testimonies which also he alleageth out of many bookes both of the old and newe Testament to prooue that the Church should bee spread ouer all the kingdomes and nations of the world He answereth the places of Scriptures which they alleaged to prooue that the world at sundrie times had so fallen away from God that a verie fewe true worshippers remained and why might not they be now as those fewe He sheweth that there be innumerable testimonies to prooue that the open bad did communicate together with the good in the Sacraments and that the good were fewe in comparison of the bad so mixed with them of which after he hath cited many he commeth at the last as it were to a conclusion that al other things remooued hee would haue them shewe their Church out of the holie Scriptures and from the places which are not darke And then it followeth Quisquis ergo huic epistolae responderese praeparat ante denunciationem mihi dicat illi codices dominicos ignibus tradiderunt illi simulacris gentium sacrificauerūt illi nobis iniquissimam persecutionem fecerunt et vos eis in omnibus consensistis Breuiter enim respondeo quod saepè respondi aut falsa dicitis aut si vera sunt non ad frumenta Christi sed ad eorum paleam pertinent ista quae dicitis non inde perit ecclesia quae optimo iudicio ventilata istorum omnium separatione purgabitur That is to say Whosoeuer therefore prepareth himselfe to answere this Epistle let him before the denouncing say vnto me such deliuered the Lords bookes to the fire such sacrificed to the Idols of the Gentiles such haue persecuted vs most vniustlie and you haue consented vnto them in all things For I answer brieflie which I haue often answered either ye speake things which are false or else if they bee true that which ye speake pertaineth not to the corne of Christ but to the chaffe thereof the Church doth not perish thereby which winnowed with most perfect iudgement shall bee purged by the separation of that same chaffe He addeth Ego ipsam ecclesiā requiro vbi sit quae audiendo verba Christi faciendo aedificat super petram audiendo faciendo tolerat eos qui audiendo non faciendo aedificant super arenam Vbi sit triticum quod inter zizania crescit vsque ad messem non quid fecerint vel faciant ipsa zizania Vbi sit proxima Christi in medio filiarum malarum sicut lilium in medio spinarum non quid fecerint vel faciunt ipsae spinae Vbi sunt pisces boni qui donec ad littus perueniant tolerant pisces malos pariter irretitos non fecerint aut faciant ipsi pisces mali That is to say I seeke the Church where she is which in hearing the words of Christ and doing them doth build vpon a rocke and which hearing and doing doth tolerate those which hearing and not dooing doo build vppon the sand Where that wheate is which groweth vp among the tares vntill the haruest come not what the tares haue done or what they doo Where that spouse of Christ is in the middest of the euill daughters as the lillie among the thornes not what the thornes haue done or what they doo Where the good fishes be which vntill they come vnto the shore doo tolerate the euill fishes held in the same nette together not what the euill fishes haue done or what they doo Thus haue I laide open that the Church in olde time was full of open wicked men both of ministers and people That the Donatists vnder the colour of zeale and seueritie against sinne did separate themselues affirming that all were polluted and fallen from the couenant which did communicate in the worship of god and Sacraments with such notorious euill men All men may see by that which I haue noted that the Donatists did maintaine this their opinion with the same Scriptures and argumēts that the Brownists doe maintaine it withall nowe And receiued the same answers to confute them which we make nowe to confute the Brownists This was the maine point of Donatisme and as it were the pith substance therof it is one of the foure chiefe pillers of Brownisme Yea but now the Brownists doe separate themselues from a worship which is Idolatrous full of blasphemies and abhominations The Donatists did rend themselues from an holy and true worship Indeede where the worship is Idolatrous and blasphemous a man is to separate himselfe But there are many and great corruptions before it come to that for it is the true worship of God where the foundation is layd and standeth sure If there be timber Hay and stubble built vpon the foundation the fault is great such things are not to bee approued But yet there is Gods true worship And now to come to the verie poynt of the matter I doe affirme wil stand to iustifie that there were greater corruptions in the worship of God euen in those Churches from which the Donatists did seperate themselues than be at this day in the worship of the Church of England So that if Brownisme be any thing to be excused in that the Donatisme may as iustly therein be defended For if wee consider matters which concerne doctrine what can any man shew so corrupt in this our Church as in the publike worship to pray for the soules of the dead and to offer oblations for the dead This corruption was generall in the Church then yea long before the dayes of Augustine as it appeareth in Cyprian and by Tertullian which was before him and nerer to the time of the Apostles who in his booke De Monogamia reasoning against second mariage for hee was fallen into that error woulde perswade any woman that had buried her husband not to marie againe because he being seperated from her in peace not diuorced she was to pray for his soule and yearely to offer oblation for him thus he writeth Et pro anima eius oret refrigerium interim ad postulet ei in prima resurrectione consortium offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius That is And let her pray for his soule and craue refreshing for him nowe in the meane time and his felowship in the first resurrection and let her offer yearely vpon the day of his departure It will bee said by some ignorant man that this was but the minde and practise of some few which were corrupt and superstitious I answere it was the practise of the Church in generall and the corruption so auncient that the same Tertullian in his booke De corona militis speaking of it certain other things saith they were obserued by tradition from the Apostles they were obserued so generally in the Churches and no scripture to warrant them These bee his wordes Oblationes pro defunctis annua die facimus Wee make oblations for the dead in the yeerely day The doctrine of Purgatory
and the doctrine of Free will were crept in also besides diuers other grosse errors which sundrie of the chiefe teachers held some in one poynt some in an other Touching Ceremonies not for order and comlynes but with signification the libertie was exceeding which men tooke and the corruption greeuous which was not espied but of few Tertullian for his time nameth these which he saith were receiued by tradition and had no scripture to warrant them first in baptisme hauing shewed what they professed and the thrée times dipping into the water hee addeth Inde suscepti lactis mellis concordiam pragustamus Exque ea die lauacro quotidiano per totam hebdomadam abstinemus That is Taken from thence hee meaneth from the water wee first taste the concord of milke and hony and from that day we abstaine from the dayly washing a whole weeke Die dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus vel de geniculis adorare Eadem immunitate a die paschae in Penticostem vsque gaudemus That is We account it an heynous matter to fast on the Lords day or to worship vpon the knees by the same freedome from Easter vnto Penticost we reioyce And by and by after hee saith Ad omnem progressum atque promotum ad omnem aditum exitū ad vestitū ad calciamentū ad lauacra ad mēsas ad lumina ad cubilia ad sedilia quacunque nos conuersatio exercet frontem crucis signaculo terimus That is At euerie setting forward and mouing at euerie comming to or going foorth at our appareling and putting on our shooes at washing at table at lighting the candle at bed at sitting whatsoeuer wee are busied about we weare our forehead with the signe of the Crosse These superstitious obseruations were crept into the Church and in the daies of Tertullian who liued not much more than two hundreth yeares after our Sauiour Christ receaued so generallie that hee saieth they were by tradition from the Apostles Augustine vnto Ianuarius complaineth that there was such a multitude of rites or ceremonies in the Church But what should I labour in this point If the Brownists will affirme that there be as great corruptions in the worship of the Church of England if we respect either doctrine or ceremonies as were in the Churches from which the Donatists did separate themselues they shall be conuinced of grosse ignorance And if they stand in it they shall shew themselues shameles let the reader in the meane time but looke vpon the Epistle of Master Beza before the new Testament and see what he affirmeth in this matter how corrupt the Churches were Then I conclude that the Donatists separating themselues from Churches more corrupt than the Churche of England in the worship of God as I dare stand to maintaine against them if they denie it may as well bee excused as the Brownists and so hetherto they bee euen bretheren with them or their naturall Children no difference to bee found at all And now touching the third and fourth pillars of Brownisme the Donatists cried out that the Churches had no true Ministers but that they were all false Prophets Iudasses persecutors of the iust generations of Traitors because as they saide they had their ordination from those that were such The Brownists with all their might lift vp their voices and call vs Baals Priests the marked seruants of Antichrist false Prophets seducers and such like because as they say we are ordeined by Antichristian Bishops which exercise a Discipline contrarie to the Discipline of Christ Here wee haue to consider of two things at once the Ministers and the Discipline let vs first see what the Donatists held against the Ministers This was the common voice among the Donatists O that matters might be disputed discussed and scanned But when by the commandement of the Emperour the conference should bee holden what miserable shiftes and delayes did they finde out And in the conference of the third day Chapt. 2. It is shewed that the Donatists did accuse them as Traitors and persecutors and that this saying had been vttered Indignum est vt in vnum conueniant filij Martyrum progenies traditorum It is an vnworthie thing that the sonnes of Martyres the generations of traitors should come together When Augustine had saide he was no traitor Cresconius the Donatist replieth Sed ille qui tradidit te creauit Fonte deducitur riuus caput membra sequuntur sano capite omne sanum est corpus si quid in hoc morbi vel vitij est omnia membra debilitat or iginem suam respicit quicquid in stirpe processit Non potest innocens esse qui sectam non sequitur innocentis But he that created thee plaied the Traitor the riuer or streame is deriued from the Fountaine and the members followe the head The head being sounde the whole bodie is sound and if there bee anie disease in it it weakeneth all the members It respecteth it owne originall whatsoeuer groweth out of the stock hee cannot bee innocent which followeth not the sect of the innocent These be the words of Cresconius the Donatist by which hee taketh vpon him to proue that Augustine and all the Pastors of the Churches had no true ordination were not true Ministers of Christ but the generations of traitors He vseth as we see thrée similitudes The first is to this effect as the riuer is deriued from the Fountaine and must néedes be such as it is so those that bée ordeined Ministers are like the streame deriued from the fountaine the ordeinors being trators Iudasses false prophets persecutors y e ordeined must néedes be such also The second is that the members doo followe the head He that ordeineth is the head the Ministers ordeined are the members If the head be infected the poyson of it goeth into the mēbers Thy ordeinor euen thy head was a traitor thou art then a traitor also The third similitude is from the stock and the branches that growe out of it such as the stock is such are the braunches that growe out of it But he that ordeined thée or created thée a Minister was a false Prophet therefore thou art a false prophet for hée is the stock out of which thou doost growe how canst thou but bee such as the roote out of which thou doost spring The Brownists handling this point to proue that we be no Ministers of Christ set foorth the matter thus your discent and pedegrée is in few degrées deriued from the Pope you being the Children of your Antichristian Bishops which are the creatures of the Pope who is the eldest sonne of Sathan and his vicar generall in earth whose image marke power and life you beare and together with him growe liue raigne stand and fall as the branches with the Trée This is the eloquence of the Brownists which differing in words containeth the same reasons that the Donatists did vse for in stead of the Fountaine and the streame
Rome is the true Church for that hath many spots I answere that we doo not take it that the spots doo make it a true Church but because there bee onely spottes and not fundamentall errors The foolish cauill here is that I assume that which I should prooue Doo I not prooue it by answering the vile and shameles slaunders of yours when ye affirme euerie spot in our Churches to be blasphemies and heresies and abominations and Egyptian sores You must prooue these your slaunders true and I will cease Now we come to the arguments which were set down at the first No Apocrypha is to be brought into the publike assemblies all read prayer is Apocripha Here you say I haue nothing to vtter and yet oppose against both proposicions to royle the doctrine with my feete least others should drink of it I sayd your proposition is false because the exposition of the scriptures by the preacher and the prayers of the preacher are not canonicall which your proposition doth exclude Your replie is that the Sermons and prayers of of the Preacher be the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces which ye mention in your proposition and so neither Canonicall nor Apocripha and so not excluded Touching the Paraphrase vpon the Psalmes in meeter I holde not Canonicall in some respects If you banish all writings that be not Canonicall then ye banish then Your answere is that it I will affirme them to be Apocrypha as ye say I cannot but doe you will prooue they are not to be brought into the publike assemblies Your proofes doe follow First no mans writings are giuen by the testimonie of Gods spirit whome alone we are to heare No mans writings are without errors and imperfections The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets If we might bring in mens writings then al mens writings which are agreeable to Gods word No mans writings carie that maiestie that the pen of the holy ghost No mans writings are authentike confirmed by signes and wonders The scripture is all sufficient al men must walk by that one rule To think there were not rules enough prescribed by the Lorde for his house is blasphemous and papisticall Then ye say the gifts to prophesie are not Apocryphall and so ye conclude your proposition that onely Gods word and the liuely graces of his holy spirite are to be offered vp vnto him in the publike assemblies Then touching your assumption I sayd I see not how our speech to God should be called Apocrypha Ye replie y t it answereth not you which do not holde an other mans writing to be our speech vnto God Finally because I said that Apocrypha is that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs yee say I haue ouerthrowen my selfe and cast out all read prayer in as much as I deny them to be Canonicall And so affirming that I haue not in both writings made one direct answer to this most firme proposition Onely the Canonicall scriptures and liuely voice of Gods own graces are to be brought into the publike assemblies for doctrine and prayers But mens writings are neither Canonicall nor the liuely voice of Gods owne graces Now master Greenwood hauing thus played the man in erecting as he supposeth so mighty a piller that cannot be shaken could content himself to go no further I might end here saith hee with this vaine man considering the whole matter is proued against him And all that solloweth but repetitions of the same cauills but that I must cleare my selfe of his vnconcionable slaunders Hee â—â—â—â—mphing thus fully what shall I doe now I aunswere first that hee is much deceiued and would deceiue others as it is written The deceiuers shall wax worse and worse deceiuing and being deceiued For like as one that among many Apples doth hide and sell one Crab so he among many true principles doth bring in one false conclusion which deceiueth his Schollers For if he did reason thus wee must heare onely the voice of Gods spirite therefore all things in the Church are to be tried by the voice of the spirit No mans writings are without errors and imperfections therefore meÌ„ cannot ground vpon them any further than they be consonant to the Canonicall scriptures The Church is builded vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets therfore our faith is to rest no further vpon the sayings and writings of men than they be prooued by the doctrine of the Apostles Prophets he should conclude a truth which is vnanswerable But now where master Greenwoods conclusioÌ„ is after this sorte therefore nothing but the Canonicall scriptures and the liuely voice of Gods graces is to bee brought into the publike assemblies he concludeth falsely as shall appeare For if nothing but the perfect rule it selfe is to bee brought into the Church If nothing done by man which hath errors in it is to haue place in the assemblies If nothing but eyther such or that which is the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces is to be vttered in the congregation then must bee tast foorth not onely al written prayers but also y e whole bible vnles it be in y e Hebrew Greeke with the Sermons and praiers of the Pastors For there is no translation of the Bible without errors and the bookes are thus farre mans writing respecting onely the translation And furthermore we decide not controuersies by any translation of the Bible but by the authentike copies of the Hebrew and Greek in one of which the olde testament is set downe by the Prophets in the other the new testameÌ„t by the Apostles So that your conclusion doth not shut out onely the Psalmes in méeter but the whole scriptures vnles you will be so bolde as to say that translations be without errors and so the perfect rule And now touching the second part will Master Greenwood bee so vnwise as to affirme that the errours in the Sermons and in the prayers of the Pastors bee the liuely voyce of Gods owne graces He will assuredly denie it for the graces of GOD all simple men know bring not foorth errors Then let him marke his conclusion no mens writings are without errours and imperfections therefore no mens writings are to be brought into the publike assemblie is not this conclusion as strong no translations of the Bible no Psalmes in meeter no Sermons nor Prayers of the Pastors are without errors and imperfections therfore none of these are to be brought into the publike assemblies Is there any so voide of sense that can not tast howe sower this Crabbe is which Maister Greenewood conueieth in among so many sweete Apples But he replieth further to confirme his matter by argument thus if anie mens writings may bee brought into the publike assemblies then al mens writings which are thought to be agreeable to Gods word may be brought in To prooue the consequence of this proposition he saith If God commaunde any to be brought in as being agreeable
A Plaine Declaration that our Brownists be full Donatists by comparing them together from point to point out of the writings of Augustine Also a replie to Master Greenwood touching read prayer wherein his grosse ignorance is detected which labouring to purge himselfe from former absurdities doth plunge himselfe deeper into the mire By George Gyffard Minister of Gods word in Maldon BY PEACE PLENTY BY WISDOME PEACE TO AT LONDON Printed for Toby Cooke dwelling at the Tygers head in Paules Churchyard 1590. TO THE RIGHT HOnorable Sir William Cecill Knight of the Garter Baron of Burghley Lord high Treasurer of England and Chauncellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Grace and peace I Published a Booke Right Honourable against the Brownists who complaine of hard dealing and not onlie they but others in that I haue termed them Donatists and charge them with sundrie foule matters And hauing now receiued from them an answer vnto one part of that my booke I haue also framed this replie In which I first set downe from point to point out of the writings of the holie Father Augustine with what Scriptures and arguments it was defended and so compare our mens writings and doings with the same They must for this chuse either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth and the churches were perished or else shewe some materiall points of Donatisme which they doo not hold And then in the latter part of this my booke I answer to that which is published now by them against read prayer As I was bold to present the former vnto your Honor so do I also humblie offer this presuming vpon your Honors fauourable acceptation And thus I beseech the Lord God to blesse and prosper your Honor. Amen To the Reader GOod Christian reader I published a booke against the Brownists whom I haue in the same termed the Donatists of England How farre of I was from purposing anie such thing at the first and how I was drawne into it afterward I haue in that former booke truly reported And for warrant of my doing before the Lord I had no doubt but that it should bee an acceptable seruice to Christ notwithstanding when I respect the waightines and necessitie of the worke I haue alwaies wished and do wish that some man of greater learning might deale against thē Neither as yet am I cast into any thoughts of doubting by the mislike or fault finding of some in all places which are no Brownists But I am rather thrust forward by beholding that weakenes of iudgement and want of vnderstanding not in a feaw touching the foulnes of Donatisme and by the sight of such nerenes of multitudes vnto the danger which before I coulde not suspect Now touching the faultes which are found which causeth the mislike they are partelie for the matter it selfe and partlie for the manner of dealing both in it as also towards the persons themselues against whome I write In the matter some haue found fault as though I should stand to cleere to iustifie al things not onlie in the Booke of Common praier but also in the calling and ordination of our Ministers and in our Church gouernement others affirme that I haue diminished the faults which are esteemed to be in these and made them lighter at the least by not reproouing them The first sort I cannot but meruaile at seeing I haue in that my former booke set downe expressie in these words that the matter in question betweene the Brownists and me is not about the controuersie in our Church as whether there be imperfections corruptions and faults in our Worship Ministerie and Church gouernement nor how many great or smal but whether there be such heinous enormities as destroy the verie life and being of a true Church and make an vtter diuorse from Christ I doo then lay open the state of this question so plainelie as I know not how to make it more plaine now vnles I should run through euerie particular which wee deale in which I thought to be needlesse but now I will a little stand vpon it They reckon Romish fasts Ember dayes Saincts eues and Lent Idoll feasts as Alhallowes Candlemas seuerall Ladie daies Saincts daies dedicating Churches vnto Saints Comminations Rogations and Purifications Tithes Offerings Mortuaries howsling the sick with the Sacrament absolution and blasphemous dirges and funerall Sermons ouer and for the dead Corrupt manner of administring the Sacraments the Font the crosse in Baptisme Baptisme by women gossippings blasphemous and hereticall collects These and certaine other haue they set downe to bee in the Booke not vnder the termes of faults blemishes and corruptions but as heresies blasphemies and abominations and that such as ouerturne the foundation of the Christian faith destroy the substance of Gods worship and take away the life and beeing of a true Church To this I haue answered that they be foule slaunderours liars false accusers shewing that our Church hath renounced in those former things that which is blasphemous and hereticall or so abominable as that it approacheth neerest to the destroying of the faith and holy worship of the Lord. As namelie the remission of sinnes and merite of eternall life by fasting which is the doctrine of the Romish church The worship and inuocation of Saints and Angels the power of expelling Diuels by the signe of the crosse and such like things which the papacie is full of but reiected by vs. If the Brownists in their replie against that I haue written shall prooue by the word of God that there be great corruptiōs in our praiers in our fasts in our keeping the Saints dayes in the Crosse and in manie other things which bee in our Church as in our Ministerie and Church gouernemēt And further if their proofes be neuer so clere strong from the Scriptures yet they answere not me at al nor touch the question or controuersie between them and me vnles they can prooue them to be such faults as destroy the worship of God ouerturne the foundation of the faith and take away the verie life and being of true Christianitie If I say they do not prooue them according as they haue set thē downe to bee blasphemies heresies abominations yea the verie worship and yoake of Antichrist the marke of the beast and his power I remaine vnanswered and they stand conuicted as liars slanderers and most wicked false accusers not of particular persons but of whole Churches For I shewed in expresse wordes that I doo not meddle at all in these questions whether there bee corruptions and faults in our Church condemned by Gods word whether they bee manie or fewe whether they bee small or great but onelie thus farre whether they bee such or so great as make our Churches Antichristian Here therefore I doo intreate the Christian Reader to fixe his eyes in reading my writings and theirs onelie vppon this one question whether there be in our Church any errors or faults that be found amentall Looke if
concerning read prayer peruse it throughlie and then iudge whether I haue charged him wrongfullie in any matter I do lament that many of our people which haue been hearers of the Gospell should be so ignorant as to suck in such dregs as he offereth Now to conclude there are two things which deceiue many which I desire thē to consider one is that they are caried away with many true and notable sentences of Scripture worthie principles which the Brownists set down not considering or not espying how they from them doo draw out false assumptions and thereupon cōclude that which is vntrue The other is that they looke not vpō that which followeth vppon their wordes by consequence but stand vpon this O they hold no such thing they haue wrong Master Greenwood crieth out that he doth not condēneal Churches he denieth not that the psalmes are to be sung to God he saith not that the regenerate do not sin he hath no such meaning he hath wrong But mark if I haue done him any wrong at all looke vpon his sayings and vpon that which must needes followe vpon them The other Brownists crie out of the like wrōgs Iudge not vntil both ye heare wherein they haue wrong and see mine answer If I haue charged them with matter which either their words doo not expresse or that followeth not from them by necessarie consequence let me then bee iudged rash and vncharitable FINIS That the Brownists are full Donatists NO Apostle no Prophet no Euangelist no true pastor or teacher can haue his owne name put vpon the Disciples which he gathereth but as they bee all gathered onely by Christes doctrine and vnto Christ alone according as it is written one is your Doctor euen Christ Matth. 23. so are they onely by his title called Christians But it hath béen the manner of olde and euen from the time of the Apostles in Gods Church when any wicked schisme or heresie hath sprung vp to call the scholers and followers by the names of the first masters of the same and chiefe leaders As of Montanus the Montanists of Nouatius the Nouatians of Arrius the Arrians of Pelagius the Pelagians of Donatus the Donatists of the Pope the Papists c. And who shall reprehend this as vaine or condemne it as a thing vniust seeing wee followe his example who saith to the Angell of the Church of Pergamus Reuel 2. Thou hast them which hold the doctrine of the Nicholaitanes Now there is a sect in England commonly called Brownists not because Browne was the first originall of it but for that he hath written and published bookes in maintenance and enlargement thereof and with more skill and learning than others which either as yet haue followed or gone before him Many men thinke that they bee sprung vp but of late whereas in very déede it is well knowne there was a Church of them in London 20. yeares past and one Bolton a principall doer therein whose fearefull end is not forgotten I haue termed them the Donatists of England How iustly and how charitablie and with what due consideration it standeth me now vpon to shewe least the ignoranter sort of such as somewhat fauour them should imagine that I haue iniuriouslie and falselie giuen them this odious title to worke their vniust discredite For Donatisme in olde time about twelue hundred yeares past was condemned as a detestable proud Schisme and heresie that began at Carthage in Aphrica and was vehementlie withstood by the faithfull Pastors and cut downe by the holie Scriptures as no learned godlie man will denie The holie Father Augustine was the chiefe that did ouerthrowe them as his writings which are extant answering to their writings at large doo declare Now my purpose at this time is to compare them together the Donatists and the Brownists from point to point out of the writings of Augustine If it fall out cléere and manifest that they agree together as euen as two peeces of cloath that are of the same wooll the same threed colour working breadth and that an Egge is no liker to an Egge than they be each to other I hope all that be sober minded will not blame me for giuing them the same title Their originall first of the Donatists I meane and how they cut off themselues is to bee noted set foorth which was this From the birth of our Sauiour Christ for the space of thrée hundred yeares more there were euer anon great and greeuous persecutions raised vp against the Church by the Romane Emperours vntill the Emperour Constantine the great imbraced the holie Gospell and gaue peace to the Christians In those daies of persecution such as through feare or otherwise did deliuer to the cruell persecutors either the bookes of the holie Scriptures that they might burne and deface them or the vessells appointed for holie vse in the publike assemblies that they might carrie them away or the names of the brethren that they might finde them out such I say were called traditores that is deliuerers or traitors There was a rumour that such offence had béen by some committed as no doubt it was by many Now as Augustine reporteth in his Psalme against the Donatists there came certaine Bishops from Numidia vnto Carthage a famous Citie in Aphrica to ordeine a Bishop and found Caecilianus alreadie ordeined and placed in the Seate then were they wroth that they could not ordeine They ioyned together and layd a crime vpon Caecilianus They say his ordeiner deliuered the holie bookes and was a traitor whereupon they will haue him reputed no Minister of Christ but the sonne of a traitor There was no assemblie of the learned Pastors for to iudge in this case according to Christes ordinance and discipline the accused and the accuser did not stand foorth for triall There were no witnesses produced to prooue the crime neither were matters scanned by the Scriptures But furor dolus tumultus that is furie deceipt and tumult did beare the sway as Augustine sheweth in the same his Psalm They assembled which were the accusers and Caecilianus is condemned being absent by Tigisitanus Secundus as hée sheweth in his first booke against Parmenian Chap. 3. and in his third booke against Cresconius Chap. 40. Now was there great stirre and deuision begun Donatus he steppeth foorth and requireth of the Emperour Constantine to haue Iudges not of Aphrica out beyond the seas to heare the crime which was to be obiected against Caecilianus The Emperour appointed that the matter should bee heard at Rome where Caecilianus was cléered and Donatus and his part receiuing repulse appealed accusing Meltiades then Bishop of Rome that he was also traditor as Augustine reporteth in his first booke against Parmenian Chapt. 5. and so they require to haue the cause heard by the Emperour vnto whom they had appealed where hauing also the repulse as false accusers they say y e Emperour was corrupted through fauour They made a
separation from Caecilianus and those that claue to him The deuision grewe greater and greater they had assemblies and Bishops on Donatus part in processe of time in great number They condemned not only the Church at Carthage and the neighbour Churches in Aphrica as guiltie therewith but all Churches through the world as wrapped together in the guiltines of those Churches of Aphrica They pronounced them all polluted vncleane abominable and vtterlie fallen from the Couenant of God through the pollution of such as had committed sacrilege and were not seperated They said there were no Ministers of Christ no Sacraments so no true Church among them but heapes of wicked polluted sacrilegious persons whose teachers were all generations of traitors Iudasses persecutors of Gods Saints and that as many as would bee saued must seperate themselues and ioyne with the pure selected companie of Donatus And for these respects they baptized again all such as fell vnto them as not being baptized before but polluted with a prophane washing Now through the shew of burning zeale and stiffe rigorous seueritie in condemning sinne and by the vehement outcries which they made that the discipline was not duely executed in as much as the prophane were mingled together in the assemblies with y e pure and no seperation made many of the people not well settled and grounded in the trueth were terrified and turned vnto them taking them to be most zealous holie men and the onlie true Church in earth and with excéeding bitternesse condemned all other as abominable Idolaters and cursed traytors whose worship God abhorred It was before the daies of Augustine that this sect began and in his time was greatlie spread And when he wrote that it was against all equitie to condemne as they did at the first the whole world for the sinne of Caecilianus because if he were guiltie yet the Churches farre off knew not so much but might rather iudge him cléere being cléered in iudgement They maintained the matter to prooue that there were no true flocks nor pastors after another sort and did affirme that as the Church of Carthage and the Churches elsewhere in Aphrica were fallen from God by the pollution of the sacrilege of Caecilianus and other so all other Churches in the world were destroyed by the like sacrileges committed in the daies of persecution by wicked men among them whose sinnes were open and knowne and no seperation made For thus speaketh Parmenian a Donatist Bishop as Augustine doth set it downe in his first booke against him and third Chapter Dicit etiam Parmenianus hinc probari consceleratum fuisse orbem terrarum criminibus traditionis aliorum sacrilegiorum quia cum multa talia fuerint tempore persecutionis admissa nulla propterea facta est in ipsis prouincijs separatio populorum That is Parmenian also saith that from hence it is prooued that the world hath been together made wicked or hainouslie polluted with the crimes of treason and of other sacrileges because when many such things were done in the time of persecution there was no seperation of the people made for the same in the Prouinces Marke well this saying of Parmenian the Donatist for it doth expressie set downe the ground of Donatisme The words of Petilian another Donatist Bishop to prooue all the Ministers of the Churches to be but successors of traitors as Augustine doth report them in his second booke against him Chapt. 8. are many I will onely recite the chiefe of them This Petilian hauing before saide that he which is baptized by one that is dead his washing doth profite him nothing then procéedeth to shewe how farre as he saith an vnfaithfull traitor may be accompted dead while he liueth And for this be frameth a comparison betwéene Iudas and the Pastors of the Church condemning them as the worse For after he hath set forth that Iudas was an Apostle when he betraied Christ and spirituallie dead when he had lost the honour of an Apostle and as it was foretold by Dauid that another should haue his place so Matthias succéeded him in the Apostleship He would haue no foole here dispute that Matthias dare away triumph and not iniurie which by the victorie of Christ had the spoyle of the traitor Then he demandeth how canst thou by this déede challenge to thy selfe the office of a Bishop being the heire of a more wicked traitor Iudas Christum carnalem tradidit tu spiritualem furens Euangelium sanctum flammis sacrilegis tradidisti Iudas betraied Christ carnal thou spirituall being in furie thou hast deliuered the holie Gospell to the fire Iudas legislatorem tradidit perfidis tu quasi eius reliquias legem dei perdendā hominibus tradidisti Iudas betraied the lawgiuer to the wicked thou hast betraied as it were his reliques the lawe of God vnto mē to be destroied Si hominis mortui testamentū flammis incenderes nonne falsarius punireris quid de te ergo futurum est qui sanctissimam legem dei iudicis incendisti If thou shouldest burne the will of a dead man shouldest thou not bee punished as a falsifier what then shall become of thee which hast burnt the most holie lawe of GOD the Iudge Iudam facti vel in morte poenituit te non modò non poenitet verumetiam nequissimus traditor nobis legem seruantibus persecutor carnifex existis Iudas repented him of his deed at least in death but thou doest not onely not repent but also being a most wicked traitor remainest a persecutor and a tormentor of vs that keepe the lawe Cresconius a Grammarian one as it seemeth that taught some Grammar schoole tooke vpon him to write against Augustine in the defence of Petilian or rather of the whole Donatisme and he laieth to the charge of Caecilianus the vnpardonable sinne against the holie Ghost in betraying the scriptures to the persecutors vsing this argument Holie men of God deliuered them as they were led by the holie Ghost Augustine in the 4. booke against Cresconius Chapt. 8. Petilian though otherwise full of great bragging being verie vnwilling to haue open disputation in any open assembly of learned men vsed this arrogant speach Indignum est vt in vnum conueniant filij martyrum progenies traditorum It is an vnworthie thing that the sonnes of the Martyres and the generations of traitors should be assembled together Thus much may suffice for this poynt Where we see that the Donatists departed disorderlie out of the Church condemning it not for any poynt of doctrine for therein they did not disagree but for that many which in the time of persecution dissembled many which reuolted and to saue their liues did sacrifice to the Idolls many which deliuered the bookes of holie Scripture to bee burned and betraied the names of the brethren when the storme was ouer there was a sodaine calme the Emperour Constantine being become Christian such ioy in all Christian lands Christianitie magnified with such honour
for that I say many such returned to professe the Gospell againe as members of the Church and were receiued For saide the Donatists the Church is holie consisting of such as be called foorth and separated from the vnpure and wicked world and therefore no separation being made but such villanous traitors so vile Idolaters and their childrē being communicated withall all your assemblies through this mixture are none other before GOD but heapes of abominable vncleane persons Your teachers are the sonnes of Apostates and traitors and no Ministers of Christ Now looke vpon the Donatists of England Antichrist hath béen exalted according to the prophesie of S. Paule he hath sate in the Temple of God boasting himselfe as God persecuting and murthering Gods true worshippers He is disclosed by the glorious light of the Gospell his damnable doctrine cursed Idolatrie and vsurped tyrannie are cast foorth of this land by the holie sacred power of our dread Soueraigne Ladie Quéene Elizabeth whom God hath placed settled vpon the Throne of this noble Kingdome The true doctrine of faith is published and penalties are by lawes appoynted for such as shall stubbernlie despise the same Our Donatists crie out that our assemblies as ye may see in their printed bookes and that the people were all by constraint receiued immediatlie from Idolatrie into our Church without preaching of the Gospell by the sound of a Trumpet at the Coronation of the Queene that they bee confused assemblies without any separation of the good from the bad They affirme also that our Ministers haue their discent and ordination and power from Antichrist and so are his marked seruants Hereupon not vnderstanding the manifest Scripture that the Apostasie hauing inuaded the Church it continued still euen then the Temple of God in which Antichrist did sit and that the verie Idolaters were within the Church were sealed with the signe of baptisme professed Christ in some points rightlie their children from ancient discent being within the couenant of God and of right to bee baptized the Ministerie of Christ so farre remaining as that it was the authentick seale which was deliuered by the same in a mad furie like blind hypocrites they condemne the reformation by ciuill power and purging Gods Temple by the authoritie of Princes because the Church of Christ is founded and built by the doctrine of the Gospell Herein they are deceiued that they imagine the Princes take vpon them to compell those to bée a Church which were none before whereas indeed they doo but compell those within their kingdome ouer whome the Lord hath set them which haue receiued the signe of the couenant and professe themselues to bee members of the Church accordinglie to renounce and forsake all false worship and to imbrace the doctrine of saluation What other thing did Iosias and other holie Kings of Iuda when they compelled the multitude of Idolaters which were the seede of Abraham and circumcised to forsake their Idolatrie and to worship the Lord It is most cléere also that where the reformation of the Kings was not perfect as appeareth in the bookes of the Kings and Chronicles yet all the foulest things being abolished and the substance of trueth brought in they were reputed godlie Churches where many were false brethren and open offenders The Brownists blinded with their swelling pride and not séeing the euident matters of the Scriptures without all order of that holie discipline of Christ accuse condemne and forsake our Churches vnder the appearance of feruent zeale and rigorous seueritie against all sinne not inferiour to the Donatists as if they were the onely men that stood for Christ and his kingdome they crie out aloude and proclaime all the Ministers of our Churches to be Antichristian the sonnes of the Pope false Prophets Baals Priests that prophesie in Baal and pleade for Baal persecutors of the iust bearing the marke the power and life of the beast because they say our ordeiners bee such They say wee haue no word of God no Sacraments nor true Church but that all is vtterlie polluted and become abominable our assemblies they call the very Synagogs of Antichrist vtterlie fallen from the couenant of God and all that ioyne with them through the pollution of open sinners which are not cast foorth and therefore they haue separated themselues and crie aloude vnto others to doo the same if they will be saued What rule of discipline haue they obserued in this Haue these things béen brought foorth scanned discussed and iudged in the Synods of the learned Pastors and teachers of the Churches Nay but euen as Augustine saith of the other furor dolus tumultus furie deceipt and tumult do beare the sway Then I conclude that in this poynt of accusing condemning and manner of separating themselues from the Church the Donatists and the Brownists doo agree and are alike Some man will here replie that I build vppon a weake ground or rather vpon the sand in prouing the Brownists and the Donatists to bée all one because they are alike in accusing and condemning the Churches and separating themselues from the same For the matter resteth not simply vpon the actions but whether there were iust cause The question will bee whether the Brownists doo that iustlie which the Donatists did vngodly For the Donatists did accuse the Churches and Ministers falsely condemned them most wickedly and therefore their separation could not bee good because it was from the true Churches of Christ but now if the Brownists obiect open and manifest crimes such as cannot be denied their case doth differ farre May not a man separate himselfe from those assemblies where he seeth open sinners suffered on heapes to remaine in the bosome of the Church and where idolatries blasphemies and abominations are committed where the Ministers and gouernment be Antichristian but he must bée a Donatist Moreouer it is certaine the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world the Brownists doo condemne onely the assemblies as they generally stand in England which is a very great difference The Donatists hold that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the Minister the Brownists are not of that mind The Donatists did rebaptize the Brownists doo vrge no such thing It may be also they are vnlike in some other things if it be so why should they be termed Donatists Indeed if there be such differences the Brownists haue great wrong to bee called Donatists and to bee condemned with so wicked a sect But what if it fall out otherwise and that it be shewed and prooued manifestlie that they be all one in these things Shall wee not then say they be euen brethren shall they not stand or fall with the Donatists shall they be vngodlie Schismatickes and not these I will procéede from poynt to poynt to compare them together that it may appeare whether there be difference Touching the first it is most true that the Donatists did accuse and condemne
hence that the Church of England is esteemed and reuerenced among the Churches as a sister and communicated withall and yet they all know what her faults be in her assemblies in her worship in her ministrie and gouernment in as much as they are open and apparant to them euen as to our selues Now that they iustifie her as a true Church we haue their own words for the harmonie of confessions of the Churches collected and set foorth by the Churches of France and of the Lowe Countries doth receiue and approoue the confession of the Church of England and call it one of the reformed Churches Whereupon I argue thus If the Church of England be Antichristian and idolatrous and worship the beast bow downe vnto him and receiue his marke because of the gouernment by Bishops then the Churches which doo perfectlie knowe the same and yet doo acknowledge her as a sister and communicate with her are partakers of her sinne and so to be condemned with her Therefore the Brownists condemning it condemne those that iustifie it knowing the estate The Brownists condemne all those as persecutors of the iust enemies of Christ and of his kingdome that shall hold them to be Heretickes and Schismatickes for condemning the Church of England and separating themselues I argue thus All the Churches which know the Church of England and her forme of gouernment and yet doo loue and reuerence her as a true Church of Christ condemne those as hereticall Schismatickes which call it Antichristian and separate themselues from it For how can the Churches as they doo esteeme the Church of England as a true sister and yet not condemne the Brownists as wicked Schismatickes which call it the Synagog of Sathan Then let the Brownists shewe that the Churches haue reuoked this their former iudgement of the Church of England or else let them answere whether they condemne not all those as no true Christians which shall affirme them to be wicked Schismatickes for separating themselues from the assemblies of England If they will deny that the churches esteeme our Churche as a sister and therefore condemne them as vngodlie Schismatickes the matter is so cléere that all men shal see them then to be impudent It may be some Brownist will replie that it cannot be extended vnto all Churches a farre off which is verified in some that be nigh Well let vs see then for the Churches a farre off Doo not the Brownists condemne the Church of Geneua They will say no. But I say they doo For as I sayd before will they not condemne all such as doo reiect them as wicked Schismatickes This doth the Church of Geneua Which I prooue thus In that the Church of Geneua doth approoue the doctrine of those that haue béen and are her most learned and godlie Pastors as Master Caluin with whom the rest consent in doctrine Now touching the doctrine of Master Caluin published whereby he condemneth the Brownists as Schismatickes ye may reade it in fourth booke of his Institutions and the first Chapter It is too large to recite the whole I will alleage but some parts Looke vppon the seuenth section where he saith that in the visible Church in earth there are verie many hypocrites mingled verie many that be ambicious couetous enuious cursed speakers some of more impure life which tollerated for a time either because they cannot in lawfull iudgemēt be conuinced or else because that seueritie of discipline which ought to be is not alwaies in force In the ninth section he affirmeth that the reason is somewhat diuers in esteeming priuate men and in esteeming the churches for it may come to passe as he saith that wee ought to handle them as brethren and accompt instead of beléeuers such as wee shall thinke vtterlie vnworthie the fellowship of the godlie euen for the cōmon consent of the church by which they are tollerated in the bodie of Christ Wee doo not approoue such by our voyce to be members of the Church but we leaue vnto them that place which they hold among the people of God vntill it be taken from them by lawfull iudgement Then he addeth but wee must thinke otherwise of the multitude which if it haue the Ministerie of the Word and giue honour if it haue the Administration of the Sacraments no doubt it deserueth to bee accounted a Church because it is certaine those things are not without fruite so wee both keepe for the Uniuersall Church her vnitie which diuelish Spirites haue alwaies endeuored to cutte in sunder neither doo wee defraude of their authoritie the lawfull assemblies which are seuered according to the fitnes of places In the tenth section hee vttereth that the Lord maketh so great account of the communion of his Church that he estéemeth him as a runnagate and forsaker of religion whosoeuer he be that frowardlie shall separate himselfe from any Christian societie which imbraseth but the true Ministrie of the word and Sacraments And a little after he inferreth vpon some ground of reason that the departure from the Church is the deniall of God and of Christ affirming moreouer that no crime can bée deuised more horrible than with sacrilegious trecherie to violate the mariage which the Sonne of God hath vouchsafed to contract with vs. In the twelft section hée dooth expounde what is his meaning when he requireth a pure Ministerie of the word and pure order of administring the Sacraments as notes infallible of the true Church For hee saieth there may somewhat that is faltie créepe in either in the administration of the word or of the Sacraments which ought not to separate vs from the Communion of that Ministrie Because there be principles of Religion without which we cannot be saued and there be points in which men dissent and the one part erreth and yet the vnitie of faith and brotherlie loue is kept not that we are to approue the least errour in doctrine or the sialest corruption in the administration of the Sacraments In the thirtéenth section he saith that in tolerating the imperfection of life wée ought to bée much more fauorable for here we are vpon slipperie ground where wée may easely fall And the euill dooth héere lie in waite and assalt vs with speciall engines for there haue been alwaies some which being caried with a false perswasion of an absolute perfection as if they were now become certaine ayrie spirites despised the fellowship of all men in whome they saw any thing that is humaine or corrupt remaining Such were of olde time the Cathari and the Donatists which fell into the same furie such are at this daye some of the Anabaptists which would seeme to haue profited more than others There be other some that offend rather of an inconsiderate zeale of righteousnes than of that mad pride for while they see the life is not answerable to the holie doctrine in bringing foorth good fruite among such as haue the Gospell preached they iudge by and by that
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous
it of necessitie seeing men are excommunicate and deposed for not obseruing it or as some verie ignorantlie vse to say if it be a thing indifferent why is it not left indifferent for men to vse or not to vse I answere that which is a thing indifferent God commaundeth it shall be done when it is conuenient and for edification and therefore when the Church doth appoynt or ordeine it rightly he that breaketh it wilfullie breaketh the commandement of God And so on the other side when it falleth out not to be conuenient and the Church dooth alter it hee that will now obserue it with a resisting minde doth like wise offend against the rule of Gods word I neuer doubted but that by neâ—essary consequence it is to be drawen from the doctrine of the scriptures that prayer is to be made before and after the word preached but I speake of a commaundement in expresse wordes therefore the places are cited here by the Brownist to no purpose And all the rest of his words that follow are either in matters wherin we agree or such as he collectetth from his owne ignorance and which are answered before The next argument is Read prayers were deuised by Antichrist and maintaine superstition and Idole ministerie c. Here the Brownist if he would at all speak to the purpose shoulde prooue that the very reading a prayer when one prayeth is the deuise of Antichrist maintaineth superstitioÌ„ an Idole ministrie But he flieth dealeth about the matter of leiturgies saying he hath heard the Pope woulde haue approoued ours if it might be receiued in his name If master Greenwoods newes from Rome were true which hee heard the matter were not great for the Pope will approoue the Lords prayer the commaundements and articles of the faith but he wil expound them as it pleaseth him The Pope also to wind in himself wil approoue in shew many things which he misliketh so they be not directly against his crowne and dignitie And it is to be considered that the controuersies betweene vs and the Papists are not about the matters which we are to begge in prayer There is no likelyhood that the Pope made such offer because he knoweth we holde in the substance and grounds of the faith that which quite ouerthroweth him but if he did men may see by these things which I haue noted that master Greenwood doth but shift and trifle He confesseth leiturgies were before Antichrist and yet saith he was the deuiser See the grauitie of this man he is sore afraide that hee should here againe be said to condemne all Churches because they haue read prayer and therfore he saith his arguments are falsely wrested Answere your selfe then and tell vs what ye holde them which receiue the deuise of Antichrist Why crie yee not out of the marke of the beast It is a pitifull thing to see in what a case the Brownist is For he wil not coÌ„demne the Churches and yet after he hath set foorth what leiturgie is and affirmed that the new Testament is Christs leiturgie he alleageth that they be accursed that adde thereto and holdeth prescript forme of prayer an adding Let him now be asked is the curse layd vpon the true Churches he will say no. Then prescript forme is either no adding to Christs Testament or else they be vnder the curse that vse it He saith leiturgies are another gospel Then all Churches haue receiued another gosepl The wordes that follow haue bin answered before Where I sayd there would sundrie inconueniences growe for want of prescript forme of publike prayer After he hath set downe that Christ is a perfect law giuer and that the word of God is sufficient he tearmeth it blasphemie to say there would be inconueniences without leiturgies then all the Churches committe blasphemie whether doe ye yet condemne them or not This is from his grosenes which doth not se that Christs Testament is perfect and yet there are things commaunded in generall rules which are variable as I haue before shewed for circumstances of time place persons sitting kneeling c. He saith there can be no particular lawes made without breaking the lawe of God as though the Church were not to see what in these is fit and conuenient vpon euerie occasion and time and for that time to establish the same But euerie man to doe as he shall like or shal take the generall rule of order and decencie for men will not agree this is from rules of order to drawe confusion Now this great deuine saith I haue made a faire hande in affirming leiturgies to be but a matter of order or conueniencie for edification Seeing as hee saith it is all the worship we haue this commeth from him that hath the beautie of Sion as he boasteth which the inchaunters of Egipt cannot iudge of This commeth from him that with his fellowes hath the cloude betweene them and vs and the pillar of fire before them as he speaketh in the next wordes Because I say the prescript forme and the reading are but for order he concludeth that I confesse the prayer is but a matter of order or conueniencie ye say I haue made a faire hand But I tell ye master Greenwood if ye should goe into the Schooles and reason so in earnest the young boyes would be readie to hisse ye foorth as a non proficiens and howe faire hand should you make then they will not beleeue ye haue it from your pillar of fire but out of that dark cloud of your ignorance which is betweene your selfe and the light of the trueth Now wheras I said y e Church hath power to ordain according to the word of God to appoint such orders in matters of circumstance about publike prayer preaching of the worde and administring of the Sacraments as shall most fitly serue for edification and then these orders being established by publike authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to driue men to the obseruation of the same that stubbornely break them Here the poore Brownist layeth open himselfe againe to be as blinde as a beetle he will needes haue it to be papisticall mudde and that I am in an Apostacie Because there can as he saith no other lawes be made in matters of circumstance than Christ himselfe hath made that to ordaine lawes in the Church is to plead for vnwritten verities and to make the law of God vnsufficieÌ„t It is an adding to the word of God which is execrable pride All the Popes trinkets might bee brought in by the same ground This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to giue libertie to make lawes in the worship of God And by your iudgement which would haue men driuen to obserue them our Sauiour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatike that would not himselfe nor his disciples obey the traditions of the Elders Thus speaketh this Brownist But what beastlie ignorance doth he bewray and that in sundrie poynts and with what