of God you adde to the wordes of the Apostle T. C. addeth to the texte to make it serue his turne for he sayth not especially and if you marke his meaning well you shall rather finde that he woulde haue especiall care taken that there be no offence giuen to such as are not yet come to the Churche whiche some vnderstand by the Iewes and Grecians least they shoulde still be withdrawne from the Churche when as there is no suche feare to be had of those that be alreadie membres of the same The seconde rule of T. C. allowed The iudgemēt of comelinesse and order resteth not in euery priuate person The thirde rule examined Your seconde rule 1. Cor 14. is a good and necessarie rule not onely alledged by me b t allowed and imbraced as moste conueniente but who shall iudge what is moste comely and the best order shall euery priuate man or rather such as haue the chiefe care and gouernment of the Churche This is a rule prescribed by the Apostle to the Church wherby she must direct hir orders and gouernment not to euery priuato person to picke a quarell to disquiet the Church The third 1. Cor. 14. that all be doone to edifying This sentence can not be applyed ge nerally to all things vsed in the Churche if we truly interprete the meaning of the Apostle but to the gifte of toungs to prayers and to prophecies whereof he hath made mētion before Neither can I perceiue that any learned Interpreter doth take it as a general rule for al rites and ceremonies but only for the exercises of Praying singing of Psalmes interpreting and Prophecying For of things vsed in the Church some pertaine to instruction and some to order and comelinesse For the firste he giueth thys rule Letal things be done to edifying For both the first and the second he giueth this Omnia decenter c. Let all things be done decently and in order Althoughe those ceremonies and rites whiche are appointed by the Churche for order and comlinesse do edifie In the treatise of appare tract 7. as Ceremonies that is not of themselues but per accidens accidentally as I haue in an other place declared It is sufficient if the Gouernours of the Church and suche as haue authoritie to ordeyne suche rites doe thynke them to be profitable in the respect of the tyme person and place neyther muste euerie priuate mannes iudgement in this case be respected as it is well sette downe by the Articles agréed vpon by the Dutche Churche in London allowed by M. Beza and by diuers other reformed Churches It is the thirde article Quid porrò ad aedificationem faciat c. Moreouer Theses Ecclesia Belgio-germanicae arti 3. what is profytable to edifye and what is not is not to be determined by the iudgemente of the common people nor of some on man nor yet by the issue of mens actions c. I can net vnderstande out of what parte of the. 14. to the Romaines youre laste The last rule pertaineth no more to ceremonies thā to other actions rule is taken except it be the sixt seuen or eyght verses out of the whiche I would gladly knowe howe you can deriue any rule to frame ceremonies by rather than all other actions of man whatsoeuer These be your rules to square by and truly we refuse them not thoughe some of them pertain nothing to your purpose The Dutch Churche and the other Churches in the. 11. of those articles before mentioned touching cōmaunding or forbidding indifferent things determin thus Qui propter aliam rationem c. They whiche for any other cause either cōmand or forbid at their pleasure the free vse of indifferēt things then for one Theses Eccles. Belg. art 11. of these three that is neither for edifying nor for policy nor ecclesiastical order especially those which do rashly iudge other mēs cōsciences in these matters offēd heynonsly against god against their neighbours Wherby they séeme to allow any order takē in indifferent things if it tend either to edifying or policie or ecclesiastical order But to return to your Reply y t which you speak of houre time day of prayer c. iustifie my saying for they be not expressed in the scripture as you also now affirm but left to the ordering not of euery priuate man but of the Churche or such as haue the chief care and gouernment of the
of the passion and resurrection c. you either thrust vpon vs as the decree of the Apostles or at least put vpon vs a necessitie of keeping of them least happily in breaking of them we might breake the Apostles decree for you make it to lye betweene the Councels and the Apostles whiche of them decreed this And do you not perceyue howe you still reason agaynst your selfe For if the Church haue had so great regarde to that whiche the Apostles did in the es that they kepte those things which are not written and therefore are doubtfull whether euer they vsed them or no howe much ore shoulde we holde our selues to these things whiche are written that they did and of the which we are assured As touching the obseruation of these holydayes I will referre the Reader vnto an other place where occasion is giuen agayne to speake of them Io. Whitgifte My meaning therein I haue set downe in my answere It is to let you vnderstande The rule of S. Augustine doth not establishe but ouerthrow p perie S. Augustines iudgement in the matter we haue in hande The rule is true and good and so farre from establishing any péece of Poperie that if rather quite ouerthroweth the same By it we may proue the supremacie whiche the Bishop of Rome claymeth ouer all Churches neither to be written in the worde nor yet to be appoynted by the Apostles nor yet determined by auncient generall Councels for neither hath he bin alwayes nor in all places taken to be the head of the Church And it is manyfest that Phocas the traytor and murderer gaue first vnto him and his Churche that prerogatiue and therfore not lefte vnto him by the Apostles nor giuen him by the generall Councels The like may be sayde of all other thinges vsed in the Churche agaynst the worde of God For it is certayne that they haue not béene generally obserued in all places and at all times and if some of them haue bëene so obserued yet not in that maner and forme that the Churche of Rome dothe nowe obserue them So that you finde fault with this rule before you haue cause Master Zuinglius who woulde haue béene lothe one whit to strengthen the Papistes speaking of the lyke place of S. Augustine in his booke de baptismo sayth thus But leauing those thinges Zuingl de baptis of the rule of Aug. let vs returne to the wordes of Augustine who among other thinges addeth this Quanquà m quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia nec concitijs institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur c. Let these words sayth he preuayle with other mē as they may yet no mā can denie but that there lieth great waight of authoritie in them For if there be nothing in Councels concluded of the baptising of Infants and yet the same was vniuersally of the whole Churche obserued in Angustines time what other thing can be gathered but that it hathe alwayes beene vsed without contradiction Master Caluine also Lib. Insti Cap. 13. Sect. 21. vseth this rule of Augustine to the same purpose where he speaking of Popishe traditions for the whiche they abuse the authoritie of Augustine saythe thus Ego verò non aliundè quam ex ipsius Augustini verbis solutionem afferam Quae toto inquit terrarum orbe seruantur vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel concilijs generalibus quorum est in ecclesia saluberrimā authoritas statuta esse intelligere licet Verily I will fetche a solution from no other place than from the very wordes of Augustine Those thinges sayth he which are obserued throughout the whole world are vnderstode to haue bin instituted either of the Apostles themselues or of generall Councels c. As it is in the answere to the Admonition I knowe no reason why the Apostles maye not be sayde to be the authors of celebrating the day of the Passion c. Neither yet doe I vnder stande anye cause why the Churche maye not still obserue the same sure I am that they were not the authors of the superstitions and errours vsed in them by the Papistes neyther dothe Augustine saye so for this is no good argument to saye the Apostles appoynted these dayes to be celebrated Ergo they appoynted the manner of celebrating vsed by the Papistes The dayes maye be wyth more godlynesse and profite to the Churche obserued béeing clensed from super stition and erroneous doctrine than abrogated Neyther is thys to open a gate to Papisticall traditions but to shutte it close vp as I haue sayde before For let the Papistes if they can name anye wycked thing vsed in their Churche whiche eyther bathe béene generally obserued or wherof I am not able to shewe the first author and inuentor Neyther Aug in this place nor I in any place haue sayde or con it 〈◊〉 thing not cōntayned in the Scripture to bee so necessarie to bee obserued that vpon inst consideration it may not be altered by suche as haue authoritie And 〈◊〉 all that you doe say haue sayd or shall say 〈◊〉 that effecte is forged and vntrue deuised onely by you as a shifte to flye vnto when otherwise you are to seeke for answere To these your wordes they are necessarie to be kept if they be commanded by the Apostles ▪ meaning suche things as Augustine speaketh of I answere with master Caluin who as I tolde you before writing vpon these wordes 1. Cor11 Quemadmodum tradidi vobis c. dothe graunt that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written but he denieth them to be taken aspartes of doctrine o necessarie to saluation saying that they be onely suche as pertayne to order and pollicie The rest of this section of yours is nothing but Petitio Principij For neither doe I moue any such doubt in Augustines words neither is it materiall whether I do or no nether yet is it true that there is any thing commaunded of God or of the Apostles as necessarie to saluation whiche is not contayned in the worde of God neyther are these and suche like traditions partes of doctrine and of saluation as M. Caluin truely sayth but of order and pollicie Who woulde thinke that any man excepte he had hardened his face without A grosse error of T. C. blushing to affirme vntruthes would haue fallen into suche grosse absurdities and vttered suche straunge assertions voyde of all truthe Haue you euer read in Scripture or in the writinges of any learned man or can you by reason proue this Paradox that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation What is to lay an intollerable yoke and burthen vpon the neckes of men if this be not or whereby could you more directly bring vs into the bondage of the lawe from the whiche we are made free than by this assertion for if all the commaundements Gal. 5. of God c. are needefull for
of doctrine by many deliuered is sounde and good yet herein it fayleth that neither the Ministers thereof are accordyng to Gods worde proued elected called or ordained nor the function in such sorte so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought and is of necessitie required Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 34. 35. The proposition that these libellers woulde proue is that we in Englande are so farre from hauyng a Churche rightly reformed accordyng to the prescripte of Gods worde that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For proofe hereof they vse this argnment There be three out warde markes whereby a true Christian Churche is knowen preaching of the worde purely ministryng of the Sacramentes sincerely and ecclesiasticall discipline whiche consisteth in Admonition and correction of faultes seuerely But thys Church of Englande for so in effecte they saye is voyde of all these Ergo it hath not so much as the externall face of a Church To proue that the worde of God is not preached truely they reason on thys sort The Ministers of the worde are not according to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned nor the function in suche sort so narrowly loked vnto as of right it ought is of necessitie required And therfore the word of God not truely preached Here All pointes of doctrine pure in this church thankes be to God they alleage not one article of Faith or poynte of doctrine nor one peece of any substance to be otherwise taughte and allowed of in thys Churche for not euery mannes folly is to be ascribed to the whole Churche than by the prescripte worde of God may be iustified neyther can they Nowe howe this conclusion followeth though the antecedent were true let those iudge that be learned The Ministers are not rightly proued and elected c. An vnapt r son Ergo the worde of God is not truely preached howe wicked so euer the man is howsoeuer he intrude hymselfe into the ministerie yet maye he preache the true worde of God For the truthe of the doctrine dothe not in anye respecte depende vpon the goodnesse or euilnesse of the man I praye you howe were you and some other of your adherentes called elected c But to come to the purpose They woulde proue that the Ministers of the worde in this Church of Englande are not accordyng to gods worde proued elected called or ordeyned What force and pithe is in their argumentes shall appeare in the seuerall answeres to euery one of them This one thing I muste let you vnderstande that these men seeke to deface thys Churche of Englande by the selfe same groundes that the Papistes doe althoughe by another kynde of proofe For what haue the Papistes else to saye but that we haue no Ministers bycause they be not rightly called and so consequently no worde no Sacramentes no discipline no Churche And certainely if it were well examyned I beleeue it woulde fall oute that the Authors of this Booke haue conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe if they coulde the state both of this Churche and Realme howsoeuer subtilly they seeme to detest Papistrie T. C. Page 23. Sect. 1 2 3. (a) Where do I 〈◊〉 that they say so Where in effecte doe they saye that the Churche of Englande is voyde of preachyng ▪ and ministring of the Sacramentes is it all one to saye that the worde in the Churche of Englande is not purely preached and the Sacramentes sincerely and discipline seuerely administred wyth thys that the Churche of Englande is voyde of all these Agayne where doe they reason thus that the worde of GOD is not truely preached bycause the Ministers are not ryghtly proued and elected when as they haue not one worde of true preachyng Is it all one to saye it is not purely preached and to saye it is not truely preached Saynte Paule to the A cauill Philipp is gladde that the Gospell be preached althoughe it be not purely but he woulde neuer haue been gladde that it should haue been preached falsely or not truely Againe he inueygheth not agaynst the false Apostles in the Churche of Corinthe bycause they preached the worde vntruely but bycause they vsyng paynted words and affected eloquence and makyng a great shewe of learnyng and tounges dyd not preache the Gospell sincerely so that you see that it is one thyng not to preache truely and an other thing not to preache purely and so you see their reason is not so euill for the want of a good calling maye gyue occasion to saye that the worde of God is not sincerely taughte bycause there is not a lawfull and ordinarie calling For althoughe for the substaunce of doctrine and the manner of handlyng of it they that Sainte Paule speaketh to of the Philipp dyd not faulte yet Saynt Paule sayth that they dyd not preache purely bycause they dyd it of contention or of enuie whyche was no faulte in the doctrine but in hym that taughte Therefore let men iudge howe iuste your wayghtes are that expounde not purely not truely and whyther thys be to confute other mens argumentes rather than to skirmishe wyth your owne shadowes I knowe no Papistes reason thus that bycause we haue no Ministers therefore no worde no Sacrament no discipline no Churche For they denie that we haue the worde or Sacramentes bycause we holde not their worde and sacrifice but if there be that so reason yet these men that you charge haue neither any such antecedent or such a consequent For they neuer sayde that there is no Ministerie in England nor yet do euer conclude that there is no word no sacraments no discipline nor Churche For in saying that the face of the Churche dothe not so muche appeare for so the whole proces of their booke dothe declare that they meane when they say that we haue not scarce the face of the Churche they graunte that we haue the Churche of God but that for wante of those ornamentes whiche it shoulde haue and throughe certayne the deformed ragges of Poperie whiche it shoulde not haue the Churche dothe not appeare in hir natiue colours and so beautifull as it is meete she shoulde be prepared to so glorious a husbande as is the sonne of God Say you certaynely and do you beleeue that the authors of this booke are conspired with the Papistes to ouerthrowe this Churche and Realme Nowe certaynely I will neuer doe that iniurie vnto them as once to goe about to purge them of so manyfest slaunders nor neuer be broughte by the outrage of your speeches to proue that nooneday is not mydnight and therefore as for you I will set your conscience and you togither The reader I will desire not to thinke it a straunge thing for it is no other than hath happened to the seruaunts of God euen from those which haue professed the same religion whiche they dyd as it appeareth in the. 37. of Ieremie whiche was accused of certayne of the Israelites
Churche of England but by such as haue bene Massemongers and now zealous godly learned preachers T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. 3. But you aske what they saye to M. Luther Bucer Cranmer Latimer Rid ey I praye you when did these excellent personages euer slide from the Gospel vnto Idolatrie which of them did euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so (a) Euen the A monition which I confu e for it speaketh generally and maketh no such distinct blinded you that you can not distinguishe put a difference betwene one that hauing bene noussed from hys youth vp in Idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betwene him which hauing knowledge of the Gospel afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I knowe none that haue bene Preachers of the Gospell and after in the tyme of Queene Mary Massemongers which now are zealous godly and learned preachers if there be any such I thinke for offence sake the Churche mighte better be withoute them than haue them You saye God in that place sheweth howe greeuous a synne Idolatrie is in the Priestes especially And is it not nowe more greeuous in the Minister of the Gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater and if the synne be greater shoulde it haue nowe a lesse punishment than it had then howe shall the faulte be esteemed greate or little but by the greatnesse or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lorde commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And this commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for ours Io. Whitgifte The examples of M. Luther Bucer Cranmer c. do sufficiently confute the Admonitiō The exāples of Luther c. are directly against the Admonition the words wherof be these In those dayes no Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenish priests were appoynted to be preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish Massemongers men for all seasons king Henries priests c. here you sée that they doe not onely condemne suche as once knowing the truth haue afterwards departed from it but suche also as haue at any time sacrificed why shoulde they else name king Henries priests seing it is euident that the masse was not abolished in King Henries time so that I haue better cause to aske what hath so blinded you that you could not vnderstand their meaning the words being so plaine or rather that you would in that point wilfully blind your self others also I know some that being preachers of the Gospell after in the time of Queene Mary massemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers of as good fame and credit with godlie men as any be in this land without offence be it spoken neither be the quiet humble members of the Churche offended with them but reioyce at their conuersion and praise God for them But you frame your doctrine according to your affection towardes certaine persons Doctrine framed according to mens persons as y e maner now a dayes of some is for this doctrine hath béen taught generally that no Idolatrous priest shuld remaine in the ministerie these examples of Luther Bucer c. haue béen lightly reiected as repugnant to the conunaundement of God but now being better aduised remembring that some in that case be great promoters of your opinions this mitigation forsooth must be made that such as were preachers in king Edwards time c. they I meane your fautors were professors though they were no preachers they were also in Quéene Maries time Massemōgers now they be preachers yet all is well for you haue the law in your hands to coyne what opinions you list to adde to them or to take frō them what you list to apply not apply them to whom and when you list euen Popelike The sinne of Idolatrie is nowe as great an offence as it was then but the external ciuill punishment for the same is in the power of the Magistrate being a portion of Tract 2. cap. 6. the. 5. diuision the iudiciall law the necessitie wherof is wholy abrogated as I haue proued before Those precepts in Deut. were giuen to the Iewes both for the iudiciall ceremoniall law also they be giuen to vs for the law of faith good maners only for we are clearely deliuered from the ceremonies of the law the iudicials wherof this in Ezechiel is a portion are not enioyned to Christians vpō any necessitie but left to the discretion of the ciuil Magistrate And therfore I haue said nothing either of those places of Deut. or of this of Ezech. which I wil not by learning good authoritie iustifie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. vlt. God in that place of the prophet Ezechiel sheweth how greeuous a sinne idolatrie is especially in the priests but he prescribeth no generall rule of secluding them from their ministerie if they falling afterward repent T. C. pag. 27. Sect. 4. You worke a sure way which to mainteine your corruptions denie the scripture which speaketh against them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs This is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the end wherwith we may eyther defend our selues against heretikes or be able to strike at them Io. Whitgifte I neither denie the scriptures nor clip them neither can my doctrine open the way to any heresie but I speake of them in this point as all learned and sounde writers doe olde or newe if I do not disproue me not by words but by reasons and authorities Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 1. Besides this there is a great difference betwixte the seueritie of the lawe and the lenitie of the Gospell betwixte the externall regiment of the Churche before Christ and the Church after Christ neither can you make the one in all poyntes correspondent to the other Likewise betwixt the declining of those Priests which was wholly from God to Gentilitie the falling of ours to Papistrie which confesseth the same articles of fayth that we doe although not sincerely It is one thing wholly to worship false Gods an other thing to worship the true God falsly and superstitiously But among all other things I woulde gladly knowe wherein king Edwards priests haue offended you It is happie you let Queene Elizabeths priests alone I maruell whose priests you are T. C. Page 27. Sect. 5. 6. Wheras you say there
I were a Lawyer I could tell you that this law admitteth many exceptions What is more expedient for all men than to haue a good Prince good Councellors good Iudges c. and yet I thinke it were moste pernicious to haue those offices committed to the election of the people But what néede I stryue with you in this matter For if those things that be concluded by Parliament be by the consent of the moste parte of the Realme bicause the peoples consent is there in their knightes of their shires and other Burgeses as in déede it is whiche you also confesse then haue you no more to saye in this matter for the booke of ordering Ministers and Deacons c. is allowed and graunted by Parliament and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Churche of England are chosen by the consent of the people nay which is more of the whole Realme bicause they are ordeyned and chosen according to that order and rule whiche the whole realme in Parliament hath made and bounde them selues vnto But by the way if this grounde of lawe be good in that sense that you alleage it and be transferred to the ciuill state it will be founde very daungerous and tootoo muche sauouring of popularitie as in déede the whole course of your doctrine is Chapter 5. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate Mayre or Bayliffe or Constable of euery towne whiche things if they haue groundes in ciuill affayres they haue muche better in Ecclesiasticall For it is muche more vnreasonable that there shoulde be thrust vpon me a gouernour of whome the euerlasting saluation or damnation bothe of my body and soule dothe depende than him of whome my wealth and commoditie of this lyfe dothe hang. Unlesse those vpon whome he were thrust were fooles or madde men or children without all discretion of ordering themselues whiche as I will shewe can not agree with those that are the Churche of God and are to haue a Pastor For they of the Churche of God althoughe they be called sheepe in respect of their simplicitie and harmlesnesse yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpentes in the wisedome especially whiche is to saluation and howe (a) No man keth vi e a ouÌ„t of the people of God but you partly of 〈◊〉 partly of popular affection would haue it seeme so thereby to 〈◊〉 hatred agaynst vs. vyle accompte soeuer you will make of them they are the people of God and therefore spirituall and foorthwith those of whome sainct 1. Cor. 2. Paule sayth the spirituall man discerneth all things Io. Whitgifte The disorder of suche popular elections hathe bin suche the contentions moued Elections by the multituâ—e are for y e most parte tumultuous in them so great the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious the partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes friendes or landlords c. so vntollerable to be short the lacke of iudgement discretion in many of them so apparant that that maner of electing vpon great coÌ„siderations hath bin altred in diuers places desired to be altered in others also by al those that are wise discrete that wishe for quietnesse good gouernment Neither is it true that the election of those officers which you name is euery where in the people In the best ordered Cities and townes it is otherwise and experience dothe teache that those offices whiche are in the Princes bestowing and some other to whome she committeth the same are the best bestowed and vpon the moste worthyest persons as Bishoprikes the offices of Iudges Iustices c. In ecclesiasticall affayres it is muche méeter that suche as haue knowledge zeale and care for the people shoulde place ouer them a méete and fitte Pastor than that the choyse of him should be committed to the multitude whiche is not onely for the moste parte ignorant but carelesse in suche matters yea and oftentimes euill disposed and commonly led by affection as friendship hatred feare c. I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe bycause they be voyde of reason ChristiaÌ„ men eepe For as Chrysostome saythe Oues sunt sed rationales They are sheepe but suche as are indued with reason And god dothe at one tyme or other if they be his open hys truthe vnto them and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixte true and false doctrine in those things that doe pertayne to their saluation But bicause God dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them are they therfore alwayes voyde of affection and errour or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion is it therefore common to all or to the moste parte In déede if you speake of the inuisible Church which is onely of the electe then is it something that you say but if you speake of the visible Churche whiche is a mixture of good and euill and wherein the euill are the greater number then hath your saying no probabilitie in it And why may not the Pope as well reason of this place 1. Cor. 2. that he can not erre in matters of religion Scripture vn aptly alleaged by T. C. as you may that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their pastors for he dothe alleage this texte for himselfe to the same purpose but the meaning of the Apostle is this that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God and is able to discerne the truthe from falshood You can no more proue therefore by this sentence that the Parishes can not erre in choosing their Pastors than the Pope may doe that himselfe generall Councels and the Churche can not erre and surely the more I consider the matter the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this texts Chapter 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2. Moreouer reason and experience teacheth that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church vnder the hande of the Pastor or Bishop that the Churche loue him and reuerence him For the contempte and hatred of the minister for the moste parte standeth not in his owne person but reacheth euen vnto the doctrine which he teacheth But the Minister that the Churche desireth it commonly best loueth and moste reuerenceth and of the other side hateth and contemneth him that is thrust vpon them therefore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the Gospell that the minister come in by their consent Likewise the people muste by S. Paule hys 1. Tim. 4. rule followe the good example of the Minister but men wyll not likely followe their examples whome they loue not nor loue them which are thrust vpon them agaynst their willes Therefore it standeth with the good conuersation and godly following of the steppes of the minister that he be with the consent of the
Churche Io. Whitgifte This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde for it is certaine that many pastors The seconde reason examined are dearely beloued of their flockes whiche neither were elected by them desired of them nor knowne vnto them before And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed not only with the spirite of discorde but of disdayne and contempt also towards all lawes orders and persons that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations But would you that a Papistical parish suche as there may be diuers in England should choose their Pastor that they might loue him Surely then would they not choose a Protestant Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those whom they haue chosen You know that experience teacheth the contrary so long only do they loue him as he pleaseth them and serueth their affections whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym and the rather bycause they did choose him For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3. And if it should happen which may come to passe that any Church should desire or choose or consente vpon by the moste parte some that is vnmeete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers Elders of the other Churches round about should aduertise first and afterwarde as Where find 〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉 occasion shoulde serue sharpely and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the Churches rounde about do fayle of this duetie or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition then to bring it to the next Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr ministers yet now it must be otherwyse Io. Whitgifte What scripture haue you to proue that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete T. C. in pretending scripture bringeth in that which hath no warrante in scripture minister then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter c. and if they wyll not then to bring it to the nexte Synode if that wyll not serue then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other more conuenient Where haue you I say either commaundement or example of any suche order in the whole scripture will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture Men may sée if they be not blynde what your meaning is You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe it should not be long or you were placed somewhere according to your desyre The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise First you haue forgotten T. C. contrarie to himself yourselfe for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs c. That they were spirituall Pag. 33. Sect. and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choosing their pastor and nowe you say if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vnmeet man c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued contrarie to your former wordes Secondly your order is most vnperfitte full of intollerable inconueniences for The order which T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte full of inconueniences who shall complaine of this election to other Churches And when cōplaint is made who shall call them togither when they be called togither what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion tumult or who shal beare their charges or in what place shal they méete or how often Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie c. who shall bring it to the next Synode or who shall summon the Synode or in what place shal it be kept or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor vntill the matter be determined or who shal complaine to y e Prince and magistrate or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election but allow of the olde Do you not sée of what disorder contentions tumults inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause For how many méetings of Churches should we haue how many Synodes what parts takyng what running vp and downe what losse of time what cause of offence what quarels yea what not But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y e Prince or magistrate The Princes authoritie diminished and hir troubles encreased a good office that he must stand and behold al this and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election which also you say that he must doe Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters giue vnto him no more as I haue before declared than the very Papistes doe that is potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised Agayne considering the great number of Parishes in this realme the varietie of mens myndes the diuersitie of opinions in Religion and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues it can not be but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters Wherefore to conclude if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man to subscribe vnto it But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons The diuersitie betwixte the Apostles tymes and oures requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment and of ordeyning Ministers Chapter 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
bycause the Churche was then vnder Persecution doth both diminishe increase y e number of professors the Crosse therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell for sodde I say bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors doe increase rather than diminishe in the time of persecution yet is it not so with hypocrites and dissemblers who would séeme to professe the Gospell and whom also we must count professors bycause we sée not their hartes This is manifest by this example In the time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie how many was there in London that séemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same but when the time of persecution came vnder Quéens Marie what became of that number howe fewe was there then in comparison doe you not thinke that if God should send a triall there would be founde in that citie many false brethren Moreouer in the time of prosperitie true Christians may without daunger shew themselues and remaine in their cities though the number be neuer so great but in the time of persecution they are dispersed into sundry places We may learne in the. 8. of the Actes that the Churche wholy remayned at Ierusalem vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer and that then they were dispersed shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason of persecution were few in comparison True it is that this dispersing was the cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged yet in the meane time was the number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished Thus then you maye vnderstande if you please that this is a good reason to say the Church was then in persecution and therefore very few incomparison that embraced the Gospell both in the respect of the visible Church generally and also in respect of the same Churche particularly in euery ceuntrey or citie And yet it is true that Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiae The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche but that séede must haue time to grow in and I speake of the externall professors of the Gospell That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the kéeping together and often méeting of such Churches as be persecuted confirmeth my meaning for I saye they kept together in the time of persecution and you affirme the same wherevpon I also conclude that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as Conference in the time of per secution is a cause of better knowing one another theirs is or rather more frequent yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with another or to consider one another or to knowe one another as they haue for they then admitte none into their societie at their méetings but such as are knowen to be brethren and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall And I thinke that those which haue béen exercised eyther in Fraunce or elsewhere in any suche time of persecutiō know this to be true that they know none so throughly or are acquainted with none so intirely as with such who haue béen with them in the time of persecution You would fayne if you coulde confute a knowne truth and a manifest thing for who would denie but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution muste of necessitie be knowne among themselues and beste iudge who is fittest among them for any function Chap. 6. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect. 3. Secondly in the Apostles time all or the most that were Christians The church now full of Hypocrits c. were vertuous and godly and suche as dyd sincerely professe the worde and therfore the election of their pastour might safely be committed to them nowe the Church is ful of Hypocrites dissemblers drunkardes whoremongers c. so that if anye election were committed to them they woulde be sure to take one lyke to themselues T. C. Page 34. Sect. I. To your second difference I answere that in deede there be Hypocrites in our Churches now and so were there then but more nowe than then I graunt you that also but there is no greate daunger in them as touching the election of the minister or Bishop for that in such open and publike actions that come into the eyes of all men there is no good man will doe so sincerely so holily as they will doe although it be fainedly The hurt that they doe is in closer and secreter matters But where you say our Churches are full of drunkards and whoremongers besides that you vtter or euer you be aware how euill successe the preaching of the Gospell hath had here for want of discipline and good Ecclesiasticall gouernmenie you bewraye a greate ignorance For althoughe a A daungerous assertion tending to the doctrine of the Anabaptistes there be Hypocrites which beare the face of godly men in the churche whose wickednesse is onely knowne to God and therefore can not be discouered by men yet in * the churches of Christ there be no drunkardes nor whoremongers at least which are knowne For eyther vpon Admonition of the Churche they repent and so are neyther drunkardes nor whoremongers or else they are cutte off by excommunication if they continue stubberne in their synnes and so are none of the Churche and therefore haue nothing to doe in the election of the Minister of the Churche And me thinketh you shoulde not haue bene ignorant of this that although there be tares in the floure of the Church which are lyke the wheate and therefore being grounde easily meeteth together Mat. 13. in the loafe yet there are no acornes which are bread for swine And although there be goat s amongst the flocke of the Churche bycause they haue some likelyhoode with the sheepe feedyng as Mat. 25. they doe giuing milke as they doe yet in the Churche of Christ there are no swine nor hogges it pertaineth to God onely to seuer the tares from the wheate and the goates from the sheepe but the Churches can discerne betwene wheate and acornes betwene swine and sheepe Io. Whitgifte There be not onely Hypocrites which deale syncerely in nothing no not in publyke actions but there be such also as be corrupt both in Religion and life who woulde no doubte be as corrupt in elections if they might haue to doe therein as they are in other matters In saying that the Church is now ful of Hypocrites drunkards whoremongers Drunkards whoremōgers in the visible churche c. I derogate no more from the good successe that the preaching of the Gospell hath had than the lyke or greater faultes dyd from the same in the Churche of Corinthe and Galatia The Churche is a net that gathereth together of all kinde of fyshe Mat. 13. it is a fielde wherein the deuill soweth tares as fast as the
And it is absurde to say that the Ministers nowe with the helpe of the Magistate can laye surer foundations of the churche or builde more cunningly or substancially than the Apostles could which were the maister builders of the church of God and as for the consūmation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seyng it consisteth in Iesus Christ which is the head that is alwayes ioyned vnseparably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body which is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing both the foundation and the nethermost partes as also the toppe hyghest parte of the churche as well as those which haue a christian Magistrate If in deede the Magistrate whom God haue sanctified to be a ourse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the churche coulde not be established without the Magistrate but we learne that althoughe the godly (a) The Magistrat is head of the common wealth and but a mēber of the Church by T. C. his iudgement Magistrate be the head of the common wealthe and a great ornament vnto the churche yet he is but a member of the same The churche may be established without the Magistrate and so that all the worlde and all the deuils of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie without a godly Magistrate And therefore the churche in that respect and suche lyke prayseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate by the which it enioyeth so singular benefites Therevpon you conclude that the churche was then popular whiche is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kynde of gouernment which the Philosophers that wryte of the beste common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the head it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongst them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the beste menne ▪ and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue theyr interest in Churche matters it is a Democratie or a popular estate An image whereof appeareth also is the pollicie of this realme for as in respecte of the Queene hir Maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respect of the most honourable Councell it is an Aristocratie and hauyng regarde to the Parliament whiche is assembled of all estates it is a Democratie But you shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauing a Christian Magistrate and hauing none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by theyr churche it were not harde if one woulde spende his tyme so vnprofitably to fynde out an hundred differences betweene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace but seeyng you can shewe me no reason why the Churche maye not choose her ministers as well vnder a godlie magistrate as vnder a tyrant I wyll be bold to shewe you howe that if it were lawefull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the tyme of persecution that the election shoulde be in some others discreate and learned persons handes to bee made without the consente of the churche than in that tyme when there is a godlie magistrate and that it is then most conuenient to be chosen by the churche Io. Whitgifte There was then no Churche established in any Ciuill gouernment bycause How the Church was not established in the Apostles time the Magistrates did then persecute and not defende the Churche The Churche in the Apostles tyme was established in doctrine moste perfectly in discipline gouernment and ceremonies as was conuenient for that tyme and as the Church maye be in tyme of persecution but the tyme was not yet come wherof the Prophete Esay 49. sayde Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers therfore it was not established in any ciuill gouernment neyther did it so publikcly and openly shewe it selfe The Gospell and the Church was in Queene Maries tyme here in Englande but it was persecuted not established not maynteyned not allowed of nor professed by the publike magistrate and the lawes of the lande and therefore of necessitie a greate difference betwixte the gouernmente of it then and the gouernmente of it nowe the outwarde shewe of it then and the outward shewe of it nowe the placing of Ministers then and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench ▪ placyng of them nowe My meanyng and my woordes be playne you needed not to haue offended agayne as almoste contynually you doe in the ignorance of the Elench whylest you doo not reason nor answere ad idem If you speake of the Churche as it is a communion and societie of the faithfull and elect onely and of the gouernment thereof as it is onely spirituall then is it moste certaine that the Churche is as thoroughly established as perfectely gouerned as gloriously decked and beautified in the tyme of persecution as it is or can be vnder the ciuill Magistrate But if you speake of the externall societie of the Churche which comprehendeth bothe good and euill and of the outwarde gouernment of it then neyther it is nor can be in suche perfecte state nor so thoroughly established or outwardly adorned in the tyme of the Crosse as it is and may be vnder a Christian Prince The ignorance of thys distinction of the Church and of the gouernment thereof of the whiche I haue spoken more at large in an Tract 2. other place causeth you to fall into so many and so grosse erroures concernyng the same You saye that if the Ciuile Magistrate were the head of the Churche c. Christe The Prince head of the Church onely and properly is the head of the Churche for it is hys body but yet in the respecte of the externall societie of the same and the Supreme authoritie that is gyuen of GOD to the Prince ouer his people in all causes he maye bée also in that respecte called the head of the Churche c. Chrysostom in Epistol ad Philip. Homel 13. gyueth thys name to certaine women Chrysost. of whome he sayeth thus Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat These women seeme to mee to haue bin the head of the Churche which was there And therfore a learned mā answering Hosius who reproued Vergerius for mouing y t king Iaco. Andraea ▪ of Polonia to take vopen hym to be the head of that Churche sayeth on thys sorte As the Churche of Christ in earth is but one bodie so hathe it but one head as the Apostle teacheth which is Iesus Christe who is always present with his Churche and gouerneth it with his holie spirite c. but bicause this Church being visible is not onely ruled by the worde but by the sworde of the magistrate also appointed
Minister to be chosen without the consent of the Churche than in a Church béeing in prosperitie And surely it is euen lyke to your reasons in other matters for first that whiche you saye of the Churches rounde aboute for admonishing correcting or excommunicating that Churche that shall choose an vnméete minister is not to bée founde in all the Scripture either in commaundement or example and it is a méere deuise of your owne head Secondly it is moste vnlyke that the Church in the time of persecution should choose an vnméete or a wicked minister bycause those that be persecuted themselues be godly and well disposed and carefull to haue suche a one as they may safely committe themselues vnto For thoughe in the tyme of persecution there maye bée some hypocrites that will for a tyme ioyne themselues with the Godlie yet the moste parte doe of a conscience that whyche they doe else woulde they not endure persecution wherefore if euer the election of theyr minister may safely be committed vnto them it may then so be especially Lastely in the tyme of persecution they haue no Magistrate they be all equall neyther is one bounde to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hathe chiefe and speciall care ouer the rest as Magistrate to compell wherfore it can not be otherwyse then but that suche offices and functions should be chosen by a common consente neyther can there be therein in that tyme the halfe parte of inconuentences that are in the same in tyme of prosperitie as any man of any consideration may euidently perceyue Chap. 6. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 2. 3. Nowe I will shewe you * Where find you that I thinke so whiche thinke that the consent of the Churche in their minister can not stande with the time of a christian magistrate that it hath not onely stoode but hath bene confirmed in their tymes and by them In codice Iustiniani it is thus written following the doctrine of the holie Apostles (i) The words of this constitution are craftily suppressed c. we ordeyne that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be boyd in any citie that voyces be gyuen of the inhabiters of that citie that he of thrce which for their right faith holynesse of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Bishoprike which is the most meete of them Also Carolus Magnus which was the first Germaine a He was Fran corum non Germanorum primus Imperator for Conradus his nephwe Otho did fyrst trāslate the empire from Fraunce to Germanie ▪ as some thynke Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum saith being not ignorant of the holy Canons that the holy Church in y e name of God should vse hir honoure the freelyer we assent vnto y e ecclesiasticall order that the Byshops be chosen by election of the Cleargie and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus his sonne decreed that he shoulde be Byshop of Rome whome all the people of Rome should consent to choose Io. Whitgifte Where do I say that the consent of the Church in the choise of their minister cannot stande with the time of a Christian magistrate I haue said that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kind of electing ministers was conueniente now in thys state of the Churche it were pernitious and hurtfull whiche to be moste true the differences of the times before by me alleadged do proue The ciuill magistrate may committe this election to such as he liketh best and may vse that maner and kind of choise which he thinketh to be most conuenient for that Church whereof The proofes of T. C. improue his purpose he hath the chiefe care next vnto God And these proofes that you here bring in to iustify your cause in my opinion do quite ouerthrow the same For it appeareth to haue bin in the power of Emperours and ciuill magistrates to appoynte the maner and forme of suche elections why else shoulde they haue néeded to make any lawes or constitutions for that matter It is true that Musculus Lo. com tit de magistra speaking of the ciuill Magistrate sayth Prudenter autem magna c. But he muste wisely and verie Muscul. warilye order the election of ministers seeking nothyng else but that the flock of the Lorde might be prouided for He shall choose not only suche men as are holie but such as are also able to teach He shal flee simonie more than a dog or snake But he shal vse that maner of election which may be most profitable for the Churches And for somuche as hee is not able of himselfe to doe all things which perteine herevnto he shall vse the helpe and aide of faithfull men and of those that feare God vppon whose shoulders he may laye the care or burthen whether they bee within the order of the ministerie of the woorde or of an other profession but notwithstanding in suche sorte that he him selfe doe know them whiche are chosen and if they seeme meete do by his authoritie and power confirme them But to come to your authorities The words that you do alleadge in codice Iustiniani T. C. subtilly concealeth the words of his author that make agaynst hym must somewhere else be sought for I thinke your authoure Illiricus is deceyued in quoting that place for surely I cannot vnderstand that they are to be founde in that booke But from what authoure soeuer they come you haue subtillie left out the words that expound his meaning and make directly against you Wherefore I will recite them worde for word as they are reported in Illiricus the authoure out of whome you haue borowed them Sequentes igitur doctrinam c. Folowing the doctrine of the holy Apostles in that that most pure and vncorrupt Priests ought to be chosen which are appoynted for that cause chiefly that by their prayers they might obtayne the fauoure of the most mercifull God towardes common wealthes we do decree by this present constitution that as often as it shall happen the roome of any priest to be voyde the inhabitants of the same citie shall giue their voyces of three which in true faith holynesse of life and in all other good things are approued and allowed of that of these he whiche shall be moste meete might be chosen Byshop The Emperoure saith that he followeth the doctrine of the Apostles in this that they prescribe what maner of men are to be chosen sci integerrimi incorruptissimi most pure and most vncorrupt not in the maner or kinde of electing as you would séeme to make the Reader beléeue in noting these words only folowing y e doctrine of the holy Apostles and leauing out that which foloweth declareth wherein he meant to folow their doctrine namely de eo quòd debeant eligi integerrimi in
with false worshippings but they remained as yet in the doctrine Religion which they had receiued of the Apostles wherfore it might well be that a true minister might be chosen by their cōmon suffrages But after that the number of Christiās was encreased to an infinite multitude first schismes then generall ignorance blindnesse sundry kinds of superstitiō inuaded the Church c. there could no longer any true sincere minister be elected by the generall consent of the people c. wherefore for the conditiō of the time necessitie it self required that Princes Magistrates should commit this matter to certaine wise mē carefull for the Church by whose meanes meete pastors might be placed c. then he addeth that for the circumstāces of time as in all Churches the Apostolicall forme of electing ordeining cannot be restored ▪ so is there no cause why the minister of Christ being called to preach the Gospell by a godly Prince Magistrate shuld doubt of his calling whether it be right Christian or no. But he must remēber that where the state of the Church of Religiō is corrupt another way must be found out to remedie the same than that which was vsed in the Churches when all things was safe and sound In the end he declareth what maner of electing ordeining Ministers is vsed in y e church of Berne Neyther doth he in that place or any other that I knowe goe aboute to defende the election vsed in the Church where he was Minister by this that it approched vnto the election of the Primitiue Church as you report him to do Thus haue I truely reported Musculus his wordes in that place and his order than the whiche what can be more directly spoken to my purpose whiche is to proue that no one certaine maner and forme of electing Ministers is anywhere appointed to be generall and perpetuall but that the same may be altered accordyng to place tyme and persons and that the manner vsed in the Apostles time is not méete and conuenient for this time All this I saye Musculus hath plainely and by good reasons héere proued whyche he doth also as manifestly confirme in the title de Magistratibus For after that he hath declared that it perteineth to the Magistrate to appoint Church Ministers he sayth dices at secùs factum est in primis ecclesijs in quibus à ministris plebe eligebantur ecclesiarum antistites respondeo talis tum ecclesiarum erat status c. as it is in my answere For the subiection and bondage of the Church which you so often talke of this is my answere in few words that subiection to lawful Magistrates in matters lawful is no bondage to any but to such as thinke dutifull obedience to be seruitude bondage as the Anabaptistes do Why the people are debarred from electing which you call the Apostolicall forme of the choise of the Pastor you may learne by that which hath béen hetherto spoken if you be so desirous to learne as you would séeme to be That the minister may be well assured of the lawfulnesse of his calling though The minister may be assured of hys calling though he be not chosen by the people he be not called of the people you haue also hearde of Musculus who of purpose answereth that doubte He that is sure of an inwarde calling néede not to doubt of hys outward calling if it be according to the manner and forme of that Church wherein he is called That the people doe as willingly now submit them selues to their Pastors and gouernours though they haue no interest in electing of them as they did then experience teacheth in all places where there be good and vertuous pastors except onely in such as you and yours haue set on fire with contention and contempte You saye to assigne the cause hereof to the Christian Magistrate c. We giue vnto the Magistrate that which of duetie belongeth vnto him in the respecte that he is a Christian Magistrate and hath the chiefe gouernment of the Church in all causes ouer all persons and you desirous of popularitie withdraw from the Magistrate that which is due vnto him giuing the same to the people and vulgar sort You counte it an abridging of the libertie of the Church a diminishing of the pastors assurance of his calling a withdrawing of the people from the pastor to be shorte a brynging of the people into bondage for the Magistrate to mainteine his right in vsing that kinde of appointing Ministers which he thinketh to be most profitable for the Churche committed vnto him and is not this to doe great iniurie to the office of the Magistrate Why doe you not plainely say that the Quéenes Maiestie abridgeth the libertie of the Church diminisheth the pastors assurance of his calling withdraweth the people from their pastor vrgeth and constraineth them to that which is voluntarie bringeth them into bondage bicause she will not suffer them to haue fredome in the elections of their Bishops and Pastors for this is your plaine meaning But temper your popular and vndutifull speaches the true The true libertie of the Church libertie of the Church which is libertie of conscience and fredome from false doctrine errors and superstitions and not licence for euery man to doe what himselfe liweth was neuer more in any Church pastors neuer had better cause to be assured of their calling the people at no time more bound to cleaue to their pastors neuer lesse cause to complaine of vrging constraint seruitude or bondage than they haue at this daye vnder hir Maiestie but you go about to perswade them to the contrary which where vnto it tendeth would be in time considered Musculus saythe that this manner of ordering Ministers for he doth not call it T. C. transfei reth y t corruptions of mens myndes to the gouernment forced elections is a remedie against corrupted states not in respect of laws gouernment Magistrate or Religion by authoritie established but of menues myndes that are corrupted with errors contentions and sinister affections and this is no dishonor to the ciuill gouernor For if in a kingdome there be many wayward and disordered persons the fault is in themselues and not in the Magistrate nor in the kind of gouernment but a great commendation rather when as by the diligence of the Magistrate and profitable kinde of gouernment such disordered persons be corrected and reformed or at the least kept vnder and restrained Is it a dishonor to the Prince that where as she founde the whole Realme corrupted in doctrine now it is otherwyse though not in the heartes of many yet in externall forme and publike regiment Wherefore you do but subtilly I will not saye contemptuously transfer that to the Magistrate and kynd of gouernment which Musculus meaneth of the corrupt mindes and affections of the common sort of men You adde that when it is sayd that the
substance or being of baptisme whether Pa. 114. Sect. 1. he be minister or no that ministreth that sacrament Pag. 114. And this is that mysterie which you and your fellowes will not as yet openly vtter but craftily dissemble vntill you sée better oportunitie The truth is your intent is rebaptization and flat Anabaytisme But I haue declared sufficiently the vanitie of your collection in thys place and the weakenesse of your reasons touching this matter where you haue gyuen me more especiall occasion to speake of it Tract 9. Chap. 7. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 2. 3. Seing then that the scripture doth teach this order that there should be no minister thrust vppon the Churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that ways and the vse of the Church hath bin so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution both vnder tyrants and godly princes it cannot be without the high displeasure of almightie God the greate hurt and sore oppression of the church that one man should take this vnto him which perteyneth to so many or one minister which perteyneth to more than one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man wil rise vp and say that this doctrine bringeth in disorder and by this meanes children boys and women should haue their voyces which is vnseemely all men vnderstande that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to do whiche are heads of families and that this is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered and requireth rather a Censor than a disputer to suppresse it Io. Whitgifte The scripture doth not teach any such order it hathe examples to the contrary it presribeth herein no certayne rule to be perpetuall there is better reason to the contrary if the diuersitie of the time and other circumstances be considered the Church also hath not at all times nor in all places vsed one forme and manner of election not in the Apostles time as it hath bin declared wherefore the Church is neyther hurte nor oppressed if the godly Magistrate alone do appoynt in it Byshops and take such order for admitting other inferioure Pastors as shall be thought to him most conueniente Neyther is God displeased with them for so doing if they séeke his glory therein the godly peace and quietnesse of the Church and haue respect to the end of the Apostles in appointing ministers But he is greatly displeased with those that make a necessitie where none is and trouble the Churches with their owne deuises and make contention for externall matters ¶ It is not necessarie that the people should haue interest in the election of ministers but the contrarie is conuenient Chap. 8. the. 1. Diuision Io. Whitgifte NOwe that you haue vttered all your authorities and reasons to proue that the people ought to haue interest in the electing of their ministers that I haue sufficiently I truste answered the same Lette it not be troublesome vnto you if summarily I collect my reasons that moue me to thinke the contrarie 1. And fyrst I will proue that there is no certaine forme of electing prescribed in Scripture but that the same is left frée for the Churches to appointe as shall bée thought most conuenient for their states and tymes 2. Secondly I will shewe that there hath bene greate diuersitie from tyme to tyme vsed in the Churche touching elections and that the people at all tymes and in all places haue not bene admitted thervnto 3. Last of all I will sette downe the reasons why the people haue bene debarred from such elections and why they ought still so to bée Touching the fyrst these be my reasons 1. Chryst whose factes and déedes we ought especially to followe did of himselfe Math. 10. Luke 10. alone without the consent of any call and choose his Apostles and lykewise the 70. disciples whome he sent to preache 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this maner and forme for they presented two and the one of them was chosen by lotte 3. In the. 6. of the Actes they cleane altered this also for the people presented seuen to the Apostles and they were all chosen withoute lottes the Apostles also layde on their handes vpon them 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this forme is lykewise changed for Paule and Bar abas ordeyned ministers in euery citie without eyther presentment by the people or casting of lottes 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manyfest that Paule and Barnabas were sent onely by the Prophetes and Doctours without any consent of the people eyther giuen or required reade the beginning of the Chapter it is playne inough of it selfe 6. Paule sent Timothie and Titus and gaue them authoritie to ordeyne other 1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1. So that it is certayne that here is no prescripte maner and forme appoynted to be obserued for euer séeing that the Apostles themselues did not bynd or tie themselues to anye suche rule which both M. Bullinger Zuinglius and Beza doe lykewyse confesse as I haue before declared And therefore M. Caluine as I tolde you before sayth that of that example in the first of the Acts no certayne rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers And M. Beza is of the same iudgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I haue lykewise declared before And in that booke of confession and. 5. Chapter he hathe this saying worthie to be noted Bycause the multitude is for the most parte ignorant and intractable and the Beza lib. con cap. 5. greater parte doth oftentymes preuayle agaynst the better not in a popular state lawfully appoynted are all things committed to the vnbridled multitude but certain Magistrates are appoynted by the consent of the people to rule and gouerne them if this wysedome be in worldely affaires muche more is a moderation to be had in those matters wherein men be oftentymes blynded Neyther is there any cause why any man of sounde iudgement should exclame that in such matters there is no place for pollicie except he can shew this policie wherof I speake to be repugnant to the word of God whiche I thinke he can not Hitherto M. Beza and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers And a little after he sayth that wee must not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in Ecclesiasticall pollicie Idem or in the gouernment of the Churche seeing there is so great diuersitie of circumstances that a man can not without preposterous zeale reduce all things in all places and tymes to one and the same forme but it is sufficient if respect be had to their ende and purpose whiche is not variable and that maner and forme vsed whiche leadeth therevnto c. Wherupon also I conclude that in the Scriptures there is no
the ministerie are to be admitted and ordeined I knowe not howe you could answere it for the wordes of the Canon admit that sense most properly That decrée of Vrban hath the same meaning and that which followeth of remayning continually in that Church in the which he is intituled doth but signifie that he must be assured of his lyuing whervnto he is intituled during his life for the same Canon doth permit one man to haue two Churches but yet that he ought not to be canonicus prebendarius but onely of one Church wherof he is intituled But I can not but marueile that you will vse the testimonie of this Councell of Pope Vrban which was holden at the least an 1090. after Christ euen in the most corrupte time when as Antichrist had fully possessed the sea of Rome in the which Councell among other things (a) Volater ▪ Bale he confirmed the actes of Pope Hildebrand against Henrie the Emperour This Vrban also was the confirmer of the superstitious orders of the (b) Platina in vita Vrb. 2. Cistercian friers and (c) Volateran Cent. II. ca. 10. Carthusian Monkes he likewise deposed (d) Distinct. 32 eos qui. Deacons that were maried from their orders And (e) Matth. p risi in vita VVilli 2. forbad by the Councell of the traiterous Archbishop Anselme that any Clearke should receiue beneficiorum inuestituram or any Ecclesiasticall dignitie of any Prince or lay man but (f) Cent. 4. onely of the Pope And that you may yet further vnderstand what a worthie patrone you haue gotten for your cause this Vrban was he that was author (g) P lid de inuent lib. 6. cap. 2. of the Canonicall houres commonly called our Ladies Psalter Certainly Hierome sayth no suche thing in that Epistle you are disposed to father that of him that he neuer spake ▪ His complaint was that much cost was bestowed vpon Churches in adorning and decking of them and little regarde to the choise of Ministers meaning that they had more care to haue gorgious Churches than good Ministers But what is this to your purpose Thus haue you proued neither by Scripture nor by Councell nor Doctor truely alleaged and vnderstanded that none maye preache vnlesse he haue some pastorall charge and I still affirme that you haue not one texte of Scripture soundyng that way where there are to the contrarie sundry examples as I haue alleaged Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 2. If you had vsed moe reasons I would haue answered them what certaine cure had Paule Barnabas Philip Epaphroditus Andronicus Iunius yet they were not of the twelue Apostles It is a straunge doctrine to teache that a man may not preache out of his owne cure It is more straunge to say that it is not lawfull for him to preache except he haue some pastorall cure beyng of him selfe able to liue and not minding to be burdensome to the Churche If you seeke for any text in the scripture to confirme this doctrine you can finde none if you seke for examples to the contrarie you shall finde plentie T. C. Pag. 44. Sect. 2. 3. 4. But you aske what place Paule and Barnabas had appoynted them What meane you therby to conclude that bycause Paule and Barnabas the Apostles had no place appoynted them therfore a Pastor or Bishop shoulde not when this is one difference betwene the Apostle and Byshop that the one hath no certaine place appoynted and the other hath But I thinke I smell out your meaning which is that we may make Apostles also at these dayes and that that function is not yet ceased for otherwise your reason is nothyng worthe Likewyse also you aske of Philip which was an Euangelist And so you thinke that these running Ministers are lawfull bycause they are Apostles and Euangelistes against which I shall haue occasion to speake shortly after in the. 50. Page But if a manne be able to liue of hym selfe and mynde not to be burdensome to the Churche it seemeth vnreasonable vnto you that he may not goe aboute and preache throughout all Churches Dyd you neuer reade any learned disputation and that of learned writers in our dayes aboute P. Marty vpon the 1. Cor. 9. thinketh it more expedient for one to take vvages of the Church although he be able to liue of him selfe this question whether although it be lawfull it be expedient that a man beyng able and willing to liue of him selfe ought to take wages of the Churche for inconueniences which mighte ensue of taking nothing I doe but aske you the question bycause you make so greate a wonder at thys for I will not take vpon me heere the defense of it bycause I will not multiple questions And why I praye you maye not that manne that is so able and will be content to liue of him selfe why I saye may not he teache and be the Pastor of some Churche Doe you thinke that for hys forbearing the wages of the Churche he may breake the (a) What lawes orders where are they establi shed lawes orders that God hath established Io. Whitgifte It is a good reason to proue that there may be preachers of the worde which haue no certaine cure and doth cleane ouerthrowe your former answere to the place Acto 1. for Paule and Barnabas were not chosen into any vacant place as Matthias was and therfore that reason is no reason I doe not say a Bishop or Pastor should not haue a place appointed vnto them for I know Bishops and Pastors haue their cures limited but this I saye that some may be preachers and Ministers of the worde which haue no certaine cure Neyther is this true that all suche as be admitted to the preaching of the word be either Bishops or Pastors Against Apostles and Euangelistes we shall vnderstande what you haue to saye when we come to that place You aske me whether I euer read any learned disputations c. I mighte aske you the same question for you vtter no great reading here only you alleage Peter Martyr vpon 1. Cor. 9. where he speaketh little of this matter For the question is not whether a man hauing a Pastorall cure and sufficient of his owne to lyue may cease to take th ordinarie stipend of his Church or no which is that that Peter Martyr handleth in that place and wherof he maketh this resolution that he should doe that therein that maye most profitte the Church and further the Gospell and yet to be most expedient to take the accustomed stipend although S. Ambrose Lib. 1. off cap. 36. and diuerse other be of the contrarie iudgement But this is our controuersie whether a man hauing sufficient to lyue of by him selfe may not be admitted to the preaching of the Gospell excepte he haue some Pastorall cure S. Paule in that Chapter gloryeth that he tooke nothing of the Corinthians Peter Martyr in the same place
Scripture I know not to what purpose you quote the. 7. to the Hebrues except it be for this Hebr. 7. texte The lesse is blessed of the greater in whiche place blessing is not taken for ordeyning or consecrating for Melchisedech did no suche thyng to Abraham But it is there taken as it is Numer 6. where the Priestes are commaunded to blesse the Numer 6. people and therefore serueth not your turne for any thing here spoken I vnderstand not to what ende you quote Eusebius in his third booke and. 27. Chapter Uaine quotation For there is not in that place one woorde spoken of an Euangelist or any part of his office Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 5. Agayne if there be in euery Church a Pastor as S. Paule cōmaundeth what should the Euangelists do for either that pastor doth his dutie and then the Euangelist is superfluous or if he do it not then he is no lawfull pastor and so ought he to be put out and an other to be put in his steade And where the pastor doing his dutie can not suffice there the Scripture hath giuen him an ayde of the Doctour which for bicause his office consisteth in teaching doctrine to this end that the Pastor myght not be driuen to spende so much tyme in propounding the doctrine but myghte haue the more tyme to employ in exhorting and dehorting and applying of the doctrine to the tymes and places and persons it is manyfest that he also is tyed to a certaine Church For how coulde he be an ayde vnto the pastor to whose helpe he is giuen vnlesse he were in the same church where the pastor is And that the Euangelistes office hath bene to taken as a function that endured Lib. 5. cap. 10. but for a tyme it may appeare first by that which Eusebius writeth speaking of Pantenus for sayth he there were vntill that tyme Euangelistes c. which was aboute the yeare of our Lord. 162. Wherby he giueth to vnderstand that aboute that tyme they ceased and that in his tyme there was none when notwithstanding there were Bishops or Pastors and Elders Li. 1. offic 1. and Deacons And Ambrose sayth that there be no Apostles but those whiche Christe himselfe did appoynt wherby it appeareth that of all the Ecclesiasticall functions that preach the woorde there are but the Pastor and Doctor only lefte vnto vs and the same also restrayned to particular charges Io. Whitgifte But what if there be not in euery Church suche a Pastor neyther can be is the Euangelist then necessarie you must of necessitie confesse that for the people muste not be depriued of the worde when by suche meanes they may haue it Howebeit though euery Churche had his Pastour and euerye pastour dyd his duetie yet might preaching by other doe good as well for the confirmation of the Doctrine and the more frequent preaching as also for that it pleaseth God sometymes to woorke that by one that he dothe not by an other But what Scripture haue you to proue that the Doctor is added to the Pastour as an ayde or that the Doctor is tyed to a certaine place you haue no licence to coyne newe Scriptures and in the olde I am sure you can not fynde it As for youre bare woorde it is but a verye bare proofe I tolde you before that Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Musculus and dyuerse other vppon good reason confounde Pastour and Doctor and thynke them to bée but diuerse names of one office And whereas you saye that the Doctours office consisteth in teaching doctrine to this ende that the Pastour myghte not be dryuen to spende so muche tyme in propoundyng the doctrine c. I woulde gladly knowe whence you learne that Ambrose sayeth they be suche as see good rule kepte in the Churche or suche as Ambrose in 4. Eph. teache children Eusebius woordes speaking of Pantenus be these There were as yet at that tyme manie Euangelistes whyche were prest and readie to this that they myght wyth a godlie zeale accordyng to the Apostles example promote and plante the woorde of God Whyche proue that there were then Euangelistes good store whyche were zealous c. But there is no mention made of any ceassing of their office it rather proueth a continuance of the same béeing so long after the Apostles tyme. There is nowe no suche Euangelistes as goe from kyngdome to kyngdome or thoroughe the Lib. 5. cap. 9. worlde bycause the miraculous gifte of tongues is nowe ceased Neyther is anye nowe lawfully called to any suche Ecclesiasticall function but by man and therfore they must goe no further than his authoritie extendeth that hath called them Ambrose sayeth truly if he should say that there are no Apostles but such as Christ himselfe appointed if we speake proprely and vsually as I haue before declared but that is no hinderance to any thing y t I haue affirmed And yet surely y e words of Ambrose sound nothing that way for Ambrose abasing and disabling himselfe saith thus Non igitur mihi apostolorum gloriam vendico quis enim boc nisi quos ipse filius elegit dei c. I therefore challenge not to my selfe the glory of the Apostles for who can do this but they whome the sonne of God did choose And what can you hereof conclude He saith afterwards also that i e doth not chalenge to himselfe the circumspection of Pastors yet was he then a Byshop as it is in that place euident Gladly would you haue some authoritie for your purpose if you could tell where to find it Of the residence of the Pastor Tract 5. Chap. 1. the first Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 6. Now that I haue proued that there are no Euangelists Prophets or Apostles and that the ministeries of the word which remayne are limited vnto certayne places I will take that whiche you graunt that is that the Pastor or Byshop ought to haue a speciall flocke And demand of you wherefore he should haue it Is it not to attend vpon it And can he attend vpon it vnlesse he be resident and abiding vpon it But he cannot be abiding vpon it if he go from place to place to preach where he thinketh necessarie Therefore being Pastor or Byshop of a congregation allotted vnto A digression from the matter to the person him he may not go from place to place to preach where he thinketh good much lesse to haue a mastership of a colledge in one corner of the land a Deanry in another and a Prebend in the thirde and so be absent from his pastorall charge in such places where eyther he preacheth not or needeth not to preach those places being otherwise furnished without him For then how is this difference kept betweene the Pastor and other ministers that the one is tyed to a place and the other is not For if you say that it is in that he shall preach more at his
of Papistrie as your manner is and for my part I thinke it to be the part of all dutifull subi cts to kéepe lawes and orders appoynted and to sée other kéepe them also if they be therevnto called Surely he that is a Papist indéede cannot wish well to hir 〈◊〉 but if he communicate with vs in the sacraments heare the word preached and come to our Churches I will thinke and hope the best of him But if he refuse so to do as there be di ers such so long as he so continueth I must count him an enemie to religion to the Churche and to the Prince be he Papist Anabaptist or whatsoeuer For he that in hart and in déede misliketh the religiō cannot like wel of such as mainteine the same Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 53. Sect. 1. There are also numbers of those which haue all Antichristianitie in such detestation that they cannot abide the least scrappe of it and when they see the ministers weare them they are greeued in their harts and they beginne somewhat to feare least this communicating with the Papists in apparell should make some way to those which vse them the easier to admitte other things when they should be likewise commaunded And these brethrens minds are not to be lightly greeued and the ministers if they thinke to profite them must cut away all occasion whereby they may haue an euill opinion of them Io. Whitgifte M. Caluine in his booke against the Anabaptists after he had spoken some thing against The puritie which can abide no imper fection is diuelish the Puritanes and Donatists hath this saying worthy to be noted Here therfore we may be admonished that when as vnder the pretence of the study of perfection we can tolerate no imperfection eyther in the body or in the members of the Church that then the Deuill dothe make vs swell with pride and dothe seduce vs by hypocrisie that he might prouoke vs to forsake the flocke of Christ knowing assuredly that he dothe obteyne the victory when he draweth vs from the same For seeinge yther remission of sinnes or health is in no other place although we outwardly beare the countenance of an Angelicall ☞ conuersation yet if we do with such boldnesse separate ourselues from the Christian felowship we are become Deuils If thys be to be feared in such as shew thys prepostorous zeale agaynste that whiche is blameworthy what shall we thinke of those that vnder the pretence of zeale deface the minister and the word that he preacheth for doing that which is lawfull and the whiche of duetie he ought to do If the minister shoulde applie himselfe to please the people and suche especially of whome you séeme to speake in this place his greatest study had néede to be how to transforme himselfe dayly into a new shape But most certaine it is that you study to much to please the people And that is the occasion of so many nouelties whereby they are most commonly delighted est natura hominis nouitatis auida Chap. 1. the eight Diuision T. C. Page 53. Sect. 2. Seing that therefore this kind of Ceremonies in apparell harden the harts of the Papistes and cause them to be the stiffer in thir poperie hinder the weake from profyting in the knowledge of the Gospell greeue the minds of the godly are occasion of an euill opinion vnto them of their ministers we thinke that these ceremonies are to be remoued as not only not profitable which they ought to be but hurtfull if not to the ministers themselues that vse them yet to their people to whome they are commaunded by God to haue regard vnto in these thinges that are indifferent in their owne natures Now I will come to that which you set downe Io. Whitgifte Seing that not one word of that is true and if it were yet the erroure and false perswasion of the minde rather to be refourmed than relented vnto I sée no cause why thys kind of apparell being commaunded ought not to be vsed except you will leaue to euery man libertie to do what him list or suffer the fansies of some to rule Prince Councell Byshops Church and all That ministers were knowne in times past by distinct apparell ▪ Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The eleuenth In those days knowne a 1. Samuel 9 18. Mat. 26. 48 Mat. 26. 7 by voyce learning and doctrine now they must be discerned from other by popish and antichristian apparell as cappe gowne tippet c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 53. Sect. vlt. Pag. 54. Sect. 1. 2. To proue that in those days ministers were knowne by voice learning Uayne and childish all gations and doctrine you cite the ninth of the first of Samuell and the 26. of Mathew In all that ninth Chapter of Samuell there is not one word that maketh for this purpose except you meane this that when Saule asked of Samuell where the Seers house was Samuell answered againe that he was the Seer If this be to be knowen by voice learning and doctrine the ignorantest minister that is may soone be knowne by his voyce learning and doctrine for if you aske him where is such a man he can answer you I am he In the. 26. of Mathew the first place vers 48. is this Novv he that betraied him had giuen them a token saying vvhosoeuer I shall kisse that is he lay holde on him The multitude that came with Iudas knew christ by Iudas kissing of him therfore in those days ministers were knowen by voice learning and doctrine The second place in that Chapter alleadged vers 73. is this They that stoode by said vnto Peter surely thou art also one of them for euen thy speach bevvrayeth thee Peter was suspected by his speach to be a Galilean and therefore one of Christes Apostles Ergo a minister was then knowen by voice learning An argument retorted vpon the aduersary and doctrine You may aswell of that place gather thus Peter preached not Christ thē but denied him Ergo a minister must be knowen by denying of christ Lord God what dare not these mē alledge for their purpose I know that the chiefe tokens whereby a minister ought to be knowen is doctrine and learning but you childishly abuse the scripture and play with the same Now you say ministers must be discerned from other by Popish A minister may be knowen by his apparell and Antichristian apparell as cappe gowne tippet c. Do you thinke that bycause a minister oughte to be knowen by his voyce learning and doctrine therefore he may not be also knowen by hys apparell Iohn the Baptist had peculiar apparell and was knowen by it Christ had distinct apparell from other for his coate had neuer a seame T. C. Pag. 53. Sect. 3. 4. The places alledged by the Admonitiō with others which may be cited howsoeuer you deride them are otwithstanding probable coniēctures (*) They were quoted
is one of the principall causes of edifying contrariwise such as refuse the same apparel not only dissent disagree among themselues but fal into diuers strange opiniōs without stay slander the gospel with their contentiousnesse and teare in peeces the Church of Christ with their factions and schismes and be the cause why both the worde of God and Christian magistrates be almost generally contemned T. C. Pag. 58. Sect. 2. The thirde reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poyntes of doctrine and they that doe not weare it do not consent not so muche as amongst themselues I this consent in the points of religion be in the surplice cope c. tell vs I beseech you whether in the matter or in the forme or in what h dde and vnknowne qualitie standeth it If it be n that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruel that this being so strong a bonde to holde them together in godlie vnitie that it was neuer commaunded of Christe nor practised of Prophets or Apostles ether of no other re ormed Churches I had thought wholly that those things whiche the Lorde oppoynteth to mayntayne and keepe vnitie with and specially the holie Sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Lordes Supper had bene strong ynough to haue fyrste of all knitte vs vnto the Lorde and therefore also to his doctrine and then one of vs to an other and that the dissentings in suche a Ceremonie as a Surplice c. neyther should nor could in those that 〈◊〉 vnto God breake the vnitie of the Spirite which is bounde with the bonde of truthe And although there bee whyche lyke not this apparell that thinke otherwyse than eyther theyr brethren or than in deede they oughte to doe yet a man may fynde greater dissent amongest those whiche are vnyted in Surplice and Cope c. than there is amongest those whyche weare them not eyther wyth them selues or with them that weare them For howe many there are that weare Surplices whiche woulde bee 〈◊〉 to saye a Masse than to heare a Sermon lette all the worlde iudge And of those that 〈◊〉 weare this apparell and be otherwyse well mynded to the Gospell are there not whiche wyl weare the Surplice and not the cappe other that will weare bothe cap end surplice but not the tippet and yet a thirde sorte that will weare surplice cappe and tippet but not the cop It hathe bene the manner alwayes of wyse and learned men to esteeme of things by the causes an not by the euent and that especially in matters of religion for if they should be esteemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battel agaynst Aye and 〈◊〉 agaynst the Bemamites which notwithstandyng the cause which was Gods wil and Gods maundement iustifyeth And therfore in a word I answer that if there be such con ent mongst those which like well of this apparel and such arres amongst those y t like it not as M. 〈◊〉 woulde make the worlde beleeue neyther is the w aryng of a surplice c. cause of that consent in thē nor the not wearing cause of that disagrement in the other But as our knowledge and loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agreement and consent of iudgement vnperfect And yet all these hard speaches of yours or vncharitable suspicions of papisme Anabaptisme catharisme dona sme c. wherby you do as much as lyeth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shall not be able so to estrange vs or separate vs from you but that we will by gods grace holde whatsoeuer you holde well and kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth euen with you Master Doctor whom we s ppose as appeareth by this your booke to haue set yourselfe further frō vs than numbers of those whiche althoughe they be content to receiue the apparell and beare with things yet would haue bene loth to haue set downe that against the sinceritie of the Gospell and hind rance of reformation which you haue bone Io. Whitgifte Such lawes orders as kepe godly peace and vnitie in the Church do 〈◊〉 but the lawes for apparell kepe godly peace vnitie in the Church Ergo they edifie The M nor I proue by experience of such as are subiect to these lawes by the euent which is a probable kinde of reasoning though it be not necessarie neither may the examples of a few improue that which is generally true almost in all These persons that you talke of which be thus contrarily mynded if there be any such as I thinke you do but faine yet do they kepe the peace of the Church they condemne not their brethren neither yet the apparel that they them selues peraduenture for some speciall cause weare not Some I know there are which agrée with vs in wearing the apparell and ioyne with you in contention subscribe to all our orders articles and yet in certaine places and companies mainteine your opinions but of such we make no accompt neither I thinke do you further than they may serue your turne Againe I confesse that there be some which haue not receiued the apparell and yet greatly mislike many of your opinions and kéepe with vs the vnitie of the Churche whom I for my part haue alwayes reuerenced do reuerence not onely for their singular vertue learning but for their modestie also Wherfore when I speake eyther of the one or of the other I speake not of all but of the most part Certaine it is that those things which the Lord appointeth to kepe vnitie with and especially the sacraments ought to be the especiall bond of the same that nothing should separate those that are coupled and ioyned therein but we sée it fall out o the wise such is the crooked rebellious nature of mā therfore hath God also appointed Magistrats and giuen them a thoritie to make orders lawes to mainteine the peace and vnitie of the Churche that those which of conscience and good disposition will not by suche lawes and orders may be constrained at the least to kéepe the externall peace and vnitie of the Churche Doe you take this to be a good reason The Sacrament are bond to kepe and mainteyne the v itie of the spirite therefore there 〈◊〉 no lawes or Magistrates T. imagineth suche a perfection as is not to be ounde to prouide for the externall peace and quietnesse of the Churche your imagination throughoute your whole booke is of suche a perfection in men as thoughe they néeded no lawes or Magistrates to gouerne them but that euery man mighte be as it were a lawe to himselfe whiche wherevnto it tendeth may easily be coniectured I haue not set downe any thing I trust to the hinderance of the Gospell or of reformation ▪ but I séeke to reforme such contentious spirites as be enimyes vnto both And I
signe of purenesse that is in the Minister and therefore all this that you The forme of apparell may put a man in minde of 〈◊〉 dutie write in confuting of that myght haue bene cutte off and very well spared But if Master Martyr shoulde haue sayde that it maye be a signe of the purenesse that oughte to be in Ministers you are to séeke for an answere as yet Christ beyng puritie it selfe néeded nothyng to put hym in mynde thereof but man beyng impure may haue externall instrumentes to byd hym as it were remember what he ought to be I thinke that seuerall kyndes of habites be appoynted to men of diuerse degrées and calling partly for that purpose and if a man in graue apparell vse hymselfe lightly or wantonly we vse commonly to saye suche behauiour becommeth not that apparell meanyng that hys habite and apparell oughte to put him in mynde of modestie and grauitie and thys doth argue that euen méere ciuill things maye haue significations whiche ouerthroweth an other argument of yours whereby you woulde proue that the apparell muste of necessitie be an ecclesiasticall ceremonie bycause there is attributed vnto it some signification Whether it be a matter meare ciuill or meare Ecclesiasticall or mixt of both is not now the questiō neither yet whether the Church may be confounded wyth the common wealth or no and therfore I will not here deale with anye of them leaste I shoulde confounde both the matter and the Reader onely I speake of your argument whiche is confuted by common vsage for seuerall habites in the vniuersities signifie seuerall degrées in learnyng seuerall kynde of apparell seuerall callings and functions in the common wealthe and thys apparell doth put euerie man in mynde of hys duetie and yet they are not longer to be reteined than the Magistrate and the lawes doe permitte but are alterable accordyng to tymes places and persons No man sayth that there is vertue in such garmentes or power to worke godlynesse and therefore your pretie iestes builded vpon that ground are vayne and toyish and your topicall place not rightly vnderstanded for it is ment of such things quae per se aliquid faciunt Euery thing that signifieth any thing is not a sacrament for then were Matrimonie asacrament and so were laying on of hands and such like The Papistes vsed vnlawfull signes and attributed vnto them life and death for they made them necessarie to saluation Images whether they be grauen paynted or wouen are agaynste the expresse commaundement of God and therefore these be vnapte similitudes neyther woulde you haue vsed them if you had well considered M. Martyrs wordes The same I answere to your allegation of holy water and holy bread they be pseudoadiaphora and haue annexed vnto them opinion of saluation and of worship all which we vtterly remoue from these orders Your answere to M. Martyrs M. Bucers authoritie is sure but not greatly commendable T. C. refuseth y e iudgement of learned men whē he cannot otherwise anwere them In mens wri tings the circumstances of time and place must be distin guished for it is the easiest but the worst answere that can be to denie the authoritie of wise learned famous men that without reason onely by cauilling These be their knowne writings and they be written of purpose vpon these controuersies according to the circumstances of time place and person and therefore if any thing in their publike writings séeme to be against their iudgements here distinguishe the tyme and other circumstances and I doubt not but they will well agrée with themselues Interim you doe your endeuour to deface them Chap. 7. the ninth Diuision Admonition They haue the shewe of euill seing the Popishe priesthood is euill Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 240. Sect. 2. When they were a signe and token of the Popishe priesthood then How apparell is a signe of euill and how otherwise were they euil euen as the thing was which they signified but now they be the tokens the signes of the ministers of the worde of God which are good therfore also they be good no man in this Church of England is so ignorant but that he knoweth this apparell not to be nowe the signes of a Massing Priest but of a lawfull Minister wherfore it is a shew of good euen as it is in the like manner in the vniuersities a shewe and signe of degrees in learning and therefore a shewe of good excepte you will also condemne degrees of learning Neither is it any straunge matter for the selfe same thing in diuerse respects and at diuerse times to be the signe both of good and euill The bels were a signe of euill whē they were rung to cal to Masse and to stay stormes and tempests the selfe same bels are now a signe of good when they be rung to Sermons and other godly actions The Churches themselues were a signe of euil whē Idolatrie was committed in them false doctrine preached now they be a signe of good when God is rightly worshipped in them his worde truely preached Many such examples I could bring but a reasonable mā can gather of these sufficiently to confute your error Futhermore when we be willed to absteyne from all shewe of euill it is ment of euill life and euil doctrine least we doe any thing with a scrupulous conscience T. C. Pag. 59. tovvardes the ende M. Doctor proceedeth to proue that they are signes shewes of good not of euil as y e authors of the Admonition alleage To the proofe whereof although according to his manner he repeateth diuerse things before alleaged yet the summe of all he hathe comprehended in an argument which is that for so muche as the ministers are good which weare them therefore they are also good and bicause the ministers whereof the apparell are notes and markes be good therefore those be good notes and good markes so the reason is they are notes and notes of good ministers therefore they be good notes of the ministers So I will proue the names of Idols to be fit and conuenient names for good men to be called by Beltshaser Saddrake Misacke and Abed-nego were names of Daniell and his three companions and they were the names of good men therefore they are good names of men And so the names of the Babilonian Idols are by this reason of M. Doctor iustified to be good names Againe the golden calfe was a signe Also it was (*) Vntruth a signe of the true God therefore it was a true signe of God Concerning the notes of ciuill professions and what difference is betwene those and this cause I haue spoken before Io. Whitgifte The Admonition sayth thus they haue the shew of euill seing y e popish priesthood is euill To this I answer that whē they were a signe token of the popish priesthood then they were euill a signe of euill bicause the thing was euill which
that all other be vnder him haue their authoritie from him But this name may also aptly be giuen vnto 〈◊〉 that haue the ouersight of other bishops in the externall gouernment of the Churche in the which as I haue sayd Magistrates be called Gods Christ is the only head of the Church if by the head you vnderstande that which giueth How Christ is the onely head of the churche the bodie lyfe sense and motion For Christ only by his spirite doth giue life and nutriment to his bodie He only doth poure spirituall blessings into it and doth inwardly direct and gouerne it Likewise he is only the head of the whole Church for that title can not agree to any other But if by the head you vnderstande an xternall ruler or gouernour of any particular nation or Church in which signification head is vsually taken then I doe not perceiue why the Magistrate maye not How the ma gistrat 〈◊〉 be called 〈◊〉 of the church as well be called the head of the Churche that is the chiefe gouernour of it in the externall policie as he is called the head of the people and of the common weal h. And as it is no absurditie to say that the ciuill magistrate is heade of the common wealth next and immediatly vnder God for it is moste true so is it none to say that vnder God also he is head of the Churche that is chiefe gouernour as I haue before sayde Constantine in an Epistle that he writeth to the people of Alexandria Bishops called heades of churches and yet y e Popes supremacie i vsurped as it is reported by Athanasius Apol. 2. calleth Bishoppes Ecclesiarum capita the heades of their Churches And yet is the Popes Supremacie vsurp d bothe bicause it taketh from Magistrates that whiche is due vnto them and also vsurpeth the authoritie of Chryste in remittyng and retaynyng synnes in making Lawes contrarye to Gods Lawes whyche he sayeth be necessarie to Saluation in makyng hys Supremacie a matter of Saluation and in chalengyng authoritie ouer the whole Churche of Christ and an hundreth suche lyke presumptions The Archbishop being both vnder God and his Prince hath his name onely in respecte of his authoritie in certaine causes aboue other Bishops and that but in one prouince or kingdome only neyther can eyther the name or vse of it as it is in this Church offende any but such as be offended with all superiors and think that none ought to be better than themselues Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 1. 2. In the primitiue church the * name of a Pope was honest was al one with the name of a good Tertull. lib. de 〈◊〉 Cyp. li. 27. Hierome in his epistles to Augustine pastor but nowe by the ambition of the man of Rome it is so defyled that euery good man shaketh at the very mention of it The name of a tyrant was fyrst honorable and the same with a king and yet through crueltie and vniust rule of certaine it is become nowe so hatefull that no vpright and iust dealing Prince none that gouerneth with equitie and to the commoditie of his subiectes woulde beare to be called tyranne wherby it may appeare that it is not for nought that we doe stande of these names Io. Whitgifte Papa signifieth a father and was in tymes paste common to all Bishops but nowe it is proper to the bishop of Rome and therefore hated for his sake whome it nowe signifieth So tyrannus sometyme signified a king generally no e it signinifyeth A lawfull name maye remaine though it hath bene abused a cruell king and a bloudie gouernoure and therefore also abhorred But an Archbishop though the persons at sometime haue degenerated yet the name hath continued in the same signification and therfore the reasen is nothing lyke except you wil also for the lyke cause cōdemne the name of a Bishop or of a king for there haue bene many euill men called by the name of bishops and many tyrants by the name of kings and yet the names neuer the worsse If names shoulde be chaunged so ofte as they be abused some had nede to haue an office only to inuent new names There was a certaine kinde of heretikes that called themselues Apostolike and yet the name of an Apostle is neuer the worse A lawfull name of a lawfull office may remaine together with the office howesoeuer before tyme it hath bin abused Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 2. Nowe if the names ought to be odious being both horribly abused and also * Petitio principii for you haue not yet proued this forbidden by our Sauior Christ the things themselues must be in greater hatred the vnlawfulnesse whereof may thus appeare Io. Whitgifte This is a manifest petition of the principle and in no pointe as yet proued But let vs heare the reasons why the office should be condemned Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 3. First of all the ministerie is by the word of God and heauenly and not left to the wil of men to Scriptures willingly falsified ▪ to make them serue his turne deuise at their pleasure as appereth by that whych is noted of S. Iohn where the * The Phariseys made false arguments and so do you in fo owing them Phariseys cō ming to S. Iohn Baptist after he had denyed to be eyther Chryst or Elias or an other prophet * The Phariseys made false arguments and so do you in fo owing them conclude if thou be neither Christ nor Elias nor of y e Prophets why baptizest thou whych had ben no good argument if S. Iohn might haue ben of some other function thā of those which were ordinarie in the churche and instituted of God And therfore S. Iohn to establish his singular and extraordinarie function alledgeth the worde of God whereby appeareth that as it was not lawfull to bring in any strange doctrine so it was not lawfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function than was instituted by God Io. Whitgifte This is your fyrst argument the Phariseys comming to S. Iohn Baptist after he had denyed to be eyther Christ or Elias or an other Prophet conclude if thou be neyther Chryste nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptizest thou Ergo there may be no Archbishops which is your meaning But least you shoulde thinke that I cauill I will vse your owne conclusion which is this Ergo there was no other ordinarie function in the Churche This argument hath neyther head nor foote forme nor matter is this your exquisitenesse The disordered argument of y e Replier in Logike First your antecedent is vntrue and builded vpon the false allegation of the Scripture For the Phariseys doe not say vnto him If thou bee neyther Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets but these be the wordes of the text If thou bee not
nothyng in it neyther for the temple nor for the vessels of the temple nor or the beautie of it but according to the forme that was enioyned him as appeareth in the first of the kings and the second of the Chronicles And in the restoring of that temple zechiell is witnes e how the ange l by the commaundement of God doth parte by parte appoint all to b done bothe in the temple and in the furniture therof Io. Whitgifte These two examples of the Tabernacle and of the temple tende to one ende and might more aptly haue bene alleaged in the title of Ceremonies than of the gouernment of the Church bicause whatsoeuer is here spoken of ither of them perteyneth to Ceremonies and to the worshipping of God and not to externall policie and gouernment of the church and therfore moste vnaptely alleadged agaynste Archebishops The Replier 〈◊〉 by his own wordes Pag. 22. sect 1. c. But what néede I labor much in this matter when you your self in the. 22. pag. of your booke offer for one thing that I shall bring lefte to the order of this Church to shewe me that the Israelites had twentie that were vndecided by the expresse woorde And it is certaine that both Dauid and Salomon appoynted orders the one about the Tabernacle the other about the Temple whyche wée reade not in Scripture they were commaunded to doe And Dauid appoynted degrées of officers in the Temple and Salomon workmen and ouerseers whereof we doe not reade that they had any speciall commaundement 1. Par. 24. Chap. 5. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Page 63. Sect. 4. Nowe if the holie Ghoste in figures and tropes doth so carefully and as a man may speake uriously comprehende all things in the truth it selfe howe muche more is it to be thoughte that he hath performed this If in the shadowes how much more in the body If he haue doone this in earthly things and whiche shall perishe howe is it to be thought that he hathe 〈◊〉 performed it in heauenly and those whyche abyde for euer And then tell me what are those tymes of which it was sayd the Mel ▪ sias when he commeth will tell vs all Is it a lyke thing that he which did not only appoynt the temple and the tabernacle but the ornaments of them would not only neglect the ornaments of the church but also that without the which as we are borne in hand it cannot long stand Shal we thinke that he which remembred the barres there hath forgotten the pillers here or he y t there remembred the pinnes did here forget the maister builders how he should there remember the besoms and here forget Archbishops if any had bene needful that he should there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights and here passe by the lightes themselues And to conclude that he shuld make mention there of the moates and here say nothing of the beames there recken vp the gnattes here kepe silence of the camel es What is this else but that which Aristotle sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to looke to smal things and not to looke to great which if it can not fall into the Lorde l t it be a shame to say that the chief piller and vpholder of the Church is not expressed in the scripture nor can not be concluded of it Io Whitgifte You haue before confessed Pag. 15. that certaine things are left to the order of the Church T. C. reth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bycause they are of that nature which are varied by times places persons other circumstāces 〈◊〉 which is sufficient to answere whatsoeuer you haue here spokē of the care ulnesse of the holy ghost in the truth it selfe aboue figures and tropes Although there is no doubte but the holy ghost was as carefull in the one as in the other and loued the one people as wel as the other and therefore it may be an argument à paribus but not minori as you seeme to make it I haue told you before also why god did more particularly prescribe euery ceremonie to the Israelites in the law than he hath done to his p ople in the Gospell God hath in his Gospell performed and fulfilled all the tropes and sig res of the law Iob 2 whatsoeuer Christ which is the Messias hath told vs all things that are necessary to saluation Iohn 20. and so is that place in the. 4. of Iohn to be vnderstanded We make not an Archbyshop necessary to saluation but profitable for the gouernment of the Church and therefore consonant to the word of God as shall be declared We know the Church of Christ is not builded vpon any man eyther as vpon foundation or pillers if we speake properly but vpon Christ himselfe and his worde which remaine vnmoueable we know also that the same Church may stand wit out the external help of man But yet hath God appointed functions in his Churche both ecclesiasticall and ciuill as meanes to kéepe it in externall peace di cipline and or er and though he hath not expressed the names yet hath he allowed the 〈◊〉 Among men the chiefe piller that vpholdeth the Churche is the Christian prince and magistrate and yet where haue you in the Gospell any such expresse mention made thereof as there is in the appointing of the tabernacle of Beesoms snuffers c. whiche e amples you vse in derision suche is your modestie and reuerence We knowe that all things nec ssary to saluation are much more plainly expressed in the Gospell than in the law We are also well assured that Christ in his word hath fully and playnly comprehended all things requisite to faith and good life but yet hath he committed certaine orders of ceremonies and kind of gouernmente to the disposition of his Churche the generall rules giuen in his worde being obserued and nothing being done contrary to his will and commaundement therein conteyned as haue proued before Chap. 1. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 5. Moreouer (a) A 〈◊〉 ma or these ministeries without the which the Church is fully builded and broughte to perfec ion and complete vnitie are (b) An vntr minor not to be reteyned in the Church but without the ministeries of Archbyshop c. the Churche may be fully bu lded and brought to perfection therefore these ministeries are not to be reteyned Io. Whitgifte Your minor is vntrue For the Church in a kingdome where it hath an external gouernmēt where it includeth both good and bad where it is molested with contentious persons with schismes heresies c. cannot enioy complete vnitie nor be perfectly The maior tendeth to th shu ing out of the 〈◊〉 magistrate The Church must not only be brought to persection but also be preserued therem ▪ gouerned touching the externall forme and gouernment without such offices and gouernours Your maior also conteyneth daungerous doctrine including as well the christian magistrate
you meane that eyther all kinde of ecclesiasticall discipline and gouernment is committed to all such as preach the worde or in as ample manner to one as to another you haue not yet proued it neyther will you be hable to proue it with all the learning that you thinke your selfe to haue That in 1. Tim. 5. doth proue no such matter as you pretende For what doth What it is to rule well S. Paule meane there by gouerning well Christ Ecclesiae suae tum doctrina tum integritate vitae fideliter inseruire non suased quae Dei sunt quaerere to serue Christ and his Church faythfully both in doctrine and integritie of lyfe to seeke not those things which are his but those which are Gods Thus do the learned interpreters expound bene praeesse in this place Is not the office of teaching exhorting reprouing an office of ruling and gouerning But you say that the Apostle doth make two kinde of gouernours one that trauayleth in the worde the other that doth not And what then he that diligently doth that office that is committed vnto him whether it be in preaching the worde prouiding for the poore visiting the sicke or any such lyke function doth rule well But doth it therefore follow that all haue like authoritie or that there is no kinde of Ecclesiasticall gouernment or discipline but that which is common to all the ministers of the worde Certayne it is that euery Pastor that doth his duetie in All ministers gouerne but not alike preaching ruleth well and so do they also that duely and truly administer the Sacraments relieue the poore visite the sicke priuately admonish c. But is there therefore none that hath superioritie ouer them to procure that those things be done accordingly to correct them if they be not done to sée that euery man be kept in order be obedient to lawes teach true doctrine breake not vnitie c This place therefore helpeth you not For although all ministers of the woorde rule and gouerne after a sort yet do not they al so in all kinde of gouernment nor equally for they also must haue gouernours But consider your reason or at the least the end of your drifte All ministers of the Wherevnto 〈◊〉 dust of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 worde gouerne their parishes by preaching the woorde rebuking sinne c. Ergo th y must haue none to gouerne them and kéepe them in order and sée that they do their duetie it is all one with this Euery Master of a familie ruleth ouer his familie ▪ and therefore he must haue no superïour to rule ouer him or euery chiefe officer of Cities or Townes be rulers and gouernours of those places therfore they must haue none to rule and gouerne either their cities and townes or themselues In déed this is a plausible doctrine to make euery Pastor chiefe gouernour within his owne parishe and to make euery citie and towne a kingdome within it selfe but it is a pestilent doctrine for in short time there would be as many Popes as Pastors as many religions as parishes as many sectes as families and in the end an ouerthrow both of religion the Churche and the kingdome Neyther coulde there possibly haue bene inuented a more readier way for the Pope to make his entrie in hither againe Of your distinction of Presbyter I will speake in a more fitte place I haue not forgot my selfe but you neyther vnderstande as it appeareth my writings neyther yet your own for hyther to you haue fought wythout an aduersarie And yet I muste put you in minde of your falsehoode and subtill dealing for whereas I saye that the Apostle in the. 4. Ephe. speaketh onely of those ministers and ministeries which are occupied in prayers the worde and administration of the sacraments you by displacing the woorde only make your Reader beléeue that I affirme the Apostle to speake in that place of those that meddle with the ministring of the word and Sacraments onely as if I shoulde seclude the ministers of the worde from all kinde of gouernment Chap. 1. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. And least any man should say I confute my owne shadow I must let him to vnderstand that there is a Pamphlet in Latin which is called the (*) The booke named but 〈◊〉 you haue consuted your shadow and not the boke as hath appeared boke of the Doctors which goeth from hande to hande and especially so far as they could bring to passe to those only that they thought to fauour that opinion in the which booke all these answeres vnto the place of the Ephesians are conteyned and almost all that which is comprehended in this defense of Archbyshops and Archdeacons wyth other things also which are founde in this booke of M. Doctors and therefore it is very likely that he hauing no other way to vent his rapsodies and rackings togither thought he would bring them to light after this sort But how much better had it bene that this mishapen thing had had the mothers wombe for the graue or being brought out had bene hidden as the former is in some bench-hole or darke place where it shoulde neuer haue seene any light nor no mans eye should euer haue loked of it Io. Whitgifte It had bene much for your credite if you had set downe the wordes of that booke the which you and your fautors in derision cal the booke of Doctors Which you haue only named and not cōfuted The booke dare abide the light and the Author also but so dare not you To the rest of your woordes my answere is onely this that you bewray your spirite for further proofe hereof I referre the reader to the third Chapter of S. Iames from the tenth verse to the end Chap. 1. the. 29. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. And thus al these clowds being scattered by the sunne of the truth you see that the place to the Ephesians standeth strong against the Archbyshop and Archedeacon Io. Whitgifte Nothing lesse but the contrary for any thing that you haue spoken yet Chap. 1. the. 30. Diuision T. C. Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Pag 66. Sect. 1. Nowe I will reason also after this sort out of the place of the Ephesians and Corinthians ioyned together There is no function but hath giftes fit and apte to discharge it annexed and gyuen vnto it wherevpon the Apostle by a Metonomie doth call the Apostles Prophets c. giftes bycause they haue alwayes giftes ioyned with them This being graunted as no man can denie it I reason thus (a) Syllogisme without all forme Those functions only are sufficent for the church which haue all the gifts needefull eyther for the ministring of the worde and sacraments or for the gouernment of the churche but all these functions reckened of S. Paule to the Ephesians with those which S. Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which are the Deacons and elders
to shewe that in citing him in this manner and forme that I doe I doe no otherwyse than other godly and learned men haue done You shal vnderstande ere I come to an ende that I haue not alleadged him for any néede Your argument to proue that Iames was no Archebishop bicause Eusebius and other doe call him Bishop and not Archebishop is of the same nature that your other arguments be that is ab authoritate negatiuè and therefore must be sent away with the same answere Whether the Apostles placed Iames and Simeon at Ierusalem or no is not the question But you are something deceyued in your quotation for you should in the place of the. 22. chapter of Eusebius haue noted the. 11. chapter The place of Ireneus thoughe it make not agaynst any thing that I haue spoken if it were as you doe alleage it yet muste I tell you that it is by you not truely vnderstoode For Ireneu dothe not saye that the Apostles dyd togither in euery place Irenaeu appoynte Bishops but he sayth Secundum successiones Episcoporum quibus illi eam quae in vnoqueque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt According to the succession of Bishops to whome they committed the Churche that was in euery place Meaning that euery one of the Apostles dyd appoynt Bishops in those Churches whiche they had planted as S. Paule did at Ephesus and Creta And notwithstanding that in some Churches the Apostles togither dyd place Bishops yet that in other Churches whiche they planted Sometime one Apostle did appoynt Bishops Tertulli de praescript they dyd the same seuerally it is manyfest not onely by these examples of Timothie and Titus but of sundry other whereof we maye reade in ecclesiasticall histories and namely of * Policarpus made Bishop of Smirna by S. Iohn And you your selfe testifie the same of S. Iohn out of Eusebius euen in the nexte section Moreouer it can not be gathered eyther out of the wordes of Ireneus or any other ecclesiasticall historie that the Apostles dyd place Bishops any where but in the chiefe and principall Townes and Cities committing vnto them the gouernment of other Uillages and Townes and the appoynting of seuerall Pastors for them as it is also euident in the foresayde examples of Timothie and Titus and the wordes of Ireneus importe the same But if they had in euery Hamlet placed Pastors yet dothe it not followe but that there mighte be some one in a Dioces or Prouince by whome these Pastors shoulde be directed As Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Crete Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. vlt. And heere you put me in remembrance of an other argument agaynst the Archbishop which I will frame after this sorte (a) The maior false If there should be any Archbishop in any place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the person or minister and his excellencie or in respect of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent ministers that euer were in the most famous places were no Archebishops but Bishops onely therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any Archebishop For if there were euer minister of a congregation worthy that was Iames. If there were euer any Citie that ought to haue this honor as that the minister of it shoulde haue a more honorable title than the ministers of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the Gospell issued out into all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the Churche there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bin since whiche also deserued great honour for that there the Disciples were first called Christians but neyther was that called the first and chiefest Churche neyther the ministers of it called the Arche or principall Bishops Io. Whitgifte It is a straunge matter that you should so grossely erre in making arguments séeing you haue taken vpon you so great skill in that Arte. But I will not be occupied in examining the forme of it Your maior is not true for suche offices maye be appoynted rather in the respecte of the time and of the persons that are to be gouerned Why these offices are appoynted than of the worthynesse of the minister or the dignitie of the plate and therefore your maior doth not conteyne a perfect and sufficient distribution Agayne the worthinesse of the person and the dignitie of the place be not at all the causes why suche offices shoulde be appoynted in the Churche but the suppression of sectes the peace of the Churche and the good gouernment of the same The worthinesse of the person may make him méete for suche an office and the place may be conuenient for suche officers to remayne in but neyther of them bothe can be a sufficient cause why suche offices should be appoynted I knowe the worthiest cities haue had the preheminence in suche matters but it was bicause they were the most méetest places for that purpose and the place dothe onely adde one péece of title to the office but it is not the cause of the office Lastly you haue not yet proued that there was no Archbishops in those places or that Iames had not that office Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Lin. 9. This is contrar to that whiche was immediatly affirmed before And Eusebius to declare that this order was firme and durable sheweth in the thirde booke 13. chapter that Sainct Iohn the Apostle whiche ouerliued the residue of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in euery Citie Io. Whitgifte This is no reason at all S. Iohn ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche therfore there was no one Bishop superiour vnto them to gouerne and directe them in matters of The office of an archbishop in S. Iohn discipline order a d doctrine if occasion serued I thinke that S. Iohn him selfe was directer and gouernour of them all and in effecte their Archebishop And that dothe manifestly appeare in that thirde booke and. 23. chapter of Eusebius For thus he sayth In those dayes Iohn the Apostle and Euangelist whome the Lorde loued lyued Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 2 ▪ as yet in Asia whiche did gouerne the Churches there after he was returned out of the Isle from banishement after the death of Domitian And a little after he saythe That he went beeing desired ad vicina Gentium loca vt partim constitueret Episcopos partim tota ecclesias componeret partim clerum ex his quos spiritus sanctus iudicasset sorte deligeret Vnto the places of the Gentiles adioyning partly that he mighte appoynte Bishops partly that he might establishe whole Churches partly that he mighte by lotte choose suche into the Cleargie as the holy Ghost shoulde assygne So that whether he had the name of Archbishop or no certayne it is that he had the gouernment and direction of the rest and that he appoynted Bishops and other Ministers Eusebius dothe
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
declared Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 76. Sect. 1. Furthermore to shape the Archbishop by these places of Cyprian you muste be driuen to expounde this worde Churche Prouince The Papistes whiche cite this place for the Pope as you doe for the Archbishop they expounde the worde Churche heere to be the whole Church vniuersall and Catholike And in deede although it be falsly expounded so in this place yet maye they doe it with more probabilitie and likelyhoode than to expounde it a Prouince for so much as these wordes the Churche is oftener read bothe in the Scripture and olde writers to signifie the whole Churche than any prouince of one Realme but let Cyprian expounde him selfe what he meaneth by a Churche heere although that may easily appeare by that whiche is spoken of S. Cyprian his Bishop wheras Cyprian declareth that Cornelius the Bishop of the Church which was in Rome would not let Felicissimum a Nouatian heretike beeing caste out by the Bishops of Affrike to enter into the Churche he declareth sufficiently that he meaneth that company of the faythfull whiche were gathered togither at Rome to heare the worde and to communicate at the sacraments (*) A cauill ▪ For it was not Cornelius parte to shut him out of the Prouince neyther in deede coulde he himselfe beeing not able without hazarde by reason of the persecution that then was to tarie in any part of the prouince Agayn speaking agaynst y e Nouatian heretike he sheweth that throughe his wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen the confession of faultes in the Churche was hindred Nowe it is manyfest that confession was not made throughout the prouince but in that particular Churche where the party dwelte that committed the faulte Therefore Cyprian vnderstandeth by the name of the Churche neyther Dioces as we call Dioces and muche lesse a whole prouince And in the same Epistle speaking of those whiche had fallen he sayth that they durst not come so muche as to the thresholde or entry of the Church where he also opposeth the Churche to the Prouince saying that they roue about the Prouince and runne about to deceyue the brethren Io. Whitgifte I expounde this worde Churche in this place no otherwise than al learned writers expounde it that is for that prouince diocesse whereof Cornelius was Bishop and it is no vnaccustomed thing to cal the Church which is extended through a prouince by the name of the chiefe Citie or Metropolitane seate of the Prouince as the Churche of Rome all that that is subiecte to the Bishop of Rome the Churche of Carthage all that that is belonging to the Bishop of Carthage And this is truely to expound the places of Cyprian and may be iustified both by examples authorities as I haue proued before wheras your interpretatiō hath no shadow or shew of truth But you had rather iustifie the Papists interpretation than séeme to relent to the The zeale of the Replier authoritie of an Archbishop Suche is your zeale Cyprians wordes touching Cornelius dealing with Felicissimus the Nouatian be these Likewise that thou mightest knowe of Felicissimus the author of the sedition Lib. 1. Epist. 3. who also is conteyned in the letters of our fellowe Bishops written of late vnto them whiche Felicissimus is not onely driuen from hence by them Sed abs te illic nuper de ecclesia nullus est but is there of late expelled by thee out of the Churche Of these wordes you gather this argument Cyprian signifieth that Cornelius had banished Felicissimus from the Churche of Rome Ergo Cornelius was Bishop but of one Parishe or Citie or therefore a Churche in that place signifieth one onely particular congregation gathered togither in one Towne What kinde of coniectures call you these And what thoughe Cornelius coulde not shut him out of the Prouince mighte he not therefore by excommunication seclude him from the congregation of the faythfull throughout the Prouince Doe you thinke that he forceably shutte him out of the locall Churche of Rome or rather dealte with him according to the ecclesiasticall Censures You maye delude simple readers that beléeue whatsoeuer you saye but suche as be able to examine your doings can not if they wyll searche but finde passing forgerie Agayne you saye speaking agaynst the Nouatian heretikes c. Cyprians wordes touching that matter be these Quibus etiam non satis fuit ab Euangelio recessisse spem lapsis Ibidem satisfactionis poenitentiae sustulisse fraudibus inuolutos vel adulterijs commaculatos sacrificiorum funesta contagione pollutos ne Deum rogarent ne in ecclesia exomologesiu criminum facerent The Nouatian heresie ab omni sensu fructu remouisse To whome it was not inoughe to haue departed from the Gospell to haue taken awaye hope and satisfaction and repentance from those that haue fallen to haue remoued from all feeling and fruite of repentance those that are taken in snares or defiled with adulteries or polluted with the deadly contagion of sacrifices that they should not pray to God nor make confession of their sinnes in the congregation What dothe Cyprian else meane by these wordes but that Nouatus denyed repentance to suche as were fallen and woulde not receyue them agayns into the Churche that is not this or that parishe but the Churche of Christ the congregation of the faythfull for that was Nouatus herefie negare veniam lapsis to denie forgiuenesse to those that fell And therefore also he denied vnto them the fruites of repentance as confession of their offences in the congregation of the faythfull c. For Nouatus opinion was not that suche shoulde onely be secluded from this or that congregation but generally from the Churche of Christe and hope of saluation And therfore in that place of Cyprian is ment that Churche extra quam non est salus without the which there is no saluation And to what purpose doe you procéede and go on forward saying That in the same Epistle speaking of those that had fallen c. What proueth it but that those heretikes had caste them into suche a dispayre of forgiuenesse that they durste not offer them selues to be receyued into the Churche that is to repentance And that the same Heretikes béeing them selues excommunicated wandred vp and downe sowing the pestilent séede of their doctrine This is to oppose Heretikes and Schismatikes whiche runne vp and downe in corners to the true members of the Churche But it is not to oppose the Churche to the Prouince For the Prouince if it be Chrystened is the Churche althoughe it conteyne in it seuerall congregations whiche be also Churches and yet béeing members of it are subiecte to one Bishop and so dothe the whole Epistle of Cyprian declare neyther can there anything be gathered out of it to the contrarie for a testimonie wherof I call to witnesse these your weake collections which you would
〈◊〉 gainst 〈◊〉 In the beginning there were Apostles therfore there must be Apostles now in y e beginning it was forbiddē to eate y t which was strangled Ergo we may not eate it now In y e beginning there were no Christian Magistrates Ergo there must e no e now In the beginning the Apostles baptized in riuers the cōmunion was ministred to 12. only c. Ergo quòd posterius falsū that which is latter is false these be as good arguments as yours But it is manifest that Tertullian speaketh of matters of faith necessarie to saluation therfore these arguments yours also with such like be starke naught Chap. 3. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. vlt. Now seing that Hierome confesseth y t a Bishop an elder by God his institution are all one that custome of y e Church hath altered this institutiō for the taking away of this custome restoring of the Lords institution I say as our sauiour Christ said why do you breake the cōmaundements Math 15. of God to establish your own traditions ▪ for the one is the institution of God the other the tradition of the Church if a mans testimonie be so much with M. Doctor let him heare what y ◠same Develand virg Tertullian saith whatsoeuer sauoreth against the truth shal be accounted heresie euen although it be an olde custome Io. Whitgifte Your whole bóoke is groūded vpon the sands y t is vpō foūdatiōs not proued as this is For you should first haue proued that Christ hath so cōmaunded equalitie of Ministers in gouernment ecclesiastical pollicie that one of them may not be aboue the other the contrary is to be sene in scripture both in words examples as I haue after declared so far of is it that you can shew any cōmaundement to the contrary Thys text of y e. 15. of Mat. did the Anabaptistes obiect vnto Zuinglius in the like case as it appeareth in his boke de Baptismo But he answered thē as I must answere you I speake Zuing. de 〈◊〉 not as you feyne me to speake I speake only of external indifferent things wherof there be many which are neither cōmaunded nor forbidden by any expresse worde of God c. againe for this that we speake of is not necessarrie vnto saluation but it is external of the which things many may be foūd omitted in the scriptures c. Wherfore except you can proue that we bring into the Church some thing as necessary vnto saluation which is not expressed in the scriptures this text is no more aptly applyed by you against me than it was by the Anabaptists against Zuinglius The wordes of Tertullian are true and make nothing for your purpose for you must first proue that these degrées be against the truth Chap. 3. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 80. Line 3. Now I will turne M. Doctors owne argument vpon his head after this sort (a) A sillogisme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In the Apostles times there were b schismes heresies but in their times ther were no archbishops ordeined to appeare them therfore the best meanes of composing of controuersies and keping concorde is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you are 〈◊〉 to your 〈◊〉 ▪ pag. 7 〈◊〉 5. by hauing an Archbishop to be ouer a whole Prouince Io. Whitgifte I will seuerally answere your arguments that the reader may the better vnderstand the pith of them And first I denie this argument bicause it is neither in mode A 〈◊〉 argument dis 〈◊〉 nor sigure For first you must cal to memory that in the third figure where you wold seeme to place it the Minor may not be negatiue as yours is Secondly there is more in the conclusiō then there is in the premisses which is against al rules of sillogismes If you had concluded according to your former propositions you shoulde haue sayde thus Ergo when there are Archbishops there are no schismes For this is the true conclusion of that false sillogisme Thirdly Minus extremum should be subiectum conclusionis and in this argument it is praedicatū Seing therfore that your argument hath no true forme in any respect I denie it vntill it be better framed Chap. 3. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Line 7. That there was none in the y t Apostles times thus it may appeare If there were any they were either ordeined by the Apostles their authoritie or else without and besides their authoritie If there were any without besides their authoritie then they are therefore to be condemned y t more bicause in their time they starie vp without their warrant And if the Apostles did ordeine them there was some vse of them to that whervnto they were ordeined but there was no vse of them to that whervnto they were ordeined therfore the Apostles did not ordeine them The vse whervnto M. Doctor saith they were ordeined was to compose controuersies and ende schismes but to this they were not vsed wherevpon it followeth that if there were any they were vnprofitable That they were not vsed to any such ende it shall be perceiued by that which followeth Io. Whitgifte This should be the proofe of your former Minor if the argument had bene good but be it as you would haue it here is yet no sufficient proofe of your Minor They are but only your owne bare words which may as easily be reiected as they be barely by you affirmed But least the ignorant reader shoulde thinke that I shifte of matters wyth suche quidities as they vnderstand not I will set a side the deformed face of your argument and come to the matter as I thinke your meaning which is this Controuersies were compounded in the Apostles time without an Archbyshop Ergo they maye lykewise be so now so that there is no neede of any Archbishop This is the controuersie whether the Church be bound to the same kind of external gouernment at all times that was vsed in y e Apostles times I haue proued hetherto that it is not And more is to be The office of an archbyshop in y e Apostles Ad. 4. 15. 18. 1 Cor. 3. 4. 5. ▪ l'traque id tim epi ad Tit. Euseb. lib 3. Cap. 23. Epibha lib. 1. Tom. 2. said of the same afterwards In the meane time this I giue you to vnderstand that althoughe the Apostles had not this name of Archbishop among them yet they had the same authoritie and office For they had the gouernment direction of diuers Churches both in matters of doctrin discipline they ended controuesies repressed errors kept them in quietnesse ordeined them Bishops visited them as appeareth Act. 14. 15. 18. 1. Cor. 3. 4. 5. in the Epistle to Timothie Titus Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 23. declareth of Iohn the Euangelist that after he returned from Pathmos he visited gouerned sundry Churches ordeined them Ministers The like doth Epiphanius report of Peter
well gouerne a prouince or diocesse and vse the heipe of Archdeacons Chauncellors c. but so cannot the Pope doe whole Christendome what helpe or deputies soeuer he haue If agaynst your will you were constrayned to make such comparisons why do you make Difference betwene the Pope and our Archbishops them when there is no cause why do you forge that which is vntrue why do you ioyne togither offices which in no poynt are like The Pope chalengeth authoritie ouer all Christendome so do not our Archbishops The Pope exalteth himselfe aboue Kings and Princes so do not our Archbishops but with all reuerence acknowledge their subiection to the Prince The Pope sayeth that to be subiect vnto him is of necessitie to saluation so do not our Archbishops The Pope maketh his Decrées equall to the woorde of God our Archbishops thinke nothing lesse of theirs To be short the Pope oppresseth and persecutetth the Gospel they earnestly professe it and haue suffered persecution for it Therefore your comparison is odious your riotous speach more presumptuous than becommeth a man pretending your simplicitie Your good opinion conceyued of them is well vttered in your booke what spirit hath taught you thus to dissemble surely euen the same that hath falsified Scriptures and wryters in your booke that hath vttered so many prowde and contemptuous speaches agaynst your superiours that hath moued you to make contention in the Churche euen spiritus mendax spiritus arrogantiae superbiae a lying spirite the spirite of arrogancie and pryde for such frutes cannot procéede from any other spirite Chap. 3. the. 34. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 3. 4. But Ierome sayth that this distinction of a Bishop a minister or elder was frō S. Marke his tyme vnto Dionysius time whereby M. Doctor would make vs beleeue that Marke was the author of this distinction but that cannot be gathered by Ieromes wordes For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and Elders it might as it falleth out oftentimes be done without the approbation of S. Marke the wordes from Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shut out S. Marke and the time wherein he liued than inclusiuely to shut him in the tyme wherein this distinction rose Howsoeuer it be it is certayne that S. Marke did not distinguishe and make those things diuers which the holy ghost made all one For then which the Lord forbid he should make the storie of the Gospell which he wrote suspected Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to Ieromes woordes but a dallying with them the place is euident he sayth from the time of Marke the Euangelist whom vndoubtedly he would not haue named vnlesse the same manner had bene in his time But be it that the wordes from Marke be taken exclusiuely which no man of Iudgement will graunt yet doth it argue a great antiquitie of this distinction euen from the moste pure and best time of the Churche It is certayne that these thinges were not otherwise distinguished than the holy Ghost had appoynted and therefore your for then c. is an vngodly collection and vnbeséeming your person in any respect to imagine of the glorious Gospell written by that holy Euangelist Chap. 3. the. 35. Diuision T. C Pag. 2. Sect. 5. Againe it is to be obserued that Ierome sayeth it was so in Alexandria signifying thereby An absurde collection that in other Churches it was not so And indeede it may appeare in diuers places of the auncient fathers that they confounded Priest and Bishop and tooke them for all one as Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Ani ete Pius Telesphorus Higinus Xystus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lib. 5. 16. De dignitate sacerdotali Elders and presidents Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop in the Epistles before recited so doth Ambrose in the place alledged before by M. Doctor and yet it is one thing with vs to be a priest as M. Doctor speaketh and an other thing to be a Bishop Io. Whitgifte This argument passeth of all that euer I heard Ierome sayth there was a Bishop The passing Logike of T. C. in Alexandria aboue the other ministers from S. Markes time therefore there was no Bishop in any place else God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Iacob Ergo he is no bodies God else he is the God of the Iewes Ergo not of the Gentiles There be Bishops in England Ergo there are none in any other place No marueyle it is though you riot in your Logike when such stuffe is set abroad Like vnto this are the other Eusebius out of Ireneus calleth Anitete Pius Telesphorus c. elders and presidents and Cyprian confoundeth Priest and Bishop and so doth Ambrose Ergo euery Priest is such a Bishop as Ierome here speaketh of These be pretie argumentes Euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest hath not the name and title of a Bishop Difference betwixt byshop priest Hieronymus ad Euagrium in that meaning that Ierome in this place taketh the name of a Byshop For his woordes be these Nam Alexandriae à Marco Euangelista vsque ad Heraclam c. At Alexandria from Marke the Euangelist vntill Heracla and Dionysius Bishops the ministers alwayes chose one from among themselues and placing him in a higher degree of dignitie called him a Bishop as if an armie should make a Captayne ▪ c. Neyther shall you finde this woorde Episcopus commonly vsed but for that Priest that is in degrée ouer and aboue the rest notwithstanding Episcopus be oftentimes called Presbyter bycause Presbyter is the more generall name so that M. Doctor sayth truely that it is with vs one thing to be a Byshop an other thing to be a priest bycause euery Bishop is a Priest but euery Priest is not a Bishop I know these names be confounded in the Scriptures but I speake according to the manner and custome of the Church euen since the Apostles time And this is not onely my opinion but other learned men affirme it in lyke manner as M. Bucer in his booke De regno Christi and vpon the. 4. Ephes. Whose woordes I haue before rehersed Thus you sée that M. Doctors distinction is with better authoritie cōfirmed than you haue any to ouerthrow it Chap. 3. the. 36. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. vlt. Ierusalem was a famous Church so was Rome as the Apostle witnesseth so was Antioche Rom. 1. and others where also were great contentions both in doctrine and otherwise and yet for auoyding of contention schisine there there was no (*) An vntruth one that was ruler of the rest Therfore we ought rather to follow these Churches beyng many in keping vs to the institutiō of the Apostles than Alexandria beyng but one Church and departing from that institution if there had bene any one set ouer al the rest in other places it would haue made much for the distinctiō that Icrome had
of a mayster which is farre otherwise here (*) So is the condition of a good seruant vnder a good master muche better than the condition of an vnruly sonne vnder a wise father For the condition of many seruaunts vnder their maysters is much more free than the condition of a Minister vnder his Bishop And afterwarde he sheweth wherein that authoritie or dignitie of the Bishop ouer the Minister lyeth that is in exhorting of him in chyding of him ▪ as he doth the lay people and yet he will haue also the Minister although not with suche authoritie after a modest sort to do the same vnto the Bishop And so he concludeth that they reteyne these orders notwithstanding the Anabaptistes Nowe let the reader iudge whether Hemingius be truely or faythfully alledged or no or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their Church Archbishoppes Primates Metropolitanes Archdeacons or whether the Byshoppes in the Churches of Denmarke are any thing like ours For I 〈◊〉 omitte that he speaketh there agaynst all pompe in the Ministerie all worldly superioritie or ghnesse bycause I * And therefore you cu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sentences loue not to wryte out whole pages as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wrytings to helpe to make vp a booke Io. Whitgifte Hemin in that very place quoted in your margēt hath first these words Praeterea cū hic c tus c. Furthermore seing this society is ruled by the word of god there are in it two sorts of men that is to say the preachers of the worde and their hearers which do reuerence and Hemingius alloweth distinction of degrees in the ministerie loue one another as fathers and children But in the Ministers there is great diuersitie for although the authoritie of all Ministers in respect of spirituall regiment is all one for of externall discipline shall be spoken in the proper place yet there are diuerse orders and degrees of honour and dignitie and that partly by the worde of God partly by the approbation and allowance of the Church Where first he alloweth this distinction which you so greatly mislyke that all Ministers be equall touching spirituall iurisdiction that is their ministerie but not concerning externall discipline then doth he allowe degrées of dignitie and superioritie among the Clergie the which after that he hath prooued by the Scripture as namely the. 4. to the Ephesians and by the examples of Paule Hemingius acknowledgeth Patriarches in the primitiue Churche The office of Patriaches in the primatiue Church Timothie and Titus he procéedeth and goeth on forwarde and sayth Ecclesia c. The Church to whome the Lorde hath giuen power vnto edification hath ordeyned an order of ministeries for hir profite that all things might be rightly ordeyned for the reedifying of the bodie of Christ. Hereof the Primitiue Church following the tymes of the Apostles did appoynt some Patriarkes whose office it was to prouide that the Byshoppes of euerie 〈◊〉 shoulde be rightly ordeyned and elected that the Bishops shoulde doe their duetie truely and that the Clergie and people shoulde obey them in those things that perteyned to the Lorde it appoynted also Chorepiscopos that is coadiutors of Bishoppes whome we nowe call Prouostes some Pastors and Catechistes This was the ordination of the Primitiue Church Wherein he plainly declareth these degrées that I speake of for vnder the name of Patriarkes it is euident that he comprehendeth Archbyshops or Metropolitanes to haue bene in the Primitiue Church immediately after the Apostles tyme and in the purest time of the Church than the which what can be spoken more directly for my purpose whose chiefe intent is to proue the antiquitie of these names and offices After this he sheweth the abuses of these offices in the corruption of doctrine vnder the Pope and he doth not onely name Archbishops but Bishops also Curates and other and therefore the note in your margent is but a note of a speciall spyte agaynst the Archbishops In the end speaking of Bishops Pastors and Doctors he sayth thus Inter hos ministros c. Amongst these ministers also our Churche acknowledgeth degrees To take away degrees is barbarousnes and orders of dignitie for the diuersitie of giftes the greatnesse of labour and the worthinesse of their calling and iudgeth it to be barbarous to will to take this order out of the Church It iudgeth that other Ministers ought to obey their Bishops in all things that tend Ministers subiect to Bishops to the edification of the Church according to the worde of God and the profitable order of the Church It iudgeth that the Bishops haue authoritie ouer the other ministers of the Church not such as is of masters but of fathers Wherby he acknowledgeth distinction of degrées and superioritie among Ministers and the iurisdiction of Bishops ouer other Ministers After all this he concludeth with these wordes conteyned in mine answere Nowe let the reader iudge whether I haue otherwise reported of Himingius than he himselfe in that Chapter affirmeth and whether he consent vnto me that woulde haue distinction of degrées among the Ministers or to you that would haue an equalitie which he calleth an Anabaptisticall and barbarous confusion Touching your notes gathered out of him I will briefly answere first in the exposition of the. 22. of Luke he is not agaynst me for I would not haue Archbishops or Bishops c. to take from Kings their rule and dominion as doth the Pope neyther woulde I haue them to reigne ouer the people as Kings and Princes do And I doe not thinke but that the authoritie and superioritie that they haue is a ministerie for the quietnesse of the Church and the commoditie of other and yet a gouernment to for the Apostle sayth ad Hebr. 13. Obedite his qui praesunt vobis Obey them that Heb. 13. beare rule ouer you c. Hemingius in that place especially dealeth agaynst the two swordes of the Bishop of Rome and his excessiue pompe For the kinde of authoritie that the Bishop hath ouer the Ministers that it should What kind of authoritie the Bishos exercise be of a father and not of a master I agrée with him and I knowe that all you speake to the contrarie in the gouernment of this Churche is most vntrue For vndoubtedly if they haue offended in any thing it is in to much lenitie whiche is a fault euen in a father The authoritie that Hemingius giueth to the ciuill Magistrate we acknowledge with him to be moste due and I would to God you also dyd in heart and mouthe confesse the same Thus you sée that Hemingius and we agrée and that there is nothing ascribed vnto him whiche is not playnely to be founde in him Chap. 3. the. 73. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Lin. 11. Sect. 1. Wherefore thus I conclude with the very wordes of that worthy M. Foxe ▪ man who hathe so well deserued
you that the Lorde ordeyned that there should be in euery congregation diuers pastors elders or Byshops The place of scripture if there be any had bin soone quoted Or howe proue you that Sathan wrought first that there should be but one in euery Church Is it Sathās worke Sathan not the cause of one Byshop in one church that one Church should haue but one pastor This is straunge doctrine and far from an Apostolicall spirite contrary to the practise of the Apostles and of the Church euen from the beginning But séeing you haue so barely set it downe without any kynde of proofe I will passe it ouer by putting you to your proofe But yet tell me dyd Sathan stirre vp Timothie and Titus who were Byshops of one whole diocesse Did he stirre vp the other auncient fathers and godly Bishops of whome I haue spoken Whither will this slaunderous mouth reache whome will this venemous tongue spare if it speake so spitefully of such worthie Pastors Your collection of resistance that hath béene to such superioritie béeing grounded of the place that you neuer sawe nor red is rashe and vnaduised For if you had séene eyther that Epystle or those Canons you woulde or at the least you might haue learned another lesson Archbishops Patriarches c. were allowed by the Councell of Nice the godlyest and the most perfect Councell since the Apostles time that euer was And did Sathan rule there also and preuayle O that Arius were aliue to heare it These steppes whereof you make Sathan the authour and whereby you say the Bishop of Rome hath ascended into the Chayre of pestilence c. haue béene the best and most conuenient kinde of gouernment that euer was in the Church since the Apostles time approued and allowed by the best Councels and the next meanes to haue kept Antichrist out of his seate if in all places they had remayned in theyr full force and authoritie But this I may not passe ouer that you in effect confesse your kinde of gouernment by elders to haue ceased before the Councell of Nice and also one Bishop to haue béene ouer one whole Diocesse before that time in that you say that the childe of perdition was lifted vp by these degrées the last whereof was allowed in the Nicene Councell Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Page 96. Sect. 2. Hauing nowe shewed howe this Lordly estate of the Bishop began and vppon what a rotten grounde it is builded I come to shewe howe farre the Bishops in our tyme are for theyr pompe and outwarde statelinesse degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Io. Whitgifte A man woulde haue thought that you being so great an enimie to those degrées woulde not haue thus concluded vpon so small proofe and the same vtterly vntrue vsing onely for your grounde the Epistle of Pope Zacharie which maketh nothing for your purpose Now let vs sée how farre the Bishops of our tyme are for theyr pompe c. degenerated from the Bishops of elder tymes Chap. 5. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 96. Sect. 3. And here I call to remembrance that which was spoken of the poore estate of Basill and Theodorete and if M. Doctour will say as he doth indeede in a certaine place that then was a time of persecution and this is a time of peace it is easily answered that although Basill were vnder persecution yet Theodorete liued vnder good Emperours But that shall appeare better by the Canons which were rules giuen for the Bishops to frame themselues by Io. Whitgifte It is for lacke of other examples that you are constreyned to repeate these To the poorenesse of Theodorete I haue answered there may be as poore Bishops now as there was then and there might be as riche Bishops then as there are nowe It is not one or two examples that can proue the contrarie Chap. 5. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 1. In the 4. Councell of Carthage it is degreed that the Bishops shoulde haue a little house 14. Canon ▪ it calleth it hospitiolū ▪ 15. Canon neare vnto the Church what is this compared with so many fayre large houses and with the princely Palace of a Bishop And in the same Councell it is decreed that he shoulde haue the furniture and stuffe of his house after the common sort and that his table and dyet shoulde be poore and that he should get him estimation by faythfulnesse and good conuersation Io. Whitgifte In the. 52. and. 53. Canons of the same Councell Clearkes how learned so euer they be in Gods woorde are willed to get their liuing by some occupation or by husbandrie but I thinke you will not haue them so to do now at this time Wherefore you must cōsider the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church If God hath dealt now more bountifully with his Church in externall benefites if he hath put into the hearts of Christian Princes thus to deale with the ministers of the woorde and if this state and condition be necessary for this time and people why should you enuie it Ritches and fayre houses be no hinderances but helpes if they be vsed accordingly and commonly hypocrisie and pryde lieth hidde vnder the name of pouertie and simplicitie Chap. 5. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Page 97. Sect. 1. And in another Councell that the Bishops should (a) No suche thing in that place not giue themselues to feastes but be 5. Canon concil Tyronen content with a litle meate Let these Bishops be compared with oures whose chambers shine with gilte whose walles are hanged with clothes of Auris whose cupbordes are loden with plate whose tables and diets are furnished with multitude and diuersitie of dishes whose dayly dinners are feastes let them I say be compared together and they shall be founde so vnlike that if those old Bishops were aliue they would not know eche other For they would thinke that oures were Princes and ours would thinke that they were some hedge Priests not worthie of their acquaintaunce or fellowship Io. Whitgifte If you meane the first Tyronense Concilium there is no such thing to be found in the 5. Canon of it nor in the whole Councell The fifth Canon conteyneth a profitable admonition for you and such as you are for it forbiddeth vnder the payne of excōmunication that any beyng a Clearke should leaue of his calling and become a lay man If you meane the seconde Tyronense Concilium I make you the like answere Belike your collector hath deceyued you but what if it were so This onely might be gathered that vnlesse Bishops then had bene welthie there should not haue néeded a decrée against feasting If our Bishops should make the like now it would be thought they did it for sparing And I thinke that and such like Canons méete not onely for Bishops but for all states and degrées of men Riches and costly furniture bée no impediment to a godly man for doing
that hath bene of him and the triall that hath bene of you his experience and yours But what shoulde I compare together things so vnlike That M. Bucer is directly against you in this assertion of yours it dothe not appeare onely in these words of his but in others also which he speaketh to the like effect as in the. 4. to the Eph. as I haue before declared And again vpon the same chapter Bucer n. 4. Ephe. he saith The third part of discipline is obedience which is first to be rendred of al to the Bishop and Minister then of euery clearke to those that be in degree aboue him to suche as may helpe him to the well executing of his ministerie Last of all of Bishops to synodes and to their Metropolitane Byshops and to all other to whom a more ample charge of the churches is committed And in the same commentaries after that he hath proued by sundry examples apt reasons y t this superioritie among Ecclesiasticall persons is conuenient and profitable and shewed that these degrées in the Church Bishop Archbyshop Metropolitane Primate Patria ke be not onely most auncient but also necessarie he concludeth on this sort Bicause it is necessarie that euery one of the cleargie should Idem haue their rulers and gouernours the authoritie power vigilancie and seueritie of Bishops Archdeacons and all other by what name soeuer they be called to whome any portion of keping and gouernin the cleargie is committed should or ought to be restored least there be any in thys order out of rule and without gouernment Howe thinke you nowe of M. Bucers iudgement Is it not directly against you be not his wordes plaine Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 1. Your places quoted in the margent to proue that there ought to Scriptures wreasted to proue equalitie of Ministers be an equalitie of Ministers sounde nothing that waye 2. Cor. 10. vers 7. these be the wordes of the Apostle Looke ye on things after the appearance If any truste in him felfe that he is Christes let him consider this againe of himselfe that as he is Christes euen so are vve Christes Howe conclude you of these wordes your equalitie I promyse you it passeth my cunning to wring out of them any suche sense rather the contrary may be gathered oute of the wordes following whiche be these For though I shoulde boast somevvhat more of our authoritie vvhich the Lord. c. I should haue no shame M. Caluine expounding Caluine these wordes sayth on this sort It vvas for modestie that he ioyned him selfe to their number vvhome he did farre excell and yet he vvould not be so modest but that he vvould kepe his authoritie safe therefore he addeth that he spake lesse than of right he might haue done For he vvas not of the common sorte of ministers but one of the chiefe among the Apostles ▪ and Degrees of honour in the ministerie therefore he saith if I boaste more I nede not be ashamed for I haue good cause And a litle after Quamuis enim commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfsame office be common to all the Ministers of the vvorde yet there is degrees of honour Thus you see Caluine farre otherwise to gather of this place than you doe T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. And if M. Doctor delight thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holie ghoste to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluine doth openly mislike of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certaine which the holy ghost maketh common to mo And where as of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honoure in the ministerie Here he defendeth not the admonition but shifteth it or by auilling M. Doctour would gather an Archbishop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euange ste an Euangeliste aboue a Pastor a Pastor aboue a Doctor and he aboue an Elder that ruleth onely he neded neuer haue gone to the popishe Hierarchie to seke his diuersiti s of degrees ▪ which he might haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines wordes which sayth that Paule was one of the chiefe amongest the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an Archbishop amongst the bishops he should haue remembred that S. Paules chiefetie amōgst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoriti or dominion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest Io. Whitgifte I do not oppose mens authoritie to y e authoritie of y e holy ghost to the reasons which ar grounded out of the scripture but I oppose them to your authoritie and to your reasons who spurne against that order whiche the holie ghoste hath placed in the Churche most shamefully abuse the scripture to mainteine your errours an example wherof is this present text alledged by the Admonition which you passe ouer in silence condemning therby their leudenesse in abusing the same It is you and yours that abuse the name and authoritie of the holie ghoste it is you that wring and wreste the Scriptures vntollerably it is you that falsifie authorities of learned men corruptly alledge them It is you I say that depraue and discredit such writers as haue bene and be notable instrumentes in the churche of Christe and all this you do to maintaine your erroneous opinions and false doctrine wherewith you endeuour to subuerte this churche of Englande M. Caluines wordes be playne and they directly ouerthrowe your equalitie of ministers and shewe the fondnes of the Admonition in alledging that place of scripture to proue any such equalitie M. Caluines wordes be these Qu muis commune sit omnibu verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfe same office be common to all the ministers of the worde yet there are degrees of honor Which wordes disproue the equalitie of ministers by the admonition affirmed confirmed with this portion of scripture by M. Caluine here interpreted that is 2. Cor. 10. verse 7. If there were degrees of honour in the Apostles tyme among those which had idem 〈◊〉 the selfe same office as M. Caluine affirmeth why should there not be so now T. C. contra ie to himselfe likewise But will you sée howe vnlike you are vnto your selfe euen in these fewe lynes first you saye that M. Caluines meaning is that an Apostle is aboue an Euangeliste an Euangelist is aboue a Pastor c. and by and by after you confesse that there was chieftie euen among the Apostles but it consisted in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest To omitte these contrarieties of yours into the whiche the plainenesse of Master Caluin s wordes hath driuen you this inequalitie that you
y ◠same also was vnder the Bishop of the citie Quod si amplior erat ager qui sub eius episcopatu erat quà m vt sufficere omnibus episcopi munijs vbique possit per ipsum agrum designabantur certis locis presbyteri qui in minoribùs negotijs eius vices obirent eos vocabant borepiscopos quòd per ipsam prouinciam episcopum representabant M. Beza lib. conf cap. 7 calleth the names of Archbishops Bishops c. Holie names for thus he sayth That Pastors in proces of tyme were distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those whome they nowe call Curates that is such as be appoynted to euery Parishe was not in the respect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therfore concerning the office of preaching the word and administring the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixte Archebishops Bishops and Curates for all are bounde to feede their flocke with the same breade and therefore by one common name in the Scriptures they bee called Pastours and Bishops But what impudencie is there in those men meaning the Papistes to vse those holie names and therfore to glorie of the succession of the Apostles and true Bishops In the same chapter he maketh two kynds of degrées vsed in the Papistical Churche the one vnknowne to the Apostles to the primitine church the other taken out of the word of God and from the primitiue Church In this second order he placeth Archebishops Curates Can ns Seniors or Ministers Archedeacons Deanes Subdeacons Clearkes But what should I stand longer in this matter There is not one writer of credit y t denieth this superioritie to haue bin always among the clergie and these degrées to come euen from the best tyme of the Church since the Apostles and so be both most auncient and generall Wherfore I can not but compt suche as denie so manifest a truthe eyther vnlearned and vnskilful persons or else verie wranglers and men desirous of contention A briefe comparison betvvixt the Bishops of our tyme and the Bishops of the primitiue Churche Chap. 8 I Knowe that comparisons be odious neither would I vse them at this tyme but that I am thervnto as it wer compelled by the vncharitable dealing of T. C. who by comparing the Bishops of our time with the Bishops in the olde Churche hath soughte by that meanes to disgrace them if it were possible I may peraduenture in this point sée me to some to flatter but the true iudgement therof I leaue to him that knoweth the secretes of the heart In the meane tyme I will affirme nothing which is not euident to all those that be learned diuines and not ouer ruled with affection My compar ion shal consist in these thrée points Truthe of doctrine Honestie of lise and right vse of externall things Touching the fyrst that is truth of doctrine I shall not néed much to labour For I think T. C. and his adherents wil not denie but that the doctrin taught professed by our Bishops at this day is much more perfect and sounder than it commonly was in any age after the Apostles time For the most part of the auncientest Bishops were deceyued with that grosse opinion of a thousande yeares after the resurrection wherein Euse. lib. 3. cap. 39. 35. the kingdome of Christe should here remaine vpon earth The fautors whereof were called M llenarij Papias who liued in Polycarpus and Ignatius his tyme béeing Bishop of erusalem was the first author of this errour and almost all the moste auncient fat ers were infected with the same Cyprian and the whole Councel of Carthage erred in rebaptisatiō Cyprian himself To. con 1. Lib. epi. 2. ep 3. also was greatly ouerseene in making it a matter so necessarie in the celebration of the Lords Supper to haue water mingled with wyne which was no doubt at y ◠tyme cōmon to moe than to him but the other opinion which he confuteth of vsyng water only is more absurd and yet it had at that tyme patrones among the Bishops Howe greatly were almost all the Bishops learned writers of the greke church yea and the Latines also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merites of inuocation of Sainctes suche lyke Surely you are not able to recken in any age since the Apostles tyme any companie of Bishops that taught helde so sound perfect doctrine in all poynts as the Bishops of England do at this tyme. If you speake of Ceremonies of the syncere administration of the sacraments you shall finde the like difference for compare the cerenionies that Tertullian sapet lib. decoro mil. then to be vsed in the Churche about the Sacraments and otherwise or those that Basile reherseth Lib. de Sancto spi. or suche as we may reade to haue bin in S. Augustins tyme with those that we nowe reteine in this Churche and you can not but acknowledge that therin we are come to a far greater perfection I meane not to stande in particulars I thinke T. C. and his companions wil not contende with me in this poynt for if they doe it is but to maynteyncontention Seing then that in the truthe of doctrine which is the chief and principall point oure Bishops be not only comparable with the olde Bishops but in many degrées to be preferred before them we thinke there is tootoo great iniurie done vnto them and to this doctrine whiche they professe when as they are so odiously compared and so contemptuously intreated by T. C. and his Colleags 2 Touching honestie of life which is the second point I wil not say much I do not think but that therin they may be compared with the old Bishops also and in some points preferred euery age hath some imperfectiōs in it and the best men are most subiect to the slanderous tong Great contention ther was among the Bishops in the Councell of Nice insomuch that euen in the presence of the Emperour they ceased not to libell one against an other What bitternesse and cursing was there betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostome what affectionate dealyng of Theophilus agaynste the same Chrysostome what iarring betwixt Hierome and Augustine But I wil not prosecute this Men be they neuer so godly yet they be men the cōm n sorte of people when they waxe wearie of the worde of God truely preached then doe they begin to depraue the true and chiefe ministers of the same 3 For the third poynt that is the vse of external things if the ishops nowe haue more land liuing than Bishops had then it is the blessing of God vpon his church and it is commodious for the state and time If any man abuse himself therin let him be reformed let not his fault be made a pretence to cloke a minde desirous to spoyle I sée not how those lands and liuings can be imployed to more bene ite of y e churche cōmoditie of the
cōmon welth honor of the Prince than they be nowe in state and cōdition wherin they remain Bishops shal not now need to liue by pilling polling Amb. de dig sacerd August lib. 3. aduer Permenìa as it séemed they did in Cyprians tyme for he complaineth therof Ser. de lapsis Nor as some did in Ambrose or Augustins They haue God be thanked liuing sufficient with out any such vnlawfull meanes and I doubt not but if their expenses shall be compared with their predecessors it shall appeare that they be according to the proportion that God hath limitted vnto them But an eye dimmed with malice or bente to the spoyle can sée nothing that may hinder the desired purpose God roote out of the hartes of men such rauening affections and gréedie desires Of the Communion Booke Tract 9. The generall faultes examined vvhervvith the publike Seruice is charged by T. C. Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 102. Sect. 2. Before I come to speak of prayers I wil treat of the faults that arecomitted almost throughout the whole Lyturgie and publike Seruice of the Churche of Englande whereof one is that whiche is often obiected by the authors of the Admonition that the forme of it is taken from the Churche of Antichriste as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cutte and mangled as the moste of the prayers the maner of ministring the Sacramentes of mariage of burial Confirmation translated as it were worde for worde sauing that the grosse errours and manifest impieties be taken away For although the formes and ceremonies whiche they vsed were not vnlawfull and that they conteyned nothyng whiche is not agreable to the worde of God whiche I would they did not yet notwithstanding neyther the worde of God nor reason nor the examples of the eldest Churches both Iewish and Christian doe permit vs to vse the same formes and ceremonies beyng neyther commaunded of God neyther suche as there maye not as good as they and rather better be established Io. Whitgifte In these woords are conteined two false principles the one is that the forme and manner of prayer vsed in the Churche of England is taken from the churche of Antichrist the other that it is not lawful to vse the same formes of prayer and ceremonies that the Papists did this latter I haue already proued to be otherwise in the beginning Tract 7. cap. 5 diui 3. 4. c. where I spake of Ceremonies and intend hereafter to answere such arguments as shal be vsed to proue the contrarie the first wil appeare to be most vntrue being manifest that such things as we now vse in the booke of Common prayer though some of them haue ben vsed in the time of Papistrie were appointed in the church by godlie and learned men before the Pope was Antichrist or the Church of Rome greatly corrupted as the reading of the Epistle and gospell whiche is of verie long continuance in the Church euen whilest the church of Rome was as yet in the principall points Reading of gospels and epistles verie auncient of doctrine pure being also chosen places of scriptures apt for the time and moste to edifying which no honest heart and godly disposed person can discommende If in the administration of the sacraments celebration of mariage burying of the dead confirmation those thyngs that are good and profitable be reteyned and the grosse errours and Things bused maye be vsed imp eties being taken a waye manifest impieties taken away as you say they be why do you then on this sort trouble y e church for vsing that which is good refusing that which is euill Is Papistrie so able to infect the word of God godlie prayers and profitable Ceremonies that they may not be vsed in the Church reformed the errours and impieties being taken away Why doe we call our churches reformed Churches rather than newly builded or as it were wholly transformed but that we reteyne whatsoeuer we fynd to The churche is reformed not transformed be good refuse or reforme that which is euill But of these matters more is to be spoken as occasion is offered Hytherto you vse but woordes whiche haue no weyghte without good and sounde reasons Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 3. For the worde of God I haue shewed before both by the example of the Apostles conforming the Gentiles vnto the Iewes in their ceremonies not contrarywise the Iewes to the Gentiles and by that the wisedome of God hath thought it a good way to kepe his people from the infection of idolatrie and superstition to seuer them from idolaters by outwarde ceremonies and therfore hath forbidden them to doe things which are in themselues verie lawfull to be don Io. Whitgifte What you haue spoken in any place of your booke cōcerning this matter is there answered wher it is spokē but you haue not as yet to my remēbrāce any wher shewed y t God euer hath forbidden his people to do things in themselues very lawfull to be done Tract 7. cap. 5 bycause the same were vsed by Idolaters I haue before proued the contrary both by the manifest words of the scripture and by the testimonie of Saint Augustine and diuers other learned writers Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 102. Sect. 4. Now I will adde this further that when as the Lord was carefull to seuer them by ceremonies from other nations yet was he not so carefull to seuer them from any as from the Egyptians amongst whome they liued and from those nations which were next neighbours vnto them bycause from them was the greatest feare of infection Therefore by this constant and perpetuall wisedome which God vseth to kepe his people from idolatrie it followeth that the religion of God should not only in matter and substance but also as farre as may be informe and fashion differ from that of the idolaters and especially the Papists which are round about vs amongst vs. (*) An vnadu sed 〈◊〉 For in deede it were more safe for vs to conforme our indifferent ceremonies to the Turkes which are arre off than to the papists which are so neare Io. Whitgifte The Egyptians and Idolatrous gentiles neither worshipped nor preteuded to The Gētiles and Papists not like in all respects worship the God of Israell and therefore no maruell though in rites and ceremonies they were vtterly seuered from them but the Papists eyther worship or pretend to worship the same God which we do and therefore there is no suche cause in all pointes of rites and ceremonies to differ from them And it is most vntrue that The Iewes and the Gentiles in some respect agreed in ceremo ies God so seuered his people from the Egyptians or other nations néere adioyning that they had nothing common with them or no ceremonies like vnto theirs for they were like in many things touching the externall forme The Gentiles had
sacrifices and so had they The Gentiles in worshipping their Gods vsed externall pompe of garments of golden and siluer vessels and such like and so did they yea diuers learned men be of this iudgement that God did prescribe vnto the Israelites that solemne manner and forme of worshipping him by externall rites and ceremonies shortly after their returne out of Egypt that they being therewith not onely occupyed but also delighted should haue no desire to retourne into Egypt or to worship their Gods whome they had séene with great solemnitie of ceremonies and externall rites adored And therefore you ground your talke vpō false principles which you haue not proued but imagined Now if we may haue ceremonies common with them or like vnto them from whome we whollie differ in matter and substance of religion as we do from th Gentiles and from the Turkes muche more may we haue Ceremonies common with them or like vnto them from whome we do not wholly diff r in mat er and substance but in certaine materiall and substantiall points As for this your saying That it were better for vs to conforme our indifferent Ceremonies to the Turks which are farre off than to the Papists which are so neare I take it to be but spoken in a heate and that you will otherwise thinke when you haue better considered the matter the one being a professed enimie vnto Christ and the name of Christ the other pretending the contrary But to put you out of doubt we do not in any kinde of ceremonies conforme We conforme not our selues to the Papists in ceremonies Tit. 1. our selues to the Papists but vsing Christian libertie in externall thinges knowing that al things be cleane to those that be cleane such things as we find instituted by learned and godly men and profitable to the Church as perteyni g to e ifying or comelinesse and order though abused of the Papists we reteine in our Churches and restore to the right vse as our forefathers did the Temples of Idols turning Tract 7 cap 5 diuis 3. 4. them to Christian Churches and reuenewes consecrated to Idolls transposing them to find the ministers of the Church and such like as I haue declared in an other place Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103. Sect. 1. Common reason also doth teach that contraries are cured by their contraries now Christianitie and Antichristianitie the Gospell poperie be contraries therfore Antichristianitie must be cured not by it selfe but by that which is as much as may be contrary vnto it Therefore a medled and mingled estate of the order of the Gospell and the ceremonies of poperie is not the best way to banish poperie and therefore as to abolish the infection of false doctrine of the Papists it is necessary to establish a diuers doctrine and to abolish the tyrannie of the popish gouernment necessary to plant the discipline of Christ so to heale the infection that hath crepte into mens minds by reason of the popish order of seruice it is meete that the other order were put in place thereof Io. Whitgifte Contraries must be cured by contraries in all things wherein they be contrary Christianitie How contraries must be cured by contraries and Antichristianitie the Gospell and poperie be not in all things cōtrary touching outward professiō and therfore no necessitie of abādoning all things frō Christianitie that was vsed in Antichristianitie So much of the papistical doctrine as is contrary to the Gospell that kind of gouernment in the Popes Church that is repugnant to the word of God all such order of seruice or kind of prayer as is vngodly and superstitious is to be remoued and cured with the contrary but as they haue some truth in doctrine so haue they some lawfull kind of gouernment and good and godly prayers all which being restored to their owne puritie are to be reteyned for no abuse can so defile any thing that is good that the same thing may not be vsed the abuse being taken away And yet if you would speake the truth you cannot say but that the order of the popish The order of popish seruice cleane altered in this church seruice is cleane altered in this Church for what similituds hath the vulgar tong with a tong vnknowne What likelihoode is there betwixt the multitude of ceremonies vsed by the Papists and the fewnes of such as are now reteyned How much doth the simplicitie vsed in our seruice differ from the pompe and gorgeousnesse vsed in theirs How contrary is our communion to their Masse What diuersitie is there in the celebration of our sacraments and theirs To be short the differēce is as much as eyther the worde of God or the state and condition of the Churche requireth the which you might sée if you were disposed but as I haue sayd before Caeca malitia non videt apertissima Blind malice seeth not those things that are most manifest Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 103 Sect. 1. Philosophie which is nothing else but reason teacheth that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreame vnto vertue which is the meane that it is the best way to bring him as farre from that vice as may be and that it is safer and lesse harme for him to be led somewhat to farre than he should be suffered to remayne within the borders and confynes of that vice wherewith he i infected As if a man would bring a dronken man to sobrietie the best and neatest way is to cary him as farre from his excesse in drinke as may be and if a man coulde not keepe a meane it were better to fault in prescribing lesse than he should drinke than to faulte in giuing him more than he ought as we see to bring a sticke which is (*) A croked rule croked to be streight we do not only how it so farre vntill it come to be streight but we bend it so farre vntill we make it so croked of the other side as it was before of the first side to this end that at the last it may stand streight and as it were in the mid way betwene both the crokes which I do not therefore speake as though we ought to abolish one euill and hurtfull ceremonie for another but that I would shew how it is more daungerous for vs that haue bin plunged in the mire of Poperie to vse the ceremonies of it than of any other idolatrous and sperstitious seruice of God Io. Whitgifte The Replyer prescribeth a heathenish rule of retormation Rom. 3. Philosophie also teacheth that both the extreames be vices and therefore your rule dothe teache that a man must go from one vice to another if he will come to vertue whiche is a meane but Sainct Paule teacheth the contrary saying Non est faciendum malum vt inde veniat bonum VVe must not do euill that good may come thereof Wherefore as your rule is heathenish
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
(b) These examples proue not the purpose Noah which was a preacher vnto the olde worlde of the will of God was ordeyned also of God to make the Arke whiche was a Sacramente and seale of his preachyng touchyng the destruction of the worlde And (b) These examples proue not the purpose Abraham whom the Lorde would haue to be the Doctour of his churche whiche was then in his familie was also commaunded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision vnto his familie The (b) These examples proue not the purpose Priestes and Leuites whiche were appoynted to teache the people were also appoynted to sacrifice and to minister other sacramentes in the Church Lykewise the same Prophets which God stirred vp to preach he also ordeyned to confirme the same by signes Sacraments The (b) These examples proue not the purpose same may be also drawne throughout the new Testament as vnto euery of the twelue and afterwarde to the seuentie power was giuen bothe to preache the Gospell and also to confirme wyth signes and miracles whiche were seales of their Doctrine And (b) These examples proue not the purpose Sainct Paule by the commaundement that our Sauiour Christe gaue hym to preache vndertooke also to baptise although there were no expresse woordes that licenced him therevnto for hee knewe right well that it was the perpetuall ordinaunce of God that the same shoulde bee the ministers of the worde and Sacramentes Wherevpon it followeth that forasmuche as women maye not prcache the Gospell no not by the lawes of the realine that they ought not to minister Baptisme Io. Whitgifte My reason alleadged in my Answere to the Admonition why this place doth not make any necessarie conclusion agaynst the baptizyng by Women is not answered but there is a newe collection made of the same place whyche is of as great force as the other for you myght as well conclude thus Ergo Pastors maye not preache bycause Pastours bée not Apostles I speake of the Argumente not of the thyng For I woulde not haue the Scriptures abused to confirme no not a truthe least it make men the bolder to wreast them at their pleasure and for the confirming of errour M. Zuinglius in hys booke De Baptisme sayth that Christe did Zuinglius not in this place of Mathewe institute baptisme nor prescribe eyther tyme place or any other circumstance perteyning to the same I haue proued before that the administration of the Sacraments may bée committed to some to whome the publike preachyng of the worde is not committed and youre examples here alleadged doe not proue the contrarie excepte you wyll Tract 9. ca. 1. sect 15. haue vs to grounde poyntes of doctrine vppon bare examples whych if we should doe many inconueniences would followe yea euen baptizyng by women whiche you so greately mislyke A facto ad ius or à non facto ad non ius bée the vsuall reasons of the Anabaptistes but of no force The example of Noah helpeth you not except you will either allegorie or proue y t the minister of the worde may make Sacramēts bicause Noah made the Arke 〈◊〉 Arke can not be proprely termed a sacrament in y t signification y t ours be for it had no promise of eternal life annexed vnto it neither was it any seale of gods promise but a meanes to saue Noah and his family from perishing by the waters and a tipe and figure of the Church of Christ as you haue before confessed Pag. 63. Sect. 1 Your examples which follow although some of them be very vnapt for miracles be no sacraments neyther yet euery kind of signes and wonders may as examples T. C. omitting the purpose proueth that which is not denied shewe that the administration of the sacramentes was committed to suche as were preachers of the word But they cannot proue that it was onely committed vnto them and to no other It is not required of you to proue whither he that maye preach may also administer the sacraments but whither it be of necessitie that none shoulde be admitted to minister the sacraments except the same also be admitted to preach the contrary whereof I haue shewed before Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 80. Sect. 1. The second place you do alleadge is 1. Cor. 14. where Paule sayth it is a shame for Women to speake in the congregation Paule saith not it is a shame for women to speake at home in priuate houses for women may instruct their families yea and they may speake also in the Congregation in tyme of necessitie if there be none else there that can or wyll preache Chryste and hereof we haue examples T. C. Pag. 110. Lin. 13. Sect. 1. But M. Doctor riseth vp and saith that a woman in time of necessitie and where there is none other that eyther can or will preache maye preache the Gospell in the Church This is straunge doctrine and such as strengtheneth the Anabaptists hands and sauoureth stronger that ways than any one thing in all the Admonition which is so often condemned of Anabaptisme His first reason to proue it is that there are examples thereof When we alleadge the examples (a) How vayne this bragge is hath bin shewed Tract 3. of all the churches of the Apostles times to proue the election of the minister by the Churche and in other cases which are generall examples approued and executed by the Apostles contrary to no commaundement nor institution of God yea and as hath bin proued according to the commaundement of God M. Doctor gyueth vs our answer in a worde that examples proue not now that the question is to make good womens preaching in the Church examples I will not say of all churches but of no one Church only of a few singular persons not according to the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. commaundement of the word of God but cleane contrary to the prescript word of God I say now examples and such singular examples are good proofes and strong arguments Io. Whitgifte In what poynt doth he strengthen the Anabaptists If you coulde haue told I trust it should not haue bin kept in silence I haue charged the Authors of the Admonition with nothing but I haue shewed my author for it deale you with me in like manner and spare not otherwise your wordes do but sauoure choler Examples withoute What force is in exāples preceptes make no generall or necessary rule but they sometimes declare what was done and what may be done extraordinarily vpon like occasion and the same circumstances if they be commendable examples Women were the first that preached Christes resurrection A woman was the Math. 28. first that preached Christ in Samaria Io. 4. and yet vndoutedly none of these dyd Io. 20. contrary to the prescript word of God Women may not speake ordinarily in the Io. 4. congregation nor chalenge any suche function vnto themselues but vpon
from God so to doe As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God eyther vpon the Churche or comming towards it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they shoulde sanctifie a generall faste and proclayme ghnatsarah whiche signifieth 2. Ioel. a prohibition or forbydding of ordinary works is the same Hebrue worde wherwith those feast days are noted in the law wherin they should rest the reason of which comaundement of the Lorde was that as they abstayned that day as much as myght be conueniently from meate so they myght abstayne from their dayly workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the worde of God and humbling them selues in the congregation confessyng their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from his fearce wrath In this case the Churche hauing commaundement to make a holyday maye and oughte to doe it as the Churche whiche was in Babilon dyd during the time of their captiuitie But where it is destitute of a commaundemente it may not presume by any decree to restrayne that libertie which the Lorde hath giuen Io. Whitgifte When you are conuinced by manyfest Scripture as you are in this matter then you flye to your newly deuised distinctions as you do in this place saying The Lord whiche gaue this generall lawe might make as many exceptions as he thought good but to no purpose for you can not shewe in the whole Scripture where God hath made any lawe or ordinance agaynst his owne commaundement And surely in this poynte you haue greatly ouershotte your selfe béeing content rather to graunt contrarietie to be in the Scripture than to yéelde to a manyfest and knowne truthe The Church in appoynting holydayes dothe followe the example of God him selfe and therefore Tract 2. hath sufficient ground and warrant for hir doings and of the authoritie of the Church No mans libertie restreyned in such matters I haue spoken in an other place And I haue also a little before declared what kinde of libertie the Church may not restrayne and I adde that euery priuate mans consent is in the consent of y e Church as it is in the consent of the Parliament The Replyer bringeth authoritie against hym selfe therfore no mans libertie otherwise restrained than he hath cōsented vnto That in the seconde of the Prophet Ioell maketh agaynst you directly for it sheweth that vpon iuste occasion the Churche maye inhibite men from labour euen in the sire dayes notwithstanding it be sayde Sixe dayes thou shalte labour c. And to The Iewes aponynted to them selues holy dayes ▪ the intente no man shoulde doubte of the libertie of the Churche héerem or of the practise of this libertie let the nynthe chapter of Esther be perused and therein it will appeare that in remembrance of their great deliuerie from the treason of Haman the Iewes by the commaundement of Mordecai did solemnize and kéepe holydaye the fourtenth and fyftenth daye of the moneth Ader euery yeare But if neyther the ordinances of God himselfe nor the wordes of his Prophetes nor the examples of hys Apostles nor the practise of his Churche from the beginning wil take any place with you you are no man for me to deale with ¶ Of Sainctes dayes Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 120. Sect. vlt. Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holydays I come vnto the Apostles and other saincts dayes whiche are kepte wyth vs. And thoughe it were lawfull for the Churche to ordayne holydayes to our sauiour Christe or to the blessed Trinitie yet it is not therefore lawfull to institute holydayes to the Apostles and other Samctes or to their remembrance For althoughe I confesse as muche as you saye in the. 153. page that the Churche of Englande dothe not meane by this keeping of holydayes that the Saincts shoulde be honoured or as you alleage in 175. and 176. pages that with vs the Saincts are not prayed vnto or that it dothe propounde them as meritorious yet that is not inoughe For as we reason agaynst the Popishe purgatorie that it is therefore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any tyme for the dead (a) Argum. ab auth ritate nogatiue so may it be reasoned agaynst these holydayes ordeyned for the remēbrance of the Saincts that for so much as the olde people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holyday for y e remēbrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other howe holy or excellent soeuer they were nor the Apostles nor the Churches in their time neuer ▪ instituted any eyther to keepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the Uirgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them now and this attempte by the Churches whiche followed whiche haue not suche certayne and vndoubted interpreters of the will of God as the Prophetes and Apostles were whiche liued in those Churches is not without some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those things whiche the Primitiue Churche in the Apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God than they that followed them had durst not venter vpon Io. Whitgifte Purgatorie is made a matter of saluation or damnation as all other doctrines of the Popes be and therfore a negatiue reason suche as you vse is sufficient inoughe to improue it But holydayes in our Churche haue no suche necessitie ascribed vnto them onely they are thought very profitable to the edifying of Gods people and therefore suche negatiue reasons preuayle not agaynst them no more than they doe agaynst other constitutions of the Church perteyning to edifying order or comelynesse wherof there is no mention made in the worde of God And therefore nothing that is héere spoken by you can take any holde Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Neyther are they called by the name of any Sainct in any other Why y e name of Sainctes are giuen to our holidays respecte than that the Scriptures whiche that daye are read in the Churche be concerning that Sainct and conteyne eyther hys calling preaching persecution martyrdome or suche like T. C. Pag. 121. Sect. 1. Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hathe to cause men to thinke so of euery thing as it is named and therefore althoughe you saye in the. 175. page that in calling these holydayes the dayes of suche or suche a Saincte there is nothyng else inent but that the Scriptures whiche are that daye read concerne that Saincte and conteyne eyther his calling preaching persecution Martyrdome c. yet euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche For besides that the corrupte custome of Popery hathe carryed their myndes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the daye teacheth otherwyse For seeing that by the dayes dedicated
as vse to reade the scriptures and prayers to the people If you had sayde agaynst dumbe vnlearned ministers viewe these places you had sayde something For Reading ministers 1. Tim. 4. For reading ministers that is for reading the Scriptures publikely in the church by ministers view you these places 1. Tim. 4. Til I come giue attendance to readyng to exhortation to doctrine In the whiche wordes as Musculus sayeth Exprimit ordinem Ecclesiasticum quo primùm ex Musculus sacris Scripturis aliquid legebatur deinde exhortatio doctrina subijciebatur He expresseth the Ecclesiasticall order vvherein firste there is some thing reade out of the Scriptures then follovveth exhortation and doctrine Luke 4. Where wee learne that Christe beyng at Nazareth as his custome Christe read the scripture was wente into the Sinagogue on the Saboth day and stoode vp to reade c. And yet you saye Reading is not feedyng but it is as euill as playing Pag. 163 Lin. 2. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. vpon a stage and vvorse to for players yet learne theyr partes vvithout booke and these a many of them can scarcely reade vvithin booke That reading is feedyng Musculus giueth these reasons Firste Reading is feeding Musculus bycause it maketh the people experte and cunning in the Scriptures so that they can not be so easily deceyued with false teachers And therefore Iosephus Lib. 2. contra Appion speakyng of this commoditie of hauing the Scriptures read sayeth on this sorte In vnaquaque septimana ad legem audiendam conueniunt vniuersi Nostrorum quilibet de legibus interrogatus facilius quam nomen suum recitat vniuersas quippe mox à primo sensu discentes in animo velut inscriptas habemus Euery vveeke all the people come togither to heare the Lavve Euery one of vs demaunded any question of the lavve can ansvvere readily as he can tell his ovvne name For vvee learnyng the lavve euen from our youth haue it as it vvere vvritten in our memorie Secondly the publike reading of the Scripture is good for such as can not reade themselues to suche likewise as can reade but yet haue not the bookes of the holy Scripture at home in their houses Thirdly it maketh the people better to vnderstande the Sermons preached vnto them bycause through the continuall hearing of the Scriptures read they be acquainted with the wordes and phrases of the same Last of all it may be that some men be more edified by the simple reading of the scriptures than by sermons Admonition By this booke bare reading is (q) 1. Cor. 3. 5. good tilling and single seruice saying is excellent (r) 1. Cor. 3. 9. buylding and he is shepherde good inough that can as popish Priestes could out of their Portuis say fayrely their diuine seruice Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 165. Sect. vlt. Pag. 166. Here is much a do about bare reading and single seruice saying by like you lacke matter to make out your volume when you iterate one thing so often I tell you agayne no honest godly or learned man No godly mā 〈◊〉 reading in the churche euer hither to did or will disallow readyng of the Scriptures in the Churche or a prescript order of Common prayers Shew any learned mans iudgement to the contrary shewe the example of any Christian Churche of antiquitie or of any late reformed Churche wherein there is not both reading of the Scriptures in the publike congregation and a prescripte order of Common prayers Nay shewe any one sillable in the Scriptures to the contrary As for your places alleaged out of the 1. Corinth 3. vers 5. And 1. Corinth 3. vers 9 The one to proue that by the booke bare readyng is good tilling the other that by the same booke single seruice saying is excellent buyldyng c. They shewe your intollerable audacitie I will terme it no worse in abusing the Scriptures In that place to the Corinthes the Apostle sayeth thus VVho is Paule then vvho is Apollos 1. Cor. 3. But the mynisters by vvhomeyee beleeued and as the Lorde gaue to euery man Howe can you gather hereof that by the Communion booke bare readyng is good tilling or how can you hereof conclude that which I thinke you meane that the sole and onely reading of the Scriptures is not tilling or that the Scriptures may not be read in the open congregation by the Minister what s quele call you this Paule and Apollos be the ministers by whome you Unskilfull Logicians beleeued as the Lord gaue to euery man Therefore the readyng of the Scriptures edifie not or it is not lawfull for them to be read in the Churche by the Minister You come to soone from the vniuersitie to haue any great skill in Logike but belyke bycause there is mention made of tylling in the nexte verse of that chapter therefore you quote it in the margent missing onely the lyne for this is your vsuall manner if you haue but one worde in a texte whiche you vse in your booke you quote the place as though it made for your purpose This is neyther playne nor wise dealyng The examples of suche as haue bene conuerted by readyng of Pag. 168. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Many conuerted by hearing the scriptures read the Scriptures and hearyng of them read be infinite I knowe not wherevnto this your bitternesse agaynst readyng of the Scripture tendeth excepte it be to confirme an other opinion of the Papistes touching the obscuritie and darkenesse of the Scripture or diuerse senses and vnderstanding of the same If you ioyne with them in that also then I haue to say vnto you with S. Augustine In his quae apertè in Scripturis posita sunt inueniuntur illa omnia quae cōtinent sidē moresque viuēdi August In those things that be playne and manifest in the Scriptures are all such things conteyned vvhich perteyne to fayth and good manners And with Hierom. in Psalme 86. Sicut scripserunt Apostoli sic ipse Dominus hoc est per Euangelia Hierome sua locutus est vt non pauci intelligerent sed vt omnes Plato scripsit in scriptura sed non scripsit populo sed paucis vix enim intelligunt tres homines Isti verò hoc est principes E clesiae principes Christi non scripserunt paucis sed vniuerso populo As the Apostles vvrite so did the Lorde that is he spake by his Gospels not that a fevve but that all might vnderstand Plato vvritte but he vvritte to fevv not to the people for scarse three do vnderstand him these that is the Apostles vvritte not to fevv but to the vvhole people But I thinke you doubt not of this matter If the readyng of the scriptures edifie not what needed Chrysostome Chrysostome exhorteth the people to get Bibles writing vpon the third to the Coloss. so earnestly exhorte the people to get them Bibles or at the least the new
Matth. 5. 6. 7. If thou bring thy gifte to the alter c. Agree with thine aduersarie quickly c. It is vsuall in all exhortations and it is a maner of speaking that giueth euery man occasion to apply that vnto him selfe whiche is spoken Neither doe I héerein pinc e at our sauiour Christes action as you surmise for he spake generally to them all and therefore vsed that forme of words which was most conuenient for that purpose Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision Admonition The eyghte They vsed no other words but suche as Christ left we borrowe from Papistes the body of our Lorde Iesus Christ which was giuen for the. c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 101. Sect. 2. 3. From whence soeuer these words were borrowed they were well Of the words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christ. c. borrowed for it is a godly prayer and an apte application of that sacrament and putteth the Communicants in minde of the effecte of Christes passion exhibited vnto them by that sacrament and sealed with the same if it be worthily receyued It maketh no matter from whome we receyue any thing so it be godly profitable and consonant to the scriptures But I pray you tell vs what Pope inuented these words The body of our Lorde Iesus Christe c Admonition The ninth They had no Gloria in excelsis in the ministerie of the sacrament then for it was put f Telesphorus in anno 130. to afterwarde We haue nowe Ansvvere Pag. 101. Sect. 5. Pag. 102. Sect. 1. It is the common consent of ecclesiasticall hystories that the Apostles Of Gloria in excelsis dyd celebrate the Lords supper with the Lords prayer and yet we doe not reade that Christe dyd so You also teache that the The Apostles celebrated the Lords supper with y e Lords prayer supper ought not to be ministred without a sermon and in the ministration thereof you vse diuers prayers and other orders whiche Christe vsed not Can you espie a mote if it be a mote as it is not in an other mans eye and can you not perceyue a beame to be in your owne There is nothing conteyned in Gloria in excelsis but the same is taken out of the scriptures and to be vsed of all true Christians Telesphorus whome you note in the margent to haue added to the Telesphorus a good Bishop supper of the Lorde Gloria in excelsis in the yere of the Lorde 130. was a good Bishop and the Church of Rome was as yet pure in doctrine and vnspotted with heresie Io. Whitgifte No answere to one whit of all this Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision Admonition The tenth They tooke it with conscience we with custome Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 3. 4. This is but your presumptuous and arrogant iudgement who dare take vpon you to giue this generall sentence so generally vpon this whole Churche of Englande for you make no exception but set vs ad oppositum to them If you say some take it without conscience I thinke you say truely and so did some of them as Iudas But if you say all or the moste part you go beyonde your commission and make your selues Iudges of other mens consciēces contrary to the rule of Christ. Mat. 7. Luke 6. and of Paule Rom. 2. and. 14. 1. Cor. 4. and of Iames. 4. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 3. When as many receyue they know not what some other without any examination eyther of thē selues or by others howe they come with what fayth in Christ with what loue towards their brethren I see not agaynst what rule of our fauiour Christ it is or what rashe iudgement to say that they come rather of custome than of conscience when neyther they speake generally of all nor singularly of any one particular person Io. Whitgifte Generally to charge the whole Churche with that which is but the faulte of some and thus boldely to enter into many mens consciences must néedes be bothe lacke of great discretion and also agaynst those rules of Scripture that I haue quoted in my Answere to the Admonition ¶ Of shutting men from the Communion and compelling to communicate Chap. 2. the first Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They shut men by reason of their g 1. Co. 5. 11. sinnes from the Lords supper we thrust them in their sinne to the Lords supper Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 102. Sect. 6. 7. The place that you alleage out of the fifte chapter of the fyrst to the Corinthians whiche is this But novve I haue vvritten vnto you that you companie not togither if any that is called a brother be a fornicatour c. dothe not particularly touche the secluding of men by reason of their sinnes from the Communion but generally prohibiteth true Christians to haue any familiaritie or frendship with any suche notorious offendour If you were not with malice blynded you mighte easily vnderstande that by the order and rules of this Church of Englande all notorious and knowne offendours euen suche as S. Paule heere The Admonito gratify the Papists speaketh of are secluded from the Lordes supper But peraduenture your meaning is that no man should be compelled to the Communion at any time wherein you greatly gratifie the Papistes and shewe your selfe a good patrone of theirs When you shewe any reason why men may not be compelled to come to the Communion then you shall be answered In the meane time you are worthy of your fee. T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. vlt. If the place of the. 5. to the Corinth do forbid that we should haue any familiaritie with notorious offenders it doth much more forbid that they should be receyued to the Communion Io. Whitgifte I will Answere you as M. Caluine answered the Anabaptists obiecting the same Calu aduersus Anabapt place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 5. in effect to the same ende and purpose that the Authors of the Admonition doe vsing the like collection that you doe in this place But wheras sayth he Paule doth forbid to eate with those that lyue dissolutely that perteyneth to priuate conuersation not to the publike Communion but some will saye if it be not lawfull for a Christian man to keepe company with him that is wicked for corporall meate much lesse may he receyue with them the Lords bread I answere that it is in our power whether we will be familiarly conuersant with the wicked or no and therefore euery one ought to flye from them But it is not so in our power to receyue the Communion or not to receyue it therefore the reason is not all one we must therfore note that if the Churche do tollerate and suffer an vnworthy man he shall do well that knowing him to be suche a one doth abstayne from his companie as muche as he can so that his dooing make no schisme or separation in the Churche This I speake onely touching the true vnderstanding of that place
that is to compell vsed agaynst suche as refuse to communicate I thinke in déede the especiall quarell is their owne bicause they haue separated them selues from the Churche and woulde not be constrayned to communicate with vs but they make their doctrine generall therby to cloke their intent Wherefore whether they do it to gratifie the Papists or no it may be doubted but certayne it is that the Papists could not haue had better Proctours Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 133 Lin. 37. As for the fee that M. Doctor saythe wee be worthy of for shewing our selues as he fayth so good patrons of the Pap stes he hathe giuen vs well to vnderstande what it shoulde be if he were the paymaster but as we serue the Lorde in this worke so we looke for rewarde at his hande not fearing but that the Lorde will in the ende giue suche blessing vnto our labours as we shall not neede greatly to eare at the handes of those whiche God hath placed in authoritie the rewarde which you do so often call for Io. Whitgifte Surely that ée you should looke for at my hands that it behoueth a Christiā man so giue vnto suche as continue in disturbing the Churche and yet peraduenture shoulde it not be by the twentie parte so sharpe as the fee that you woulde bestowe vpon me if it were in your power Howbeit I commit my selfe to him by whome hitherto I haue béene protected notwithstanding all the deuises and practises of slaunderous tongues and hatefull countenances and I nothing doubte but that in the ende God will turne all to his glory and profite of the Churche ¶ Of playne and simple ministring and receyuing of the Communion Chap. 3. Admonition The twelfth They ministred the Sacraments playnely we pompeously with singing pyping surplesse and cope wearing The thirtenth They simply as they h Co. 11 23 receyued it from the Lorde We sinfully mixed with mans inuentions and deuises Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 103. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. This is a very slender reason to proue that the sacrament of the Supper is not sincerely ministred bicause there is singing pyping surplesse and Cope when you shewe your reasons agaynst that pompe whiche is nowe vsed in the celebration of that Sacrament you shall heare what I haue to saye in defense of the same I thinke that there is nothing vsed in the administration thereof that dothe in any respecte contaminate it or make it impure As for pyping it is not prescribed to be vsed at the Communion by any rule that I knowe Synging I am sure you doe not disallowe beeing vsed Singing vsed in al reformed Churches in all reformed Churches and an arte allowed in Scriptures and vsed in praysing of God by Dauid Of Surplesse and Cope I haue spoken before wyl speake more hereafter as occasionis ministred There is no suche inuentions or deuises of man mixed wyth the Supper of the Lorde as can make it sinfull beeing all perteyning to edifying and to good decent order and nothing there appoynted to be done contrarie or not agreable to the Scriptures Caluine Caluine him selfe sayth in his Institutions Lib. 4. Cap. 10. That those thynges vvhiche be partes of decencie commended vnto vs by the Apostle though Decent orders be Gods traditions they be prescribed by man yet are they Gods traditions and not mans as kneeling at solemne prayer and suche like The Supper it selfe in all poynts of any moment is ministred nowe in this Churche of Englande euen as Christ deliuered it as the Apostles vsed and as the Primitiue Churche continued the same These be all the reasons you vse to proue that the Sacrament of the Supper is not rightly and sincerely ministred wherof some be impious some ridiculous and all of them vnworthy any confutation T. C. Pag. 133. Sect. 1. 2. Unto that whyche is conteyned in the two next sections in the. 103. and a peece of the. 104. pages I haue answered before partly particularly partly when I noted the general faults of the Seruice booke especially seeing that M. Doctor wyll not defende the pyping and Organes nor no other synging than is vsed in the re rmed Churches which is in the synging of two Psalmes one in the beginning and an other in the ending in a playne tune easy both to be song of those whych haue no arte in singing and vnderstanded of those whych bicause they can not reade can not sing with the rest of the Churche For that whiche is in the. 105. page and concerneth the surplesse I haue answered before Io. Whitgifte To the moste of it you haue not answered any where and the substance of it you The sacraments purely ministred haue left vntouched that is whether these things be of that weight or no that in any respect they can contaminate the sacramentes or make them impure as they b nowe vsed Neyther haue you proued or can proue that the sacraments are not ministred in this Church of Englande in all poyntes of any moment euen as Christ deliuered them the Apostles vsed them the primitiue Oecolamp in Epist. apud Gastium li. 2. de erro Catabaptist Churche continued them Touching singing piping as you cal it surplesse cope wearing I answere with Oecolampadius These things be free vnto Christians whiche holy or godly Bishops may eyther adde if it seeme vnto them conuenient and profitable for the people or take away if there be any abuse as the time requireth euen as they may also doe in other ceremonies VVe haue made no contention for externall things those things that be indifferent are not repugnant to the worde of God I haue hearde no reasons as yet to improue the manner of singing vsed in this The originall cause of the pryde of the Romishe churche Churche of England neyther do I say that I allow no other singing than is vsed in other reformed Churches For I woulde not haue any Churche to arrogate that perfection vnto it selfe that it should thinke all other Churches to be bounde vnto it it was the originall cause of the pryde of the Churche of Rome I haue onely sayde that other reformed Churches allow singing which is true ¶ Of matters touching Baptisme Tract 16. Of Interrogatories ministred to infants Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition And as for baptisme it was inough with them if they i Act. 8. 35. 36. 37. Act. 10. 47. had water and the partie to be baptised fayth and the Minister to preach the worde and minister the Sacramentes Nowe we must haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Adrian Interrogatories ministred to the Intant Godfathers and Godmothers brought in by Higinus holy fontes inuented by Pope Pius crossing and such like peeces of Poperie which the Church of God in the Apostles tyme neuer knew and therefore not to be vsed nay which we are sure of were and are mans deuises brought in long after the
seyng Esau himselfe receyued the signe of the couenant notwithstanding he was before reiected Rom. 9. And that his posteritie were not so farre estraunged from the people of God as those that neuer were in the Churche it may appeare by that which is written in Deutronomie where the Israelites are willed to acknowledge them for their Deut. 23. vers 7. 8. The papistes ly e o the 〈◊〉 v der Ieroboani c. Brethren and to admitte their children in the thirde Generation into the congregation of the Lorde And yet are not the Papistes like vnto Ismael and Esau but rather the same with the Israelites vnder Ieroboam c. for as they professed the lawe of Moses had circumcision and were not in all poyntes straunge from the fayth of the Iewes but yet ioyned therevnto Idolatrie and the false worshipping of God euen so the Papistes pretende the lawe of God vse the Sacramentes professe Christianitie and are not in all poyntes straunge from Christian fayth but yet haue corrupted the same with idolatrous worshipping and diuerse other kindes of superstition and errours Therefore sayeth M. Beza very well in the wordes before recited Beza Epist. 10. Papismus est Ecclesiae Christianae aberratio Papisme is the erring of the Christian Churche And Ecclesia est velut immersa in Papatu quod de Turcis dici nullo modo potest qui nunquà m Cbristo nomen dederunt the Churche is as it were couered or drowned in Papisme whiche can by no meanes be sayde of Turkes whiche neuer gaue their names to Christe or professed Christianitie Wherefore if you had made a right comparison you should not haue compared them to Ismaell and Esau but to the reuolting Israelites as M. Martyr dothe saying thus expresly Quales olim Israelitae c. Such are the Martyr in 3. cap. 1. Reg. Papistes at this day if they be compared with the professours of the Gospell as were the Israelites in respect of the Iewes But full well you knewe that in so doing your errour would soone haue bene espied for though the Israelites were separated from the true Churche yet were not their children cut of from the couenaunt or debarred from the signe thereof The poyson which you say we nowe see and that lieth hid vnder these woordes is The poyson that is hidde in the Repliers doctrine the debarring of children from Baptisme for their parentes offences beyng baptised and rebaptisation Both which you do in more playne manner affirme than the Admonition doth and therefore for triacle to cure these venemous diseases I sende you to the learned workes of S. August Contra epist. Parmeniani de Baptis contra Donatistas of M. Bullinger Zuinglius Caluine and others which haue written against these poysoned poynts of the Anabaptistes and Donatistes ¶ Of the Seigniorie or gouernment by Seniors Tract 17. VVhether there vvere such as the Admonition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 138. Sect. 1. As though M. Doctor were at vtter defiaunce with all good order and methode of writing Of Seniors that which was giuen him orderly by the Admonition he hath turned vpsidedowne For where the Admonition speaketh first of the Elders then of that which is annexed vnto them which is the discipline whereof excommunication is a part considering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it M. Doctor hath turned it cleane cōtrary and first speaketh of excommunication and then of the Elders I will therfore that the reader may the easelier vnderstand that which is sayd folow the order of the Admonition and first of all speake of the Elders or Seniors which ought to be in the Churche and in speaking of them I muste call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before that is of those which haue care and gouerne the whole congregation some there be which do bothe teach the worde and gouerne also some which do not teache but onely gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment vnto those which do teache This diuision is moste manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe where he sayeth the Elders 1. Tim. 5. which rule well are worthy of double honour and especially those whiche labour in the worde and doctrine where he maketh by playne and expresse wordes two sortes of Elders the one whiche doth both gouerne and teache the other which gouerneth onely These therefore are the Seniors which are meant whose office is in helping the Pastor or Bishop in the gouernment of that particular Churche where they be placed Pastors and Elders Io. Whitgifte It is no rare matter in handling any thing first to entreate of that which is natura posterius and we sée it commonly so vsed by Logicians who firste treate of that parte which is called Iudicium then of the other which is called Inuentio notwithstanding Inuentio in nature is before Iudicium But I will not spende incke and paper in answering so vayne a cauillation The truth is that I in mine Answere follow the order of the Admonition For I proue that it was not the office of those Seniors to gouerne the Church c. bycause they had nothing to do with excōmunication being the chiefest discipline in the Church seing the execution therof was committed to the Minister of the worde onely So that I first take away authoritie frō their Seniors then answere the places which they abuse for the establishing of their authoritie My woordes be these What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane and Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline but all this is from the purpose Your diuision of Seniors though I know that it hath learned Patrones yet do I not vnderstande howe it agreeth with the woorde of God for if we consider the writinges of the Apostles it will euidently appeare that Presbyter is vsually taken for Episcopus or Minister or Pastor Presbyter vsually taken for a minister 1. Pet. 5. Act. 20. Tit. 1. as 1. Pet. 5. Presbyteros qui inter vos sunt bortor qui sum ipse Presbyter c. pascite c. The Elders which are among you I besech which am my selfe also an Elder c Feede the the flocke c. And in the Act. S. Paule calleth the same men Seniors and Bishops and by Seniors meaneth none other than Bishops and Pastors as it is euident in that place Likewise ad Titum 1. he sayeth that Titus was lefte at Creta vt constituat opidatim presbyteros That he should appoynt Elders in euery citie And declaring what qualities they ought to haue he addeth Oportet Episcopum immunem esse à crimine c. A Bishop must be vnreproueable c. Whereby it is manifest that he taketh them bothe for one The onely place that hath any shewe for the proofe of your distinction is that Two kindes of Presbyteri 1. Tim. 5. 1. Tim. 5. Presbyteri
if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
person that is called to a lawful and a publike function as he did vpon Saule yet doth he not alway so God doth not of necessitie tye his graces to God bestoa weth his gifts by meanes offices for as he in the beginning of his churche miraculously bestowed his giftes so doth he now leaue the same by outwarde meanes in parte to be obteyned as by education learning instruction reading studying c. which meanes being neglected God doth of his iustice permitte euill Magistrates and officers which he also sometymes doth for the offences of the people as may be séene in the most parte of the kings of Iuda and of Ierusalem and almost in all christian princes and gouernours vnder the Popes tyrannie For I suppose you meane such giftes as be profitable for the Churche Surely if this were true that you here so boldly withoute proofe affirme then should it not much skill what kind of men wer chosen to be either Pastors or Magistrates for howsoeuer they were before furnished with gifts yet when they be once The absurditie of the R plye called God will miraculously poure vpon them gifts necessary though they be the rudest and ignorantest men in a whole countrey Is not this to boast of the spirit as the Anabaptists do but I thinke the Reader vnderstandeth that God now worketh by ord narie meanes not by miracles And though it be certaine that God dothe endue magistrates such as feare him with singular gifts yet doth he it by meanes as is said and it is not at all times so nor in all persons but whē where and in whome it pleaseth him Therefore to ground any generall doctrine vpon singular examples or to stablish an externall kind of gouernment vpon Gods inward and secret working to bind God vnto that of necessitie that he doth bestow of grace and mercy to make that common to al which he of his infinite wisedome bestoweth vpon some is not the part of a skilfull diuine But to let all this passe you do still petere principium and take that as graunted which you cannot proue that is that the office of Seniors is an office established in the Church by the commaundement of God and not to be altered whiche I for my part can neuer graunt vnto you except you haue more pithie reasons to proue it than any that you haue as yet vttered Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 26. Sect. 1. 2. It is true that we ought to be obedient vnto the ciuill magistrate which gouerneth the church of God in that office which is committed vnto him and according to that callyng But it muste be remembred that 〈◊〉 magistrates must gouerns it according to the rules of God prescribed in his worde and that as they are nourises so they be seruantes vnto the churche and as they rule in the churche so they must remember to subiect themselues vnto the church to submit their scepters to throwe downe their crownes before the churche yea as the prophet speaketh to licke Esay 49. the dust of the feete of the churche Wherin I meane not that the church doth eyther wryng the scepters oute of princes handes or taketh theyr crownes from their heades or that it requyreth princes to licke the dust of her feete as the pope vnder this pretence hath done but I meane as the prophete meaneth that what soeuer magnificence or excellencie or pompe is eyther in them or in their estates and common wealthes whiche dothe not agree with the simplicitie and in the iudgement of the world poore and contemptible estate of the Church that that they will be content to lay downe And here commeth to my minde that wherewith the worlde is nowe dec iued and wherewith M. Doctor goeth about both to deceyue himselfe others too in that he thinketh that the Church must be framed according to the common wealth and the Church gouernment according to the uill gouernment (*) A dangerous doctrine which is as much to say as if a man should fashion his house according to his hangings when as indeede it is cleane contrary that as the hangings are made fit for the house so the common wealth must be made to agree with the Churche and the gouernmente thereof with hir gouernment For as the house is before the hangings and therefore the hangings which come after must be framed to the house which was before so the Churche being before there was y common wealth and the common wealth comming after must be fashioned and made suteable vnto the Church Otherwise God is made to giue place to men heauen to earth and religion is made as it were a rule of Lesbia to be applyed vnto any estate of common wealth whatsoeuer Seing (*) An obscu e and deformed argument that good men that is to say the Church are as it were the foundation of the world it is meete that the common wealth which is builded vpon that foundation should be framed according to the Churche and therefore those voyces ought not to be heard this order will not agree with our common wealth that law of God is not for our state this forme of gouernment wil not match with the pollicie of this realme Io. Whitgifte These words would be well considered for they conteine the ouerthrow of the The ouerthrow of the princes autho ritie conteined in the Reply princes authoritie both in ecclesiasticall and ciuil matters But I will only giue a breefe note of them in this place meaning to set foorth this matter more at large elsewhere When he saith that the ciuill magistrate must gouerne according to his calling and according to the rules of God prescribed in his word c. although the wordes be true et if you marke vpon what occasion they be spoken you shall perceiue the venome that lyeth hid vnder them for he doth thereby insinuate that the ciuill Magistrate may not intermedle with the office of the Senior that is with ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction for he taketh Seniors to be the officers appointed by God for that purpose which is to be reaue the ciuill Magistrate of his authoritie and to giue that to Seniors whiche the Pope vnder the like pretence doth arrogate vnto himselfe And therefore w ll and truly sayth M. Gualter in the place before recited Those men meaning suche as Gualter call for Seniors when they haue a Christian Magistrate do distinguish betweene the Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in respect of the punishmente of sinnes and the discipline of manners But this distinction is taken out of the Popes shoppe and in the holy scriptures it is no where to be found For there is the same reason of the magistrate in the new Testament that was in times past in the old for so much as Christ hathe sayde that he came not to breake the law but to fulfill it But in times past the Iudges and kings had power to punish those that
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
by that which I haue here already spoken Yet would I not haue any man to thinke that I condemne any churches where this gouernment is lawfully without daunger receyued onely I haue regarde to whole kingdomes especially this Realme where it cannot but be daungerous ¶ That there is no one certaine kinde of Gouernment in the Church which must of necessitie be perpetually obserued Chap. 4. I know it wil be obiected that y e ordinaūce of God must take place whatsoeuer incōueniēces follow that this kinde of gouernmēt is the ordinance of God therfore may not for any respect be omitted But I haue denied sufficiētly declared before y t this kind of Gouernment is no where in scripture cōmaūded that it neither is nor can be perpetuall And although I haue sufficiently proued this in one or two places before the contrary is yet vnproued as I had occasion to speake of it yet I trust it shall not be grieuous to the Reader if in a worde or two I here knit vp the matter First I affirme that there is not one sentence in the whole scripture wherevpō y e 1. No commaundement hereof in scripture perpetuitie or the necessitie of this kinde of gouernment may be grounded For the place in 1. Tim. 5. doth neither cōmaunde any such kinde of gouernment nor prescribe any forme or manner of it besides the place is doubtfull diuersly expounded and therfore no such perpetual rule can be gathered of it Moreouer y e Apostle only in that place sheweth that such as rule wel are worthie of double honour c. so that I maruaile how any man can of those wordes conclude either such a Seigniorie as now is Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision imagined or any perpetuitie of it But of this place I haue spoken before Secondly it is wel know that the manner forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles 2. The gouernment in the Apostles time cannot nowe be exercised time expressed in the scriptures neither is now nor cā or ought to be obserued either touching the persons or the functions for we haue neither Apostles Prophets workers of miracles giftes of healing diuersitie of tounges widowes or such like all which perteyned to the gouernment of the Church in the Apostles time and were partes of it as appeareth ▪ 1. Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1. Tim. 5. And seing that the Church is not boūd to this forme so plainly expressed in these places of scripture I see not how you can binde it to the selfe same forme of gouernment vsed in the Apostles time Thirdly this worde gubernationes mentioned 1. Cor. 12. whervpon you would groūd 3. The worde gubernationes implieth not the Seigniorie but by coniecture your Seigniorie may as some learned men think signifie any kind of gouernment cuē the ciuil Magistrate Certayne it is that only by méere coniectures it is drawne to signifie this new deuised Seigniorie therfore cannot inferre any necessary cōclusiō Furthermore it is by the spirite of God placed among those functions y t be temporall and by the iudgement of all learned men ceased for thus the Apostle sayeth Deinde potestates deinde dona sanationum opitulationes gubernationes genera linguarum now it were 1. Cor. 12. a very straunge matter that all the rest should be temporall and onely gubernationes perpetuall sure I am that the argument which so concludeth may easily be denied and by no probabilitie proued Fourthly we sée manifestly that in sundrie poynts the gouernment of y e Church 4. The Apostolicall gouernment hath of necessitie bene altered vsed in the Apostles time is and hath bene of necessitie altered that it neither may nor can be reuoked whereby it is playne that any one certayne forme or kinde of externall gouernment perpetually to be obserued is no where in the Scripture prescribed to the Churche but the charge thereof is left to the Christian Magistrate so that nothing be done contrarie to the woorde of God This is theopinion of the best writers neyther do I know any learned man of a 5. The generall opinion of the best writers Musculus loc Com. tit de Magist. contrarie iudgement M. Musculus speaking of those Seniors sayth that they were vsed in those Churches only that were destitute of Christian Magistrates which haue the chieftie and power c. not only in prophane but in diuine matters And after answering an obiection of 1. Cor. 6. he sayeth that we must needes distinguish betwene the state of the Church in those dayes and that whichis now I haue before declared M. Gualters iudgement of this matter in his Cōmentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. And vpō the. 11. chapt Gualter hom 56. in 1. Cor. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth thus VVherefore as concerning the doctrine of fayth and saluation we acknowledge no traditions of the Apostles but those whiche are conteyned in the creede c. But as concerning the externall forme of the Churche wee denie not that they haue taught euery where many thinges of the order of Ecclesiastical assemblies of the administration of Sacraments and of the whole gouernment of the Churche VVhereof bicause there cannot be one forme in euery place obserued they did in suche sorte appoynt them as they sawe to be requisite for the condition of any Citie or Countrie And it is certaine that the Churches in all ages haue vsed their libertie in these thinges therfore they are to iniurious which at this day eyther vnder the name of the traditiōs of the Apostles or for any other pretence go about to binde all Churches to one and the selfe same forme And vpon the. 12. chapter where he againe speaketh of the Seigniorie he Idem sayeth There be diuers which will needes institute Elders or an Ecclesiasticall enate according to the exāple of the old primitiue Churche which also should haue authoritie ouer the Magistrates thēselues if at any time they did not their dutie But it behoueth them first to shew that those their Seniors haue this power wherof Paule doth presētly speake which thing seing it doth by no meanes appeare and yet notwithstanding they deliuer vnto Satan whom they wil they do like as if some would go about to clense the leprous raise the dead worke other miracles bicause these things were vsually done in the primitiue Churche And y ◠which he speaketh touching this matter also vpō the. 14. chapt of y e same Epistle is not vnworthie y e noting whereof I haue before made mention That their ambition Idem is there reproued which go about to bring all churches to the forme of their discipline gouernmēt crie out that there is no discipline there where al things are not agreable to their traditiōs orders But these mē receiue a iust reward of their arrogācie when as they that come frō thē to other coūtries do go
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
churche is not able to fynde a Curate as he termeth hym and a Deacon I haue before shewed intreatyng of the Seniors that the churches in the Apostles tymes myght best haue sayd this beyng poore and persecuted although I see not why the churche may not haue a Deacon or Deacons if mo be needefull with as small charges as they may haue a collector or collectors Io. Whitgifte It is the Admonition that sayeth Euery paryshe cannot be at that caste to haue bothe Wherevpon I doe but aske this question why they require them both in euery paryshe if euerye paryshe cannot bee at the coste to haue them both Bylike you make small accompte of the Admonition in that you read it not or else you haue forgotten that this question is demaunded vpon their confession But in deede I am of that opinion too and haue before answered your obiection of the Churches in the Apostles tymes as for our Collectors they be suche as put not the Churche to one halfepenye charge so could not your Deacons do Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision Admonition For they (u) Pontifi tit The ordring of deacons may baptise in the presence of a Byshop or priest or in their absence if necessitie so requyre minister the other Sacrament lykewyse reade the holy Scriptures and homilies in the congregation instructe the youth in the Catechisme and also preache if he be commaunded by the Byshop Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Sect. 2. I knowe not what you meane by your Ponti tit in the margent of your booke but if you meane the booke entituled the forme and māner of making and consecrating Byshops c. nowe allowed in this Churche of Englande then do you vntruely reporte it for there is no mention of baptising in the presence of a Bishop or Priest neyther yet of ministring the other Sacramente in their absence if necessitie require onely the booke sayeth that a Deacon may baptise or preache if he be thervnto admitted by the Byshop and that he may so doe by the worde of God I haue proued before As for reading the holye Scriptures and Homelies in the Congregation also for instructing the youth in the Catechisme who doubteth but that a Deacon may doe them Admonition The Deaconshyp (y) 1. Tim. 3. 8. must not be confounded with the ministerie nor the Collectours for the poore may not vsurpe the Deacons office but he that hath an (z) Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 7. 20 office must looke to his office and euery man must keepe hymselfe within the bondes and limites of his owne vocation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. 2. Neither doe we confounde them and yet Paule in the place by you quoted in the margent speaketh not one worde of confounding or not confounding these offices So the poore be prouided for it forceth not whether prouision be made by Deacons or by Collectours by the one it may be well done by the other it cannot be done in all places as the state is nowe But shew any Scripture to proue that the poore must onely be prouided for by Deacons else not Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this ¶ Of the offices of Widowes and their continuance Chap. 2. T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 2. There remayneth to speake of the Widowes which were godly poore women in the church aboue the age of three score yeares for the auoyding of all suspition of euill whiche myght ryse y sclaunderous tongues it they had bene yonger These as they were nouryshed at the charges of the churche being poore so did they serue the churche in attending vpon poore straungers and the poore whiche were sicke in the churche whereof they were widowes (*) This will not agree with the doctrine you taught before Pag. 1. 41. Now although there is not so great vse of these widowes with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded and in that tyme wherein this order of widowes was instituted parte of the whiche necessitie grewe both by the multitude of straungers through the persecution and by the great heare of those easte countryes wherevpon the washing and supplyng of their feete was required yet to so muche as there are poore which are sicke in euery churche I do not see howe a better and more conuenient order can be deuised for the attendaunce of them in their syckenesse and other infirmities than this which sainct Paule apoynteth that there should be if there can bee any gotten godly poore widowes of y e age which S. Paule apointeth which should attend vpon such For it there be any such poore wydowes of that age destitute of all frendes it is manifest that she must needes iyue of the charge of the churche and seing she must needes doe so it is better she should doe some duty for it vnto the churche agayne than the churche should be at a newe charge to fynde others to attende vpon those which are sycke and destitute of kepers seing that there can be none so fitte for that purpose as those women which saynt Paule doth there describe so that I conclude that (*) This condition cānot agree with so precise cōmaundement as you haue made it before if such may be gotten we ought also to keepe that order of widowes in the churche styll I knowe that there be learned men which thinke otherwyse but I stande vpon the authoritie of Gods worde and not vpon the opinions of men be they neuer so wel learned and if the matter also should be tried by the iudgement of men I am able to shewe the iudgement of as learned as this age hath brought forth which thinketh that the institution of widowes is perpetuall and ought to bee where it may be had and where such widowes are founde Indeede they are more rare nowe than in the Apostles tymes For then by reason of the persecution those whiche had the gifte of continencie did abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were dryuen to flye than the estate of those which were maryed Io. Whitgifte Here you are taken in your owne trappe and fayne you would wrynge your The Replie tripped and caught in his owne nette Pag. 141. selfe out if you could tell which waye for if all thinges conteyned in S. Paule his first Epistle to Timothie bee perpetuall and must be kept vnder the great charge that be gaue vnto Timothie in the sixt chapter as you haue before affirmed then of necessitie the churche must needes still reteyne wydowes You knowe not in the worlde howe to auoyde this absurditie and therefore some tymes you saye that nowe there is not so great vse of them with vs as there was in those places where the churches were first founded c. and by and by you beginne to call that backe and saye that you do not see howe a better and more conuenient
order can be deuised for the attendance of them in their sickenes and other infirmities c. and in the ende you conclude that if such maye be gotten wee ought also to keepe that order of wydowes in the churche still Surely if it be an order appointed of God to be perperpetuall and conteined vnder that denunciation to Timothie in the sixt chapter these ifs and ands can take no place for there are wydowes good store in this realme of Englande so that that excuse will not serue But it is a world to sée what you dare auouche be it neuer so vntrue contrary both to the practise of all reformed churches that I can heare of and iudgementes of all learned men that I haue read of this matter But if the institution of widowes be so necessay why should they not be in euerye congregation as wel as Deacons for the Apostle speaketh as directly of them in his epistle to Timothie as he doth of Deacons Againe if this be a sufficient excuse why the church hath no widowes to say that they cannot be gotten or there is none meete why will not the excuse serue the church for lacke of your Seniors also c. ¶ Of the Authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall mattets Tract 20. The. 1. Diuision Admonition And to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Churche to be committed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 126. Sect. vlt. This is only by you set downe without proofe therefore I will heare your reasons before I make you answere In the meane time I praye you what authoritie in these matters do you giue to the ciuill Where is the princes autho ritie magistrate me thinke I heare you whisper that the Prince hath no authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters I knowe it is a receiued opinion among some of you and therein you shake handes also with the Papistes and Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 153. Lin. vlt. c. Unto all the rest vntill the ende of the firste parte of the Admonition I haue answered already yet there is a poynte or two whiche I must touche whereof the first is in the. 126. pag. where hee would beare men in hande that the authours of the Admonition some other of their mynde would shut out the ciuill magistrate and the prince from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters Whiche surmise although I see it is not so much bicause either he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing as bicause he meaneth hereby to laye a bayte to entrappe withal thinking that where (a) Note these speaches he maketh no conscience to giue he careth not what authoritie to princes wee will be loth to giue more than the worde of God will permit wherby he hopeth to drawe vs into displeasure with the prince yet for bicause he shall vnderstande we nourishe no opinons secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in this part which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite but is lymited by the worde of God of whome we are persuaded that as her maiestie knoweth so she will not vnwillingly heare y e truth in this behalfe these things I say being considered I answere in the name of the authors of the Admonition and those some other which you speake of that the prince and ciuill magistrate (b) VVhat {reversed} no more but to see them executed {reversed} how differeth this from Papistrie {reversed} hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed and duly obserued and to see that euery ecclesiasticall persone do that office whervnto he is appointed to punish those which faile in their office accordingly (c) The prince spoyled of authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders As for y e making of y e orders and ceremonies of the churche they do where there is a constituted and ordered churche perteyne vnto the ministers of y e church and to the ecclesiasticall gouernours that as they medle not with y e making of ciuill lawes lawes for the common wealth so the ciuill magistrate hath not to ordeyne ceremonies perteining to the church But if those to whome that doth apperteyne make any orders not meete the magistrate may and ought to hynder them driue them to better for so much as the ciuil magistrate hath this charge to see that nothing be done against y e glorie of God in his dominiō Io. Whitgifte The wordes of the Admonition pag. 126. be these and fo these three ioyntly that is the The Admoni tors and T. C. ioyne with the Papistes against the Queenes supremacie in matters ecclesiasticall Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regimēt of the churche to be committed Wherfore they spoyle the ciuill magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiasticall matters for if the whole gouernmēt of the church is to be cōmitted to Ministers Seniors Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuil magistrate in the gouernment of it Agreable to this disobedient spirite erroneous Papisticall doctrine is that in the second Admonitiō Fol. 8. 9. where the authors of that booke take from the ciuill magistrate all supremacie in Ecclesiasticall matters and by euident circumstances call his authoritie vsed in those things vsurped pag. 57. they saye only meere ciuill lawes are to be made And here in this place T. C. in expresse wordes taketh from the ciuill magistrate all authoritie of makyng and appointing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 orders and ceremonies of the church and giueth the same onely to ministers and eccle asticall gouerne rs he maketh it the princes dutie to see those awes executed which these eccle asticall gouernours shall appoynte and prescribe and in his Preface he saith that eiuill persones may not handle ecclesiastical matters and Pag. 35. 145. y e the ciuil magistrate may not be the head of the church in that common wealth whereof he is the head Where by as I suppose he meaneth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 supreame gouernour and that the churche may bee established without him Pag. 54. hee denieth that the magistrate ought to prescribe what kynde of apparell ministers should 〈◊〉 In diuers places he maketh such a distinction betwixt the church of Christ a Christian cōmon wealth y t hath a Christiā magistrate as he would do betwixt the church a Heathenishe common wealth y t hath a persecuting and an vnbeleuing magistrate and separateth the common wealth of Englande as farre from the churche of Englande as he can do the common wealthe of Turcia from the churche of Christ in Turcia all this I haue noted to this ende that the good subiect and those that be carefull for the preseruation of the state of this Realme and the lawefull authoritie of hir Maiestie may the better consider and
griefe and dismay of all those that professe Christian religion and labour to atteyne Christian reformation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 146. 147. 148. You complayne muche of vnbrotherly and vncharitable entreating Complaynte of persecution without cause of you of remouing you from your offices and places Surely in this poynt I must compare you to certayne Heretikes that were in Augustines time who moste bitterly by sundry meanes afflicting and molesting the true ministers of the Churche yet for all that cried out that they were extremely dealt with and cruelly persecuted by them or else vnto a shrewde and vngratious wyfe which beating hir husbande by hir clamorous complaynts maketh hir neighbours Persecution of the tongue beleeue that hir husbande beateth hir or to him that is mentioned in Erasmus collequies that dyd steale and runne away with the Priestes purse ▪ and yet cried alwayes as he ranne stay the theefe stay the theefe and thus crying escaped and yet he was the theefe him selfe You are as gentlye entreated as maye be no kinde of brotherly persuation omitted towards you most of you as yet keepe your liuings though some one or two be displaced you are offered all kinde of friendlynesse if you could be content to conforme your selues yea but to be quiet and holde your peace You on the contrary side moste vnchristianly and moste vnbrotherly bothe publikely and priuately rayle on those that shewe this humanitie towards you slaunder them by all meanes you can and moste vntruely reporte of them seeking by all meanes their discredite Agayne they as their Disobediēce allegiance to the Prince and duetie to lawes requireth yea and as some of them by othe are bounde doe execute that discipline whiche the Prince the lawe and theyr othe requireth you contrarie to all obedience duetie and othe openly violate and breake those lawes orders and statutes whiche you ought to obey and to the whiche A token of a good conscience some of you by othe is bounde If your doings proceede in deede from a good conscience then leaue that liuing and place which byndeth you to those things that be agaynst your conscience for why shoulde you striue with the disquietnesse bothe of your selues and others to keepe that liuing which by lawe you can not excepte you offend agaynst your conscience Or what honestie is there to sweare to statutes and lawes and when you haue so done contrary to your othe to breake them and yet still to remayne vnder them and enioy that place which requireth obedience and subiection to them For my parte I thinke it muche better by remouing you from your lyuings to offende you than by suffering you to enioy them to offende the Prince the lawe conscience and God And before God I speake it if I were persuaded as you seeme to be I woulde rather quietly forsake all the liuings I haue than be an occasion of strife and contention in the Church and a cause of stumbling to the weake and reioycing to the wicked I knowe God woulde prouide for me if I did it bona conscientia yea surely I woulde rather dye than be an author of schismes a disturber of the common peace and quietnesse of the Church and state There is no reformed Churche that I can heare Euery church hath a determinate order of ceremonies tell of but it hath a certayne prescript and determinate order aswel touching ceremonies and discipline as doctrine to the whiche all those are constrayned to giue their consent that will liue vnder the protection of it and why then maye not this Churche of Englande haue so in like maner Is it meete that euery man should haue his owne phansie or liue as him liste Truely I knowe not wherevnto these your dooings can tende but eyther to Anabaptisme or to meere confusion But nowe to the reasons that moue you not to subscribe to those Articles ministred vnto you by hir Maiesties highe Commissioners T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti Deus bone quam te illud non decet Heere M. Pleasant diuinitie Doctor was disposed to make him selfe and his Reader merie but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth not with the harpe or lute which the learned were wont to handle For he hath packed by togither the olde tale of the curst wyfe and of the thiefe that tooke away the Priests purse very familiar and homely geare It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hoppe about the house but the learned and the wyse can not daunce by this instrument It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their liuings without iust cause to heretikes curst wyues and to theeues but all men do vnderstande how rightly What his troubles be within and in his conscience the Lorde God and he knoweth best but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffreth it is not suche as he neede thus to stoupe and to grone and to blowe vnderneath it as though he had some great burthen vpon his shoulders And if he cōplayne of the persecution of the tongue to let passe his immoderate heate of speeche whych he vseth with those that he hathe to doe withall the tongue whiche is more intemperate than his is in all his booke shall hardely be founde Io. Whitgifte And I thanke God I can be mery with the bagpype I am neyther ashamed of the Instrument nor of the countrey But what diuinitie call you this alacke poore spite at the bagpipe Surely you doe me a pleasure when you tell me of it You haue omitted nothing that by any meanes might serue you for a iest O great grauitie c. But let vs leaue puerilia pueris I knowe none of you put from your liuings without moste iuste cause if there be any iniuried that wayes God be thanked they maye finde iustice My quietnesse within my conscience I moste humbly thanke my God therefore dothe mitigate the heate of the slaunderous generation and maketh me more willing to deale agaynst that secte that can not be maynteyned without suche kinde of vncharitable and slaunderous dealing I remember what Cyprian sayth to Cornelius Epist. lib. 1. Ecclesiasticall Cyprian discipline is not therefore to be lefte of nor the seueritie that becommeth a Priest to be slackned bicause we are reuiled and euill spoken of c. And agayne The opprobrious speeches of the wicked ought not to moue vs so that we decline from the righte way and the sure rule seeing that the Apostle instructeth vs saying If I ▪ shoulde please men I were not the seruant of Christ. If the heate of my tongue be immoderate what shall be sayde of yours But this kinde of dealing is nothing méete for vs. Wherefore if you continue in this vayne you shall haue the best game for me T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be vnreasonable inoughe that he shoulde not giue men leaue to complayne of their troubles
all learned men both liuing dead They may well be sayde to haue sealed this booke wyth their bloud How they sea led the booke with their bloud bicause they were martyred for that religion that is conteyned in this booke and according to the which this booke was framed and if they were condemned for improuing the articles drawne out of the Masse booke ▪ as you say why maye it not be likewise affirmed that they receyued the sentence of condemnation for approuing the Articles conteyned in the Communion booke I know the booke they dyed for was the booke of God yet did not the aduersarie pretende that but the articles drawne out of this and suche like bookes grounded vpon the worde and booke of God Name one of them who at the time of his death or in y e time of his imprisonmēt declared openly his misliking of certayne things in this booke I can shew you the contrarie That notable vessell of God for learning zeale and vertue inferiour to none of our M. Ridleys testimonie of the booke of cōmon prayer age Master Ridley Bishop of London in his last farewell as it is called looking dayly and hourely when he should go to the stake giueth this testimonie of this same booke of common prayers the whiche the Churche of Englande nowe vseth and you so contemptuously reiect This Churche sayth he of Englande had of late of the M. Foxe infinite goodnesse and abundant grace of almightie God great substance great riches of heauenly treasure plentie of Gods true and sincere worde the true and vvholsome administration of Christes holy sacraments the whole profession of Christes religion truely and playnely set foorth in baptisme the playne declaration and vnderstanding of the same taught in the holy ▪ Catechisme to haue bin learned of all true Christians This Church had also a true and sincere forme and maner of the Lords supper wherin according to Iesus Christes ordināce holy institution Christes cōmaundements were executed and done For vpon the bread and wine set vpon the Lords table thāks were giuen the commemoration of the Lords death was had the bread in the remembrance of Christes body torne vpon the crosse was broken and the cuppe in remembrance of Christes bloud was distributed and both communicated vnto all that were present and woulde receyue them and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do All was done openly in the vulgare tongue so that euery thing mighte be bothe easily heard and playnely vnderstoode of all the people to Gods high glory and the edification of the whole Church This Church had of late the whole diuine seruice all common and publike prayers ordeyned to be sayde and heard in the common congregarion not onely formed and fashioned to the true vayne of the holy Scripture but also set foorth according to the commaundement of the Lorde and S. Paules doctrine for the peoples edification in their vulgar tongue But I knowe his testimonie shall weigh with you as all other mens doe howbeit I trust it will pearce the hearts of the godly Neyther is this to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God when the martyrdome of men is brought into beare witnesse vnto the truthe of God Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The vnperfectnesse of this booke and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popishe dunghill the Masse booke with the contents therein that be agaynst the worde of God shall appeare I am sure in your seuerall reasons for it is not sufficient for you barely to saye so without witte learning or reason This you know right wel that in so saying you make the Papists Aduantage gi uen to the papistes by the Admonitours leape for ioye bicause they haue gotten suche companions to assaulte this booke whylest they rest them lye as it were in sleepe O that the wyse men of this realme suche I meane as be in authoritie see not this Popishe practise and seeke not with more earnestnesse to preuent it Will ye suffer the Papists to gather strength and to multiplie by tollerating such Libellers vnder the pretēce of reformatiō to discredite so muche as lyeth in them yea to ouerthrow the whole state and substance of religion in this Churche Bee not secure but watche and remember the beginning and encrease of the Anabaptistes of late in Germanie whiche I haue described in my Preface to this booke You saye that you can not but much maruell at the craftie wilynesse of those men whose partes it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therin to be agreable to Gods word c. Nay surely but it were your parts rather to proue The apponēt must proue by rules of Logike that there is something therein contrarie or not agreable to Gods worde For such as be learned and knowe the manner of reasoning say that the Opponent must proue or improue and not the answerer They stande to the defense and mayntenance of the booke you seeke to ouerthrowe it it is your partes therfore to iustifie your assertions by reasons and arguments T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. For the Papistes triumphe I haue answered before and I will not striue about the Goates 〈◊〉 who is the apponent and who the respondent in this difference Io. Whitgifte Thus you passe all this ouer in silence for I doe not remember where you haue answered one worde to it Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue by the worde of God that a reading seruice going before and with the administration of the sacraments is according to the worde of God that wafer cakes for theyr bread when they minister it surplesse and cope to doe it in churching of women comming in vayles abuong the Psalme to hir I haue lifted vp mine eyes vnto the hilles c. and suche other Psal. 120. foolishe things are agreable to the written worde of the almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 151. Sect. 2. 152. Sect 1. I doe not well vnderstande your meaning would you haue vs to proue that to reade prayers before and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion booke agreable to y e scripture the sacraments is according to the worde of God In deede in the booke of seruice there is first appoynted to be read some one or two profitable sentences mouing eyther to prayer or to repentance after followeth a generall confession then the Lords prayer and certayne Psalmes nexte certayne chapters out of the olde and newe Testamente c. laste of all the administration of the sacramente If you aske me of the sentences they be scripture If of the Lordes prayer Psalmes and chapters they be scripture also If of the sacrament of the Supper it is according to scripture Matth. 26. Marke 14. Luke 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
that can not he founde as belike it can not then must their antiquitie be very great Collegiate and Cathedrall Churches be all one for any thing that I can reade to the contrarie if it be not so shewe the difference The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. But for so much as those auncient Collegiate churches were no more like vnto those whiche we haue now than things most vnlike our Cathedrall churches haue not so muche as this olde worne cloke of Antiquitie to hide their nakednesse to keepe out the shower For the Collegiate churches in times past were a Senate ecclesiastical stāding of godly learned ministers and elders which gouerned and watched ouer that flocke which was in y e citie or towne where such churches were for that in such great cities townes commonly there were the most learned pastors auncients therfore the townes villages rounde about in harde difficuite causes came and had their resolutions of their doubtes at their handes euen as also the Lord commaunded in Deuteron e Deut. 17. that when there was any great matter in the countrie which the Le tes in matters perteyning to God and the iudges in matters perteyning to the common wealth could not discusse that then they should come to Hierusalem where there was a great number of Priests Le tes and learned iudges of whom they should haue their questions dissolued and this was the first vse of Collegiate churches Io. Whitgifte True it is that in times past there was in euery citie Collegium presbyterorum cui In euery citie a colledge of 〈◊〉 praeerat Episcopus a Colledge of ministers ouer whom the Bishop bare rule the which lerome calleth Senatum Ecclesiae the Senate of the churche and the same is now called a collegiate or Cathedrall churche It is also euident that these Presbyteri were all Priests that they with the Bishop had the deciding of al cōtrouersies in doctrine or ceremonies the directiō of diuers other matters in al those places that were vnder that citie that is in all that shyre or Diocesse therfore sayeth M. Caluine speaking Institut cap. 8. Sect. 52. of the primitiue church Euery citie had a colledge of Seniors which were Pastors Doctors for they all had the office of preaching to the people of exhorting and of correcting the which office S. Paule doth commit to Bishops and this is that Seigniorie wherof the auncient writers speake so much which you vntruly without consideration say to haue bene in euery parish and to consist as well of other as of Priests Ministers of the worde and although that kinde of gouernment which these churches had is transferred to the Ciuill Magistrate to whom it is due and to such as by him are appointed yet is it not so cleane blotted out as you would make vs beleeue For Our Cathedral churches not much differing from those of auncient time the Bishop who was then and is now the chiefe of that colledge or Church keepeth his authoritie still may if he please call to gither those ministers or Priestes of the Cathedrall Church to consult of such things as are expedient in diuers p tes he can do nothing without them Moreouer diuerse of the same churches some 〈◊〉 office and some appointed by election are bounde to attende vpon prouinciall 〈◊〉 so oft as the Archbishop at the cōmaundement of the Prince doth call the ame wise they be places wherein are nourished for the most parte the best the wise the learnedst men of the Clergie in the lande whiche not onely in the respect of their soundnesse in religiō profoundnesse in learning diligēce in preaching but wisedome also experience dexteritie in gouerning are not onely an ornament to the realme profitable to the Churche honour to the Prince but also a stay from barbarisme a bridle to sectes heresies a bulwarke agaynst confusion Wherefore as the vse of The hse of Cathedrall churches as necessarie now as afore 〈◊〉 them then for those times states was good and godly so is the vse of them now in this age and state no lesse conuenient godly and necessarie whiche you nor all your fautors shall euer be able to disproue The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 164. In the ende Afterwarde the honor whiche the smaller Churches gaue vnto them in asking them councell ▪ they tooke vnto themselues and that whiche they had by the curtesy and good will proceding of a reuerent estimation of them they did not onely take vnto them of right but also dispossessed them of all authority of hearing and determining any matters at all And in the end they came to this which they are nowe which is a company that haue strange names and strange offices vnheard of of al the purer churches of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is that they do no harme For although there be diuerse which do good yet in respect that they be Deanes Prebendaries ▪ Canons Petycanons c. for my parte I see no profite but hurte come to the church by them Io. Whitgifte All this is vntrue and your owne enely imagination for these Churches haue not encreased theyr authoritie but diminished it rather as it is euident The names Tract 8. Ca. 2. and offices vsed in them I haue proued before in the title of Archbishops c. to be neyther straunge nor vnhearde of in the purer and auncient Churches And though you sée no profite that commeth to the Churche by them yet those that be quietly disposed in the Churche those that haue a care for the good gouernment of the Church those that haue not by any schisme deuided themselues from the Churche sée great profite and singular commoditie The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 1. 2. And where he sayeth they are rewardes of learning in deede then they should be if they were conuerted vnto the maintenance and bringing vp of Schollers where now for the most parte they serue for fat morsels to fill if might be the greedy appetites of those which otherwise haue enough to liue with and for holes and dennes to keepe them in which eyther are vnworthie to be kepce at the charge of the churche or els whose presence is necessary and dutifull in other places and for the most part vnprofitable there Last of all whereas M. Doctor sayth that we haue not to follow other churches but rather other churches to follow vs I haue answered before this onely I adde that they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine but those whiche made the people of God beleeue that they were happie when they were not and that their estate was very good when it was corrupt Of the which kinde of false prophecie I say and Ieremy especially do complayne And therefore vnlesse M. Doctor amend his speach and leaue this crying peace peace all is well when there are so
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
foorth we mind by Gods grace to make it playner and shoulde do it better if it were as lawfull for vs as for our aduersaries to publish our mindes in print then should appeare what slender stuffe they bring that are so impudent by open writing to defend it And if it might please hir Maiestie by the aduise of you righte Honorable in this high Court of Parliament to heare vs by writing or otherwise to defend ourselues then such is the equitie of our cause that we would trust to find fauoure in hir Maiesties sight then those patched Pamphlets made by sodeine vpstarts and new conuerts should appeare in their colours and truth haue the victorie and God the glory if this cannot be obteyned we will by Gods grace addresse ourselues to defende his truthe by suffering and willingly lay our heads to the blocke And this shall be our peace to haue quiet consciences with our God whome we will abide for with all patience vntill he make our full deliuerance Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 243. And I will not spare my laboure from time to time to vtter my mind and conscience in these matters protesting that if by learning you can perswade me I will say agayne with Augustine Errare possum baereticus esse nolo All the rest of your stoute and suspitious braggs of your vndecent and vnseemely words I let passe and leaue them to be considered as notes of your spirit and modestie The Queenes Maiestie may assure hir selfe that she hath of learned men a number sufficient able by learning to mainteine both hir authoritie and lawes which hir Maiestie hath hitherto vsed and made for the further e of the Gospell and mainteyning of good order and peace in the Church The Lord of his infinite goodnesse long preserue hir and giue vs thankfull hearts to God for hir T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 1. Unto the next section I haue answered in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise which declareth to whome it doth appert ine to make ceremonies and orders of the Church And vnto the section contayned in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of oynions auswereth of garlike For the Authours of the Admonition desiring that it might be as lawfull for them to published by print their minds or to be heard dispute or that their mind put in writing might be openly debated M. Doctor answereth with Augustines sentence which he hath made the fote of his song nothing to the purpose of that which they says the performance of which promise we will notwithstanding wait for Io. Whitgifte Why what haue they sayd there worth the answering that I haue not directly answered vnto they boast of their writing and of their disputing And I tell them that I will not spare my laboure from time to time to vtter my mind and consciēce in these matters also What other answer would you haue me to make vnto them The saying of S. Augustine commeth in due place you call it the foote of my song and I am very well content you should so do for I intend to sing that song so long as I liue neither can any mislike it but such as either be or intende to be herelikes I purpose God willing to performe all the promises that I haue made and when I shrinke from any of them let me heare of it Admonition For the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine vsing a godly interpretation in a poynte Doctrine The right gouernment of the Churche cannot be separated from the doctrine 1. Tim. 3. 2. or two which are eyther too sparely or else too darkely set downe we were and are ready according to duetie to subscribe vnto them We would to God that as they hold the substance togither with vs and we with them so they would not denie the effect and vertue thereof then shoulde not our words and works be deuorced but Christ should be suffered to reigne a true ministerie according to the word instituted discipline exercised Sacraments purely and sincerely ministred thys is that we striue for and about which we haue suffered k 1. Pet. 3. 17 not as euill doers but for resisting poperie and refusing to be stoong with the tayle of Antichristian infection ready l 2. Pet. 3. 15. to render a reason of our fayth to the stopping of all our enimies mouthes We therefore for the Churche of Gods sake whiche ought to be most deare vnto you beseech you for our soueraignes sake vpon whome we pray that all Gods blessing may be poured abundantly we pray you to consider of these abuses to reforme Gods Church according to your duties and callings that as with one mouth we confesse one Christe so with one consent this reigne of Antichriste may be turned out headlong from amongst vs and Christ our Lord may reygne by hys word ouer vs. So your seates shal be established and setled in great assurance you shall not neede to feare your enimies for God wyll turne away his threatned plagues from vs which he in mercy do for his Christes sake Amen Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 245. 246. It is very well that you so like of the articles but yet it pleaseth Of subscribing to the Articles you not to subscribe vnto them you say bycause of a point or two which are eyther too sparely or else too darkly set downe but indeede your meaning is to subscribe to nothing which by authoritie you are required to do and that argueth an arrogant mind and a disposition that loueth alway to be singular You note in the margente that the right gouernmēt of the Church The argumēt of the aduersary retorted agaynst himselfe can neuer be separated from the doctrine but by your owne confessiō we haue the doctrine Ergo of necessitie we also haue the righte gouernment Here in few words you haue cast downe whatsoeuer you seemed before to build so do commonly vnskilfull builders I would to God that for so much as contrary to your former assertion you now confesse that we haue the veritie of doctrine you could be content to say downe great heart and submit your selues to the Queenes Maiestie and hir lawes according to your dutie then no doubt Christ should without resistance reigne in this Church and the frutes of the Gospell would much more appeare You bragge much of your suffering you are little beholding to Persecution pretended wher none is your neighbours when you are thus constreyned to prayse your selues But I pray you whether dothe he persecute that modestly and soberly defendeth the truthe or he that vnlawfully reuengeth hymselfe with rayling and backbi ing you loue very well to haue the worlde knowe howe greatly you be persecuted and therefore if one of you here in Cambridge be punished but twenty pence for his open contempte of statutes to the whiche he is sworne in post hast it is carried into all quarters and especially to London
where greate complaynte is made of this greeuous persecution when as you and your disciples cease not as I sayde moste falsely and slaunderously to reporte of suche as executing good lawes discharge theyr conscience to God and their duetie towardes the Prince We therefore exhorte you if there be any feare of God before your eyes any reuerence towards the Prince any desire of promoting the Gospell any louing affection towardes the Church of Christe to submit your selues according to your dueties to godly orders to leaue off contentiousnesse to ioyne with vs in preaching of the word of God and beating downe the kingdome of Antichriste that thys your diuision procure not Gods wrath to be poured vpon vs. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authours of the Admonition whiche declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe saithe that therefore they will not subscribe bycause they are required by lawfull authoritie which how both presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whiche hath bin declared And where M. Doctor would vpon y ◠marginal note pr y t we haue good discipline bycause we haue good doctrine ther vpon doth wonderfully triumph he playeth as he of whome it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is hauing gotten nothing holdeth it fast For can M. Doctor be so ignorant that this manner of speach doctrine and discipline cannot be s uered is vsed of that that they ought not to be seuered ▪ when as we say following S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth do we not meane that we ought to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife but for the cause of A ultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therefore this is as all men may see a meere cauill and triumph ouer his owne shadow There is no bragge of suffering made by the authours of the Admonition The modestie wherwith he hath defended this cause cannot be hidden That he would haue other men punished for well doing when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth should be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Io. Whitgifte I speake of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine which they confesse to be sound vsing a godly interpretation in a poynt or two c. what other abuses so euer there be in the booke of common prayer or in the Church yet that is no sufficient cause why they shoulde refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church and conteyned in those Articles Wherefore séeing they confesse them to be sound and yet denie to subscribe who can otherwise iudge of them than I haue signifyed in my Answer I acknowledge my selfe to be ignorante that in this and suche like phrases thys Can is not taken for ought if it be spoken simply word Can is taken for ought When Saint Paule saithe that we can do nothing againste the truth he meaneth simply as he speaketh and doth not there vse Can for ought For indeede we can do nothing against the truth though we do the worst we can It is no vsuall phrase but an vnproper kind of speach to say that a man cannot do a thing when he should say that he ought not to do it except he adde some thing as he cannot do it lawfully or well or orderly and such like Wherefore my dulnesse is such that I cannot vnderstande suche darke speaches vntill they be interpreted and yet whether they woulde so interprete themselues or no it maye be doubted If they bragge not of persecution wherevnto tende these wordes of theirs this is that we striue for about which we haue suffered not as euill doers c. and quote in the margent to proue it 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels How immodest soeuer I am in defending this cause yet if it be compared eyther to Schismatiks deserue to be sharply reproued their passing bitternesse or to your spitefull speaches and vnséemely tauntes and iestes I shall appeare tootoo simple and although I must néedes say thus much that disturbers of the common peace of the Churche and Schismatikes deserue to be with sharpe wordes reproued yet haue not I vsed that sharpenesse and bitternesse whyche diuerse learned menne bothe olde and newe haue vsed in the lyke case If I haue done any man wrong let him come foorth and proue it and I will render vnto him quadruple T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3. Finally as you exhort vs to submitte ourselues to good order whiche haue bin alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne with you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and will not suffer vs to preache so we exhort you in Gods behalfe and as you will once answer it before the iust iudge that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not against it Wherefore we pray you to take heede that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honoure which you are in nor the hope which you may haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by mainteining that whiche you haue once set downe nor the sleighey suggestion of craftie and wyly Papists do driue you to stumble against this truth of God which toucheth the gouernment of his Church and the purging of those corruptions whiche are amongst vs knowing that you cannot stumble vpon the word of God but foorthwith you runne yourselfe against Christ which is the rocke And you know that he will not giue back but breaketh all to fitters whatsoeuer that rusheth against him Io. Whitgifte You do not submit your selues to the order of the Church which is a good and decent order you haue filled the Churche with maruellous contentions and haue strangely deuided euen such as professe the Gospell your mouthes are not stopped but through your owne procuring I do not withstand that which you vntruly call the truth for any such cause as you surmise God who seeth my hart knoweth but bycause I sée these your deuises to be set downe by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God agaynste the practise and order of the primitiue Churche tending also to daungerous errours and meere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth T. C. Page 172. Sect. vlt. And if the matter herein alleadged do not satisfye you then I desire euen before the same GOD that you confute it not by passing ouer thynges whyche you can not answer or by stauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansie to confuce or by wrougling
and sixth sections he speaketh of the maner and forme of confirmation and laying on of handes vsed by the Papists and disproueth that as his owne wordes which I haue for that purpose more at large set downe do plainly declare for in the fourth Section of the. 19. Chapter thus hee wryteth This was the maner in tymes past that the children of Christians shoulde bee Caluin inst cap. 9 sect 4. set before the Bishop after they were come to yeares of discretion that they might performe that which was required of them that being of age did offer themselues to baptisme For these sat among the Catechumeni vntill being rightly instructed in the mysteries of fayth they were able to vtter a confession of their fayth before the Bishop and the people The insants therefore that were baptised bicause then they made no confession of A kind of con described by Caluin not disagreeing from ours fayth in the Church at the ende of their childehoode or in the beginning of their youth they were againe presented of their parents and were examined of the Bishop according to a certaine and common forme of a Catechisme And to the intent that this action which otherwise ought of right to be graue and holy might haue the greater reuerence and estimation there was added also the ceremonie of laying on of handes so the childe was dismissed his fayth being approued with a solemne blessing The auncient fathers make often mention of this order Pope Leo If any man returne from heretikes let him not againe be baptised but let the vertue of the spirite which was wanting be giuen vnto him by the laying on of the Bishops handes Here our aduersaries will crie that it is rightly called a Sacrament wherein the holy Ghost is giuen But Leo himselfe doth in another place expounde what he meaneth by those wordes He that is baptised sayth he of heretikes let him not be rebaptised but let him be cōfirmed with the inuocation of the holy Ghost by the imposition of handes bicause he receyued only the forme of baptisme without sanctification Hierome also maketh mention hereof contra Luciferianos Although I doe not denie that Herome is somwhat herein deceyued that he sayth that it is an Apostolicall obseruation yet is he most farre from these mens follies And he mittigateth it when he sayth that this blessing was graunted only to the Bishop rather for the honour of priesthood than by the necessitie of the law VVherefore such an imposition of handes which is simply in stead of a blessing I commend and would wish it were at these dayes restored to the pure vse These words be euident declare a maner of confirmation correspondent to ours In the fifth Section he wryteth thus But the latter age haue brought in a counterfey e The abuse of confirmation in the popish Church confirmation in stead of a Sacrament of God the thing it selfe beeing almost quite blotted out They feyne this to be the vertue of confirmation to giue the holy Ghost vnto the encrease of grace whiche was giuen in baptisme to innocencie of lyfe to confirme them vnto battail which in baptisme were regenerated vnto life This confirmation is wrought with annointing and this forme of wordes I signe the with the signe of the holy Ghost and I confirme thee with the oyntment of saluation in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghost c. And in confuting this maner of confirmation and imposition of handes he procéedeth on in this fifth Section in the sixth Section Wherefore Master Caluine is not contrarie to himselfe neyther disalloweth that kinde of confirmation and imposition of handes in the sixth Section which he alloweth in the fourth But in the one he approueth the maner of the auncient and purer Church touching confirmation in the other he disproueth the vse doctrine of the papistical church cōcerning the same This might you haue sene if you had bin disposed but you care not whom you discredit so that you may winne credit to your selfe The confession of the Churches of Heluetia Berne c. speake only of the Popishe The Repl viech that against our confirmation which is 〈◊〉 of the Papistes Confess Heluet cap. 19. confirmation which the Papists make one of their seuen Sacraments as it is manifest by the wordes of the confession which be these Confirmation and extreame vnction or anealing are the inuentiōs of man which the church may wante without any dammage Neither vse we them in our churches for they haue some things which we can not allowe Nowe to vse that against Confirmation reformed purged from these things which they mislike which is spoken of the Popishe confirmation with all the abuses can it be thinke you the parte of an honest and playne dealing man Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 6. In the ende of that fiftenth article or reason this is added And whiche of them haue not preached against the Popes twoo swordes now whether they vse thē not them selues Touching the Popes twoo swordes we are of the same minde still for the Pope contrary to the word of God taketh from Princes vnto him selfe that authoritie which is due vnto them by the worde of God and would haue them to receiue that authoritie from him whiche he hath no power to giue the Pope also requireth the full authoritie of a ciuill magistrate and exempteth him self from all subiection which is lat cōtrary to the word of God our Bishops Bishops doo not vse the ciuiil sworde as the pope doth in this church do not chalenge as of their owne right any such ciuil authoritie but only according to their dutie execute that that by the Prince and lawes of this realme for iust considerations is laide vpō them Neither do they meddle in all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche only as helpeth to discipline and to the good gouernment of this church and state wherfore we may safely preach against the Popes twoo swordes and yet lawefully defend that iurisdictiō and authoritie that any Bishop hath in this church for any thing that I knowe T. C. Page 174. Sect. 3. Upon the sixt leafe M. Doctor saith that the Pope taketh the sworde from Princes but our Bishops take it at their handes and giuen of them as though challenge were not made against the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the Princes For by that reason if Princes would put their swordes in his hande as sometimes they haue done he might lawefully vse them And wheras he saieth that our churchmen meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but such as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church the estate What sayth he that is not truly sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme For no one doth meddle in all causes And further I would gladly knowe
salued their vnapt and vnfitte alleadging of M. Caluine who is farre from prouing their purpose in those places which they haue noted In deede the true spirituall gouernment of the church is the ruling of Christ by his spirite in the heartes of the elect neither do I denie but that admonition exhortation and excommunication The whole externall gouernment of the churche is not spirituall perteine also to the spirituall gouernment of the church bicause they perteyne to the inward man and vse no corporall force or punishment but I d nye the whole gouernment of the church to consiste herein for I haue proued before and it cannot bee denied but that God hath chiefly and principally committed the gouernmente of his churche to the Christian magistrate by the sworde also and by conuenient lawes and orders to gouerne the same with an externall kinde of gouernment and therfore that which I denye neither you nor they haue as yet proued or can proue that is that the gouernment of the church is only spiritual But styll the Reader may note howe you labour cleane to shut out the ciuill magistrate from the gouernment of the church The ciuil magistrate excluded from gouernment of y e church For if the gouernment of it be only spirituall which you laboure to pro e then what hath the ciuill magistrate to do therewith Admonishe and exhort he may not excōmunicate he cannot and therefore hath he by your doctrine no more to doe in the gouernment of the church which consisteth in these and such like spirituall actions than the poorest subiecte in this lande For when you saye that the Admonition is farre from shutting out either ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the churche you speake Subtil sp ch of y e Replier Gouernour in the church not of the church subtilly in saying in the church not of the church for you confesse that the ciuil magistrate is a gouernour in the church but not of the church that is he gouerneth the common wealth which is conteyned in the church but he doth not gouerne the church O howe simply and playnely you deale Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 8. In the margent ouer against the. 21. reason there is this note It conteyneth manifest blasphemie as may appeare Ephes. 1. 17. meanyng this saying of the Bishop to those that are admitted mynisters Receyue the holy Ghost The place in that chapter of the Epistle to the Ephesians proueth no such thing these be the wordes I cease not to giue thankes for you making mention of you in my prayers that the God of our Lorde Iesus Christe the father of glory might giue vnto you the spirite of vvisedome and reuelation thorough the knovvledge of him What sequele is there in this argument S. Paule prayed that God would giue to the Ephesians the spirite of wisedome and reuelation through the knowledge of him Ergo this saying of the Bishop Receyue the holy Ghost to those that are admitted into the mynisterie conteyneth manifest blasphemie Such is your vsuall manner of reasoning T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Upon the. 8. leafe M. Doctor sayth he seeth nothing how the place of the Ephes. maketh any thing agaynst this manner of speach of the Bishop Receyue the holy Ghost and yet it maketh thus much that for as much as the Apostles did vse to pray that the grace of God might be giuen vnto men the Bishops should not vse this manner of speache whiche conteyneth the forme of a commaundement Io. Whitgifte This is farre from prouing the woordes to conteyne a manifest blasphemie Of Tract 4. Cap. 2. the. 4. Diuis the manner of speaking these wordes vpon what consideration the Bishops vse the same forme and that they may do it I haue shewed before Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 9. All this is added Neyther is the cōtrouersie betwixt them and vs as they would beare the world in hand as for a cap a tippet or a surplesse but for greater matters concerning a true ministerie and regiment of the Church according to the worde VVhich things once established the other melt away of themselues and yet consider I pray you whether their owne argument doth not choake themselues for euen the very name of trifles doth playnly declare that they ought not to be maynteyned in Christes churche and what shall our Bishops winne by it forsoth that they be maynteyners of trifles and trifling Bishops consuming the greatest part of their time in those trifles whereas they should be better occupied VVe striue for true religiō and gouernment of the Church and shew you the right way to throw out Antichrist both head and tayle and that we will not so much as communicate with the tayle of the beast But they after they haue thrust out Antichriste by the head go aboute to pull him in agayne by the tayle cunningly colouring it least any man should espie his foote steps as Cacus did when he stole the oxen What other men haue done I know not but for my parte I alwayes suspected partly knewe that some of you had greater matters Great matters pretēded not yet vttered in hand and of more importance than cap tippet and surplisse which surely was one of the firste causes that moued me to be more earnest against you than I was accustomed for I did vnderstād that you were hatching opinions tending not only to Anabaptisme but to the ouerthrow of the Gospell disturbing the quiet state of this church and yet who knoweth not that you haue made the cappe and surplisse your pretence hetherto vntill nowe of late when you see almost all men condemne your folly You say we choake our selues with our owne argumēt for euen the very name of trifles doth playnely declare that they ought not to be maynteyned in Christes churche Surely of themselues they be but trifles as all other externall Ceremonies and indifferent thinges be it is the circumstances that maketh them no tryfles but matters of weight For thinges indifferent beyng commaunded thus or so to be vsed by the Magistrate not as necessarie to saluation and iussification but as conuenient and necessarie for order̄ and decencie be not now trifles And whosoeuer without a lawfull vrgent cause or in a case of necessitie dothe breake the lawe made of them sheweth himself a disordered person disobedient a contemner of lawfull authoritie and a wounder of his weake brothers conscience And if any man shall say that this is to bring vs agayne in bondage of the lawe and to depriue vs of our libertie I answere no for it is not a matter of iustification but of order and to be vnder a lawe is no taking away of Christian libertie Christian libertie what it is For the Christian libertie is not a licence to do what thou list but to serue God in newnesse of minde that for loue not for seruile feare Of themselues therefore they be but trifles but
tayle for the tayle of the beast as learned Tayle of Antichrist what it is mē say be false Prophets Hypocrites such as stirre vp Schismes factions among true Christians and by pretence of zeale by cloaked and coloured meanes seeke to draw into the church Antichrist backward as Cacus did the oxen into his denne Io. Whitgifte To these things y e Replier hath giuen his consent as it should séeme by his silence ¶ Articles collected out of the former Admonition and vntruly sayd of the fautors of that Admonition to be falsified To the end of the second Admonition there is ioyned A reprofe of certaine Articles collected as it is thought by the Bishops for so they say out of a litle booke entituled An Admonition to the Parliament c. But as I thinke it may rather be termed a recantation or if you will a reformatiō or mitigatiō of certen articles in that first admonition rashly setdowne without learning or discretion printed 1. Fol. 3. lib. 1. pag. 2. First they hold affirme that we in England are not yet Scarce the face of a Church come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Here you finde fault that this worde scarce is left out Indeede this word scarce was written in the margent of diuers copies of the first Admonition whether it were so in all or no I know not no more do I whether any such collectiō as you pretend was made But what neede you so muche sticke in wordes when the thing is manifest for in effect they denie as much as that proposition importeth they wholy condēne the mynisterie the ceremonies the gouernment of this church They say the sacraments be full of corruptions in theyr second Admonition Fol 42. they say that the sacraments are wickedly māgled prophaned they vtterly condēne our order māner of common prayer yea in effect our doctrine also for in their secōd Admonitiō Fol. 7 they say that although some truth be taught by some preachers yet no preacher may without daūger of the lawes vtter all truth comprised in the booke of God What can be spoken more slenderly of the doctrine preached in this church A mā may truly speake as much of the Romishe churche for some truthe is taught by some Papists yea some truth is taught by some Iewe Turke When therfore you say that in this church neither the worde is truly preached nor the sacramēts sincerely ministred nor yet Ecclesiasticall discipline which thre in the first Admonition Fol. 3. is sayde to be the outwarde markes whereby a true Christian church is knowne and also condemne our mynisterie as Popish and vnlawfull with the whole gouernment of Vix ▪ signifieth somtime non our Church as you do in playne termes may it not be truely sayde that you affirme vs in England as yet not to be come to the outward face of a church agreable to Gods worde Furthermore what doth this word scarce helpe the matter doth it not importe as much it is a rule in Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that vvhich is scarce done is not done T. C. Pag. 175. Sect. 3. 4. 5. As for Answere to the Articles collected out of the Admonition it is made in the Replie vnto M. Doctors booke where I haue shewed how the Admonition is misconstrued and taken otherwise than eytherit meameth or speaketh wherevnto I will referre the Reader And albeit I haue shewed how vntrue it is that the Admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England yet I can not passe by the secrete Philosophie whereby M. Doctor woulde proue that the Authors of the Admonition affirme it For sayth he by y e rule of Philosophie Quod vix fit non fit that which is scarse done is not done I say this is secrete for it was neuer taught neyther in Academia nor in stoa nor Lyceo I haue redde Quod fere fit non fit that which is almost done is not done But I neuer remember any such rule as M. Doctor speaketh of And besides that in our tongue those things which are sayd to be scarce are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be As when a man sayth that there is scarce a man aliue c. the scripture also vseth that phrase of speach of things which are as when it sayth the iust man shall scarce be saued it doth not meane that iust men shall not be saued The rest of that I haue answered Io. Whitgifte I proue by their owne manifest woordes that they in déede affirme that we in England are not yet come to the outwarde face of a Church agreable to Gods worde all whiche proofes you omit and let passe cauilling onely at this woorde scarce which is a manifest What y ◠word vix importeth argument of a wrangler And yet is not this manner of speaking Quod vix sit non sit so straunge Philosophie as you would gladly haue it for this woorde vix eyther signifieth with violence great difficultie to do a thing or else it is referred to the time or else it signifieth non as in Ouide vix Priamus tanti that is non tanti Priamus as Donatus doth expoūd it I thinke you will not haue it to be taken in the first significatiō by the Authors of y e Admonitiō for then there is no sense in their wordes if it be taken in either of the latter significations as it must of necessitie be then the Philosophie is not secrete ▪ but open and knowne to euery yong Grammarian In our English phrase it is commonly taken for non as when we say a thing is Vix in english commonly taken for non scarce done we signifie that is not yet done Likewise when a man sayth that he is scarce well he meaneth that he is not well He hath scarce made an end of his sermon ▪ y t is he hath not made an end of his sermon It is scarce ix of y e clocke that is it is not yet ix of the clocke Euen so we are scarce come to the outward forme of a church rightly reformed c. that is we are not yet come c. Euery child y t cā speake knoweth this to be so When the scripture saith that a iust man shall scarce be saued this woorde vix is taken in y e first significatiō that is with great difficultie in this signification it is oftētimes taken in the scripture but so can it not be in their manner of speach Ansvvere to certayne Articles c. 2. They will haue the mynisters to be called allowed and placed by the people You say that this Article is falsified yet their wordes in that place of their Admonition be these Then election was made by the cōmon consent of the whole Churche And a litle after Then no mynister was placed in any congregation without the consent of the people Wherfore the collection is very true and they belike ashamed of their
phansies they haue in this booke which they can not grounde vpon any scriptures but by wringing and wresting of them and in deede their seeking is to haue all things framed according to their fansies that they may be accompted planters and platformers of churches I omitte this that the author boasteth that he and many others will set thē selues against vs as the professed enimies of the churche of Christ For the matter is not great neither shall they in that point dea e an otherwyse with vs than the Anabaptistes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ther H e likes haue dealte with other Churches This shal be sufficiēt for an answere to y ◠booke bicause all other matters of substance are by me answered before in the former cōfutatiō Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered neither is this proclamation of defense solued A briefe ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets spread abroad of late I haue of late receiued three litle Pamphlets the first as it were a preface to the other two the second entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren The thirde An exhortation to the Bishops and their clergie to answere a litle booke that came foorth the last Parliament and to other brethren to iudge of it by Gods worde vntil they see it answered and not be carried away with any respect of men The preface cōsisteth of these pointes especially first by diuers exāples it is there declared that the wicked and vngodly of this world could neuer away with suche as would reproue them for their manifest sinnes and vngodlines Secondly that this is the cause why these twoo treatises whiche were lately written and imprinted in the laste Parliament time c. wer of so many misliked and the authors therof so cruelly entreated and streightly imprisoned c. Thirdly it raileth on the bishops and such as be in authoritie comparing them to false prophets and to Phariseis c. Last of all it cōcindeth with threatening that if they go forwarde in their synnes their doings shal be with more bitternes of wordes and plainenesse of speache throwen into their faces The first is nedelesse for who knoweth not that from time to time it hath bin the manner of such as were desperatly wicked not to suffer their sinnes openly to be reproued The second is false vncharitable slaunderous for the cause why the bookes be not estemed especially of the wise learned is the vntrue doctrine conteined in them mainteined with vntrue and v apt allegations of the scriptures and enterlaced with opprobrious termes and railing speaches tending to the disquietnes of the church and ouerthrow of true religiō The authors therof to be imprisoned not for telling any mā of his sinnes but for writing libels against this whole church of England against the booke of common praer against the ministery against y e sacraments finally against the whole forme and gouernmēt of the church by the whole consent of this Realme established and according to the rule of Gods word And with what face can you say that they be imprisoned for telling men of their sinnes where euer reade you or heard you that any of the Prophets or Apostles tolde men of their sinnes by libels Surely Libelling is no true way of reforming that kinde of dealing is not for the Apostles of Christe but for the ministers of Sathan T C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. here he saith the authors of the Admomtion are not punished or their booke misliked for that it telleth of the faults in the church or of the sinnes of men but for y t it mainteineth false doctrine for that they preferred a libel for the doctrine it appeareth by that which is said what it is And if he would define what a libel were ▪ it were easy to answere vnto the other point If he meane bicause it was preferred without any name vnto it how will he answere (*) Forsoo h 〈◊〉 you make wicked comparison to the example of S. Iohn in y e Apocalips who reprehend ng the ministers o diuers churches ▪ did not (a) A manifest vntruth put to his name vnto his book And to the writer of the Epistle vnto the Hebrewes ▪ which was a singular instrument and did not subscribe his epistle wherin notwithstāding he sharply rebuketh diuers faults amongst thē And yet S. Iohn nor the writer to the Hebrues were not the ministers of Satan And if he call it a libell bycause it vseth some sharper speaches surely all men see that his booke deserueth then to be called a Satyr hauing for tart words bitter and for one twenty But in what respect soeuer he calleth it a libell he accuseth not so much the authours of the Admonition for preferring of it as diuers of the honorable house of Parliament which did allow it Io. Whitgifte The comparison is very vnequall and odious that you make betwixte the holy bookes of the Scripture indited by the spirit of God and reputed and taken as portions of the canonicall scriptures wherein only we haue to séeke the doctrine of saluation and these rayling rude vncharitable and vnlearned Admonitions And yet in the one of them that is in the Reuelation you are fouly ouershot for the name of Iohn setteth his name to the Apocalips both in the beginning end the author of that booke is expressed thrée times in the firste chapter and that with such circumstances that it cannot well be doubted who the author was though you would cauill about the multiplicitie of the name Likewise his name is expressed in the latter chapter of the booke wherefore you were not well aduised when you set it downe that S. Iohn in the Apocalips did not put his name to his booke He saithe in the. 1. cap. in the first verse Seruo suo Iohanni and in the. 4. verse Ioannes 7. ecclesijs quae sunt in Asia and a little after Ego Ioannes frater vester c. and in the last chap. Ego Ioannes qui audiui vidi haec The epistle to the Hebrues hath no opprobrious and slanderous words in it neither doth the author thereof séeke to defame or deface any body as the authors of the Admonition do If my booke be comparable to eyther of the Admonitions in sharpe and vncharitable speaches proue it vnto me by comparing them togither and surely I will like the worse both of my boke and of my self and confesse that I haue offended Although I might excuse my selfe in saying that I haue done it in the defense of the truth and vendicating this Church of England from such vntollerable slanders as they burthen it with If any of the honorable house of Parliament did consent to the publishing of it in that manner and forme that it was published which I am sure they did not as you vndutifully and vntruly charge them I will not excuse them and yet they cannot be said to be either the authors or the publishers of it neither can their allowing of
husbandeman good Mat. 13. Mat. 22. Mat. 7. corne and for one that profitably heareth the word of God thrée doe the contrary as the parable of the sower declareth There be many called but fewe chosen And the gate is wyde that leadeth to perdition therefore it is no discredite to the Gospell or to the preaching thereof nor yet to the good gouernment of the Church to haue many wicked and vngodly persons which cannot possible be rooted out vntill the time of Harnest but this hath béen alwayes an Anabaptisticall cauill against the true Church of Christ and lawfull gouernment thereof as Bullinger declareth Lib. aduersus Anabap. Bullinger And vndoubtedly if this were a good argument to proue that the Gospell is not preached sincerely then Esai Ieremie and other of the Prophetes which had preached among the people many yeares and smally preuayled with them either concerning doctrine or manners preached not sincerely Wheras you say that in the Church of Christ there be no drunkards or whoremongers at the least which are knowne c. either doe you greatly ouershoote your selfe and forget the great crimes that were knowne to be in the Church of Corinthe or else woulde you secretly bring in the error of the Anabaptistes which say that not to be the true Church of Christ in the which there appeareth manifest crymes for the declaration of the A branch of Anabaptisme which error and confutation also I referre you to the thirde booke of Bul ▪ aduersus Anabap and the. 2. and. 3. chapter where you may likewise learne what profite hath cenie to this and the like Churches where the Gospell is professed by the preaching of the word though many wicked still remaine in the same I graunt you that these vyces when they be knowne ought to be punished But if eyther bycause those that be in authoritie doe not their duetie therein or else those vices continue notwithstanding therfore you will conclude that this is not the Church of Christ I tell you plainely that you haue already entred into one branche of Anabaptisme It cannot be denyed but that the euill are continually mirt with the good in thys world euen in the most purest Church and that then they abound especially when the Gospell is in prosperitie so that this is a good cause why the election of ministers may not safely be committed to the common people Chap. 6. the third Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Sect 4. Thirdly in the Apostles time all that professed Christ had knowledge The people now ignorant and not able to iudge and wereable to iudge who were meete to be theyr pastour Nowe the most be ignorant and wythout iudgement in suche matters T. C ▪ Pag. 34. Sect. 2. If they had knowledge then it was bycause they were taughte and that they are ignorant You make a digression and answere not the reason nowe it is bycause they haue no good ministers to teache them and if the Churches should choose their ministers I am sure they could not choose worse than for the most part they haue nowe being thrust vpon them Io. Whitgifte They were then diligently taughte and they gaue them selues wholy to learne bycause it was a time of persecution in the which men be commonly beste disposed and sequestred as it were from all worldly cares lookyng continually to fall into the handes of the persecutors nowe thoughe they be in diuerse places well taught yet bycause they haue not suche a sense and féeling of the worde in the tyme of prosperitie as they haue vnder the crosse when the Churche of Christe is purest the election of theyr Ministers can not be so safely committed vnto them nowe as it myghte be then But why haue you not answered my reason for as yet that is vntouched Chap. 6. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 1. Fourthly in the Apostles tyme there was in the Churche no Idolaters The churche now full of Papistes and Atheistes c. no superstitious persons no Papistes nowe the Church is full of Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke who seeth not therfore what straunge ministers we should haue if the election of thē were committed to their seuerall parishes T. C. Pag. 34. Sect. 3. I see that when a man is out of his waye the further he goeth the worse Before you placed in the churche whoremongers and drunkardes as filthie swine in the Lordes courtes nowe you bryng in Papistes Idolaters and Atheistes whyche are not onely filthie but also poysoned and venomed beastes I am not ignorant of that distinction whyche sayth that there be in the Churche whiche are not of the Churche and those are Hypocrites as is before sayde but I woulde gladly learne of you what Scripture there is to proue that Idolaters and Papistes and Atheistes are in the Churche when Saynte Paule (a) The place is not rightly vn calleth all suche without the churche and wyth whome the Churche hathe nothyng to doe nor they with the churche you mighte as well haue placed in the churche Wolues Tigers Lions and Beares that is tyrants and persecutors For those ye speake of and in the iudgement of men and of the churche as well shut oute of it as they in the eye of the Lorde they maye be of the churche and so maye and are sometymes the persecutors them selues so that the election of the churche is not nor oughte not to be hyndered by those that haue nothyng to doe wyth it But nowe I heare you aske me what then shall become of the Papistes and Atheistes if you will not haue them be of the churche I answere that they may (b) This is true in the common wealth of the Turke but not in this common wealth be of and in the common wealth whiche neyther may nor can be of nor in the churche And therefore the churche hauing nothyng to doe with suche the Magistrate (c) Where finde you this ought ▪ oughte to see that they ioyne to heare the Sermons in the place where they are made whether it be in those parishes where there is a churche and so preaching or where else he shall thinke beste and cause them to be examined howe they profitte and if they profit not to punishe them and as their contempt groweth so to encrease the punishment vntill suche tymes as they declare manifest tokens of vn epentantnesse and then as rotten members that doe not onely no good nor seruice in the body but also corrupt and infect others cut them off And if they do profit in hearing then to be adioyned vnto that church which is next the place of their dwelling Io. Whitgifte How Papist c. be in the Church You muste of necessitie admitte this distinction some be of the Church and some be only in the Church else can you not make any visible Church for we only know who be in the Churche but who be of the Churche is knowne
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
the Christ nor Elias nor the prophet now there is a great difference betwixt these two kynde of speaches if thou be not of the Prophets and if thou be not the Prophet For the first signifieth that they should aske him whether he were any of the Prophets the other whether he were that prophet whom they looked for to be suche a one as Moyses was according to that which is written Deut. 18. vers 15. for else Iohn wold Deut. 18. not haue denied himself to haue bin a Prophet seeing that Christ sayth he was one Math. 11. Moreouer they aske him not of those ordinarie functions that were then in Math. 11 ▪ the Church but of such extraordinarie persons as they looked for to come as Christ Elias or that prophete Thirdly they did not recite all the ordinarie functions as Leuite and Priest whiche were then most ordinarie and almost only at that tyme so that your reason hath neyther forme nor truth in it Chap. 1. the eight Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 4. Let the whole practise of the church vnder the law be looked vpon it shall not be founde that any other ecclesiastcal ministerie was appointed thā those orders of high priest and priests and Leuites c. which were apointed by the law of God and if there were any raised extraordinarily the fame had their calling confirmed from heauen either by signes or miracles or by playne and cleere testimonies of the mouth of God or by extraordinarie exciting and mouing of the spirite of God So that it appeareth that the ministerie of the gospell and the functions therof ought to be from heauen and of God and not inuented by the braines of men from heauen I say and heauenly bicause although it be executed by earthly men and the ministers also are chosen by men like vnto themselues yet bicause it is done by the worde and institution of god that hath not only ordeyned that the worde should be preached but hath ordeined also in what order and by whome it should be preached it may be well accompted to come from heauen and from god Io. Whitgifte Neyther is there any new ministerie or order appointed in this churche bicause The Archbishop no new ministerie there be Archbishops For Archbishops be ministers of the word and Sacramentes and Quoad ministerium do not differ from other pastors in respect of whom they are called Archbishops but touching order gouernment as you may reade afterwarde in the answere to the admonition So that all this which is here spoken is grounded vpon a false principle For you would make the reader beléeue that to institute an Archbishop is to institute a newe ministerie wherein you are maruellously ouershot The Iewes had gouernment in their church and superioritie in the ecclesiasticall estate and so haue we But you may not tie the church of Christ to the patterne of the Iewes synagoge for that were to make it seruile Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 5. Seing therfore that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon are not in the worde W ake proofes must needes inferre a weak conclusion of god it followeth that they are of the earth and so can do no good but much harme in the church And if any man will say that we do the Church great iniurie bicause we doe tye hir to a certayne number of orders of ministers as it were to a stake so that we may not deuise new functions I say that both the church and Christ dothe accuse him againe Christ esteemeth himself to haue iniurie bicause that by this meanes he is imagined not to haue bene carefull and prouident enough for his churche in that he hath left the ministerie wherin doth consist the lyfe of the church being that whereby it is begotten so rawly and vnperfect that by permitting it to the ordering of men there is a greate danger of errour whiche he might haue set without all daunger by a woorde or two speaking Io. Whitgifte Your proofes hitherto alleadged are moste insufficient to iustiste this conclusion and yet doe you boldly goe on as though all were sure This is but beldenesse and confidencie it is not sounde and pithie dealing I still denie that there is any other ministerie in the Churche bycause there are Archebishops than is by the worde of God confirmed But you haue not yet proued by either Scripture or reason that there oughte not to be gouernours or superiors among the ministers of the Gospel to whome any other names may be giuen than is expressed in the word which you ought to proue else you doe but dallie and studie with vayne wordes to enlarge your booke It is manyfest that Christ hath left the gouernment of his Church touching the externall policie in sundrie points to the ordering of men who haue to make orders and lawes for the same as tyme place and person requireth so that nothing bée done contrary to his worde as it is before proued Tract 2. and shall be more hereafter Chap. 1. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 6. The Churche of the other syde ryseth against him for that he maketh Christ lesse careful for hir than he was for that vnder the law For 〈◊〉 me in the whole volume of the testament is there any kinde or degree of ministerie wherof God is not the certaine and expresse author Was there euer any man I except Ieroboam and such prophane men either so holie or so wyse or of such great knowledge y t euer did so much as dreame of instituting of a newe ministerie After the long wandring of the arke in the wildernesse when it came to be placed in Ierusalem tell me if any besydes the Leuites and priests the ordinarie ministers and the prophetes whiche were unmediatly stirred vp of God were found to haue ordeined any office or title which was not commaunded or whether there was at any tyme any thing added or enioyned to those offices of priesthobe and Leuiteship which was not by the lawe prescribed Io. Whitgifte Surely here is nothing but vaine repetitions of that false principle whervpon thys tantalogie and multiplication of wordes is buylded that is y t the institution of T. C faulteth still in the petition of the principle an Archbishop is the institution of a new ministerie as though the apostle S. Paule whē he placed Timothie at Ephesus Titus at Creta did institute a new ministerie bicause he gaue thē authoritie iurisdiction ouer y e rest as it is afterward proued or the Church whē it did apoynt one amōg the Bishops to gouern the rest in Scismatis remedium to remedie schismes as Hierom sayth as it shall more at large hereafter be declared Neyther can it therfore be sayde that Christe doth shew him selfe lesse Christe is not lesse carefull for this churche than for that vnder the lawe carefull for his church than he did for that vnder the lawe
For his carefulnesse appeareth and consisteth in this that he hath nowe muche more playnly set down the doctrine of saluation in all pointes than it was in the law and hath also ordeyned that there shoulde be not only fit ministers to publish that doctrine but offices also to gouerne the people in godlinesse As for names and titles other externall things variable according to diuers circumstances he hath left them to the libertie of his Churche as I haue before declared which is one part of his singular goodnesse towardes the Churche in that it is not so seruilely tyed to externall things and to the letter as it was vnder the lawe And it is euidēt that vnder the law there were offices titles in the church which Titles offices in y e church vnder the law where God is not y e chief author are not cōmaunded in the scripture nor wherof we reade God to haue bene the expresse author As Archisynagogus Mar. 5. Scribae or legis doctores 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or magistratus seu duces templi Luc. 22. vers 52. and those seniores populi and that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whervpon you ground your seigniorie For M. Caluin vpon the. 18. of Math. sayth that this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was apoynted after the children of Israell returned from the captiuitie of Babylon Chap. 1. the eleuenth Diuision T C. Page 63. Sect. 1. All men know that the Arke of Noah was a figure of the church Noah was both a wise and a godlie man yet what doth the Lorde leaue to his wisedome when as he appointeth the matter the forme the length the breadth the height the wood the kynd and sorte of wood Io. Whitgifte All men knowe howe vncertaine a reason it is that is grounded vpon figures and Uncertaine reaso ing of figures and allegories 〈◊〉 le t to 〈◊〉 no ded Gen. 8. types excepte the application therof may be founde in the Scriptures For a man may applie them as it pleaseth him euen as he may doe allegories and yet was there manie things required to the Arke whereof there is no expresse mention made and namely nayles or pinnes to ioyn it together neither is it expressed whether the window was of glasse or of chrystal or of neyther Moreouer he is not prescribed to make a couer for it and yet it had one as is declared cap. 8. The ouerseers and maisters of the woorke lykewyse are not there appoynted but lefte to the discretion of Noah There are many other thinges required to the making of suche an Arke whereof there is no expresse mention in that place To conclude Noah beeing in the Arke did thinges which the Scripture dothe not expresse that he was commaunded to do as when he sente out the Rauen and the Doue c. cap. 8. Wherefore I say with M. Caluin in 6. genes Caluin Arcam fuisse Ecclesiae imaginem certum est teste Petro verùm singulas eius parteis ad ecclesiam aptare minime consentaneum est It is certaine that the Arke was a figure of the church by the testimonie of Peter but it is not mete to applie euerie parte thereof vnto the Churche Chap. 1. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Page 63. Sect. 4. In the tabernacle the Church is yet more expressely shewed foorth Moyses that was the ouerseer of the worke was a wise and godly man the artificers that wrought it Bezalaell and Aholiab most cunning workmen and yet obserue how the Lord ▪ leaueth nothing to their will but telleth not only of the bourdes of the courtanes of the apparell but also of the barres of the rings of the strings of the bookes of the beesoms of the snuffers and of the thinges the matter and the form Io. Whitgifte It is well knowen that the Israelites had long continued among the Egyptians a Why God ap pointed so ma ny ceremonies to the Israelites most superstitious kind of people without any law of God written and therfore now being deliuered from them and yet inclined to their Idolatrie God as most writers thinke of his infinite wisedome did so charge them with ceremonies of his owne institution that they should neyther haue leysure to vse any other nor yet desire the Egiptiacall kind of worshipping Touching the tabernacle and the particular description of things perteining to the Pellican same I say with Pellicane These things are particularly described according to the word of the Lord that the people might know that they ought not so much to obey Moyses precepts as the will of God in building the Tabernacle and in freely offering to the same their gold their siluer their brasse their purple c. the which otherwise they would haue abused to their owne vanities and that also they might not be without that bewtie in ceremonies and worshipping of God which they see among the Gentiles Moreouer that they mighte haue matter to occupie them with least they shoulde fall to slothfulnesse and idlenesse So that of this place it may be well gathered that nothing wherein the worship of God doth consist is to be vsed without his prescription but how you can aptly apply thys figure to the externall gouernment and pollicie of the Church I cannot well vnderstand and if you may so vse it yet do you but allegory which is no good kind of proofe bycause allegories may be applyed according to euery particular mans inuention But all that can be truely gathered of this figure is as I haue saide before that Calui e. 35. Exo. in expos 2. praecept ▪ no kynde of worship may be broughte into the Churche of God whiche is not grounded vppon hys woorde and therefore Ma. Caluine speaking of thys tabernacle saythe that God gaue preceptes of the tabernacle and thynges perteyning to it Ne externa pietatis exercitia quae vidimus fuisse admodùm necessaria populum deficerent Least the people should wante the outwarde exercises of godlynesse which we see to haue bene verie necessarie And againe he sayth that when Moyses in the mountaine dydde sée the example of the Tabernacle he was then instructed De vero Dei cultu mysterijs of the true worship of God and of heauenly mysteries And againe speaking of this Tabernacle he sayth Lex Iudaeos ad spiritualem solum Dei cultum instituit sed ceremonijs vestitum vt ferebat temporis ratio The lawe did institute the Iewes only to the spirituall vvorship of God but yet couered with ceremonies as the tyme required Therfore in this figure there was only expressed what shoulde be done in the worshipping of God and not in the externall policie and gouernment of the Churche Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 63. Sect. 3. Let vs come to the temple which as it was more nere the tyme of Chryst so it doth more liuely expresse the Chur he of God whiche nowe is Salomon the wyse t man that euer was or shall be doth
beware of this doctrine the whiche vnlesse I proue to be the selfe same with the Papistes in substance let me susteine that punishement that is due vnto them whome I burden charge with forgetfulnes of dutie in this poynt Saunders in that trayterous booke of his wryteth thus That hath deceiued many Saunders the Rep er agree bicause they see kings to be Christians and to rule ouer Christians for they knowe not or at the least they will not knowe what difference there is whether thou rule ouer a Christian in that he is a Christian or in that he is a man For a king ruleth ouer Christian men but not Saunders bicause they bee Christians but bicause they bee men and bicause byshoppss be men in that respect he ruleth also ouer them c. And. T. C. in his Reply pag. 35. writeth on this Pag. 5. in the miast manner saying That the godlye Magistrate is the head of the common wealth but not of the churche meaning that particular churche conteyned in the common wealth whereof he is gouernour and in the same page he saith that the Christian Magistrate is but only a member of that particular churche And pag 145. he sayeth That the Prynce may well bee Pag. 〈◊〉 Sed 1. Monarche immediatly betwene God and the common wealth and not betwene God the church in that common wealth or any singular member in the church and in this place he would haue the ciuill Magistrate no more to intermedle with making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders than the ecclesiasticall minister should deale with ciuill diuers such nippes and pinches he hath at the ciuill Magistrate speaking no other wyse of hym than of a Turke or a Iewe and giuing him no more authoritie in the church of Christe and ouer Christians than if hee were the great Turke or wicked Nero. But I answere them bothe with the wordes of M. Musculus in his common places Titu de Magistratu Let Ethnickes and infidels whiche liue not in the vnitie of truthe but in the confusion of errour haue their diuers lawes Musculus and magistrates some prophane and some holy whose whole life is prophane whose religion is but ecclesiasticall superstition and in the temple only Christian people are altogether hely and dedicated to the name of Christe not in temples only and ecclesiasticall rites but in their whole life in euery place at al times in all things in al deedes and studies that according to the admonitiō of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eate or drinke or whatsoeuer he doth all may be done to the glory of God and Col. 3. whatsoeuer he doth in woorde or in deede hee doe it in the name of the Lorde c. VVherefore that distinction of Ecclesiasticall prophane lawes hath no place in it bicause there is nothing in it that is prophane seeing it is a people holy to the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie is holy his lawes are holy his sword is holy a reuenger of the wicked and vngodly whereby he serueth the Lorde being the chiefe lawmaker and iudge our members are the members of Christ and our bodies are the bodies of the holy ghost we are willed to glorifie God not in our spirit onely but in our bodie also 1. Cor. 6. Therefore this be sarre 〈◊〉 authoritie Pap t s giue to the 〈◊〉 in ec 〈◊〉 from the church of Christ that it should be partly holy and partly prophane holy before and prophane behinde lyke vnto an Idoll which sheweth beautifull before and behinde is full of filth and Spyders webbes Againe the Papistes giue to the Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters Potestatem facti and not iuris that is to sée those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Clergie shall make and to bée as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes or orders in Ecclesiastical matters for so writeth Saunders in his book before named Fol. 64. Although I doe not denye but that the knowledge of a Saunders facte that belongeth to the ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to kings and Magistrates and before the ecclesiastical cause be determined the king may vse his authoritie to this end that there may be some quiet place prepared where the bishops shall cōsulte and that the bishops be called to the same place at a certein day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining cōmon peace may be preserued euen among the priests them selues to conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the priests the king may punishe him with the sworde which he carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishmēt which shal refuse to obey the sentence of the priests Therfore we do not deny but that kings haue something to do both before and at and after the iudgements of the bishops but in the office of iudging they haue no more to do than other priuate persons for they may well giue councell and declare what they thinke but they may not determine or define what Gods lawes or the ecclesiastical lawe doth require And doth not T. C. in this place affirme the Potestas facti not iuris ascribed to the magistrates same onely herein he séemeth something to differ y t if the ecclesiastical gouernours shall make any orders vnmeete the magistrate may driue them to better But what if they saye they be méete will stand to it as you do now in this fonde platforme will they not crye out vpon the magistrate saye that he is a persecutour a mainteiner of an vnlawfull authoritie of that which is against the glorie of God if he withstande thē as the authours of the seconde Admonition do in playne termes saying For though the orders be and ought to be drawen out of the booke of God yet it is her Maiestie that by her princely 2. Admonit pag. 60. authoritie should see euery of these thyngs put in practise and punyshe those that neglect them making lawes therefore for the churche may keepe those orders but neuer in peace except the comfortable and blessed assistance of the states and gouernours imcke in to see them in their countreis and vsed for otherwyse the church maye and must keepe Gods orders but alwaies in troubles and persecution which is like to light vpon vs except a reformation of religion or a direct prouiso for vs bee made for surely only this is God his order and ought to be vsed in his churche so that in conscience we are forced to speake for it and to vse it and in conscience and in reuerence of God we are forced to speake as we do of that reformation which we nowe vse not so much for ought else as to set out the deformities thereof that we might thinke vpon the amending of them M. Musculus in the booke and title before recited setteth out this Popish