that Proposition in terminis So here the very Foundation of A. C ' s. Dilemma fals off For I say not That onely the Points of the Creed are Fundamentall whether expressed or not expressed That all of them are that I say And yet though the Foundation of his Dilemma be fallen away I will take the boldnesse to tell A. C. That if I had said That those Articles onely which are expressed in the Creed are Fundamentall it would have beene hard to have excluded the Scripture upon which the Creed it selfe in every Point is grounded For nothing is supposed to shut out its owne Foundation And if I should now say that some Articles are Fundamentall which are infolded in the Creed it would not follow that therefore some unwritten Traditions were Fundamentall Some Traditions I deny not true and firme and of great both Authority and Vse in the Church as being Apostolicall but yet not Fundamentall in the Faith And it would be a mighty large fold which should lap up Traditions within the Creed As for that Tradition That the Bookes of holy Scriptures are Divine and Infallible in every part I will handle that when I come to the proper place * §. 16. N. 1. for it F. I asked how then it happened as M. Rogers saith that the English Church is not yet resolved what is the right sense of the Article of Christs Descending into Hell B. The English Church never made doubt that § 12 I know what was the sense of that Article The words are so plaine they beare their meaning before them Shee was content to put that a Art 3. Article among those to which she requires Subscription not as doubting of the sense but to prevent the Cavils of some who had beene too busie in Crucifying that Article and in making it all one with the Article of the Crosse or but an Exposition of it And surely for my part I thinke the Church of England is better resolved of the right sense of this Article then the Church of Rome especially if shee must be tryed by her Writers as you try the Church of England by M. Rogers For you cannot agree whether this Article be a meere Tradition or whether it hath any Place of Scripture to vvarrant it a Scotus in 1. D. 11. q. 1. Scotus and b Stapleton Relect. Con. 5. q. 5. Art 1. Stapleton allow it no footing in Scripture but c Bellarm 4. de Christo. c. 6. 12. Scripturae passim hoc docent Bellarmine is resolute that this Article is every where in Scripture and d Thom. 2 â—…ae q. 1. A 9 ad 1. Thomas grants as much for the whole Creed The Church of England never doubted it and S. e S. Aug. Ep. 99. Augustine prooves it And yet againe you are different for the sense For you agree not Whether the Soule of Christ in triduo mortis in the time of his Death did go downe into Hell really and was present there or vertually and by effects only For g Tho. p. 3. q. 52. A. 2. c. per suam essentiam Thomas holds the first and h Dur in 3. d. 22. q. 3. Durand the later Then you agree not Whether the Soule of Christ did descend really and in essence into the lowest pit of Hell and Place of the Damned as i Bellar. L. 4. do Christo. c. 16. Bellarmine once held probable and prooved it or really only into that place or Region of Hell which you call Limbum Patrum and then but vertually from thence into the Lower Hell to which k Bellar. Recog p. 11. Bellarmine reduces himselfe and gives his reason because it is the l Sequuntur enim Tho. p. 3. Q. 52. A. 2. common Opinion of the Schoole Now the Church of England takes the words as they are in the Creed and believes them without farther Dispute and in that sense which the ancient Primitive Fathers of the Church agreed in And yet if any in the Church of England should not be throughly resolved in the sense of this Article Is it not as lawfull for them to say I conceive thus or thus of it yet if any other way of his Descent be found truer then this I deny it not but as yet I know no other as it was for m Non est pertinaciter asserendum quin Anima Christi per alium modum nobis ignotum potuerit descendere ad Infernum Nec nos negamus alium modum esse for sit an veriorem sed fatemur nos illum ignor arc Durand in 3. sent Dist. 22. q. 3. Nu. 9. Durand to say it and yet not impeach the Foundation of the Faith F. The Bishop said That M. Rogers was but a private man But said I if M. Rogers writing as he did by publike Authority be accounted only a private man c. B. I said truth when I said M. Rogers was a private § 13 man And I take it you will not allow every speech of every man though allowed by Authority to have his Bookes Printed to be the Doctrine of the Church of Rome * And this was an Ancient fault too for S. Augustine checks at it in his time Noli colligere calumnias ex Episcoporum scriptis sive Hillarii sive Cypriani Agrippini Primò quia hoc genus literarum ab Authoritate Canonis distinguendum est Non enim sic leguntur tanquam it a ex iis testimonium proferatur ut contrà sentire non liceat sicubi fortè aliter sentirent quà m veritas postulat S. Aug. Ep. 48. c. And yet these were farre greater men in their generations then M. Rogers was This hath beene oft complained of on both sides The imposing particular mens assertions upon the Church yet I see you meane not to leave it And surely as Controversies are now handled by some of your party at this day I may not say it is the sense of the Article in hand but I have long thought it a kinde os descent into Hell to be conversant in them I would the Authors would take heed in time and not seeke to blinde the People or cast a mist before evident Truth least it cause a finall descent to that place of Torment But since you will hold this course Stapleton was of greater note with you then M. Rogers his exposition of Notes upon the Articles of the Church of England is with us And as he so his Relection And is it the Doctrine of the Church of Rome which Stapleton affirmes †Stapl. Cont. 5. q. 5. A. 1. The Scripture is silent that Christ descended into Hell and that there is a Catholike and an Apostolike Church If it be then what will become of the Popes Supremacie over the whole Church Shall he have his Power over the Catholike Church given him expresly in Scripture in the a S. Mat. 16. 19. Keyes to enter and in b S. Ioh. 21. 15. Pasce
no where so steddily placed in this world but it will be in some danger And men that care neither for the Hive nor the Bees have yet a great minde to the Honey And having once tasted the sweet of the Churches Maintenance swallow that for Honey which one day will be more bitter then Gall in their Bowells Now the King and the Priest more then any other are bound to looke to the Integrity of the Church in Doctrine and Manners and that in the first place For that 's by farre the Best Honey in the Hive But in the second place They must be Carefull of the Churches Maintenance too els the Bees shall make Honey for others and have none left for their owne necessary sustenance and then all 's lost For we see it in daily and common use that the Honey is not taken from the Bees but they are destroyed first Now in this great and Busie Worke the King and the Priest must not feare to put their hands to the Hive though they be sure to be stung And stung by the Bees whose Hive and House they preserve It was King Davids Case God grant it be never Yours They came about mee saith the Psal. 118. 12. Psal. 118. * Apum Similitudine ardorem not at vesanum Non est enim in illis multum roboris sed mira Excandescentia Calv in Psal. 118. like Bees This was hard usage enough yet some profit some Honey might thus be gotten in the End And that 's the Kings Case But when it comes to the Priest the Case is alter'd They come about him like VVaspes or like Hornets rather all sting and no Honey there And all this many times for no offence nay sometimes for Service done them would they see it But you know who said Behold I come shortly and my reward is with mee to give to every man according as his VVorkes shall bee Revel 22. And he himselfe is so Revel 22. 12. * Gen 〈◊〉 exceeding great a Reward as that the manifold stings which are in the World howsoever they smart here are nothing when they are pressed out with that exceeding weight of Glory which shall be revealed Rom. 8. Rom. 8. 18. Now one Thing more let me be bold to Observe to Your Majesty in particular concerning Your Great Charge the Church of England 'T is in an hard Condition Shee professes the Ancient Catholike Faith And yet the Romanist condemnes Her of Novelty in her Doctrine Shee practises Church Government as it hath beene in use in all Ages and all Places where the Church of Christ hath taken any Rooting both in and ever since the Apostles Times And yet the Separatist condemnes Her for Antichristianisme in her Discipline The plaine truth is She is between these two Factions as betweene two Milstones and unlesse Your Majesty looke to it to VVhose Trust She is committed Shee 'll be grownd to powder to an irrepairable both Dishonour and losse to this Kingdome And 't is very Remarkeable that while both these presse hard upon the Church of England both of them Crye out upon Persecution like froward Children which scratch and kicke and bite and yet crye out all the while as if themselves were killed Now to the Romanist I shall say this The Errors of the Church of Rome are growne now many of them very Old And when Errors are growne by Age and Continuance to strength they which speake for the Truth though it be farre Older are ordinarily challenged for the Bringers in of New Opinions And there is no Greater Absurdity stirring this day in Christendome then that the Reformation of an Old Corrupted Church will we nill wee must be taken for the Building of a New And were not this so we should never be troubled with that idle and impertinent Question of theirs VVhere was your Church before Luther For it was just there where their's is now * There is no other difference betweene Vs Rome then betwixt a Church miserably Corrupted and happily purged c. Ios. Hall B. of Exon. In his Apologeticall Advertisement to the Reader p. 192. Approved by Tho. Morton B. then of Cov. Lich. now of 〈◊〉 in the Letters printed by the B. of Exeter in his Treatise called The Reconciler p. 68 And D. Field in his Appen to the third part c. 2. where he cites Calv. to the same purpose L. 4. Inst. c. 2. §. 11. One and the same Church still no doubt of that One in Substance but not one in Condition of state and purity Their part of the same Church remaining in Corruption and Our part of the same Church under Reformation The same Naaman and he a Syrian still but Leprous with them and Cleansed with us The same man still And for the Seperatist and him that layes his Grounds for Separation or Change of Discipline though all hee sayes or can say be in Truth of Divinity and among Learned Men little better then ridiculous yet since these fond Opinions have gain'd some ground among your people to such among them as are wilfully set to follow their blinde Guides thorough thicke and thin till * S. Matth. 15. 14 they fall into the Ditch together I shall say nothing But for so many of them as meane well and are onely misled by Artifice and Cunning Concerning them I shall say thus much only They are Bells of passing good mettle and tuneable enough of themselves and in their owne disposition and a world of pity it is that they are Rung so miserably out of Tune as they are by them which have gotten power in and over their Consciences And for this there is yet Remedy enough but how long there will bee I know not Much talking there is Bragging Your Majesty may call it on both sides And when they are in their ruffe they both exceed all Moderation and Truth too So farre till both Lips and Penns open for all the World like a Purse without money Nothing comes out of this and that which is worth nothing out of them And yet this nothing is made so great as if the Salvation of Soules that Great worke of the Redeemer of the World the Sonne of God could not be effected without it And while the one faction cryes up the Church above the Scripture and the other the Scripture to the neglect and Contempt of the Church which the Scripture it selfe teaches men both to honour and obey They have so farre endangered the Beliefe of the One and the Authority of the Other as that neither hath its Due from a great part of Men. Whereas according to Christs Institution The Scripture where 't is plaine should guide the Church And the Church where there 's Doubt or Difficulty should expound the Scripture Yet so as neither the Scripture should be forced nor the Church so bound up as that upon Just and farther Evidence Shee may not revise that which in any Case hath slipt by Her
to feede when he is in and when he had fed to c S. Luk. 22. 35. Confirme and in all these not to erre and faile in his Ministration And is the Catholike Church in and over which he is to do all these great things quite left out of the Scripture Belike the Holy Ghost was carefull to give him his power Yes in any case but left the assigning of his great Cure the Catholike Church to Tradition And it were well for him if he could so prescribe for what he now Claymes But what if after all this M. Rogers there sayes no such thing As in truth he doth not His words are d Rogers in Art Eccle. Angl. Art 3. All Christians acknowledge He descended but in the interpretation of the Article there is not that consent that were to be wished What is this to the Church of England more then others And againe e Ibid. Till we know the native and undoubted sense of this Article is M. Rogers We the Church of England or rather his and some others Iudgement in the Church of England Now here A. C. will have somewhat againe to say though God knowes 't is to little purpose 'T is A. C. p. 47. that the Iesuite urged M. Roger's Booke because it was set out by Publike Authority And because the Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England A. C. may undoubtedly urge M. Rogers if he please But he ought not to say that his Opinion is the Doctrine of the Church of England for neither of the Reasons by him expressed First not because his Booke was publikely allowed For many Bookes among them as well as among us have beene Printed by publike Authority as containing nothing in them contrary to Faith and good manners and yet containing many things in them of Opinion only or private Iudgement which yet is farre from the avowed Positive Doctrine of the Church the Church having as yet determined neither way by open Declaration upon the words or things controverted And this is more frequent among their Schoolemen then among any of our Controversers as is well knowne Nor secondly because his Booke beares the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England For suppose the worst and say M. Rogers thought a little too well of his owne paines and gave his Booke too high a Title is his private Iudgement therefore to be accounted the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England Surely no No more then I should say every thing said by * Angelici D. S. Tho. Summa Thomas or †Celebratissimi Patris Dom. Bonaventurae Doctoris Seraphici in 3. L. Sent. Disputata Bonaventure is Angelicall or Seraphicall Doctrine because one of these is stiled in the Church of Rome Seraphicall and the other Angelicall Doctor And yet their workes are Printed by Publike Authority and that Title given them Yea but our private Authors saith A. C. are not allowed for ought I know in such a like sorte to expresse A. C. p. 47. our Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to Question Here are two Limitations which will goe farre to bring A. C. off whatsoever I shall say against him For first let me instance in any private man that takes as much upon him as M. Rogers doth he will say he knew it not his Assertion here being no other then for ought he knowes Secondly If he be unwilling to acknowledge so much yet he will answer 't is not just in such a like sort as M. Rogers doth it that is perhaps it is not the very Title of his Booke But well then Is there never a Private man allowed in the Church of Rome to expresse your Catholike Doctrine in any matter subject to question What not in any matter Were not Vega and Soto two private men Is it not a mâ—…tter subject to Question to great Question in these Dayes Whether a man may be certaine of his Salvation câ—…rtitudine fidei by the certainty of Faith Doth nâ—…t * Bellar. Lib. 3. de Justificat c. 1. 14. Bellarmine make it a Controversie And is it not a part of your Catholike Faith if it be determined in the †Huic Concilio Catholici omnes ingenia sua judicia sponte subjiciunt Bellar. 3. de Justif. c. 3. §. Sed Concilii Tridâ—…i Councell of Trent And yet these two great Friers of their time Dominicus Soto and Andreas Vega a Hist. Concil Trident. Lib. 2. p. 245. Edit Lat. Leidae 1622. were of contrary Opinions and both of them challenged the Decree of the Councell and so consequently your Catholike Faith to be as each of them concluded and both of them wrote Bookes to maintaine their Opinions and both of their Bookes were published by Authority And therefore I think 't is allowed in the Church of Rome to private men to expresse your Catholike Doctrine and in a matter subject to Question And therefore also if another man in the Church of England should be of a contrary Opinion to M. Rogers and declare it under the Title of the Catholike Doctrine of the Church of England this were no more then Soto and Vega did in the Church of Rome And I for my part cannot but wonder A. C. should not know it A. C. p. 47. For he sayes that for ought he knowes Private men are not allowed so to expresse their Catholike Doctrine And in the same Question both Catharinus and Bellarmine b Bellar. L. 3. de Iustif. c. 3. take on them to expresse your Catholike Faith the one differing from the other almost as much as Soto and Vega and perhaps in some respect more F. But if M. Rogers be only a private man in what Book may we finde the Protestants publike Doctrine The Bishop answered That to the Booke of Articles they were all sworne B. What Was I so ignorant to say The Articles § 14 of the Church of England were the Publike Doctrine of all the Protestants Or that all Protestants were sworne to the Articles of England as this speech seems to imply Sure I was not Was not the immediate speech before of the Church of England And how comes the Subject of the Speech to be varied in the next lines Nor yet speake I this as if other Protestants did not agree with the Church of England in the chiefest Doctrines and in the maine Exceptions which they joyntly take against the Romane Church as appeares by their severall Confessions But if A. C. will say as he doth that because there was speech before of the Church of A. C. p. 47. England the Iesuite understood mee in a limited sense and meant only the Protestants of the English Church Bee it so ther 's no great harme done †And therfore A. C. needs not make such a Noise about it as he doth p. 48 but this that the Iesuite offers to enclose me too much For I did not
say that the Booke of Articles only was the Continent of the Church of Englands publike Doctrine She is not so narrow nor hath she purpose to exclude any thing which she acknowledges hers nor doth she wittingly permit any Crossing of her publike Declarations yet she is not such a shrew to her Children as to deny her Blessing or Denounce an Anathema against them if some peaceably dissent in some Particulars remoter from the Foundation as your owne Schoole men differ And if the Church of Rome since she grew to her greatnesse had not beene so fierce in this Course and too particular in Determining too many things and making them matters of Necessary Beliefe which had gone for many hundreds of years before only for things of Pious Opinion Christendome I perswade my selfe had beene in happier peace at this Day then I doubt we shall ever live to see it Well but A. C. will proove the Church of England a Shrew and such a Shrew For in her Booke * Can. 5. of Canons A. C. p. 48. She Excommunicates every man who shall hold any thing contrary to any part of the said Articles So A. C. But surely these are not the very words of the Canon nor perhaps the sense Not the Words for they are Whosoever shall affirme that the Articles are in any part superstitious or erroneous c. And perhaps not the sense For it is one thing for a man to hold an Opinion privately within himselfe and another thing boldly and publikely to affirme it And againe 't is one thing to hold contrary to some part of an Article which perhaps may bee but in the manner of Expression and another thing positively to affirme that the Articles in any part of them are superstitious and erroneous But this is not the Maine of the Businesse For though the Church of England Denounce Excommunication as is a Can. 5. before expressed Yet She comes farre short of the Church of Rome's severity whose Anathema's are not only for 39. Articles but for very many more * Concil Trident. above one hundred in matter of Doctrine and that in many Poynts as farre remote from the Foundation though to the farre greater Rack of mens Consciences they must be all made Fundamentall if that Church have once Determined them whereas the Church A. C. p. 45. of England never declared That every one of her Articles are Fundamentall in the Faith For 't is one thing to say No one of them is superstitious or erroneous And quite another to say Every one of them is fundamental and that in every part of it to all mens Beliefe Besides the Church of England prescribes only to her owne Children and by those Articles provides but for her owne peaceable Consent in those Doctrines of Truth But the Church of Rome severely imposes her Doctrine upon the whole World under paine of Damnation F. And that the Scriptures only not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of their Faith B. The Church of England grounded her Positive § 15 Articles upon Scripture and her Negative doe refute there where the thing affirmed by you is not affirmed by Scripture nor directly to be concluded out of it And here not the Church of England only but all Protestants agree most truly and most strongly in this That the Scripture is sufficient to salvation and containes in it all things necessary to it The Fathers a S. Basil. de verâ piâ fide Manifesta defectio Fidei est importare quicquam eorum quae scripta non sunt S. Hilar. L. 2. ad Const. Aug. Fidem tantùm secundum ca quae scripta sunt desider autem hoc qui repudiat Antichristus est qui simulat Anathema est S. Aug. L. 2. de Doctr. Christian. c. 9. In iis quae apertè in Scriptura posita sunt inveniuntur illa omnia quae continent sidem mâ—…resque vivendi And to this place Bellarm L. 4. de verbo Dei non scripto c. 11. saith that S. Augustine speakes de illis Dogmatibus quae necestaria sunt omnibus simpliciter of those Points of faith which are necessary simply for all men So farre then he grants the question And that you may know it fell not from him on the suddaine he had said as much before in the beginning of the same Chapter and here he confirmes it againe are plaine the b Sâ—…tus Proleg in sent q. 2. Scriptura sufficienter continet Doctrinam necessariam Uiatori Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. A. 10. ad 1. In Doctrina Christi Apostolorum veritas fidei est suffi ientèr explicata And he speakes there of the written Word Schoolemen not strangers in it And have not we reason then to account it as it is The Foundation of our Faith And c Scripturam Fundamentum esse columnam Fidei fatemur in suo genere i. can genere Testimoniorum in materia Credendorum Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. in fine Stapleton himselfe though an angry Opposite confesses That the Scripture is in some sort the Foundation of Faith that is in the nature of Testimony and in the matter or thing to be believed And if the Scripture be the Foundation to which we are to goe for witnesse if there be Doubt about the Faith and in which we are to find the thing that is to be believed as necessary in the Faith we never did nor never will refuse any Tradition that is Universall and Apostolike for the better Exposition of the Scripture nor any Definition of the Church in which she goes to the Scripture for what she teaches and thrusts nothing as Fundamentall in the Faith upon the world but what the Scripture fundamentally makes materiam Credendorum the substance of that which is so to be believed whether immediatly and expresly in words or more remotely till a cleare and full Deduction draw it out Against the beginning of this Paragraph A. C. excepts And first he sayes 'T is true that the Church of England grounded her Positive Articles upon Scripture A. C. p. 48. That is 't is true if themselves may be competent Iudges in their owne Cause But this by the leave of A. C. is true without making our selves Iudges in our owne Cause For that all the Positive Articles of the present Church of England are grounded upon Scripture we are content to be judged by the joynt and constant Beliefe of the Fathers which lived within the first foure or five hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was at the best and by the Councels held within those times and to submit to them in all those Points of Doctrine Therefore we desire not to be Iudges in our owne Cause And if any whom A. C. cals a Novellist can truly say and maintaine this he will quickly proove himselfe no Novellist And for the Negative Articles they refute where the thing affirmed by you is either not affirmed in
erre if he keepe his chaire which yet he affirmes L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. Protestants so you will but understand it s not erring in Absolute Fundamentall Doctrines And therefore 't is true also that there can bee no just Cause to make a Schisme from the whole Church But here 's the Iesuite's Cunning. The whole Church with him is the Romane and those parts of Christendome which subject themselves to the Romane Bishop All other parts of Christendome are in Heresie and Schisme and what A. C. pleases Nay soft For another Church may separate from Rome if Rome will separate from Christ. And so farre as it separates from Him and the Faith so farre may another Church sever from it And thâ—…s is all that the Learned Protestants doe or can say And I am sure all that ever the Church of England hath either said or done And that the whole Church cannot erre in Doctrines absolutely Fundamentall and Necessary to all mens Saâ—…vation besides the Authority of these Protestants most of them being of prime ranke seemes to me to be cleare by the Promise of Christ S. Matth. 16 â—…hat the gates of Hell shall not prevaile S. Matth. 16. 18. against it Whereas most certaine it is that the Gates of Hell prevaile very farre against it if the Whole Militant Church universally taken can Erre from or in the Foundation But then this Power of not Erring is not to be conceived as if it were in the Church primò per se Originally or by any power it hath of it selfe For the Church is constituted of Men and Humanum est errare all men can erre But this Power is in it partly by the vertue of this Promise of Christ and partly by the Matter which it teacheth which is the unerring Word of God so plainely and manifestly delivered to her as that it is not possible she should universally fall from it or teach against it in things absolutely necessary to Salvation Besides it would be well waighed whether to believe or teach otherwise will not impeach the Article of the Creed concerning the Holy Catholike Church which we professe we believe For the Holy Catholike Church there spoken of containes not onely the whole Militant Church on earth but the whole Triumphant also in Heaven For so †Ecclesia hic tota accipiâ—…da est non solum ex parâ—…e quà pâ—…rinatur â—…terris c. vâ—…tiam ex illa parte quae in coelâ—… c. S. Aug. Eâ—…hir c 56. S. Augustine hath long since taught me Now if the whole Catholike Church in this large extent be Holy then certainly the whole Militant Church is Holy as well as the Triumphant though in a far lower degree in as much as all * Nemo ex toto Sanctus Optat. L 7 contra Parmen Sanctification all Holinesse is imperfect in this life as well in Churches as in Men. Holy then the whole Militant Church is For that which the Apostle speakes of Abraham is true of the Church which is a Body Collective made up of the spirituall seed of Abraham Rom. 11. If the root be holy so are the branches Well then the whole Militant Church is Holy Rom. 11. 16. and so we believe Why but will it not follow then Thaâ—… the whole Militant Church cannot possibly erre in the Foundations of the Faith That she may erre in Superstructures and Deductions and other by and unnecessary Truths if her Curiosity or other weaknesse carry her beyond or cause her to fall short of her Rule no doubt need be made But if She can erre either from the Foundation or in it She can be no longer Holy and that Article of the Creed is gone For if She can erre quite from the Foundation then She is nor Holy nor Church but becomes an Infidell Now this cannot be For †Dum Christus or at in Excelso Návicula id est Eâ—…clesia â—…tur fluctibus in profundo c sed quia Christus orat non potest mergi S. Aug. Serm 14 de Verb. Domi. c 2. Et Bâ—…llar L. 3 ac Eccle Milit c. 13. Praesidiâ—… Christi fulâ—…itur Ecclâ—…siae perpetuitas ut inter turbulentas aâ—…itationes formiâ—…abiles mâ—…tus c. salva tamâ—…n maneat Câ—… L. 2. Instit c. 15. §. 3. Ipsa Symboli 〈◊〉 admonemur perpetuam residâ—…re in Ecclesia Christi remission m Peccatorum Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 1. §. 17. Now remission of sins cannot be perpetuall in the Church if the Church it selfe be 〈◊〉 perpetuall But the Church it selfe cannot be perpetuall if it fall away all Divine Ancient and Moderne Romanists and Reformers agree in this That the whole Militant Church of Christ cannot fall away into generall Apostacy And if She Erre in the Foundation that is in some one or more Fundamentall Poynts of Faith then Shee may bee a Church of Christ still but not Holy but becomes Hereticall And most certain it is that no * Spiritus Sanctificationis non pâ—…ost inveniri in Haereticorum mentibus S. Hierom in Ierom. 10. Assemâ—…ly be it never so generall of such Hereticks is or can be Holy Other Errors that are of a meaner alay take not Holinesse from the Church but these that are dyed in graine cannot consist with Holinesse of which Faith in Christ is the very Foundation And therefore if we will keepe up our Creed the whole Militant Church must be still Holy For if it be not so still then there may be a time that Falsum may subesse Fidei Catholicae that falshood and that in a high degree in the very Article may be the Subject of the Catholike Faith which were no lesse then Blasphemy to affirme For we must still believe the Holy Catholike Church And if She be not still Holy then at that time when She is not so we believe a Falshood under the Article of the Catholike Faith Therefore a very dangerous thing it is to cry out in generall termes That the whole Catholike Militant Church can Erre and not limit nor distinguish in time that it can erre indeed for Ignorance it hath and Ignorance can Erre But Erre it cannot either by falling totally from the Foundation or by Hereticall Error in it For the Holinesse of the Church consists as much if not more in the Verity of the Faith as in the Integrity of Manners taught and Commanded in the Doctrine of Faith Now in this Discourse A. C. thinkes he hath met with me For he tells me that I may not only safely grant A. C. p. 56. that Protestants made the Division that is nâ—…w in the Church but further also and that with a safe Confidence as one did was it not you saith he That it was ill done of those who did first made the Separation Truly I doe not now remember whether I said it or no. But because A. C. shall have full satisfaction from me and without any Tergiversation if I did not
the Church of Christ. And this is said to have amounted into a formall Separation from the Church of Rome and to have continued for the space of somewhat more then one hundred yeares Now that such a Separation there was of the African Church from Rome and a Reconciliation after stands upon the Credit and Authority of two publike Instruments extant both among the Ancient Councels The one is an a Epist. Bonifacii 2. apud Nicol. To. 2. Concil p. 544. Epistle from Boniface the second in whose time the Reconciliation to Rome is said to be made by Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage but the Separation Instigante Diabolo by the Temptation of the Divil The other is an b Exemp PrecuÌ„ apud Nicolin Ibid. p. 525. Exemplar PrecuÌ„ or Copie of the Petition of the same Eulalius in which he damnes and curses all those his Predecessors which went against the Church of Rome Amongst which Eulalius must needes Curse S. Augustine And Pope Boniface accepting this Submmission must acknowledge that S. Augustine and the rest of that Councell deserved this Curse and dyed under it as violating Rectae Fidei Regulam the Rule of the Right Faith so the Exemplar Precum beginnes by refusing the Popes Authority I will not deny but that there are divers Reasons given by the Learned Romanists and Reformed Writers for and against the Truth and Authority of both these Instruments But because this is too long to be examin'd here I wil say but this and then make my use of it to my present purpose giving the Church of Rome free leave to acknowledge these Instruments to be true or false as they please That which I shall say is this These Instruments are let stand in all Editions of the Councels and Epistles Decretall As for Example in the Old Edition by Isidor Anno. 1524. And in another Old Edition of them Printed Anno. 1530. And in that which was published by P Crabbe Anno. 1538. And in the Edition of Valentinus Ioverius Anno. 1555. And in that by Surius Anno. 1567. And in the Edition at Venice by Nicolinus Anno. 1585. And in all of these without any Note or Censure upon them And they are in the Edition of Binius too Anno. 1618. but there 's a Censure upon them to keepe a quarter it may be with * Baron Annal. An. ad 4 9. Nu. 93. 94. Baronius who was the first I think that ever quarrelled them and he doth it tartly And since †Ualde mihi illa Epistola suspecta sunt Bellar. L. 2. de Ro. Pont. c. 25. § Respondeo primum Sed si fortè illa Epistola verae sunt nihil enim affirmâ—… c. Ibid. § ult Bellarmine followes the same way but more doubtfully This is that which I had to say And the Vse which I shall make of these Instruments whether they be true or false is this They are either true or false that is of necessity If they be false then Boniface the Second and his Accomplices at Rome or some for them are notorious Forgers and that of Records of great Consequence concerning the Government and Peace of the whole Church of Christ and to the perpetual Infamie of that Sea and all this foolishly and to no purpose For if there were no such Separation as these Records mention of the Africane Churches from the Romane to what end should Boniface or any other counterfeit an Epistle of his owne and a Submission of Eulalius On the other side if these Instruments be true as the sixth Councell of Carthage against all other Arguments makes me incline to believe they are in Substance at least though perhaps not in all Circumstances then 't is manifest that the Church of Africk separated from the Church of Rome That this Separation continued above one hundred yeares That the Church of Africke made this Separation in a Nationall Councell of their owne which had in it two hundred and seventeene Bishops That this Separation was made for ought appeares only because they at Rome were too ready to entertaine Appeales from the Church of Africke as appeares in the Case of * And so the Councell of Carthage sent word to Pope Calestine plainly that in admitting such Appeales he brake the Decrees of the Councell of Nice Epist. Concil Africa ad Calestinum c. 105. Apud Nicolin Tom. 1. Concil p. 844. Apiarius who then appealed thither That S. Augustine Eugenius Fulgentius and all those Bishops and other Martyrs which suffered in the Uandalike Persecution dyed in the time of this Separation That if this Separation were not just but a Schisme then these Famous Fathers of the Church dyed for ought appeares in Actuall and unrepented Schisme †Planè ex Ecclesiae Catholicae albo Expâ—…ngenda fâ—…issent Sâ—…nctorum Africanorum Martyrum Agâ—…ina qui in persecutione Vandalica pro Fide Catholica c. Baron Ann. 419. Num. 93. Et Binius In Notis ad Epist. Bomfacii 2. ad Eulalium and out of the Church And if so then how comes S. Augustine to be and be accounted a Saint all over the Christian world and at Rome it selfe But if the Separation were just then is it farre more lawfull for the Church of England by a Nationall Councell to cast off the Popes Vsurpation as * §. 24. Nu. 5. She did then it was for the African Church to separate Because then the African Church excepted only against the Pride of Rome †Belâ—… 2. de Ro. Pont. c. 25. §. 2. in Case of Appeales and two other Canons lesse materiall But the Church of England excepts besides this Grievance against many Corruptions in Doctrine belonging to the Faith with which Rome at that time of the African Separation was not tainted And I am out of all doubt that S. August and those other Famous men in their generations durst not thus have separated from Rome had the Pope had that powerfull Principality over the whole Church of Christ And that by Christs owne Ordinance and Institution as A. C. pretends he had A. C. p. 58. I told you a little * §. 25. Nu. 10. before that the Popes grew under the Emperors till they had over-grown them And now lest A. C. should say I speake it without proofe I will give you a briefe touch of the Church-story in that behalfe And that from the beginning of the Emperors becomming Christians to the time of Charles the Great which containes about five hundred yeares For so soone as the Emperors became Christian the Church which before was kept under by persecutions began to be put in better order For the calling and Authority of Bishops over the Inferiour Clergie that was a thing of kâ—…owne use and benefit for Preservation of Unity and Peace in the Church And so much †Quòd autem postea Vxus electus est qui cateris praporerâ—…ur in Schismatis remedium fallum est ne unusquisque ad se trahens Christi
force me to dissent And in that Case I shall do it without Contempt too This onely I will say b Nemini in sua causa eredendum nisi conformitter ad Legem Divinam Naturalem Canouicam loquatur So Io. Gerson the Doctors of Paris cited in Lib. Anon. de Ecclesiastica Politica Potestate c. 16. Ed. Paris 1612. Now these Popes doe not speak here conformably to these Lawes That Sixe Popes concurring in opinion shall have lesse waight with me in their own Cause than any other Sixe of the more Ancient Fathers Indeed could I swallow b L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. Bellarmines Opinion That the Popes Iudgement is Infallible I would then submit without any more adoe But that will never downe with me unlesse I live till I doate which I hope in God I shall not Other Proofes than these Bellarmine brings not to prove that the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in or from the Faith And of what force these are to sway any Iudgement I submit to all indifferent Readers And having thus examined Bellarmines Proofes That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in Faith I now returne to A. C. and the A. C. p. 42. Iesuite and tell them that no Iesuite or any other is ever able to prove any Particular Church Infallible But for the Particular Church of Rome and the Pope with it erred it hath And therefore may erre Erred I say it hath in the Worship of Images and in altering Christs Institution in the blessed Sacrament by taking away the Cup from the People and diverse other particulars as shall appeare at †§. 33. Consid. 7. Num. 5. 12 after And as for the Ground which is presumed to secure this Church from Errour 't is very remarkable How the c Romanae Ecclesia Particularis non potest errare persistente Romae Apostolicá sede Propositio haec est verissima fortasse tam vera quam illa prima de Pontifice L. 4 de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. And that first proposition is this Summus Pontifex cum totam Ecclesiam docet in his quae ad fidem pertinent nullo casu errare potest Ibid. c. 3. §. 1. Learned Cardinall speakes in this Case For he tells us that this Proposition So long as S. Peter's Chaire is at Rome that Particular Church cannot erre in the Faith is verissima most true and yet in the very next words 't is Fortasse tam vera peradventure as true as the former that is That the Pope when he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the faith cannot erre in any case What is that Proposition most true And yet is it but at a peradventure 't is as true as this Is it possible any thing should be absolutely most true and yet under a Peradventure that it is but as true as another truth But here without all Peradventure neither Proposition is true And then indeed Bellarmine may say without a Fortasse That this proposition The Particular Church of Rome cannot erre so long as the Sea Apostolike is there is as true as this The Pope cannot erre while he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the Faith For neither of them is true But he cannot say that either of them is verissima most true when neither of them hath Truth 2. Secondly if the Particular Church of Rome be Infallible and can neither erre in the Faith nor fall from it then it is because the Sea Apostolike cannot be transferred from Rome but must ever to the consummation of the World remaine there and keepe that Particular Church from erring Now to this what sayes Bellarmine what why he tells us a Pia probabilissima Sententia est Cathedram Petri non posse separari à Româ proinde Romanam Ecclesiam absolutè non posse errare vel deficere L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. Quod nihilominus That it is a pious and most probable Opinion to thinke so And he reckons foure Probabilities that it shall never be remov'd from Rome And I will not deny but some of them are faire Probabilities But yet they are but Probabilities and so unable to convince any man Why but then what if a man cannot thinke as Bellarmine doth but that enforced by the light of his understanding he must thinke the quite contrary to this which Bellarmine thinks pious and so probable What then Why then b Contraria sententia nee est Haeretica nee manifestè erronea L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. At socundum Bellarmine himselfe tells you that the quite contrary Proposition to this namely That S. Peter's Chayre may be severed from Rome and that theâ—… that Particular Church may erre is neither Haereticall nor manifestly erroneous So then by Bellarmines owne Confession I am no Haereticke nor in any manifest error if I say as indeed I doe and thinke it too that 't is possible for S. Peter's Chaire to be carried from Rome and that then at least by his owne argument that Church may erre Now then upon the whole matter and to returne to A. C. If that Lady desired to rely upon a A. C. p. 42. particular infallible Church 't is not to be found on earth Rome hath not that gift nor her Bishop neither And Bellarmine who I thinke was as able as any Champion that Church hath dares not say t is either Haeresie or a manifest error to say That the Apostolike Sea may be removed thence and That Church not only erre in Faith but also fall quite away from it Now I for my part have not ignorance enough in me to believe That that Church which may Apostatize at some one time may not erre at another Especially since both her erring and failing may arise from other Causes besides that which is mention'd by the Cardinall And if it may erre 't is not Infallible F. The Question was Which was that Church A friend of the Ladies would needs defend That not only the Romane but also the Greek Church was right B. When that Honourable Personage answered § 4 I was not by to heare But I presume He was so farre from granting that only the Romane Church was right as that He did not grant it right And that He tooke on him no other Defence of the poore Greeke Church then was according to truth F. I told him That the Greeke Church had plainly changed and taught false in a Poynt of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost and That I had hear'd say that even His Majestie should say That the Greeke Church having erred against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost B. You are very bold with His Majesty to § 5 relate Him upon Heare-say My Intelligence serves me not to tell you what His Majestie said But if he said it not you have beene too credulous to believe and too suddaine to report it Princes deserve and were
another intùs est is not another contrary thing but is contained within the Bowels and nature of that which is interpreted from which if the Declaration depart it is faulty and erroneous because instead of Declaring it gives another and contrary c Hoc semper nec quicquam praeterea Vin. Lyr. c. 32. sense Therefore when the Church declares any thing in a Councell either that which she declares was intùs or extrà in the Nature and verity of the thing or out of it If it were extrà without the nature of the thing declared then the Declaration of the thing is false and so farre from being Fundamentall in the Faith d In novâ Haeresi Veritas prius erat de Fide et si non ita deâ—… rata Scotus in 1. D. 11. q. 〈◊〉 fine Haeretici multa quae erâ—… implicita sidei nostra compâ—… runt explicare Bonavent in 〈◊〉 D. 11. A. 1. Q. 1. ad finem Tho. 1. q. 36. A. 2. ad 2. Quamvis Apostolica Sedes aut Generale Concilium de Haeresi censere possit non tamen ideò Assertio aliqua erit Haeresis qui. Ecclesia definivit sed quia 〈◊〉 dei Catholica repugnat Ecclesia siquidèm suâ definitione 〈◊〉 facit talem Assertionem esse Haeresin quùm etiamsi ipsa non definivisset esset Haeresis sed id efficit ut paeteat c. Alphon à Castro L. 1. Advers Haeres c. 8. fol. 21. D. If it were intùs within the Compasse and nature of the thing though not open and apparent to every eye then the Declaration is true but not otherwise Fundamentall than the thing is which is declared for that which is intùs cannot be larger or deeper than that in which it is if it were it could not be intùs Therefore nothing is simply Fundamentall because the Church declares it but because it is so in the nature of the thing which the Church declares And it is a slight and poore Evasion that is commonly used that the Declaration of the Church makes it Fundamentall quoad nos in respect of us for it doth not that neither For no respect to us can varie the Foundation The Churches Declaration can binde us to peace and externall Obedience where there is not expresse Letter of Scripture and sense agreed on but it cannot make any thing Fundamentall to us that is not so in its owne nature For if the Church can so adde that it can by a Declaration make a thing to be Fundamentall in the faith that was not then it can take a thing away from the Foundation and make it by Declaring not to be Fundamentall which all men grant no power of the Church can doe e Ecclesia non amputat necessaria non apponit superâ—…ua Vin. Lir. c. 32. Deut. 4. 2. For the power of adding any thing contrary and of detracting any thing necessary are alike forbidden * Thom. Supp q. 6. A. 6. C. and alike denyed Now nothing is more apparent then this to the eye of all men That the Church of Rome hath determined or declared or defined call it what you will very many things that are not in their owne nature Fundamentall and therefore neither are nor can be made so by her adjudging them Now to all this Discourse That the Church hath not power to make any thing Fundamentall in the Faith that intrinsecally and in its owne nature is not such A. C. is content to say nothing 2. For the second That it is prooved by this place of S. Augustine That all Poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall You might have given me that Place cited in the Margin and eased my paines to seeke it but it may be there was somewhat in concealing it For you doe so extraordinarily right this Place that you were loth I thinke any body should see how you wrong it The place of S. Augustine is this against the Pelagians about Remission of Originall sinne in Infants * August Serm. 14. de verb. Apost c. 12. Fundata res est In aliis Quastionibus non diligentèr digestis nondum plenâ Ecclesiae Authoritate sirmatis ferendus est Disputator errans ibi ferendus est error non tantum progredi debet ut etiam Fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quatere moliâ—… This is a thing founded An erring Disputer is to be borne with in other Questions not diligently digested not yet made firme by full Authority of the Church there error is to be borne with but it ought not to goe so farre that it should labour to shake the Foundation it selfe of the Church This is the Place but it can never follow out of this Place I thinke That every thing defined by the Church is Fundamentall For first he speakes of a Foundation of Doctrine in Scripture not a Church definition This appeares for few lines before he tels us b Ibid. cap. 20. There was a Question moved to S. Cyprian Whether Baptisme was concluded to the eight Day as well as Circumcision And no doubt was made then of the c Origine Peccati beginning of sin and that d Ex eâ re unde nulla erat Quaestio soluta est exorta Quaestio out of this thing about which no Question was mooved that Question that was made was Answered And e Hoc de Fundamento Ecclesiae sumpsit ad confirmandum Lapidem nut antem againe That S. Cypryan tooke that which he gave in answer from the Foundation of the Church to confirme a stone that was shaking Now S. Cyprian in all the Answer that he gives hath not one word of any Definition of the Church therefore ea res That thing by which he answered was a Foundation of prime and setled scripture-Scripture-Doctrine not any Definition of the Church Therefore that which he tooke out of the Foundation of the Church to fasten the stone that shooke was not a Definition of the Church but the Foundation of the Church it selfe the Scripture upon which it is builded as appeareth in the f Concil Milevit c. 2. Milevitane Councell where the Rule by which Pelagius was condemned is the Rule of g Rom. 5. 15. Scripture Therefore Saint Augustine goes on in the same sense That the Disputer is not to be borne any longer that shall h Vt Fundamentum ipsum Ecclesiae quatere moliatur endeavour to shake the Foundation it selfe upon which the whole Church is grounded Secondly if S. Augustine did meane by Founded and Foundation the definition of the Church because of these words This thing is Founded this is made firm by full Authority of the Church and the words following these to shake the foundation of the Church yet it can never follow out of any or all these Circumstances and these are all That all Poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall in the faith For first no man denies but the Church is a c 1 Tim. 3. 15. Foundation That things defined
by it are founded upon it And yet hence it cannot follow That the thing that is so founded is Fundamentall in the Faith For things may be d Mos fundatissimus S. Aug. Ep. 28. founded upon Humane Authority and be very certaine yet not Fundamentall in the Faith Nor yet can it follow This thing is founded therefore every thing determined by the Church is founded Again that which followes That those things are not to be opposed which are made firme by full Authority of the Church cannot conclude they are therefore Fundamentall in the Faith For full Church Authority alwayes the time that included the Holy Apostles being past by and not comprehended in it is but Church Authority and Church Authority when it is at full sea is not simply e Staple Rebect cont 4. q. 3. A. 1. Divine therefore the Sentence of it not fundamentall in the Faith And yet no erring Disputer may be endured to shake the foundation which the Church in Councell layes But plaine Scripture with evident sense or a full Demonstrative Argument must have Roome where a wrangling and erring Disputer may not be allowed it And ther 's f Quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur ut in dubium venire non possit praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in Catholicâ teneor Ita si aliquid apertissimum in Evangelio S. Aug. contra Fund c. 4. neither of these but may Convince the Definition of the Councell if it be ill founded And the Articles of the faith may easily proove it is not Fundamentall if indeed and verily it be not so And I have read some body that sayes is it not you That things are fundamentall in the Faith two wayes One in their Matter such as are all things which be so in themselves The other in the Manner such as are all things that the Church hath Defined and determined to be of Faith And that so some things that are de modo of the manner of being arc of Faith But in plaine truth this is no more then if you should say some things are Fundamentall in the faith and some are not For wrangle while you will you shall never be able to proove that any thing which is but de modo a consideration of the manner of being only can possibly be Fundamentall in the faith And since you make such a Foundation of this Place I will a little view the Mortar with which it is laid by you It is a venture but I shall finde it a Ezek. 13. 11. untempered Your Assertion is All poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall Your proofe this Place Because that is not to be shaken which is setled by b Plenâ Ecclesiae Authoritate full Authority of the Church Then it seemes your meaning is that this poynt there spoken of The remission of Originall sinne in Baptisme of Infants was defined when S. Augustine wrote this by a full Sentence of a Generall Councell First if you say it was c 1. 2. de Author Concil c. 5. §. A solis particularibus Bellarmine will tell you it is false and that the Pelagian Heresie was never condemned in an Oecumenicall Councell but only in Nationalls But Bellarmine is deceived For while the Pelagians stood out impudently against Nationall Councels some of them defended Nestorius which gave occasion to the first d Can. 1. 4. Ephesine Councell to Excommunicate and depose them And yet this will not serve your turne for this Place For S. Augustine was then dead and therefore could not meane the Sentence of that Councell in this place Secondly if you say it was not then Defined in an Oecumenicall Synode Plena authoritas Ecclesiae the full Authority of the Church there mentioned doth not stand properly for the Decree of an Oecumenicall Councell but for some Nationall as this was condemned in a * Concil Milevit Can. 2 Nationall Councell And then the full Authority of the Church here is no more then the full Authority of this Church of †Nay if your owne Capellus be true De Appell Eccl Afric c. 2. n. 5. It was â—…ut a Provinciall of Numidia not a Plenary of Africk Africk And I hope that Authority doth not make all Points defined by it to be Fundamentall You will say yes if that Councell be confirmed by the Pope And then I must ever wonder why S. Augustine should say The full Authority of the Church and not bestow one word upon the Pope by whose Authority only that Councell as all other have their fulnesse of Authority in your Iudgement An inexpiable Omission if this Doctrine concerning the Pope were true But here A. C. steps in againe to helpe the Iesuite and he tells us over and over againe That all A. C. p. 45. points made firme by full Authority of the Church are Fundamentall so firme he will have them and therefore fundamentall But I must tell him That first 't is one thing in Nature and Religion too to be firme and another thing to be fundamentall These two are not Convertible T is true that every thing that is fundamentall is firme But it doth not follow that every thing that is firme is fundamentall For many a Superstructure is exceeding firme being fast and close joyned to a sure foundation which yet no man will grant is fundamentall Besides what soever is fundamentall in the faith is fundamentall to the Church which is one by the vnity a Almain in 3. Sent. Dis. 25. q. 2. A Fide enim unà Ecclesia dicitur una of faith Therefore if every thing Defined by the Church be fundamentall in the faith then the Churches Definition is the Churches Foundation And so upon the matter the Church can lay her owne foundation and then the Church must be in absolute and perfect Being before so much as her Foundation is laide Now this is so absurd for any man of learning to say that by and by after A. C. is content to affirm not only that the prima Credibilia the Articles of Faith but all which so pertaines to Supernaturall Divine and Infallible Christian Faith as that thereby Christ doth dwell in our hearts c. is the Foundation of the Church under Christ the Prime Foundation And here he 's out againe For first all which pertaines to Supernaturall Divine and Infallible Christian Faith is not by and by b Aliquid pertinet ad Fidem dupliciter Uno modo directè sicut ea quae nobis sunt principalitèr divinitùs tradita ut Deum esse Trinum c. Et circa haec opinari falsum hoc ipso inducit Haeresin c. Alio modo indirectè Ex quibus consequitur aliquid contrarium Fidei c. Et in his aliquis potest falsum opinari absque periculo Haeresis donec Sequela illa ei innotescat c. Tho. p. 1. q. 32. A. 4. C. There are things Necessary to the Faith and
Testificandum de Christo Legibus ejus vilior est Christi legibus Scripturis Sanctis necessariò postponenda Wald. L. 2. Doct. Fidei Art 2. cap. 21. Numb 1. though this be contrary to their owne Doctrine must bee finally Resolved into the Authority of the Present Romane Church And though they would seeme to have us believe the Fathers and the Church of old yet they will not have us take their Doctrine from their owne Writings or the Decrees of Councels because as they say wee cannot know by reading them what their meaning was but from the Infallible Testimony of the present Romane Church teaching by Tradition Now by this two things are evident First That they ascribe as great Authority if not greater to a part of the Catholike Church as they doe to the whole which wee believe in our Creede and which is the Society of all Christians And this is full of Absurdity in Nature in Reason in All things That any c Totum est majus suâ parte Etiamsi Axioma sit apud Euclâ—…dem non tamen ideò Geometricum put andum est quia Geometres to utitur Vtitur enim tota Logica Ram in Schol. Matth. And Aristotle vindicates such Propositions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from being vsurped by Particular Sciences 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Quia conveniunt omni Eâ—…ti non alicui Generi separatim 4. Metapb cap. 3. T. 7. Part should bee of equall worth power credit or authority with the Whole Secondly that in their Doctrine concerning the Infallibility of their Church their proceeding is most unreasonable For if you aske them Why they believe their whole Doctrine to be the sole true Catholike Faith Their Answer is Because it is agreeable to the Word of God and the Doctrine and Tradition of the Ancient Church If you aske them How they know that to be so They will then produce Testimonies of Scripture Councells and Fathers But if you aske a third time By what meanes they are assured that these Testimonies doe indeed make for them and their Cause They will not then have recourse to Text of Scripture or Exposition of Fathers or phrase and propriety of Language in which either of them were first written or to the scope of the Author or the d Intelligentia dictorum ex causis est assumenda dicendi quia non Sermonires sed Rei Sermo est subjectus S. Hilar. L. 4. de Trin. Ex materiâ dicti dirigendus est sensus Tert. L. de Resur carnis c. 37. Causes of the thing uttered or the Conference with like e Uidendo differentias Similium ad Similia Orig. Tract 19 in S Matth. Places or the Anteceden's f Recolendum est unde venerit ista Sententia qua illam superiora pepererint quibúsque connexa dependeat S. Aug. Ep. 29 Solet circumstantia Scriptura illuminare Sementiam S. Aug. L. 83. Quaest. q. 69. and Consequents of the same Places g Quae ambiguè obscurè in nonnullis Scripturae Sacrae locis dicta videntur per ea quae alibi certa indubitata habentur dâ—…clarantur S Basil in Regulis contractis Reg. 267. Manifestiora quaeque praevaleant de incertis certiora praescribant Tert. L. de Resur c. 19 21. S. Aug. L. 3. De Doct Christ. c. â—…6 Moris est Scripturarum obscuris Manifesta subnectere quod prius sub aenigmatibus dixerint apertâ voce proferre S. Hieron in Esa 19. princ Uide §. 26. Nu. 4. or the Exâ—…osition of the darke and doubtfull Places of Scripture by the undoubted and manifest With divers other Rules given for the true knowledge and understanding of Scripture which do frequently occurre in h S. Aug. L. 3. de Doctr. Christianâ S. Augustine No none of these or the like helpes That with them were to Admit a Private Spirit or to make way for it But their finall Answer is They know it to be so because the present Romane Church witnessethit according to Tradition So arguing à primo ad ultimum from first to last the Present Church of Rome and her Followers believe her owne Doctrine and Tradition to bee true and Catholike because she professes it to be such And if this bee not to proove idem per idem the same by the same I know not what is which though it be most absurd in all kind of learning yet out of this I see not how 't is possible to winde themselves so long as the last resolution of their Faith must rest as they teach upon the Tradition of the present Church only It seemes therefore to mee very necessary * And this is so necessary that Bellarmine confesses that if Tradition which he relies upon be not Divine He and his can have no Faith Non habemus fidem Fides enim verbo Dei nititur L. 4. de verbo Dei c. 4. §. At si ita est And A. C. tells us p. 47. To know that Scripture is Divine and Infallible in every part is a Foundation so necessary as if it be doubtfully questioned all the Faith built upon Scripture falls to the ground And he gives the same reason for it p. 50. which Belarmine doth that we bee able to proove the Bookes of Scripture to bee the Word of God by some Authority that is absolutely Divine For if they bee warranted unto us by any Authority lesse then Divine then all things contained in them which have no greater assurance then the Scripture in which they are read are not Objects of Divine beliefe And that once granted will enforce us to yeeld That all the Articles of Christian Beliefe have no greater assurance then Humane or Morall Faith or Credulity can afford An Authority then simply Divine must make good the Scriptures Infallibility at least in the last Resolution of our Faith in that Poynt This Authority cannot bee any Testimony or Voyce of the * Ecclesiam spiritu afflatam esse certè credo Non ut veritatâ—…m authoritatemve Libris Canonicis triâ—…uat sed ut doc eat illos non alios esse Canonicos Nec fi aditum nobis praebet ad hujusmodi sacros Librâ—…s cognoscendos protinus ibi acquiescendum est sed ultra oportet progredi solidâ Dei veritate niti Quâ ex re intelligitur quid sibi volucrit Augustinus quam ait Evangelio non crederem nisi c. M. Canus L. 2. de Locis c. 8 fol. 34. b. Non docet fundatam esse Evangelii fidem in Ecclesiae Authoritate sed c. Ibid. Church alone For the Church consists of men subject to Error And no one of them fince the Apostles times hath beene assisted with so plentifull a measure of the Blessed Spirit as to secure him from being deceived And all the Parts being all liable to mistaking and sallible the VVhole cannot possibly bee Infallible in and of it self and priviledged from being deceived in some Things oâ—…
more wee finde that the thing it selfe doth answer our received opinion concerning it so that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before doth now much more prevaile when the very thing hath ministred farther Reason Here then againe in his Iudgement Tradition is the first Inducement but the farther Reason and Ground is the Scripture And Resolution of Faith ever settles upon the Farthest Reason it can not upon the First Inducement So that the State of this Question is firme and yet plaine enough to him that will not shut his eyes Now here after a long silence A. C. thrusts himselfe in againe and tels me That if I would A. C. p. 52. consider the Tradition of the Church not onely as it is the Tradition of a Company of Fallible men in which sense the Authority of it as himselfe confesses is but Humane and Fallible c. But as the Tradition of a Company of men assisted by Christ and his Holy Spirit in that sense I might easily finde it more then an Introduction indeed as much as would amount to an Infallible Motive Well I have considered The Tradition of the present Church both these wayes And I finde that A. C. confesses That in the first sense the Tradition of the Church is meere humane Authority and no more And therefore in this sense it may serve for an Introduction to this Beliefe but no more And in the second sense as it is not the Tradition of a Company of men onely but of men assisted by Christ and His Spirit In this second sense I cannot finde that the Tradition of the present Church is of Divine and Infallible Authority till A. C. can prove That this Company of men the Romane Prelates and their Clergie he meanes are so fully so cleerely so permanently assisted by Christ and his Spirit as may reach to Infallibility much lesse to a Divine Infallibility in this or any other Principle which they teach For every Assistance of Christ and the Blessed Spirit is not enough to make the Authority of any Company of men Divine and infallible but such and so great an Assistance onely as is purposely given to that effect Such an Assistance the Prophets under the Old Testament and the Apostles under the New had but neither the High-Priest with his Clergie in the Old nor any Company of Prelates or Priests in the New since the Apostles ever had it And therefore though at the entreaty of A. C. I have considered this very A. C. p. 52. well yet I cannot no not in this Assisted sense thinke the Tradition of the present Church Divine and Infallible or such Company of men to be worthy of Divine and infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Which I am sorrie A. C. should affirme so boldly as he doth What A. C. p. 52. That Company of men the Romane Bishop and his Clergie of Divine and Infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Good God! Whither will these men goe Surely they are wise in their generation but that makes them never a whit the more the Children of light a S. Luke 16. 8. S. Luke 16. And could they put this home upon the world as they are gone farre in it what might they not effect How might they and would they then Lord it over the Faith of Christendome contrary to b 1. S. Pet. 5. 3. S. Peter's Rule whose Successours certainly in this they are not But I pray if this Company of men be infallibly assisted whence is it that this very Company have erred so dangerously as they have not only in some other things but even in this Particular by equaling the Tradition of the present Church to the written Word of God Which is a Doctrine unknowne to the a S. Basil goes as farre for Traditions as any For he sayes Parem vim habent ad pictatem L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But first he speaks of Apostolicall Tradition not of the Tradition of the Present Church Secondly the Learned take exceptions to this Booke of S. Basil as corrupted BP Andr. Opusc. cont Peron p. 9. Thirdly S. Basil himself Ser. de Fide professes that he uses somtimes Agrapha sed ca solùm quae non sunt aliona à piâ secundum Scripturam sententiâ So he makes the Scripture their Touch-stone or tryall And therefore must of Necessity make Scripture superior in as much as that which is able to try another is of greater force and superiour Dignity in that use then the thing tried by it And Stapleton himselfe confesses Traditionem recentiorem posteriorem sicut particularem nullo modo cum Scripturâ vel cum Traditionibus priùs à se explicatis comparandam esse Stapleton Relect. Controv. 5. q. 5. A. 2. Primitive Church and which frets upon the very Foundation it selfe by justling with it So belike he that hath but halfe an indifferent eye may see this Assisted Company have erred and yet we must wink in obedience and think them Infallible But. A. C. would have me consider againe That A. C. p 52. it is as easie to take the Tradition of the present Church in the two fore-named senses as the present Scriptures printed and approved by men of this Age. For in the first sense The very Scriptures saith he considered as printed and approved by men of this Age can be no more then of Humane Credit But in the second sense as printed and approved by men assisted by God's Spirit for true Copies of that which was first written then we may give Infallible Credit to them Well I have considered this too And I can take the Printing and Approving the Copies of Holy-Writ in these two senses And I can and do make a difference betweene Copies printed and approved by meere morall men and men assisted by Gods Spirit And yet for the Printing onely a skilfull and an able morall man may doe better service to the Church then an illiterate man though assisted in other things by God's Spirit But when I have considered all this what then The Scripture being put in writing is a thing visibly existent and if any errour be in the Print 't is easily corrigible by b Ut §. 18. Nu. 4. Eâ—… S. Aug. L. 32. cont Faustum 〈◊〉 1â—… former Copies Tradition is not so easily observed nor so safely kept And howsoever to come home to that which A. C. inferres upon it namely That the A. C. p. 53. Tradition of the present Church may be accepted in these two senses And if this be all that he will inferre for his penne here is troubled and forsakes him whether by any checke of Conscience or no I know not I will and you see have granted it already without more adoe with this Caution That every Company of men assisted by Gods Spirit are not assisted to this height to be Infallible by Divine Authority For all this
Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. ad 1. Et Articulorum Fidei veritas non potest nobis esse evidens absolutè Bellar. L. 4. de Eccles. Mil. c. 3. §. 3. grants That in us which are the Subjects both of Faith and Knowledge and in regard of the Evidence given in unto us there is lesse Light lesse Evidence in the Principles of Faith then in the Principles of Knowledge upon which there can be no doubt But I think the Schoole will never grant That the Principles of Faith even this in Question have not sufficient Evidence And you ought not to do as you did without any Distinction or any Limitation deny a Praecognitum or Prime Principle in the Faith because it answers not in all things to the Prime Principles in Science in their Light and Evidence a thing in it self directly against Reason Well though I do none of this yet first I must tell you that A. C. here steps in againe and tels me That though a Praecognitum in Faith need not be so clearely knowne as a Praecognitum in Science yet there must be this proportion betweene them that whether it be in Science or in Faith the Praecognitum or thing supposed as knowne must be priùs cognitum first knowne and not need another thing pertaining to that Faith or Knowledge to be knowne before it But the Scripture saith he needs Tradition to goe before it and introduce the knowledge of it Therefore the Scripture is not to be supposed as a Praecognitum and a thing fore-knowne Tru'y I am sorrie to see in a man very learned such wilfull mistakes For A. C. cannot but perceive by that which I have clearely laid downe * §. 17. 18. Nu. 2. before That I intended not to speake precisely of a Praecognitum in this Argument But when I said Scriptures were Principles to be supposed I did not I could not intend They were priùs cognitae knowne before Tradition since I confesse every where That Tradition introduces the knowledge of them But my meaning is plaine That the Scriptures are and must be Principles supposed before you can dispute this Question †And my immediate Words in the Conference upon which the Iesuite asked How I knew Scripture to be Scripture were as the â—…esuite himselfe relates it apud A. C. p. 48. That the Scripture onely not any unwritten Tradition was the Foundation of our Faith Now the Scripture cannot be the onely Foundation of Faith if it containe not all things necessary to Salvation Which the Church of Rome denying against all Antiquity makes it now become a Question And in regard of this mâ—… Aâ—…ver was That the Scriptures are and must be Principles supposed and praecognitae before the handling of this Question Whether the Scriptures containe in them all things necessary to Salvation Before which Question it must necessarily be supposed and granted on both sides That the Scriptures are the Word of God For if they be not 't is instantly out of all Question that They cannot include all Necessaries to Salvation So 't is a Praecognitum not to Tradition as A C. would cunningly put upon the Cause but to the whole Question of the Scriptures sufficiency And yet if he could tie me to a Praecognitum in this very Question and proveable in a Superiour Science I thinke I shall go very neare to prove it in the next Paragraph and intreat A. C. to confesse it too And now having told A. C. this I must secondly follow him a little farther For I would faine make it appeare as plainly as in such a difficulty it can be made what wrong he doth Truth and himself in this Case And it is the common fault of them all For when the Protestants answer to this Argument which as I have shew'd can properly have no place in the Question betweene us about Tradition †Hook L. 3 §. 8. they which grant this as a Praecognitum a thing foreknown as also I do were neither ignorant nor forgetfull That things presupposed as already known in a Science are of two sorts For either they are plaine and fully manifest in their owne Light or they are proved and granted already some former knowledge having made them Evident This Principle then The Scriptures are the Oracles of God we cannot say is cleare and fully manifest to all men simply and in self-Light for the Reasons before given Yet we say after Tradition hath beene our Introduction the Soule that hath but ordinary Grace added to Reason may discerne Light sufficient to resolve our Faith that the Sun is there This Principle then being not absolutely and simply evident in it selfe is presumed to be taught us otherwise And if otherwise then it must be taught in and by some superiour Science to which Theologie is subordinate Now men may be apt to think out of Reverence That Divinity can have no Science above it But your owne Schoole teaches me that it hath * Hoc modo sacra Doctrina est Scientia quia â—…dit ex Principiis notis Lumine superioris Scientia quae scilicet est Scientia Dei Beatorum Tho. p. 1. q. 1. a. 2. And what sayes A. C. now to this of Aquinas Is it not cleare in him that this Principle The Scriptures are the Word of God of Divine and most Infallible Credit is a Praecognitum in the knowledge of Divinity and proveable in a superiour Science namely the Knowledge of God and the Blessed in Heaven Yes so cleare that as I told you he would A. C. confesses it p. 51. But he adds That because no man ordinarily sees this Proofe therefore we must go either to Christ who saw it clearely Or to the Apostles to whom it was clearely revealed or to them wholy Succession received it from the Prime Secrs So now because Christ is ascended and the Apostles gone into the number of the Blessed and made in a higher Degree partakers of their knowledge therefore we must now onely goe unto then Successours and borrow light from the Tradition of the present Church For that we must do And 't is so farre well But that we must relie upon this Tradition as Divine and Infallible and able to breed in us Divine and Insallible Faith as A. C. adds p. 51 52. is a Proposition which in the times of the Primitive Church would have beene accounted very dangerous as indeed it is For I would fame know why leaning too much upon Tradition may not mislead Christians as well as it diâ—… the Iewes But they saith S. Hilarie Traditionis savore Legis praecepta transgressi sunt Can. 14. in S. Mat. Yet to this height are They of Rome now growne That the Traditions of the present Church are infallible And by out-fâ—…cing the Truth lead many after them And as it is Jer. 5. 31. The Prophets prophesie untruths anâ—… the Priests receive gifts and my people delight therein what will become of this in the end The sacred Doctrine
exceeding corrupt both in Manners and Doctrine and so a dishonour to the Name is yet a True Church in the verity of Essence as a Church is a Company of men which professe the Faith of Christ and are Baptized into His Name But yet it is not therefore a Right Church either in Doctrine or Manners It may be you meant cunningly to slip in this word Right that I might at unwares grant it Orthodox But I was not so to be caught For I know well that Orthodox Christians are keepers of integrity and followers of right things so a Integritatis custodes recta sectantes De vera Relig. c. 5. S Augustine of which the Church of Rome at this day is neither In this sense then no Right that is no Orthodox Church at Rome And yet no Newes it is that I granted the Romane Church to be a True Church For so much very learned Protestants b Hooker l. 3. §. 1. Iunius l. de Ec. c. 17. Falluntur qui Ecclesiam negant quiâ—… Papatus in ea est Reynold Thes. 5. Negat tantum esse Catholicam vel sanuÌ„â—…jus membrum Nay the very Separatists grant it Fr. Johnson in his Treatise called A Christian Plea Printed 1617. p. 123. c. have acknowledged before me and the Truth cannot deny it For that Church which receives the Scripture as a Rule of Faith though but as a partiall and imperfect Rule and both the Sacraments as Instrumentall Causes and Seales of Grace though they adde more and misuse these yet cannot but be a True Church in essence How it is in Manners and Doctrine I would you would looke to it with a single eye c Si tamen bono ingenio Pictas Pax quaeda mentis accedat sine quá de sanctis rebus nihil prorsus intelligi potest S. Aug. de Vâ—… Cred. c. 18. For if Piety and a Peaceable mind be not joyned to a good understanding nothing can be knowne in these great things Here AC tells us That the Iesuite doth not say that the Lady asked this Question in this or any other precise forme A. C. p. 53. of words But saith the Iesuite is sure her desire was to know of me whether I would grant the Romane Church to be the right Church And how was the Iesuite sure the Lady desired to heare this from me Why A. C. tells us that too For he addes That the Iesuite had particularly spoken with her before A. C. p. 54. and wished her to insist upon that Poynt Where you may see and 't is fit the Clergie of England should consider with what cunning Adversaries they have to deale who can finde a way to d And after A. C. saith againe p. 54. that the Lady did not aske the Question as if she meant to be satisfied with hearing what I said So belike they take Caâ—…tion before hand for that too That what ever we say unlesse we grant what they would have their Proâ—…elytes shall not be satisfied wiâ—…hit prepare their Disciples and instruct them before hand upon what Poynts to insist that so they may with more ease slide that into their hearts and consciences which should never come there And this once known I hope they will the better provide against it But A. C. goes on and tells us That certainly A. C. p. 54. by my Answer the Ladies desire must needs be to beare from me not whether the Church of Rome were a right Church c. but whether I would grant that there is but one holy Catholike Church and whether the Romane Church that is not only that which is in the City or Diocesse of Rome but all that agreed with it be not it About A Church and The Church I have said enough †§. 20. N. 1. before and shall not repeat Nor is there any need I should For A. C. would have it The Church The One Holy Catholike Church But this cannot be granted take the Roman Church in what sense they please in City or Diocesse or all that agree with it Yet howsoever before I leave this I must acquaint the Reader with a perfect Iesuitisme In all the Primitive Times of the Church a Man or a Family or a Nationall Church were accounted Right and Orthodox as they agreed w th the Catholike Church But the Catholike was never then measured or judged by Man Family or Nation But now in the Iesuites new schole The One Holy * And though Stapleton to magnifie the Church of Rome is pâ—…eased to say Apud veteres pro codem habit a fuit Ecclesia Romana Ecclesia Catholica yet he is â—…o modest as to give this Reason of it Quia ejus Communio erat evident èr certissimè cum tota Catholicá Relect. Con. 1. q. 5. A. 3. Lo The Comâ—…union of the Romane was then with the Catholike Church not of the Catholike with iâ—… Anâ—… S. Cyprian imployed his Legates Caldonius and Fortunatus not to bring the Catholike Church o the Communion of Rome buâ—… Rome to the Catholike Church Elaborarâ—…nt ut ad Cath licae Ecclesiae unitatâ—…m 〈◊〉 Corporis membra 〈◊〉 c Now the Memâ—…ers of this Râ—… and tâ—…rne Body were they of Rome then in an open Schisme betweene Cornâ—…ius and Novatian S. Cypr. L. 2. Epist. 10. Catholike Church must bee measured by that which is in the City or Diocesse of Rome or of them which agreed with it and not Rome by the Catholike For so A. C. sayes expresly The Laâ—…y would know of me not whether that were the Catholike Church to which Rome agreed but whether that were not the Holy Catholike Church which agreed with Rome So upon the matter belike the Christian Faith was committed to the Custody of the Romane not of the Catholike Church And a man cannot agree with the Catholike Church of Christ in this new Doctrine of A. C. unlessâ—… he agree with the Church of Rome but if he agree with that all 's safe and he is as Orthodox as he need be But A. C. is yet troubled about the forme of the Ladies Question And he will not have it That She desired to know whether I would grant the Romane Church to be the Right Church Though these be her words according to the Iesuites owne setting downe but he thinkes the Question was Whether the Church of Rome was not the Right Church not Be not but was not Was not That is was not once or in time past the Right A. C. p. 54. Church before Luther and others made a breach from it Why truly A. C. needed not have troubled himselfe halfe so much about this For let him take his Choise It shall be all one to me whether the Question were asked by Be or by Was For the Church of Rome neither is nor was the Right Church as the Lady desired to heare A Particular Church it is and was and in some times right and in some times wrong
and then in some things right and in some things wrong But The Right Church or The Holy Catholike Church it never was nor ever can be And therefore was not such before Luther and Others either left it or were thrust from it A Particular Church it was But then A. C. is not distinct enough here neither For the Church of Rome both was and was not a Right or Orthodox Church before Luther made a Breach from it For the word Ante Before may looke upon Rome and that Church a great way off or long before and then in the Prime times of it it was a most Right and Orthodox Church But it may looke also nearer home and upon the immediate times before Luther or some Ages before that And then in those times * Câ—… infiniti Abusus Schismata quoque Haereses per totum nunc Christianum Orbem invalescant Ecclesiam Dei legitimâ indigere Reformatione nemini non apertum erit Pet. de Aliaco Card. Cameracensis L. de Refor Ecclesiae And if Schismeâ—… and Heresies did then invade the whole Christian world let A. C. consider how Rome scaped free And I thinke Cameracensis was in this Propheticall For sixty yeares and more before Luther was borne and so before the great troubles which have since fallen upon all Christendome he used these words in the Booke which himselfe delivered up in the Councell of Constance Nisi celeriter fiat Reformatio aâ—…deo dicere quod licet magna sint quae videmus tamen in brevi incomparabiliter majora videbimus Et post ista tonitrua tam horrenda majora alia audienâ—…s c. Cam. l. de Refor Eccle. And it will hardly sinke into any mans judgement that so great a man as Pet. de Aliaco was in that Church should speake thus if he did not see some errors in the Doctrine of that Church as well as in Manners Nay Cassander though he lived and dyed in the Communion of the Church of Rome yet found fault with some of her Doctrines Consulta Artic. 21. 22. And Pope Iulius the third Professed at Bononia in Sacramentorum Ecclesiae ministerium innumerabiles Abusus irrepsissâ—… Espenâ—…us in Tit. 1. and yet he was one of the Bishops nay the chiefe Legat in the Councell of Trent Rome was a Corrupt and a tainted Church farre from being Right And yet both these times Before Luther made his Breach So here A. C. should have beene more distinct For the word Before includes the whole time before Luther in part of which time that Church of Rome was Right and in other part whereof it was wrong But A. C. addes yet That I suspected the Lady would inferre if once that Church were Right what hindred it now to be Since that did not depart A. C. p. 54. from the Protestant Church but the Protestant Church from it Truly I neither suspected the Inference would be made nor feare it when it is made For 't is no Newes that any Particular Church Romane as well as another may once have beene Right and afterwards wrong and in farre worse case And so it vvas in Rome after the enemy had sowed tares among the wheat †S. Mat. 13. 25. S Mat. 13 But whether these Tares were sovven vvhile their Bishops slept or vvhether * For A. C. knowes well what strange Doctrines are charged upon some Popes And all Bellarmines labour though great and full of art is not able to wash them cleane Bellarm. L. 4. dâ—… Rom. Pont. c. 8. c. Et Papas quosdam graves errores seminâsse in Ecclesia Christi luâ—…arius est Et probâ—…ur à laco Almain Opusc. de Autho. Ecclesiae c. 10. And Cassander speakes it out more plaâ—…ly Vâ—…inam Illi He speaks of the Biâ—…hops and Rectors in the Romane Church à quâ—…bus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…sset non Ipsi Superstâ—…num Auctores â—…sent â—…el 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Animis homâ—…um simpliâ—…um aliquando 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Coâ—…sulta Art 21. 〈◊〉 finem They themselves did not helpe to sovv them is too large a Disquisition for this Place So though it were once Right yet the Tares which grow thick in it are the Cause why 't is not so now And then though that Church did not depart from the Protestants Church yet if it gave great and just Cause for the Protestant Church to depart from the Errours of it while it in some Particulars departed from the Truth of Christ it comes all to one for this Particular That the Romane Church which was once right is now become wrong by embracing Superstition and Errour F. Farther he confessed That Protestants had made a Rent and Division from it B. I confesse I could here be heartily a Grave omninò crimen sed defensionem longinquam non requirit satis est enim negare sicâ—…t pro Ecclesiâ olim S. Aug. de Util. Cred. c. 5. angry but § 21 that I have resolved in handling matters of Religion to leave all gall out of my Ink For I never granted that the Romane Church either is or was the right Church 'T is too true indeed that there is a miserable Rent in the Church and I make no Question but the best men doe most bemoane it b Hanc quae respectu hominum Ecclesia dicitur observare 〈◊〉 Communionem colere debemus Calv. Inst. 4. c. 1 nor is he a Christian that would not have Vnity might he have it with Truth But I never said nor thought §. 7. that the Protestants made this Rent The Cause of the Schisme is yours for you thrust us from you because we called for Truth and Redresse of Abuses For a c Rectè scias nos secisse recedendo à vobis c. Lucif L. de Non conveniendo cum Haereticis He speakes of the Arrians and I shall not compare you with them nor give any Offence that way I shall onely draw the generall argument from it thus If the Orthodoxe did well in departing from the Arrians then the Schisme was to be imputed to the Arrians although the Orthodoxe did depart from them Otherwise if the Orthodoxe had beene guilty of the Schisme he could not have said Rectè scias nos fecisse recedendo For it cannot be that a man should do well in making a Schisme There may be therefore a necessary separation which yet incurres not the blame of Schisme And that is when Doctrines are taught contrary to the Catholike Faith Schisme must needs be theirs whose the Cause of it is The Woe runs full out of the mouth of * S. Mat. 18. 7. Christ ever against him that gives the Offence not against him that takes it ever But you have by this carriage given me just cause never to treat with you or your like but before a Iudge or a Iurie But here A. C. tels me I had no cause to be angry either with the Jesuite or my selfe Not with the Iesuite A. C. p. 55 56. for he
suum praeferat tanquam ipse solus Spiritum Dei habeat S. Bern. Serm. 3. ae Resurr But Saint Bernard not so For these last words of all the Christian Churches in the world are not in Saint Bernard And whether Toti Congregationi implie more in that Place then a Particular Church is not very manifest Nay I thinke 't is plaine that hee speakes both of and to that particular Congregation to which he was then preaching And I believe A. C. will not easily finde where tota Congregatio the whole Congregation is used in S. Bernard or any other of the Fathers for the whole Catholike Church of Christ. And howsoever the meaning of S. Bernard be 't is one thing for a private man Iudicium suum praeferre to preferre and so follow his private Iudgement before the Whole Congregation which is indeed Lepra proprii Consilii as S. Bernard there cals it the proud Leprosie of the Private Spirit And quite another thing for an Intelligent man and in some things unsatisfied modestly to propose his doubts even to the Catholike Church And much more may a whole Nationall Church nay the whole Body of the Protestants doe it And for S Augustine the Place alledged out of him is a knowne Place And he speakes indeed of the Whole Catholike Church And he * Similiter etiam siquid horum tota per Orbem frequentat Ecclesia Nam hinc quin it a faciendum fit disput are Insolentissimae Insaniae est S. Aug. Epist. 118. c. 5. sayes and hee sayes it truly 'T is a part of most insolent madnesse for any Man to dispute whether that bee to bee done which is usually done in and thorough the whole Catholike Church of Christ. Where first here 's not a word of the Romane Church but of that which is tota per Orbem all over the World Catholike which Rome never yet was Secondly A. C. applies this to A. C. p. 56. the Romane Faith whereas S. Augustine speakes there expresly of the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church and a Quaeris quid per quintam Feriam ultime hebdom adis Quadragesimae fiers debet An offerendum sit manè c. S. Aug. Ibid. particularly about the Manner of Offering upon Maundy-Thursday whether it be in the Morning or after Supper or both Thirdly 't is manifest by the words themselves that S. Augustine speakes of no Matter of Faith there Romane nor Catholike For Frequentat and b And so Bellarmine most expresly But then he adds Universam Ecclesiam non posse errare non solùm in Credendo sed nec in Operando praesertim in Ritu Cultu Divino L 4. de Verb. Dei c. 9. §. 4 And if this be true what is it to Rome Faciendum are for Things done and to be done not for Things believed or to be believed So here 's not One Word for the Romane Faith in either of these Places And after this I hope you will the lesse wonder at A. C s. Boldnesse Lastly a right sober man may without the least Touch of Insolency or Madnesse dispute a Businesse of Religion with the Romane either Church or Prelate As all men know c Euseb. L. 5. Hist. Eccl. c. 26 Et Socrat. L. 5. Hist. c. 22. Irenaeus did with Victor so it bee with Modesty and for the finding out or Confirming of Truth free from Vanity and purposed Opposition against even a Particular Church But in any other way to dispute the Whole Catholike Church is just that which S Augustine cals it Insolent Madnesse But now were it so that the Church of Rome were Orthedoxe in all things yet the Faith by the Jesuite's leave is not simply to be called the Romane but the Christian and the Catholike Faith And yet A. C. will not understand A. C. p. 56. this but Roman and Catholike whether Church or Faith must be one and the same with him and therefore inferres That there can be no just Cause to make a Schisme or Division from the whole Church For the whole Church cannot universally erre in Doctrine of Faith That the whole Church cannot universally erre in the Doctrine of Faith is most true and 't is granted by diverse †Quaestio est An Ecclesia totalis toteliter 〈◊〉 1. pro omnibus simul Electis dum sunt Membra Mâ—…tis Ecclesiae possint errare vel in totâ fiâ—…e vel in gravi aliquo fidei puncto Et respondemus simplicitèr 〈◊〉 esse impossibile Keckerm Syst. Theol. p. 387 Edit Hannoviae An. 1602. Calvinus caeteri Haeretici concedunt Ecclesiam absolutè non posse deficcre Sed dicunt intelligi debere de Ecclesia Inviâ—… Bellarm. L. 3. de Eccles Milit. c. 13. §. 1. But this Exception of Bellarmine's that the Protestants whom out of his Liberality he cals Hereticks speake of the Inâ—…isible Church is meerely frivolous For the Church of the Elect is in the Church of them that are Called and the Invisible Church in the Visible Therefore if the whole Church of the Elect cannot erre in Fundamentals the whole Visible Church in which the same Elect are cannot erre Now that the Invisible Church of the Elect is in the Visible is manifest out of S. Aug. Ipsa est Ecclesia quae intra sagenam Dominicam cum malis piscibus natat S. Aug. Epist. 48. Grana sunt inter illam palcam quando Area cum videretur tota palea putabatur S. Aug. in Psal. 121. And this is proved at large by Hooker L. 3. Eccles. Pol. §. 1. For els the Elect or Invisible Church is tyed to no duty of Christianity For all such Duties are required of the Church as 't is Visible and performed in the Church as 't is Visible And D r. Field speakes as plainly we hold it impossible that the Church should ever by Apostasie and Misbeliefe wholly depart from God c. So we hold that it never fals into Heresie So that Bellarmine is as much to be blamed for idle and needlesse busying himselfe to prove That the Visible Church never fals into Heresie which we most willingly grant Field L. 4. de Eccles. c. 2. Taking the Church for all the Beleevers now living and in things necessary to be knowne expresly Ibid. And Bellarmine himself adds Calvinus dicit hanc Propositionem Ecclesia non potest errare veram esse si intelligatur cum duplici restrictione Prima est si non proponat Dogmata extra Scripturam c. And indeed Calvin doth say so L. 4 Instit. c. 8. §. 13. Secunda est si intelligatur de solâ Ecclesiâ Universali non autem de Representativâ Bellar. L. 3. de Eccl. Milit c. 14. §. 2. And I hope it is as good and a better Restriction in Calvin To say the Catholike Church cannot erre if it keepe to the Scripture then for Bellarmine to say The particular Church of Rome cannot erre because of the Pope's residing there or the Pope cannot
say it then I do say it now and most true it is That it was ill done of those who e're they were that first made the separation But then A. C must not understand me of Actuall only but of Causall separation For as I said * §. 21. Nu. 1. before the Schisme is theirs whose the Cause of it is And he makes the Separation that gives the first just Cause of it not he that makes an Actuall Separation upon a just Cause preceding And this is so evident a Truth that A C. cannot deny it for he sayes 't is most true Neither can he deny it in this A. C. p. 56. sense in which I have expressed it For his very Assertion against us though false is in these Termes That we gave the first Cause Therefore he must meane it of Causall not of Actuall Separation only But then A. C. goes on and tells us That after this Breach was made yet the Church of Rome was so kinde A. C. p. 57. and carefull to seeke the Protestants that She invited them publikely with safe conduct to Rome to a Generall Councell freely to speak what they could for themselves Indeed I thinke the Church of Rome did carefully seeke the Protestants But I doubt it was to bring them within their Net And she invited them to Rome A very safe place if you marke it for them to come to Iust as the Lion in the a Olim quod vulpes aegroto cauta Leoni Respondit referam Quia me vestigia terrent Omnia te adversum spectantia nulla retrorsùm Apologue invited the Fox to his own Den. Horat. L. 1. Ep. 1. ex Aesop. Yea but there was safe Conduct offered too Yes Conduct perhaps but not safe or safe perhaps for going thither but none for coÌ„ming thence Vestigia nulla retrorsùm Yea but it should have been to a Generall Councell Perhaps so But was the Conduct safe that was given for comming to a Councell which they cal Generall to some others before them No sure b Though I cannot justifie all which these two men said yet safe Conduct being given that Publike Faith ought not to have beene violated Iohn Hus and Jerome of Prage burnt for all their safe conduct And so long as c Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici debere Haereticis servari fidem sive salvus conductus concedatur Iure communi sive speciali Bec. Dis. Theol. de Fide Haereticis servandâ c. 12. §. 5. But for al this Brag of Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici Becanus shuffles pitifully to defend the Councell of Constance For thus he argues Fides non est violata Hussio Non à Patribus Illi enim fidem non dederunt Non ab Imperatore Sigismundo Ille enim dedit fidem sed non violavit Ibid. §. 7. But all men know that the Emperor was used by the Fathers at Constance to bring Husse thither Sigismundus Hussum Constantiam vocat missis Literis publicâ fide cavet mense Octob. Ann. 1414. c. Edit in 160. Et etiamsi Primò graviter tulit Hussi in carcerationem tamen cum dicerent Fidem Haereticis non esse servandam non modo remisit Offensionem sed primus accrbè in eum pronunciav it Ibid. This is a mockery And Becanus his Argument is easily returned upon himselfe For if the Fathers did it in cunning that the Emperor should give safe conduct which themselves meant not to keepe then they broke faith And if the Emperor knew they would not keepe it then he himselfe broke faith in giving a safe conduct which he knew to be invalid And as easie it is to answer what Becanus addes to save that Councels Act could I stay upon it Fides Haereticis data servanda non est sicut nec Tyrannis Piratis câ—…teris publicis praedonibus c. Simanca Jnstit Tit. 46. §. 51. And although Becanus in the place above cited §. 13. confidently denyes that the Fathers at Constance decreed No faith to be kept with Hereticks and cites the words of the Councell Sess. 19. yet there the very words themselves have it thus Posse Concilium cos punire c. etiamsi de salvo conductu consisi ad locum venâ—…rint Judicii c. And much more plainly Simanca Just. Tit. 46. §. 52. Iureigitur Haeretici quidam gravissimo Concilii Constantiensis Judicio legitimâ flammâ concremati sunt quamvis promiâ—…sa illis securitas fuisset So they are not onely Protestants which charge the Councell of Constance with this Nor can Becanus say as â—…e doth Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici sidem Hareticis servandam esse For Simanca denyes it And hee quotes others for it which A. C. would be loth should not be accounted Catholikes But how faithfully Simanca sayes the one or Becanus the other let them take it betweene them and the Reader be judge In the meane time the very Title of the Canon of the Councell of Constance Sess. 19. is this Quodnon obstantibus salvis conductibus Jmperatoris Regum c. possit per Indicem competentem de Haeretica pâ—…te inquiri the IeIesuites write and maintaine That Faith given is not to be kept with Heretickes And the Church of Rome leaves this lewd Doctrine uncensured as it hath hitherto done and no exception put in of force and violence A. C shall pardon us that we come not to Rome nor within the reach of Romane Power what freedome of Speech soever bee promised us For to what end Freedome of Speech on their part d For so much A. C. confesses p. 45. For if they should give way to the altering of one then why not of another and another and so of al And the Trent Fathers in a great point of Doctrine being amazed and not knowing what to answer to a Bishop of their owne yet were resolved not to part with their common error Certum tamen er at Doctrinam eam non probare sed quam antea didicissent firmitèr tenere c. Hist. Con. Trid. L. 2. p. 277. Edit Leyd 1612. since they are resolved to alter nothing And to what end Freedome of speech on our part if after speech hath beene free life shall not And yet for all this A. C. makes no doubt but that the Romane Church is so farre from being Cause of the continuance A. C. p. 57. of the Schisme or hinderance of the Re-union that it would yet give a free hearing with most ample safe Conduct if any hope might be given that the Protestants would sincerely seeke nothing but Truth and Peace Truly A. C. is very Resolute for the Romane Church yet how far he may undertake for it I cannot tell But for my part I am of the same Opinion for the continuing of the Schisme that I was for the making of it That is that it is ill very ill done of those whoever they be Papists or Protestants
that give just Cause to continue a Separation But for free-hearings or safe Conducts I have said enough till that Church doe not only say bnt doe otherwise And as for Truth and Peace they are in every mans mouth with you and with us But lay they but halfe so close to the hearts of men as they are common on their tongues it would soone be better with Christendome then at this day it is or is like to be And for the Protestants in generall I hope they seeke both Truth and Peace sincerely The Church of England I am sure doth and hath taught me to †Beseeching God to inspire continually the Vniversall Church with the Spirit of truth unity and concord c. In the Prayer for the Militant Church And in the third Collect on Good-friday pray for both as I most heartily doe But what Rome doth in this if the world will not see I will not Censure And for that which A. C. addes That such a free hearing is more then ever the English Catholikes could obtaine A. C. p. 57. though they have often offered and desired it and that but under the Princes word And that no Answer hath nor no good Answer can be given And he cites Campian for it How farre or how often this hath beene asked by the English Rommists I cannot tell nor what Answer hath beene given them But surely Campian was too bold and so is A. C. too to say * Campian praefat Rationsbut praefixà Honestum responsum nullum no good Answer can be given For this I thinke is a very good Answer That the Kings and the Church of England had no Reason to admit of a Publike Dispute with the English Romish Clergie till they shall be able to shew it under the Seale or Powers of Rome That that Church will submit to a Third who may be an Indifferent Iudge betweene us and them or to such a Generall Councell as is after * §. 26. Nu. 1. mentioned And this is an Honest and I thinke a full Answer And without this all Disputation must end in Clamour And therefore the more publike the worse Because as the Clamour is the greater so perhaps will be the Schisme too F. Moreover he said he would ingenuously acknowledge That the Corruption of Manners in the Romish Church was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departing from it B. I would I could say you did as ingenuously repeat § 22 as I did Confesse For I never said That Corruption of Manners was or was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departure How could I say this since I did not grant that they did Depart otherwise then is * §. 21. N. 6. before expressed There is difference between Departure and causelâ—…sse Thrusting from you For out of the Church is not in your Power God bee thanked to thrust us Think on that And so much I said expresly then That which I did ingenuously confesse was this That Corruption in Manners only is no sufficient Cause to make a Separation in the Church a Modò ea qùae ad CathedraÌ„ pertinent recta praecipiant S. Hier. Ep. 236. Nor is it It is a Truth agreed on by the Fathers and received by Divines of all sorts save by the Cathari to whom the Donatist and the Anabaptist after accorded And against whom b L. 4. Instit. c. 1. §. 13. c. Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde semper moribus seâ—…arantur c. Corporalem separationem in â—…tore maris hoc est in fine saculi expectant Calvin disputes it strongly And S. Augustine is plaine There are bad fish in the Net of the Lord from which there must be ever a Separation in heart and in manners but a corporali 〈◊〉 must be expected at the Sea shore that is the end of the world And the best fish that are must not teare and breake the Net because the bad are with them And this is as ingenuously Confessed for you as by me For if Corruption in Manners were a just Cause of Actuall Separation of one Church from another in that Catholike Body of Christ the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any since as * Uix ullum peccatum solâ—… Haeresi exceptá câ—…gitari potest quo illa Sedes â—…urpiter maculata non fucrit maxime ab An 8â—…0 Relect Cont. 1. q. 5. Art 3. Stapleton grants there is scarce any sinne that can be thought by man Heresie only excepted with which that Sea hath not been fouly stained especially from eight hundred yeares after Christ. And he need not except Haeresie into which a Biel in Can. Miss Lect. 23. Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall And †Stel. in S. Luc. c 22 Almain in 3. Sent. d. 24. q. 1 fine Multae sunt Decretales haereticae c. And so they erred as Popes Stella and Almaine gâ—…ant it freely that some of them did fall and so ceased to be Heads of the Church and left Christ God be thanked at that time of his Vicars defection to looke to his Cure himselfe F. But saith he beside Corruption of Manners there were also Errors in Doctrine B. This I spake indeed And can you prove that § 23 I spake not true in this But I added though here againe you are pleased to omit it That some of the errors of the Roman Church were dangerous to salvation For it is not every light Eâ—…ror in Disputable Doctrine and Points of curious Speculation that can bee a just Cause of Separation in that Admirable Body of Christ which is his * Eph. 1. 23. Church or of one Member of it from another For hee gave his Naturall Body to bee rent and torne upon the Crosse that his Mysticall Body might be One. And S. †S. Aug. Ep. 50. Et iterum Colum ba non sunt qui EcclesiaÌ„ dissipant Accipitres sunt Milvi sunt Non laniat Columba c. S. Aug. tract 5. in S. Iohn Augustine inferres upon it That â—…e is no way partaker of Divine Charity that is an enemie to this Vnity Now what Errors in Doctrine may give just Cause of Separation in this Body or the Parts of it one from another were it never so easie to determine as I thinke it is most difficult I would not venture to set it downe in particular least in these times of Discord I might bee thought to open a Doore for Schisme which surely I will never doe unlesse it be to let it out But that there are Errors in Doctrine and some of them such as most manifestly endanger salvation in the Church of Rome is evident to them that will not shut their Eyes The proofe whereof runnes through the Particular Points that are betweene us and so is too long for this Discourse Now here A. C. would faine have a Reason given him Why I did endeavour A. C. p. 55. to shew what Cause
the Protestants had to make that Rent or Division if I did not grant that they made it Why truly in this reasonable demand I will satisfie him I did it partly because I had granted in the generall that Corruption in Manners was no sufficient cause of Separation of one Particular Church from another and therefore it lay upon me at least to Name in generall what was And partly because he and his Partie will needes have it so that we did make the Separation And therefore though I did not grant it yet amisse I thought it could not be to Declare by way of Supposition that if the Protestants did at first Separate from the Church of Rome they had reason so to doe For A. C. himselfe confesses A. C. p. 56. That Error in Doctrine of the Faith is a just Cause of Separation so just as that no Cause is just but that Now had I leasure to descend into Particulars or will to make the Rent in the Church wider 't is no hard matter to proove that the Church of Rome hath erred in the Doctrine of Faith and dangerously too And I doubt I shall afterwards descend to Particulars A. C. his Importunity forcing me to it F. Which when the Generall Church would not Reforme it was lawfull for Particular Churches to Reforme themselves B. Is it then such a strange thing that a Particular § 24 Church may reforme it selfe if the Generall will not I had thought and do so still That in Point of Reformation of either Manners or Doctrine it is lawfull for the Church sinoe Christ to doe as the Church before Christ did and might do The Church before Christ consisted of Iewes and Proselytes This Church came to have a Separation upon a most ungodly Policie of a 3. Reg. 12. 27. Ieroboam's so that it never peeced together againe To a Common Councell to reforme all they would not come Was it not lawfull for Iudah to reforme her selfe when Israel would not joyne Sure it was or els the Prophet deceives me that sayes expresly b Hos. 4. 15. Though Israel transgresse yet let not Iudah sinne And S. Hierome c Super Haereticis prona intelligentia est S. Hier Ibid. expounds it of this very particular sinne of Heresie and Errour in Religion Nor can you say that d Non tamen cessavit Deus populum hunc arguere per Prophetas Nam ibi extiter unt Magni illi insignes Prophetae Elias Elizaeus c. S. Aug. L. 17. de Civit. Dei c. 22. Multi religiosè intra se Dei cultum habebant c. De quo numero eorumvè Posteris septem illa miâ—…ia fuisse statuo qui in Persecutione sub Achabo Deum sibi ab Idololatriâ immunes reservârunt nec genua ante Baal flexerunt Fran. Monceius L. 1. de Vit. Aureo c. 12. Israel from the time of the Separation was not a Church for there were true Prophets in it e 3. Reg. 17. sub Achabo Elias and f 4. Reg. 3. sub Iehoram filio Achabi Elizaeus and others and g 3. Reg. 19. 18. thousands that had not bowed knees to Baal And there was salvation for these which cannot be in the Ordinary way where there is no Church And God threatens h Hos. 9. 17. to cast them away to wander among the Nations and be no Congregation no Church therefore he had not yet cast them away in Non Ecclesiam into No-Church And they are expresly called the People of the Lord in i 4. Reg. 9. 6. Iehu's time and so continued long after Nor can you plead that Iudah is your part and the Ten Tribes ours as some of you doe for if that bee true you must grant that the Multitude and greater number is ours And where then is Multitude your numerous Note of the Church For the Ten Tribes were more then the two But you cannot plead it For certainly if any Calves be set up they are in Dan and in Bethel They are not ours Besides to reforme what is amisse in Doctrine or Manners is as lawfull for a Particular Church as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholike in either And your Question Quo Judice lies alike against both And yet I thinke it may be proved that the Church of Rome and that as a Particular Church did promulgate an Orthodoxe Truth which was not then Catholikely admitted in the Church namely The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne If she erred in this Fact confesse her Errour if she erred not why may not another Particular Church doe as shee did A learned Schoole-man of yours saith she may †Non oportuit ad hac cos vocare quum Authoritas fuerit publicandi apud siaâ—… Romanam pracipuè cùm unicuique ctiam particulari Ecclesiaeliceat id quod Catholicum est promulgare Alb. Mag. in 1. Dist. 11. A. 9. The Church of Rome needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this Truth fince the Authority of publishing it was in the Church of Rome especially since it is lawfull for every particular Church to promulgate that which is Catholike Nor can you say he m anes Catholike as fore determined by the Church in generall for so this Point when Rome added Filioque to the Creed of a Generall Councell was not And how the Grecians were used in the after-Councell such as it was of Florence is not to trouble this Dispute But Catholike stands there for that which is so in the nature of it and Fundamentally Nor can you justly say That the Church of Rome did or might do this by the Pope's Authority over the Church For suppose he have that and that his Sentence be Infallible I say suppose both but I give neither yet neither his Authority nor his Infallibility can belong unto him as the particular Bishop of that Sea but as the * Non errare convenit Papa â—…t est Caput Bell. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. Ministeriall Head of the whole Church And you are all so Iodged in this that †L. 2. de Christo. c. 21. §. Quando autem So you cannot finde Record of your own Truths which are farre more likely to be kept but when Errours are crept in we must bee bound to tell the place and the time and I know not what of their Beginnings or els they are not Errours As if some Errours might not want a Record as well as some Truth Bellarmine professes he can neither tell the yeare when nor the Pope under whom this Addition was made A Particular Church then if you judge it by the Schoole of Rome or the Practice of Rome may publish any thing that is Catholike where the whole Church is silent and may therefore Reforme any thing that is not Catholike where the whole Church is negligent or will not But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome as a
Councell which shall be lawfully called and fairely and freely held with indifferency to all parties And that must judge the Difference according to Scripture which must be their Rule as well as Private Mens And here after some lowd Cry against the Pride and Insolent madnesse of the Protâ—…stants A. C. addes That A. C. p. 58. the Church of Rome is the Principall and Mother Church And that therefore though it be against common equity that Subjects and Children should be Accusers Witnesses Iudges and Executioners against their Prince and Mother in any case yet it is not absurd that in some Cases the Prince or Mother may Accuse Witnesse Iudge and if need be execute Iustice against unjust and rebellious Subjects or evill Children How farre forth Rome is a Prince over the whole Church or a Mother of it will come to be shewed at after In the meane time though I cannot grant her to be either yet let 's suppose her to be both that A. C s. Argument may have all the strength it can have Nor shall it force me as plausible as it seemes to weaken the just power of Princes over their Subjects or of Mothers over their Children to avoid the shocke of this Argument For though A. C. may tell us 't is not absurd in some Cases yet I would faine have him name any one Moderate Prince that ever thought it just or tooke it upon him to be Accuser and VVitnesse and Iudge in any Cause of moment against his Subjects but that the Law had Libertie to Iudge betweene them For the great Philosopher tells us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arist. Eto c. 6. That the Chiefe Magistrate is Custos juris the Guardian and keeper of the Law and if of the Law then both of that equity and equality which is due unto them that are under him And even Tiberius himselfe in the Cause of Silanus when Dolabella would have flatter'd him into more power then in wisdome he thought fit then to take to himselfe he put him off thus No †Minui Jura quoties gliscat Potestas nec utendum Imperio ubi Legibus agi possit Tacit. L. 3 Annal. the Lawes grow lesse where such Power enlarges Nor is absolute Power to be used where there may be an orderly proceeding by Law And for * Heb. 12. 9. Parents 't is true when Children are young they may chastise them without other Accuser or VVitnesse then themselves and yet the children are to give them reverence And 't is presumed that naturall affection will prevaile so far with them that they will not punish them too much For all experience tells us almost to the losse of Education that they * God used Samuel as a Messenger against Eli for his overmuch indulgence to his sonnes 1 Sam. 3. 13. And yet Samuel himselfe committed the very same fault concerning his own sonnes 1 Sam. 8. 3. 5. And this Indulgence occasioned the Change of the Civill government as the former was the losse of the Priesthood punish them too little even when there is cause Yet when Children are growne up and come to some full use of their owne Reason the Apostles Rule is †Coloss. 3. 21. Colos. 3. Parents provoke not your Children And if the Apostle prevaile not with froward Parents there 's a Magistrate and a Law to relieve even a sonne against a Crimini ci Tribunus inter eatera dabat quod filium juvenem nullius probri compertum extorrem urbe domo penatibus foro luce congressu aequalium prohibituÌ„ in opus servile propè in carcerem atque in ergastulum dederit Liv. dec 1. l. 7. unnaturall Parents as it was in the Case of T. Manlius against his over Imperious Father And an expresse Law there was among the Iewes Deut. 21. when Children Deut. 21. 19. were growne up and fell into great extremities that the Parents should then bring them to the Magistrate and not be too busie in such cases with their own Power So suppose Rome be a Prince yet her Subjects must be tryed by Gods Law the Scripture And suppose her a Mother yet there is or ought to be Remedy against her for her Children that are growne up if she forget all good Nature and turne Stepdame to them Well the Reason why the Iesuite asked the Question Quo Iudice Who should be Iudge He sayes was this Because there 's no equity in it that the Protestants should be Iudges in their owne Cause But now upon more Deliberation A. C. tells us as if he A. C. p. 57. knew the Iesuites minde as well as himselfe as sure I thinke he doth That the Iesuite directed this Question chiefly against that speech of mine That there were Errors in Doctrine of Faith and that in the Generall Church as the Iesuite understood my meaning The Iesuite here tooke my meaning right For I confesse I said there were Errours in Doctrine and dangerous ones too in the Church of Rome I said likewise that when the Generall Church could not or would not Reforme such it was Lawfull for Particular Churches to Refâ—…rme themselves But then I added That the Generall Church not universally taken but in these Westerne parts fell into those Errours being swayed in these latter Ages by the predominant Power of the Church of Rome under whose Government it was for the most part forced And all men of understanding know how oft and how easily an Over-potent Member carries the whole with it in any Body Naturall Politick or Ecclesiasticall Yea but A. C. telles us That never any Competent Iudge did so censure the Church And indeed that no Power A. G. p. 57. on Earth or in Hell it selfe can so farre prevaile against the Generall Church as to make it Erre generally in any one Point of Divine Truth and much lesse to teach any thing by its full Authority to be a Matter of Faith which is contrary to Divine Truth expressed or involved in Scriptures rightly understood And that therefore no Reformation of Faith can be needfull in the Generall Church but only in Particular Churches And for proofe of this he cites S. Mat. 16. and 28. S. Luk. 22. S. Iohn 14. and 16. In this trouâ—…lesome and quarrelling Age I am most unwilling to meddle with the Erring of the Church in generall The Church of England is content to passe that over And though * Art 19. She tels us That the Church of Rome hath Erred even in matters of Faith yet of the Erring of the Church in generall She is modestly silent But since A. C. will needs have it That the whole Church did never generally Erre in any one Point of Faith he should doe well to Distinguish before he be so peremptory For if he mean no more then that the whole Vniversal Church of Christ cannot universally Erre in any one Point of Faith simply necessary to altmens salvation he fights against no Adversary that I know
It must follow That Christ should be present with all his Ministers that Preach his word to make them Insallible which daily Experience tells us is not so The third Place urged by A C is S. Luke 22. Where the Prayer of Christ S. Luke 22. 3â—… will effect no more then his Promise hath performed neither of them implying an Insallibility for or in the Church against all Errours whatsoever And this almost all his owne side confesse is spoken either of S. Peters person only or of him and his Successors * Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pont c 3. §. Est igitur tertia Hee understood the place of both S. Peter and his Successors or both Of the Church it is not spoken and therefore cannot prove an unerring Power in it For how can that Place prove the Church cannot Erre which speakes not at all of the Church And 't is observable too that when the Divines of Paris expounded this Place that Christ here prayed for S. Peter as he represented the VVhole Catholike Church and obtained for it that the Faith of the Catholike Church nunquam deficeret should never so erre as quite to fall away †Quae Expositio falsa est Primò quia c. Bell. ibid. §. 2. And he sayes t is false because the Parisiâ—…ns expounded it of the Church only Uolunt enim prosolâ Ecclesiae esse â—…ratum Ibid. §. 1. Bellarmine is so stiffe for the Pope that he sayes expresly This Exposition of the Parisians is false and that this Text cannot be meant of the Catholike Church Not be meant of it Then certainly it ought not to be alledged as Prooâ—…e of it as here it is by A. C. The fourth Place named by A. C. is S. Iohn 14. And the consequent Place to it A. C. p. 57 S. Ioh. 14. 16. 17. S. Iohn 10. 13. S. John 16 These Places containe an other Promise of Christ concerning the comming of the Holy Ghost Thus That the Comforter shall abide with them forever That this Comforter is the Spirit of Truth And That this Spirit of Truth will lead them into all Truth Now this Promise as it is applyed to the Church consisting of all Believers which are and have beene since Christ appeared in the Flesh including the Apostles is a Field L. 4. de Eccles. c. 2. free from all errâ—…ur and ignorance of Divine things absolute and without any Restriction For the Holy Ghost did lead them into all Truth so that no Errour was to be found in that Church But as it is appliable to the whole Church Militant in all succeeding times so the Promise was made with a Limitation b And Theodoret proceeds farther and sayes Neque divini Prophetae neque mirabiles Apostoli omnia praesciverunt Quae cunque enim expediebant ea illis significavit gratia Spiritûs Theod. in 1. Tim. 3. v. 14 15. namely that the Blessed Spirit should abide with the Church for ever and lead it into all Truth but not simply into all Curious Truth no not in or about the Faith but into all Truth necessary to Salvation And against this Truth the Whole Catholike Church cannot erre keeping her self to the Direction of the Scripture as Christ hath appointed her For in this very Place where the Promise is made That the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things 't is added that He shall bring all things to their remembrance What simply all things No But all things which Christ had told them S. Joh. 14. So there is a Limitation S. Ioh. 14. 26. put upon the words by Christ himselfe And if the Church will not erre it must not ravell Curiously into unnecessary Truths which are out of the Promise nor follow any other Guide then the Doctrine which Christ hath left behinde him to governe it For if it will come to the End it must keepe in the Way And Christ who promised the Spirit should lead hath no where promised that it shall follow its Leader into all Truth and at least Infallibly unlesse you will Limit as before So no one of these Places can make good A. C s. Assertion That the Whole Church cannot erre Generally in any one Point of Divine Truth In Absolute Foundations c §. 21. Nu. 5. she cannot in Deductions and Superstructures she may Now to all that I have said concerning the Right which Particular Churches have to Reforme themselves when the Generall Church cannot for Impediments or will not for Negligence which I have prooved at large a § 24 N 1 2 c. A. C. p. 57. before All the Answer that A. C. gives is First Quo Judice Who shall be Iudge And that shall bee the Scripture and the * Si de modica Quaestione Disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in Antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conversati sunt ab its de praesenti Quaestione sumere quod certum liquidum est Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquissent nobis nonne oportebat Ordinem sequi Traditionis c. Irenaeus L. 8. advers Hares c. 4. Primitive Church And by the Rules of the one and to the Integrity of the other both in Faith and Manners any Particular Church may safely Reforme it selfe Secondly That no Reformation in Faith can be needfull in the Generall Church but only in Particular Churches In which Case also he saith Particular Churches may not A. C p. 58. take upon them to Judge and Condemne others of Errours in Faith Well how farre forth Reformation even of Faith may be necessary in the Generall Church I have expressed c §. 25. Nu. 4. already And for Particular Churches I do not say that they must take upon them to Iudge or Condemne others of Errour in Faith That which I say is They may Reforme themselves Now I hope to Reforme themselves and to Condemne others are two different Workes unlesse it fall out so that by Reforming themselves they do by consequence Condemne any other that is guilty in that Point in which they Reforme themselves and so farre to Iudge and Condemne others is not onely lawfull but necessary A man that lives religiously doth not by and by sit in Iudgement and Condemne with his mouth all Prophane Livers But yet while he is silent his very Life condemnes them And I hope in this Way of Judicature A. C. dares not say 't is unlawfull for a particular Church or man to Condemne another And farther whatsoever A. C. can say to the contrary there are diverse Cases where Heresies are knowne and notorious in which it will be hard to say as he doth That A. C. p. 58. one Particular Church must not Iudge or Condemne another so farre forth at least as to abhorre and protest against the Heresie of it Thirdly If one Particular Church may not Iudge or Condemne another what must then be done where Particulars need Reformation What Why
perpetuum Scripturâ testante errabit Quòd Rom. Pontifex si Canonic è suerit ordinatus meritis B. Petri indubit an t èr efficitur sanctus Quòd à fidelitate Iniquorum subditos potest absolvere Gregory the seventh in the great power which he now uses in and over these parts of the ChristiaÌ„ world Thirdly A. C. knowing 't is not enough to say this That the Pope is Pastour of the whole Church labours to prove it And first he tels us that Irenaeus intimates so much but he doth not tell us where And he is ' much scanted of Ancient Proofe if Irenaeus stand alone Besides Irenaeus was a Bishop of the Gallicane Church and a very unlikely man to Captivate the Liberty of that Church under the more powerfull Principality of Rome And how can we have better evidence of his Iudgement touching that Principality then the Actions of his Life When Pope Victor Excommunicated the Asian Churches 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 †Euseb. L. 5. c. 25. all at a blow was not Irenaeus the Chiefe man that reprehended him for it A very unmeet and undutifull thing sure it had been in Irenaeus in deeds to taxe him of rashnesse and inconsideratenesse whom in words A. C. would have to be acknowledged by him The Supreme and Infallible Pastour of the Vniversall Church But the Place of Irenaeus which A. C. meanes I thinke is this whâ—…â—…he uses these words indeed but short of A. C s. sense of it †Adhanc Ecclesiam propter potentiorem Principalitatem necesse est â—…mnem convenire Ecclesiam 1. e. eos qui sunt undique sideles In quá semper ab his qui sunt undique conservata est ea quae est ab Apostolu Traditio Iren. L. 3. c. 3. To this Church he speakes of Rome propter potentiorem principalitatem for the more powerfull Principality of it 't is necessary that every Church that is the faithfull undique round about should have recourse Should have recourse so A. C. translates it And what doth this availe him A. C. p. 58. Very great reason was there in Irenaeus his time That upon any Difference arising in the Faith omnes undique Fideles all the Faithfull or if you will all the Churches round about should have recourse that is resort to Rome being the Imperiall City and so a Church of more powerfull Principality then any other at that time in those parts of the world Well Will this exalt Rome to be the Head of the Church Vniversall What if the States and Policies of the world be much changed since and this Conveniâ—…ncy of resorting to Rome be quite ceased Then is not Rome devested of her more powerfull Principality But the meaning of A C. is We must so have recourse to Rome as to submit our Faith to hers And then not onely in Irenaeus his time but through all times reforme Our selves by her Rule That is all the Faithfull not undique round about but ubique every where must agree with Rome in point of Faith This he meanes and Rome may thank him for it But this Irenaeus saith not nor will his words beare it nor durst A C. therfore construe him so but was content to smooth it over with this ambiguous phrase of having recourse to Rome Yet this is a place as much stood upon by them as any other in all Antiquity And should I grant them their owne sense That all the faithfull everywhere must agree with Rome which I may give but can never grant yet were not this saying any whit prejudiciall to us now For first here 's a powerfull Principality ascribed to the Church of Rome And that no man of learning doubts but the Church of Rome had within its owne Patriarchate and Iurisdiction and that was very large containing a Ed. Brierwood of the Iurisdiction and Limits of the Patriarchs in the time of the Nicen Councel Ad. Qu. 1. M. S. all the Provinces in the Diocesse of Italy in the old sense of the word Diocesse which Provinces the Lawyers and others terme Suburbicarias There were ten of them The three Ilands Sicily Corsica and Sardinia and the other seven upon the firme land of Italie And this I take it is plaine in Ruffinus For he living shortly after the Nicene Councell as he did and being of Italy as he was he might very well know the Bounds of that Patriarchs Iurisdiction as it was then practised b Apud Alexandriam ut in urbe Româ vetusta consuetudo servetur ut ille Aegypti ut hic SuburbicariarnÌ„ Ecclesiarum selicitudinem gerat Russin L. 1. Eccles. Hist. c. 6. And he sayes expresly That according to the old Custome the Romane Patriarchs Charge was confined within the Limits of the Suburbicarian Churches To avoid the force of this Testimony c Peron L. 2. of his Reply c. 6. Cardinall Peron layes load upon Ruffinus For he charges him with Passion Ignorance and Rashnesse And one peece of his Ignorance is That hee hath ill translated the Canon of the Councell of Nice Now be that as it may I neither do nor can approve his Translation of that Canon nor can it be easily proved that he purposely intended a Translation All that I urge is that Ruffinus living in that time and Place was very like well to know and understand the Limits and Bounds of that Patriarchate of Rome in which hee lived Secondly heres That it had potentiorem a more powerfull Principality then other Churches had And that the Protestants grant too and that not onely because the Romane Prelate was Ordine primus first in Order and Degree which some One must be to avoid Confusion †Quia cùm Orientales Gracae Ecclesiae Afrcanae etiam multis inter se Opinionum dissentionibus 〈◊〉 haec sedatior aliis minùs turbulenta fuerit Calv. L. 4. Justit c. 6. §. 16. But also because the Romane Sea had wonne a great deale of Credit and gained a great deale of Power to it selfe in Church Assaires Because while the Greeke yea and the African Châ—…rches too were turbulent and distracted with many and dangerous Opinions the Church of Rome all that while and a good while after Irenaeus too was more calme and constant to the Truth Thirdly here 's a Necessity say they required That every Church that is the faithfull which are every where agree with that Church But what simply with that Church what ever it doe or believe No nothing lesse For Irenaeus addes with that Church in quâ in which is conserved that Tradition which was delivered by the Apostles And God forbid but it should be necessary for all Churches and all the faithfull to agree with that Ancient Apostolike Church in all those Things in which it keepes to the Doctrine and Discipline delivered by the Apostles In Irenaeus his time it kept these better then any other Church and by this in part obtained potentiorem Principalitate a Greater
power then other Churches but not over all other Churches And as they understand Irenae a Necessity lay upon all other Churches to agree with this but this Necessity was laid upon them by the Then Integrity of the Christian Faith there professed not by the Universality of the Romane Jurisdiction now challenged And let Rome reduce it selfe to the Observation of Tradition Apostolike to which it then held and I will say as Irenaeus did That it will be then necessary for every Church and for the Faithfull every where to agree with it Lastly let me Observe too That Irenaeus made no doubt but that Rome might fall away from Apostolicall Tradition as well as other Particular Churches of great Name have done For he does not say in quâ servanda semper erit sed in quâ servata est Not in which Church the Doctrine delivered from the Apostles shal ever be entirely kept That had beene home indeed But in which by God's grace and mercy it was to that time of Irenaeus so kept and preserved So wee have here in Irenaeus his Iudgement the Church of Rome then Intire but not Infallible And endowed with a more powerfull Principality then other Churches but not with an Universall Dominion over all other Churches which is the Thing in Question But to this place of Irenaeus A. C. joynes a reason of his owne For he tels us the Bishop of Rome is A. C. p. 58. S. Peter's Successour and therefore to Him we must have recourse The Fathers I deny not ascribe very much to S. Peter But 't is to S. Peter in his owne person And among them Epiphanius is as free and as frequent in extolling S. Peter as any of them And yet did he never intend to give an Absolute Principality to Rome in S. Peter's right There is a Noted Place in that Father where his words are these †Ipse autem Dominus constituit â—…um Primum Apostolorum Petram firmam super quam Ecclesia Dei adificat a est portae inferorum non valebunt adversus illam c. Juxta omnem enim modum in Ipso firmata est fides qui accepit Clavem Coelorum c. In hoc enim omnes Questiones ac Subtilitates fidei inveniuntur Epiphan in Ancorato Edit Paris Lat. 1564. fol. 497. A. Edit verò Grace Latin To. 2. p. 14. For the Lord himselfe made S. Peter the first of the Apostles a firme Rocke upon which the Church of God is built and the Gates of Hell shall not prevaile against it c. For in him the Faith is made firme every way who received the Key of Heaven c. For in him all the Questions and Subtilties of the Faith are found This is a great Place at first sight too and deserves a Marginall Note to call young Readers eyes to view it And it hath this Note in the Old Latine Edition at Paris 1564. Petri Principatus Praestantia Peter's Principality and Excellency This Place as much shew as it make for the Romane Principality I shall easily cleare and yet doe no wrong either to S. Peter or the Romane Church For most manifest it is That the authority of S. Peter is a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For there bâ—…gins the Arâ—…ument of Epiphanius urged here to proove the Godhead of the Holy Ghost And then follow the Elogyes given to S. Peter the better to set off and make good that Authority As that hee was b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Princeps Apostolorum the Prince of the Apostles and pronounced blâ—…ssed by Christ because as God the Father revealed to him the Godhead of the Sonne so did the Sonne the Godhead of the Holy Ghost After this Epiphanius calls Him c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 solidam Petram a solid Rocke upon which the Church of God was founded and against which the Gates of Hell should not prevaile And addes That the Faith was rooted and made firme in him d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. every way in him who received the Key of Heaven And after this he gives the Reason of all e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. S. Mâ—… 16. 17. Because in Him mark I pray 't is still in Him as he was blessed by that Revelation from God the Father S. Matthew 16. were found all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the very Niceties and exactnesse of the Christian Faith For he prosessâ—…d the Godhead of the Sonne and of the Holy Ghost And so Omni modo every Point of Faith was 〈◊〉 in Him And this is the full meaning of that Learned Father in tâ—…is passage Now therefore Building the Church upon Saint Peter in Epiphanius his sense is not as if He and his Successors were to be Monarchs ovâ—…r it for ever But it is the edifying and establishing the Church in the true Faith of Christ by the Confession which S. Pâ—…ter made And so f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Qui factus est nobis rever à solida Petra firmans fidem Domini In quâ Petrá aedificata est Ecclesia juxta omnem modum Primò quòd confessus est Christum esse Filium Dei vi vi statim audivit super hanc Petram soliâ—… 〈◊〉 adisicabo Ecclesiam 〈◊〉 Etiam de Sp. Sancto idem c. Epipha L. 2. Hares 59. contra Catharos To. 1. p. 500. Edit Graeco-Lat Hee expresses himselfe elsewhere most plainly Saint Peter saith he who was made to us indeed a solid Rock firming the Faith of our Loâ—…d On which Rocke the Church is built juxta omneÌ„ modum every way First that he Confessed Christ to be the Sonne of the Living God and by and by he heard Upon this Rocke of solid Faith I will build my Church And the same Confession he made of the Holy Ghost Thus was S. Peter a solid Rocke upon which the Church was founded omni modo every way That is the Faith of the Church was a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ibid. confirmed by him in every Point But that S. Peter was any Rocke or Foundation of the Church so as that he and his Successours must be relied on in all matters of Faith and governe the Church like Princes or Monarchs that Epiphanius never thought of And that he did never thinke so I prove it thus For beside this apparent meaning of his Context as is here expressed how could hee possibly thinke of a Supremacy due to S. Peter's Successour that in most expresse termes and that b Ille primus speaking of S. Iames the Lords Brother Episcopalem Cathedram capit quum ei ante â—…teros omnes suum in terris Thronum Dominus tradidisset Epiphan L. 3. Hares 78. To. 2. p. 1039. Et ferè similiter To. 1. L. 1. Hares 29. twice repeated makes S. Iames the brother of our Lord and not S. Peter succeed our Lord in the Principality of the Church And Epiphanius was too full both of Learning and Industrie to
of all doubt neither First because many Learned men have challenged many Popes for teaching Heresy and that 's against the true Faith And that which so many Learned Men have affirmed is not out of all doubt Or if it be why does Bellarmine take so much paines to confute and disproove them as †Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pont. c. 8. he doth Secondly because Christ obtained of his Father every thing that he prayed for if he prayed for it absolutely and not under a Condition Father I know thou hearest me alwayes S. Iohn 11. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for S. Peter Therefore whatsoever he S. Iohn 11. 42. asked for him was granted Therfore if Christ intended his Successors as well as himselfe his Prayer was granted for his Successors as well as for himselfe But then if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely as he doth * Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum etiam ad Successores pertinet Bel. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Quarto Donum hoc That the whole Gift obtained by this Prayer for S. Peter did belong to his Successors and then by and by after breake this Gift into two parts and call the first part into doubt whether it belongs to his Successors or no he cannot say the second part is out of all doubt For if there be reason of doubting the one there 's as much reason of doubting the other since they stand both on the same foot The Ualidity of Christ's Prayer for Saint Peter Yea but Christ charged S. Peter to governe and feede his whole flocke S. Iohn 21. Nay soft 'T is but his Sheepe S. Iohn 21. 15. and his Lambes and that every Apostle and every Apostles Successor hath charge to doc * Mat. 28. 29 S. Mat. 10. 17. The same power and charge is gâ—…en to them al. A. C. p. 58. S. Matth. 28. But over the whole Flocke 〈◊〉 find no one Apostle or Successor set And 't is a poore shift to say as A C doth That the Bishop of Rome is set over the whole Flocke because both over Lambes and Sheep For in every flock that is not of barren Weathers there are Lamâ—…s and Sheepe that is †And this seemes to me to allâ—…de to that of S. Paul 1 Corinth 3 2. and Heb. 5. 12. Some are sed with milke and some with stronger meat The Lambes with milke and the Sheepe with stronger meate But here A. C. followes Pope Hildebrand close who in the Case of the Emperor then asked this Question Quando Christus Ecclesiam suam Petro commisit dixit Pasce Oves meas excepitne Reges Plat. in vita Greg 7. And certainly Kings are not exempted from being fed by the Church But from being spoyled of their Kingdomes by any Church-men that they are weaker and stronger Christians not People and Pastors Subjects and Governouâ—…s as A. C. expounds it to bring the Necks of Princâ—…s under Romane Pride And if Kings bee meant yet then the command is Pasce feed them But Deponere or Occiure to depose or kill them is not Pascere in any sense Lanii id est non Pastori that 's the Butchers not the Shepheards part If a Sheep go astray never so far 't is not the Shepheards part to kill him at least if he doe non pascit dum occidit he doth not certainly feede while he killes And for the Close That the Bishop of Rome shall never refuse to feed and governe the whole stock in such sort as A. C. p. 58. that neither particular Man nor Church shall 〈◊〉 just Cause under pâ—…etence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Sâ—…paration from the whole Church By A. C s. favour this is meere begging of the Question He sayes the Pope shall ever governe the Whole Church so as that there shall be no just Cause given of a Separation And that is the very Thing which the Protestants charge upon him Namely that he hath governed if notthe Whole yet so much of the Church as he hath beene able to bring under his Power so as that he hath given too just Cause of the present continued separation And as the Corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith in the Church of Rome were the Cause of the first Separation so are they at this present day the Cause why the separation continues And further I for my part am cleare of Opinion that the Errours in the Doctrine of Faith which are charged upon the whole Church at least so much of the whole as in these parts of Europe hath beene kept under the Romane Iurisdiction have had their Originall and Continuance from this that so much of the Vniversall Church which indeed they account All hath forgotten her owne Liberty and submitted to the Romane Church and Bishop and so is in a manner forced to embrace all the Corruptions which the Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon itself And being now not able to free her selfe from the Romane Iurisdiction is made to continue also in all her Corruptions And for the Protestants they have made no separation from the Generall Church properly so called for therein A. C. said well the Popes Administration can give no Cause to separate from that but A. C. p. 58. their Separation is only from the Church of Rome and such other Churches as by adhering to her have hazarded themselves and do now miscall themselves the Whole Catholike Church Nay even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her Essence but in her Errours not in the Things which Constitute a Church but only in such Abuses and Corruptions as work toward the Dissolution of a Church F. I also asked who ought to judge in this Case The B. said a Generall Councell B. And surely What greater or surer Iudgement you can have where sense of Scripture is doubted § 26 then a Generall Councell I doe not see Nor doe you doubt And A. C. grants it to be a most Competent A. C. p. 59. Iudge of all Controversies of Faith so that all Pastors be gathered together and in the Name of Christ and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost and make great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures and other Grounds of Faith And then Decree what is to bee held for Divine Truth For then saith he 't is Firme and Insallible or els there is nothing firm upon earth As faire as this Passage seems and as freely as I have granted that a Generall Councell is the best Judge on earth where the sense of Scripture is doubted yet even in this passage there are some things Considerable As first when shall the Church hope for such a Generall Councell in which all Pastors shall be gathered together there was never any such Generall Councell yet nor doe I believe such can be had So that 's supposed in vaine and you might have learn'd this of *
Hath Christ our Lord saith hee in this Case provided no Rule no Iudge Infallibly to determine Controversies and to procure Vnitie and Certainty of Beliefe Indeed the Protestants admit no Infallible Meanes Rule or Iudge but onely Scripture which every man may interpret as hee pleases and so all shall bee uncertaine Truly I must confesse there are many Impediments to hinder the Calling of a Generall Councell You know in the Auncient Church there was †Christianitas in diversas Haereses scissa est quia non er at licentia Episcopis in unum convenire persecutione saeviente usque ad tempora Constantini c. Isidor praefat in Concil Edit Uenetiis 1585. hinderance enough and what hurt it wrought And afterward though it were long first there was provision made for †Frequens Generalium Conciliorum celebratio est praecipua cultura Agri Dominici c. Et illorum neglectus Errores Hareses Schismata disseminat Hee prateritorum temporum recordatio praesentium consideratio ante oculos nostros ponunt Itaque sancimus ut amodo Concilia Generalia celebrentur it a quod Primum à fine hujus Concilii in quin juâ—…nnium immediatè sequens Secundum verò à fine illius in septennium deinceps de decennio in decennium perpetuo celebrentur c. Concil Constan. Sess. 39. Et apud Gerson Tom. 1. p. 230. Et Pet. de Aâ—…aco Card Cameracensis libellum obtulit in Concil Constant. de Reformatione Ecclesiae contra Opinionem eorum qui putarunt Concilia Generalia minus necessariaesse quia Omnia benè a Pâ—…tribus nostris ordinata sunt c. In fascic Rerum expetendarum fol. 28. Et Schismatibus debet Ecclesia cito per Concilia Generalia provideri ut in Primitiva Ecclesia docuerunt Apostoli Ut Act. 6. Act. 15. Ibid fol. 204. A. frequent calling of Councels and yet no Age since saw them called according to that Provision in every Circumstance therefore Impediments there were eenough or else some declined them wilfully though there were no Impediments Nor will I deny but that when they were called there were as many * In Concil Arimincusi multis paucorum fraude deceptis c. S. Aug. L. 3. cont Maximinum c. 14. Practices to disturbe or pervert the Councels And these Practices were able to keepe many Councels from being all of one minde But if being called they will not be of one minde I cannot helpe that Though that very not agreeing is a shrewd signe that the other Spirit hath a partie there against the Holy Ghost Now A. C. would know what is to be done for Re-uniting of a Church divided in Doctrine of the Faith when this Remedy by a Generall Councell cannot be had Sure Christ our Lord saith he hath provided some Rule some Iudge in such and such like Cases to procure unity and certainty of beliefe I believe so too for he hath left an Infallible Rule the Scripture And that by the manifest Places in it which need no Dispute no Externall Iudg is a Non per difficiles nos Deus ad Beat am vitam Quaestiones vocat c. In absoluto nobis facili est aeternitas Iesum suscitatum à mortuis per Deum Credere Ipsum esse Dominum consiteri c. S. Hilar. L. 10. de Trin. ad finem able to settle Vnity and Certainty of Beliefe in Necessaries to Salvation And in Non necessariis in and about things not necessarie there ought not to bee a Contention to a a Cyprianus Collegae ipâ—…us credentes Haereticos Schismaticos Baptismum non habere sine Baptismo receptis c. iis tamen communicare quam separari ab Vnitate maluerunt S. Aug L. 2. de Baptis cont Donatist c 6. Et hi non contaminabant Cyprianum Ibid. sine Separation And therefore A. C. does not well to make that a Crime that the Protestants admit no Infallible Rule but the Scripture onely Or as he I doubt not without some scorne termes it beside onely Scripture For what need is there of another since this is most Infallible and the same which the b Recensuit cuncta sanctis Scripturis consona Euseb. L. 5. Hist. c. 20. De Irenaeo Regula Principalis de quâ Paracletus agnitus Tert. de Monogam c. 2. And this is true though the Authour spoke it when he was Lapsed Ipsas Scripturas apprimè tenens S. Hieron ad Marcellum adversus Montanum To. 2. Hoc quia de Scripturts non habet authoritatem eâdem facilitate contemnitur quà probatur S. Hieron in S. Matth. 23. Manifestus est fidei lapsus liquidum superbiae vitium vel respuere aliquid eorum quae Scriptura habet vel inducere quicquam quod scriptum non est S. Basil. Sâ—…rm de Fide To. 2. p. 154. Edit Basileae 1565. Contra insurgentes Hareses saepe pugnavi Agraphis verùm non alienis à piâ secundùm Scripturam sententiâ Ibid. p. 153. And before Basil Tertul. Adoro Scripturae plenitudinem c. si non est scriptum timeat Hermogenes Vae illud adjicientibus vel detrahentibus destinatum Tertul. advers Hermog c. 22. And Paulinus plainely cals it Regulam Directionis Epist. 23. De hâc Regula tria observanda sunt 1. Regula est sed à tempore quo scripta 2. Regula est sed per Ecclesiam applicanda non per privatum Spiritum 3. Regula est mensurat omnia quae continet continet autem omnia necessaria ad salutem vel mediatè vel immediatè Et hoc tertium habet Biel. in 3. D. 25. q. unicâ Conclus 4. M. And this is all we say Hook L. 5. Eccles Pol. §. 22. Ancient Church of Christ admitted And if it were sufficient for the Ancient Church to guide them and direct their Councels why should it be now held insufficient for us at least till a free Generall Councell may bee had And it hath both the Conditions which c Regula Catholica sidei debet esse certa nota Si certa non sit non erit Regula Si nota non sit non erit Regula nobis Bellar. L. 1. de Verbo Dei c. 2. §. 5. Sed nihil est vel certius vel notius sacrâ Scripturâ Bellar. ibid. §. 6. Therefore the Holy Scripture is the Rule of Catholike Faith both in it selfe and to us also For in things simply Necessary to Salvation it is abundantly knowne and manifest as §. 16. Nu. 5. Bellarmine requires to a Rule Namely that it be Certaine and that it bee Knowne For if it bee not certaine it is no Rule and if it be not knowne 't is no Rule to us Now the d Convenit inter nos omnes omnino Haereticos Verbum Dei esse Regulam fidei ex quâ de Dogmatibus judicandum sit Bellarm. Praefat. To. 1. fine And 〈◊〉 there perhaps he includes Traditions yet thaâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proved yet Nâ—…ther
indeed can he include 〈◊〉 For he speakes of that Word of God upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reâ—…cks consent But concerning Traditions they â—…ll consent not That they are a Rule of Faith Therâ—… he speakes not of them Romanists dare not deny but this Rule is â—…aine and that it is 〈◊〉 â—…ntly Knowne in 〈◊〉 â—…lest Places of 〈◊〉 â—…uch as are 〈◊〉 to Salvation none of the Ancients did ever 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…here's an Infallible Rule Nor need there be such feare 〈◊〉 Private Spirit in these manifest things which beâ—… 〈◊〉 read or heard teach themselves Indeed you 〈◊〉 had need of some other Iudge and he a pâ—…opitious one to crush the Pope's more powerfull â—…rincipality out of Pasce oves feed my sheepe And yet this must be the meaning if you will have it whether Gideon's fleece bee wet or dry Iudg. 6. that is whether there be dew Iudg. 6. enough in the Text to water that sense or no. But I pray when God hath left hisâ—… Church this Infallible Rule what warrant have you to seeke another You have shewed us none yet what e're you thinke you have And I hope A. C. cannot thinke it followes that Christ our Lord hatâ—… provided no Rule to determine necessary Controversies because hee hath not provided the Rule which he would have Besides let there be such a living Iudge as A. C. would have and let the * For so he affirmes p. 58. Pope be he yet that is not sufficient against the malice of the Divell and impious men to keepe the Church at all Times from Renting even in the Doctrine of Faith or to soder the Rents which are made For Oportet esse Haereses 1. Cor. 11. Heresies there will be and Heresies properly there cannot 1. Cor. 11. 19. be but in Doctrine of the Faith And what will A. C. in this Case do Will he send Christ our Lord to provide another Rule then the Decision of the Bishop of Rome because he can neither make Unity nor Certainty of Beliefe And as 't is most apparent he cannot doe it de facto so neither hath he power from Christ over the Whole Church to doe it nay out of all doubt 't is not the least reason why de facto he hath so little successe because de Iure he hath no power given But since A. C. requires another Iudge besides the Scripture and in Cases when either the time is so difficult that a Generall Councell cannot be called or the Councell so set that they will not agree Let 's see how he proves it 'T is thus every earthly kingdome saith he when matters cannot be composed by a Parliament which cannot A. C. p. 60. be called upon all Occasions why doth he not adde here And which being called will not alwaies be of one minde as he did adde it in Case of the Councell hath besides the Law Bookes some living Magistrates and Judges and above all one visible King the Highest Iudge who hath Authority sufficient to end all Controversies and settle Unity in all Temporall Affaires And shall we thinke that Christ the wisest King hath provided in his kingdome the Church onely the Law-bookes of the Holy Scripture and no living visible Iudges and above all one Chiefe so assisted by his Spirit as may suffice to end all Controversies for Vnity and Certainty of Faith which can never be if every man may interpret Holy Scripture the Law-Bookes as he list This is a very plausible Argument with the Many But the foundation of it is but a †Qua subtilissime de hoc disputari possunt ità ut non similitudinibus quae plerunque fallunt sed rebus ipsis satisfiat c. S. Aug. L. de Quant Animae c. 32. Whereupon the Logicians tell us rightly that this is a Fallacy unlesse it be taken reduplicativè i. e. de similibus qua similia sunt And hence Arist. himself 2. Top. Loc. 32. sayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Rursum in Similibus si similitèr se habent Similitude and if the Similitude hold not in the maine the Argument's nothing And so I doubt it will proove here I 'le observe Particulars as they lie in order And first he will have the whole Militant Church for of that we speake a Kingdome But this is not certaine For they are no meane ones which thinke our Saviour Christ left the Church Militant in the Hands of the Apostles and their Successours in an Aristocraticall or rather a Mixt Government and that the Church is not a When Gerson writ his Tract De Auferibilitate Pape sure hee thought the Church might continue in a very gooâ—… Being without a Monarchicall Head Therefore in his Iudgement the Church is not by any Command or Institution of Christ Monarchicall Gerson par 1. pag. 154. When S. Uierom wrote thus Ubicuaque fuerit Episcopus sive Romae sive Eugubii sive Constantinopoli sive Rhegit sive Alexandriae sive Tanis ejusdem meriti cjusdem est Sacerdotii S. Hieron Epist. ad Evagrium doubtlesse he thought not of the Romane Bishops Monarcâ—…y For what Bishop is of the same Merit or of the same Degree in the Priesthood with the Pope as things are now carried at Rome Affirmamus etiam Patribus Graecis Latinis ignot as esse voces de Petro aut Papa Monarcha Monarchia Namquod in superioribus obscrvabamus reperiri obsâ—…rvabamus dictiones positas pro Episcopatu nihil hoc ad râ—…m facit 〈◊〉 Casaub. Excrcitatione 15. ad Annales Eccles. Baron §. 12. p. 378. §. 11 p. 360. diserte asserit probat Ecclesiae Regimen Aristocraticum fuisse Monarchicall otherwise then the Trumphant and Militant make one Body under Christ the Head And in this sense indeed and in this onely the Church is a most absolute Kingdome And the very Expressing of this sense is a full Answer to all the Places of Scripture and other Arguments brought by b Bellar. L. a. de Concil c. 16. §. 1 2 3. Bellarmine to prove that the Church is a Monarchie But the Church being as large as the world Christ thought it fitter to governe it Aristocratically by Diverse rather then by One Vice Roy. And I believe this is true For all the time of the first three hundred yeares and somewhat better it was governed Aristocratically if we will impaitially consider how the Bishops of those times carried the whole Businesse of admitting any new consecrated Bishops or others to or rejecting them from their Communion For I have carefully Examined this for the first sixe hundred yeares even to and within the time of S. Gregory the great c S. Greg. L. 9. Epist. 58. L. 12. Epist. 15. Who in the beginning of the seventh hundred yeare sent such Letters to Augustine then Archbishop of Canterburie and to d S. Greg. L. 9. Epist. 61. Quirinus and other Bishops in Ireland And I finde That the Literae Communicatoriae which certified from one Great
prâ—…ng can be questioned in another unlesse it to tall out that 〈◊〉 Scriptuâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 appeare against it Buâ—… eâ—…t 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thâ—…se aâ—…e â—…o 〈◊〉 and manâ—…t and â—…ving the it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whâ—… or 〈◊〉 wiâ—…h 〈◊〉 without a Councell §. 33. 〈◊〉 5. Nâ—… 1. 2. another Councell of equall authority did reverse it And indeed I might have returned upon you againe If a Generall Councell not Confirmed by the Pope may erre which you affirme to what end then a Generall Councell And you may Answer yes For although a Generall Councell may erre yet the Pope as Head of the Church cannot An excellent meanes of unity to have all in the Church as the Pope will have it what ever Scripture say or the Church thinke And then I pray to what end a Generall Councell Will his Holinesse be so holy as to confirme a Generall Councell if it Determine against him And as for * 〈◊〉 L 4. dâ—… 〈◊〉 Pâ—…t â—…7 §. 3. c. Bellarmines reasons why a Generall Councell should be usefull if not necessary though the Pope bee Iâ—…fallible they are so weake in Part and in part so unworthy that I am sory any necessity of a bad cause should force so learned a man to make use of them Here A. C. tels mee The Caution mentioned as omitted makes my Answer werse then the Iesuite related A. C. p. 63. â—…4 it And that in two things First in that the Iesuite relates it thus Although it may erre but the Caution makes it as if it did actually erre Secondly in that the Iesuite relates That wee are bound to hold it till another come to reverse it that is wâ—…e not knowing whether it doe erre or not but onely that it may erre But the Caution puts the Case so as if the Determination of a Generall Councell actually erring were not ipso jure invalid but must stand in force and have externall Obedience yeelded to it till not onely morall Certainty but Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration to the Contrary make the errour appeare And when it appeares wee must yeeld our Obedience till a Councell of equall Authority reverse it which perhaps will not bee found in an whole Age. So either the Iesuite relates this speech truly or lesse disgracefully And A. C. thinkes that upon better Iudgement I Will not allow this Caution Truly I shall not thanke the Iesuite for any his kindnesse here And for the Caution I must and doe acknowledge it mine even upon advisement and that whether it make my Answer worse or better And I thinke farther that the Iesuite hath no great Cause to thanke A. C. for this Defence of his Relation First then the Iesuite so sayes A. C. doth in his Relation make it but a supposition That a Generall Councell A. C. p. 63 may erre But the Caution expresses it as actually erring True But yet I hope this Expression makes no Generall Councell actually erre And then it comes all to one whether I suppose that such a Councell may erre or that it doe erre And 't is fitter for clearing the Difficulties into which the Church fals in such a Case to suppose and more then a supposition it is not a Generall Councell * Synodum Generalem aliquoties errâsse percepimus Wald. L. 2. de Doctrin Fidri Art 2. c. 19. §. 1. actually erring then as only under a Possibility of Erring For the Church hath much more to doe to vindicate it selfe from such an Errour actually being then from any the like Errour that might be Secondly A. C. thinkes he hath got great advantage A. C. p. 63. by the words of the Caution in that I say A Generall Councell erring is to stand in force and have externall Obedience at least so farre as it consists in silence Patience and forbearance yeelded to it till Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration to the Contrary make the Error appeare and untill therupon another Councell of equal Authority did reverse it Well! I say it again But is there any one word of mine in the Caution that speakes of our knowing of this Errour Surely not one that 's A. C s. Addition Now suppose a Generall Councell actually Erring in some Point of Divine Truth I hope it will not follow that this Errour must bee so grosse as that forthwith it must needes be knowne to private men And doubtlesse till they know it Obedience must be yeelded Nay when they know it if the Errour be not manifestly against Fundamentall verity in which case a Generall Councell can not easily erre I would have A C. and all wise men Consider Whether Externall Obedience be not even then to be yeelded For if Controversies arise in the Church some end they must have or they 'll teare all in sunder And I am sure no wisdome can thinke that fit Why then say a Generall Councell Erre and an Erring Decree be ipso jure by the very Law it selfe invalid I would have it wisely considered again whether it be not fit to allow a Generall Councell that Honour and Priviledge which all other Great Courts have Namely That there be a Declaration of the Invalidity of its Decrees as well as of the Laws of other Courts before private men can take liberty to refuse Obedience For till such a declaration if the Councel stand not in force A. C sets up Private Spirits to controll Generall Councels w ch is the thing he so often and so much cryes out against in the Protestants Therefore it may seeme very fit and necessary for the Peace of Christendome that a Generall Councell thus erring should stand in force till Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration make the Errourto appeare * It is not long since A C. compared Councels to Parliaments it was but p. 60. And I hope a Parliament and the Acts of it must stand in force thoughsomthing bemistaken in them or found hurtfull till another Parliament of equal Authority reverse it and them For I presume you will not have any inferiour Authority to abrogate Acts of Parliament as that another Councell of equall Authority reverse it For as for Morall Certainty that 's not strong enough in Points of Faith which alone are spoken of here And if another Councell of equall Authority cannot be gotten together in an Age that is such an Inconvenience as the Church must beare when it happens And far better is that inconvenience then this other †§. 33. Consid. 4. N. 1. that any Authority lesse then a Generall Councell should rescinde the Decrâ—…es of it unlesse it erre manifestly and intolera'ly Or that the whole Church upon peaceable and just complaint of this Errour neglect or refuse to call a Councell and examine it And there come in Nationall or Provinciall Councels to a § 24. Nu. 1. reforme for themselves But no way must lye open to private men to b §. 38. Nu. 15. Refuse obedience till the Councell be heard
S. Ioh. 14. 16. This Spirit shall abide with you for ever And e S. Mat. 28. 20. Behold I am with you to the end of the world To these others add f S. Mat. 16. 18. The founding of the Church upon the Rocke against which the gaes of Hell shall not prevaile And Christ's Trayer for S. Peter * S. Luk. 22. 32. That his Faith faile not And Christ's promise That †S. Mat. 18. 20. where two or three are gathered together in his Name hee will bee in the midst of them And that in the * Act. 15 28. Acts It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us For the first which is Leading into all truth and that for ever a Prosp. de vocat Gent. L. t. c. 10. All is not alwaies universally taken in Scripture Nor is it here simply for All Truth For then a Generall Councell could no more erre in matter of Fact then in matter of Faith in which yet b Bellarm. 2. de Conc. c. S. §. Respondeo quidam Where he saith Vbi Queftio est de Facto non de Iure c. In ejusmodi Judiciu Concilium errare posse non est dubium your selves grant it may erre But into Alt c Dubium est an illud docebit omnta S. Ioh. 14. 26. referendum sit ad illud Quaecunque dixi vobis quasi non aliud docturum Spiritum Sanctum dicat quà m quod ipse ante à docuisset non repugnabo si quis it a velit interpretari c. Maldonat in S. Ioh. 14. Truth is a limited All Into all Truth absolutely necessary to Salvation And this when they suffer themselves to be led by the Blessed Spirit by the Word of God And all Truth which Christ had before at least fundamentally delivered unto them d S. Ioh. 16. 14. He shall receive of mine and shew it unto you And againe e S. Ioh. 14. 26. He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your Remembrance which I have told you And for this necessary Truth too the Apostles received this Promise not for themselves and a Councell but for themselves and the f Bellarm. 2. de Con. c. 9. §. Alteram Assistentia Sp. Sancti non est propter Concil sed universam Ecclesiam Whole Catholike Church of which a Councell be it never so generall is a very little part Yea and this very Assistance is not so absolute nor in that manner to the whole Church as it was to the Apostles neither doth Christ in that place speake directly of a Councell but of His Apostles Preaching and Doctrine As for Christ's being with them unto the end of the world the Fathers are so various that in the sense of the Ancient Church we may understand him present in a S. Aug. Tr. â—…0 in S. Ioh. Isidor 1. Sent. cap. 14. Majesty in b S. Hilar. in Psalm 124. Iustin. Martyr Dial. cum Triphone Prosp. Epist. ad Demetriadem Power in Ayd and c S Hilar. in Psal. 124. Prosper Lib. 2. de Voc. Gent. cap. 2. Leo Serm. 2. de Resurrect Dom. cap. 3. Isidor in Ios. c. 12. Assistance against the Difficulties they should find for preaching Christ which is the native sense as I take it And this Promise was made to support their weakenesse As for his Presence in teaching by the Holy Ghost d S. Cyril lib. 7. Dial. de Trin. Prosper Epist. ad Demetriadem few mention it and no one of them which doth speakes of any Infallible Assistance farther then the succeeding Church keepes to the Word of the Apostles as the Apostles kept to the Guidance of the Spirit Besides the e S. Hilar. in Psal. 124. S. Cyril L. 7. Dial. de Trin. S. Aug. 6. de Gen ad Lit. c. 8. S. Leo Serm. 10. de Nat. Dom. c. 5. Isid. in Ios. c. 12. In all which places Vobiscum is either interpreted cum suis or Fidelibus or Universà Ecclesiâ Fathers referre their Speech to the Church Universall not to any Councell or Representative Body And f Hoc colligiâ—…ur sed quaeritur non quid colligitur sed quid 〈◊〉 voluit Malâ—… in S. Mat. 28. Maldonate adds That this His presence by teaching is or may be a Collection from the place but is not the Intention of Christ. For the Rocke upon which the Church is founded which is the next Place we dare not lay any other Foundation then g 1. Cor. 3. 11. Christ Christ laid his h Eph. 2. 20. Apostles no question but upon Himselfe With these S. Peter was laid no man questions and in prime place of Order would his claiming Successours be content with that as appeares and diverse Fathers witnesse by his Particular designement Tu es Petrus But yet the Rocke even there spoken of is not S. Peter's Person either onely or properly but the Faith which he professed And to this besides the Evidence which is in Text and Truth the i S. Ignatius Fp. ad Philadelph Qui suam firmavit Ecclesiam super Petrâ—…m aedificatione spirituali S. Hilar. l. 6. dâ—… Trin. Super hanc igitur Confessionis Petram Ecclesiae ad fiâ—…atio est Et paulo pòst Haec Fid s Ecclesiae fundamentum est S. Greg. Nyss. de Trin. adversus Iudaeos Super hanc Petram adificabo Ecclesiam meam super Confessionem videlicet Christi S. Isid. Pelus Epist. l. 1. Epist. 235. Vt hac ratione certam omnibus Confessionem traderet quam ab eo inspiratus Petrus tanquam Basin ac Fundamentum â—…ecit super quod Dominus Ecclesiam suam extruxit S. Cyril Alex. de Trin. L. 4. Petram opinor per agnominationem aliud nihil quà m inconcussam firmissimam Discipuli fidem vocavit in quâ Ecclesia Christi ita fundata firmata esset ut non laberetur c. B. Theodor. in Cant. Petram appellat fidei pietatem veritatis professionem c. Et super hanc Petram adisicabo Ecclesiam meam S. Greg. Ep. l. 3. Ep. 33. In vera side persâ—…stite vitam vestram in Petram Ecclesiae hoc est in Confessione B. Petri Apostolorum Principis solidate Theophylact in Matth. 16. Super cum adificavit Ecclesiam quia enim confessus erat c. quòd haec Confessio fundamentum erit c. S. Aug. in 1. Ep. S. Ioh. tract 10. Quid est super hanc Petram Super hanc Fidem super id quod dictum est Tues c. S. Bas. Seleuc. Orat. 25. Hanc Confessionem cùm nominâsset Christus Petram Petrum nuncupat eum qui primùm illam est confessus donans illi hanc appellationem tanquam insigne monumentum hujus confessionis Haec enim est reverâ Pietatis Petra haec salutis basis c. S. Iacob Liturg. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 26. c. And some which joyne the Person of S. Peter professe it is propter robur
I think it is undoubted Truth That one and the same Conclusion may be Faith to the Believer that cannot prove and Knowledge to the Learned that can And b Cont. Fund c. 4. S. Augustine I am sure in regard of one and the same thing even this the very Wisdome of the Church in her Doctrine ascribes Vnderstanding to one sort of men and Beliefe to another weaker sort And c Tho. p. 1. q. 2. A. 2. ad 1. Nihil prohibet illud quod secundùm se demonstrabile est scibile ab aliquo acciti ut Credibile qui Demonstrationem non capit Thomas goes with him Now for further satisfaction if not of you yet of others this may well be thought on Man lost by sin the Integrity of his Nature and cannot have Light enough to see the way to Heaven but by Grace This Grace was first merited after given by Christ this Grace is first kindled in Faith by which if we agree not to some Supernaturall Principles which no Reason can demonstrate simply we can never see our way But this Light when it hath made Reason submit it self cleares the Eye of Reason it never puts it out In which sense it may be is that of a L. 3. Rationabilu ubique diffusa Optatut That the very Catholike Church it selfe is reasonable as well as diffused every where By which b Ut ipsâ fide valentiores facti quod credimus intelligere mereannur non jam hominibus sed Deo intrinsecùs mentem nostram firmante illuminante S. Aug. cont Epist Fundamenti c. 14. Reason inlightened which is stronger then Reason the Church in all Ages hath beene able either to convert or convince or at least c Omnia genera Ingeniorum subdita Scripturae S. Aug. L. 22. cont Faust. cap. 96. stop the mouthes of Philosophers and the great men of Reason in the very Point of Faith where it is at highest To the present occasion then The first immediate Fundamentall Points of Faith without which there is no salvation as they cannot be proved by Reason so neither need they be determined by any Councell nor ever were they attempted they are so plaine set downe in the Scripture If about the sense and true meaning of these or necessary deduction out of these Prime Articles of Faith Generall Councels determine any thing as they have done in Nice and the rest there is no inconvenience that one and the same Canon of the Councell should be believed as it reflects upon the Articles and Grounds indemonstrable and d Almain 3. D. 24. q. 1. Tho. 2. 2a q. 1. A. 5. C. Id quod est scitum ab uno homine etiam in statu via est ab alio Creditum qui hoc Demonstrare non novit yet knowne to the Learned by the Meanes and Proofe by which that Deduction is vouched and made good And againe the Conclusion of a Councell suppose that in Nice about the Consubstantiality of Christ with the Father in it selfe considered is indemonstrable by Reason There I believe and assent in Faith But the same Conclusion e Concilium Nicanum deduxit Conclusionem ex Scripturis Bellar 2. de Concil c. 12. §. Sic etià m if you give me the Ground of Scripture and the Creed and somewhat must be supposed in all whether Faith or Knowledge is demonstrable by naturall Reason against any Arrian in the world And if it be demonstrable I may know it and have an Habit of it And what inconvenience in this For the weaker sort of Christians which cannot deduce when they have the Principle granted they are to rest upon the Definition only and their Assent is meere Faith yea and the Learned too where there is not a Demonstration evident to them assent by Faith onely and not by knowledge And what inconvenience in this Nay the necessity of Nature is such that these Principles once given the understanding of man cannot rest but it must be thus And the †S. Pet. 3. 15. Apostle would never have required a man to be alle to give a Reason and an account of the hope that is in him if he might not be able to know his account or have lawfull interest to give it when he knew it without prejudicing his Faith by his knowledge And suppose exact knowledge and meere Beliefe cannot stand together in the same Person in regard of the same thing by the same meanes yet that doth not make void this Truth For where is that exact knowledge or in whom that must not meerely in points of Faith believe the Article or Ground upon which they rest But when that is once believed it can demonstrate many things from it And Definitions of Councels are not Principia Fidei Principles of Faith but Deductions from them And now because you aske Wherein are we nearer Consid. 7. to unity by a Councell if a Councell may erre Besides the Answer given I promised to consider which Opinion was most agreeable with the Church which most able to preserve or reduce Christian Peace The Romane That a Councell cannot erre Or the Protestants That it can And this I propose not as a Rule but leave the Christian world to consider of it as I doe First then I Consider Whether in those Places of Scripture before mentioned or any other there bâ—…e promised to the present Church an absolute Infallibility Or whether such an Infallibility will not serve the turne as * Relect. Cont. 4. q. 2. Notab 3 Exacta Omnimodâ Infallibilitate non indiget sed satis est semel acceptis c. Stapleton after much wrigling is forced to acknowledge One not every way exact because it is enough if the Church doe diligently insist upon that which was once received and there is not need of so great certainty to open and explicate that which lyes hid in the seed of Faith sowne and deduce from it as to seeke out and teach that which was altogether unknowne And if this be so then sure the Church of the Apostles required guidance by a greater degree of Infallibility then the present Church which yet if it follow the Scripture is Infallible enough though it hath not the same degree of Certainty which the Apostles had and the Scripture hath Nor can I tell what to make of Bellarmine that in a whole Chapter disputes five Prerogatives in Certainty of Truth a L. 2 de Con. c. 12. §. ult Cùm utraque sint infallibilis veritatis aquè certa dici possunt that the Scripture hath above a Councell and at last Concludes That They may be said to be equally certain in Infallible Truth The next thing I Consider is Suppose this not Exact but congruous Infallibility in the Church Is it not residing according to Power and Right of Authority in the whole Church and in a Generall Councell only by Power deputed b Nam si Ecclesiae Vniversitati non
est data ulla Authoritas ergo nec Concilio Generali quatenus Ecclesiam Vniversalem repraesentat Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c. 16. §. Quod si Ecclesiae with Mandate to determine The Places of Scripture with Expositions of the Fathers upon them make me apt to believe this S. Peter saith S. Augustine c Petrus personam Ecclesiae Catholicae sustinet huic datae sunt claves quùm Petro datae De Agon Chr. c. 30. did not receive the Keyes of the Church but as sustaining the Person of the Church Now for this Particular suppose the Key of Doctrine be to let in Truth and shut out Error and suppose the Key rightly used infallible in this yet this Infallibility is primely in the Church in whose person not strictly in his owne S. Peter received the Keyes But here Stapleton layes crosse my way againe and would thrust me out of this Consideration He * Rel. Cont. 6. q. 3. A. 5. Sed propter Primatum quem gerebat Ecclesiae ideoque etsi finalitèr Ecclesia accepit tamen formalitèr P â—…trus accepit grants that S. Peter received these Keyes indeed and in the Person of the Church but saith he that was because he was Primate of the Church And therefore the Church received the Keyes finally but S. Peter formally that is if I mistake him not S. Peter for himselfe and his Successors received the Keyes in his owne Right but to this end to benefit the Church of which he was made Pastor But I keepe in my Consideration still and I would have this considered whether it be ever read in any Classicke Author That to receive a thing in the Person of another or sustaining the Person of another is onely meant finally to receive it that is to his good and not in his Right I should thinke he that receives any thing in the Person of another receives it indeed to his good and to his use but in his right too And that the primary and formall right is not in the receiver but in him whose person he sustaines while he receives it A man purchases Land and takes possession of it by an Attourney I hope the †Non est idem possidere alieno Nomine possidere Nam possidet cujus nomine possidetur Procurator aliena rei praestat Ministerium L. Quod meo 18. in Princ. H. de acquir Possess Celsus Attourney being the hand to receive it Instrumentally and no more shall take nor Vse nor right from the Purchaser A Man marries a Wife by a * Quando Matrimonium fit per Procuratorem Procurator est tantùm Conditio sine quâ non Sanch. de matrim L. 〈◊〉 Dispat 11. q. 4. Nu. 28. p. 128. Proxy This is not unusuall among great Persons But I hope he that hath the Proxy and receives the woman with the Ceremonies of Mariage in the Others Name must also leave her to be the Others Wife who gave him power to receive her for him This stumbling-blocke then is nothing and in my Consideration it stands still That the Church in Generall by the hands of the Apostles and their Successors received the Keyes and all Power signified by them and by the assistance of Gods Spirit may be able to use them but still in and by the same hands and perhaps to open and shut in some things infallibly when the Pope and a Generall Councell too forgetting both her and her Rule the Scripture are to seek how to turne these Keyes in their wards The third Particular I Consider is Suppose in the whole Catholike Church Militant an absolute Infallibility in the Prime Foundations of Faith absolutely necessary to Salvation and that this Power of not erring so is not * Non omnia illa que tradit Ecclesia sub Desinitione judiciali i. in Concilio sunt de Necessitate Salutis credenda sed illa duntaxat quae sic tradit concurrente Universali totius Ecclesiae consensu implicitè vel explicitè verè vel interpretativè Gerson Tract de Declaratione veritatum quae credenda sunt c. §. 4. par 1. p. 414. communicable to a Generall Councell which represents it but that the Councell is subject to errour This supposition doth not onely preserve that w ch you desire in the Church an Infallibility but it †Possit tamen contingere quòd quamvis Generale Concilium definiret aliquid contra Fidem Ecclesia Dei non exponeretur periculo Quia possit contingere quòd congregati in Concilio Generali essent pauci viles tam in re quà m in hominum reputatione respectu illorum quâ—… ad illud Concilium Generale minimè convenissent Et tunc illorum levitèr Error exâ—…irparetur per multitndinem meliorum sapientiorum famosiorum illis Quibut etiam multitudo simplicium adhaereret magis c. Och. Dial. P. 3. l. 3. c. 13. meets w th all inconveniences w ch usually have done and daily do perplexe the Church And here is still a Remedy for all things For if Private respects if * Many of these were potent at Ariminum and Seleucia Bandies in a Faction if power and favour of some parties if weaknesse of them which have the mannaging if any unfit mixture of State Councels if any departure from the Rule of the Word of God if any thing else sway and wrench the Councell the Whole a Determinationibus quae à Concilio vel Pontisice Summo siunt super iis dubitationibus quae substantiam sidci concernunt necessariò â—…redendum est dum Vniversalis Ecclesia non reclamet Fr. Pic. Mirand Theor. 8. Church upon evidence found in expresse Scripture or demonstration of this miscariage hath power to represent her selfe in another Body or Councell and to take order for what was amisse either practised or concluded So here is a meanes without any infringing any lawfull Authority of the Church to preserve or reduce unity and yet grant as I did and as the b Artic. 21. Church of England doth That a Generall Councell may erre And this course the Church heretofore took for she did cal and represent her self in a new Councell and define against the Heretical Conclusions of the former as in the case at Ariminum and the second of Ephesus is evident and in other Councels named by †Bel. L. 2. de Concil c 16. §. Tertio Concililium sine Papâ Bellarmine Now the Church is never more cunningly abused then when men out of this Truth that she may erre infer this falshood that she is not to be Obeyed For it will never follow She may erre Therefore She may not Govern For he that sayes Obey them which have the Rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your soules a Heb. 13. 17. Heb. 13. Commands Obedience and expresly ascribes Rule to the Church And this is not only a Pastorall Power to teach and direct but a Praetorian also to Controll and Censure too where Errors
or Crimes are against Points Fundamentall or of great Consequence Els S. Paul would not have given the Rule for Excommunication 1 Cor. 5. Nor Christ 1 Cor. 5. 5. himselfe have put the man that will not heare and Obey the Church into the place and condition of an Ethnick and a Publican as he doth S. Mat. 18. And Salomon's S Mat. 18. 17. Rule is generall and he hath it twice My Son forsake not the teaching or instruction of thy Mother Now this is either spoken and meant of a naturall Mother And her Prov. 18. Uid S. Aug. 2. Conf. e. 3. and Prov. 6. 20. Eccluâ—… 3. 3. Prov. 15. 20. Authority over her Children is confirmed Ecclus. 3. And the foole will be upon him that despiseth her Prov. 15 Or'tis extended also to our Mystiâ—…all and Spirituall Mother the Church And so the Geneva b For sake not thy Mothers instruction that is the Teaching of the Church where in the faithfull are begotten by the incorruptible seed of Gods Word Annot. in Prov 1. 8. Note upon the Place expresses it And I cannot but incline to this Opinion Because the Blessings which accompany this Oâ—…edience are so many and great as that they are not like to be the fruits of Obedience to a Naturall Mother onely as Salomon expresses them all Prov. * Prov. 6. 21 6. And in all this here 's no Exception of the Mothers erring For Mater errans an erring Mother looses neither the right nor the power of a Mother by her error And I marvell what Sonne should shew reverence or Obedience if no Mother that hath erred might exact it 'T is true the Sonne is not to follow his Mothers error or his Mother into Error But 't is true too 't is a grievous crime in a Sonne to cast off all obedience to his Mother because at some time or in some things she hath fallen into error And howsoever this Consideration meetes with this Inconvenience as well as the rest For suppose as I said in the whole Catholike Militant Church an absolute Infallibility in the prime Foundations of Faith absolutely necessary to Salvation And then though the Mother Church Provinciall or Nationall may erre yet if the Grand-Mother the whole Vniversall Church cannot in these necessary things all remaines safe and all Occasions of Disobedience taken from the possibility of the Churches erring are quite taken away Nor is this Mother lesse to be valued by her Children because in some smaller things age had filled her face fuller of wrinkles For where 't is said that Christ makes to himselfe a Church without spot or wrinkle Eph. 5. That is not understood of the Ephes. 5. 27. Church Militant but of the Church Triumphant * In id progrediuntur Pelagiani ut dicant vitam Iustorum in hoe seculo nullum omnino habere peccatum ex his Ecclesiam Christi in hac mortalitate perfici ut sit omnino sine maculâ rugâ Quasi non sit Christi Ecclesia quae in toto terrarum orbe clamat ad Deum Dimitte nobis deâ—…ita nostra c. S. Aug. L. de Haeresibus Haer. 88. And to maintaine the contrary is a Branch of the spreading Heresy of Pelagianisme Nor is the Church on earth any frâ—…er from wrinkles in Doctrine and Discipline then she is from Spots in Life and Conversation The next thing I consider is Suppose a Generall Councell infallible in all things which are of Faith If it prove not so but that an Error in the Faith be concluded the same erring Opinion that makes it thinke it selfe infallible makes the Error of it seeme irrevocable And when Truth which lay hid shall be brought to light the Church who was lulled asleepe by the opinion of Infallibility is left open to all manner of Distractions as it appeares at this day And that a Councel may erre besides al other instances which are not few appeares by that Error of the Councell of a Sess. 13. Constance And one Instance is enough to overthrow a Generall be it a Councell b S. Matth. 26. Christ instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Blood in both Kinde 1 Cor. 11. 23. To breake Christs Institution is a damnable Error and so confessed by c Returne of Vntruths vpon Mr. Ieweil Ar. 2. untruth 49. Stapleton The Councel is bold and defines peremptorily That to communicate in both kindes is not necessary with a Non obstante to the Institution of Christ. Consider now with me Is this an Error or not d 4. De Eucharist c. 26. Bellarmine and Stapleton and you too say 't is not because to receive under both kindes is not by Divine Right No no sure For it was not Christs e Bellarm. ibid. §. Vicesimo proferunt Precept but his Example Why but I had thought Christs Institution of a Sacrament had beene more then his Example only and as binding for the Necessaries of a Sacrament the Matter and Forme †And now lately in a Catechisme printedat Paris 1637. without the Authors Name 't is twice affirmed thus The Institution of a Sacrament is of it selfe a Command Conference 14. p. 244. And againe p. 260. Institution is a Precept as a Precept Therefore speake out and deny it to bee Christs Institution or els grant with Stapleton It is a damnable Error to goe against it If you can prove that Christs Institution is not as binding to us as a Precept which you shall never be able take the Precept with it g S. Matth. 26. 1 Cor. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Liturg. S. Chrysost. Drinke ye All of this which though you shift as you can yet you can never make it other then it is A binding Precept But Bellarmine hath yet one better Devise then this to save the Councell He saith it is a meere Calumny and that the Councell hath no such thing That the Non obstante hath no reference to Receiving under both kindes but to the time of receiving it after Supper in which the Councell saith the Custome of the Church is to be observed Non obstante notwithstanding Christs Example How foule Bellarmine is in this must appeare by the Words of the Councell which are these * Licet Christus post Coenam instituerit suis Discipulis administraverit sub utrâque specie Panis Uini hoc venerabile Sacramentum tamen hoc Non obstante non debet confici post Coenam nec recipi nifi a jejunis Here Bellarmine stayes and goes no farther but the Councell goes on Et similitèr quòd licèt in Primitivâ Ecclesiâ Sacramenta reciperentur sub utrâque Specie à fidelibus tamen haec Consuetudo ut à Laicis sub Specie Panis tantum suscipiatur habenda est pro Lege quam non licet reprobare Et asserere hanc esse illicitam est Erroneum Et pertinacitèr asserentes sunt arcendi tanquam Haretici Sess. 13. Though
and Bishops And in this Councell he condemned Peter Lombard and in him his Opinion about the Incarnation And therefore of necessity either Pope Alexander erred and that in Cathedrâ as Pope in Condemning him Or Pope Innocentius in restoring him The truth is Pope Alexander had more of Alexander the Great then of S. Peter in him And being accustomed to warlike Imployments he understood not that which Peter Lombard had written about this Mystery And so He and his Learned Assistants Condemned him unjustly And whereas you professe * Apud A. C. p. 68. after That you hold nothing against your Conscience I must ever wonder much how that can be true since you hold this of the Pope's Infallibility especially as being Propheticall in the Conclusion If this be true why doe you not lay all your strength together all of your whole Society and make this one Proposition evident For all Controversies about matters of Faith are ended and without any great trouble to the Christian World if you can but make this one Proposition good That the Pope is an Infallible Iudge Till then this shame will follow you infallibly and eternally That you should make the Pope a meere man Principium Fidei a Principle or Authour of Faith and make the mouth of him whom you call Christ's Vicar sole Iudge both of Christ's Word be it never so manifest and of his Church be she never so Learned and carefull of his Truth And for Conclusion of this Point I would faine know since this had beene so plaine so easie a way either to prevent all Divisions about the Faith or to end all Controversies did they arise why this briefe but most necessary Proposition The Bishop of Rome cannot erre in his Iudiciall Determinations concerning the Faith is not to be found either in Letter or sense in any Scripture in any Councell or in any Father of the Church for the full space of a thousand yeares and more after Christ For had this Proposition been true and then received in the Church how weake were all the Primitive Fathers to prescribe so many Rules and Cautions for avoydance of Heresie as Tertullian and Vincentius Lirinensis and others do and to indure such hard Conflicts as they did and with so many various Haereticks To see Christendome so rent and torne by some distempered Councels as that of Ariminum the second of Ephesus and others Nay to see the whole world almost become Arrian to the amazement of it selfe And yet all this time not so much as call in this Necessary Assistance of the Pope and let the world know That the Bishop of Rome was infallible that so in his Decision all differences might cease For either the Fathers of the Church Greeke as well as Latine knew this Proposition to be true That the Pope cannot Erre Iudicially in matters belonging to the Faith or they knew it not If you say they knew it not you charge them with a base and unworthy Ignorance no wayes like to over-cloud such and so many Learned men in a Matter so Necessary and of such infinite use to Christendome If you say they knew it and durst not deliver this Truth how can you charge them which durst die for Christ with such Cowardise towards his Church And if you say they knew it and with-held it from the Church you lay a most unjust Load upon those Charitable Soules which loved Christ too well to imprison any Truth but likely to make or keepe peace in his Church Catholike over the world But certainly as no Divine of worth did then dreame of any such Infallibility in Him so is it a meere dreame or worse of those Moderne Divines who affirme it now a The wilde Extent of the Popes Infallibility and Jurisdiction is a Mistake These are the Words of a Great Romane Catholike uttered to my selfe But I will spare his Name because he is living and I will not draw your Envy upon him And as b Puto quòd ipsi etiam rideant quum hoc audiunt tamen nifi hoc dicant quod erabescant si dicant non habent omninò quod dicant Sed quid ad nos Nâ—…ini invidemus Legant nobis hoc de Scripturis Sanctis credimus S. August de Vnit. Eccl. c. 17. S. Augustine somtimes spake of the Donatists and their absurd limiting the whole Christian Church to Africa onely so may I truly say of the Romanists confining all Christianity to the Romane Doctrine governed by the Pope's Infallibility I verily perswade my selfe That even the Jesuites themselves laugh at this And yet unlesse they say this which they cannot but blush while they say they have nothing at all to say But what 's this to us we envy no man If the Pope's Decision bee infallible Legant Let them read it to us out of the Holy Scripture and wee 'l believe it In the meane time take this with you that most certaine it is That the Pope hath no Infallibility to attend his Cathedrall Iudgement in Things belonging to the Faith For first besides the silence of Impartiall Antiquity Diverse c Papa non solùm Errore Personali sed Errore Iudiciali potest errare in Materia Fidei Almain L. de Author Eccles. c. 10. of your Owne confesse it yea and proove it too by sundry Instances Secondly there is a great Question among the Learned both Schoole-men and Controversers Whether the Pope comming to bee an Hereticke may bee Deposed And 't is learnedly disputed by d L. 2. de Rom. Font c. 30. Bellarmine The Opinions are different For the e Si sit à Fide de vius Dist. 40. Can. Si Papa Canon-Law saies expresly He may be judged and deposed by the Church in Case of Heresie †Iure Divino Papatu privatus est c. Io. de Turrecrem L. 4. Par. 2. c. 20. Et Bellar. L. 2. de Re. Pent. c. 30. Io. de Turrecremata is of Opinion That the Pope is to be deposed by the Church so soone as he becomes an Hereticke though as yet not a manifest one Because he is already deprived by Divine Right And recites another opinion That the Pope cannot be deposed though be fall into secret or manifest Heresie * Papa factus Hareticus non est ipso facte vel jure Divino vel humano depositus sed deponendus Cajet Tract de Author Papa Concilii c. 20. Cajetan thinkes that the Pope cannot be deposed but for a manifest Heresie and that then he is not deposed ipso facto but must be deposed by the Church †Papa Hareticus manifestus per se desinit esse Papa Caput c. Et tum potest ab Ecclesiâ Iudicari puniri Bellar. L. 2. de Rom. Pont. c. 30. §. Est ergo quinta Bellarmines owne Opinion is That if the Pope become a manifest Hereticke he presently ceases to be Pope and Head of the Church and may then be Iudged and
is contrary to the Holy Word of God And so likewise Bishop Ridley Nay Bishop Ridley addes yet farther and speakes so fully to this Point as I thinke no man can adde to his Expression And 't is well if some Protestants except not against it Both you and I saith d Apud Fox ibid p. 1598. he agree in this That in the Sacrament is the very true and naturall Body and Blood of Christ even that which was borne of the Virgin Marv which ascended into Heaven which sits on the right hand of God the Father which shall come from thence to judge the quicke and the dead Onely we differ in modo in the way and manner of Being We confesse all one thing to be in the Sacrament and dissent in the Manner of Being there I confesse Christ's Naturall Body to bee in the Sacrament by Spirit and Grace c. You make a grosser kinde of Being inclosing a naturall Body under the shape and forme of Bread and Wine So farre and more Bishop Ridley And a Apud Fox ibid. p. 1703. Archbishop Cranmer confesses that he was indeed of another Opinion and inclining to that of Zuinglius till Bishop Ridley convinced his Iudgement and setled him in this Point And for b Tantùm de modo quastio est c. Et facessat calumnia auferri Christum à Coenà suà c. Calv. L. 4. Inst. c. 17. §. 31. Veritatem Dei in quâ acquiescere tutò licet sine controversia amplectar Pronunâ—…i it Ille Carnem suam esse Anima mea cibum Sanguinem esse potum Talibus alimentis animam Illi meam pascendum offero In S. Coena jubet me sub Symbolis Panis Vini Corpus Sanguinem suum sumere manducare bibere Nihil dubito quin Ipse Verè porrigat ego recipiam Calv ibid. §. 32. Calvine he comes no whit short of these against the Calumnie of the Romanists on that behalfe Now after all this with what face can A. C. say as he doth That Protestants deny or doubt of the true and reall Presence of Christ in the Sacrament I cannot well tell or am unwilling to utter Fiftly whereas 't is added by A. C. That in this present case there is no perill of any damnable Heresie Pun. 5. A. C. p. 66. Schisme or any other Sinne in resolving to live and die in the Romane Church That 's not so neither For he that lives in the Romane Church with such a Resolution is presumed to believe as that Church believes And he that doth so I will not say is as guilty but guilty he is more or lesse of the Schisme which that Church first caused by her Corruptions and now continues by them and her power together And of all her Damnable Opinions too in point of Misbeliefe though perhaps A. C. will not have them called Heresies unlesse they have beene condemned in some Generall Councell And of all other sinnes also which the Doctrine and Misbeliefe of that Church leads him into And marke it I pray For 't is one thing to live in a Schismaticall Church and not Communicate with it in the Schisme or in any false Worship that attends it For so Elias lived among the Ten Tribes and was not Schismaticall 3. Reg. 17. And after him Elizaus 4. Reg. 3. Reg. 17 4. Reg. 3. 3. But then neither of them either countenanced the Schisme or worshipped the Calves in Dan or in Bethel And so also beside these Prophets did those Thousands live in a Schismaticall Church yet never bowed their knee to Baal 3. Reg. 19. But 't is 3. Reg. 19. 18. quite another thing to live in a Schismaticall Church and Communicate with it in the Schisme and in all the Superstitions and Corruptions which that Church teaches nay to live and die in them For certainly here no man can so live in a Schismaticall Church but if he be of capacity enough and understand it he must needs be a Formall Schismatick or an Involved One if he understand it not And in this case the Church of Rome is either farre worse or more cruell then the Church of Israel even under Ahab and Jezabel was The Synagogue indeed was corrupted a long time and in a great degree But I do not finde that this Doctrine You must sacrifice in the high places Or this You may not go and worship at the one Altar in Ierusalem was either taught by the Priests or maintained by the Prophets or enjoyned the people by the Sanedrim Nay can you shew me when any Iew living there devontly according to the Law was ever punished for omitting the One of these or doing the Other But the Church of Rome hath solemnly decreed her Errours And erring hath yet decreed withall That she cannot erre And imposed upon Learned men disputed and improbable Opinions Transubstantiation Purgatorie and Forbearance of the Cup in the blessed Eucharist even against the expresse Command of our Saviour and that for Articles of Faith And to keepe off Disobedience what ever the Corruption be she hath bound up her Decrees upon paine of Excommunication and all that followes upon it Nay this is not enough unlesse the fagot be kindled to light them the way This then may be enough for us to leave Rome though the old Prophet forsooke not Israel 3. Reg. 13. And therefore in this present case there 's perill great perill of 3. Reg. 13. 11. damnable both Schisme and Herefie and other sinne by living and dying in the Romane Faith tainted with so many superstitions as at this day it is and their Tyrannie to boot So that here I may answer A. C. just as * Petilianus dixit Venite ad Ecclesiam populi ausugite Traditores ita Orthâ—…doxos tum appellavit si cum iisdem perire non vulus Nam ut facile cognoscatis quod ipsi sunt rci de fide nostra optimè judicant Ego illorum infectos baptizo Illi meos quod absit recipiunt baptizatos quae omnino non facerent si in Baptismo nostro culpas aliquas agnovissâ—…nt Videte ergo quod damus quam sanctum sit quod destiuere metuit Sacrilegus Inimicus S. August respondet Sic approbamâ—…s in Haâ—…reticis Baptismum non Haercticorum sed Christi sicut in Fornicatoribus Idololatrâ—… Veneficis c. approbamus Baptismum non corum sed Christi Omnes enim isti inter quos Haerctici sunt sicut dicit Apostolus Regnum Dei non possidebunt c. S. August L. 2. cont Lit. Petiliani c. 108. S. Augustine answered Petilian the Donatist in the fore-named case of Baptisme For when Petilian pleaded the Concession of his Adversaries That Baptisme as the Donatists administred it was good and lawfull and thence inferred just as the Iesuite doth against me that it was better for men to joyne with his Congregation then with the Church S. Augustine answers We do indeed approve among Hâ—…reticks Baptisme
Contrary to his Conscience Presupposing it granted that the Church of Rome erres only in not Fundamentals and such Errours not Damnable which is absolutely and clearly denyed by D. White To this A. C. sayes nothing but that D. VVhite did not give this Answer A. C. p. 67. at the Conference I was not present at the Conference betweene them so to that I can say nothing as a witnesse But I thinke all that knew D. White will believe his affirmation as soone as the Iesuites To say no more And whereas A. C. referres to the Relation of the Conference betweene D. White and M. Fisher A. C. p. 67. most true it is there * A. C. in his relation of that Conference p. 26. D. VVhite is charged to have made that Answer twise But all this rests upon the credit of A. C. only For †For so 't is said in the Title-page by A. C. he is said to have made that Relation too as well as this And against his Credit I must engage D. Whites who hath avowed another Answer as a §. 37. Nu. 1. NUM 8. before is set downe And since A. C. relates to that Conference which it seemes hee makes some good account of I shall here once for all take occasion to assure the Reader That most of the Points of Moment in that Conference with D. VVhite are repeated againe and againe and urged in this Conference or the Relation of A. C. and are here answered by me For instance In the Relation of the first Conference the Iesuite takes on him to prove 1 the Vnwritten VVord of God out of 2. Thes. 2. pag. 15. And so he doth in the Relation of this Conference with me pag. 50. In the first he stands upon it That the Protestants 2 upon their Principles cannot hold that all Fundamentall points of Faith are contained in the Creed pag. 19. And so he doth in this pag. 46. In the first he would faine through 3 M. Roger's sides wound the Church of England as if shee were unsetled in the Article of Christ's Descent into Hell pag 21 And he endeavours the same in this pag. 46. In the first he is very earnest to prove That the Schisme was made by the Protestants pag. 23. And he is as earnest for 4 it in this pag. 55. In the first he layes it for a Ground That Corruption of Manners is no just Cause of separation 5 from Faith or Church pag. 24. And the same Ground he layes in this pag. 55. In the first he will have it That the 6 Holy Ghost gives continuall and Infallible Assistance to the Church pag. 24. And just so will he have it in this p 53. In the first he makes much adoe about the Errig of the 7 Greeke Church page 28. And as much makes he in this page 44. In the first he makes a great noyse about the 8 place in S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans c. page 18. and 24. And so doth hee here also page 45. In the first he would make his Proselytes believe That 9 he and his Cause have mighty advantage by that Sentence of S. Bernard 'T is intolerable Pride And that of S. Augustine 'T is insolent madnesse to oppose the Doctrine or Practice of the Catholike Church page 25. And twise he is at the same Art in this page 56. and. 73. In the first he 10 tels us That * Postquam discessionem a toto mundo facere coacti sumus Calv. Epist. 141. Calvin confesses That in the Reformation there was a Departure from the whole world page 25. And though I conceive Calvine spake this but of the Roman world and of no Uoluntary but a forced Departure and wrote this to Melancthon to worke Vnity among the Reformers not any way to blast the Reformation Yet we must heare of it againe in this page 56. But over and above the rest one Place with his owne glosse upon 11 it pleases him extremely 'T is out of S. Athanasius his Creed That whosoever doth not hold it entire that is saith he in all Points and Inviolate that is saith hee in the true unchanged and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the Pastors of his Catholike Church without doubt he shall perish everlastingly This he hath almost verbatim in the first page 20. And in the Epistle of the Publisher of that Relation to the Reader under the Name of VV. I. and then againe the very same in this if not with some more disadvantage to himselfe page 70. And perhaps had I leasure to search after them more Points then these Now the Reasons which mooved mee to set downe these Particulars thus distinctly are two The One that whereas the * In the begining of the Conference set out by A. C. Iesuite affirmes that in a second Conference all the speech was about Particular matters and little or nothing about the maine and great generall Point of a Continuall Infallible Uisible Church in which that Lady required satisfaction and that therefore this third Conference was held It may hereby appeare that the most materiall both Points and Proofes are upon the matter the very same in all the three Conferences though little bee related of the second Conference by A. C. as appeares in the Preface of the Publisher VV. I. to the Reader So this tends to nothing but Ostentation and shew The Other is that Whereas these men boast so much of their Cause and their Ability to defend it It cannot but appeare by this and their handling of other Points in Divinity that they labour indeed but no otherwise then like an Horse in a Mill round about in the same Circle no farther at night then at noone The same thing over and over againe from Tu es Petrus to Pasce oves from thou art Peter to Do thou feed my Sheepe And backe againe the same way F. The Lady asked Whether she might be saved in the Protestant Faith Vpon my soule said the Bishop you may Vpon my soule said I there is but one saving Faith and that is the Romane B. So it seems I was confident for the Faith professed § 38 in the Church of England els I would not have taken the salvation of another upon my soule And sure I had reason of this my Confidence For to believe the Scripture and the Creeds to believe these in the sense of the Ancient Primitive Church To receive the foure great Generall Councels so much magnified by Antiquity To believe all Points of Doctrine generally received as Fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Faith in which to live and die cannot but give salvation And therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my soule upon that Faith Besides in all the Points of Doctrine that are contioverted betweene us I would faine see any one Point maintained by the Church of England that can be proved
punished till the Uitiosity of it be consumed Purgatorio igne So the Translation renders it but in the Originall it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is in a fire that sleeps not which for ought appeares may bee understood of a Fire that is eternall whereas the fire assigned to Purgatory shall cease Besides S. Gregory sayes plainly The Soule cannot suffer by fire but in the Body and the Body cannot be with it till the Resurrection Therefore e S. Greg. Orat 3. de Resurrect Christi hee must needs speak of a fire after the Resurrection which must bee either the Fire of the Generall Conflagration or Hell Purgatory he cannot meane VVhere according to the Romish Tenet the Soule suffers without the Body The truth is Divers of the Ancient especially Greekes which were a little too much acquainted with Plato's Schoole †Noâ—… expedit philosophari alâ—…s c. Orig. L. 6 cont Celsuâ—… philosophized and disputed upon this and some other Points with much Obscurity and as little Certainty So upon the whole matter in the fourth and fist hundred yeare you see here 's none that constantly and perspicuously affirme it And as for S. Augustine he a Constat Animas pâ—…rgari post banc vitam S. Augustin Lib. 21. Civ Dâ—…i c. 24. vide said and b Justorum flagella non iâ—…nt post mortem sed definunt Et Anima mix in Paradisum c. S. Aug. Contr. Foeliciaâ—… c. 15. Et duo tantum loca esse c. S. Aug. Ser. 10. ae verb. Apost c. 15. Et L. 21. de Civ Dei c. 16 fine Negat nisi sit Ignis ille in Consummatione saculi unsaid it and c Quari potest c. S. Aug. in Enchirid. c. 69. Forsitan verum est c. S. Aug. L. 21. de Civ Dei c. 26. Quid S. Paulus senserit 1 Cor. 3. de Igne illo malo intelligentiores dâ—…ctiores audire S. Aug. L. de Fide Oper. c. 16. at the last left it doubtfull which had it then been received as a Point of Faith he durst not have done Indeed then in S. Gregory the Great 's time in the beginning of the sixt Age Purgatory was growne to some perfection For S. d S. Greg. in Psal. 3. Poenitentialem princ Gregory himself is at Scio 't was but at Puto a little before I know that some shall bee Expiated in Purgatory flames And therefore I will easily give Bellarmine all that follow For after this time Purgatory was found too warme a businesse to be suffered to Coole again And in the after Ages more were frighted then led by proof into the Beliefe of it Now by this we see also That it could not be a Tradition For then we might have traced it by the smoke to the Apostles times Indeed Bellarm. would have it such a Tradition For hee tels us out of S. Quod Vniversa tenet Ecclesia nec Conciliis institutum sed semper retentum est non nisi Authoritate Apostolicâ traditum rectissimè creditur S. Aug. L. 4. de Bapt. cont Donatist c. 24 Nec ad Summâ—…s Pontifices referri potest Addit Melch. Canus L. 3 de Locis c. 4. prin Augustine That that is rightly believed to be delivered by Apostolicall Authority which the whole Church holds and hath ever held and yet is not Instituted by any Councell And hee addes That Purgatory is such a Tradition so Constantly held in the whole Church Greeke and Latine And †Non invenimus initium hujus dogmatis sed omnes veteres Graeci Latini c. Bellar. L. 1. de Purg. c. 11. §. De tertio mode that wee doe not finde any beginning of this Beliefe Where I shall take the boldnesse to Observe these three things First that the Doctrine of Purgatory was not held ever in the whole Catholike Church of Christ. And this appeares by the proofes of * L. 1. de Purg. c. 6. Bellarmine himselfe produced and I have †§. 38. N. 16. before examined For there 't is manifest that scarce two Fathers directly affirme the beliefe of Purgatory for full six hundred yeares after Christ. Therefore Purgatory is no Matter of Faith nor to be believed as descending from Apostolicall Authority by S. Augustine's Rule Secondly that we can finde a beginning of this Doctrine and a Beginner too namely Origen And neither Bellarmine nor any other is able to shew any one Father of the Church that said it before him Therefore Purgatory is not to bee believed as a Doctrine delivered by Apostolicall Authority by Bellarmines owne rule For it hath a Beginning Thirdly I observe too that Bellarmine cannot well tell where to lay the foundation of Purgatory that it may be safe For first hee labours to found it upon Scripture To that end a Bellar. L. 1. de Purgat c. 3. 4 hee brings no fewer then ten places out of the Old Testament and nine out of the New to proove it And yet fearing lest these places bee strained as indeed they are and so too weake to bee laid under such a vast pile of Building as Purgatory is b De tertio modo perspicuum est c. Bel. L. 1 de Purgat c. 11. §. Tertiò ex Verbo c. §. De tertio modo c. he flies to unwritten Tradition And by this Word of God unwritten he sayes 't is manifest that the Doctrine of Purgatory was delivered by the Apostles Sure if Nineteene places of Scripture cannot proove it I would be loth to fly to Tradition And if Recourse to Tradition bee necessary then certainly those places of Scripture made not the proofe they were brought for And once more how can Bâ—… say here That woe finde not the Bâ—… 〈◊〉 of this Article when hee had said before that hee had found it in 〈◊〉 places of Scripture For if in these places hee could not finde the beginning of the Doctrine c Pâ—…y hee is fâ—…se while be sayes he did And if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it there then hee is faâ—…e here in saying we finde no beginning of it And for all his Bâ—… of Oâ—…s 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 Greeke 〈◊〉 Pâ—… Yet Aâ—… a Câ—… 〈◊〉 honestly and plainly and 〈◊〉 us That 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 Writers is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 Greeks And he addes That 〈◊〉 Purgatory And what now I pray after all this may I not so much as deliberately 〈◊〉 of this because 't is now Dâ—… and but now in a manner and thus No sure So A. C. 〈◊〉 you Doubt No. For when you had fooled the 〈◊〉 of Sâ—… back to Rome there you either made him say or â—…d it for him â—…for in Prinâ—… and under his Name That since 〈◊〉 defined by the Châ—… a man 〈◊〉 much bound to believe there is a Purgatory as that there is a Trinity 〈◊〉 Persâ—… in the Godhead How farre
worke for my pen it seemes A. C. will not say 't is a worke b And yet before in this Conference apud A. C. pag. 42. the Iesuitè whom he defends hath said it expresly That all those points are Fundamentall which are necessary to salvation for his But he tels us * A. C. p. 72. 'T is to be learned of the One Holy Catholike Apostolike alwaies Visible and Infallible Romane Church Titles enough given to the Romane Church and I wish she deserved them all for then we should have peace But 't is farre otherwise One she is as a particular Church but not The One. Holy she would be counted but the world may see if it will not blinde it self of what value Holinesse is in that Court and Countrey Catholike she is not in any sense of the word for she is not the c Romana Ecclesia particularis Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pout c. 4. §. 1. Catholica autem est illae quae diffusa est per universum Orbem S. Cyril Hieroâ—…ol Cetech 18. Universall and so not Catholike in extent Nor is shee sound in Doctrine and in things which come neare upon the Foundation too so not a Catholica enim dicitur Ecclesia illa quae universalitèr docet sine ullo dâ—…ctu vel differentia dogmatum S. Cyril Hierolol Catech 18. Unde Augustinus subscripsit se Episcopum Catholicae Ecclesiae Hipponiregicusis L. 1. de Act is cum Foelice Maniâ—…h c. 20. Ft l 2. c. 1. Et Catholica Alexandrinorum Soz. l. 1. Htst. c. 9. Et l 2. c. 3. And so every particular Church is or may be called Catholike and that truly so long as it teaches Catholike Doctrine In which sense the Particular Romane Church was called Catholike so long as it taught all and onely those things to be De Fide which the Catholike Church it selfe maintain'd But now Rome doth not so Catholike in Beliese Nor is she the Prime Mother Church of Christianity b Supra §. 35. Nu 9. Other Churches beside the Romane are called Matres and Originales Ecelesiae as in Tertul. de praescrip advers hares c. 21. Et Ecclesiae Hiâ—…rosolymitana quae aliarum omnium Mater 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Theodoret. L. 5 Hist. Eccl. c. 9. ex Lâ—…bello Synodico à Concil Constantinop 2. transmisse ad Concilium sub Damaso tum Romae coactum Et Constantinopolitana Ecclesiae dicitur omnium aliarum Capus Cod. L 1. Tit. 2. Leg. 24. That is not simply of all Churches but of all in that Patriarchate And so Rome is the Head of all in the Romane Patriarchate Ierusalem was that and so not Catholike as a Fountaine or Originall or as the Head or Root of the Catholike And because many Romanists Object here though A. C. doth it not that S. Cyprian called the c 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae Catholike 〈◊〉 Matricem agnâ—…rent tencrent S. Cyp. L. 4. Epist. 8. Romane Church the Root and Matrix of the Catholike Church of Christ I hope I shall have leave to explaine that difficult place also First then S. Cyprian names not Rome That stands onely in the Margiu and was placed there as his particular judgement led d Edit Basiliens 1530. And Simanca also applies this speech of S. Cyprian to Rome ' Tis. 24. §. 17. And to also Pâ—…lius upon this place of S 〈◊〉 But they wrong him him that set out S. Cyprian Secondly the true story of that Epistle and that which led S. Cyprian into this Expression was this Cornelius then chosen Pope expostulates with S. Cyprian That his Letters to Rome were directed onely to the Clergy there and not to Him and takes it ill as if S. Cyprian had thereby seemed to disapprove his Election S. Cyprian replies That by reason of the Schisme moov'd then by Novatian it was uncertaine in Africk which of the Two had the more Canonicall right to the Sea of Rome and that therfore he nam'd him not But yet that during this uncertainty he exhorted all that sailed thither ut Ecclesiae Catholicae Radicem Matricem agnoscerent tenerent That in all their carriage they should acknowledge and so hold themselves unto the Vnity of the Catholike Church which is the Root and Matrix of it and the only way to avoid participation in the Schisme And that this must be S. Cyprian's meaning I shall thus proove First because This could not be his meaning or Intention That the Sea of Rome was the Root or Matrix of the Catholike Church For if hee had told them so hee had left them in as great or greater difficulty then hee found them For there was then an Open and an Apparent Schisme in the Church of Rome Two Bishops Cornelius and Novatian Two Congregations which respectively attended and observed them So that a perplexed Question must needs have divided their thoughts which of these Two had beene that Root and Matrix of the Catholike Church Therefore had S. Cyprian meant to pronounce Rome the Root and Matrix of the Catholike Church hee would never have done it at such a time when Rome it selfe was in Schisme Whereas in the other sense the Counsell is good and plaine Namely That they should hold themselves to the Vnity and Communion of the Catholike Church which is the Roote of it And then necessarily they were to suspend their Communion there till they saw how the Catholike Church did incline to approove or disapproove the Election of the One or the Other And thus S. Cyprian frees himselfe to Cornelius from the very least Touch of Schisme Secondly Because this sense comes home to * Baron Annal. 254. Numb 64. where hee cites this Epistle Baronius For hee affirmes That S. Cyprian and his Colleagues the African Bishops did Communionem suspendere suspend their Communion untill they heard by Caldonius and Fortunatus whose the undoubted right was So it seems S. Cyprian gave that Counsell to these Travellers which himselfe followed For if Rome during the Schisme and in so great uncertainty had yet beene Radix Ecclesiae Catholicae Root of the Catholike Church of Christ I would faine know how S. Cyprian so great and famous an Assertor of the Churches Unity durst once so much as thinke of suspending Communion with her Thirdly Because this sense will be plaine also by other Passages out of other Epistles of S. Cyprian For writing to Iubaianus an Africane Bishop against the Novatians who then infested those parts and durst Rebaptise Catholike Christians he saith thus †Nos autem qui Ecclesiae Unius Caput Radâ—…cem tenemus pro certo scimus credimus nihil extra Ecclesiam licere Baptismatis quod est unum Caput nos esse ubi ipse Baptizatus priùs fuerat quando Divinae Vnitatis Rationem veritateÌ„ tâ—…bat S. Cypr. ad Iubain Epist. 73. Edit Pamel But we who hold the head and Root of One Church doe know for
Errour and Superstition which sutes not with my own fancy But how can this possibly be since I submit my judgement in all humility to the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church and upon new and necessary doubts to the judgement of a lawfull and free Generall Councell And this I do from my very heart and do abhorre in matters of Religion that my own or any private mans fancy should take any place and least of all against things generally held or practised by the Vniversall Church which to oppose in such things is certainly as d S. Aug. Epist. â—…8 〈◊〉 5. S. Augustine cals it Insolentissimae insaniae an Attempt of most insolent madnesse But those things which the Church of England charges upon the Romane Party to be superstitious and erroneous are not held or practised in or by the universall Church generally either for time or place And now I would have A. C. consider how justly all this may be turned upon himselfe For he hath nothing to pretend that there are not grosse Superstitions and Errours in the Romane Perswasion unlesse by intolerable pride he will make himselfe and his Party Iudge of Controversies as in effect he doth for he will be judged by none but the Pope and a Councell of his ordering or unlesse he will take Authority to free from Superstition and Errour whatsoever sutes with his fancy though it be even Superstition it selfe and run crosse to what hath been generally held in the Catholike Church of Christ Yea though to do so be in S. Augustine's judgement most insolent madnesse And A. C. spake in this most properly when he called it taking of Authority For the Bishop and Church of Rome have in this particular of judging Controversies indeed taken that Authority to themselves which neither Christ nor his Church Catholike did ever give them Here the Conference ended with this Conclusion And as I hope God hath given that Lady mercy so I heartily pray that he will be pleased to give all of you a Light of his Truth and a Love to it that you may no longer be made Instruments of the Pope's boundlesse Ambition and this most unchristian * §. 33. Nu 6. braine-sick device That in all Controversies of the Faith he is Infallible and that by way of Inspiration and Prophecie in the Conclusion which he gives To the due Consideration of which and God's mercy in Christ I leave you To this Conclusion of the Conference between me and the Iesuite A. C. sayes not much But that which he doth say is either the selfe same which he hath said already or els is quite mistaken in the businesse That which he hath said already is this That in matters A. C. p. 73. of Faith we are to submit our judgements to such Doctors and Pastors as by Visible Continuall Succession without change brought the Faith downe from Christ and his Apostles to these our dayes and shall so carrie it to the end of the world And that this Succession is not found in any other Church differing in Doctrine from the Romane Church Now to this I have given a full Answer a §. 57. Nu. 3 4. already and therefore will not trouble the Reader with needlesse and troublesome repetition Then he brings certaine places of Scripture to prove the Pope's Infallibility But to all these places I have likewise answered b §. 25. Nu. 5. before And therefore A. C. needed not to repeat them againe as if they had been unanswerable One Place of Scripture onely A. C. had not urged before either for proofe of this Continued Visible Succession or for the Pope's Infallibility Nor doth A. C. distinctly A. C. p. 73. set down by which of the two hee will prove it The Place is c Epheâ—… 4. 11. Ephes. 4. Christ ascending gave some to be Apostles some Prophets some Euangelists some Pastors and Teachers c. for the edification of the Church Now if he do mean to prove the Pope's Infallibility by this place in his Pastorall Iudgement Truly I doe not see how this can possibly be Collected thence d Pontificatus Summus disertè positus est ab Apostolo in illis verbis Eph. 4. 11. in illis clarioribus 1. Cor. 12. 28. Ipse posuit in Ecclesia primùm Apostolos c. Bellar. L. 1. de Ro. Pont. c. 1. §. Respondeo Pontificatum And he gives an excellent reason for it Siquidem summa potestas Ecclesiastica non solùm data est Petro sedetiam aliis Apostolis Ibid. So belike by this Reason the Apostle doth clearely expresse the Popedome because all the rest of the Apostles had as much Ecclesiasticall Power as S. Peter had But then Bellarmine would salve it up with this That this Power is given Petro ut Ordinarie Pastori cui succederetur aliis verò tanquam Delegatis quibus non succederetur Ibid. but this is meere Begging of the Question and will never be granted unto him And in the meane time we have his absolute Confession for the other That the Supreme Ecclesiasticall Power was not in S. Peter alone but in all the Apostles Christ gave some to be Apostles for the Edification of his Church Therefore S. Peter and all his Successours are infallible in their Pastorall Iudgment And if he meane to prove the Continued Visible Succession which he saith is to he found in no Church but the Romane there 's a little more shew but to no more purpose A little more shew Because it is added †Eph. 4. 13. verse 13. That the Apostles and Prophets c. shall continue at their worke and that must needs be by succession till we all meet in Vnity and perfection of Christ. But to no more purpose For t is not said that they or their Successors should Continue at this their worke in a Personall uninterrupted Succession in any one Particular Church Romane or other Nor ever will A. C. bee able to proove that such a Succession is necessary in any one particular place And if he could yet his owne words tell us the Personall Succession is nothing if the Faith be not brought downe without change from Christ and his Apostles to this day and so to the end of the world Now here 's a peece of cunning too The Faith A. C. p. 73. brought down unchanged For if A. C. meane by the Faith the Creed and that in Letter 't is true the Church of Rome hath received and brought downe the Faith unchanged from Christ and his Apostles to these our dayes But then t is apparently false That no Church differing from the Romane in Doctrine hath kept that Faith unchanged and that by a visible and continued Succession For the Greek Church differs from the Romane in Doctrine and yet hath so kept that Faith unchanged But if he meane by the Faith unchanged and yet brought down in a continuall visible Succession not only the Creed in Letter but in Sense
too And not that only but all the Doctrinall Points about the Faith which have beene Determined in all such Councels as the present Church of Rome allowes * Aud so also Bellarm. Sexta nota est Conspiratio in Doctrinâ cum Ecclesiâ Antiquâ L. 4 de Notis Eccle. c. 9. §. 1. as most certainly he doth so meane and 't is the Controversie betweene us then 't is most certaine and most apparent to any understanding man that reads Antiquity with an impartiall eye that a Visible Continuall Succession of Doctors and Pastors have not brought downe the Faith in this sense from Christ and his Apostles to these dayes of ours in the Romane Church And that I may not bee thought to say and not to prove I give Instance And with this that if A. C. or any Iesuite can prove That by a Visible Continued Succession from Christ and his Apostles to this day either Transubstantiation in the Eucharist Or the Eucharist in one kinde Or Purgatory Or worship of Images Or the Intention of the Priest of Necessity in Baptisme Or the Power of the Pope over a Generall Councell Or his Infallibility with or without it Or his power to Depose Princes Or the Publike Prayers of the Church in an unknowne tongue with divers other Points have beene so taught I for my part will give the Cause Beside for Succession in the generall I shall say this 'T is a great happinesse where it may be had Visible and Continued and a great Conquest over the Mutability of this present world But I do not finde any one of the Ancient Fathers that makes Locall Personall Visible and Continued Succession a Necessary Signe or Mark of the true Church in any one place And where Vincentius a Vin. Lir. cont Har. c. 4. Lirinensis cals for Antiquity Vniversality and Consent as great Notes of Truth hee hath not one word of Succession And for that great Place in * Hâc Ordinatione Successione ea quae est ab Apostolis in Ecclesiâ Traditio veritasis praeconiatio pervenit usque ad nos Et est plenissima haec Ostensio Vnam eandem Vivificatricem fidem esse quae in Ecclesiâ ab Apostolis usque nunc sit conservata tradita in veritate Iren. L. 3. Advers Haer. c. 3. Irenaeus where that Ancient Father reckons the Succession of the Bishops of Rome to Eleutherius who sate in his time and saith That this is a most full and ample Proofe or Ostension Vivificatricem Fidem that the Living and Life-giving Faith is from the Apostles to this day Conserved and delivered in Truth And of which Place †Per hanc Successionem confundi omnes Haereticos Bellarmin L. 4. aé Notis Eccles c. 8. §. 1. There 's no such word round in Irenaeus Bellarmine boasts so much Most manifest it is in the very same Place that * Testimonium his perhâ—…bent quae sunt in Asiâ Ecclesiae Omnes qui usque adhuc Successerunt Polycâ—…po Iren. I. 3 advers Haere c. 3. Constat omnem Doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis Matricibus Originalibus Fidei conspiret Veritati doputandam Tettul de praescript advers Haeret. c. 21. Ecclesia posteriores non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguiinitate Doctrinae Ibid c 32. Ecclesia non in Parietibus consistit c. Ecclesia autem illic erat ubi fides verae erat S. Hieron in Psal. 133. Irenaeus stood as much upon the Succession of the Churches then in Asia and of Smyrna though that no prime Apostolicall Church where Polycarpus sate Bishop as of the Succession at Rome By which it is most manifest that it is not Personall Succession only and that tyed to one Place that the Fathers meant but they taught that the Faith was delivered over by Succession in some places or other still to their present time And so doubtlesse shall be till Time be no more I say The Faith But not every Opinion true or false that in tract of time shall cleave to the Faith And to the Faith it selfe and all its Fundamentals we can shew as good and full a Succession as you And we pretend no otherwise to it then you do save that We take in the Greeks which you do not Only we reject your grosse superstitions to which you can shew no Succession from the Apostles either at Rome or elsewhere much less any one uninterrupted And therfore he might have held his peace that says It is evident that the Roman Catholike Church only hath had a Constant and uninterrupted Succession of Pastors and Doctors and Tradition of Doctrine from Age to Age. For most evident it is That the Tradition of Doctrine hath received both Addition and Alteration since the first five hundred yeares in which †Antiqua Ecclesia primis quingentis Annis vera Ecclesia fuit proinde ApostolicaÌ„ DoctrinaÌ„ retinuit Bel. L. 4. de Notis Eccles c. 9 §. 1. Bellarmine confesses and B. Iewell maintains the Churches Doctrine was Apostolicall And once more before I leave this Point Most evident it is That the Succession which the Fathers meant is not tyed to Place or Person but 't is tyed to the Verity of Doctrine For so a Ad hanc formam provocabuntur ab illis Ecclestis quae lic èt nullum ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis Authorem suum proferunt ut multò posteriores quae denique quotidie instituuntur tamen in eadem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate Doctrine â—…ertul de praescript c. 32. Tertullian expresly Beside the order of Bishops running downe in Succession from the beginning there is required Consanguinitas Doctrinae that the Doctrine be allyed in blood to that of Christ and his Apostles So that if the Doctrine bee no kinne to Christ all the Succession become strangers what nearnesse soever they pretend And * Illis Presbyteris obediendum est qui cum Episeopatus Successione Charisma acâ—…perunt Ueritatis Iren. Lib. 4. cap. 43. Irenaeus speaks plainer then he We are to obey those Presbyters which together with the Succession of their Bishopricks have received Charisma Veritatis the gift of truth Now Stapleton being prest hard with these two Authorities first a Successio nec Locorum tantum est nec personarum sed etiam vera sana Doâ—…rinae Stapl. â—…elect Controver 1. q. 4 A. 2. Notab 1. Confesses expresly That Succession as it is a Note of the true Church is neither a Succession in place only nor of Persons only but it must be of true and sound Doctrine also And had hee stayed here no man could have said better But then he saw well he must quit his great Note of the Church-Succession That he durst not doe Therefore he beginnes to cast about how hee may answer these Fathers and yet maintaine Succession Secondly therefore he tels us That that which these Fathers say do nothing weaken Succession
but that it shall still be a maiâ—… Note of the true Church and in that sense which he would have it And his Reason is b Quia Doctrina Sana est ab ipsa verà legiâ—…ima Successione indivâ—…lsa Stapl. Ibid. Bâ—…se sound Doctrine is indivisible from true and Lawfull Succession Where you shall see this great Clarke for so hee was not able to stand to himselfe when he hath forsaken Truth For 't is not long after that he tels us That the People are led along and judge the Doctrine by the Pastors But when the Church comes to examine she judges the Pastors by their Doctrine And this c Nam è Pastore Lâ—…s fieri potâ—…st Stap. ibid. Nâ—…tab 4. he sayes is necessary Because a Man may become of a Pastor a Wolfe Now then let Stapleton take his choise For either a Pastor in this Succession cannot become a Wolfe and then this Proposition's false Or els if he can then sound Doctrine is not inseparable from true and Legitimate succession And then the former Proposition's false as indeed it is For that a good Pastour may become a Wolfe is no newes in the Ancient Story of the Church in which are registred the Change of many a Vincent Lit. cont Har. c. 23. 24. Great men into Hereticks I spare their Names And since Iudas chang'd from an Apostle to a Divell S. Ioh. 6. 't is no wonder to see S. Ioh. 6. 70. others change from Shepheards into Wolves I doubt the Church is not empty of such Changelings at this day Yea but Stapleton will helpe all this For he adds That suppose the Pastors do forsake true Doctrine yet Succession shall still be a true Note of the Church Yet not every Succession but that which is Legitimate and true Well And what is that Why b Legitima autem est illorum Pastorum qui Vnitatem tenent Fidem Stap. ibid. Notab 5. That Succession is lawfull which is of those Pastors which hold entire the Unity and the Faith Where you may see this Samson's haire cut off againe For at his word I 'le take him And if that onely be a Legitimate Succession which holds the Vnity and the Faith entire then the Succession of Pastors in the Romane Church is illegitimate For they have had c In their owne Chronologer Onuphrius there are Thirty acknowledged more Schismes among them then any other Church Therefore they have not kept the unity of the Church And they have brought in grosse Superstition Therefore they have not kept the Faith â—…ntire Now if A. C. have any minde to it he may do well to helpe Stapleton out of these bryars upon which he hath torne his Credit and I doubt his Conscience too to uphold the Corruptions of the Sea of Rome As for that in which he is quite mistaken it is his Inference which is this That I should therefore consider carefully Whether it be not more Christian and lesse braine-sicke to think that the Pope being S Peter's Successour with a Generall Councell should be Iudge of Controversies c. And that the Pastorall Iudgement of him should be accounted Infallible rather then to make every man that can read the Scripture Interpreter of Scripture Decider of Controversies Controller of Generall Councels and Judge of his Judges Or to have no Judge at all of Controversies of Faith but permit every man to believe as he list As if there were no Infallible certainty of Faith to be expected on earth which were instead of one saving Faith to induce a Babilonicall Confusion of so many faiths as fancies Or no true Christian Faith at all From which Evils Sweet Jesus deliver us I have Considered of this very carefully But this Inference supposes that which I never granted nor any Protestant that I yet know Namely That if I deny the Pope to be Iudge of Controversies I must by and by either leave this supreme Judicature in the hands and power of every private man that can but read the Scripture or els allow no Iudge 〈◊〉 and so let in all manner of Confusion No God forbid I should grant either For I have expâ—…esly * §. 26. Nu. 1. declared That the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church and a Lawfull and free Generall Councell determining according to these is Iudge of Controversies And that no private man whatsoever is or can be Iudge of these Therefore A. C. is quite mistaken and I pray God it be not wilfully to beguile poore Ladiâ—… and other their weake adherents with seeming to say somewhat I say quite mistaken to inferre that I am either for a private Iudge or for no Iudge for I utterly disclaime both and that as much if not more then he or any Romanist who ever he be But these things in this passage I cannot swallow First That the Pope with a Generall Councell should be Iudge for the Pope in ancient Councels never had more power then any the other Patriarchs Precedency perhaps for Orders sake and other respects he had Nor had the Pope any Negative voice against the rest in point of difference †Patrum Avorum nostrorum tempore pauci audebant dicere Papam esse supra Concilium Aeneas Sylvius sen Pius 2. L. 1. de Gestis Concil Basil. Et illâ—… imprimis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…nes qui aliquo numero sâ—… Concilio subjiciâ—…nt Ibid. in fascic rerum Expetend fol. 5. 〈◊〉 autem Papam esse non solùm supra Concilium Generale sed Vniversam Ecclesiam est propositio ferè de Fide Bellar. L. 2. de Concil c. 17. 〈◊〉 1. No nor was he held superiour to the Councell Therefore the ancient Church never accounted or admitted him a Iudge no net with a Councell much lesse without it Secondly it will not downe with me that his Pastorall Iudgement should be Infallible especially since some of them have been as * Quum hoc tempore nullus sit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fâ—…nd est qui sacras Litâ—…ras dâ—…dicerit quâ—… fronte aliquis eorum docere audebit quod non didicerit Arnulph in Concil Rheâ—…nsi Nam câ—… constet plures eorum adeò illiteratos esse ut Grammaticam penitùs ignorarent qui sit ut Sacras Literas interpretari possint Alphons à Castro L. 1. advers Hâ—… c. 4. versùs medium Edit Paris 1534. For both that at Antwerpe An. 1556. and that at Paris An. 15â—… 〈◊〉 beene in Purgatorie And such an Ignorant as these was Pope Iohn the foure and twentieth Platiâ—… 〈◊〉 Vitae ejus Et § 33. Nu. 6. Ignorant as many that can but read the Scripture Thirdly I cannot admit this neither though hee doe most cunningly thereby abuse his Readers That any thing hath been said by me out of which it can justly be inferred That there 's no Infallible certainty of Faith to bee expected on earth For there is most Infallible certainty of it that is of the Foundations of it in Scripture and the Creeds And 't is so clearely delivered there as that it needs no Iudge at all to sit upon it for the Articles themselves And so entire a Body is this one Faith in it selfe as that the †Resolutio Occham est Quod nec tota Ecclesia net Concilium Generale nec Summus Pontifex potest facere Articulum quod non fuit Articulus Sed Ecclesia bene determinat de Propositionibus Catholicis de quibus erat dubium c. Ia. Almain in 3 Sent. D. 25. q. unicâ Dub. 3. Sicut ad ea quae spectant ad Fidem nostram nequaquam â—…x voluntate humana dependent non potest Summus Pontifex nec Ecclesia ae Assertione non verâ veram nec de non falsâ falsam facere it à non potest de non Catholicâ Catholicam facere nec de non Haretica Hareticam Et ideo non potest â—…ovum Articulum facere nec Articulum Fidei tollere Quoniam sicut Veritates Catholicae absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae ex naturâ rei sunt immutabiles immutabilitèr verae it à sunt immutabilitèr Catholica reputandae Similitèr sicut Hareses absque omni reprobatione damnatione sunt falsae it à absque omni reprobatione sunt Haereses reputanda c. Et posteà Patet ergo quod nulla Veritas est Catholica ex approbatione Ecclesiae vel Papae Gab. Biel. in 3. Sâ—…nt Dist. 25. q. unica Art 3. Dub. 3. versùs sinem Whole Church much lesse the Pope hath not power to adde one Article to it nor leave to detract any one the least from it But when Controversies arise about the meaning of the Articles or Superstructures upon them which are Doctrines about the Faith not the Faith it selfe unlesse where they be immediate Consequences then both in and of these a a §. 26. Nu. 1. Lawfull and free Generall Councell determining according to Scripture is the best Iudge on earth But then suppose uncertainty in some of these superstructures it can never be thence concluded That there is no Infallible certainty of the Faith it selfe But 't is time to end especially for me that have so Many Things of Weight lying upon me and disabling me from these Polemicke Discourses beside the Burden of sixty five yeares complete which drawes on apace to the period set by the Prophet David Psal. 90. and to the Psal. 90. 10. Time that I must goe and give God and Christ an Account of the Talent committed to my Charge In which God for Christ Iesus sake be mercifull to me who knowes that however in many Weaknesses yet I have with a faithfull and single heart bound to his free Grace for it laboured the Meeting the Blessed Meeting of Truth and Peace in his Church and Psal. 85. 10. which God in his own good time will I hope effect To Him be all Honour and Praise for ever Amen FINIS
esso non potest hos esse Libros Canonicos Wal. Doct. fid l. 2. a. 2. c. 20. cui subesse non potest falsum into which no falshood can come but by a Divine Testimony This Testimony is absolute in Scripture it selfe delivered by the Apostles for the Word of God and so sealed to our Soules by the operation of the Holy Ghost That which makes way for this as an b Canus Loc. l. 2 c. 8. facit Ecclesiam Causam sine quanon Introduction and outward motive is the Tradition of the present Church but that neither simply Divine nor sufficient alone into which we may resolve our Faith but only as is †§. 16. before expressed And now to come close to the Particular The time was before this miserable Rent in the Church of Christ which I thinke no true Christian can looke upon but with a bleeding heart that you and Wee were all of One Beliefe That beliefe was tainted in tract and corruption of times very deepely A Division was made yet so that both Parts held the Creed and other Common Principles of Beliefe Of these this was one of the greatest †Inter omnes penè constat aut certè id quod satis est inter me illos cum quibus nunc agitur convenit hoc c. Sic in aliâ Causá cont Manichaos S. Aug. L. de Mor. Eccl. Cath. c. 4. That the Scripture is the VVord of God For our beliefe of all things contained in it depends upon it Since this Division there hath beene nothing done by us to discredit this Principle Nay We have given it all honour and ascribed unto it more sufficiency even to the containing of all things necessary to salvation with * Vin. Lir. cont Hares c. 2. Satis super que enough and more then enough which your selves have not done do not And for begetting and setling a Beliefe of this Principle we goe the same way with you and a better besides The same way with you Because we allow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first induceing Motive to embrace this Principle onely we cannot goe so farre in this way as you to make the present Tradition alwayes an Infallible VVord of God unwritten For this is to goe so farre in till you be out of the way For Tradition is but a Lane in the Church it hath an end not only to receive us in but another after to let us out into more open and richer ground And We go a better way then you Because after we are moved and prepared and induced by Tradition we resolve our Faith into that Written Word and God delivering it in which we finde materially though not in Termes the very Tradition that led us thither And so we are sure by Divine Authority that we are in the way because at the end we find the way proved And doe what can be done you can never settle the Faith of man about this great Principle till you rise to greater assurance then the Present Church alone can give And therefore once againe to that known place of S. Augustine * Contr. Epist. Fund c. 5. The words of the Father are Nisi commoveret Vnlesse the Authority of the Church mooved me but not alone but with other Motives eâ—…se it were not commovere to move together And the other Motives are Resolvers though this be Leader Now since we goe the same way with you so farre as you goe right and a better way then you where you go wrong we need not admit any other Word of God then We doc And this ought to remaine as a Presupposed Principle among all Christians and not so much as come into this Question about the sufficiency of Scripture betweene you and us But you say that F. From this the Lady called us and desiring to heare VVhether the Bishop would grant the Romane Church to be the Right Church The B. granted That it was B One occasion which mooved Tertullian to § 20 write his Booke de Praescript adversùs Haereticos was That he * Pamel in Summar Lib Uiaens Disputationibus â—…ihil ant parum profici saw little or no Profit come by Disputations Sure the Ground was the same then and now It was not to deny that Disputation is an Opening of the Vnderstanding a sifting out of Truth it was not to affirme that any such Disquisition is in and of it selfe unprofitable If it had S. Stephen a Acts 6 9. would not have disputed with the Cyrenians nor S. Paul with the b Acts. 9. 29. Grecians first and then with the Iewes c Acts 19. 17. and all Commers No sure it was some Abuse in the Disputants that frustrated the good of the Disputation And one Abuse in the Disputants is a Resolution to hold their own though it â—…e by unworthy means and disparagement d Debilitaetur generosa indoles conjecta in argutias Sen. Aep 48. of truth And so I finde it here For as it is true that this Question was asked so it is altogether false that it was asked in this * Here A. C. hath nothing to say but that the Iesuite did not affirme That the Lady askâ—…d this Question in this or any other precise forme No why the words preceding are the Iesuites own Therefore if these were not the Ladies words he wrongs her not I him forme or so Answâ—…red There is a great deale of Difference especially as Romanists handle the Question of the Church between The Church and A Church and there is some betvveene a True Church and a Right Church vvhich is the vvord you use but no man else that I knovv I am sure not I. For The Church may import in our Language The only true Church and perhaps as some of you seeme to make it the Root and the Ground of the Catholike And this I never did grant of the Romane Church nor ever meane to doe But A Church can imply no more then that it is a member of the Whole And this I never did nor ever will deny if it fall not absolutely away from Christ. That it is a True Church I granted also but not a Right as you impose upon me For Ens and Verum Being and True are convertible one with another and every thing that hath a Being is truly that Being which it is in truth of Substance But this word Right is not so used but is referd more properly to perfection in Conditions And in this sense every thing that hath a true and reall Being is not by and by Right in the Conâ—…itions of it A man that is most dishonest and unworthy the name a very Thiefe if you will is a True man in the verity of his Essence as he is a Creature endued with Reason for this none can steale from him nor he from himselfe but Death But he is not therefore a Right or an upright man And a Church that is