but stained the faith of Christ with reproaches creatures with the Lords honour Gods service with Idolatry Doct. Whitakers in his second controversie of the Church q. 6. cap. 1. adiudgeth the present Romish Church to be nothing else but a deepe pit of heresie and errour and thereby argueth her no wayes to be or to belong vnto the true Church Mr. Perkins in the Preface to his Reformed Catholike saith The whole Religion of the present Romish Church is hereticall and schismaticall and the cup of abomination in the Whores hand Revel 17.4 And Doctor Abbot Bishop of Salisbury in his defence of this place in Mr. Perkins doth iustifie and avow the same thing against bishop the Papist Bishop Careton in his directions to know the true Church prooues at large that the present Romish Church holas not vnitie with the true Church neither in the head nor in the body nor in the spirit nor in the faith If that be true she is all errour her faith is erronious Now I haue proved our Assumption against his exception thereto by the authority of our Church and a cloud of her most learned and renowned children I will make the same good by the testimony of God himselfe But I am prevented in that by Mr. Wotton who hath done it already in his booke called Runne from Rome where he beginnes this poynt pag 14. num 4. whereunto I might refer the Reader as vnto a most pious learned author a worke that admitteth not any reall essentiall or substantiall addition but I will make bold to take out of him so much as belongs to this cause not word for word but so much as will be sutable to the buisinesse First I will set downe how he vnfoldeth the terme and then come to his proofes of the question The word Faith importeth a singular thing vndevided into either members or kindes with warrant from the Apostle who speakes so of it Eph. 4.5 There is one faith saith he one Baptisme one Mediator between God and man 1 Tim. 2.5 In what manner the Mediator is one and Baptisme is one so Faith is once for one phrase of speech is common to them all but they are one without division into members or kinds therefore so is faith The thing it selfe sayes no lesse for this word Faith importeth a coÌ„prehension of many sentences made one body by a common band namely the divine authority For in every article a part and in all of them together we find the same authority which draweth vs to consent to them as true and accordingly the beleefe of one is the beleefe of all the deniall of one the deniall of all Every Engular sentence pronounced by the Church of Rome as a thing revealed by God is in this question the Romish faith An Article of faith is then erronious when it agrees not with the sacred Revelation and this wee say with warrant from the Councell of Trent Sess 14. cap 8. of the necessitie of Satisfaction And afterwards in the Decree touching the Sacrament of pennance Canon 6. And the thing it selfe doth avowe the same for the varying from the rule is the very nature of error therefore every article of faith must needs be erronious that agrees not with Gods word because that word is the rule thereof By it our faith was revealed vnto vs and by the recorde thereof it is reserved for vs. And so much for Mr. Wottons explication We haue his proofe pag 15. nu 6. thus set forth That faith which hath a faâ—se and erronious foundation is false and erronions But the foundation of the Romish saith is false and erronious Therefore the Romish faith is false and erronious In the Proposition two things are taken as granted viz. 1 Faith hath a foundation without it 2 Different foundations causeth different faithes Both of them are cleere and evident therefore they stand not in need of my proofe if the termes be opened they will be out of question By foundation wee meane the next and formall reason why we assent to this or that proposition in Divinity that is why we iudge this predicate to bee truly and rightly attributed to that subiect now this is without the Article it selfe because it is no more but the authority of him that pronounceth the sentence In the second sentence we meane to say Every distinct faith followes the next and formall reason of our beleeving as when wee beleeue this or that report to be true vpon the authority of him that reports it this is humane saith because it followes humane authority and accordingly the faith of Turks and Heathens is accompted humane because the next reason of their beleeving is mans authority accordingly that is Divine faith when we esteeme this or that sentence to be true because God hath pronounced it And thus haue we cleered the Proposition Mr. Wotton prooues the Assumption by these two sentences 1. The foundation of their faith is the authority of the Pastors of their Church No. 7. 2. This foundation of faith is false and erronious No. 10. And this proofe is manifest and without exception if both these sentences be true But they are true he prooues the first num 8. by this argument They that haue the office to determine what is the true faith that is what is revealed what is not revealed their authority is the foundation of faith But the Romish Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath that office Therefore the authority of their Church that is the Pastors of their Church is the foundation of their faith The Proposition needs no reliefe for that office of shewing what is revealed and what is not is the next and formall reason of their beleefe as by their doctrine and practise we shall see hereafter num 8. c. The Assumption needes our helpe as little for every man that is acquainted with their faith knowes that they giue their Church that office yet for further explication I will shew the same by the Councel of Trent Sess 4. praeterea c. saith It is the office of the Church to iudge of the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures By Church they vnderstand the Pastors of the Church and we know it by their practise and the Iudgement of their learned No man inioyeth a share in the voice of deciding Iudgement in any Councel but their Bishops who onely according to them are the Pastors of the Church By Iudging is meant an inforcing power compelling their sentence to be obeyed and received By sense of the Scriptures is vnderstood every Article or sentence of faith for an Article of faith is a sentence held according to the true sense of Gods word By Scriptures they vnderstand every particular sentence contained in the Scriptures for if they meant some places onely there could be no certainty in this decree because they doe not determine the particular places subiected to the Churches sentence and when they subiect the sense of
the Scriptures vnto the Churches Iudgement they would haue vs beleeue that the Church must tell vs which be the Scriptures and which be not else we can haue no divine faith of them for reason tells vs they must haue authority in all points of faith or none at all This decree of the Councel thus vnderstood is followed by all their Divines and Suarez giues it vs in this one sentence A generall Councell in which the Pope is present either in his owne person or by his Legats and confirmed by the Pope is an infallible rule of Faith And this is a matter of Faith De Fide c. Tracta 1. Disp 5. Sect. 7. No. 6. 9. Bellarmine delivereth the selfe same matter in a most ample large manner in divers places in his third booke of Gods word and I will report them in order as they stand and thus he begins Cap. 3. Tota igitur The Church that is the Pope with his Councell of other Pastors is the Iudge of the true sense of the Scriptures in which all Catholikes agree and the Councell of Trent hath it expresly Sess 4. It is committed singularly to Peter and his Successours that they should teach all men what is to be held concerning the doctrine of Faith Cap. 5. Ex his c. The Councels and Popes execute the office of a Iudge committed to them by God a Iudge delivereth his sentence as a thing that necessarily must be followed Cap. 10. Respond aliud est Christians are bound to receiue the doctrine of the Church when it setteth forth the matters of faith and not to doubt whether those things be so or not Cap. 10. sept argumentum Hitherto he setteth forth the matter in grosse and not vnfoulded wherefore we must seeke for that also and we shall finde the same in the said 10. Chapter and first he giveth vs a reason why the Church should haue this office committed to her in these words The Scripture for it selfe needs not the witnesse of men for it is most true in it selfe whether it be vnderstood or not but for our sake it needs the witnesse of the Church because otherwise we are not certaine what bookes are sacred and divine or what is the true and proper meaning Cap. 10. Respondeo Christus Hitherto wee finde these authors concurring with the Councell in the sense aforesaid and thereby our Assumption at num 7. is confirmed wherein we say Their Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath an office to determine which is the true faith that is what is revealed and what is not revealed and we must know that their judgement is not a private opinion but the faith of their Church Suarez saith so expresly in the place alledged and the thing it selfe doth say no lesse of them both for they agree with the Councell and all on their side agree with them none of theirs doe deny what they affirme If any man think not so he must shew the contrary which yet I never found Wherefore we need not doubt of the conclusion wherein we maintaine That their Church is the foundation of their faith being the thing we vndertooke to prooue num 7. Though this be enough to manifest the matter yet I will adde some other proofe from the testimony of their Church to iustifie the same conclusion because I would haue the thing made easie to our vnderstanding as well as proved to be true by force of argument Now Bellarmine doth all this in most plaine and evident manner in the place following The word of God delivered by the Prophets and Apostles is the first foundation of our faith for therefore we beleeve whatsoever we beleeue because God hath revealed it by his Prophets and Apostles but wee adde that besides this first foundation there is another secondary foundation needfull to wit the testimony of the Church for we know not certainly what God hath revealed but by the testimony of the Church Therefore our faith cleaveth to Christ the first truth revealing those mysteries as to the first foundation It cleaves also to Peter that is to the Pope propounding and expounding these mysteries as to a second foundation Cap. 10. Respondeo ad hoc If any man desire to see this precept manifested by practise he does that also after this sort Wee are to know that a Proposition or Article of faith is concluded in such a Syllogisme as this Whatsoever God hath revealed is true But this God hath revealed Therefore this is true Of the first of these Propositions no man makes any question The second is held for certaine truth amongst all Catholiks for it is grounded vpon the testrmony of the Church Cap. 10. Respondeo verbum To conclude I will report another testimony of his whereby the whole frame of this building is brought to perfection and for that end thus he writeth A precept of faith is to be prooued foure wayes 1. By expresse testimony of Scripture with a declaration of the Church 2. By euident deduction out of expresse Scripture with a declaration of the Church being added thereunto 3. Out of Gods word not written by the Apostles but deliuered from hand to hand 4. By eutdent deduction out of the word of God deliuered from hand to hand De Purga lib. 1. cap. 15. Haec sive Neither is this doctrine Bellarmines fancy but it is the Romish faith for it is warranted by the testimony of all the learned in that Church and the Decree of the Trent Councell already recited n. 8. for when it giues the Church the office to Iudge of the sense of the Scriptures it grants that the Scriptures are in being already and therefore that they are the revealers of the Sacred verities and consequently the first foundation of our faith When it subiecteth the sense onely of the Scriptures to the iudgement of the Church it giues the Church authority to propound expound and apply the Scriptures and therefore it makes the Church a second foundation and no more By this time I hope it is evident enough that the authority of the Church is the foundation that is the next and formall reason of their faith and beleeving and that is the thing wee seeke for Now we should prooue that this foundation of their Faith is false and erronious for that is the second thing propounded in this chapter num 7. But I will spare that labour at this time because none of ours as I conceiue will call it into question besides if any do Mr. Wotton in the book recited even now hath made it manifest against all opposers pag. 21. num 5. c. If therefore any man desires to see it I referre him thither because it fitteth not this businesse to transcribe it And thus much may suffice in proofe of our Assumption propounded cap. 3. num 1. CHAP. 5. Defendeth this sentence The Romish faith is erronius BOth our opponents are mightily gravelled with this sentence and all such as hold
deale not against our betters for to say the least we are in the roome and behalfe of our Church which wee dare preferre before all her Opponents for they haue subscribed vnto her and thereby they haue acknowledged and done homage vnto her Lordship and Dominion Wee quarrell the persons of men in enuy to their aduancement and honours because he that said thus now said so long and often before with the approbation of our whole Church representatiue and without blame of them that doo now accuse him But is this true our Opponents say so but their proofe is insusficient because in it selfe 't is vntrue and nought in the inference perhaps their party avouched thus much before and yet not seene or not regarded for who would suspect or misdoubt such a friend as he seemed and was accounted If we were glasiers or the sonnes of a glasier perhaps he might see our secret thoughts and intentions but because we are not we must not be laughed out nor aâ—sâ—ised because we oppose not vnto any mans honour and adnancement We cast a stone that hitteth our Mother If that be so if wee haue done it and still avow the deed let vs be laughed out or despised choose them whether but this is impossible wee cast no stones at all by our office we hold vp our Buckler to defend our Mother and to beare of such stones as are cast by others if any stone hits our Mother it is that which is cast at the Church of Rome for that is the thing in question If that stone hit our Mother these Opponents must laugh her out or dispise her for her labour for 't is shee that cast it we doe no more but iustifie her casting If these Opponents will laugh her out or dispise her let them do so to vs also for good reason the Mother Child should share alike stand or fall together We cause our Church to suffer because we father a strange and vntrue tenant vpon her Now we know we shall not be laughed out nor dispised for this because we say of her no more no not one word lesse or more then she hath said vnto vs. If thus to impose deserues laughter and dispite then to deny her to say what indeed she hath said deserues laughter and dispite for the case is the same in both It that be so then our present Opponents must be laughed out and dispised for they deny her to say what she hath said so much the more they deserve to bee laughed out and dispised because they deny the thing wherein sence it selfe even their owne eyes doth avow and cannot be deceived thus far touching the thing which concernes our selues They meane not to speake a word in behalfe of the impure Church of Rome but rather if it were not done already they would vncouer her nakednesse and abhomination And we are content to admit their pretence because such deepe protestations and serious cravings goes with it but notwithstanding they gaine nothing for two reasons 1. because their deed cries loud and inforceth strongly to bring vs backe againe to Rome I say to Rome even vnto that Rome which they call impure for if they haue writen truly no man can deny to enter commons with them even in those things which these Opponents call impure because from them we may argue thus the Romish Church can yeild salvation to her members therfore it is the safest way to ioyn to her seeing all sides agree in the Antecedent but vnsafe it is to ioyn with other Churches for 't is doubtfull and in question whether salvation can there be had or no and thus some of that Church haue reasoned against vs if any say with vs is perfection and puritie of doctrine with them is heresie and defection he saith Nothing sufficient to keepe vs from Rome because if there were any power herein for that end it is because their heresie and defection in the event is able to hinder salvation but the Romish heresie and defection according to these Opponents is not able in the event to hinder salvation because with them The foundation is held which hath the property of that wine which will not mingle with poyson though a great quantity thereof be put vnto it yea such an Antidote it is and a thing so soveraigne that it will destroy much poyson and at last quite overcome it If all this be true who would not be a Papist seeing with them we finde enough to persuade vs for who would not yeeld to tread the way to heaven and nothing to disswade vs for no wise man will be afraid of the thing that cannot hurt him and this is the case betweene the Romish Church and vs if these Opponents may be believed if they say They did not perceiue the issue of their doctrine then must we blame them as heedlesse and inconsiderate what will they be our Iustructers Shall their I reatises serue to giue vs Instruction Shall Cato be compelled to come in and see and censure and yet such fowle and grosse faults bee committed Moreover if salvation may be had in the Romish Church and their heresies cannot hinder it then doubtlesse there is absoIntely nothing sufficient to bar vs their communion seeing they doe as strongly avouch their doctrine to be pure as these Opponents doe condemne it as impure In this case what shall most men living doe if they be seduced to Popery If a Priest should say with vs thou maist goe to heaven as your owne side confesse with vs is nothing to presse thee downe to hell for though we were as bad as you make vs yet by the confession of yours we haue an Antidote that in the event will preserue thee from the evill and reserue thee for the good Lastly it can not appeare that we are blamed iustly for how much you say against vs so much if not more we can say for vs we haue the Records of all ages for vs Councels Fathers history are strongly on our side we haue alledged them and you cannot gainsay vs so as now either satisfie this last or yeeld to ioyne wich vs for your selues doe teach the two first and you may not deny them now in this case what can a reasonable man doe He sees nothing but doubtfull and difficult questions to keepe him from Popery and himselfe not able to determine those doubts I say who would not resolue thus I will ioyne with them not with you seeing I haue nothing to debarr me but some doubtfull questions that may be true and may not be true yet howsoever they cannot hurt me If these Opponents would haue vs belieue as they greatlydesire that they are enemies to Rome and friends to vs they must haue esteemed the Church of Rome to want the nature of that Church whereof Christ is the head for that makes all sure that barrs the doore and shutteth vp all entrance vnto her no man will be so mad to joyn
writes the word the second way then folly is his name and madnesse is with him But who is it that he offers to instruct Not schollers in a Grammar schoole no no these are to meane for him to worke vpon It is his Mother whome he must deale withall his Mother I say that bred him and nourisheth him must be subiect now to his rod and ferula O happy Mother may she well say that hath such a Child so ripe that in so few yeares can instruct his Mother and thrice happy Sonne that is growne vp with such speed that so soone as he can but crawle he presently can sustaine and succour his Mother I know this will be Catoes sentence therefore Cato speake and spare not wee know thou wilt say as we doe therefore we will heare and feare not He telleth vs Gods Spirit dwels with him and by the inspiration thereof he hath vnderstanding Therefore he must speake you you must not â—eare them If he proue the Antecedent I grant the consequent but that he cannot nay 't is impossible Gods spirit is fish of temperance humility meeknesse kindenesse loue so as he that is taught by that Maister hath learned these lessons His schollers are not proud vaine bosters of themselues their minds are not lifted vâ—â—n them but they esteeme others better then themselue If we lay our present Opponent to this rule in what case shall we find him agrees he with it Does he notswarue from it Let this title and conclusion of his Epistle giue Iudgement I say no more though I know Cato would say no lesse yea we are sure he would exceed us much and thus am I come to an end of my answere to such things as concerne the disputation in common and therefore I will proceed in the next place to a formall dispute of the question it selfe CHAP. 1. Of the question and parties to the disputation IN the following discourse we inquire after these two questions 1 Whether the present Romish Church be the true Church or not 2 Whether the professors of the present Romish faith can be saved or not These two doe mutually imply each other So as we may truely say if she be a Church then is there saluation in her if salvation then a Church and contrarywise wherefore the proofe of the first confirmes the latter The parties to the present disputation are our Church and all her true and lawfull children vpon the one part And two of her vnnatutall children make the other part Which of them hath the truth I hope by Gods grace openly to discover before we end this Treatise Our Church holds the negatiue in the first question and hath set her sentences downe in the second Homilie for whitsontide in these words 1 The state of the present Church of Rome is so far wide from the nature of the true Church that nothing can be more 2 The Bishops of Rome and their adherents are not the true Church of Christ 3 The true Church is not at Rome The first and second of the alledged sentences are expressely found barely set downe as I haue alledged them and they are sufficient to let vs know the faith of our Church in the matter in hand The third is necessarily implyed by our Church at these words If it be possâ—ble for Gods spirit to be there where the true Church is not then is it at Rome In this latter sentence our Church presumes that the true Church is not at Rome otherwise the inference would be fond and ridiculous and indeed the Disputation in that place being framed according to Art standeth thus Where the holy Ghost is there is the true Church But at Rome there is not the true Church Therefore the holy Ghost is not at Rome The Proposition is pursued after the words last alledged the Assumption is confirmed by arguments going before Thus our Church by repeating the same conclusion often sheweth vs how serious she is in the matter and by often varying her manner of speaking we cleerely vnderstand her meaning The foresaid two opponents doe hold the affirmatiue against our Church namely The Church of Rome as she is at this present is a true Church As page 30 in the one and page 18. in the other Before we enter vpon the discussion hereof we must first vnderstand the termes wherein this question is delivered By Romish Church we meane the Bishops of Rome and their adherents that is to say all such both Clergie and Laytie which liue in the Romish Religion and communicate in her faith and make vp one society or body By true Church we vnderstand a Society or congregation which hath these essentiall qualities that concurre vnto the being and forme of a Church And herein all sides agree as the Reader may finde in the Homilie alledged and in both our opponents in page 13 of the one and page 15 17. and 100. of the other We must also further knowe that the Râ—mish faith consisteth either in the Vniversall consent of their learned or in the Decrees of their Councels or in both The first is their Catholick the second is their divine faith So as he that professeth their religion and communicates in their faith beleeues as they doe in the manner aforesaid Hitherto I haue alledged the Homilie as the doctrine of our Church and I presume none will reproue me for it because all that booke is solemnly confirmed as such by our State It is to be read in all our Churches by publike appointment and is subscribed vnto by all our Ministers as conteining Doctrine godly wholesome and necessary I say it is so subscribed vnto because the 36 Canon requireth that no person shal be received into the Ministry nor suffered to exercise any part of the Ministeriall function in any place within this Realme except he shall first subscribe amongst other things vnto the 39 Articles of Religion agreed vpon by the whole Clergy Anno 1562. Now the 36 Canon in commanding subscription to the said 39 Articles doth also consequently command subscription to the bookes of Homilies because the 35 Article doth no more but ratifie confirme the former and second booke of Homilies Now if the present Homilie be the doctrine of our Church then the sentences alledged out of the same can be no lesse for they are such a maine and principall part thereof that the Homilie cannot subsist without them And thus I hope every Reader hath direction enough touching the state of the question and the parties to the Disputation CHAP. 2. Of our first Argument for the maine question and of their generall answer thereunto OVr Church in the Homilie already recited hath an argument expresly thus The true Church is built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the present Romish Church is not built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets for they reteyne not the sound and pure doctrine of Christ
The second distribution is as fond if not worse then the first but I will not mispend mine owne and the Readers time about it It was meet for mee to let this opponent see his weaknesse in Logick because he vaunteth so much of his skill that waies in his Epistle and throughout his whole booke We should now come to the application of this answer to some part of our argument that we might know what he denies and what he grants and why but I am altogether to seeke for that because he brings nothing that leades vs thereunto Wherefore I come to himselfe and say in his owne words pag. 3. _____ Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a new paire of Sâ—zors When he hath done so he shall haue further answer and in the meane time I will set downe and examine what his partner B. saith to our argument now in hand therein I will take onely the summe of his answer and no more to saue mine owne labour and the Readers following the example of the schooles who alwayes run that course He beginneth his answer at p. 84. at these words We professe that we esteem c. And continues the same vnto pag. 88. As his partners answer was so is his intricate perplexed vnapplyed but with this difference he was briefer as liking Logick and not Rethorick this larger as loving Rethorick and not Logick nothing could be made of his Something as I conceiue may be made of this wherefore I will set downe that something with the best warrant of his owne discourse Thus then he seemes to answere The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles purely taught without mixture of error is the genuine marke of the true Church So as where that is there followes the appellation of a true Church and from thence we may argue thus Wheresoever Gods word is purely preached and the Sacraments duly administred there is a true Church And so farre the Proposition is true and agreeable to the intent of our Church and the Assumption is so also that severeth the doctrine of Christ from the present Romish Church but then the conclusion importeth no more but that she is not an orthodox Church which is not in question The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught purely without mixture of errour is not so essentiall to the true Church that so soone as vnsound doctrine is mingled with the truth of Gods word and the Sacraments vnduely administred that which was a Church should cease to be one In this sense the Proposition is false for such doctrine belongs vnto the perfection and glory of the Church and she may be without them as the children of Israel were many dayes without a Sacrifice and an Ephod Hosea 3.4 yet still they were Gods Church It may fall out that they may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution In this sense the PropositioÌ„ is not according to the intent of our Church which meant not so strictly to tye Gods Church to these signes as if all were excluded from the Church which doe not rightly participate of the word and Sacraments in the Iudgement of Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon 19. art propo 8. Lastly in this sense the Assumption is false that makes a reall totall division between the present Romish Church all revealed truth we say she hath not abolished all truth but retaineth some in their disputations and as we thinke more in their Sermons Thus I hope I haue exactly expressed his intent if I haue missed in any thing the fault is his not mine he may thanke me for my paines because I haue done for him what he could not at least what he hath not done for himselfe that I may vse his partners words pag. 5. Now we will take it into severall peeces and examine them in severall chapters following CHAP. 4. Prooving this sentence The present Romish faith is erronius THe examination of his last answer to our Assumption wherin he does attribute some purity of Christs doctrine vnto the Church of Rome is sufficient to determine the worth of our argument now in hand and the whole question it selfe for if the Romish Church be all errour and Antichristian that is if her faith be erronious then without doubt she is none of Gods Church The Church of England in her Assumption now in question meant to say so as I haue already said cap. 2. n. 1. and will now prooue by Gods assistance If the Romish Church retaine some of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour then 1. Christs doctrine cannot be denied her in termes without limitation 2. She is not changed into a new guise nor hath forsaken the commandements of God to set vp her owne constitutions 3. She is not without the holy Ghost But according to our Church 1. Christs doctrine is denied her in terms without limitation for thus lye the words of her Assumption The present Romish Church is not built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets retaining the sound and pure doctrine of Christ Iesu neither doe they order the Sacraments in such sort as he did first institute and ordaine them 2. She is changed into a new guise by chopping and changing by adding and plucking away They haue forsaken the commandements of God to set vp their owne constitutions 3. They are without the Spirit of God Therefore according to our Church in her Assumption the present Romish Church does not retaine some part of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour but she is all errour and her faith erronious Many learned amongst vs haue so vnderstood our Church and I will name some in stead of all Bishop Iewell in the defence of his Apology pag. 4. cap. 11. divis 1. chargeth her in absolute termes that she had departed from Gods ward and more plainly pag. 5. cap. 13. divis He saith the same thing in these words Thâ—se men haue brâ—ken in pecces all the popes and conduits they haue stopped all the springs and choaked vp the fountaine of living water with dirt and myre He repeates the same thing in other termes cap. 15. divis 2. thus In the Romish Church we cannot home the word of God sinetrely taught nor the Sacraments rightly administred nor the name of God duely called vpon and wherein was nothing able to stay any wise man or one that hath consideration of his own safety I will conclude with his words in the same Apologie part 6. cap. 22. divis 2. where he saith that the present Church of Rome hath vtterly forsaken the Catholike faith Doct. Reynolds in his 5. Conclusions Preface at the 6. doth charge the present Romish Church to be distempered not with a sicknesse that hindreth the functions of life but with such a one as for it selfe makes her past hope of recouery and namely she serues not God with a holy worship nor beleeved God with a holy faith as he hath commanded
it wherefore in both their Epistles Dedicatory they propound it and blame it as a thorne in their eyes that may not be indured Our opponent B. disputeth against this at large but according as I haue done before so will I doe now his long and tedious discourse shall be contracted into a narrow roome least the reader be wearied with the length and pusled with the matter yet still his owne words and true intent shal be followed Thus then he sayes 1 In the Church of Rome is some good 2 They teach well touching the Trinity 3 The Dominicans maintaine Gods free grace against mans freewill 4 Much good is in the twelue bookes of Alvarez and in the interpretations and Commentaries of Maldonat Lorynus and the rest of the Iesuites pag 90. 5 Wee agree on both sides in these poynts following 1 That the bookes of the old Testament written in Hebrew are Canonicall 2 That we are instified by faith 3 That God hath made heaven and hell for mens soules after death 4 That God may be worshipped in Spirit without an Image 5 That wee are to pray vnto God by Christ 6 That there be two Sacraments 7 That Christ is really received in the Lords Supper 8 That Christ hath made one oblation of himselfe vpon the Crosse for the redemption and satisfaction for the sinnes of the whole world 9 Vnder the Papacy is much good nay all yea the very kernell of Christianity pag. 39. 40. 41. I answer our Opponent C. pag. 4. and 5. blames the man that affirmes without pooofe and makes it a Law that such an affirmation is as soone denyed as made This is the case of this opponent He telleth vs a tale of their agreement with vs in diverse particulars but he alledgeth no author book or chapter whereby we may try whether he sayes true or not if then we deny that they and wee doe thus agree all his building falls to the ground according to his partners sentence pag 4. Thus soundly he answers to the thing that doth most vrge him but for this time I am content to say they and we doe thus agree yet behold his case from himselfe pag. 82. Wee heare of a great cry and little woll pag. 83. of a man whose skill in Logick was so good that hee prooued what was granted and being granted was to no purpose Now I commend him for so doing because I perceiue he spake the very truth but himselfe gaines nothing thereby for of him it is verified to the full and that in this present answer wherein he spends the greatest part of 7 pages before he ends it viz. 39. 40. 41. 86. 87. 90. 91. yet ten words had served the turn as well as all this stâ—r If he had said no more but thus The Romish Church agrees with vs in many divine sentences he had beene as neere his purpose as now therefore we haue a great cry and little woll If he reply that all the rest prooues that sentence I reioynd I am content it shall be so because that shewes his great skill in Logick for then he prooues the thing that none will deny and being granted serues not his purpose which none will doe but the good Logician which his partner describeth If we frame this answer with the present question according to art and all the parts thereof be true then it is to the purpose else not thus then it must be framed They that agree with vs in the particulars recited their faith is not erronious But the Romish Church agrees with vs in the particulars recited Therefore their faith is not erronious But no part of this Argument is good The Proposition is not true and why may I not say so seeing in it selfe and by it selfe it is not manifest neither does he offer any proofe for it and now I haue denied it his whole building is come to ruine according to his partners-rule pag. 4. even now recited To the Proposition I answer that it presumes that the forenamed Articles are true and every way the same thing with the Romish faith and therevpon giues one state or condition to those Articles and that faith attributing truth to the second from the truth of the first These Articles in some sense are true and so farre the Proposition is true also but those Articles and the Romish faith are not the same thing but this extends further then them and himselfe even he that now answeres being iudge pag. 40. He writes thus To the Scriptures they adde Traditions to the Hebrew Canon the Apocrypha to faith workes to Heaven and Hell Purgatory and so forth in the rest whereupon his Proposition beggs the question and therefore it hath no force to inferre the conclusion His partner C. pag. 2. cannot abide beggery but this doth loue it wee le but in the meane time he is a goodly Disputer that can prooue nothing vnlesse we grant him what himselfe denies this is enough to satisfie this Argument because this feigned surmise is the first and originall foundation thereof But out of our store of exceptions hereunto for this time we will forgiue him this fault and proceed to the rest We agree with the Romish Church in the recited Articles as they are Propositions that is they and we pronounce the same thing as true so farr the Assumption is granted but the Proposition is denied because faith and a true Proposition really differs the one is no more but a subiect and predicate rightly ioyned together whereupon truth in all Propositions is the same namely the adequation of the thing and the Proposition but in faith there is also the foundation wherevpon wee beleeue from whence it comes to passe that faith is of different kindes some divine and some humane as I haue shewed In the recited Articles wee agree not with the Romish as they are Articles of faith For in them wee doe really and essentially differ They pronounce them to bee true vpon the authority of their Church which is indeed humane we vpon the authority of Christ the Revealer which by joynt consent is divine These things being true as they are most true his Assumption at num 4. cannot be true and consequently there is no meanes to excuse the Româ—sh faith from error nor cause to giue her the name and nature of a true Church which is the thing we seeke for CHAP. 6. Defendeth this sentence The faith of the Church is not right and pure false and erronious together viz. in different Articles WE must now goe back againe to the rest of opponent B. his answere left vnsatisfied in cap. 3. num 8. The first branch whereof we are now to deale withall hath these words The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught purely without mixture of errour is not so essentiall to the true Church that so soone as an vnsound doctrine is mingled with the truth of Gods word and the Sacraments vnduely administred that which was a Church
should cease to be one In these words this sentence is implied The faith of the Church may be right and true false and erronious together viz. in different Articles And he does expressely avouch the same in divers passages of his booke viz. The present Church of Rome is corrupted and deformed yet hath the true essence of a Church pag. 30. The Church of Rome hath a religion more after Homer then after the Scriptures and yet holdeth fundamentall truth pag. 4. In the Popes Arithmetick Articles of faith are added pag. 39. Such affirmatiues of ours as concerne the foundation of Faith are professed by the Church of Rome pag 41. And nothing is more frequent with him then words to this effect The Church of Rome that is all those which lying in that religion make vp one body or societie is not Babylon in the Revelation but that Babylon is a faction in that Church pag. 100. The Papacy is not the Church but the disease of the Church The Papacy is in the Church as an accident in the subiect we must distinguish betwixt the Church and the Papacy pag. 28 29. Wee haue learned to distinguish betwixt the Church and the great Whore in the Church we haue communion with the Church wee seperate from Babylon pag. 101. This we deny and will maintaine the contradictory to wit The faith of the Church is not right and true false and erronious together viz. in different Articles But If some Articles of Faith be false and erronious then the Faith of the Church it false and erronious I will not now giue reason of this denyall but deferr the same till we come to the 7. Chap. where it shall be disputed so much as is requisite He brings proofe for his opinion in the words which immediately follow in the foresaid Cap. 3. n. 8. I will first dispose them according to Art and then frame my answer as shall be needfull Thus then he disputes If the Faith of the Church cannot be true and erronious together then where error in faith is there cannot be a true Church But where error in faith is there may bee a true Church for first our Church thinks so Article 19. according to Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon the place Propo. 8. 2 The children of Israell did abide many dayes without a Sacrifice and Ephod c. Hosea 3.4 and without Circumcision the space of 40. yeares Iosh 5.6 yet then were they the Church of God 3 The word and Sacraments may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution I answer the consequence of the Proposition we grant as very necessary But the Assumption is false Wee say that errour in faith and the Church are incompatible and it is the Argument of our Church already alledged out of the Homily To all his proofes ioyntly I answere They are farr to weake to vphold this waighty matter if this assumption be not true then his whole cause falles to the ground Himselfe confesseth as wee haue heard that the present Romish Church is guiltie of heresy and therefore can be no true Church vnlesse error in faith may be in the Church For herefie at least comprehends error in faith Wherefore it stood him vpon to gather his witts and vnite his forces together to strengthen and mainteyne this businesse we looked for pregnant proofe out of Gods word for doubtlesse if this were true we should find a manifest record for it because God hath not left matters of this importance for man to grope and guesse at So loving and wise was the Lord when he appoynted the meanes of mans salvation But loe no such thing is tendred and therefore wee may conclude no such thing is in being and consequently wee may set downe our rest and say doubtlesse the faith of the true Church cannot be stained with error yet that the misery of this cause may the better appeare I will vncover the skirts of all his proofes in perticular and single out the one from the other The authority of our Church prevaileth much with me so as that alone would silence my tongue and suspend my iudgement but it will doe little good to this opponent B. for he that slighteth yea reiecteth nay disputeth against her doctrine in things supreame must not craue her ayde in things belonging to the mean and thus stands it with this opponent who mainteynes the cheife question in this businesse against her and at this instant laboureth all he can to refell the Proposition of her argument But how may it appeare that our Church makes for him He brings nothing but the authority of Mr. Rogers and that is no greater then his owne and consequently thus he sayes our Church thought so because I say she did thinke so but what if our Church and this opponent sayes shee thought not so then I hope the matter thus farr will be at an end From this Opponent I argue thus He that saith all Gods revealed truth vniuersally essentially and reciprically belongs to the Church frees the faith of the Church from error But this opponent doth so for thus he writes pag 13. The true Church is a company of men professing Gods revealed truth now in this sentence he makes all Gods revealed truth to belong to the Church vniuersally essentially and reciprically because 1. The words themselues in the common vse of men doe lye so 2. According to Aristotle Poster lib. 1. cap 44 33. lib. 2. cap. 3. Top. lib. 6. cap 1. Thom. 2. dist 27. q. 1. art 2. ad 9m. Aliaco quest de resumpt lit q Richardus de Trin. lib. 4. cap. 21. fol. 108. Every exact or perfite definition does so but this Authors sentence alledged is an exact definition pag. 13. Therefore this opponent frees the faith of the Church from error and consequently according to him our Church doth so too for shee hath defined the Church art 19. iust as he hath done in the sentence we alledged If art 19. subiecteth the faith of the Church vnto error then wee must reade it thus The visible Church is a Congregation in which some part of the pure word of God is preached and the Sacraments in some things be only administred But art 19. must not be so read least the words of the Article themselues be perverted and some man say the avoiding of diversities of opinions and establishing of consent touching true religion was not thereby intended contrary vnto the protestation of our Church in the title to all the Articles in generall Therefore Art 19. subiecteth not the faith of the Church vnto errour His second proofe lyeth thus The Israelites wanted Sacrifice and Circumcision Therefore the faith of the Church is subiect to errour I answere this geere hangs not together so well as Harp and Harrow for they sound alike in something because both of them begin with a letter but here is nothing like The lewes Church was an Infant and not established
onely it is meet that we obserue in his Epistle Dedicatory that he maketh the point now in hand one of those whereat he trembles when he does but heare it If there be any cause why it will shew it selfe by his arguments and answeres for it if he be naked in them we may conclude that he feares without a cause and runnes when none pursues Enough hath bin said already to driue this conclusion to the head we haue proved that the Romish faith is erronious by arguments that are not nor can be refelled and who would require more to argue her faith to be vnable and altogether vnfit to lead a man to heaven Can an erronious faith shew a man the way to heaven Surely it can not because it sits beside the divine Revelation which is the onely record wherein the way to life is referved for vs. I say heaven and eternall happinesse is only to be found in Gods Revelation and who will not beleiue me for where the end is aboue nature the meanes thereto must needes be so also What need I then to trouble my selfe and the Reader with more arguments But seeing it will not saue our labour some are so contentious and will not rest in truthes apparent therefore such must be met withall and their endeavours prevented as the frugall man weedes his feild that his grayne may be the better vnto sight and service CHAP. 9. Our Opponent B. his first Argument WEe are now come to the second part of this Discourse wherein the Arguments for the contrary party are propounded and refuted and I will begin with our Opponent B. who brings his first Argument pag. 31. to this effect The seat of Antichaist is the true Church for hee sitts in Gods Temple 2 Thess 2.4 But the present Romish Church is the seate of Antichrist Therefore the present Romish Church is the true Church The Proposition of this Argument is set forth pag 36. The conclusion is implyed in the title of Chap 8 pag 31 The assumption is wanting I answere he is confident that no man can deny the Proposition pag. 38. but sayes nothing of the Assumption and no maruaile for that beggs the question by presuming that the Pope is Antichrist a point to many more doubtfull then the present conclusion But that fault though it spoiles all for this time shall goe for nothing The Proposition is not onely false but it is impossible to be true for the seat of Antichrist is a certaine space or place that receiveth the person of Antichrist and where he governes Reuel 16.19.17.9.18 â—0 The true Church is a society of men professing the revealed truth If then this profession be that place or necessarily flowes from the internall being thereof which is impossible then his Proposition may be true The Assumption hath the same fault the Romish Church is a society professing their religion now it is not possible for the person of Antichrist to be contained in the profession of religion as in a space or place To conclude if we put this Syllogisme into its true and naturall termes these will be the words thereof The space containing the person of Antichrist is that society of men which professeth the revealed verities But that society which professeth the Romish religion is the space containing Antichrist Therefore that society which profess eth the Romish religion is that society which professeth the revealed verities But every child that knowes chalke from cheese will laugh at this therefore it shall passe as ridiculous He does imagine that we will say in answere to this Argument that Antichristianity cannot argue the Church to be Christian being the bane and plaine overthrow of Christianity Pag. 36. I answer we doe not thus answer to this Argument neither need we vnlesse our answer should be as fond as his proofe and experience will now iustifie the same we haue answered otherwayes and yet his reason is refelled Keep your kindnesse for your friend and answer for vs when wee need it wee know Sophocles said true The guift of an enemy is no guift In the rest of this 8. chapter he hunts the wild goose chase but all his long discourse and many words amounteth in the totall vnto thus much The Iewes Church in their worst estate was the true Church of God Some of Gods people are in Babylon Therefore many heretofore and some at this day being outwardly of the Church of Rome wee may iustly notwithstanding challenge to our selves The Opponent C. shall answer him pag. 3. Prooue and apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue two new paire of Sizors A recompence too great for such a workeman yet let me tell you the Iewes Church at no time was equall or stood in the same termes or condition with the present Romish Church for they alwayes retained the true and vndoubted foundation of faith they relied onely vpon Gods authority the revealer of sacred things so as what ever they believed they so believed because God revealed it they thrust not in the authority of man between the sacred revelation and their faith and credence so as still they enioyed at least the meanes for getting of divine faith and consequently salvation it selfe but so it is not with the Romish Church as manifestly appeareth in former passages cap. 4. num 7. c. whereupon we may conclude Though the Iewish Church was the true Church of God yet that will not inferre the Romish Church to be so also Moreover the Iewes defection was in matter of practise rather then of precept when they failed in doctrine it was peculiar to some not vniversall and common to all that Church their errour was matter of opinion not of faith for no publick authority of theirs did command that opinion or misbeliefe to bee vniversally received as being divinely revealed But with the Church of Rome the matter is altogether otherwise Their errour is first in precept and then in practise this errour is common to all in that Church no man can be exempted therefrom vnlesse he will professe himselfe to be none of theirs Againe that errour of the Romish Church is adiudged to be revealed by God and commaunded to be received by all the members of that Church by an authority that pretendeth freedome from erring and power of enioying so as whatsoever is so commanded must be obeyed without delay or inquiring as is shewed cap. 4. num 7. c. wherefore we need not doubt to say the one lost not the truth of a Church the other hath not the truth of a Church We may allow God a share in some that dwell in Babylon but what is that share Even persons elected but not yet called and vnto such God commandeth that they Come out of Babylon and they shall heare and obey in their appointed time But what is this to vs Elected persons not called are such members of the Church as are vnknowne to vs and therefore are reckoned to appertaine to the Church invisible but
the Scriptures and of Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of humane faith though it be in words never so plaine and expresse yet it giues not being to the Church for the Church subsisteth in it selfe and differeth from all other societies by supernaturall not by naturall or humane endowments and this I take as granted In the second sense the Proposition is true namely The profession even in so many words of these fundamentall truthes There be Scriptures Christ came to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith is the very soule of the Church and so essentiall therto that without it there can be no Christian Church and where that is the Church is also because it is so operatiue wheresoever it doth encline that all other things requisite to a Christian Church does follow according as this Opponent writeth pag. 21.29.34 CHAP. 12. The Romish Church directly denies salvation by Christ BVt in this sense the Assumption is false the present Romish Church does in words and professedly deny the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners according vnto the voice of divine faith and I proue it thus They that doe not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners doe professedly deny his comming to saue sinners for in this case a not confession is a professed negation and so accounted by our Saviour who saith he that is not with me is against me he that gathereth not scattereth Matth. 12.30 And good reason hee should so esteeme it for such a not confession is a voluntary omission of our duty This is the will of my heavenly Father that yee beleeue on him whom hee hath sent Ioh. 6.29 Even all men whatsoever because the earth is his inheritance and the vttermost ends thereof is his possession Psal 2.8 Wee see the truth hereof in the omission of any duty Hee that withheld his tythes is held professedly to deny the paying of tythes Mal. 3.8 He that honoureth not his parents is reckoned professedly to dishonour his Parents Matth. 15.6 This Proposition then being very evident I thus assume But the Romish Church doth not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith because the faith of that Church by meanes of the foundation thereof is humane and not divine as hath beene manifestly proved cap. 4. num 7. c. He thinks to shrowd himselfe vnder the authority of our Church which hee vrgeth negatiuely thus Our Church does charge her to erre in matter of faith Art 19 but not with direct deniall of salvation by Christ Therefore the Romish Church is not so to bee charged I answer 1. he takes the authority of our Church to be of moment I demand then why he disputes against her all this while yea against her doctrine subscribed by himselfe 2. The consequence is nought our Churches silence argues not the Romish Church to be innocent for this question of denying or not denying was not in being when her faith was published This was done Anno 1562. that began Anno 1588. or neere thereupon for any thing I can yet learne or this Opponent proue 3. The Antecedent is false for two reasons 1. Errours in matters of faith may be a direct deniall of salvation by Christ for he that so denies errs in matter of faith and we must thinke our Church meant so because her words will beare it and this Opponent cannot shew the contrary 2. Our Church in the second Homily for Whitsontide often times already alledged does deny her to be built vpon Christ the corner stone in that foundation and that importeth a direct deniall of salvation by Christ because he that sits besides that foundation shall goe without salvation This proofe and defence being considered we may safely rest in this conclusion The Romish Church according to the voice of divine faith professedly denies Christs comming to saue sinners and accordingly we haue the victory and ours is the day according to this Opponents offer and our acceptation num 4. chap. 11. I might proceed to proue their professed deniall of the Scriptures vpon the same ground but I forbeare to doe it because the Reader may see this Argument serues for both that and this by changing the termes This Opponent seemeth to qualifie his former recited promise and calleth vs as he thinkes to a new reckoning pag. 22 23. wherein hee writeth thus They overthrow the foundation directly to whom Christ is an execration And to tread vnder foot the sonne of God to count the blood of the covenant wherewith all wee are sanctified an vnholy thing and to doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 is directly to deny the foundation And then he assumes in these words Of which crime whosoever is able let him indict the Church of Rome producing sufficient evidence thereof and whosoever shall open his mouth to plead for them let him be guilty of all the dishonour that ever hath beene done to the Sonne of God and lyable to the Apostles curse 1 Cor. 16.22 I answere this is his last refuge if therefore he failes in this he is gone for ever In true forme he reasoneth thus They that directly deny salvation by Christ are guilty as aforesaid But the Romish Church are not so guilty Therefore the Romish Church denies not directly salvation by Christ I may except against the Assumption with better reason then he can argue for it wherefore this I say The Romish Church is so guilty for They that know and belieue Christs comming to saue sinners onely by naturall reason and humane faith They tread him vnder foote account his blood vnholy and doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 because the naturall man perceiveth or receiveth not the things of God as they are the things of God forasmuch as they are spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2.14 The very wisedome of the flesh is enmitie vnto God Rom. 8.7 But the Romish Church does know and beleiue Christs comming to saue sinners only by naturall reason and humaine faith for all their knowledge and beleiving ariseth vpon the teaching of the Pastors of their Church which is meerly humaine because they haue no Commission for such teaching as appeareth Cap. 4. num 7. c. If any man doe iudge that the place alledged Heb. 10.29 mean no more but thus then I rest here as in a sufficient answer to this argument and claim this Opponents finall promise last mentioned and so we are at an end for this cause the day is ours we must carry the victory and the signes thereof leading these Opponents in tryumph If the Apostle be vnderstood to speake of more then this then I deny the Proposition as wanting the very shew of truth I say some men directly deny salvation by Christ who are not guiltie as aforesaid and I haue two reasons for it the first is this Iewes and Pagans are not guilty as aforesaid for the parties so guilty haue received the knowledge of the truth
and afterwards sinne wilfully ver 26. by forsâ—king the Assembly of the faithfull vers 25. and therefore are certeinely subiected vnto Gods fiery devouring indignation and iudgment ver 27. But Iewes and Pagans deny salvation by Christ in the iudgement of this Opponent pag 22. Secondly if all that directly deny salvation by Christ are thus guiltie then this guiltines in the Apostles intent is the totall and adaequate nature of that denyall otherwise the Proposition conteineth not an vniversall truth But this guiltines in the Apostles intent is not the totall and adaequate nature of that denyall but 〈◊〉 denyall in one speciall kinde viz. Apostacy and wilfull backsliding for thus lyes the Apostles reason If wilfull forsakers of their profession and the society of the Saints shall certainly bee punished with Gods fiery devouring indignation and judgement then let vs hold fast the profession of our faith and the assembly of the Saints without wavering But such shall be so punished for their sinne deserues it inasmuch as thereby they tread vnder foote the Sonne of God c. The Proposition and Assumption is set forth from verse 23. to the end of verse 27. and the proofe of the Assumption verse 29. being the place which we haue now in hand whereupon we may conclude Some that directly deny salvation by Christ are not thus guilty and so his Proposition is false that maketh all such deniers to be so guilty and consequently our Mother the Church of England hath the day of victory and so shall hold it These Opponents are vnder the hatches and there we will keepe them This Opponent telleth vs pag. 123. that we shall not need to proue that The Romish Church denies salvation by Christ by consequence he will pardon vs that labour to the end that the Reader should see we confesse him to be a fair adversary I answere and why does he account this pardon a favour done vs seeing himselfe does confesse the thing it selfe so often does he thinke himselfe can doe what we cannot Surely then what differs he from the Bold Braggadochiaes in the Campe whereof wee reade in his partner Opponents Epistle It may be he will say he that makes that proofe must grant that they directly hold salvation by Christ which he does and we doe not I reply he is deceived we doe say they directly hold salvation by Christ according to the voice of humane faith as I haue answered chap. 11. num 5. therefore if any thing makes the difference between his power to proue and ours It is not his affirmation and our negation but he hath skill and we haue none well let him vaunt that hath the vayne To the present matter we say we despise his pardon we craue no favour let him doe his worst wee know whose faith we maintaine and will now proue CHAP. 13. The Romish Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ IN proofe of this sentence I will content my selfe with an Argument in this forme They that directly hold salvation by Christ and other things which cannot stand therewith they by consequence deny salvation by Christ because from the second the direct dentall of the first may be necessarily concluded But the Romish Church directly holds salvation by Christ and other things that cannot stand therewith Therefore the Romish Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ This Opponent may not deny any part of this Argument because the Proposition the proofe thereof is his owne pag 23. 24. so is the Assumption pag. 26. The conclusion is gathered out of them both who therefore on this mans behalfe can except against any part thereof It may be some man may say In all the former passages we haue charged the Romish Church with a direct deniall of salvation by Christ and in this argument we free that Church from such denyall and consequently we contradict our selues so as the proofe of the one doth equally overthrow the proofe of the other and thus our opponent seemes to argue as I haue reported Cap. 11. num 3. I answer this exception may be taken off with ease for we charge them and discharge them as is aforesaid indifferent respects we say they deny salvation by Christ according vnto or in respect of divine faith we grant them the contradictory according vnto or in respect of naturall reason or humaine faith as the Reader may finde cap. 11. num 5. In regard whereof both sentences and their proofes may equally stand together without domage the one to the other If any man thinkes otherwise he must shew it by the rules of Art else no man is bound to beleiue him I answer further this direct holding of salvation by Christ which wee grant vnto them is inducement foundation enough whervpon we may charge them with the denyall of the same thing by consequence For that holding is a reall confession and accordingly doth put the thing confessed in a being sufficient whereupon it may be denyed or avoyded by inference and therefore our Proposition is true that supposeth the same And thus our Argument is sufficiently fenced against the clawes of this Opponent and therefore here I must end the matter of their denyall of salvation by Christ by consequence for none of our Opponents brings more then thus touching the same Some man perhaps would accompt it a thing worth our labour if we rested not in these Opponents confession for the truth of our Assumption but avowed the same thing by the Records of the Romish faith To whom I answer that desire is not vnmeet nor the thing hard to to be done but the present businesse and my office must not be forgotten If I entred vpon that wee rush into another question I am now to answere but hee that does that must proue This Assumption is confessed by all parties therefore it is a principle and accordingly it may make an Argument in this question therfore it must passe as a thing certain Accordingly here we would rest but our present Opponent is not so contented for hee denyes that the Romish Church may be ranked with the old Hereticks because they goe not the same way to worke with them They saith he struck neerer the head then the Church of Rome does She indeed is wandred from God and her doctrine is iniurous and contumelious to God and our Redeemer It doth gainsay the foundation of our faith but yet it is remooued a great distance therefrom raze it it doth but by a circle of consequence at the most thus he writes pag 3. 18. 24. 25. 38. 41. 127. 128. Yet he does not varnish over their opinion nor help the best foote of a lame cause forward if you will beleiue his words pag 127. For this cause therefore I will prooue the Romish Church to deny salvation by Christ by consequence direct and immediate not by a circle or meanes that comes betweene that proofe and that salvation and then wee shall know whether that Church