times and so their interpretations of Scriptures often more difficult to be understood then the Scriptures that they interpret this also is very considerable that it will be out of the compass and reach of the most persons of ordinary rank to procure all the writings of the Fathers and Councils that are yet extant as we do not beleeve that any of you are so well stored as that you have such a Library wherein all the Fathers or most of them might be consulted which yet were necessary to be procured if their unanimous consent must be the rule for interpretation of Scripture when there is a doubt or difficulty And if some persons might be found of that ability as to procure the Works of all the Fathers yet it is not easie to imagin how even the Learned though Divines much less the simple and ignorant could ever be able to reade over all their Works compare all the Fathers together and their interpretations that so they might when there was a doubt or difficulty gather what was the unanimous consent of the Fathers touching the interpretation of a Text the sense whereof we questioned And hereupon it will follow that what you propound as the rule yea and the best rule too for interpreting of Scripture is so farre from being such that it is a very unfit and unmeet rule being such as few or none if any at all are able in all cases or the most to make use of But by this time we doubt not notwithstanding your great confidence touching the sureness of your rule that it is manifest from the reasons we have given unto which we might add many more if there were need that your rule for the interpretation of the Scriptures participates not of the nature of what is to be a rule and therefore however the exposition of the Church Fathers and Councils is not to be despised yet it is not to be made a rule but that the onely sure rule for the interpreting of the Scriptures is the Scripture it self But because you alledge something for your assertion we shall now in the last place examine it of what nature and strength it is And â— You quote the late King in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 although his assertion is more limited then yours as from the words you cite is clear and manifest And as touching that which his words are alledged for we must say that such a Church Government as is not found instituted in Scripture in regard of the substantials of it is therefore contrary to the commands of Scripture because not found instituted there and this we affirm touching that Episcopall Government that you plead for that superiority of a Bishop above a Presbyter in regard of order and jurisdiction being a meer device of man without and against Scripturall warrant as it was that that was unknown to the primitive Church in the more ancient and purer times and of which afterward 2. But you further add and say that except your rule for interpreting of Scripture be admitted of we shall seem to abound in our own sense and to utter our own fancies or desires to be believed on our bare word and so to give way to private interpretation whereas we should deliver that sense which hath been aforetime given by our forefathers and forerunners in the Christian faith unto which we say that whether it be the interpretation that we ourselves shall give of Scripture or it be the interpretation of others however Fathers or Councils and forerunners in the Christian faith yet if it be an interpretation inferred or brought to the Scripture and not found in the Scripture the uttering of that interpretation is the uttering our own or other mens fancies and so is that private interpretation of Scripture which the Apostle Peter 2d Epist ch 1. ver 20. condemns and to whose words there you do here point it being the Holy Ghost the author of Scripture whose interpretation is that publike interpretation that the whole Church and every member thereof is to give heed to and is that which is opposed to the private interpretation mentioned as the Apostle shews ver 21. in the words following But seeing you do here urge the very popish argument and that text which they quote touching the rule they make for interpretation of Scripture in direct opposition to our Protestant Divines it is hence very clear that your opinion touching the rule of interpreting of the Scriptures and judg of controversies in matters of Religion which you make to be the Churches exposition and consent of Fathers and Councils is the very same with theirs and wherein you approve not your selves to be either sound Protestants or to own the Doctrine of the Church of England against the Papists in this particular 3. Yet you go on and urge another argument for when there is a difference about interpretation of Scripture not to admit for a rule the exposition of the Church consent of Fathers and Councils you say that is dominari fidei to Lord it over the faith of others but we say as we have shewed before that to impose a necessity of admitting the interpretation given by the Church Fathers Councils when it is not evident from the Text so expounded either the words of it scope or other circumstances of it the things going before or following after or from some other Texts with which it is compared this is certainly dominari fidei to Lord it over the faith of Gods people and which Paul though so great an Apostle and immediately and infallibly inspired would not presume to do 2 Cor. 1. â—4 The Church having onely a Ministery committed to her which is onely to propound that sense of Scripture which the Scripture it self gives and no more 4. But thus say you the best and ablest defenders of our Protestant Religion defended it against the Papists though out of the word of God too giving the sense which the Fathers unanimously in the Primitive Church and Councils gave But this is not the question whether our Divines defended the Protestant Religion against the Papists not onely out of the Word of God but from the testimonie also of Fathers and Councils but whether they did ever make the unanimous consent of the Fathers and Councils the judg of controversies or rule for interpreting of Scripture He that shall hold the affirmative here doth plainly shew he is a stranger to the writings of the best and ablest defenders of the Protestant Religion We shall readily grant that our Divines do ex super abundanti defend the truth against the Papists from the testimony of Fathers and Councils but did never assert that the defence of it from the Scriptures alone was not sufficient as they would never have quarrelled with the Papists touching the judg of controversies and the rule for interpretation of Scripture if they would have been contented to have stood to its determination It s true Mr. Philpot that glorious
God in his Word for the information of the ignorant but in what way of Catechizing as is expressed in our Paper the ignorant in our Congregations who never offered themselves unto the Sacrament were most like to be brought to some measure of knowledge and which is not a matter of Doctrine but of Order onely Neither was it by us submitted to that Assembly whether the censures of the Church were the meanes appointed by Christ for the reforming of the scandalous But whether it might not be meet pro hic nunc and as the present case stood to apply the censures and so put in practice at this time that which in the General we were sufficiently assured from the word of Truth was the way for their reformation and with which we were both by God and Man intrusted to dispense unto those that were openly scandalous in our Congregations However they contented themselves to live in the want of the Lords Supper nor ever presented themselves to the Eldership to be admitted to it And this because meerly circumstantial as to the dispensing of the Censures at this time and to such Persons we think herein we owed the Provincial Assembly unto whose Authority we professe our selves to be subject so much respect and duty as to submit our apprehensions in a case of this nature which they had propounded unto us to be seriously weighed as they had done to the rest of the Classes within this Province unto their Judgement and to take their concurrent approval along with us before we proceeded to practise in a matter of this weight And yet we have declared before That however we are not so wavering and unsettled in matters of faith as to resolve our belief into the determination of Synods or Councils believing no more nor no otherwise then as they determine Yet that it is not out of the compasse of the authority of a Synod to examine try and authoritatively to censure Doctrines as well as matters of Discipline And we think how confident soever you may be of the soundnesse and orthodoxnesse of what in your Paper you propound in way of exception against any thing in ours you have not such clear and unquestionable grounds from Scripture for the same that you were to be accused of wavering or unsettledness if you had submitted the same to have been examined and tried by a Provincial Assembly and much lesse if you could have had the opportunity of submitting it to the Censure of a General Council But whereas mentioning our Provincial Assembly at Preston you call it a new termed Provincial Assembly If your meaning be that the terming it a Provincial Assembly instead of a Provincial Synod is a new term then this is but onely a Logomachia and not much to be insisted on Although we frequently call it a Provincial Synod as well as a Provincial Assembly But if your meaning be That it is a new termed Provincial Assembly at Preston Because Provinciall Synods or Assemblies have been held but lately at Preston we see not if Provincial Assemblies be warrantable and have been of ancient use in the Church that having been long in dis-use they began of late to be held at Preston that can justly incurre your censure But if the Antiquity of such Assemblies be that you question Then we referre you to what Doctor Bernard in the Book of his above quoted shews was the Judgement of Doctor Vsher who is acknowledged by all that knew him or are acquainted with his works to have been a great Antiquary however we alleadge him not that you should build your faith upon his Testimony and which we think may be sufficient to vindicate Provincial Assemblies in your thoughts from all suspition of novelty In that Book you have in the close of it proposals touching the Reduction of Episcopacy unto the form of Synodical Government received in the ancient Church And it thus begins By the Order of the Church of England all Presbyters are charged to administer the Doctrine and Sacraments and the Discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded and as this Realm hath received And that they might the better understand what the Lord hath commanded herein The exhortation of Paul to the Elders of Ephesus Acts 20. 28. is appointed to be read unto them at the time of their Ordination A little after it is aknowledged That Ignatius by Presbytery mentioned by Paul 1 Tim. 4. 14. did understand the Community of the rest of the Presbyters or Elders who then had a hand not onely in the delivery of the Doctrine and Sacraments but also in the administration of the Discipline of Christ And for further proof Tertullian is alleadged in his Generall Apologie for Christians Where he saith that in the Church are used exhortations chastisements and divine censure For Judgement is given with great advice as among those who are certain they are in the sight of God And it is the chiefest foreshewing of the Judgement to come if any man have so offended that he be banished from the Communion of Prayer and of the Assembly and of all holy Fellowship The Presidents that bear rule therein are certain approved Elders who have obtained this honour not by reward but by good report There also is further shewed That in matters of Ecclesiastical judicature Cornelius Bishop of Rome used the received form of gathering together the Presbytery And that Cyprian sufficiently declares of what Persons that consisted When he wisheth him to read his Letter to the flourishing Clergy which there did preside or rule with him And further That in the fourth Council of Carthage it was concluded That the Bishop might hear no mans cause without the presence of the Clergy And that otherwise the Bishops sentence should be void unlesse it were confirmed by the Clergy And yet further That this is found inserted into the Canons of Egbert who was Archbishop of York in the Saxon times and afterwards into the body of the Canon law it self It is here also acknowledged That in our Church this kind of Presbyterian Government hath been much disused Yet that it did professe that every Pastor hath a right to rule the Church from whence also the name of Rector was at first given to him and administer the Discipline of Christ as well as to dispense the Doctrine and Sacraments c. By all which it is acknowledged and also proved That the form of Government by the united suffrages of the Clergy is ancient and which is there in express termes asseâ—ted as it might be demonstrated by many more Testimonies but that we conceive these already mentioned are sufficient and being alleadged by the aforementioned Author As also evidencing what his own Judgement was in this point may be more likely to sway with you if in that there should be a dissent betwixt you and us then any thing that we could our selves produce But in this reduction of Episcopacy to the form of Synodical Government
Brethren of one and the same Church and Fellowship And we know not what other Church you mean but the Church of England some of you that are the Subscribers of this Paper not being Members of the particular Church at Manchester nor any of you acknowledging or owning our Presbyterian Classicall Church or Association And therefore you here take us to be of the same Church of England with your selves and confess that we are in fellowship with it notwithstanding Episcopacy be taken away and which is that which we our selves do constantly profess 2. That that Episcopacy that was submitted to by the Ministers of this Land of later times was burthensome and grievous It spoyled the Pastors of that power which of right did belong unto them and which they did not onely anciently exercise as Doctor Vsher shews in his Reduction of Episcopacy to the form of Synodicall Government received in the ancient Church Pag. 3 4 5. but which also by the order of the Church of England as the same Author out of the Book of Ordination shews did belong unto them For he there saith By the Order of the Church of England all Presbyters are charged to administer the Doctrine and Sacraments and the Discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded and as this Realm hath received and that they might better understand what the Lord hath commanded them the Exhortation of St. Paul to the Elders of the Church of Ephesus is appointed to be read unto them at the time of their Ordination Take heed unto your selves and to all the Flock among whom the Holy-ghost hath made you Overseers to rule the Congregation of God which he hath purchased with his blood All which power the Pastors were deprived of during the prevalency of Episcopacy the Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven being taken out of their hands they having neither power to cast out of the Church the vilest of Offenders that were often kept in against their minds nor any power to restore into the Churches Communion such as had been never so unjustly excommunicated though of the best of their Flock And so that Episcopacy that formerly was submitted unto was a plain and manifest usurpation upon the Pastors Office and Authority was very oppressive and grievous unto the Church and injurious to her Communion and whereupon it will follow that there is no breach of that Union which ought to be maintained in the Church by not admitting of it again but rather the Churches peace the power that of right belongs unto the Pastors and the Priviledges of the Members are all better secured in the absence then in the presence of it 3. That however both godly Conformists as well as Nonconformists did groan under the burthensomness of it yet in licitis honest is they submitted and yielded Obedience to it whilst it continued established by the Laws of the Land And that out of respect to the peace of the Church although they did not thereby take themselves obliged to forbeare the use of any lawfull means for their deliverance from that bondage as opportunity was offered And hereupon they petitioned the Parliament of late for an abolition of it as had been formerly desired in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth and King James as when other Laws have been found to be inconvenient and mischievous it was never accounted any disturbance of the civil peace to remonstrate the grievousness of such Laws to the Parliament that they might be abolished 4. Let it also be further weighed that that Episcopacy to which you would perswade us by this Argument to return is now abolished and taken away by the Authority of Parliament as appears by the Acts and Ordinances for that purpose See them cited in our Animadversions on your next Paper Sect. 4. And therefore both the Bishops as such and that Superiority which they challenged and exercised over the Ministers in this Land are dead in Law and so there can be no guilt of Schisme lying on the Ministers in this Land for not returning to that Canonicall Obedience that is not hereupon any longer due or for not submitting themselves to that power and jurisdiction that is extinct There is the greater strength in this consideration if it be observed 1. That whatever Jurisdiction the Diocesan Bishops did exercise over Presbyters they did obtain onely by the Law of the Land and Canon of the Church 2. That the Parliament did lawfully take away that Jurisdiction from them and had therein the concurrence of a reverend and learned Assembly of Divines The first of these Propositions is clear upon this consideration that the Scripture makes a Bishop and a Presbyter all one This is clear from Titus 1. Ver. 5. compared with the seventh whence it appears that those whom the Apostle had called Elders or Presbyters Ver. 5. he calls Bishops Ver. 7. And indeed otherwise he had reasoned very inconsequently when laying down the qualifications of Elders Ver. 6. he saith Ver. 7. For a Bishop c. For a Bishop must be blameless Whereunto may be added that other known place Act. 20. 17. compared with Ver. 28. For the Apostle saith to those Elders that the Holy-ghost had made them Bishops or Overseers of the Church Besides what Office the Bishops had that the Elders had Both are charged to feed the Flock of Christ Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 12. and which is both by Doctrine and Government The Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven were committed to them Mat. 16. 19. both the Key of Doctrine and the Key of Discipline The former is not denyed and for the other it is proved from 1 Thes 5. 12. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 17 24. where we see they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that are over them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that rule well 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that rule And for power to Ordain we may see its plain from 1 Tim. 4. 14. where Timothy is charged not to neglect the Gift that was in him which was given him by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery This Text you your selves tell us in your next Paper Sect. 5. is understood by the Greek Fathers as Ignatius Chrysostome Theodoret Theophylact Oecumenius and others and some few of the Latines also Of the company of Presbyters i. e. Bishops who lay hands on the new made Bishops or Priests But from these several Texts thus urged it is very manifest that the Scripture makes a Bishop and a Presbyter both one or one and the same order of Ministry And hereupon it follows that whatever Jurisdiction the Diocesan Bishops exercised over Presbyters they had it not by Divine Right but obtained it onely by the Law of the Land and Canon of the Church And thus the first Proposition is clear We now come to make good the second And that the Parliament did lawfully take away the Jurisdiction and whole Office of Diocesan Bishops
end of the World in a succession of a lawfull ordained Ministry And in your next Paper you falling foule upon us and charging us with a rent indeed a Schisme in the highest you add which is not satisfied but with the utter overthrow of the Church from whom they rent Here you lay a great stress upon Episcopacy and such an one as none of our true Protestant Divines that defend the truth of our own and other reformed Churches against the Papists would ever have layd upon it But here two things are hinted which we shall severally examine 1. You intimate that by the taking away of Episcopacy the Church is overthrowne it cannot be continued amongst us from Age to Age to the end of the World except Episcopacy be restored 2. But yet there is a further Implication sc That there cannot be a Succession of a lawfull ordained Ministry which Succession yet you intimate to be necessary to the being of the Church if we have not Bishops againe that may Ordain 1. Unto the first of these we shall answer after we have premised a distinction touching the word Church For either the Church of God amongst us which you here speak of is taken essentially for that part of the Catholick visible Church which in regard of the place of its abode in this Land is called the Church of England as the severall parts of the Sea which yet is but one receive their Denomination from the Shoares they wash Or else you take the word Church for a Ministeriall Church or for the Church represensative as it is taken Matth. 18. 27. This premised we answer If you take the word Church in the former sense your Position is very gross no other then this that for want of Bishops the whole Church of England is at present overthrowne and that there is no way of recovery of it but by the restoring of them and so in the mean season it is no Church with whom we may safely hold Communion which layes a Foundation for separation from it and of Apostasie unto Rome where Bishops may be had We shall therefore to this say no more but onely mind you of what is well observed by Mr. Baxter out of B. Jewell in the defence of the Agreement of the Worcestershire Ministers Page 58. where he hath these words B. Jewell in his defence of the Apology Authorised to be kept in all Churches Part 2. Page 131. Neither doth the Church of England depend on them whom you so often call Apostates as if our Church were no Church without them They are no Apostates Mr. H c. Notwithstanding if there were not one neither of them nor of us left alive yet would not the whole Church of England flee to Lovaine Tertullian saith Nonne Laici sacerdotes sumus Scriptum est regnum quoque sâ—cerdotes Deo patri suo nos fecit differentiam inter ordinem plebem constituit ecclesiae authoritas honos per ordinis concessum sanctificatus a Deo Vbi ecclesiastici ordinis non est concessus offert tingit sacerdos qui est ibi solus Sed ubi tres sunt Ecclesia est licet Laici But if you take the word Church for a Ministeriall or Organized Church we oppose your Position with these following Arguments 1. That which we have already proved sc That a Bishop and a Presbyter are all one in Scripture acceptation will necessarily inferre that the being of a Ministeriall or Organized Church doth not depend on the continuance or restauration of Bishops taking them for such as are superiour to Presbyters either in regard of Order or Jurisdiction For though these be never restored yet Presbyters being continued that yet are Bishops in Scripture sense the Organized and Ministeriall Church of Christ is fufficiently secured against the danger of perishing 2. But by the Tenent you here hold forth you do very uncharitably unchurch the best reformed Churches throughout the World The Protestant Churches of France Scotland the Low countries and Geneva must all be pâ—t out of the number of free Organized and Ministeriall Churches and their Ministers must because they admit not the Bishops that you are for be accounted no lawfull Ministers Yea you here againe very undutifully unchurch your Mother the Church of England if she restore not Episcopacy and herein gratifie the Papists no little that vilifie her and other reformed Churches as no true Churches and â—ry out against their Ministers as no lawfull Ministers But blessed be God both the Church of England and other reformed Churches and their Ministers have had and still have better Advocates and more dutifull Sonnes then you herein approve your selves to be to plead their Cause 3. By this Tenent also it will follow That all the Ordinances that are dispensed in these Churches are null and void Their Baptisme is no Baptisme The Sacrament of the Lords Supper Administred amongst them is no Sacrament and the like must be said of all the Ordinances that are dispensed in our Church by such as were not ordained by Bishops and so it makes them as to outward Church-Priviledges no better then meer Heathens and hereupon it ministers occasion of endless Doubts and Scruples unto the Members of those Churches of questioning the validity of their Baptisme and whether they ought not to be rebaptized which doubts also by your Tenent are occasioned also to all those among your selves that were baptized by such Ministers as were not Ordained by Bishops Thus you see how you lay the Foundation of Anabaptisme which yet you would seem to be zealous Opposers of 4. Add hereunto that hence it will unavoidably follow That you must not hold any Communion with these Churches nor such Congregations in the Church of England where these Ordinances are dispensed by such as were not Ordained by Bishops their Ministers according to your Doctrine being not lawfull Ministers and for the Ordinance dispensed by them null and void And here is a Rent indeed a rent in the highest to use your owne expressions from which our old Episcopall Divines that were sound Protestants would never have excused you no nor Doctor Vsher with whom in some things you profess to close For however he is represented by Doctor Bernard to have held that a Bishop had Superiority in degree above a Presbyter by Apostolicall Institution and had expressed himselfe sharply enough in his Letter to Doctor Bernard Touching the Ordination made by such Presbyters as had severed themselves from Bishops yet a little after speaking of the Churches of the Low-Countries * he sayth For the testifying his Communion with these Churches which he professeth to love and honour as true Members of the Church Universall he should with like affection receive the blessed Sacrament at the hands of the Dutch Ministers if he were in Holland as he should at the hands of the French Ministers if he were in Charenton By which you may perceive however he held those Churches
Martyr might be willing to fight with the Papists with those weapons they so oâ—ten call for Antiquity Vniversality Vnity but where did he ever refuse the Scriptures as the sole judge and determiner of controversies and the onely rule for interpretation of the Scriptures as you do Besides it is to be observed that it was matters of Doctrine that he and other Protestant writers did offer to defend against the Papists from the testimony of Fathers and Councils not matters touching Church Government and discipline which began sooner to be corrupted the mystery of iniquity working even in the Apostles dayes and the godly Fathers in the Primitive times sundry of them laying a foundation though unwillingly for Antichrists getting up into his seat when the Doctrine was kept pure and inviolable in respect whereof it is that Calvin whom you cite when he acknowledgeth that the first four generall Councils did contain nothing but the pure and native interpretation of the Scriptures doth expresly limit his words and saith quantum attinet ad fâ—dei dogmata so forre as concerns the doctrines of faith and as we have noted before in our Answer to your second Paper where also we have shewed you how those words of his are to be understood when he saith nullum esse nec melius nec certius remedium quam si verorum Episcoporum Synodus conveniat ubi controversum dogma excutiatur If there be a disputation or difference touching any Doctrine there is no better nor more certain remedâ— then if a Synod of true Bishops do convene where the controveâ—tâ—d Doâ—â—riae may be discussed but he concludes hoc autem perpetuum esse nego ut vera certa sit Scripturae interpretatio quae Concilii suffragiis fuerit recepta i. e. but this I deny to be perpetuall that that is a true and certain interpretation of Scripture which hath been received by the suffrages or determination of a Council And therefore you wrong Calvin and Mr. Philpot and the best and ablest of our Protestant Divines when you say they willingly submit to a judge and rule besides the Scriptures however they refuse noâ— to try the Doctrines of the adversaries by that which they themselves sc the Papists cannot except against it being their own rule they propound to be tried by sc the exposition of the Fathers and Councils and whose interpretation is not by them acknowledged to be that publike interpretation in opposition to the private wherein they professed to rest any farther then it appeareth to be the true sense of the Scripture or holy Ghost the only publike interâ—reter But it is you and not they that are so willing to submit to a judge and rule besides the Scriptures sc the primitive Churches practice and universall and unauimous consent of Fathers and generall Councils and to this rule you bring the Church Government to be tried thereby because your plea from Scripture for that kind of Episcopacy which you so earnestly contend for is but weak and the most you have to say for it is from Fathers and Councils and practice of the Church since the Canon of the Scripture hath been perfected although we must tell you that that Episcopacy which the Fathers you would be tried by speak of was nothing like that Episcopal Government of later times Neither will upon this score as you say our Presbytery be quite out of doors or be found to be wholly destitute of Examples and practice of the Church and testimonies of the Fathers neither can you prove that therein the whole stream runs so for Episcopacy that there is not the least rivulet for any others and as you from the late King affirm by which we are now brought unto what we put you upon in the first place to prove sc what that Church Government is which is so consonant to the will God and universall practice of primitive Churches 4. And therefore having fully discussed whatever you have urged against the Scriptures being the rule to judge by in this controversie we shall now not refuse to try what strength there is in what you alleadge for to prove what was the universal and constant practice of Primitive Churches in this matter But 1. We must remove that aspersion that you cast upon us when you say that we being sensible that the whole streame of the examples and practice of the Church and testimonies of the Fathers runs for Episcopacy have not way to evade this rule but unâ liturâ to blot out all records and monuments of Antiquity for the space of three hundred yeares after Christ as imperfâ—ct But the words that we used in our answer to your first Paper will speak for us which we shall here therefore recite because you do not Having put you to prove what that Church Government is which is so consonant to the will of God and universal practice of Primitive Churches we thus declared our selves For our parts we said we think it will be very hard for you or any others to demonstrate out of any records of antiquity what was the universal practice of Primitive Churches for the whole space of the first three hundred yeares after Christ or the greatest part thereof excepting so much as is left upon record in the Scriptures of the new Testament the monuments of Antiquity that concerne these times for the greatest part of them being both imperfect and far from shewing us what was the universal practice of the Church then though the practices of some Churches may be mentioned and likewise very questionable At least it will not be easie to assure us that some of those that go under the names of the most approved Authors of those times are neither spurious nor corrupted From the words of our answer thus recited it is manifest we did not unâ liturâ blot out all records and monuments of Antiquity for the space of three hundred yeares after Christ we only said they were imperfect and said it would be hard for you or any others to demonstrate out of any records of Antiquity what was the universal practice of Primitive Churches for the whole space of the first three hundred yeares after Christ or the greatest part thereof And is not this manifest to him that is conversant in Ecclesiastical story Doth not Baronius himself despair of making up any perfect story of a good part of this time next unto the Apostles dayes And if it had been easie for you to have demonstrated what was the universal practice of the Church for the whole or greatest part of this time why did you not begin your demonstration hereof sooner then from the Council of Nice Again we said that it would not be easie for to assure us that some of the works that go under the names of the most approved Authors of those times are neither spurious nor corrupted but we did not as you charge uâ— brand the most approved Authors of those times as spurious and corrupted The workes that
appoints fofeitures in case of prophanation of the Lords day by Carriers c. that travel on the Lords day or by Butchers that sell or kill victuass on that day By all which you may plainly see if you will not shut your eyes that it is not against Law that a man may come to be punished twice for one offence Nay what hath been heretofore more ordinary then the High-Commissioners imprisoning fining and excommunicating for one and the same offence But yet you will have the latter Acts and Ordinances against drunkenness swearing prophanation of the Sabbath c. enjoyning punishment by the Civil Magistrate onely though they do not speak one word that tends to the repealing of the Ordinance for Church Government to have utterly taken off all power of Excommunication But this we must not so easily grant and yet we shall not be unready as there may be occasion to complain to the civil Magistrate of any lawless persons that are justly censurable with the censure of Excommunication the conjunction of the Civil and Ecclesiasticall Sword being sharper and longer then either of them alone The Gentlemens Paper Sect. VIII And you further proceed to make answer to our severall ensuing Quaeries but how fully and satisfactorily all may judge that have perused what hath formerly been said touching the civil sanction of your Government Our first Quaerie is Why Government in singulari Your answer is Because it is the onely Government that is established in this Church by Civill Authority This Answer hath been confuted before we shall say no more here to that But we are unsatisfied what you mean by this Church whether you mean this Church at Manehester where your Classis is or you mean the Church of England If you mean this Church of Manchester of your association it is establisht not so much by Ordinance of Lords and Commons in Parliament as by later Acts grauting the free exercise of Religion in Doctrine and Worship to all Churches and Congregations in their own way to all and all alike but such as are particularly cautioned against And so you in your Presbytery in your Church at Manchester are protected because you have possessed your selves of that Church But then others in other Churches and Congregations to wit Prestwich Burie Middleton and the like may say of their way of worship it is the onely Government which is establisht in this Church But if your meaning be of the Church of England and so we conceive by the subsequent words viz. That there is no other Government but yours owned as the Church Government throughout the whole Nation You are certainly mistaken and dare not maintain it that his Highness or his Council owns Presbytery and none but that Government But leaving the Civill Sanction you come to the divine right of Presbytery and prove it to be the onely Government in singulari because it is that onely Government which Christ hath prescribed in his word and what Christ hath thus prescribed must needs be de jure one and the same in every Church And Calvins judgement you say in this particular is so manifest by his works to the whole world that it needs no proof We have told you before of the form and order of Church Government appointed by the Council of Nice by Patriarch Arch-Bishop Bishop c. How this Government which we suppose you will not say is Presbyterian is in Calvins judgement not differing from that which Christ hath prescribed in his word And in his first Section of this Chapter he tells us of Bishops not one word of Elders chosen out of the people who should rule in the Church but Bishops that did all viz. make and publish Canons a note certainly of rule and jurisdiction in the Church in which saith he they so ordered all things after the rule of Gods word that a man may see they had in a manner nothing differing from the word of God And this form of Government did represent a certain Image of divine Institution Can Calvin say more for your Presbytery nay can he say so much then how manifest is his judgement for the jus divinum of your Presbytery that it is that Government in particular which Christ hath prescribed in his word Thus have we taken off your Calvin and Beza as above your modern Doctors for Fathers you have none and now you descend to the Assembly of Divines The jus divinum by London Ministers the provincial Synod at London Rutherford Gyllaspie to prove your divine right of Presbytery modern Authors of yesterday with whom you paint your Margent in abundance and may serve your turn amongst the ignorant and vulgar sort who measure all by tale and not by weight when others that know what and who many of them are will conclude you draw very near the dregs As for such as are lawless persons and who those be whether drunkards swearers unclean persons prophaners of the Sabbath such as will not subject themselves to the present Government c. all together or a part conjunctim seu divisim whether you will they are onely punishable by the Civil Magistrate you cannot exclude them the Church by any of your censures as we have said before The Animadversions of the Class upon it 1. WE did indeed proceed to make answer to your several Queries and desire the Reader to peruse the Queries you propounded to us in your first Paper and the answer we gave unto them and then to judge how satisfactorily we did it after he had fully weighed our answer and what you have said to take off the establishing of our Government by the civil Sanction But whereas your first Query was why Government in singulari and our answer given thereunto was because it is the only Government that is established in this Church by civil Authority you say this answer hath been confuted before but how strongly we shall leave it to the Reader for to judge But it seems this answer hath raised another scruple in your mindes for you are unsatisfied what we mean by this Church although in our answer we had sufficiently explained it it being that Church wherein the Prelatical Government formerly had been set up and wherein that being put down the Presbyterian was set up in its stead as the only Government that was owned as the Church Government for the whole Nation as we had told you and which words did sufficiently declare that by this Church we meant the Church of England This you confess is that which you conceive to be our meaning yet you quarrell at the word that so upon supposal that the Church of Manchester of our Association and where our Classis meets might thereby be understood you might take the liberty to tell us that our Church Government is not so much established by the Ordinance of the Lords and Commons in Parliament as by later Acts granting as you say the free exercise of Religion in doctrine and worship to
every Marsyas with an old Pipe of Minerva's dares contend with Apollo that men of low and cheap abilities are too loud and too hard for men of the choicest and best design certainly Inertia pro sapientia erit He 's the best Orator that dwels in silence and he 's the wisest man that keeps the privacy and recluseness of his own ville Hannibal once told Scipio that it had been better both for Rome and Carthage if both of them had been contented within their own bounds and possibly it had been more honourable both for our Brethren of the Presbytery and our selves had we made our lists more private and plaid our prizes only behind the Curtains for so we had confined and determined our ignorance to our own sphere and our defects had been visible to no eyes but our own But as Antalcidas objected to Agesilaus The Spartans have made the Thebanes fight whether they would or no the exasperations and bitterness of our Brethren have lent cowards courage and provoked us to combate whether we would or no. Miserum est pati nec licere queri 'T is a hard case to be hurt and to have our mouths stopt to suffer and to be obleiged not to complain Qui unam patitur injuriam invitat aliam 'T is a certaine rule with the men of this perswasion if you take a blow from them on one cheek you cannot be Christians in their Calender unless you turn the other also We had well hoped that what Tully notes to be the eloquence of Atticus Respondere sciat me sibi dum taceo our silence and our patience might have been good Orators for us to have Answered the pretensions of their power the disguises of their popular discourses and their harsh proceedings towards us but the more we suffered they triumphed the more and because it was our judgement and choice to dwell in silence they thought we either could not or durst not speak But nemo nobis amicis uti potest Adulatoribus They shall find we are their Friends but not their Parafites we will speak that truth which we understand beseech the good spirit to lead them and us into all truth and in this mean and inconsiderable service we appeal to the 1000 witnesses within us that we speak nothing out of pride or envy or with unchristian reflections upon our sufferings but with a hearty desire of peace that they or we may be convinc'd and at last meet by a unity of the spirit in the bond of peace We shall not present the Rooms and modell of the whole house in the Porch yet we shall preface a recitall of those grievances which made us open our mouths in this discourse Ne extorqueretur nobis causa Lucii Cottae patrocinio lest we might seem to fear the Giant of Presbytery and to thinke it were only that Palladium that would preserve the City of God About seavenmonths since the Classis of Manchester publisht their Breviats or censures against all that came not in to them for triall and examination wherein they go to the high waies and compell all to come in and give submission to their Government by subjecting themselves to examination by the Ministers and Elders not only such as may be suspected to be ignorant or scandalous but all of all elevations of all judgments must come under the Inquisition not so much we fear to fit them for the Sacrament as to teach them obedience that they may know themselves as Tiberius said of the Senate that they are homines ad servitutem nati to owe an obedience to their new Masters which they must pay under the grand penalties of suspension and excommunication In answer to these Bruta fulmina we with all meeknesse and humility sent them one single sheet of Paper desiring satisfaction in some things wherein our reason and Religion obliged us to be of a different judgment from them This one sheet they return'd in seven an answer long enough if it be sound enough To satisfie us in our scruples and in their proceedings they pretend for what they do both an Ecclesiasticall and civill sanction a Commission from Christ and the State also But that maxime of the ancient will here be found true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Our own Laws built upon passion and interest are commonly lawless It is apparent to us that their new Lights have no light from Antiquity or Primitive forms that their new Rules have no establishment either by the Laws of the Christian Church or the Laws of this Land St. Jerome said of Origen That ingenii sui acumina putat ecclesiae esse Sacramenta an imagination sure of our Presbyters that the placita of their own wils must pass for civill and divine constitutions We wonder that men pretending to Learning and Religion should not only call in the Lord of truth to abett the the phansies of men but should also pretend to encouragement and Commissions from the State to second their prevarications It hath pleased his Highness in his wisdome and clemency to secure all godly and peaceable men professing Jesus Christ from those Ordinances which the rigour of Presbytery had mounted against them but where he gives the least incouragement for this power usurped by them we find not and therefore we thinke 't is friendly advice that they take heed least their unguided zeal or interest precipitate them into a Premunire since under colour of authority they have made Laws and Canons and published them openly in the Church for all to obey upon pain of excommunication not only against all the ancient known Laws of elder date but also contrary to the present establishment and the Magistracy under which we now live 'T is a trouble to us to hear them cry out against Prelacy and Episcopacy as only an artificiall and politicall device to Lord it over Gods inheritance whereas indeed their little fingers are heavier then the Prelates loines though they tell us their way is friendly meek and a sociall way we find it not they make us only as Publicans and Heathens it should seem that all that they intended in the change of Church Government was only to slice the Diocesan into Parochiall Bishops and with him in Lucian To cut out the old useless Moons into fine new Stars every one of which claime the same influence and dominion over the people which the Prelates did 'T is a trouble to us to hear them inveigh against Hereticks and Schismaticks against the Novatian and Donatists of old when they walk in their steps maintain their principles and espouse their quarrels We are told by the Church Historians That the Doctrine against mixt-communion was a Brat gotten by Novatus nurst up by Lucifer and Audius but it grew not till Donatus became its foster Father then indeed it flourisht and spread amain till St. Austin by his judicious and clear opposition did banish it that and the subfequent ages the Anabaptists
said that Popery gets more advantage from the want of Government in the Church then from the Presbyterian Government which was never so effectually setled we leave all unprejudiced persons to judg and if eventuall causes be talkt of whether severall of the Episcopall men that bend their strength so against Presbytery and whilst they contend for a Government excepted against thereby endeavouring anarchy in the Church do not herein gratifie the Papists time will shew We might further say that in these parts we have had none that we know of revolted to Popery since Presbytery was setled And for some we know very eminent that turned Papists in the height of Prelacy and upon some offences and sad accidents that befell some in the Clergy then which we forbeare particularly to instance and they do but continue under us as they were before so that Episcopacy sure was the eventuall cause of their apostacy by the Argument of this observation of the Doctors May we add an observation of a worthy Divine which we have heard from him and let it stand by this of the Doctors and for the truth of it abide the test and strictest examination and it may be still in pursuance of this vindication of our Government It was this that of the three formes in Church Government that are spoken of amongst us viz. Presbytery Episcopacy and Independency of all three the first where it hath prevailed hath been followed with least errors in Doctrine For Episcopacy it is well known how many of the Divines under that Government were infected with Arminianism Socinianism and Popery it self * some chief Ceremoniall men turning Papists which the Doctor cannot observe of any Presbyterians For the Independants how many of their way turn into Antinomians Anabaptists Seekers Familists Quakers Ranters c. And for Presbytery it hath not yet been observed to have bred any such noysome Weeds where it hath been established And how far it is eventually the nourisher of Popery as far as concernes this instance in our County we leave the Reader to judg Distance of place in regard of the Author hath hindred so strict a revisall of the Sheets in Printing as was needfull these faults since Collected by him besides divers literall ones not so materiall thou art desired thus to mend ERRATA IN Epist to the Reader page 3. l. 29. for this read his In their Preface p. 5. l. 26. for Donasticks r. Donatists In the Narrative p. 1. l 27. for with r. which p 9. l. 4. for to them r. to their p. 13. l. 9. these words are to be read as in a Parenthesis the next Class Mr Heyrick not being returned l. 24. after Printing these words are left out of the Papers with the Preface from p. 17. to the end instead of Narrative the Title should have been The Animadversions upon their Preface Classicall Records 1. Col. l. 32. for Edw. Gee r. Edw. Lee 8. Col. l. 5. for contained r. continued l. 7. for would r. could In the Answer to the Preface p. 1. l. 15. note 1. for our poor Text r. one poor Text. p. 9. l. 3. note 5. for freely making r. freely make l. 16. note 6. dele to r. return the Laconick p. 11. l. 23. note 13. r. tax as Donatism l. â—lt r. they jeer us p. 12. l. 15 r. when he is fallen l. 34. r. omission In the Gentlemens first Paper p. 11 12. the Names from Isa Allen to Nie. Mosely are transposed and should have been in the front of all the Names In the Book p. 89. l. 9. for unconformists r. nonconformists l 22. for not more r. no more p. 95. l. 36. protest against him r. against it p. 99. l. 28. for sober ground r. other ground p. 100. l. 7. for seasonable r. seaseable l. 18. for offored r. affoarded p. 106. l. 30. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 139. l. 22. for civill sunction r. civill sanction p. 179. l. 1. dele the Interrogation after what p. 224 l. 12. for concluding r. excluding p. 247. l. 28. the word assure is left out read it thus yâ—t that could not be a rule to assure us p. 291. l. 30. r. is not against the Rules p. 301. l. 36. r. normam p. 322. l. 32. dele the r. not to the last p. 324. l. 23. for dissavoured r. dissavowed p. 338. l. 17. for admit r. omit it l. 33. for presumptuously used r. promiscuously used p. 339. l. 6. dele not l. 27. for giving r. give your censure p. 340. l. 2. dele it p. 341. l. 7 and 22. r. Magistraliter l. 8. for ours fit r. was fit l. 15. for nearest Antecedent p. 342. the sentence in the Margin should be inserted into the matter at the letter a. without which the sense is incompleat l. 5. for and us that r. and is that p. 344. l. 16. r. competent knowledg l. 36. r. tell us p. 345. l. 8. dele to p. 352. l. 26. r. Apage Sect. 11. The paper that was published by the first Classis within the Province of Lancaster in the severall Congregations belonging to their association Novemb 22. 1657. At the first Classe at Manchester Septem 8th 1657. IN pursuance of an Order of the last Provincial the first Classe doth humbly represent to this Assembly their apprehensions in the case to them propounded in a draught prepared for the several Congregations belonging to their own Association if it shall be approved of by this Assembly and which they do wholely submit to their Judgements It being represented to this Classe and much complained of and offence being taken That in the several Congregations if not in all belonging to this Association there are many persons of all sorts that are members of Congregations and publickly enjoy severall priviledges as hearing of the Word prayers of the Church and baptizing of their children and satisfaction for injuries done unto them That yet live in a total and sinfull neglect of the Lords Supper that are scandalous and offensive in their lives drunkards unclean persons swearers Sabbath breakers neglecters of Family-duties that will not subject themselves to the present government of the Church but live as lawless persons out of their rank and order that there are sundry that are grosly ignorant in the main points of Christian Religion These are to give notice that this Classe laying these things to heart and much grieved for them do publish and make known 1. That every Minister belonging to this Association shall set apaâ—t one or two or more of the weeke dayes in every month for the catechizing of the several familyes belonging to their respective Congregations and for the information of the ignorant in those families and that the families to be catechized on each of such dayes set apart for that purpose have notice the Lords day before to meet the Minister either at the Church or Chappel or the Ministers house or some other house within the
every lawful Minister to whom the Key of Doctrine is committed by himself singly or else it is Juridical and this belongs to Synods and Councils who having the Key of Discipline are invested with authority to inquire into try examine censure and judge of matters of Doctrine and Discipline authoritatively although they be tyed to the rule of Gods Word in such proceedings as Judges to the Law and likewise to censure offenders according to their merit when such cases are regularly and orderly brought before them And in this sense it was that we submitted our apprehensions in the Paper published to the Judgement of the Provincial Assembly And we believe when the Apostle tels us 1 Cor. 14. 32. That the spirits os the Prophets are subject to the Prophets And our Saviour Christ-saith Mat. 18. â—ell the Church And when we consider what was practised by Paul and Barnabas and certain others who upon occasion of a contest that arose in the Church at Antioch about a matter of Doctrine were sent up from that Church to Jerusalem to the Apostles and Elders about that question from these and other Scriptural grounds we had sufficient ground for so doing We are sure also That Whitaker de Conciliis quaestione quinta and Chamierus in his Panstratia de oecumenico Pontifice ubi de Authoritate Papae in Ecclesia cap. 13. cap. 14. And generally all our Protestant Divines against the Papists alledging the Texts above-mentioned and others do prove abundantly that in the sense declared the Pope is to be subject to a general Council wherein also sundry Papists do concur with them And questionless if in the time of Augustine who was no contemner of Synods and Councils any in this sense had declared that they would not have submitted their apprehensions to their judgement he would have cried out against them as well as against the Donatists O impudentem vocem And we hope when you have weighed the matter better you will not in this sense see any reason to refuse to submit either your sense and apprehensions of our Paper or what you may publish as your own private Judgements in other matters about Religion to the Judgement of a general Council supposing it might be had SECT III. WE have now done with your Preface and come to the matter it self wherein you professe 1. To joyn with us in a deep sense of the several grosse sins and errors of the times desiring earnestly to mourn first for your own sins next for the sixs of others c. And here we do heartily pray that neither we nor you may any of us condemn our selves either by professing our sorrow for what sins we may practise or by refusing to help forward the good that we professe to allow of but may testifie the truth of our sorrow for our own and other mens sins by suitable indeavors to reform what is amisse in our selves and helping forward every one in his place the reformation of others 2 In the next place you say You are also sensible with us that there are sundry persons grosly ignorant in the mainpoints of Christian Religion And if so we hope you will acknowledge that where after the injoying of plenty of Preaching and the publick Catechizing that hath been used for many years together and much more where there hath been lesse of this meanes many continue grosly ignorant in the main points of Religion it is at least not to be condemned in such Ministers as shall be willing to take the paines by private Catechizing to instruct such persons This course being to the Ministers a matter of paines onely and that hereupon where the publick Catechizing attaines not its desired end the private may be good and useful that so poor souls perish not for lack of knowledge 3. Lastly You hope That we with you are sensible and greived though you say we do not mention them for the grosse errors in judgement and damnable Doctrines of many who have rent themselves into as many several Heresies as they have into Sects and Schisms You may perceive by the title of our Paper that it was a representation of our apprehensions to the Provincial Assembly in the Case to us propounded by the said Provincial and what that was we shall particularly declare anon although by what we say had been complained of and represented unto us it might be gathered and therefore we were chiefly to apply our selves to that which was therein our main work and businesse That the grosse and damnable errors that the loosness of these times have brought forth are to be bewailed if it were possible with tears of bloud is most freely to be confessed And whether we lay them not to heart in some poor measure God the searcher of all hearts he knows as what complaints have been made of these by the members of this Classis both in their prayers and preaching men can witnesse and likewise what testimonies have been given to the truth of Jesus Christ and against the errors of the times subscribed with their hands and published to the world though therein but concurring with the rest of their Reverend Brethren in this Province in the Province of London and other Counties of the Land posterity may read when we are in our graves But as to the most of the Congregations belonging to this Classis the great business to be looked after was the use of our best indeavors for the informing of the ignorant and the reforming of the scandalous the numbers of these being great and of those that are so grosly erroneous as to maintain damnable doctrines and whereof you professe your selves to be so sensible very inconsiderable in comparison of the former and in sundry of our Congregations if not in most blessed be God for it not any at all that we know of And therefore there was not that reason to make any such expresse mention of these as of the former although in our Paper we were not herein neither altogether silent as will after appear Having professed your agreement with us thus farre you go on to declare your selves That touching the way of informing the ignorant and reforming the wicked and erroneous you shall not much dissent And 1. You say For the Information and instruction of the ignorant by way of Catechizing before they be admitted to the Sacrament the course by us published provided you say it be in publick little differeth from the Order prescribed by the Church of England and other Reformed Churches abroad before any be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Sapper That all Children and others so many as it is fit to instruct after that manner be publickly catechized is that which we heartily wish had been and were more generally practised in our own Church at home as it is practised by the Reformed Churches abroad And certainly had the publick catechizing of Children and others been more generally and constantly practised there had not been that cause
to complain of the grosse ignorance of sundry persons of ripe years and some of them Governours of Families as now there is We do also understand you by what you do here expresse that you judge it not meet that the grosly ignorant should be admitted to the Lords Supper in that you seem to approve of the practice of the Reformed Churches abroad as of our own at home in taking course to inform the ignorant before they admit them to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper And therefore we see not how you can in reason deny but there ought to be an examination and trial of all persons before they be admitted to the Lords Supper that so the grosly ignorant may not be admitted as they might be if all promiscuously were admitted without any tryal at all But whereas in this concession about catechizing you have a Proviso that it be in publick we doe not see why you should so limit it if it be confessed that it is necessary that the ignorant should be informed and that catechizing is an useful means to attain that end You know how it would dash sundry knowing persons to be catechized publickly in the Congregation But as for those that are conscious to themselves that they are very ignorant if these should be called forth to publique Catechizing it were more likely to drive them from the publique Assembly and so from the use of all means for their information then beavailable to this end As touching what was propounded by us in our paper as the way for their information though it was not intended for any such a purpose as to exclude publique Catechizing it was done in way of condescension to the weakest and to shew our willingness to apply our selves to any course so we might be instrumental to bring poor dark and blinde Souls to the knowledge of Christ and which in our Judgement is more likely to be attained in many as the case stands with them in a more private way of Catechizing in any of the wayes propounded by us then if we should Catechize all the several Families publiquely before the whole Congregation 2. Touching those that erre so grosly whether in Doctrinals or points of discipline thereby renting from a true constituted Church you say we speak nothing either of their sin or punishment yet you hope we with you do hold that the Churches lawful Pastors have the power of the keyes committed to them to excommunicate such offenders We have given you the reason already why we made not such express mention of these offenders as of the former although as you will hereafter perceive we are not wholly silent touching either the sin or punishment of these Onely at present because you professe to allow of that previous course of admonition prescribed by Christ in reference to the scandalous Mat. 18. before they be excommunicated but here say nothing of any such course to be taken with the heretical or schismatical though we hope also of you that you disallow it not we shall briefly declare what course is to be held by the rules of the Presbyterian Government before the sentence of excommunication passe against these offenders and whereof our paper was not silent This Government however it gives no toleration to any such errors as subvert the faith or any other errours which overthrow the power of godlinesse if the party who holds them spreads them seeking to draw others after him or to any such practises as in their own nature manifestly subvert that order Vnity and Peace which Christ hath established in his Church These being offences censured by this Government and of which further afterward yet this Government prescribes the exercise of patience and long-suffering even toward those that do grosly erre in Doctrine as well as toward those that are scandalous in life in the use of all means for the convincing them of their errours by reasoning with them out of the Scriptures as we see was practised in the Synod that was held at Jerusalem and as we see the Fathers of the Nicene Council did not disdain to reason and dispute with Arrius though he denyed the Deity of Christ before they condemned him And as also other Fathers did with other Hereticks in the Synods although oftentimes in vain That so none might have any just cause to complain that they were condemned before they fully heard And as touching such as run into such practises as in their own nature tend manifestly to the subverting of that order and unity which Christ hath established in the Church it labours with these also in the use of all gentle means to reclaim them and bring them back again to the Church they have rent themselves from before it proceed to censure As it doth also put a difference between the seducers and ring-leaders of a Sect and those that are misled having respect not only to the nature of the offence but also to the quality of the offender and exerciseth patience and forbearance towards all so long as there is any hope of reducing them by milder correction Being ever more desirous to heal then cut off any member And thus having declared our selves in this we goe on with you 3. For you say For such as are scandalous and wicked in their lives admonition private and publique is to be observed according to Christs rule Mat. 18. But if they still continue and will not reform the Churches lawful Pastors have power to excommunicate such In this you fully come up to what we hold as to the meanes that is to be used for the reformation of these and we are glad there is an agreement in judgement betwixt you and us thus far Neither can we see how upon this concession you can in reason finde fault with our proceedings if there should be occasion for our censuring any such persons as for their notorious offences and their obstinacy therein might justly merit the highest censure For however perhaps you may say you stumble chiefly at this that our ruling Elders that in your judgement may be but meer Lay-men do joyn in the Gouernment with us yet we see not how this can be any just ground of scruple to any of you who if we mistake not were all of you satisfied in your consciences touching the lawfulness of the late Government of Episcopacy as it was then exercised at least as to submission to it and wherein High-Commissioners Chancelors and Commissaries that were as much Lay-men then as ruling Elders can be in your judgement now had so great a share as to suspend Ministers from the exercise of their Ministry upon such complaints as according to the orders that were appointed in those dayes they might take cognizance of and so far as to decree the sentence of excommunication against them and others as there was occasion for it But here we must yet further profess we do not know whom you mean by lawful Pastors to whom you here grant the
to exercise the power that Christ hath committed to us for edification and not for destruction that these are but so many waste Papers wherein Presbytery is wrapped up to make it look more handsomely and passe more currantly We do earnestly desire That in the examination of your consciences you would seriously consider whether you have not both transgressed the rules of Charity in passing such hard censures upon us and also usurped that which belongs not to you in making your selves judges of what fals not under your cognizance The things you mention belonging only to be tried by your and our Master to whom we must all stand or fall But we are heartily sorry that Presbytery which stands in no need of any painting or cover to make it look more handsomely and passe more currantly should be accounted by you the anguis in herba whereof you had need to beware it having never given that offence to any as to merit such language SECT VI. BUt now you frame an objection out of our Paper and return your Answer professing That you pray for the establishment of such Church Government throughout his Highnesse Dominions as is consonant to the will of God and universal practice of primitive Churches c. In that you do here joyn the will of God and the universal practice of primitive Churches together as you joyned the Word of God and the constant practise of the Catholique Church before you seem to us to make up the rule whereby we must judge what Government it is that you pray might be established of these two viz. the will of God and the universal practise of primitive Churches Or that it is the universal practise of primitive Churches that must be our sure guide and comment upon the Word of God to tell us what is his will revealed there touching Church Government and discipline If this be your sense as we apprehend it is we must needs professe that herein we greatly differ from you as not conceiving it to be sound and orthodox It being the Word of God alone and the approved practise of the Church recorded there whether it was the universal and constant practise of the Church or no that is to be the onely rule to judge by in this or any other controversies in matters of Religion But yet admitting for the present the rule you seem to make we should desire to know from you what that Church Government is which is so consonant to the will of God and universal practise of primitive Churches For our own parts we think it will be very hard for you or any others to demonstrate out of any Records of Antiquity what was the universal practise of primitive Churches for the whole space of the first 300. yeares after Christ or the greatest part thereof excepting so much as is left upon record in the Scriptures of the new Testament the Monuments of Antiquity that concern those times for the greatest part of them being both imperfect and far from shewing us what was the universal practise of the Church then though the practises of some Churches may be mentioned and likewise very questionable At least it will not be easie to assure us that some of those that goe under the names of the most approved Authors of those times are neither spurious nor corrupted And hereupon it will unavoidably follow that we shall be left very doubtful what Government it is that is most consonant to the universal and constant practise of primitive Churches for that time But as touching the rule it self which you seem here to lay down we cannot close with it We do much honour and reverence the Primitive Churches But yet we believe we owe more reverence to the Scriptures then to judge them either imperfect or not to have light enough in themselves for the resolving all doubts touching matters of faith or practise except it be first resolved what was either the concurrent interpretation of the Fathers or the universal and constant practise of the Churches of those times Besides that admitting this for a rule that the universal and constant practise of the primitive Churches must be that which must assure us what is the will of God revealed in Scripture concerning the Government which he hath appointed in the Church our faith is hereupon resolved into a most uncertain ground and so made fallible and turned into opinion For what monuments of Antiquity besides the Scriptures can assure us touching the matters of fact therein contained that they were such indeed as they are there reported to be the Authors of them themselves being men that were not infallibly guided by the Spirit But yet supposing we could be infallibly assured which yet never can be what was the universal and constant practise of the primitive Churches how shall that be a rule to assure us what is most consonant to the will of God When as we see not especially in such matters as are not absolutely necessary to salvation but that the universal practise of the Churches might in some things be dissonant to the will of God revealed in Scriptures And so the universal practise of primitive Churches can be no certain rule to judge by what Church Government is most consonant to the will of God revealed in his Word We know there are corruptions in the best of men There was such hot contention betwixt Paul and Barnabas as caused them to part asunder Peter so failed in his practise as that though before some came from James he did eat with the Gentiles yet when they were come he withdrew himself fearing them of the Circumcision And hereupon not only other Jews likewise dissembled with him but Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation Whence it 's clear that the examples of the best men even in those things wherein they went contrary to the rule of Gods Word are of a spreading nature and the better the Persons that give the bad examples are the greater the danger of the more universal leavening Nay we finde that not onely some few Apostolical men had their failings but even Apostolical primitive Churches did in the very face of the Apostles they being yet alive make great defection both in regard of opinions and practises As from the examples of the Churches of Corinth Galatia and the Churches of Asia is manifest The Apostle also tels us that even in his time the mystery of iniquity began to work And in after times we know how the Doctrine was corrupted what grosse superstition crept into the Church what domination was striven for amongst the Pastors and Bishops of the Churches till at length Antichrist was got up into his seat unto which height yet he came not all at once but by steps and degrees Besides it is of fresh remembrance that notwithstanding the reformation happily brought about in our own Church in regard of Doctrine and worship after those dismal Marian times yet the corruption in regard of
and the reformed Churches abroad that we know not what can be added more And yet we do not say That there is no present Government in any Church or Assembly of Saints but where our Discipline and Government is erected intirely in all the parts of it no more then we should deny him to be a man in whom there were a defect of some integral parts or in whom there were some superfluous members But as when Antichristianisme so overspead the face of the Church in those dark times before the Reformation God preserved a Church Ministery and Ordinances though not without the mixture of many corruptions in doctrine and worship even amongst the Papists themselves So there was some of Christs Government and Discipline in the worst times though not intirely nor without the mixture of much corruption in that Discipline and Government And yet if you consult Antiquity you will not finde that the Presbyterian Government hath lyen hid so long as that for the space of 1500 years it could never be found till this present You have heard what rule did anciently belong to Presbyters notwithstanding that through the corruptions that crept into the Church in after times the exercise of that power was long disused And the like may be said of Ruling Elders and as hath been shewed by others But it is what de jure ought to be and not what de facto is or hath been which is that which you and we are chiefly to attend and concerning which the Scripture must be the onely Judge as we have said before But you say now subjection to our present Government is required by us and then demand Whether all that observe not our rank and order and subject not themselves to our present Government must be taken for lawlesse persons for so say you doth this close connexion of ours seem to import viz Many who do not subject but live c. But here you do reason fallaciously a bene conjunctis ad male divisa For in our Paper we spake of such as did live in a sinful and total neglect of the Lords Supper That were scandalous and offensive in their lives drunkards unclean persons and that will noâ— subject themselves to the present Government but live as lawlesse persons And therefore the lawlesse persons we meant and as might plainly have been gathered from our words were such who as they subiected not themselves to the present Government of the Church so they were also scandalous and offensive in their lives we joyning these together whom you divide And whether such as will neither submit themselves to the Laws of God nor the Government that is settled in the Church by the Civil Power be not lawlesse persons we leave it to you to judge But yet we do here also minde you That however we do not judge all those to be lawlesse persons that do out of conscience not come up to the observation of all those Rules which are or shall be established by Authority for regulating the outward worship of God and Government of the Church being otherwise blamelesse yet both you and we may well remember that such as should have refused to have subjected themselves to the late Prelatical Government would have been accounted in those times to have been lawlesse persons SECT IX BUt you say When we make it an order that notice shall be taken of all persons that forsake the publik Assemblies of the Saints you would gladly know how farr we extend this Saintship this Church and Assembly of Saints To which we answer as farr as the Apostle did when writing to the Church of Corinth and the Churches of Galatia he calls them Saints and Churches notwithstanding there were some in those Churches that were leavened with unsound doctrine and grosly erroneous In Corinth some that denied the Resurrection made rents and schisms and sundry grosly scandalous In the Churches of Galatia such as mixed works with Faith in the point of Justification and of which the Apostle Paul would have those Churches to take notice even to the censuring of them they being spots to those Assemblies and however Saints by profession and in regard of outward calling being in Covenant with God and having been baptized yet answered not their profession by suitable conversation And therefore however there be sundry of the like stamp in our Assemblies we do not therefore unchurch them or make our Assemblies not the Assemblies of the Saints because of the corruption of such members And seeing our principles and practises are manifestly known to be utterly against the opinions and practises of the Donatists of old and those that have of late rent themselves from our Churches because of the scandalousnesse of the corrupt members that are found in them though the sin of these in our Churches is aggravated by giving that occasion you might well have spared your pains in transcribing out of Augustine what he justly said unto those schismaticks that he had to deal with Nay you might rather have gathered from our Paper That seeing we said that notice should be taken of all those that should forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints our purpose was to have censured such as the Donatists were That we purposed to observe and censure those that did maintain and hold up private meetings in opposition to the publick That cry down our Churches and publick Assemblies Ministery and Ordinances as you know several forts do and who as they hold sundry grosse errors that subvert the faith so in regard of those and other their practises that in their own nature doe manifestly subvert the order unity and peace that Christ hath established in his Church doe justly fall under Church censure according to the rules of our Government above mentioned And that therefore we were not altogether silent concerning either the sin or punishment of such as did erre grosly in doctrinals or in discipline so as to make such dangerous rents from the Church as the fore-named Sectaries do Contrary to what you say of us in your Paper And further by such as forsake the publick Assemblies of the Saints of whom we said notice should be taken you might have gathered our meaning was that such of which sort there are but too many amongst us who out of a principle of carelesness sloth worldliness or manifest prophaneness do on the Lords day either idle out the time or else are worse imployed when they should resort to the publick Assemblies and who as they are no friends to any private meetings for the good of their souls in the use of any private means of conference or prayer for that end So they doe also Atheistically turn their backs on all the publick Ordinances forsaking them and the Assemblies where these are dispensed should be taken notice of in order to censure if there was not reformation and to neither of which sort of persons any indulgence is granted by any Laws of the Land that we
in the form of Church Government and were for sustance the same with ours But here we understood him and so do still else he is at a further distance from us then we apprehended that he would have all the Incumbent Presbyters or Pastors of the severall Congregations meeting in the severall Chappels within the severall Parishes to have the liberty to be admitted to these Assemblies as Members of them and there to have decisive Votes This we gather from what he grants in his first Proposall Now these Assemblies thus Constituted we sayd are for substance that is in regard of the Essence of them the same with ours where â—all the Pastors of the Churches have liberty to be admitted into them those that are Unbenefic'd Ministers as well as others It 's true we cautioning against moderate Episcopacie could not but be understood that we judged Suffragans and Bishops mentioned in those Proposals as superfluous Additaments to those Assemblies and cautioning against the parting with the Ruling Elder were to be conceived that we judged him to have a right to Vote in those Assemblies as a Member or integrall part of them But yet as that man that hath some superfluous Member suppose a sixth Finger or wants an Hand or Leg or some other usefull and necessary or integrall part or member is for the substance or in regard of his essence the same man in kind with him in whom there is neither deficiency nor redundancy in regard of Members so it may be said concerning the Assemblies proposed by Doctor Vsher though there be both some deficiency in them in regard of some integrall parts and also some redundancy in regard of some superfluous Additaments that they are for substance the same with the Assemblies propounded in the form of Church Government 3 We sayd also in our Answer that the Proposalls of the Assemblies above mentioned were propounded in the yeare one thousand six hundred forty one by Doctor Vsher as an Expedient for the prevention of those Troubles which afterwards did arise about the matter of Church-Government but these things were mentioned by us 1. To shew the wisdome and moderation of the Proposer and how far off he was from the temper of sundry in those times who so they might preserve Episcopacy in the height that it was then grown to did not matter the engaging of three Kingdomes in a bloody War which also they did 2. That he was sensible of the great exorbitancy of Prelacy in those times and did interpose his endeavours to have reduced the Government of the Church neerer to the Primitive Pattern and whereunto it is confessed his Proposalls tended 3. But they were never mentioned by us to intimate that these Proposalls were to be the measure of that Reformation that was to be endeavoured after in these Nations not onely in regard of what we have to say against moderate Episcopacy and of which afterwards anon but also because they having not been hearkened unto by the late King nor by that Party that adhered to him who did their utmost to have upheld Episcopacy in its height it is not equall except what is there propounded could be proved to be necessary and by Divine Right after the effusion of so much blood for the deliverance of the People of God in these Nations from the miserable Yoke of Bondage they then sighed under and after the issuing of the War and the determining of the Controversie against that Party that they should be now admitted of to the Hazard of our dear-bought Liberty and the raysing up againe out of its Grave Episcopacy in the height of it and thereby the inslaving us again in as great Servitude or worse then ever before and of which hereafter further 4. But whereas you fully expect that for Vnity and Peace sake we should submit our selves to these Proposalls and that in regard of those full and free expressions of ours to that purpose we must here crave leave to declare our selves a little more fully 1 And first we do openly profess we are the same still in heart as we were formerly in our expressions neither shall we we hope by any provocations offered us by any Parties we have had to deal with or any oppositions we may hereafter meet with from them so far forget that duty that lyes upon us as not to endeavour after Peace to the utmost yea to pursue it even then when it seems to flye from us We remember that that God in whom we profess to have an Interest is the God of Peace that the Lord Jesus our great Master is stiled the Prince of Peace his precious blood being shed for to purchase it and that thereby the middle Wall of partition being broken down and the Enmity even the Law of Commandments contained in Ordinances being abolished in his flesh he might reconcile both Jews and Gentiles unto God in one body as we do profess we our selves were reconciled thereby unto God when we were Enemies 〈◊〉 We further confess That we are the Ambassadours of the Gospel of Peace that we are called unto Peace that a Blessing is promised unto Peace-makers and that in this juncture of Affairs when the common Enemies to the Protestant Religion are banding together against us it concerns all Parties neerly that have any true measure of soundness in them as they tender the safety of Religion their own and these Nations preservation from utter ruine to endeavour after Peace and Union which is our strength and an healing of Breaches And if we know our own hearts Peace is so deare to us that if through the tender mercies of our God it might be restored againe unto these Churches upon safe and honest tearmes we should not count the purchasing of it with our dearest blood to be too deare a rate to be payd for the obtaining of it considering that by the continuance of our Breaches and Divisions the Name of God is dishonoured his Doctrine blasphemed Scandals do grow are increased the Edification of the Church is hindred the power of Godliness impaired occasion of great stumbling is ministred to the weak and of triumph unto Enemies besides the advantage that is hereby put into their hands to undo us if they should have the opportunity although we must acknowledge it is no small reviving to our dying hopes that yet God may so far have mercy on us as to prevent what we have just ground to fear when we consider how many of our reverend Brethren in the Ministry in the severall Countries throughout the Land have united and associated themselves together and do pithily and earnestly exhort unto Union though some of them be of different Principles and Perswasions and that there is so far as we understand a greater inclination in all that are truly Godly throughout the Land unto Peace and Union then in former times and for which we bless God heartily as we do earnestly pray that the God of Peace would hasten to
we believe any indifferent Reader will discern are distinct things as the Parliament also in passing them distinguished them and therefore you should not have dealt so disingeniously with us as to have accounted the discourse impertinent which was necessary for your information if you were ignorant If you knowing these Orders and Ordinances would yet have this discourse impertinent notwithstanding your jerking us for calling our selves the first Classis within the Province of Lancaster which terms we told you we gave not to our selves till the Parliament had first given them us we leave it to the Reader what to judge of it Ninthly Here is also another strange assertion when you say it was no question of yours whether our Government be established by the Law of the Land when as in your first paper in the words thereof recited even now you told us of our making Laws and Edicts and publishing them contrary to the Laws in force and questioning whether we had not run our selves into a praemunire Doubtless if our Government be established by Ordinance of Parliament and that Ordinance awarrant us for whatever was published by us in the paper and yet that be asserted by you to be contrary to the Laws in force it must needs be a question of yours whether our Government be established by the Law of the Land as it is that which afterward you go about to prove that it wants the establishment of Authority and so however you dare not tell the Justices of the Peace that have acted on other Ordinances of Parliament that yet are also null and void if that we have acted on be that they are not thereby sufficiently secured against the danger of a praemunire yet you dare tell us of this once and again and yet also it be no question of yours whether our Church-Government be established by the Law of the Land but how contradictory these things are one unto another we leave it to be judged of As touching our starting more doubts then as you say we can assoyl we shall have leisure hereafter to examine in the place where you have a mind to encounter us and now shall follow you in the way you have chosen to go in And so we come unto the next The Gentlemens Paper Sect. II. To that mistake you charge us withall in the Preface of our Paper concerning the Title of yours we answer We finde in the close of that your â—aper these words This presentation is approved by this Provincial Assembly Tho. Johnson Moderator Edw. Gee Scribe So it is approved by the Provincial Assembly under that title of a presentation as we call it in all the Copies we have seen But this as you say might be the mistake of your Scribe and not to be insisted on It is of greater weight and moment you say to take notice of what we publish as our sense and apprehension of it viz. The matter contained in your Paper Not resting in the judgement or determination of any general Council contrary thereto If any such should be much less to one of your Provincial Assemblies c. And here you tell us of a publique and authoritative Judgement that is in Councils concerning matters of Doctrine and Discipline though tied to the rule of Gods Word in such proceedings as Judges to the Law to which we ought to be subject And how far is that viz. They have the power of expounding and explaining the difficult places of Scripture as the Judges have of the exposition of the Law And in this sense we ought to subject to the sense and determination of a general Council And therefore you say Questionless if in the time of S. Augustine who was no conâ—emner of Synods and Councils any in this sense had declared That they would not have submitted their apprehensions to their Judgement he would have cried out against them as well as against the Donatists O Impudentem Vocem And you hope when we have weighed the matter better we will not in this sense see any reason to refuse to submit either our sense and apprehension of your Paper or what we may publish as our own private judgements in other matters about Religion to the judgement of a generall Council supposing it might be had God forbid but we should submit neither need we for this to weigh the matter better for in this sense we have done and yet shall submit to any shall come hereafter Neither had you any reason so to judge your selves or induce others to that perswasion of us that we should in this sense refuse to submit our Judgements to the Judgement of any general Council Our words are plain We publish this our sense and apprehension of it as far as it is plain to us Which words you omitting deale not fairely with us and which words carry another sense with them For so far as the matter conteined in your Paper is plain to us we close and joyn with you Being as we explain our selves afterwards so fully warranted thereto by the Word of God and constant practise of the Catholique Church that therein so far as it is made thus plain unto us we shall not submit our Apprehensions to the Judgement of a general Council But by this Aposiopesis of yours you would make the World believe we refuse to submit our Judgements to the Judgement of a general Council not onely touching matters of faith and such Articles of Religion which are plainly warranted by Gods Word and constant practice of the Catholique Church But also touching matters which are not so plainly set forth in the word of God Touching which last we prosess our willing submission to the Judgement of a general Council and are glad to hear you of the same minde though we fear as we shall hear you declaring anon you will hardly grant that to a general Council which you seem to grant to your Provincial In which we dissent from you as we have said The Animadversions of the Class upon it FIrst We perceive you are resolved to stick to what you have once said though it be only the taking advantage of some litteral mistake and which in our answer we had told you was none of ours when you called our paper by the title of a presentation but imputed it to the Scribe speaking indefinitely which might be yours as well as ours though in your printed Copy you will have us to say what we did not that it was the mistake of our Scribe and however you say now that in all the Copies which you have seen which implies many you find in the close of that our paper these words this presentation is approved by this Provincial Assembly Thomas Johnson Moderator Edward Gee Scribe Yet we believe that if you be put upon the proof it will be hard for you to produce one Copy that was given forth by the Class and written by our Scribe where you find our paper approved by the Provincial
Scriptures and that the Word of God alone should determine this controversie c. Who can forbear laughter to see Scripturists under the Gospel as these under the Law Templum Domini Templum Domini crie Verbum Domini Verbum Domiui nothing but Scripture the Word of God being there the onely rule of faith and manners Take to your Bibles then and burn all other Books as the Anabaptists of old did who when they and their Bibles were left together what strange and Phantastical opinion soever came into their brain Their usual manner was to say The spirit taught it them as Mr Hooker in his preface to his Eccles Pol. The determination of Councils and Fathers and the Churches Universal practise for matters of Church Government must all be abandoned and then to that old Question of the Papists Where was your Church before Lutber or that of ours to you Where was your Church before Calvin Just like the Arguing of the Samaritanes with the Jeâ—â—s about the Antiquity of their Church on Mount Gerizim recorded by Joseplus per Saltum by a high Jump over all the Universal practise and successions of the Church you can make your Church and Church Government as ancient as you list by saying it is to be found in the Scriptures referring it to Christ and the Apostles nay higher yet if you please to the Jewish Sanhedrim 1500. years at least before Christ Mr Henderson will assist you much in thâ—s who in his dispute with his Majesty averring that Presbyterian Government was never practised before Calvins time replyeth Your Majesty knows the Cammon Objection of the Papists against the Reformed Churches Where was your Church your Reformation your Doctrine before Luthers time One part of the Common Answer is it is to be sound in the Scriptures the same I affirm of Presbyterian Government Thus he Make you such defence in behalf of your Church but thanks be to God the Protestant cause hath not doth not nor we hope will ever want far abler Disputants and Champions in her defence against her adversaries then he or you be For though we grant and shall ever pay that reverence to the sacred Scriptures that it is an unsallible unerring rule yet may we not crie up Scripture to the contempt and neglect of the Church which the Scripture it self teacheth men both to honour and obey We will indeavour therefore to give either their due according to Christs institution that the Scripture where it is plain should guide the Church and the Church where there 's doubt or difficulty should expound the Scriptures as saith a Bishop And you your selves may remember what you affirm of General Councils the Churches Representative nay more of your Provincial Assemblies even in your Answer to that you call the preface to our Paper That there is in them invested an Authoritative juridicall power to whose Authority you profess your selves to be subject and to which all ought to submit alledging 1 Cor. 14. 32. Matth. 18. and Acts 15. for proof hereof to Inquire into Trie Examine Censure and judge of Matters of Doctrine as well as of Discipline And tax us as if we refused to submit in such matters to the Judgement of a General Council Though here you retract and eat your own words casting it out as unsound and Hetrodox what was before a Christians duty to practise You still own subjection in matters of Doctrine and discipline to the Judgement and determination of your Provincial Assemblies though you deny the Authority of General Councils and the Catholique Church That those should be our guide and rule and comment upon the Word of God to tell us what is his will revealed there touching Church Government and discipline Said we not truely that you seem to submit to your Provincial what you will hardly grant to a General Council But the Church as we have said where there 's doubt or difficulty may expound the Scripture though it be tied as you have said to the rule of Gods Words in such proceedings as Judges to the Law and we are concluded and bound up by that as we are to those cases in the Law which are the Judgement and Exposition of the Judges upon the dark places of the same The Churches exposition and practise is our rule in such cases and the best rule too As our late King affirmeth viz. Where the Scripture is not so clear and punctuall in precepts there the constant and Vniversal practise of the Church in things not contrary to reason faith good manners or any positive command is the best rule that Christians can follow So when there is a difference about â—nterpretation of Scripture that we may not seem to abound in our own sense or give way to private interpretation Dominari fidei to Lord it over the faith of others we are not to utter our own phansies or desires to be believed upon our bare word but to deliver that sense which hath been a foretime given by our fore-Fathers and fore-runners in the Christian saith and so we necessarily make another Judge and rule for interpretation of Scripture or else we prove nothing Thus have the best and ablest defenders of our Protestant Religion defended it against the Papists out of the Word of God too but not according to their own but the sense which the Fathers unanimously in the primitive Church and Councils gave See Mr Philpot that glorious Martyr in Queen Maries dayes to the like Question propounded viz. How long hath your Church stood Answereth from the beginning from Christ from the Apostles and their Immediate Successors And for proof thereof desires no better rule then what the Papists many times bring in on their side to wit Antiquity Universality and Unity And Calvin acknowledgeth as in our last Paper we shewed you there can be no better nor surer remedy for Interpretation of Scripture then what the Fathers in the primitive Churches gave especially in the first four General Councils of Nice Constantinople Ephesus and Chalcedon which contain nothing saith he but the pure and genuine Interpretation of Scripture and which he professeth to embrace and reverence as hallowed and inviolable So they rest not in private interpretation but willingly submit to a judg and rule besides the Scriptures even such as the Papists themselves cannot except against viz. the primitive Churches practise and Universal and unanimous consent of Fathers and general Councils By these our Church is content to be tryed and to this rule we bring the Church Government to be tried thereby And on this score your Presbytery is quite our of doors being of examples and practise of the Church and Testimonies of the Fathers wholly destitute wherein as the King hath it the whole stream runs so for Episcopacy that that there 's not the least rivulet for any others Which you being sensible of have no way to evade this rule but una liturâ to blot out all records and monuments
answered to that Objection which you made out of our Paper wherein as you cut it short so you do manifestly deprave our words for though speaking of that which was to be the rule of deciding controversies touching Ghurch Government or of any other matters of Religion we said That the Word of God alone and then added which you here wholly leave out and the approved practice of the Church recorded there whether it was the universal and constant practice of the Church or no is to be the onely rule to judge by in this or any other controversies in matters of Religon yet we never said away therefore with the constant and universal practice of the hCurch this being an addition of your own and which when you profess to represent what we said was no more fair then your former substraction especially when such additions or substractions belonged to the true stating of the Question betwixt you and us although if the universall and constant practice of the Church must be added to the will and Word of God or it is not a sufficient and perfect rule whereby to guide us we may well then say away with the constant and Universal practice of the Church in this sense And yet in our Answer you might have taken notice that we said we did much honour and reverence the Primitive Churches although we professed we owed greater reverence to the Scriptures then to them and whereby we did not judg they were any whit disparaged as they themselves would never have thought upon such an expression But in our Answer after we had propounded the rule which you seemed to us to make for deciding of the controversie touching Church Government and other matters of Religion sc the Word or will of God and the constant and Universal practice of the Church as if the Word of God alone except confirmed or explained by the constant and Universal practice of the Church when there were any doubt about any matter as here you speak were not of it self sufficient to determine it and which is that rule which here you own we first supposing it were admitted of put you upon it to prove what was the Universal prctice of Primitive Churches in the matter of Church Government intimating to you that we thought it would be hard for you or any others to demonstrate out of any Records of Antiquity what thaâ— was for the whole space of three hundred years after Christ or the greatest part thereof excepting so much as was left upon record in the Scriptures of the new Testament for which we gave you our reasons unto which you say something after you had first vented your distemper against us for not admitting your rule but how satisfactory will come afterward to be examined In the next place we came to oppose the rule it self and for this also we gave you our reasons none of which you do either recite in your representation of what we had here said or return any answer to afterward and which is such a kind of replying to our Answer as we believe all ingenuous rationall men would have been ashamed of who would have conceived they were obliged either to have returned some answer to our arguments or to have never replyed at at all but been silent But seeing you mention them not we shall give the Reader a short account what they were and referre him to the answer it self where he may see them more fully The reasons we gave why we could not admit of the rule you laid down were three although we did not in our answer number them and which perhaps might be the reason why you might think if you took no notice of them such an escape might the more easily pass The first reason we urged against your rule was because thereby the Scriptures were accused as imperfect or as not having light enough in themselves for the resolving all doubts touching matters of faith and practice except it were first known what was the universal practice of Primitive Churches 2. The second was because admitting the constant and universal practice of Primitive Churches to be that which must assure us what is the will of God concerning Church Government our faith is hereupon resolved into a most uncertain ground and so made fallible and turned into opinion there being no monuments of antiquity besides the Scriptures that could infallibly assure us touching the matters of fact therein contained 3. Our third reason was because if we could be assured what was the universal and constant practice of the Primitive Churches yet that could not be a rule to us what is most consonant to the will of God considering that in such matters as are not absolutely necessary to salvation we did not see but the universal practice of the Churches might in some things be dissonant to the will of God revealed in Scriptures We here shewed there were corruptions and so failings in practice in the best of men instancing in the hot contention betwixt Paul and Bâ—rnabas Peters dissimulation Gal. 2. and not only in these Apostolical men but also in Apostolical Churches as of Corinth Galatia Asia and then shewed how afterward corruptions grew in the Church in Doctrine and Government as the Reader will see more fully upon perusall of our answer and where he will finde all these reasons though you here were pleased to take no notice of any of them But we hereupon inferred that whereas you say that you pray for the establishment of such Church Government as is most consonant to the will of God and universal practice of Primitive Churches we did believe you might cut the matter a great deal shorter which you eagerly catch at in the representation you make and say that you are for the establishing of that Government that is most consonant to the will of God revealed in the Scriptures and that the word of God alone and on which only faith must be built and into which at last be resolved when other records of antiquity that yet are not so ancient as it is have been searched into never so much shall determine what that is and so those wearisome and endless disputes about what is the universall and constant practice of Primitive Churches and which if it could not be found out in any good measure of probability for the first three hundred yeares after Christ could never yet be so far issued as to be a sure bottome whereon our faith may safely rest may be cut off it being a most certain rule and especially in matters of faith that the factum is not to prescribe against the jus the practice against the right or what ought to be done We have been the larger in making this representation of what we had answered because yours is here so short and also because you come not at all afterward to answer any of our reasons but fall upon us with foule language as if that were sufficient to answer an argument
Testament but also from the ould and which books proving the Presbyterian Government as from Christ and his Apostles so also from the Jewish judicatories to which some conceive Christ alludes Matth. 18. when he saith tell the Chutch which were appointed many hundred years before Christ and answering the opposers of this Government in all the materiall points that ever were objected against it by the greatest Champions for Episcopacy were never yet answered that we have seen to this day And for this assistance however you contemn it yet we bless God neither are we ashamed of Mr. Hendersons answer to his late Majesty telling him that the Presbyterian Government was to be found in the Scriptures as our Divines have answered the Papists sufficiently after the same manner touching other matters as we are not ashamed neither to make this defence on the behalf of our Church And though we thank God heartily for those farre abler disputants and Champions of the Protestant cause then we or any of us have ever pretended to be not thinking our selves worthy to be mentioned for any abilities amongst them yet we desire to know which of those Champions though they refused not to fight against the Papists with their own weapons sc the testimonies of Fathers and Councils did ever refuse the Scriptures as the sole judge and determiner of controversies in matters of Religion as you do or did they not rather stoutly and irrefragably maintain and defend this main point of faith against the adversary 5. But now you come to tell us what reverence you pay to the sacred Scripture for you say you acknowledg it to be an infallible and unerring rule And will not a Papist say so too But let us enquire of you will you acknowledge the Scripture to be the sole supreme judge of controversies in matters of faith Except you come up to this you are as yet in regard of any reverence you pay to the Scriptures no further then a Papist nay you joyn hands with them for they say as you do we may not cry up Scripture to the contempt and neglect of the Church which the Scripture it self teacheth men to honour and obey and sano sensu in a right and sound sense we shall say so too But you further declare your selves touching this matter and say that the Scripture where it is plain should guid the Church and the Church where there is doubt or difficulty should expound the Scriptures as saith a Bishop and you quote in your margent BP Laud's Preface that is not against Usher but Fisher * But here 1. You mistake the Question for it is not Whether to the Church belongeth not a Ministry for the expounding of the Scriptures This is readily granted to her by us as it is by our Protestant Divines and that the Texts you cite in the margent will prove 2. You plainly discover your opinion to be no other then what in this point is held by the Papists and is abundantly refuted by our Protestant Divines in their writings The matter is plainly thus and no otherwise for when you say where the Scripture is plain it must guid the Church but where there is a doubt or difficulty the Church is to expound the Scriptures you plainly insinuate that the Scriptute is not to be the sole and supreme judge touching controversies in Religion for there is no controversie in Religion but the Adversaries be they Antitrinitarians Arrians Papists or whomsoever may say as you here do in such and such points in controversie the Scripture is not plain here is a doubt and difficulty and we must stand to the Churches determination who is in such cases to expound the Scripture neither is the Scripture in such cases to be the onely sure infallible interpreter of it self to which all parties are to stand and in whose determination alone they are to rest and into which our faith must be resolved which yet is that which is maintained by our Protestant Divines against the Papists and of which we shall speak more fully anon Onely for the present we must mind you that this assertion is fetcht out of the dreggs of Popery and is such an opinion as all sound Protestants will disclaim neither do the Texts you cite in your margent prove any such a thing Not 1 Tim. 3. 15. that is usually urged by the Papists for that very opinion which you maintain but is sufficiently vindicated by our Divines shewing that the Church is there called the Pillar and ground of Truth in regard of her Ministry onely by her preaching publishing and defending the truth and thereby transmitting it to posterity but not to intimate that the Scripture in any point where there is doubt or difficulty did borrow authority from the Church no more then the Edicts of Princes do from the publishers of them or from the pillars and posts to which they are affixed that they might be the more generally known The other Text sc Cant. 1. 8. proves indeed that the Church hath a Ministry committed to her for the feeding of babes in Christ as well as stronger men which is not denied but if you will stretch it further its plain you wrest it 6. In the last place you urge us with what we our selves granted unto Synods and Councils acknowledging they were invested with an authoritative juridicall power to enquire into try examine censure and judge of matters of Doctrine as well as of Discipline and to whose authority we professed our selves to be subject and to which all ought to submit urging Scripture for it c. nothing whereof we do here retract or eat our own words casting that out as unsound and hetrodox as you say we do which before we acknowledged was a Christians duty to practise For here you do not distinguish betwixt the submission of our faith to the determination of Synods and Councils and the submission of our persons to their censure in regard of any matter of Doctrine held forth by us or any practice This latter submission we still do readily yeeld unto them and that in regard of the juridicall authority they are invested with by the Ordinance of God and this submission was that we professed before to yeeld unto them and was that we argued for But as touching the submission of our faith to their determinations or so as to resolve it into any other principles then the Word of God alone or to build it on any other foundation was not that reverence we ever acknowledged was to be paid to Synods and Councils and is that which here we do professedly deny And therefore you do here again no less then slander us when you say we still own subjection in matters of Doctrine and Discipline to the judgment and determination of our Provinciall Assembly and yet deny the Authority of General Councils and the Catholique Church whom neither we ever denied to be a guide or their Expositions of Scripture to be an usefull