with the same Medicine that some have cured sick persons with holy Bread and Oyl which indeed is the most likely of them all as being good Food and good Medicine And although not so much as a Chicken is now a days cured of the Pip by holy Water yet upon all Occasions they use it and the common people throw it upon Childrens Cradles and sick Cows horns and upon them that they think bewitched or blasted and if they recover by any means it is imputed to the Holy-water and so the Simplicity of Christian Religion the glory of our Dependance upon God and the Holiness and mystery of Sacraments are disordered and dishonour'd Thus the Israelites did when they fell to Idolatry they joyned themselves to Baal Peor and eat the Sacrifices of the dead thus they provoked him to anger with their Inventions Psal 106.28 29. and v. 39. Thus were they defiled with their own Works and went a whoring with their own Inventions Child Is there any thing else that they teach of the Sacraments to be observed Father Yes There is yet one great Instance more of their Irreligion they are taught to rely upon the Sacraments with so little of moral and vertuous Dispositions that the Efficacy of one is made to lessen the Necessity of the other and the Sacraments are taught to be so effectual by an inherent Vertue that they are not so much made the Instruments of Vertue as the Supplement not so much to encrease as to make amends for the want of Grace contrary to that of the Apostle Whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this Cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup 1 Cor. 11.27 28. Child By this I suppose they do not think Repentance is needful to fit and prepare us for the Lords-table I pray Sir what do they teach concerning that Duty Father They are so loose in the Doctrine of Repentance that you cannot imagine it I shall therefore shew you what we and they teach concerning that Duty and conclude this Discourse Child I pray Sir first shew me then what we teach concerning Repentance Father Our Protestant Doctors teach that Repentance is an inward and true sorrow for Sin especially that we have offended so gracious a God and so loving a Father together with a settled purpose of Heart and a careful endeavour to leave all our Sins and to live a Christian Life according to all God's Commandments The Sacrifices of God are a broken Spirit a broken and a contrite Heart O God thou wilt not despise Ps 51.17 Child How is this Grace wrought in us Father 'T is wrought in us partly by the threatning of the Law and the fear of God's Judgments but especially increased by feeling the Fruit of Christ's Death whereby we have power to hate Sin and to leave it Child Wherein doth Repentance properly consist Father In a through changing of our purpose and desires from the Evil which God's word rebuketh in us to the good which it requireth of us Child Can men repent of themselves or when they list Father No for it is the gift of God given to them that are born again Child When is this Repentance to be practised Father The practice of Repentance ought to be a continual abhorring of Evil and cleaving unto that which is good for as much time as remains in the Flesh after our Confusion yet at some times there ought to be a more special practice and renewing thereof as after grievous Falls as we see in David Psal 51. and in fear of eminent Judgments which the Prophet calls for Amos 4.12 Because I will do this unto thee prepare to meet thy God O Israel Or when we should fit our selves to receive special mercies as when we come to the Lord's Table c. Child You have shewed me the Protestant Doctrine of Repentance I pray God give me Grace to practise it all the dayes of my life But I pray Sir Do not the Papists teach the same Father No. They teach 1. That a Sinner is not bound to repent of his Sin presently if it be done at any time 't is sufficient Some say he is bound by the Precept of the Church to repent upon the great Holidays others say once a year at Easter but 't is the general opinion that by the Law of God they are not tied to so much but only to repent in the danger or Article of Death from whence some conclude that to refuse to repent is but a venial sin but others say 't is none at all Child This seems to me to be intolerable Have they any more such Doctrines Father Alas Child this is but the beginning of sorrows The next thing therefore that I shall mention is their Doctrines concerning Contrition which when it is true and cordial for having sinn'd against God the the Church of Rome does not allow it to be of any value unless it be joyn'd with a desire to confess their Sins unto a Priest and this is decreed by the Councel of Trent contrary to all Scripture to the Doctrine of the Prophets Ezek. 18.30 Repent and turn your selves from all your Transgressions so Iniquity shall not be your ruine to the Doctrine of the Apostles Repent and be converted that your sins may be blotted out Act. 3.19 But this is not all for as Contrition without Confession will not reconcile us to God so Attrition as they call it proceeding from fear of damnation together with their Sacrament will do as well There is no necessity of Contrition at all If a man live a wicked life 60 or 80 years together yet if in the Article of his Death he be but a little sorrowful for his Sins and though this Sorrow hath in it no love of God but only a fear of Hell if the Priest absolves him he passes him instantly into a state of Salvation The Priest with two fingers and a thumb can do his work for him in a moment Child Vpon these terms it is a wonder that all wicked men in the World are not Papists where they may live so merrily and dye so securely but is not Confession a troublesome thing to them Father Not at all They have an easie formal way of it I confess unto Almighty God to the Blessed V. Mary to blessed Michael the Archangel to blessed Jo. Baptist to the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul to all the Saints and to you my Ghostly Father that I have very much sinned in thought word and deed through my fault through my fault through my exceeding great fault Therefore I beseech thee B. Virgin Mary blessed Michael the Archangel blessed John Baptist the holy Apostles Peter and Paul all the Saints and you my Ghostly Father to pray unto our Lord God for me And when they see Princes and Prelates Women and Boyes do the same every
and they ring a Bell to give the People notice of it that they may adore it If any of the People receive which is very seldome they must not touch it with their hands but the Priest must put it into their mouths and there it must dissolve These and many other such like Ceremonies are made Articles of Faith Child But did Christ ordain none of those Rites Father No. John came baptizing with Water John 1.31 The Eunuch said to Philip here is water what doth hinder me to be baptized Acts 8.36 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered to you saith St. Paul 1 Cor. 11.25 That the Lord Jesus the same night that he was betray'd took Bread and when he had given thanks he brake it and said Take eat this is my Body which is broken for you this do in remembrance of me They do neither break the Bread nor suffer the People to take or eat it Child I have heard enough of this I pray Sir proceed to the fifth Father I also embrace and receive all and several the things which have been defined and declared in the Sacred and holy Synod of Trent concerning Original Sin and Justification Child What Doctrines do they hold concerning Original Sin and Justification Father The things declared and defined by the Councel of Trent concerning Original Sin and Justification are too many to be here recited They teach that Concupiscence is no sin after Regeneration that 't is washed away by Baptism That the first motions thereof is no sin Concerning Justification they declare that we are Justified by Works that good Works are meritorious nay that there be Works of supererogation whereby the Saints do merit not onely for themselves but for others and out of the superabundant Merits of Christ and the Saints the Treasure of the Church is made up which the Pope hath power to dispence to vvhom he please vvhich brings him in great Treasure Child But what doth the Scripture say to these things Father David confesseth his Original Sin as the Root and Fountain of all Sin Psal 51.5 Behold I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my Mother conceive me And St. Paul complains of it Rom. 7.18 I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing for to vvill is present vvith me but hovv to perform that vvhich is good I knovv not Child But are we not justified by our Works Father No Child We are justified freely by his Grace through the Redemption that is in Jesus Christ Rom. 3.24 v. 27.28 Where is boasting then it is excluded by what Law of Works Nay but by the Law of Faith Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the Deeds of the Law Child If we are not justified by Works then certainly we cannot merit by them Father You say well and the same Christ teaches us in the Gospel Luke 17.10 When you shall have done all those things that are commanded you say We are unprofitable Servants we have done that which was our duty to do Child What is the sixth Article Father I also profess that in the Mass there is offered to God a true proper and propitiatory Sacrifice for the Living and the Dead and that in the most holy Sacrament of the Eucharist is contained truly really and substantially the Body and Blood together with the Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ and there is made a perfect Change of the whole substance of the Bread into his Body and of the whole Substance of the Wine into his Blood which change the Catholick Church calleth Transubstantiation Child In this Article are many things that I would be glad to understand 1. What I pray Sir is meant by the Mass Father 'T is an old word that few understand the word Missa some say did signifie to dismiss some out of the Assembly even all that did not communicate which if it should do so still would leave the Priest alone for now he usually communicates by himself and the People look on But I rather think 't is call'd the Mass because 't is a mess or mass of Corruption Child But why is is call'd a Sacrifice for the Living and the Dead I thought Sacrifice had ceased Father True Child so the Apostle Heb. 9.28 Christ was once offer'd to bear the Sins of many and Chap. 10.12 But this man after he had offer'd one Sacrifice for Sins for ever sate down on the right hand of God and verse 14. By one Offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified It may be call'd a Sacrifice because it is a Representation and Memorial of the true Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and because it makes us Partakers of the same but no otherwise as I know of Child But is is the Bread and Wine changed into the Body and Blood of Christ Father No Child certainly if it were we should see it with our Eyes and handle it with our hands and smell it and tast it so to be but we see it and handle it and smell it and tast it Bread and Wine and therefore no doubt so it is After this manner St. John writes That which was from the Beginning which we have heard which we have seen with our Eyes which we have looked upon and our hands have handled of the word of Life 1 Joh. 1.1 and ver 3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you that you may have Fellowship with 〈◊〉 Child But what doth the Scripture call it Father The Scripture after Consecration calls it Bread three times together 1 Cor. 11.26.27.28 For as often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup ye do shew the Lords Death till he come Wherefore whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this Cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup. Child But is it plain Bread and Wine and no more Father O no! God by these Signs of Bread and Wine signifieth sealeth and exhibiteth to every faithful Receiver the Body and Blood of Christ and all the merits of his Death and Passion So the Apostle 1 Cor. 10.16 The Cup of Blessing which we bless is it not the Communion of the Blood of Christ the Bread which we break is it not the Communion of the Body of Christ Child But what is this they call Transubstantiation Father The word signifies the Change of one Substance into another and thereby they express their Doctrine of the corporal Presence but neither the word nor thing is to be found in Scripture nor in the Writings of the primitive Fathers neither was it pretended to be an Article of Faith till the Lateran Counsel 1200 years after Christ and therefore we protest against it and say that what the Church of Rome teaches of Transubstantiation is absolutely impossible and
Father Yes We have the Nicene Creed made by the Fathers of the Nicene Councel the Creed of Athanasius and that which is commonly call'd the Apostles Creed which ought throughly to be believed for they may be proved by most certain Warrants of holy Scripture as our Church declares Art 8. Child But do these Creeds contain the true Christian Catholick Faith Father Yes They contain all necessary points in Religion to be believ'd and have therefore been call'd the Key and Rule of Faith and the Church never knew any other Creed or confession of Faith for many hundred years Child Is this the Faith which I must profess and seal with my Blood if I be called to it Father Yes Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me in Faith and Love which is in Christ Jesus 2 Tim. 1.13 Hence Athanasius thus concludes This is the Catholick Faith which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved Child But do not the Papists own these three Creeds as well as we Father They do own them as part of the Christian Faith though they little regard them but not as the whole Christian Faith Child Have they any other Creed or Profession of the Faith Father Yes The decrees of their Popes and the Canons of their late Popish Councels they hold to be Articles of Faith but especially they own and maintain the new Creed made by the Councel of Trent and confirmed by Pope Pius the fourth in the year 1564. Child Is it lawful Sir to make a new Creed Father No in no wise Though we saith St. Paul or an Angel from Heaven preach any other Gospel than that which we have preached unto you let him be accursed Gal. 1.8 Child I perceive by what you have spoken that notwithstanding the Papists talk of the old Religion they have made a new Creed and brought in a new Religion and that we are call'd Protestants because we protest against it Father You conclude very well and that you may be confirmed and strengthened in the true Faith I will shew you the Trent Creed and give you some short Observations upon it First I most firmly receive and embrace the Apostolical and Ecclesiastical Traditions and all other Customs and Constitutions of the same Church Child What be those Traditions and Customs of the Church Father Truly Child I know not neither do they themselves neither will they tell us what they be but when they can make no proof for a Doctrine out of the Word of God they say 't is a Tradition and yet this Christ condemns in the Jews Mark 7.7 9. In vain do they worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men full well ye reject the Commandments of God that you may keep your own Traditions Child If this be the first Article of their new Creed they begin well for as far as I can understand the real Sense and Import thereof is I believe in the Pope for whatsoever he says is a Tradition must be believ'd I pray Sir what is the second Father The second Article is I admit the holy Scripture in that sense which the holy Mother-Church hath held and holdeth to whom it belongs to judge of the true Sense and Interpretation of the holy Scriptures nor will I ever receive or interpret them but according to the unanimous Consent of the Fathers Child Here is a form of receiving the Scriptures but I perceive it must be in such Tenor and Sense as the Fathers admit that is I suppose the Pope and his Council But do they suffer the People to read the Scriptures Father No Child they dare not do it they know that would destroy Popery Root and Branch and yet Christ says Search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal Life and they are they which testifie of me John 5.39 And the Bereans are commended and said to be nobler than those in Thessalonica in that they received the word with all Readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Acts 17.11 12. Child But since they keep the power of Interpretation methinks they might suffer People to read the Scriptures with their Glosses upon it Father No Child they dare not for they would quickly find their Glosses to be false the Scripture is so plain teaching us that no Prophecy of the Scripture is of any private Interpretation for the Prophecy came not in old time by the Will of Man but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2 Pet. 1.20 Child But are all things necessary to Salvation plainly to be found in Scripture Father Yes The testimony of the Lord is sure making wise the Simple Psal 19.8 9. Thy word is a Lamp unto my Feet and a Light unto my Path. Psal 119.108 From a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 Child You have said enough to this I pray God set it home to my Heart I pray Sir proceed to the third Article Father The third Article is I profess also that there are 7 true and proper Sacraments of the new Law instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord for the Salvation of Mankind although all are not necessary to each one to wit Order Baptism Confirmation Eucharist Pennance extream Unction Matrimony and those all give Grace and of these Baptism Confirmation and Order cannot be reiterated without Sacriledge Child Did Jesus Christ appoint these Seven Sacraments Father No some of them had their being before and some after Christ's time only Baptism and the Eucharist or Lords Supper were instituted immediately by Christ received their Forms from him and flowed out of his wounded side whence it cometh that Water is the matter of Baptism and Bread and Wine of the Lords Supper Child I observe that they make Matrimony a Sacrament and say it gives Grace and yet I have heard that they will not suffer their Priests to marry Is that true Father Yes 'T is true they do so but 't is contrary to the word of God for we read 1 Tim. 3.2 A Bishop must be blameless the Husband of one Wife having his Children in Subjection Child I pray Sir what is the fourth Article Father I also receive and admit all received and approved Rights of the Catholick Church in the solemn Administrations of all the abovesaid Sacraments Child I pray Sir what are those approved Rights Father The vain Superstitions and idolatrous Rites of the Church of Rome in the Administration of the Sacraments are so many that they cannot easily be numbred However some of the Principal that are in my mind I shall discover to you In Baptism they conjure the Devil out of the Child they use many Crossings and besides Water they use Chrisme or Cream Salt and the Priests Spittle In the Eucharist after the words of Consecration they elevate the Hoast as they call it that is the consecrated Wafer