of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe
a part and distinct that such as reade our papers may knowe when one matter is ended or agreed vppon and doe not thrust other things in heere If you graunt it Saie so If you doe not speake directlie to this point in this place and of no other I will not heare of erring or not erring in fundamentalls or not fundamentalls I haue nothing to doe with that It shall haue a place a part I looke onelie which is the Church answearing to the description whether it be subiect to errour in any thing or be not whether it doth erre actuallie or euer hath actuallie bene in errour I meddle not here with that The thing described in Prophecie the substance of the thing the Church I looke for and haue found her by her proportion by her face it is not yours it is ours THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Wherin answeare is giuen to some exceptions made against the Vniuersalitie of the Church THe Arguments which you and your abotters make against the foresaid vniuersality of the Church S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 12. are answeared easily And whereas first as Donatists heretofore did allso you plead for your pouertie ād paucitie of adherentes that there are fewe chozen and the world full of fooles I confesse there are to many fooles indeede and haue bene euer if you consider the whole collection of all kinde of Heretickes together with Paganes and Atheistes the number whereof being infinite the world may be said to be full But what is this to the purpose since the Catholique Church notwithstanding spreds it selfe into all Natiōs ād makes some of euery nation and those verie many also wise many being called by the Pastors by the Apostles by God to Christianitie frō all natiōs amōg which many though they receaue the word and for a tyme doe well doe flinch in tyme of temptation and fall of before the end and so they be fooles too and with the foolish virgines be shut out of heauē But yet notwithstanding all this there are in the Catholique Church some wise of all nations tongues and people more then can be numbred which infalliblie will gaine the crowne of glorie 56. An other exception you make against our Church because it doth not cōmunicate with all Christians as with your cōgregation for exāple Whereunto I answeare that to the Churches vniuersalitie communion with Heretickes ād Schismatiques is not necessarie but cōmunion with or in all Natiōs and this communion the Romā Church with the rest adherent hath With Heretiques wee will not communicate and doe herein follow the instruction of our Sauiour and Sainct Paule And accordīglie the Church in former tymes would not communicate with Arians Eunomians Nestorians or with Armenians Greciās Aethiopiās or others at such tyme as they were in errour Neither was this communion necessarie to the vniuersalitie of the Church as I said before because it is not necessarie that it communicate with all persones in the world but with all Nations Nor it is necessarie that the Churches communion be at once in all nations and so continue but that in the compasse of her tyme it be in all And thus is our Religion Catholique which hath bene in all Nations one tyme or other that hetherto haue bene Christian which can be truelie said of noe other and by her great power of conuerting Nations is going on to possesse the rest of the Nations that are on earth 56. Thirdly you except against the generalitie of some Councelles wherūto the Greeke Church then deuided would not come But this is noe hindrance to the cause for to the generalitie of a Councell noe more can be required possiblie for persones them the presence and consent of the Bysshopes in communion with the Catholique Church since Catholique Pastors not heretiques are to be heard followed and obaied in matters of faith and religion These doe succeed in the promise made to the Apostles and their successors to the worldes end and in them is the whole teaching authoritie of the Church-present vnto the tyme wherin they are whether they be more or not so many as were some age before In particular to that of the Grecians I answeare that their cōsent was not necessarie to the generalitie of the Coūcelles held in the tyme they liued in Schisme and Heresie and therefore without them the Councell was Oecumenicall for that Councell is Oecumenicall which doth include the authoritie of the presēt Catholique Church It is not requisite that all Bisshops which euer were should be raised againe to life to sitt in Councell nor that such as in after ages are to come should be borne afore their tyme to make a Councell generall neither is it necessarie to call in Heretiques of all sortes It is sufficiēt to call the Bysshopes of the Catholique communion then liuinge when the Councell is to be held The Grecians in the tyme of their Schisme were not of your religion as you haue heard from their owne mouthes when you offered vnion and in your owne iudgment they held heresie as that is of the procession of the holie Ghost from the Father onelie They returned also to the communion of the Catholique Church as you may see in the Councell of Lions and Florence where East and west agreed in doctrine against your heresie and before their Schisme they had bene in the communion of the Church a thousand yeares wel neere Of Indians and Armenians you know by this what I will saie and it is not necessarie to runne ouer the same againe 57. A fourth exception is that all nations be not at one time in the Church because some are Pagā some Hereticke And hence would you make a mā haue a scruple in reciting that part of his Creed wherin he doth professe to beleeue the Catholique Church then existent when he saies his Creede Notwithstanding this obiectiō the Creed was said in the Apostles tyme by such as were in their visible cōmunion and must and will be said as long as the world endures and he that saieth it if he beleeues Gods word and promise may securely ād must beleeue that still there is a Catholique Church which Church hath communion with all Natiōs though this communion in all the latitude be not existent at that tyme but some was before some is to follow after as the Church it selfe taken whollie is not existent all at one tyme but successiuelie to the worldes end it being the collectiō of all Catholiques which euer were are ād will be Orbis miratus est se fact◠esse Arianum Dial. con Lucif 58. A fift is made out of an exaggeration of Sainct Ieromes To the ground and occasion of the speach which was the act of the Bishops in the Councell I might āswer as S. Au. doth to the like ob made out of some words of S. Hilarius Quis nescit ilio tempore obscuris verbis multos parui sensus fuisse delusos vt putarent hoc credi ab Arianis
quod etiam ipsi credebant alios autem timore cessissè simulatè consensisse Aug. Ep. 48. See Baronius as the yeare 359. about the Councell of Ariminium which approued the Nicene faith and cōdemned Vrsatius Valens c. Afterwardes happened that which S. Ierom speaketh of when the Councell was neither f◠nor approued and all Catholikes in the world admit that such a Councell might 〈◊〉 of Ariminium neuer approued by the See Apostolike nor euer acknowledged for lawfull by the Church and by your selues also reiected I answeare that there was noe cause of feare that the Church should by that acte be all deceaued and erre in faith for the Church hath alwayes the assistance of the holie Ghost to preserue her from errour in faith by couenant of God the Father and promise of God the sonne as in the next booke you shall heare at large Neither wanted there at any tyme learned men who knew that a Councell wanting the consent of the See Apostolique was not Oecumenical properlie nor an infallible rule of faith 58. If you plead against the visibilitie of our Church with this obiectiō it is weake for the Arians euer found opponēts and those visible such as at last wonne the field If you plead with it against the vniuersalitie of the Church it is also weake and impertinent it is impertinent as it comes from you because those Arians were not Protestantes and therfore their number makes nothing for the vniuersalitie of your cause And it is also weake because their communion was neuer with all Nations nor did euer equall the vniuersalitie of the Church Which is euident because the Catholique communion was elder by three hunderd yeares and was in that tyme spred ouer all Christendome and hath continued after Arianisme is gone these many hundred yeeres in the communion of the Christian world and more Natiōs haue bene since conuerted to it and are dailie and so will be till she hath bene in the communion of them all If therfore you will measure both take each communion in her greatest latitude of tyme and place or Nations and you will presentlie see Arianisme to be too narrowe and too short as not hauing possessed so many Nations nor dured so longe a tyme. Much lesse will you find that begining the same tyme it ranne side by side in an equall or a fuller streame through all ages to this daie and were so to continue if you intended this I should suspect your braine 59. Touching the comparison of it to that part of the Church at least which was at that tyme you thinke it so filled all places of the Christian world that Catholiques had noe roome This errour is of ignorance you may amend it if you inquire of some who did liue then If I should bring many testimonies you would saie I were tedious in matter of historie and therfore will content my selfe and you also if you be reasonable with one from many Authors S. Athanasius a man beyond exception together with diuers Bysshopes of Aegypt Thebais and Libia wrote to Iouiā the Emperour of the Nicene faith thus Know certainely ap Theodoret l. 4. c. 3. most holie Emperour that this same faith hath bene published from all memorie of ages this the holie fathers assembled at Nice haue confirmed to this haue assented all Churches euerie where as of Spaine of Britanie of France of all Italie of Dalmatia of Mysia of Macedonia and all Greece and all the Churches of Africke Sardinia Cyprus Creete Pāphilia Lycia Isauria and the Churches of Aegypt Lybia Pontus Cappadocia and the Churches of the bordering countryes and finallie the Churches of the east some fewe excepted which doe fauour the Arian sect for wee doe certainelie know the sentence of them all and haue receaued letters from them and doe know certainlie most holie Emperour that although a fewe doe contradict this faith the whole world cannot suffer preiudice therby 60. Sixtly you oppose vnto vs want of vnitie I answeare that all Catholiques doe submit their vnderstandings to the iugment of the Church and to the generall decrees of their Pastores and masters readie to beleeue whatsoeuer they generallie in Councells doe define and to reiect whatsoeuer they condemne and by these meanes are vnited perfectlie vnto those Councelles and to the whole Church in faith and iudgment about religion each man in the Church hauing his vnderstanding vndeuided in beleefe from the Church and so being one with it Vnitie consisting in Indiuision as you haue learned of the philosopher lōge agoe Our Councelles likewise are one in doctrine as the partes of Scriptures are though they be not Scripture but declarations of Gods word that is they are vndiuided there being amōgst thē all noe opposition or dissent in decrees and definitiōs ād the later receauing what hath bene formerlie defined wherof hereafter I will discourse a part because as Iulian Porphyrie and others thought they sawe cōtradictions in the Scripture so you haue imagined the like of Coūcelles though nothing so many nor haueing that shew as those had which by the foresaid infidelles were obiected and if you know not so much you are not of that reading your frindes haue taken you to be To your argumente I saie therfore that this companie hath vnitie in beleefe noe man at all in the companie being diuided from the rest in beleefe howsoeuer about thinges vndefinied and vndetermined by the Church in their tyme there might be diuersitie of opinions ād may be now in the like as he knowes that hath bene a weeke in the Schooles of deuinitie The same companie hath originallie likewise vnitie in religion and faith each vnderstanding in the whole mysticall bodie being submitted to the same iudge of cōtrouersies that is to Gods Spiritte in the Church Catholique and acknowledging this one Spiritte and this one Church and this one Spiritte in this one Church iudging defininge determining ruling all VVhich common vnion and consent in one makes their communion so generall so firme and so conspicuous as you are faine to see with your eies against your will 61. A seuenth argument is made against succession and it is obiected that wee haue noe succession of Catholiques or of such as wee are I answeare that the Catholique religion and Church is that whose communion is with all Nations as you haue heard and a Catholicke is a man who doth resolue his faith into this Church and into the Spiritte which doth assist and teach it such were all who did receaue the Generall Councelles before spoken of and the doctrine of the Church present to the tymes wherein they liued which were infinite and such will be to the worldes end If you will haue some assigned more particularly that you may dispute against them I name whole assemblies of pastors in Generall Councell I name the Generall Councells mentioned heretofore In them was our Succession and the Catholique Church in them was conspicuous and worlds of people did communicate with
prototyporum memariam recordasionem desiderium veniant illisque salutationem HONORARIAM ADORATIONEM exhibeant NON secundum fidem nostram VERAM LATRIAM qua solùm diuinae naturae competit Definitio Conc. Nic. 2. act 7. Legatur Epistola Concelij ad Impp. in fine eiusdem actionis To this Decree the Church in the Councell of Trent refers it self Sess 25. and saith only wee are to giue Images DEBITVM honerem venerationem leauing the further specification of this honour to be learned out of the Nicene Decree further A thing may be adored per se and per accidens and by this I leaue you to vnderstand the Schoolemen for I speake heere onely of the doctrine of the CHVRCH Poets and Rhetoricians haue their figures Must a Generall and approued Councell be condemned with such beggarlie vn-cohereÌ„t prooâ—e as this Magdeb. cent 8. c. 9. col 636. Quare contra Adriani Pontificis Legatorum eius sententiam decernunt c. The Church hath euer since the Apostles daies and then too beleeued that such a Councell cannot erre and therefore you must produce better euideÌ„ce better theÌ„ that which plaÌ„ted Christianitie if you will make her in her ould age change he Creede 19. But suppose the Franckfort Councell had condemned all kind of honour donne to Images which thing you doe further preteÌ„d but caÌ„not prooue This were nothing against the infallibilitie of Oecumenicall Councells aÌ„d Decrees For that Decree of those Bishops assembled there out of the Westerne parts had wanted the consent of other Churches in communion with the See of Rome It had wanted allso the consent of the See Apostolike without which no decree is or was euer by the Church esteemed Oecumenicall Adrian theÌ„ Pope refuted the Canoline Bookes aÌ„d maintained honoring of Images as appeares cleerly by his Booke to the Emperour yeâ— extant in the Tomeâ— of Councells 20. The Second Obiection in this kind is that two Oecumenicall decrees one made in the a Laterane Councell the other b at Constance are opposite in the matter of the Popes authoritie one will haue the Councell vnder the Pope the other ouer wheÌ„ce you inferre that the Church doth coÌ„tradict her self in beleeuing both Staie Sir not so fast the Church hath not both parts of any oppositioÌ„ in her Creede but let vs coÌ„sider the streingth of your argument If you should auouch that you sawe two lions fighting it is not sufficieÌ„t to the veritie of your relation that the things which you saw did fight or that they were Lions for if one were a Lion the other a Beare or if both were Lions but did agree and not fight your relatioÌ„ would be laughed at To make good your argument you must prooue here two things one is that these are decrees and each Oecmenicall the other that one of them in sense is contradictorie to the other Then further if you will accuse the Church you must prooue that she beleeues them both in those contradictorie senses Your labour would not be vnprofitable if you a Nâ—c illud nos moueâ—â— debet quod sanctio c. eum etiaÌ„ soluÌ„ RomanuÌ„ Pontificem pro tempore existentem tanquaÌ„ authoritaté supre omnia CoÌ„cilia habenteÌ„ conciliorum indâ—cendorum transferendoruÌ„ ac dissoluendoruÌ„ plenuÌ„ ius potestateÌ„ habere neduÌ„ ex sacrae Scripturae testimoniis dictis SaÌ„ctorum Patrum ac aliorum Romanorum Pontificum etiam Praedecessorum nostrorum sacrorumque canonum decretis sed propria etiam eorundem Conciliorum confessione manifestè constet quorum aliqua referre platuit c. Conc. Lateran sub Leone 10. sess 11 b Ispa Synodus in S. S. Congregata legitimè generale Concilium faciens Ecclesiam Catholicam militantem repraesentans potestatem a Christo immediatè habet tui quilibet cuiuscunque status vel dignitatis etiamsi Papalis existat obedire tenetur in his quae pertinent ad fidem extirpationem dicti Schismatis reformationem generalem Ecclesiae Dei in capite in membris Conc. Constant sess 4. could efficaciouslie prooue and make it euident that one of them is such a definition as you speake of and that which soeuer it be wee all will admitte and thanke you too But I must aduise you of the difficulties you are to finde herein being such as greater Schollers then I take you for haue not bene able to ouercome 21. First therfore you are to make it euident that in the Lateran Councell the Superioritie of the Pope is formallie defined and that the words wherin it is attributed vnto him or acknowledged as belonging vnto him haue the nature of a decree for a Councell defines not euerie thing which it saith Secondlie you are to make it euident reflect in whose time and where it was how things stood in France c that the Councell was Oecumenicall and that it was open and free to all Bishops in the communion of the Church Thirdlie you must make it euident that the decree of CoÌ„stance is not limitted in circumstances and that it doth not speake onelie of such a Pope as were doubtfull or in case of Heresie or Schisme but absolutelie of any whatsoeuer Fourthlie you must allso make it euident that the decree was Oecumenicall or the Generall Decree of the Church and not of one Obedience onelie other two not consenting These are some of the many and obscure difficulties which hetherto learned men haue not bene able to see thorough and therfore the truth in this Controuersie lies hidden so as neither part is cleerelie knowne for aÌ„ Oecumenicall decree or definition though you rashlie and most ignorantlie haue affirmed it of them both Which you did to make shewe of good forme in your argumeÌ„t euerie one knowing that a contradiction betwixt Oecumenicall decrees doth suppose that both parts contradicting are Oecumenicall 22. Another part of your argument is that ita is Contradiction and this part must be prooued allso and made euident before your argument recouer strength But it is so farre out your power that suppose all the rest were dissembled you could neuer be able to make it good that is to prooue and demonstrate that one is opposite or contradictorie to the other and therfore you doe most vndiscreetelie reiect the Authoritie of Generall Councells reuerenced euer by the Church and directed by Gods Spiritte out of feare or apprehension of a contradiction which in the Laterane and that of Constance you thinke you see The Scholler who reiects Aristotle or Iustinian or the Bible for euerie seeming contradiction will neuer be good Philosopher nor good Lawier nor good Deuine 23. It is manifest by the acts of the of the Councell of Constance that the decree whereon you insist was at first not made by the whole Church because of three Obediences which then were One onelie that is Iohns Obedience or partie made it the other Two not being vnited vnto them So that if you take it as proceeding from those
Nouatus and such other found in ould nastie monuments If vppon her now for pittie you will pull the Waldesian habitte spokeÌ„ of in the former chapter the beggars coate I meane represeÌ„ting with partie coloured patches the peeces of her coÌ„stitution and lace it with the ragges you find in Illyricus it will be very trimme But how soeuer you may finde some ragges in Antiquitie it is still euident that after a busie search made by all your deuines into libraries and recordes you are not able to prudence a continuall succession of that kinde of men wherof you are or of that whereof VValdo was from waldo vpwardes to the Apostles I doe not saie a Catholique or vniuersall succession of them but a succession onlie though neuer so small you haue not in euery age a Nation nor one Diocese which were verie litle nor so much such is your beggarie as one man Much more vnpossible is it for you to produce a succession Catholique or vniuersall in that sort that in euerie age and euerie yeere since the Apostles it hath ben common to many Nations which is the condition of the true Church of God 9. You answeare againe and learnedlie as you thinke that in Fundamentall pointes the Romans were Protestant and therfore are well alleaged Are the negatiue propositions in the Bible Gods words aÌ„d de fide or wâ—ll you haue them all blotted out to satisfie the demaund though they were otherwise in not-Fundamentall Or as others cut out the distinction in Affirmatiues they were yours in Negatiues they were not VVhich distinction is laid in the way to catch woodcockes but hindereth not the course of our argument For the Roman Catholique holding those pointes which he doth is noe Protestant nor of the religion currant now a dayes among you And the Protestant is no Roman Catholique his Religion is not that which is currant in Italie in Spaine and other places vnited to the See of Rome wherfore in assigning Roman Catholiques you do not assigne a Protestant succession wheras the thing demaunded is a Protestant succession If I had ben to dispute with the VValdenses in Bohemia I would haue exacted the like proofe for the Religion currant among them that is as I haue tould you many tymes a companie of men of the religion currant now in England wherof some haue succeded others and this must haue bene euer since the Apostles daies if the successioÌ„ be continuall since that tyme. Wee doe not Demaund of you whether wee haue à succession in our Church that wee demaund of you is a succession of your owne of Protestantes not of Papistes of men professing the religion which you doe Shewe this succession produce your euidence to prooue that such men haue bene in all ages and then wee will examine your fundamentalles giuing you time till then for to thinke how many and which they be for assure your selues the common people doe perceaue your vnsufficiencie in answering to the demaund which you cannot flie without crossing and contradicting your owne selues For I aske you is a Papist a Protestant in religion you answeare no. I demaund againe giue me the Protestant succession the Church Protestant of former ages You answeare the Papistes succession was the Protestant succession and the Papisticall Church was the Church Protestant By which answeare graunting and affirming the Papisticall succession and Church to be the Protestant succession and Church you doe graunt and affirme a Papist to be a Protestant which before you had denied and still doe They see also that a Pelagian a Luciferian an Arian or any other hereticke may defend himselfe as you doe for each of them held the true religioÌ„ in part each held some affirmatiues and was negatiue as you speake in other thinges and each pretended that he did not mistake in fundamentalles 10. And wheras you say that you erre not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talles I answeare first that you speake at raÌ„dome aÌ„d by coÌ„iecture mearlie for to this daie you know not which all the fundamentalles are and therfore cannot be certaine whether you beleeue euerie one of them or doe not I answeare secondlie that the point of iustification is the ground and the soule of your religion and you mistake in that and contradict the scripture directlie in it and therefore erre fundamentallie You teach also that the Catholique Church may erre in matters of diuine faith which is a grosse fundamentall errour You denie the reall presence and holie sacrifice in the Masse which is likewise a fundamentall errour And by these and such like you are diuided from the Catholique and so fundamentallie different and diuided Neither is it any matter whether these and the like erroures be expressed in propositions affirmatiue or negatiue an Athyest by reason of one negation is of No Religion as they may be either way for by negatiue errours a man may be an Hereticke Turke Iew or Athiest according to the verities which in his errours he doth contradict To conclude it is cleare that these are shiftes to delaie tyme and to deceaue fooles for the thing wee demaund is a Catalogue of Protestant men such as in England you are of men holding those affirmatiues together with those negatiues which you do hould of men consenting with you in your religion and beleefe entirelie The like argument I would make against the Waldenses Hussites or any other for a man may beleeue the Trinity or the Creede with others and yet differ in ReligioÌ„ as we and you do whether the thinges be called fundamentall or be not called so for wee care not how you call theÌ„ of men which without anie tricke distinction paring of or adding to theÌ„ may flatlie be said to be of the religion ow curraÌ„t there in England of such finallie as being looked into thoroughlie and beheld round about are absolutlie Protestantes or men of your religion Produce the Catalogue of these men let your euidence come to light 11. Your men in the begining wanting companie and disliking the religion of the Waldenses and Hussittes would faine haue shaked handes with the Grecians and made an offer but they were instantlie refused and shaken of Censura Orientalis Ecclesiae as the world doth well know by their Censure in print euerie where You haue tould mee since and vnskillfullie that the Ethiopians are of your religion being demauÌ„ded proofe because it is against histories and against their Liturgies which are extant you are able to bring none neither can I imagine to what purpose you should runne thither vnles it were to get an out side which might keepe colour with the inside of your Church I remember your doctrine is that her soule is euer stained with actuall and Originall sinne and that all her actions are fouled in the same puddle to which doctrine of your owne I may adde by experieÌ„ce that she hath a foule mouth if you will needes haue all this walk in a black out side too you may goe
of the tyme they liued in produce a Catalogue a Continuall Catalogue of such mē as agreed in doctrine with you such as held the religion now currant in England who were they whence were they where were they hould vp your head man open your eies and looke the question in the face THE THIRD CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen to the demaund by recourse vnto Antiquitie 15. HAd your religion bene such that you could haue giuen accōpt and euidence of her continuall existence in the world there would yet remaine a greater taske behinde which were to prooue the generall communion it had with Nations and that it was and is Catholique in that respect that it did and doth consent with Antiquitie with the Apostles doctrine and with the Scripture for this must be prooued and exactly too before wee receaue it See the Protest Apol. and the Prud. Ballance and leaue that which hath bene generallie professed in England well neare a thousand yeares together and was all that space the knowne religiō of the Christiā world The true religion is such as I haue said and therfore if you will haue vs praie with you first showe that your Church is thus ample thus Catholique thus grounded and ours not for vntill you prooue this which will neuer be you may not hope that wee will come out of our Church into yours To proceed therfore I demaund euidence that your religion that I saie which in England is now currāt hath bene generallie in the cōmunion of the Christian world and I demaund such euidence as may commaund a wise mā to beleeue it Your answeare to this in effect is that in the first six hundred years it was so though you will not be tied to giue accōpt of it afterwardes By which euasion I doe gather that you apprehend the former argumēt as a ghost haunting and affrighting you seeing that for feare of meeting it againe you haue stepped ouer a thousand yeares together to take sanctuarie among the Fathers in their Church I was about to saie you were ill aduised to aduēture yourselfe thether where Iouiniās Nouatiās Donatistes and other your progenitors were cōdemned and accursed but cōsidering your case better I see that feare would not let you aduise at all but cast you no matter whether so it were farre ynough out of my waie 16. Now therfore I follow thether but first obserue how you dare not auouch and in effecte do deny that the religion you maintaine was openlie professed receaued publicklie for nine hundred yeares before Luther which is but could encouragement for men to come to or to staie with you who pretending to giue accompt of a continuall succession and euer visible Catholique Church doe come so short of the thinge expected that you can show none in all the world for nine hūdred yeares together and this which you haue said being wrested out of you vppon the racke ād much against your will because infinitelie preiudiciall to your cause I take for an effect of the former argument which you haue not ben able to answeare yet nor euer will be The like issue it hath oft had before for your writers ād best learned men hauing the space of a hundred yeares together bene vrged and importuned with this question haue laboriouslie searched all recordes turned ouer and ouer all authors examined all writinges with that industrie men are to suppose which a cause required wheruppon eternitie doth depende and yet after infinite inquisition cannot finde such a Church in former tyme as yours is and herevpon haue confessed that the Christian world was of our Religion before Luther not of yours imagining hereby a generall Apostasie frō the faith to haue ouerrunne the whole world Cal. praef Instit Hence Caluin in his Institutions saith that in the ages past there was no face of a true Church and that the true Religiō was drowned ād ouerthrowne for many ages Whittaker saith no religion but the papisticall had place in the Church Whittak cont Dur. p. 274. and wee knowe saith he as plainlie that the Church hath perisshed as thou knowest a man to be dead The Popes tyranny saith Luther hath extinguisshed the faith many ages Luth. Capt Babil c. de Bapt. Perk. Expos Creed p. 400. Simon Voyon Ep ad lect Hutter de sacrif mis p. 377. Before the dayes of Luther saith Perkins for the space of many hūdred yeares an vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the world When Boniface was installed saith an other the whole world was ouerwhelmed in the dregges of Antichristiā filthines with superstitiōs and traditiōs of the Pope another I graunt willinglie that the papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especiallie these last thousād yeares another Hospin Hist Sacram l. 2. p. 157. in the tyme of Gregorie the great all kinde of superstitiō ād Idolatrie hath as a sea ouerflowed all the Christian world no man resisting Another the Papisticall ād Antichristian Raigne began about the yeere 316. after Christ raigning vniuersallie ād without any debateable cōtradiction 1260. yeares Napp on the Reuel p. 68. the Pope and his clergie during all that tyme possessing the outward visible Church of the Christiās another For certaine through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church Seb. Franc. Ep de abrog stat Eccl. together with the faith and sacramēts vanished a way presentlie after the Apostles departure and for these 1400. yeares the Church hath bene no where externall and visible another the true Church decaied immediatelie after ther Apostles tyme. Fulk answer to Counterf Cath. p. 35. I haue a horrour to recite what the bouldnes of your men doth auouch further towching the Christian Church in common and her Apostasie from the faith cōtrarie to the sēse of all Antiquity and to the iudgment of the Christian world yea contrarie to the promises of Iesus Christ and to the couenant of allmightie God as hereafter I will shewe Meane while compare these textes vnto your doctrine of the Church In the later dayes shall be prepared the mountaine Isay 2. the house of our lord in the toppe of mountaines and it shall be raised aboue the litle hilles and all Nations shall flowe vnto it Thou shalt not be called any more forsaken and thy land shall not be any more called desolate Id. c. 62. but thou shalt be called my will in her and thy land inhabited because our lord hath taken complacence in thee and thy land shall be inhabited Id. c. 59. My spirit that is in thee and my words which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seede saith our lord from hence foorth and for euer 17. The Church in the Scripture is so ample that All nations flowe vnto it so established and so deare vnto Christ that she is no more forsaken but her lād euer
the most part were spotted with doctrines of freewill merits inuocation of Saincts c. Cal. Inst l. 3. c. 5. §. 10. Caluin It was a custome a thousand and three hundred yeares agoe to pray for the deade veteres omnes c. 4. §. 38. but all of that tyme I confesse were caried away into errour Those things which occurre here and there about satisfaction in the writings of those of ould tymes moue me little I see indeede some of them I will speake plainlie allmost all whose books are extant haue either slipt in this point or spoken to rigourouslie and to harshlie Whitt Cōt 2. q. 5. c. 7. Whittaker wee confesse that some Papisticall errours are auncient and are held and defended by the Fathers this wee do freelie and openlie professe It is true which Caluine Ibid. and the Centurists haue written that the Auncient Church did erre in many things as touching Limbus freewill merite of works c. Ex Patrum erroribus vester ille Pontificiae Religionis cento consutus est id l. 6. con Dur. s 7. Mart. de Vot col 1559. Dud. ap Bez. ep 1. Collat. R. Chal. l. 2. c. 22. The Popish Religion is patched out of the Fathers errours Peeter Martyr As longe as wee stand to the Councells and Fathers wee shall remaine allwayes in the same errours Duditius If that be the truth which the Fathers haue professed with mutuall consent it is alltogether on the Papists side Stay here is enough for my purpose if any man will haue more let him goe to the Conference of my L. of Chalcedon and reade it there 24. Before I make my argument I will note here an effect of this guiltie cōscience of Protestancie which effect is to decline the way of tryall by the Fathers to labour to persuade mē their iudgment is vnsecure Iew. Ap. part 4. p. 117. and in fine to cōtemne them Hence Iewell in his Apologie hath said that the way of finding the truth by God speaking in the Church and Councells is very vncertaine dangerous and and in a manner franticke Rainold in his conference would haue you beleeue that if the Fathers not onelie one or two but All Rainold Conf. c. ◠diu 1. held a point now questioned and not held it onelie but wrote it nor onelie wrote it but allso taught it not darklie but plainlie not seldome but commonlie not for a short season but cōtinuallie This consent of theirs if any such be foūd were vnsecure Thus bouldly he prepares himselfe to encoūter thē all this reckoning he makes of their Antiquitie their Sāctitie their Spirit their consent But will you see how Luther in his Cupps tramples on them Lut. Coll. mēsal c. de Pat Eccl. In the writings of Hierome there is not a word of true faith and sound Religion Of Chrysostome I make no accompt Basil is of no worth he is whollie a Monke I way him not of a haire Patrum authoritas susque de que faciēda est de ser arbit c. 2. fol. 433. Cyprian is a weake Deuine c. And in generall The authoritie of the Fathers is not to be cared for Let vs now to the last argument which I make thus 25. If the Fathers of the first six hundred yeares haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted Arg. 3 yours so cleerly that your best Schollers and our greatest aduersaries in this quarrell of Religion haue though vnwillinglie yet by force of euidēce directlie cōfessed it then haue you not yet made it cleere that the Church in those tymes did beleeue as you doe and was of the Religion now currant amongst you But the Fathers of those tymes haue deliuered our doctrine and contradicted yours so cleerelie that your best Schollers being allso our greatest aduersaries haue directlie confest it as is declared particularlie and vnansweareablie in the Protestants Apologie in the points of the reall Presence Transubstantiation Sacrifice of the Masse Inuocation of Saincts Prot. Ap. tract 1. Sec. 3. prayer for the deade Sainct Peeters Primacie Confession Satisfaction Absolution from sinnes by the Priest Merit Iustification by good works Images Vowes Reliques Ceremonies vnwritten Traditions c. Therefore you haue not yet made it cleere that the auncient Church did beleeue as you doe ād was of the Religion now currant among you * Do not rūne away cowardly from this argument and busie your self heere in expoūding or obiectīg Fathers as your appealants impertinētly haue donne for this is but to daunce on a round as Mr. Brerely in his aduertisments tould Morton But consider attentiuely what is heere obiected and answere it directly thorough out point by point The thing vrged is the confession of your owne Deuines What do you say to this Confession I do not aske in this place how you do Glosse the Fathers or what is your opiniō No. But I demand what you say to the Confessiō of your fellowes ād how you do answere the argumēt heere drawne from the said Confession I sawe Mortōs Booke once and when I lookt next into the Prot. Apol. I found Mr. Brereleys discourse to be so full and so far to ouerreach Mortōs answere that it was argument and replie both in one and still will be So that indeed you are so farre frō hauing the better in that part of the question which your answeare doth suppose that your side is infinitely preiudiced and vnpossible that you should euer come to equall termes much more vnpossible is it that you should euer in the consistorie of Reason and Equitie gaine the cause Why then do you perswade vs to followe you before you make it cleere or credible to learned men that you goe right that you goe the same way which the primitiue Church did goe their Posterity which did immediatly follow them tell vs that they went our way not yours the same all Christian Churches euer since for nine hundred years do witnesse the same your owne doctors do confesse and why then must not wee follow there is no right way but one no faith true but one no Catholique Church but one And now I resume the reason often vrged heretofore which the further it goes the more strength it gettes and thus I argue That Religion which neuer had the communion of the Christian world is not Catholique or vniuersall but the Religion now currant in England neuer had the communion of the Christian world for since Luther it was neuer the Religiō of the Christian world nor in the tyme of the primitiue Church nor in the later nine hundred yeers therefore it is not Catholique THE FOVRTH CHAPTER That no satisfaction is giuen by pretense of Scripture 26. THe last shift wherevnto in fine you betake your selfe is to leaue Antiquitie ād to be tryed by the word or Scripture onely And here too you are so nice that you will admit a part onely of Scripture and scarce knowe what your owne selues But of this hereafter
of the Deuil opposed to the Cittie of God or Societie of the Good Others think it to be Rome as it was in S. Iohns time when the Emperours there abiding did persecute the Church of Christ and as it will be about the end of the world Be it this or that or some other nothing is heere auouched against vs. It is not heere said that the Pope is that Woman or that he is the Beast on which the Woman sate or that he is one of the Heades of the Beast or that he is Antichrist No one of all these is heere affirmed why then do you alleage it what is this to the argument wherein I said the Scripture doth no where formallie contradict vs or how doth it iustifie your bragge that you haue Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie on your side 43. And thus farre concerning the texts alleaged by Iohn White which he affirmed to be manifestlie and without ambiguitie for the Protestants where as not any one doth in termes contradict that which our Church doth teach which was the thinge he made his reader to expect But you will bid a man aske the Spirit for the sense of these places And to meet with you at this turning too so will I. You will direct him to the Spirit in your selfe in Iohn white I will direct him to the Spirit in the Church My direction and resolution is well grounded as I will declare here after Yours is not And if by this litle which hath bene said here in this Chapter a man would make a guesse at your Spirit he should quicklie find his nature First he contradicts the Spirit of the Fathers who held Purgatory merit c. SecoÌ„dlie he coÌ„tradicts the Spirit of the Catholike Church which he doth oppose in these things Thirdly he contradicts the Spirit of S. Iohn the Apostle and imputes vnto him a deliberate act of superstitious Idolatrie so you call adoring aÌ„gells together with grosse stupiditie that being tould once and that by an Angell too he would not forbeare but doe it againe But of this I shall speake againe in an other place that which for the present I conclude here is that the Scripture doth not condemne vs in plaine words You haue done all you can to shew it and cannot yet finde one place for this purpose You see allso by the way what I thinke of your consequences though that was not my scope in this discourse as I declared in the begining of the former Chapter THE SIXT CHAPTER That is vnpossible for Protestants to winne the cause by Scripture 44. HEretiques all generallie affect obscuritie they drawe their opponent as much as euer they can into the darke that he may not see there what they doe or their confusion be concealed from the people and so their credit saued I expected cleere places I looked for a coÌ„bate in the light you should haue shewne in plaine words in the Scripture there is no Purgatory Christ is not in the Sacrament reallie Priests and Bysshops may take wiues to worship Angells is Idolatrie These and the rest of your propositions you should haue showne there if you would haue woÌ„ne that way and haue done that which you pretended But you haue not done it you haue cited some places which haue it not in the words and in regard they are obscure to you or to the ignorant you suspect or guesse and preteÌ„d the sense which you would haue may lie secret in the words though you cannot shewe it there and wee knowe it is not there at all Wee haue light enough to see that the Scripture in those places doth not as much as obscurely speake against vs wee haue prayer aÌ„d industry wee haue the Fathers helpe wee haue innumerable eies regardiÌ„g the doctrine of the Church and the Scripture and coÌ„paring them together In a word the assisting Spirit with all his guifâ—s is in our Church 45. Now to shewe further how vnpossible a taske it is for you to declare and make it euident out of Scripture that yours is the true Religion and ours not I will turne the argument which I did vse in the begining of the former Chapter into an other forme aÌ„d make it thus If the scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours Arg. it is vnpossible for you to make it euident by the Scripture that your Religion is true and ours false But the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours and this I will shewe running thorough the points wherein our maine difference doth consist which are the Infallibility of the Church in deliuering Scripture aÌ„d Gods word generallie Traditions reall Presence OblatioÌ„ of Christs body aÌ„d blood in the formes of bread aÌ„d wine for the remissioÌ„ of Sinnes which is the vnbloodie Sacrifice The Primacie of S Peeter and his Pastorall office Absolution from sinnes by Priests Indulgences Iustice before God and intrinsecall in meÌ„ or inherent Iustification by works and Reward of them keeping the Commandements Freewill in works of grace Vowes and workes of Counsell not of command Single life prayer for the dead Intercession of Sainctes and Angells and finallie Worship of some things inanimate or sensles in regard of the reference they haue to things truely capable of honour more then ciuile In these generall heads the rest are included and these you name allwayes and stand most vppon them I am now by my promise to bringe their grounds out of Sripture wherein I will be as briefe as I can and will begin with the neerest which is the last aÌ„d so backwards till I meete the first againe Before I begine the taske two thinges are to be noted The first is that I am not in this Chapter to coÌ„tend about the sense and meaning if you pretend it is not that which the words offer immediately but that my taske is donne if I bringe places of scripture which affirme formally if the words be taken in their proper sense that which wee doe A further Iudgment or determination of the meaning and sense of the words I bringe is to be taken from the testimonie of the Spirit The Spirit I say is to be iudge of the sense and meaning not the spirit of externes or in them but the spirit in Gods Church And this Iudgment is euidently on our side as I will prooue in the third booke Here I am not to meddle with it but only to finde our doctrine in the same or equiualent words and to put it here downe This you must beare in minde likewise for the argumeÌ„t which in the third Chapter I made out of the Fathers It suffised there against you to cite our doctrine out of their mouthes Of their meaning the Spirit must be Iudge And not the Spirit in externes but the Spirit in the Church The second is that since to descend vnto particulars and to inquire each ones opinion in matter of Religion among ProtestaÌ„ts is endles and of infinite regard 3. Book
4 ch because euery man holds what he lists and doth assume to himselfe the iudgment of controuersie in Religion I meane here to name only your two Masters the late EuaÌ„gelists aÌ„d reformers forsooth of the Church Luther and Caluin and to cite them in this busines including you as farre as you consent with them for I intend in this Chapter to extend my former scope a litle and to shewe more generally the opposition of ProtestaÌ„tes to the Scripture Of Protestantes for I speake now of the whole body such as it is some be Lutherans some be Caluinists in some things the Lutherans oppose the Scripture more then Caluinists in other things the Caluinists more then the Lutherans in other both are opposite vnto Gods word When you are on that side which doth consent with vs theÌ„ my discourse doth not proceede against you yet then allso my argument holds in as much as it is confessedly true that in those points the Scripture is not against vs. If I say at any tyme you dissent from your masters whom I will name and admit that they and their Spirit of interpretation are contrarie to the Scripture you may interprete your selfe not to be included amongst them I speake vnto But my argument will runne on against you for all the rest of the points wherein you consent and agree with them which are allmost all in substance howsoeuer there may be some litle Difference about the manner If the Scripture affirme any thing absolutely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and you graunt it only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or with a limitation I goe on in such cases against you as opposite vnto the Scripture So in the points of single life keeping the commandements free-will as you expound your selues tradition diuine assistance and some other Likewise if you admit the words but vnderstand them improperly as in the matter of the reall presence priesthood absolution for in such cases your consent is but verball and vnder the words you conceale a different sense whereby the common * The state of the Question that it may not be vnderstooâ— WEE often ofsett purpose ouercloude with darknes things which are manifest wee impudently deny things false without shame wee auouch things plainely impious Wee propose as first principles of faith things orthodoxall wee condemne of Heresie Scriptures at our pleasure wee detort to our dreames Wee boast of Fathers When Wee will follow nothing lesse then their doctrine c. The Confesâ—ion of Zanchiuâ— a greate Protestant concerning the proceedingâ— of Protestant writers Doctors and pillars of that Church Ep. 10 〈◊〉 Sturm fine l. 7. 8. Miscell people are deceaued Of the Fathers authorities I meane the same If you admitte our doctrine plainely subscribe and along to the next if you do not then attend to the plaine sense of the Scripture which I produce Vide Coâ— lat doctrâ— Cath. Protest 〈◊〉 expressâ—â— Scripturâ— verâ—â—s 〈…〉 The obscuâ—â—st of those things which I am to propose is inuocation of Saincts yet you dare not abide â—he triall of that point by confessed testimonies of Antiquitie 46. Touching the honour giuen to some things in animate for the SaÌ„ctitie which they haue as reliques Crosse pictures c. you remember that it is relatiue proportionate vnto the Sanctitie not absolute as I tould you before This kinde of honour done to such things You do wholly condemne Debituâ—â— honorem venerâ—â—tionem c. Conâ— Trid. seâ—â— 25. in greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which word yoâ— haue inteâ—preted bâ— the â— Niâ— Coâ—â— in eâ— aâ—â—â—pp Calu. l. 1. Instit c. 11. 4. c. 9. Wee do giue it To contradict your generall deniall one example ouâ— of the Scriptere will serue because it is the same reason in the rest You esteeme the deade body of a Sainct more then common earth if therefore I shewe you that honour is in Scripture commanded to be giuen to the very ground in regard of relatiue sanctity you will admit that in this point it makes for vs against you In the third of Exodus our lord seeing that Moyses went forward to see he called him out of the bush Exod. 3. v. 4·5 Honour to the ground and said approach not hither loose thy shoes froÌ„ thy feete for the place whereon thou standest is holie ground Heere is command and example of honour donne to the ground in regard of relatiue sanctitie which it had And if the ground might haue a kinde of honour why not the dust and bones of Martyrs why not the Crosse whereon Christ suffered why not the place where he stood why not his picture wherein he is represented when Iosue was in the field of the cittie of Ierico he lifted vp his eies Ios 5. v. 13.14.15.16 and sawe a man standing against him holding a drawne sword and he went vnto him aÌ„d said art thou ours or our aduersaries who answeared No. But I am a prince of the hoast of our lord and now I come Iosue fell flat on the ground and adoring he said what speaketh my lord to his seruant loose VVee haue neede of a Mediator to Christ our Mediator S. Bern. serm sig magn saith he thy shoe from thy feete for the place wherein thou doest stand is holie And Iosue did as it was commanded him 47. Next concerning Saincts and Angells Though wee do not acknowledge them our Principall Mediators for the chiefe Mediator is Iesus Christ appar vide Cyrill l. 12. Thesaur c. 10. God and man Yet wee beleeue that their subordinate mediation to speak with S. Bernard and Intercession and prayers in particular for vs relying on the merites of our Sauiour are profitable to vs agreable to their happie estate and presidencie and conformable to the Scripture You say No. Calu. 1. instit c. 14. 3. c. 20. Christus solus populi vota ad Deum defert ibid. § 20. The Scripture The Angell of our lord said Zach. 1.12 See allso Dan. 10. Intercession O lord of hoasts how long wilt thou not haue mercie on Hierusalem and on the citties of Iuda with which thou hast bene angrie And in the Reuelation of S. Iohn The fower and twentie Seniours or Elders fell before the lambe Apoc. 5. v. 8 hauing euery one harpes and golden vialles full of odours which are the prayers of saincts This place doth prooue subordinate Intercession not to be iniurious to the mediation of Iesus Christ but to be included in the order which he hath serte Apoc. 4. v. 2. Consider further the circumstances of the vision to find out what persoÌ„s these Elders were Behold quoth S. Iohn there was a throne set in heauen v. 4. and vppon the the throne one sitting c. And rouÌ„d about the throne 24 thrones and vppon the thrones 24 Elders sitting cloathed about in white garments and on their heades crownes of gold If now you will haue me to beleeue that these Elders cloathed in white
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
fond persuasion any indifferent man who doth vnderstand Latine may do thus In anie maine controuersie of faith which you question and accuse this great companie I now speake of of innouation do you name the tyme when their doctrine first began and let him who would see the triall take Gualterius Coccius or some other of our Authors who write of that matter and he shall find another in the primitiue Church who did teach it before the tyme or partie you assigned whereby it will be euident vnto him that you were deceaued about the begining of it And if he follow the direction of the booke he shall finde the same in the Fathers I said in any maine controuersie of faith and not in any thinge whatsoeuer because the Church hath power to make lawes and prescribe ceremonies and therefore may introduce or alter such thinges according as the circumstances in her iudgment require For this reason I speake of points of faith or such things whose institution wee hold to be Diuine For example the substance of Baptisme is of diuine institution but Ceremonies haue beene added and the substance of the Masse is by diuine institution but prayers and Ceremonies haue beene and may yet be added by the Church 17. If you be discontented with this manner of proceeding from which without a preiudice you cānot disclaime at all I vrge an other and take learned men to scanne the businesse In the seauenth age when the Christian word was Papisticall and of our Religion as you confesse the Schollers and wisest men had the Fathers writinges and the Memories of the sixt age which you must needes graunt because the precedent age did leaue them to their posteritie the Fathers to their Children the Masters to their Schollers Now those of the seauenth age as I haue noted more fullie in the former booke Bysshops Pastors learned mē and generallie all the Church of that tyme hauing these pregnant and infallible meanes of informatiō by writings and otherwise did iudge and beleeue and therevppon did engage their part in heauen and eternall estate that they receaued their faith and Religion from the former age being the sixt Wherefore since a world of men in matter of Facte as whether their Fathers wēt to Masse praied to Saincts c. could not be deceaued the thing being subiect to the eie and there being infinite eies obseruing religiously what was donne it followes cleerlie since the world generally did then beleeue this to be the Religion professed by their Fathers that so it was 18. My fourth argument shall be this Papistrie as you terme it was the generall Religiō of the Christiā world in the tyme of Boniface the third as you may see in the Ecclesirsticall histories of that tyme whereby appeares that all generally did goe to Masse pray to Saincts confesse their sinnes c. and your men allso Arg. 4 do confesse it Againe the true Religion was once in Rome their communion once was withall the world and this Religion did remaine in the communion of Nations till the tyme of S. Leo and S. Gregory the Great as you may obserue in their bookes wherein their communion with the Christian world is manifest so compare the sixt age to the fift the fift age to the fourth c. as I before did the 7. to the 6. Now Sainct Gregory died in the yeare six hundred and fower and Bonifacius the third who in the tyme of S. Gregory had bene imployed at Constantinople came to be Pope and died also within the space of three yeares after in which space the Religion of the Christian world was not generally changed as wee see manifestly by all histories of that tyme therefore the Religion which was vniuersally in the world in Bonifacius his tyme was the same religion with that which was vniuersally in the world in tyme of S. Gregorye which Religion you confesse to be the right Moreouer that in the foresaid space of three yeares it was not changed besides the Testimony which is taken out of the histories of that tyme where no mention is made of such a change by friend or foe but all things currant as before in matters of faith I cōfirme first by the practise of Sainct Augustine and his companie who being sent by Pope Gregorie brought Papistrie from him into England as is largly obserued in the Protestants Apologie and by your learned men there confessed Prot. Apol tr 1. Sect. ◠I prooue it secondly by the writings of such as liued in the sixt Age wherein are expresly contained all pointes of Papistrie which you may finde in Coccius and Gualterius if you take the paines and I will put downe if it be required Thirdly it is not only incredible to any man of iudgment but also manifestly vnpossible by reason of the diuine ordinance and promise of Iesus Christ that all Christiā people in the space of three yeares without meeting in common Councell without resistance of any zealous men without force of armes or other constraint should generally change the religion of the whole world and conspire all generally for you cannot produce any one man who stood for your Religion in that tyme which you would haue vs beleeue was the Religion of the first six hundred yeares there is not in histories mention of any one Protestant man then resisting therefore I say againe it is vnpossible that they should conspire all all kingdomes all states all Prouinces all Natiōs all vniuersities all Bysshops and generally all men liuing learned and vnlearned good and bad Pastors and people against the Euidence of the former Religion against the Religion of the Christian world which you foolishly suppose to haue bene the Protestant howsoeuer against the Religion of the world before them maintayned to that tyme by Fathers Writings and Authority by the force and power of cleere Successiō in the Chaires of Christs Apostles by the word of God interpreted by the Spirit in knowne Saincts by consent of Nations and generally of the Christian world and finally by the seale of infinite miracles recorded euery where and fresh in memory which Religion they had seene exercised in all the Christian world with their owne eies and had practised their owne selues Yet this you make a companie of sillie people to beleeue on your word Isa 59.21 Io 14.16 Ephes 4.14 against a world of eie witnesses against all rhe men of that age yea against Gods couenant with his Church and against the expresse promise of Iesus Christ THIRD CHAPTER Further confirmation that the Companie of Christians in communion with the Bysshop of Rome is the Church 19. THe former Argument because I know you will striue what you can to cauil at it I will second with another taken out of the confession of your Deuines and though I loathe to rehearce their fowle speaches and errours against the Church and her doctrine yet some of thē here I will set in your way desiring the
Catholique reader to turne his eie aside a while till they be past I will begin before Luther when our Church generally was acknowledged for true by the ChristiaÌ„ world aÌ„d her doctrine beleeued aÌ„d will goe vpward to see Whether the Confession of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our Church and doctrine by the Christian world will reach to S. Gregories time or no From thence to proceede afterwards to the Apostles with the vniuersality of the same Church and doctrine will be easie First therefore by your learned men it is confessed that Papistrie to vse Arg. 5 your word was the generall Religion of the Christian world before Luther came In so much that a Tota Occidentalis Ecclesia defendit quicquid impietatuÌ„ detestamur Caluin Resp ad Versip p. 354. Caluin affirmes all the Westerne Churches to haue defended it and b. Discessionem à toto mundo facere coacti sumus Id. Ep. 141. that his separatioÌ„ was froÌ„ all the world c. white Defence c. 37. p. 136. The Papacie or articles wherein wee refuse the Church of Rome are a leprosie c. White saith it was a leprosie breeding in the Church so vniuersally that there was no visible company of people appearing in the world free from it d. Benedict Morgestein tract de Eccl. p. 145 and he saith there further that it is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receaue it from them Morgestern The whole Christian world knowes that before Luther all Churches were ouer whelmed with more then Cymerian darknes e. Bancroft Censure c. 4. BaÌ„croft The Priests and all the people too were drowned in the filth of Poperie from top to toe f. Iewell serm on the 11. c. Luk. Iewell The whole world people Priests and Princes were ouer whelmed with ignorance All Schooles Priests Bysshops and Princes of the world were by oath obliged to the Pope g. Daniel Camierus ep 49. Camierê° Errour possessed not one litle part or other but Apostasie auerted the whole Body from Christ h. Brocard in c. 2. Apoc. fol. 41. cognitio Christi defuit in omnibus singulis suis membris VVhit Cont. 4. q 5. c. 3. p. 684. Brocard When the preaching of the Gospell and the first assault made vppon the Papacie was approued in Luther the knowledge of Christ was wanting in all and euery one of his members i Whittaker In tymes past no Religion but the Papisticall had place in the Churches And. k. Id. Cont. 2. q. 3. p. 467. per omnes visibiles Ecclesias grassata est That Antichristian plague hath gone thorough all partes of the world and all visible Churches Thus in generall To runne thorough the particulars were infinite They say l. Luther serm de simulacr fol 277. Altero abusu imaginum totus orbis oppletus est The whole world was filled with the abuse of images That m Calu 2. Instit c 2. §. 4. Ad vulgus etiam ipsum omnes hoc principio imbuti sunt praeditum esse hominem libero arbitrio All to the very common people were imbued with this principle that maÌ„ hath free will that n Confess Aug. c. 20. Fateri omnes necesse est de fidei iustitia fuisse altissimum silentiuÌ„ Magburg praefat Cenur 13. extincta est doctrina de fide tantùm sine operibus Calu. Resp ad Sadolet p. 125. Dogma istud de iustificatione per solam fidem quod in religione summum erat dicimus fuisse à vobis ex hominum memoria deletum the principall point of Religion iustification by faith only was blotted out of memory that o. Bucerus li dâ— concord p. 660. Hic error de reali praesentia loquitur apud totius orbis Christianos inualuit the errour so they speake of the reall presence preuailed amonge all the Christians of the world that p. Gualt in praefat Com. in ep ad Rom All the world erred in that article of the reall presence that q. Calu. 4. Instit c. 18. §. 18. Missae abominatio in calice aureo propinata omnes Reges terrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt proram puppim suae salutis in hac vna statuerint the Masse made drunke all the kinges and people of the earth from the first to the last that r. Luth. Captiuit Babil fol. 68. scarce any thing was more beleeued then that the Masse was a Sacrifice that Å¿ Calu. Respons ad Sadolet p. 130 all endeuoured to merit to satisfie c. And to summe all vp in a word they confesse our Religion to haue preuailed ouer their supposed Church and Religion so farre t. Luth. Capt. Babil fol. 77. Id. in Psalm grad fol. 568 in 2. Gal. fol. 306. that the Protestant faith was abolished and extinguished That u. Magburg praefat Centur. 5. w Calu. 4. Instit c. 2. §. 2. Sub Papismo doctrina citra quam Christianismus non constat tota sepulâ—a explosa vnder the Papacie there was an extreme abolishing of the true Protestant Religion and the diuine word that vnder the Papacie the DOCTRINE without which ProtestaÌ„t Christianitie doth not subsist was ALL reiected aÌ„d buried This was the state of our Church before Luther and not for a small tyme but for nine hundred yeare yeauen from the tyme of Boniface and Gregorie the Great All the knowne Churches in the world all that tyme frequenting and beleeuing Masse confessing to Priests praying to Saincts and for the deade beleeuing iustification by workes doÌ„ne in grace aÌ„d the merit of theÌ„ satisfaction traditions religious vowes c. and the communion of the Pope was with the Christian world generally all that tyme. This you might knowe particularly froÌ„ tyme to tyme out of Ecclesiasticall Histories if you would reade theÌ„ but of histories I am not to speake now let vs goe on with the confessioÌ„ of your men for the generall acknowledgment of our ReligioÌ„ and the generall pouerty or not existencie of your supposed Church Speake Perkins During the space of nine hundred yeeres the Popish heresie hath spred it selfe ouer the whole earth Bale From Phocas who liued a. 602. till the renuing of the Gospell the doctrine of Christ was for that space amonge Idiotes and in lurking holes and after Gregorie the purity of Protestant doctrine perisshed d. Powell Confid Pap. reas p. 105. Powell I graunt that from the yeere of Christ 605. the professant company of Poperie hath bene very visible and conspicuous e. Fulke Ans Countâ— Cath. p 36. Fulke The Religion of the Papists came in and preuailed in the yeare of our lord 607. aÌ„d so vniuersally that the reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was a. 607. f. Hutter de sacrif Missat p 377. Libenter concedo Idolomaniam pontificiam cuius
verum est Sacrificium Missaticum torum penè terrarum orbem inuasisse praesertim superiore proximo millenaâ—io Hutter I graunt willingly that the Papist Idolatrie hath inuaded all most all the world especially these last thousand yeares g. Simon Voyon Catal. Doct. in ep to the reader Simon Voyon when Boniface was stalled in the Papall throne the whole world was ouer whelmed in the dregges of Antichristian filthines with superstitions and Traditions of the Pope Then was that vniuersall Apostasie from the faith foretould by Paul h. Bibliander orat ad Princip Germ. c. 72. apud Caluinoturc l. 1. c. 4. A morte Gregorij magni ponimus esse per se notum clarissimum extta omnem dubitationem quod Papa Romanus sit Antichristus qui suis abominationibus blaspheâ—iis Idololatriis omnes regesterrae populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit vt brutis ipsis essent stupidiores Bibliander It is of it selfe knowne most cleere and out of all question that from the death of Gregorie the greate the Pope of Rome is Antichrist who with his abominations blasphemies and idolatries so made drunke all kings and people from the highest to the lowest that they were more stupid then very beasts i. Hospinian Hist Sacram. l. 2 p. 157. Gregorij magni aetate omne superstitionis idololatriae genus c. Hospinian In the age of Gregory the greate all kinde of superstition and Idolatrie hath as a Sea ouerflowed allmost all the Christian world not only none resisting but rather all helping and adding thereunto what force they could Thus I haue by Protestants assigned to me the space wherein Papistrie hath ben generall and the supposed Protestancie supprest I meane from Luther vpwards to Boniface and to the death of Gregory the great 20. Now that the Religion generall in the world then was the same with that which was generall in the world in the tyme of Gregorie the greate who died but three yearet before Boniface is manifest by the testimonie of a world of eie witnesses that is by the testimonie of all kingdomes Nations Schollers Pastors People by the testimonie I say of all ChristiaÌ„ Churches which being in the time of Boniface and of our Religion as you heard your Deuines confesse had most of them seene the exercise of the Religion in all the world in S. Gregories tyme and could not be deceaued in the fact subiect to the eie euery where as going to Masse praying to a. Perkins expos Creede pag. 266. b. Bale Centur. 1.74 Id. p. 65. saints coÌ„fessioÌ„ to Priests adoratioÌ„ of the Blessed sacrament c. They had allso all meanes that meÌ„ could haue to be informed certainly of the Religion of the world in S. Gregories tyme Books Records Relations eies to see the practise immediatly eares to heare what they said Instruction Baptisme Bible Orders all they had from them immediatly and the matter touched theÌ„ all and each in particular more then lands life or whatsoeuer else can be deare to man I might confirme this further out of Gods assistaÌ„ce to the Church out of which it commeth ineuitablie that neither the former Religion could abruptly stop as you imagine and the faith faile the Church fall on the suddaine the Church I say diffused thorough the world nor all knowne ChristiaÌ„ Churches in succeeding tyme or the whole Christian world generally erre in a matter of the greatest moment in the discerning the true Religion and the true Church of former tymes Leauing you therefore to deale with babes whom you may peraduenture make beleeue on your bare word without euideÌ„ce against histories against the promise of almighty God aÌ„d against the testimony of all the Church of that tyme that whilst all were a sleepe it seemes by your dreame the Religion of the world was generally changed in Boniface his tyme after the death of Gregorie I take vpon the testimonie of a world of people vpon the Testimonie of all Nations then Christian that it was not but that the Religion then currant was the Religion currant in the tyme of Gregorie the greate 22. Now that S. Gregorie had communion with all the world euery one knowes by his Epistiles to the Bisshops of Corinth Siracusa Extant inter Op. D Greg. Constantinople Alexandria Carthage Numidia Ierusalem Arabia Antioche Arles Vienna c. You graunt also that he did communicate with the former ages and was of the same Religion with them which is allso cleere by the consent and iudgment of the Christian world in his tyme who beleeued that he and they were of the same Religion with the Church of the precedent age and had best meanes to know it The same Church and Religion in the tyme of Leo the greate was also vniuersall and this likewise out of his writings may be prooued The vniuersalitie I say of Leo his communion is knowne cleerly by his Epistles to the Bisshops of Italie Ie op v. Ie France Thessalonica Vienna Sicilie Campania Tuscia Alexandria Antioch Constantinople Ierusalem c. in a word it is included and to the world made knowne by the Councell of Chalcedon If you will ascend hiegher with this vniuersalitie goe vp to Syluesters tyme and his communion with all the Christian world you haue in the first Nicene Councell and Further I thinke you will not presse me though I could further name S. Paul witnessing of the Roman faith that it was renowned in the whole world 22. Hauing bene loÌ„ge in the former argumeÌ„t and the longer because I would see whether you could make the like in all respects for the vniuersalitie of your Church and doctrine Arg. 6 there curraÌ„t amoÌ„ge you I will now be shorter in the next which I will frame out of the CoÌ„fession of Protestants too not so much for their authoritie which I esteeme not as to stop your mouth and it shall be this Bright-maÌ„ in his Apocalyps saith that the Church Protestant was hidden from the tyme of Constantine to wit 1260. yeeres that then the supposed Protestancie went into the desert Bright in cap. 11. â—2 Apoc. Id. p. 577. Broc on Reuel fol. 110 12â— Nap. Reuel p. 68. See also p. 191. and that euer since Antichrist so he calls the Pope hath raigned Brocard saith also the church supposed ProtestaÌ„t was trodden downe and oppressed by the Papacie euen froÌ„ Syluesters tyme to those tymes viz. 1260. yeeres aÌ„d Napper saith Betwene the yeare of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian and Papisticall raigne began raigning vniuersally and without any debateable coÌ„tradiction 1260 yeeres the Pope and his clergie possessing the outward visible Church of Christians all that tyme. And for the supposed Protestant Church and doctrine he saith Gods true Church most certainely abode so longe latent Ours therefore by the confession of these Protestants was vniuersall longe before the tyme of Gregorie the greate I knowe that you obiect the Primacie to
went Maronites and your deere freindes the Iconoclastes with diuers others You see how this communion continues euer Catholicke and that the Romane See is found euer in the Church and the Church in communion with the See of Rome To follow the streame further it is needlesse because you confesse that long before this the communion of the Christian world was with the Pope of Rome and that Nations were conuerted thereunto He that will may reflect on the generall Assemblies held at Rome at Lions at Florence As Also vppō the flowing of Nations vnto this Ocean in this and former ages together with the discarding of the Waldenses Albigenses and other Hereticks and he will see it to be most true that in noe age any communion hath bene acknowledged Catholique but onelie this which wee speake of and that the See of * The first Nicene Councell an 325. Fathers 318. Against Arius Communicated with Syluester Bisshop of Rome Cedrenus Photius Socrates Eusebius Baronius First Constantinopolitan Councell an 381. Fathers 150. Against Macedonius Communicat With Damasus B. Rome Vide ep Conc. ád Damas Theodoret. Socrat. Phot. Baron Ephesine Councell an 431. Fathers 200. Against Nestorius Communicat With Celestine B. Rome Epist Concil ad Celest. ep ad Imperat. Marcellin Liberat. Theophan Balsam Niceph. Baron The Councell of Chalcedon an 451. Fathers 600. Against Eutiches Communicat with Leo B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Leon ep 50. Baron Second Constantinop Councell an 553 Fathers 165. Against Anthim and Theodor. Communicat With Vigilius B. Rome Zonaras Eutichius Ep. ad Vigilium Greg. magn Niceph Baron Third Constant Councell an 289. Fathers 680. Against Monothelites Communicat with Agatho B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Zonar Theoph. Cedren Baron Second Nicene Councell an 787. Fathers 350. Against imagebreakers Communicat with Adrian B. Rome Vide act Conc. Cedren Zonar Baron Fourth Constantinop Councell an 869. Fathers 101. Genebr 300. Against Photius Communicat With Adrian 2. B. Rome Vide act◠Conc. Anastas Niceph. Platin. Baron Rome was euer in the Generall communion of the Catholique Church Your obstinacie and opposition hath beene occasion that I haue considered more particularlie of this matter and considering it I take much content to see the old Prophecies of the Greatnes and Perpetuitie of the Christian Church fulfilled before mine eies in the Church wherein I am 26. The tenth argument Were all Papistes silent in the matter of the Church the thing Arg. 10 is so notable that Heretickes themselues against their will would lead vnto it ād point it out For if you consider well there is but one truth ād many wayes there are to goe against it one true Church many false and hereticall And all those Hereticall are against the Catholike Church as errours are all against the Truth Now by Ecclesiasticall Recorde it is cleere that all confessed Heresies from the first to the last haue opposed themselues seuerallie The first Lateran Councell an 1122. Fathers 300. For instauration of Discipline c. Communicat with Calixtus 2. B. Rome Sugerius Abb. Platina Onuphrius Baronius Second Lateran Councell an 1139. Fathers 1000. For the Right of the Clergie Communicat with Innocent 2. B. Rome Oth◠Frising Sigon Platin. Onuph Baron Third Lateran Councell ann 1179. Fathers 300. For Reformation VValdens condemn Communicated With Alexander 3. B. Rome Guelielm Tyrius Plat. Onuph Baron Fourth Lateran Councell an 1215. Fathers 1285. Holy VVarre Transubstantiation defined Reformation of the Clergie Albigenses condemned It Communicated with Innocentius 3. B. Rome Vide acta Conc. Palmer Onuph Plat. Genebr Spondan in Auctar. ad Baron The Councell of Lions an 1274. Fathers 1000. Against the errours of the Greekes Communicat VVith Gregory 10. B. Rome Guiliel de Nangis Gregoras Matth. Palm Plat. Onuph Spond The Councell of Vienna an 1311. Fathers 300. Against seuerall Heresies Communic With Clemens 5. B. Rome Platina Palm Onuph Spondan The Councell of Florence an 1439. Fathers 141. The Re-vnion of the Greeke and Latine Churches Armen Ind. Cōmunic With Eugenius 4. B. Rome Palmer Chalcond Volateran Plat. Spond The Councell of Trent Communicat With Pius 4. to the companie with which the Bisshop of Rome did communicate in the tyme wherein those Heresies were and this companie likewise hath opposed it selfe to them all neither did they euer oppose them selues all to any other companie whatsoeuer This companie therefore which I speake of and no other is and euer hath been the true Church 27. The 11. Argument That companie which hath euer borne and maintained the generall prouidence of common Church-affaires Arg. 11 is the Catholique But the companie in communion with the See of Rome hath donne this and noe other which to omitte histories wherein the thing is manifest and by Card. Baronius deduced at large I proue by Generall Councelles by which is seene euidently First the Generall communion of the Church in the tyme wherein each was held Secondlie the communion of the See of Rome with each of these Councelles and consequentlie with all those partes from whence the Bisshops came Thirdlie the communion of each of these Councelles with the former Councelles and precedent ages Fourthlie which is the thing I haue spoken of in this argument this Churches diligence in conseruing Church-discipline and condemning erroures 28. Harke how the canones roare if your nicer eares will beare the word in Bithynia in Thrace in Ionia in Italie in France euerie where Against Arius and his faction at Nice against Macedonians and Monothelites at Constantinople against Nestorians at Ephesus against Eutichians at Chalcedon against Waldenses Albigenses at Rome against the Begardes at Viēna against moderne Greekes at Lions and Florence and against Lutherās Caluinistes and all Protestantes at Trent In Defence Of the Sacramentes Of the Primacie Of the reall Presence Of the Incarnation Of the Deitie of the holy Ghost Of the consubstantialitie of the Sonne of God and other pointes of the Catholicke faith and Church Againe Sabellius from men of this communion receaues his doome in Alexandria Paulus Samosetanus in Antioch Pelagius in Carthage Berengarius in Vercells Gilbertus Porretanus in Rhemes Nouatus and Donatus in Rome Finally all Heresies that haue ben hetherto haue had their sentence of condemnation from men of this communion and company from this Church of ours This Church and no other hath maintained the faith hetherto at all tymes on all occasions This hath maintained the word of God and kept it to this day and you know not which it is but by this This Chutch and no other hath maintained the Fathers doctrine ād the authority of generall Councells hetherto This Church hath triumphed ouer all confessed heresies she hath allready suppressed more then two hundred and hath bruised the heads allso of those which last peeped out of Hell to hisse against the Truth 29 By the foresaid waie of Oecumenicall Councelles is demonstrated euidentlie the Vniuersalitie of the Romaine Church and the Catholicke communion which in
all tymes it hath had because the Romaine See or Bisshop as I haue shewed hath communicated with all those Councelles and the communion of each of those Councelles was vniuersall in the tyme wherein it was held by reason of the Nations and kingdomes from whence those Bysshops came which is set downe at large in Baronius And by this wee see cleerlie the greate amplitude of Goâ—â— Church wherof the Prophettes did speake whom in the begining of this booke I haue cited Neither is there any other Christian communion that can equall it all this tyme or is any way answearable to the description there putte downe I would goe Further yet and put your eie to it as it hath bene in each tyme but it is not necessarie to take the paines a generall viewe was all I did inteÌ„d aÌ„d this I haue exhibited The Catholicke Church is seene and knowne by her Vniuersalitie in Tymes aÌ„d Nations this Vniuersalitie is seene in the Generall communion of Christian Churches this generall communion is seene in Generall Councelles and these Councelles you may looke on when you will Hereafter I will examine whether this indiuiduall Church whereof I haue spoken hath diuine assistance and how farre but here I abstract from that question and if you graunt this to be the Catholicke Church as of necessitie you must I haue all I intend in this booke And for this purpose onelie haue brought these fewe motiues omitting infinite others which euerie where you may finde 30. For that which I haue alleaged out of Councells I neede say no more it is their communion onelie which here I vrge and the Tomes of Councells I suppose you haue in your librarie Of the truth of their doctrine I will speake afterwards If you will goe Further yet and see all the Bysshopricks of the Church Notitia Episcopat Aub. Miraei either in elder tymes or now take Miraeus and reade them there and marke allso in him those which are erected since the discouerie of the newe world If you will See the particular demoÌ„stratioÌ„ of each poiÌ„t of our faith out of Antiquity and coÌ„sequentlie the consent of the world in our Religion and cause from the Apostles tyme to this day looke in Cocciê° who hath taken the paines to declare it in two large Tomes and there are vndoubted Authors of euerie age though here aÌ„d there may be some allso which are not vndoubted works which the learned ad such as do write coÌ„trouersie are to discerne it being sufficient for his purpose to haue digested in that sort what he had reade Collat. doctr Cath ac Prot. cuÌ„ expr script verb. If you will See the consent of our Church and her doctrine to Gods word and your opposition to it reade the conference of my Lo. of Chalcedon If you desire to knowe the signes and markes of the true Church and in which and how in particular they are verified reade Bosius you haue it there And finallie if your desire be to see the Acts and Monuments of our Church in particular from yeare to yeare you haue them in Baronius who hath made in this kinde an ocular demonstration of it and thereby of our Church In the former Booke you had other proofes of our Church and in the next you shall haue more for the points which I handle in these three Bookes are connected and vnited so that one maintaines the other And you will finde the Bookes so to conspire against you that when you thinke you haue answeared any one of them the other two will oppose them selues to your answeare and saue me in the iudgment of an intelligent reader the labour of writing any more When you are about your answeare if you will needes be answearing and are thinking with your selfe how I may oppose it out of the grounds laid downe in these three Bookes you will guesse whether I haue spoken within my compasse and if you spend your iudgment more suddainlie your conscience I beleeue will then retract it THE FOVRTH CHAPTER The Iewes reiected 29. I Care not if I leaue you now consideriÌ„g what I said in the last chapter whilst I looke Further into more remote tymes on the begininges of our Church Dispute I neede not because neither the times present nor the persons into whose hands this will come doe require it and the cause doth contayne such an argument of truth that simply to relate ours is to refute others and a relatioÌ„ serues my turne for the coÌ„nection of my discourse In all Nations and at all yeauen the most obscure tymes it hath beene a generall notion a faith transcendent a common and most constant Principle that there is a Deitie soe fathers taught their children so Philosophers did prooue in schooles soe the worlds variety and order and beautie and maiestie did proclaime abroade No man so simple but knowes he hath a cause and each being of the same nature all the species all mankinde hath a cause Each subordinate cause hath a cause and the collection of subordinate and depending causes doth argue the existencie of a higher power supereminent vnto the collection on which power they all depend which efficient being none of the dependant causes is whollie without a cause and therefore hath of it self an infinite necessitie in Being and in all that appertaynes thereunto Moreouer because infinite in existencie and Being all wisdome all power all perfection is in it and this immateriall intellectuall immoueable omnipotent all-commaundinge Creatour wee call God who as he doth vnspeakeablie exceede all so is he in like manner incomprehensible of all and liues eternallie in the height and fullnes of blisse comprehending aÌ„d enioying his owne substaÌ„ce which is the roote and fountaine of existencie the originall and vniuersall veritie infinite wayes infinite and a most pure and holy Goodnes vnbounded euery way 30. Heere the Atheist a man that intricates himself in Circles and infinities to denie that which he cannot auoid God will interrupt my discourse and except that all subordinate efficieÌ„t causes depeÌ„d not vppon any determinate thing because they may either ruÌ„ne the rounde or ascende euer without an end This fellowe lookes in tyme to begette his father aÌ„d exchang relatioÌ„s with him and to be AdaÌ„s great grandfather infinite tymes and as many times more Adams sonne But his ignorance is verie childish Each man hath a cause as I said aÌ„d therefore the whole nature or species hath a cause for if any had not he weare not of the same species or nature with the rest he weare not a pure man The whole collection or multitude therefore of men the verie nature and the species doth depend on some cause efficieÌ„t which likewise dependeth on an other or is independent and immoueable if independent and immoueable it hath Being by it self preciselie without any cause condition or contingencie what soeuer and therefore hath a pure vnlimited and so an infinite necessitie in Being and this is God If the
togeather from all places to discusse and to determine Is he moued with Antiquity the Reuerence of elder times is all with vs heere are Gregories and ChrysostoÌ„s and Augustines and Basils and Ephrems and Cyrills and Cyprians and Iustines and others innumerable Is he moued by Gods word it is flatly and vnansweareably on our side Atheists children can answere they erre so grosly against the light of nature The Iewes are forced to see with their owne eies the Prophecies of the Messias and his Kingdome fullfilled in Iesus Christ and his Church And this Church to be the Catholique yeauen that which is now and hath ben euer in the Communion of the Roman See is so cleere that denying of it all Histories all Bookes all Monuments all Memorie must be denied and nothing be confessed for true which euer yet hath beene on earth Denying of it you may allso denie that there was euer Iewish Nation or Roman Emperour or Heathen Idol you may as well deny that Rome Constantinople London are or euer were THE SIXT CHAPTER What meant by a Catholique 52. BEfore I goe on to your Obiections because the place is verie fitte and the thing necessarie to be obserued and borne in minde I will tell you what I meane by a Catholicke which question is here answeared without difficultie You haue seene the Catholique Church that is the congregation of Christians in communion at all tymes with the See of Rome by a Catholique man I meane one who beleeues the Creede of this Church one of this comunion aÌ„d euerie one which did heretofore embrace this communion was a Catholique so long as he did embrace it and died a Catholique if he died in it In the communion with this Church is included a Vnion with it which vnion is founded in a conformitie or vniformitie of faith and iudgment in diuine matters And this was in all those who did resolue their beleefe into the proposition or iudgment of this Church For he who submittes his iudgment whollie to the Church and beleeues as she telles him readie to beleeue more if she declare her selfe more fullie and to condemne all doctrine which she coÌ„demnes is vndiuided from the Church in iudgment and therefore vniforme 53. Hence it comes also that not onelie those who liued at one tyme were of our communion but such also as liued in diuers ages because the following age did receaue the doctrine and generall decrees of the precedeÌ„t beleeuing all which was then by the Church beleeued and condemning such opinions as they condemned By this meanes wee doe also communicate with them all as perfectlie in the disposition of our soule and redines of our vnderstanding as if wee had liued with them HeÌ„ce it is that wee admitte all the Councelles that were generallie receaued by the Church in their tyme and are sufficientlie moued therunto by the iudgmeÌ„t of the Church which then receaued them For wee resolue our iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and that is our rule vnder God who is the prime rule and highest Obiect of our faith You will be readie to make an other vse of some part of this discourse but you cannot for you make your owne choise of that which you beleeue and doe not submitte your iudgment to the iudgment of Gods Church Wee acknowledge diuine assistance in Church-proposition as I haue said before and this doth euery Catholique which is the reason why wee are all of one religion though wee liue at seuerall tymes Out of this comes the Catholique Vnion or vnitie which is most ample reaching into all Nations and through all tymes which kind of vnitie depending on the Churches mouth as on a subordinate cause and rule but principallie on the all-teaching Spiritte directing to reuealed veâ—ities as on an infinite and immoueable principle as hereafter I will shew is peculiar to the Church of God Aske any man of our religion on whose iudgment he relies in matters of faith and he will answeare that he relies on the iudgment of the Church and if you aske further on whom the whole Church of this age hath dependence for exterior proposition of matters of faith I answeare that this whole age resolues it selfe into the precedent age and that into the precedent and so vpwardes to the first which age did resolue it selfe into the Apostle proposition and they resolued their faith into the proposition of our Sauiour who came into the world to this purpose and he Cour Sauiour being the naturall sonne of God did cleerlie behould all truth with an infinite vnderstanding And there staies the resolution hauing made a full compasse and returned thether where this veritie first was For all truth is first in the diuine vnderstanding and thence reuealed manie wayes as it hath pleased that originall goodnes the eternall Father as by prophettes in ould tyme and after by his Sonne Iesus Christ who did instruct his Church and bequeathed an euerlasting assistance to beare in minde and to deliuer truelie this lesson to future ages Hence it came that this instruction or word which he put into her mouth hath not yet gotte out of it nor will to the worldes end 54 I had made a full point and was going on to the next Chapter but I remembred with whom I am now againe dealing and that I am to repeate the same things ouer more then once hauing for the same reason also contented my selfe with verie few things among infinite which might be said for our cause My chiefe intention therefore in this second booke was onelie to declare which companie of people in all the world is the Church Catholique or the Church answearing to Gods eternall decree declared by the Prophets And I haue prooued it to be that companie which is and hath bene euer in the coÌ„munion of the See of Rome This coÌ„panie of Beleeuers is the Church described in Gods word and no other companie distinct from this whatsoeuer it be is the Church there described In the proofe of this I haue taken such grouÌ„ds as are vndeniable as the knowne coÌ„munion of Nations the like being no where found the Testimonie of worlds of people the Confession of the most learned Aduersaries that wee haue or euer had since Luther came The Euidence of generall Councelles and the knowne Opposition of all confessed Heretiques in all tymes to this Church and to no other These grounds or arguments I take so farre only as they are manifestlie vndeniable and no further and to prooue that which your owne fellowes and your Masters doe yeeld vnto aÌ„d though most vnwillinglie haue confessed in their books That is I take them to declare that the Church in communion with the See of Rome is and hath bene euer the Church described by the Prophets and that no other answearable to that description is any where els to be found VVhen you answeare this Booke I will haue no other thing answeared in this place but this Keepe the question all
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
the Church and the onelie meanes which men haue vnder heauē to be informed of the truth is by recourse vnto it vnto the Church and to the Spiritte in her 6. I will descend vnto particulars and make it more manifest A man beleeuing or knowing that there is a God would gladlie heare what he hath imparted to men of the truth and therfore inquires for Gods word he would esteeme himselfe happie if he could be certainlie directed to it and not cozened with other things in steed of it with forged Gospells and Epistles To this mā the Church doth giue satisfaction by reaching him the Bible and assuring him that she knowes it to be Gods word by the assistance and testimonie of the diuine Spiritte which protectes her from errour in beleefe and this promise she had from Iesus Christ who by miracles by prophecies and other sufficient meanes prooued himselfe to be the Sonne of God You on the otherside who denie this certaintie and assistance can giue him no satisfactiō in the world Next opening this booke he finds it hard as containing many obscure passages about the Trinitie the Incarnation the death of Christ his resurrection the sacrament of his bodie and blood c. to this the Church answears him directlie and tells him the sense of God assuring him as before that she by the assistance of the diuine Spiritte left vnto her doth know is to be so You leaue him without satisfaction to the dishonour of Iesus Christ whose wisedome you call in question withall whilst you denie that he prouided meanes for men to be informed of his doctrine and of the waie to serue God 7. You are more sensible peraduenture in examples neerer home though these which I haue put cōcearne euerie man very neerelie I therefore put you in particular in the busines and on the other side put my selfe The question betwixt you and me is whether the visible Church be iudge of controuersies and infallible or be not what meanes to end it your witte why rather then mine or why either since the matter is diuine The Spiritte why in you rather then in me especiallie since I am in the communion of the Church and you not as I haue allreadie prooued or rather whie the Spiritte in either rather then the Spiritte in the Church I am a part that is the whole I am to learne and by Gods grace haue the Spirite to be taught and directed in the Church are my Pastors and I must heare them by the commaund of my Sauiour why then shall I not beleeue that when the voice of them all is one it is the voice of my Sauiour Iesus Christ Other things allso you question as whether it be in the hart onelie to beleeue or in the mouth allso to teach and to professe whether the promise be executed inuisiblie onelie and in the hart of the predestinate and no where els or visiblie also by publique proposition and profession of the truth These and infinite other controuersies wee haue with you ād with your fellowes now adayes and what meanes are there to finde the truth if you say your witte or the Spiritte I replie as before and am certaine that in fine no thing can be brought but the Spiritte nor this pretended howsoeuer but existent by Gods promise in the Church * Seeing the controuersies in our time are growen in number so many and in nature so intricate that fewe haue time and leasure fewer strength of vnderstanding to examine thē what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to search out which amōgst all the Societies of men in the world is that blessed company of holy ones that househould of faith that spouse of Christ and Church of the liuing God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they may embrace her communion follow her directions and rest in her iudgment Thus Field in his Epist to the Byssh of Cant. before his Church But if you keepe your eie long vppon this man you shall see him daunce the round too with his fellowes 8. Thirdlie this assistance doth efficaciously follow out of Gods eternall ordinance and decree about the Church which ordinance and decree he hath reuealed in holie writte All powerfull and wise persones intending Arg. 3 resolutelie an End do ordaine likewise efficaciouse meanes to compasse and effect it Since therfore allmightie God hath intended resolutelie to raise a Church out of all Nations as I haue declared in the former booke ◠Book 1. Chapt. ād since the meanes to doe this is infallible propositiō of the truth it followeth that he hath ordained infallible propositiō there of which proposition being not by externes but by the Church it remaines that the Church-propositiō is infallible Your āsweare is that the propositiō made to the elect is infallible but not the proposition made to the rest I replie that the proposition which I speake of that is the exteriour proposition is one and the same in it selfe and made to all but the elect make good vse of it others do not To put this in example for vnderstanding of it you knowe that our Sauiour did preach openlie and his doctrine was instruction for the elect and was infallible but reprobates did heare it allso Good and bad heard the Apostles preach and their doctrine was the same all men cast their eies on the Scripture and the decrees of Generall Councells are proposed vnto all These all are meanes ordained by allmightie God for the instruction of his elect and therfore by his perpetuall watch are kept infallible though reprobates heare and see the same but make not of them such vse as they ought 9. But to speake of the elect particularly since you desire it I demaund of you whether God doth prouide exteriour proposition of diuine faith and pure and solide truth for them or no if you graunt he doth I haue that which I intend for noe man is so mad as to thinke he doth imploie infideles and not his Church in this busines ād if he doth imploy the Church in it he keepes her from erring in the proposition that so the true doctrine may be conuaied into the harts of his electe if you denie that he doth prouide and dispose things so that the true doctrine be exteriorlie proposed vnto his elect how then doe they beleeue you must studie hard to resolue the question Rom. 10.14 for the Apostle thought it could not be And why do you trouble your selues to preach and write bookes perhappes you haue some other end but why did almightie God sēd prophettes into the world ād afterwards his owne sōne why did our Sauiour sende Apostles to teach Nations if this were not necessarie for the instruction of Gods elect why did God ordaine pastors and teachers and promise that his words should neuer out of their mouthes Ephes 4. Isay 59. why were the Gospells and the Epistles written and
are by his prouidence kept free from errour You would faine answeare that to the ēd the Church-propositiō doe settle Christiās in faith and infalliblie guide them it neede not be kept infallible and free from errour But how then am I infalliblie right as Christians doe beleeue they are if the rule which I doe followe be not so if I be allwaies as that and that be some tymes wrong how am I euer right suppose that doe erre and that I followe it as Christians here by Saint Paule are warranted to foilowe the Church doe not I runne into the same errour if you insist in this errour carpentars and masons will hisse at your doctrine 18. This is yet further confirmed because as S. Paule here makes the Church to be the rule to direct our faith so doth our Sauiour himselfe in the Gospell warrant men to beleeue as the Church teacheth saying to his Apostle and to their Successors the Pastors of the Church he that heareth you heareth me ād he that despiseth you dispiseth me and againe Luk 10. ◠Matth. 1◠17. if he will not heare the Church let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican How could this be true if a man might contemne all the Church as you doe and if all the Church might erre if to heare the Church be to heare Christ sure Christ speaketh when the Church doth the words be his words in her mouth ād if they be his words they are not lies they be true 19. Touching the place of Sainct Paule bid your brother puritan obserue here with you that as you haue now learned if you be not incapable of learning the Church whereof Saint Paule speakes is visible and that assistance in teaching is giuen according to the diuinitie of Sainct Paule to the visible Church of God And the contrarie is a meere shift and contrarie to Scripture to experience and to the necessitie of Gods people They haue not each one immediate reuelations but are instructed by visible men such our Sauiour did send to teach Nations and such will be to the worlds end to this purpose as the Apostle hath here tould vs. Such are those whome the Holie Ghost endowes with his guiftes to the edifying of the Saints or holie ones of which guiftes the Apostle speakes in an other place Rom. 12. v. ◠5.6.7.8 As in one bodie wee haue many members but all the members haue not one action so wee being many are one bodie in Christ and each one anothers members And hauing guiftes according to the grace that is giuen vs different either prophecie according to the rule of faith or ministerie in ministring or he that teacheth in doctrine he that exhorteth in exhorting c. Here is the Spiritte of God in a visible bodie a bodie I saie manifestlie visible in manifold operations and functions here described In this bodie this visible bodie the Spiritte is and in the same are Gods elect it beīg the mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ ād this mysticall body beīg one ◠5 as you haue read in the Apostles words The like discourse he hath in his Epistle to the Corīthiās where the vnitie of this bodie wherī S. Paule allso and the rest of the Apostles were and the visibilitie of the same one bodie containing in it the predestinate vnles you will exclude Saint Paule and the Apostles from the nūber of them are commended there are diuisions of graces but one Spiritte 1. Corinth 12. v. 4.5.6 c And there are diuisions of ministrations but one lord And there are diuisions of operations but one God which worketh all in all And the manifestation of the Spiritte is giuen vnto euerie one to profit To one certes by the Spiritte is giuen the word of wisdome and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spiritte to another the working of miracles to another prophecie to another discerning of Spiritts to another kinds of tongues to another interpretation of languages And all these things worketh one and the same Spiritte diuiding to euery one according as he will this is the bodie which hath the Spiritte and these are the functions v. 12.13.14 and these are visible to them which haue eies for as the bodie is one and hath many members and all the members of the bodie wheras they be many yet are one bodie so allso Christ For in one Spiritte were wee all baptized into one whether Iewes or Gentiles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 20. or bondmen or free and in one Spiritte wee were all made to drinke for the bodie allso is not one member but many c. now there are many members indeed but one Bodie Thus farre Sainct Paule wherin he hath confuted the Puritans errour of two Churches and accuratelie declared the visibilitie of Gods Church and assistance of Gods Spirit And I would haue you marke particularlie how S. Paul and consequentlie the rest of the predestinate are baptized into the same one visible Bodie and are partes of it which the Greeke text doth yet expresse more distinctlie 20. A ninth waie the diuine assistance is prooued out of the Epistles of the same greate diuine ād Apostle vnto Timothie and thus you may conceaue it The Church or congregation Arg. 9 of Christian men cannot be the pillar and ground of truth without diuine assistāce for men left to themselues may be mistaken in diuine matters but the Church is the pillar and ground of truth therfore it hath diuine assistance The proposition is cleere and confessed ◠Tim. 3. v. 14.15 The assumption I finde in Sainct Paul These things I write vnto thee Timothie hoping that I shall come to thee quicklie But if I tary lōge that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to conuerse in the house of God which is the Church of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth 21. You trie many wayes to answeare this argument but none will serue the first is that the Church cannot erre in teaching as long as it followeth the word of God ād teacheth accordīg to it This is a peece of deepe diuinitie Cā an heretique cā a Turke cā an Athiest cā a diuell erre as lōg as he followes the word of God and teacheth according to it are these pillars of truth The secōd is that those words are meant of the Church of Ephesus take your spectacles and reade againe The Church of the liuing God what Church is that but the Catholique wherin Timothie and all good Christians are This Church is the ground of truth The third is that it is meant of the inuisible Church This is likewise agaīst the text for the Apostle in all that Chapter doth discourse of conuersation of Christian people verie visible ād tells Timothie that the things which he saies there are directions for him to knowe how he is to carie himselfe in the Church of God reade the text for it is cleere 22. The last argument I make
one of Gods Secretaries a man beyond all exception declares in these words Isa 59.21 My spiritte that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth ād out of the mouth of thy seede c. saith our Lord from this present and for euer Thus he And the title of it is This is my couenant with them He doth not say my precept the Church of the Redeemer saith our Lord. 28. The first answeare is that the place concernes not the Church of Christ but onelie the Prophets of the Iewish Church But this is against the text it self which doth speake very manifestly of the Church of the Messias as you may see by the words that immediatelie goe before They of the West shall feare the name of our Lord v. 19.20 and they of the Rising of the Sunne his glorie when he shall come as a violent streame which the Spirit of our Lord driueth and the Redeemer shall come to Sion and to them that returne from iniquitie in Iacob saith our Lord. As if he had said when the Messias come into the world a Redeemer to Sion and to those that returne from iniquitie an Israel for when all Nations haue entered into the Church the Iewes will acknowledge our Sauiour too as I haue declared in the former booke Rom. 11. ◠and the Apostle doth also confirme out of this place both East and west that is the world will beleeue And this is my couenant with them the Beleeuers the Church My Spirit that is thee and my words c. The text aboue cited is by S. Ierome translated out of the Hebrew which in his time had noe points into latine thus Time bunt qui ab occidente nomen Domini qui ab Ortu solis gloriam eius quum venerit quasi fluuius violentus quem Spiritus Domini cogit VENERIT Sion Redemptor eis qui redeunt ab iniquitate in Iacob dicit Dominus Hoc foedus meum cum eis dicit Dominus Spiritus meus qui est in te verba mea quae posui in ore tuo non recedent de ore c. 29. The second answeare is that the promise is conditionall and the sense this that God will keepe the true doctrine of Saluatiō in their mouthes if they followe the Scripture and forsake not the truth in their hartes This answeare doth change the sense of allmightie God for it addeth the condition of following the Scripture wheras the promise and couenant of allmightie God is absolute and without condition as were the rest of the promises of sending a Messias and calling the Gentiles and the promise our Sauiour made of sending the holie Ghost after his ascension It taketh also the true sense awaie for the couenant is of effecting the Churches perseuerance in teaching and professing the sacred truth and adhering to his word and this you take awaie And the rest which you leaue is not the sense of God nor of the words as they are in the bible nor any priuiledge at all but a thinge which to Athiests and diuells you doe graunt for you confesse they doe teach true as longe as they teach the word of God 30. I demaund of you here whether you thinke in your conscience that God can continue the visible profession of the faith or no You cannot denie that he can doe it if he will for his wisdome and power are infinite and nothing can be but so as he pleaseth to effect or to permitte and if you denie this you denie that which in your Creede you doe professe Now graunting that he can doe it why doe not you beleeue that he will and doth seeing that he hath obliged himselfe therevnto by promise and couenant as the Scripture doth testifie It is a verie hard case when a mā dares not stand to the plaine words of Scripture and to their immediate sense which they doe offer especiallie a sense which is honourable to God and beneficiall to the Church but will add conditions of his owne as if God could make no couenant vnles he were his lawier to giue him counsell But omitting your trickes as foolish and vngrounded and contrarie to Gods honour and veracitie and wisdome I will putte you in mind of one thing which our Sauiour said touching the prophecies of himselfe and his mysticall bodie the Church Luke 24. v 44.45.46.47 All things saith he must needs be fulfilled which are written in the lawe of Moyses and the prophets and psalmes of me Thē he opened their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the Scriptures and he said to them That so it is written and so it behoued Christ to suffer and to rise againe from the deade the third day and penance to be preached and remission of sinnes vnto all natiōs begining from Hierusalem Heare you haue heard this preaching of the Gospell to all Nations particularlie by Christ inserted among those things which he said must needs be fulfilled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the couenant which I haue cited is in the prophet and toucheth this preaching particularlie whie doe you then oppose your selfe to Iesus Christ and saie it neede not be fulfilled it must not needs be 31. The third answeare is that God according to the couenāt doth keepe the true doctrine and sauing faith in the harts of the predestinate though they doe not alwaies professe it This will not serue your turne wee speake of profession of preaching the word of God of professing the true faith this God hath promised to continue and this makes men seene and heard of others this makes a noise in the world that all Natiōs may heare and come vnto the Church where continuallie one generation followes an other with the Gospell the doctrine of Iesus Christ the words of God in their mouth Isay 59.21 Harke Puritan the Scripture thunders this in my couenant with them saith our Lord my Spiritte that is in thee ād my VVORDS that I haue putte in thy MOVTH shall not depart out of thy MOVTH and out of the MOVTH of thy seede ād out of the MOVTH of the seede of thy seede saith our Lord from this present and FOREVER Reflect vpō these words This is my couenant with them the Christian Church saith our Lord My Spiritte which is in thee in thy hart and my words he saith not this or that poīt but generallie my words which I God haue put into thy mouth shall not out whēce of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede c. till when For euer I was about to make an end heere of this part but I cānot for beare adding one sentēce more out of the same prophet in an other Chapter next but one where he declares the perpetuall visibilitie of the Church by reason of the continuall noise which her Pastors make and shewes in part the vse of the foresaid assistāce Vppon thie walles Hierusalem
one S. Cyrill heere doth speake of the other S. August tract 96. in Ioan. To helpe the ruder to the vnderstanding of this difference in the knowledge of the same things Suppose a man were borne and bred in a caue vnder groūd and there taught that aboue there be heauens sunne and starrs And afterwards brought out in a cleere night to behold the beautie of the firmament with the heauens immensitie In the day to see the Sunne illustrating all the world with his light This later knowledge of these things is cleere and perfect if you compare it with the former which he before at his being vnder ground where he saw no greater light then a poore candle had of them So is the Churches knowledge heere Heere belowe she is instrusted that in God there are three persons the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost and makes an vnperfect obscure conceipt of it but when she getts vp thither she shall behold God cleerely as he is in himself And so all the rest of the Mysteries which now she doth beleeue 37. The fourth waie is to saie that the place is to be limited to those truthes which are necessarie for the commō people But this holds not for what shall become of the learned who shall compound differences in religion condemne Heresies and repaire the faults of Schisme which teare the Church in peeces if the Spirits assistance doth it not In vaine doe you limit the words of God you are a man you are not God you cannot rule him ād pare of what you please from his promise his words import all not onelie whatsoeuer is necessarie for common people but all whatsoeuer he hath reuealed they are extended as farre as the necessities of the Church do require Againe it is one thing to determine how far this assistance is affoorded to this or that Christian in particular which liues in a Catholique countrie and in peace another thing it is to define how farre it is affoorded vnto the whole bodie of the Church 38. The last waie is to saie that this promise was to be performed onelie in the inuisible Church by teaching them priuatelie This is false For the Church whereūto this promise was made was the visible Church and God made it to no other The Apostles were visible And how could it be otherwise whē their noise went ouer all the world The companie of Christians in communion with them were visible Their Successors the Pastors of the Church were visible Their office of preaching of ministring the Sacramentes and gouerning Gods people did manifest their persons to the flocke The guifte of tongues of interpretation of working miracles and the like made the men and so the Church visible The predestinate needed visible instruction Rom. 10.14 for how should they beleeue vnles they heare saith the Apostle in this case and how should they heare without a preacher and a preacher you knowe is visible you see him you heare him you can point at him Now preachers deliuer not infalliblie such doctrine as the predestinate are to beleeue without assistance and therefore for the predestinate peoples sake it was all together necessarie to assist the Church in visible actes in preaching in deliuering true doctrine which is to assist the visible Church In fine the office of the Apostles and Pastors whose actes are in teaching and directing others and consequentlie visible actes could not be rightlie performed without Assistance which you confesse and our Sauiour intending the perfomance of those actes that so his Church beīg called by his word deliuered with the mouthes of mē might be gathered out of all Nations did leaue them that is the Apostles and their Successors to this end diuine Assistance and said the Paraclete whom the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all things Iohn 14. v 〈◊〉 16 〈◊〉 13. and suggest vnto you all he shall teach you all truth 39. The third place I am to inculcate for this Assistance containes the Testimonie of the vndeniable Christian Church acknowledging the receipt of it For if wee produce euidēce for the promise and this by couenāt and for the actuall sending and finallie for the receipt of this Assistance by such as confessedlie might doe it in the name of the whole Church the cause is wonne To proceed therfore to this part you will confesse that the Apostles were the true Church and that if they receaued this Assistance the Church receaued it and as they vnderstood the promise and beleeued it so wee are to vnderstād and to beleeue it Now it is most certaine that they receaued this Assistance and did not onelie beleeue that according to the promise of our Sauiour they had it infalliblie when they were to determine matters of Religion but they did further declare vnto Christians this Assistance and direction which they had ēioyed and did puhlishe it to be beleeued by the Church For the decree which after much dispute and inquisition they made in their generall meeting at Ierusalem they begin thus It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs. Acts 15. v. ◠affirming by these words plainlie and proposing allso to Christians to beleeue their publique act and decree to be the act and decree of the holie Ghost And if it were his allso then he with them made it assisting and directing them in the doing as our Sauiour had promised he should doe And herein the Apostles gaue example to their Successors to vnderstand our Sauiours promise so and to beleeue and doe so as they haue vnderstood it and beleeued and done The place is cleere The thing is vndeniable 40. As these Masters of Christianitie had vnderstood beleeued done assuring themselues and others of diuine assistance in their common definition and decree by reason of our Sauiours promise without any more adoe he being God and therfore meaning as he said and as good as his promise so did their successors vnderstand beleeue and doe in regard the promise was made foreuer And therfore they allso beleeued and assured others of diuine assistance in their common definition and decree by reason of the same promise This the pastors assembled in generall Councells haue done euer since and the Christian people in communion with these Councells haue beleeued it Those Christians which liued in the first age did beleeue that the Apostles had by vertue of our Sauiours promise diuine assistāce to propose and spred the Gospell and to teach rightlie the word of God and that they were therfore to be beleeued in all which by generall consent they did propose or wherein they did all agree so that the Predestinate ād all others might securelie beleeue as they taught and goe on towards heauen that way which they pointed out The Church in the second age did beleeue that the Church in the first age had the Assistance of the diuine spirit by vertue of the promise of Iesus Christ and therevppon beleeued allso that
manners all most infinite And further yet there is and hath ben controuersie about the rule it self as which it is how much is Scripture which booke which chapter which verse is or is not holy Scripture what is the meaning of this or that verse which controuersies must be decided otherwise there will neuer be vnitie and consent about the diuine Word rule and lawe Now these things cannot be determined without Diuine Assistance as I argued before and for the Vnitie in Religion and the CommunioÌ„ and Perpetuitie power to determine them is necessarie wherefore since our Sauiours Prouidence was not deficient it followes that there is and in the Church such power and Assistance 47. Fourthlie if the holie ministerie in the Church of God be established as a rule of mens faith to the end they be not in their faith wauering and borne about with euery winde of newe doctrine to the circumuention of errour then is it by Gods assistance and perpetuall watch and direction infallible but the sacred ministerie of the Church of God is thus established by Iesus Christ which I proue by the testimonie of S. Paule before alleadged he Christ Ephes 4. v. 11. c. gaue some Apostles aÌ„d other some Pastors and Doctors to the consummation of the Saints vnto the worke of the ministerie vnto the edifying of the bodie of Christ vntill wee meete all into the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God into the measure of the age of the fullnes of Christ that now wee be not children wauering and caried about with euerie wind of doctrine in the wickednes of men in craftines to the circumuention of errour 47. Fiftly since you distinguish the doctrine of faith into fundamentall and not fundamentall it followes that the Apostles had put into their mouthes for instruction of Gods people doctrine allso not fundameÌ„tall Iohn 15. v. 15. all thinges whatsoeuer I hard of my father I haue notified vnto you said our Sauiour to the Apostles Whence I inferre also that that doctrine shall neuer out of their mouthes or the mouthes of their successors while the world endures and proue it by Gods couenant of assistance Isay 5â— my spiritte that is in thee and my wordes that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth aÌ„d out of the mouth of thy seede aÌ„d out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer And by the promise of our blessed Sauiour Isay 14. v. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Paraclete the holy Ghost whome the Father will send in my name he shall teach you all thinges and suggest vnto you all thinges whatsoeuer I shall say to you 49. That you may the better vnderstand this peece of diuinitie which doth oft occurre I will spend a litle more tyme in it to let you know first that you and the rest of your fellowes in this matter doe crosse and contradict your owne selues For touching other pointes pointes of religioÌ„ and gods word which you saie are not fundamentall Further Confirmation of the former arguments either there is certaine knowledge to be had of them or there is not make choise of which you please If you be not certaine you must confesse you doubt of the truth of such pointes and of the meaning of Gods word in all places by vs alleadged which are not fundamentall and that you confidentlie auouch in the pulpitte and maintaine against vs in the matters of reall presence iustificatioÌ„ merit workes of Supererogation sacrifice inuocation of Sainctes c. that which you doubt whether it be as you saie or noe If you be certaine either you meane that the Spiritte doth assist and assure you in more then fundamentalles which indeed is your ordinarie pulpite bragge where none dispute with you and consequentlie you must graunt against your distinction that the assistance of the Spiritte is extended further then to your pretended fundamentalles or you meane that you are not assured by the Spiritte but onelie by your witte which witt you oppose to the witte and iudgment of all the Church in diuine matters And if it be thus you contradict you selues because at home you say you resolue it not into your owne witte but into the Spirit 50. You answeare that by illation you conclude against vs but who knowes not that the difficultie is about the sense of the place from whence you offer to conclude against vs and that first you must be certaine of this sense before you can extract any thing out of it by good consequeÌ„ce I demaund therfore whether you be certaine of the sense or noe if you be not you are not certaine of the conclusion which you draw there hence as euery logitian can tell if you be then I demaund how since mans witte in diuine matters may mistake and this you confesse assistance of the Spiritte you haue not or if you pretend to haue it then confesse that in your owne iudgment it is extended in Gods promise to more then fundamentalles 51. Secondlie you contradict the whole Church aÌ„d her spiritte in this foolish affirmatioÌ„ of the Churches errour in pointes not fuÌ„damentall as you call them A second Confirmation And this I proue because all ChristiaÌ„s that euer were in the coÌ„munion of the Church hetherto did submitte their iudgmeÌ„t to the generall iudgmeÌ„t of the Church in the age before them beleeuing all whatsoeuer was theÌ„ generallie aÌ„d without exception beleeued whether the point were one of those which you call fundamentall or were not one of them in somuch that you are not able to name any one point held generallie without exception in any former age to be matter of faith though it were not one of your fundamentalles which point was reiected by the Church generallie in any ensuing age And to giue all the scope in this you can desire take all the tyme from the comming of the assisting Spiritt which was the whitsontide next after our Sauiours ascension to this present yeare But be sure you obserue diligentlie what I haue said in this argument and doe not speake of thinges which are not to this purpose either because they were not generallie and without exception esteemed matters of faith by the Church Catholique or because the contradiction tradition was not the act of the Church but of some priuate man either mistakeÌ„ by ignoraÌ„ce the Church not approuing his assertion or pertinaciously a uouching it â—n Hereticke and so without and none of vs. 3. Confirmation 52. The truth of that which I haue said is further yet manifest in this that all whosoeuer were generallie condemned for Heretiques in any former age by the Church were esteemed so by the Church in following tymes whether their Heresies were in matters you call fundamentall or not as he may see who will runne ouer the Heresies of former tymes whence it followes elderlie that
haue answeared them I goe to the second verse and demaund all the same And theÌ„ I goe to the third aÌ„d demauÌ„d all the same And when this Chapter is done I goe to the next and so on forwards thorough the Bible verse after verse till I come to the last verse in the Apocalyps or Reuelation 62. You will peraduenture meruaile that I doe include that booke too because it is full of obscure mysteries notwithstanding I will alonge thorough that allso with all these demaunds for there are meanes to knowe that it is the word of God and the Assistance of the spirit is sufficient to open the sense of each verse when the circumstances doe require it and you dispute against vs out of it and alleage vnder the title of manifest Scripture free from all ambiguitie the deepest mysteries that are there Moreouer the Prophecies there contained will be manifest in the end as the prophecies in the ould Testament of the Messias aÌ„d his Church are now opeÌ„ to the world The spiritte allso doth open to learned men many thiÌ„gs in the scripture which are hiddeÌ„ froÌ„ the vulgar aÌ„d are not yet by generall decree defined because the coÌ„moÌ„ exigeÌ„ce of the Church requires not the open and publique notice of theÌ„ yet these might be defined if need were as many things by occasioÌ„ of your heresies infesting and endangering Gods people haue bene of late 63. You will allso woÌ„der that I speake of many senses but I haue reasoÌ„ to saie as I doe because Gods word is full of sense as before I said and some tyme so many seÌ„ses doe occurre in the same speach that it is not easie to determine which God intendeth or whether he doth inteÌ„d more theÌ„ one And that I goe not further to fetch examples the words now cited are very hard In the begining God created heauen and earth what is this begining what kind of making doth he speake of what doth he meane by heauen and earth * In the begining God created heauen and earth It is not easie to finde the sense of these words as you will conceaue if you attend and ponder each the begining What is it is it the begining of time which he meanes or the begining of the works of God before he made time or is this begining Gods eternall word or what other thing is signified by these 64. Sainct Augustine a greate Scholler and a man of the Church primitiue and one of Gods elect did search with great diligence and earnest prayer in his ould age for the sense of this place as you may reade in the twelfth booke of his Confessions where hauing acknowledged the scriptureâ—â—o be so profound that it is horrour to looke into theÌ„ he brings many senses of these words and after a longe discussion Aug. l. 12. Confess c. 31. and serious Weighing of the difficultie concludes thus when one saith the prophet vnderstood that which I doe and another that which I. I thiÌ„ke I speake more religiouslie why not both if both be true and if any bodie seeth in these words some third thing or fourth or some other at all whatsoeuer why may not he be beleeued to haue seene all those things by whom one God hath tempered holie writ to many mens iudgments which were to see diuers things then he adds something in commendation of that full kinde of stile and in fine resolues In any wise when he wrote these words he vnderstood and thought whatsoeuer truth wee could find and whatsoeuer wee could not or cannot yet but may be fouÌ„d in them Marke this deuinitie well and remember whose it is 65. I forbeare to speake of the Assistance giuen to the prophets and Euangelists aÌ„d Apostles in all they did write and publish as Gods word which doth affoord me an other argumeÌ„t as hard for you to answere as the former I will not here discouer the gap you laie open to infinite Heresies about admitting about vnderstanding the word of God I loathe to let the world see how scandalous your doctrine iâ—â—â—w you oppose Christianitie vnder the colour of reformatioÌ„ aÌ„d doe what you can to shake the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the faith that others may stagger in all as you peraduenture doe aÌ„d so the deuill get the day But all your endeuours poore men come to short you shoot your arrowes against heaueÌ„ which they hurt not but wouÌ„d your selues in the returne The Church of God is built on a rocke and a fewe words defend it such is the power of the words of Iesus Christ against all that Heretiques and Pagans and Persecutors and impostors and deuills Matt. 16.18 can attempt Thou art Peeter and vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it These words haue defended it these sixteene hundred years against all aduersaries whatsoeuer and wee were fooles if now wee should be afraid Wee are safe wee are secure The sonne of God is our foundation the holie Ghost is our direction and our Lord round about vs for euer I conclude and because you seeme to take the SCRIPTVRE the SPIRIT IESVS CHRIST for iudges of controuersies when you talke at home before your parish to stop this bragge of yours I heere present this controuersie of ours about the assistance to the SCRIPTVRE to the diuine SPIRIT to IESVS CHRIST in these termes whether the Spirit be to teach some truthes onelie which you call fundamentall or others allso which you call not fundamentall The answeare is ALL. Io. 16.13 The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth These be Gods words I beleeue them and here I rest THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Shewing how Catholikes all beleue the same though some more distinctly then others and the reason why Heretickes agree not 66. THat I may impart vnto you now the manner of discourse which I forme vnto my selfe sometymes in this businesse you must vnderstaÌ„d that the all-teaching Spirit or Holie Ghost is the Spirit of Vnitie aÌ„d that his Organ is the Church wherin he remaines aÌ„d teaches as I haue declared This Spiritte by the foresaid organ or mouth of the Church deliuers the true sense of the Scripture and those which beleeue and submitte their vnderstaÌ„dïg to this iudgmeÌ„t aÌ„d visible tribunall are all one in faith euerie one beleeuing ALL which the Church thus assisted doth hold aÌ„d beleeue and therfore all the same If I thought you coÌ„ceaued not my meaniÌ„g I would deliuer my selfe plainer thus The doctrine of the Catholique Church all together or the collection of points which it holds is but one summe of doctrine or collection of points And not onelie the bodie of the Church takeÌ„ in grosse but euerie Catholique doth beleeue it all And therfore take any two Catholiques whom soeuer where and whensoeuer they liued and their beleefe is the same to the last point or title because each beleeues all that the other beleeues as I haue said But the thing which troubles you
is your ignorance in the manner 67. Knowe therefore secondlie that two waies a mā may beleeue all which the Church teacheth to be true One waie is by acknowledging each point of her doctrine in particular because the Spirit of God in and by her doth auouch it and this faith is vnfoulded An other is by acknowledging in generall and as it were in grosse all to be true which the Church doth teach not descending into the particular consideration of each and this is implicite or infolded faith because in it are infolded all the particulars which the Church doth teach 68. By this distinction of vnfoulded and infoulded faith you now know my meaning and it is this That the faith of all Catholikes both learned ād vnlerned late ād aūciēt is not equallie vnfoulded but yet is all one because that is infolded in ones faith which is vnfoulded with an other And thus a man who reades the Scripture and still doth increase in diuine knowledge learning dailie more and more is of the same religion and the same faith all the while Thus are the people ād their pastors of the same religion though the pastors knowe and beleeue more in particular then the clownes euer heard of Thus was S. Augustine and his mother Monica of one religion though she knewe not all the deuinitie or poīts of faith or Scripture in particular which he knewe Thus were the Corinthians and S. Paul thus are wee and the old Fathers the Fathers and the Apostles of the same religiō and thus is the later Church and the primitiue vnited in faith Because nothing is generallie beleeued now which was not then generallie beleeued though now something be more vnfolded in the generall beleefe of the communitie I saie nothing of some eminent men of those tymes then was by the multitude beleeued in particular or vnfolded then and something might haue bene then vnfolded which is not so commonlie knowne at this tyme. And no doubt but the Apostles knewe more in particular then mē doe nowe 69. By the same doctrine you may vnderstād howe the Catholiques in the whole body frō the Apostles to this daie though infinite haue bene all of one religion and the same with vs notwithstāding that each clowne knewe not all in particular which the learned did yea notwithstāding many learned knewe not all in particular And the reason is because in this principle I beleeue as the Church and followe her iudgment in matter of faith each had ALL whether he were learned or vnlearned and euerie Catholique did this and he who did it not was no Catholique 70. You thinke peraduenture that no two are exactlie of the same religiō vnles their faith be equallie distinct in obiect and vnfolded equallie which conceipt if it were true none were of the same religion with the Apostles in their tyme nor with the holie Fathers in theirs who beleeued not distinctlie and in particular as many points as they did which is a grosse errour in Christianitie and makes as many religions allmost as men Are you in your parish all of one religion or not if you are then by your rule who cannot abide implicite faith each old wife and yonge girle knowes as much in particular in the Bible and Deuinitie as your selfe or if they doe not I praie you tell me how they be exactlie of the same religion with you I knowe you will runne to fundamentalls but the shift will not serue because agreement in fundamentalls in your sense doth not suffize to the exact agreement in religion for wee and you be not of one religiō as all the world knowes and yet you saie that wee disagree not in fundamētalls and indeede there are infinite waies to erre against Faith otherwise he that did obstinatelie denie all the Bible and euerie verse of it excepting those onelie wherin is one of your fundamentalls which fundamētalls as you recon them are verie fewe and contained in the Creede with baptisme and the supper he I saie who did obstinatelie this were no Heretique but a man of your religion exactlie howsoeuer he be detested by the Christian world 71. Hauing declared the reason whie Catholiques are all of one religion by reason of their common vnion in one vniuersall principle containing their particular consent in the rest as occasion doth require to which generall principle they are all moued by the words and promise of Iesus Christ it is not amisse now to looke about for the originall cause why Heretiques are not all of one religion since they resolue all or pretend to resolue their faith into the Scripture or the Spirit I neede not goe farre to finde it out for it is knowne by the definition of an Heretique He is a man who makes his owne election by his priuate iudgment in matter of religion And thence it is that hauing cast of Church authoritie ād putt his owne witt in place to iudge each takes where and what he likes and their iudgments being diuers they take diuers things and expound diuerslie 74. Neither doth the scripture serue the turne in this case first because there is disagreement which is Scripture which cause must be first determined by some iudge and this iudge to each Heretick is his owne witt Secōdlie it is obscure ād therefore there is infinite varietie in guessing at the meaning of it as wee see by the experience of many hundred yeares and in this case likewise each Heretique doth adore his owne iudgment As for the spirit that of God is not among Heretiques but in the Church as I haue prooued since therfore they are not the Church and their Spirit opposite it followes that it is another and that erroneous And by the mulplicitie of iudgments and contradictions among them selues it appeares euidentlie that they are many and no meruaile since each crowcheth vnto his owne since each hath his Maozim within himselfe This therfore is the reason whie Arians Nestorians Lutherans c. though they be all against the Catholique be not of one religion among them selues 73. Neither would the consequence be good if you should argue thus Luther receaues the letter of Scripture and Caluin receaues the letter of Scripture therefore Luther and Caluin are of one Religion it doth not hold I say since they receaue not the same sense nor are vnited in any one common meane to receaue it And were the argument good it would prooue Caluinists and Arians to be of the same Religion since each receaue the letter 74. Hence it comes allso that all Heretiques cannot haue one definition but that euery one is to be defined according to the points he doth hold in particular because of his difference from others in the sense though perhaps he admitte the letter with others And in taking this sense he is not bounded by any authoritie common to him and to other Heretiques but onelie by his owne will and conceit Since therefore there is difference amonge Heretiques and that this
founde to hold with one and the same meaning and consent that without all scruple aÌ„d doubt must be the true and Catholique doctrine of the Church Whosoeuer beleeue that Christ came in our flesh and that he arose from death to life in the same flesh in which he was borne and suffered S. Aug. de Vnit. Eccl. c. 4. and that he is the sonne of God God with God and one with the Father and the one vnchangeable word of the Father by which all things are made but do so disagree with his body which is the Church that they hold not communion with the whole as farre as euer it is spred about the world but are found separate in some part or corner it is manifest that they are not in the Catholique Church Prosp de promiss praedic Dei par 4. c. 5. The Apostles Peeter and Paul deliuering in the cittie of Rome to posterity the doctrine of our Lord peaceable and one haue consecrated the Church of the Gentiles with their blood and memories according to the passioÌ„ of our Lord. A ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„municating with this generall Church is a Catholique S. Cypri de Vnit. Eccl. He that is separated froÌ„ it is an Heretique There is one heade aÌ„d one origeÌ„ aÌ„d one mother by the issue of her fecuÌ„ditie copious by her increase wee are borne wee are nourished with her milke with her spirit wee are animated The Spouse of Christ cannot be defiled with adultery shee is pure and honest She knoweth one house and with chast bashfullnes keepeth the sanctity of one bed This Church preserueth vs in God this aduanceth to the kingdome the children she hath brought foorth VVhosoeuer deuided from this Church cleaueth to the adultresse he is separated from the promises of the Church He cannot haue God his Father who hath not the Church to his mother In the Church S. Iren. l. 9 adu Haereâ— c. 40. God hath constituted Apostles Prophets Doctors and all the rest of the operation of the Spirit of which those are not partakers who repaire not vnto the Church VVhere the Church is THERE IS THE SPIRIT of God and where the Spirit of God is there is the Church and all grace Idem l. â— c. 4â— VVee must obay those Priests that are in the Church those that haue Succession from the Apostles who tegeather with Episcopall power haue according to the good pleasure of the Father receaued the certaine guift of truth And all the rest who depart from the originall Succession wheresoeuer they be assembled to haue suspected either as Heretiques or Schismatiques or Hypocrites â—actant â— 4. 〈◊〉 â—nstitut c. â—lt and all these doe fall from the truth It is onely the Catholique Church that hath the true worship and seruice of God This is the wellspring of truth the dwelling place of faith the temple of God into which whosoeuer entreth not and from which whosoeuer departeth is without all hope of life 〈◊〉 Aug. de â—de ad â—et c. 39. and eternall Saluation Hold for most certaine and vndoubted that no Heretique nor Schismatique though baptized in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy Ghost though he giue almes neuer so largely yea though he shed his blood for the name of Christ can possiblie be saued vnles he be reconciled vnto the Catholique Church 70. I omit many other graue speaches of holie Fathers to this effect of consenting with the Church in faith and submitting our iudgment thereunto And of S. Augustine particularlie whom I do alleage more willinglie because you preteÌ„d to honour him as where he saith for his part he would not beleeue the Gospell 〈◊〉 Aug. coÌ„t Ep. fund c. â— vnles the authoritie of the Church moued him That he was held in the Church by the consent of people â— c. 4. and Nations by an authoritie begotten with miracles nourished with hope increased by antiquitie And that it is a point of most insolent madnes to dispute whether that be to be obserued which is frequented by the whole Church through the world Ep. 118. c. â— Moreouer what S. Augustine said of S. Cyprian he might haue said of any other father to wit that he would haue yelded to the authority of the Church Neither would the Fathers hold communion with any who did oppose themselues to the definitions of generall Councells or to the doctrine of the Church but held them for Heretiques 81. And thus much for this point wherein I haue not alleaged the foresaid authorities to moue you for I knowe that in your * Vide I. Rain Concl. 2. fine conscience you will not yeeld to the Fathers neither a part nor all together in Generall Councell nor stoope to their Spirit nor beleeue their Creede But I haue done it to shewe you that I haue learned of them the doctrine which I tould you and that by their exaÌ„ple I do submit my vnderstaÌ„ding to the Church in all coÌ„trouersies and securelie rest in her iudgmeÌ„t For she with infinite eies doth allwayes diligentlie looke on Gods word aÌ„d with infinite care aÌ„d industrie attends vnto the truth Good wits though learned may mistake each scholler is not a SaiÌ„t the guifts of the Spirit are deuided amoÌ„g meÌ„ But all the treasure of the spirit all the Saints aÌ„d Predestinate the highest Authoritie aÌ„d all meanes possible for mortall men to learne the truth are in the Church There the Angells of the Gospell deliuer the will of the diuine Maiestie there the Secretaries of heauen do register Gods words and there Iesus Christ our Master doth teach and bringe vp his Elect and prepare them for his high Schoole of deuinitie wherein the Cherubins and Seraphins haue their order From * You say that wee obtrude vnto you doctrine for diuine which is not such For the nouice in Controuersie at some parts of the Bible Inuocation of Saincts Purgatorie wee denie that wee propose any thing for diuine and reuealed which is not indeede diuine and reuealed This is therefore a Controuersie betwixt vs. What way is there to know the truth in this controuersie The Spirit where In the Church Againe you say wee interprete the Scriptures wrong wee denie it what Iudge The spiritte of truth where In the Schoole of Iesus Christ VVhich is this Schoole The Church VVhich is the Church That which is in communion with Vrbanus 8. Reflect well on this discourse and make the like on all occasioÌ„s in any CoÌ„trouersie of faith whatsoeuer Is it a controuersie you speake of or is it agreed on both sides If a Controuersie and in Religion the truth may be knowne The question then comes Who it to Iudge And the Answer is The spirit In Whom in The Church But you will aske why must wee stand to the Iudgment of the Spirit in the Church rather then to the iudgment of the Spirit in N. N. as in Iohn Caluin for example I answere because wee knowe
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
all did which you will neuer prooue as long as the Bible is extant If you reade Exodus in the two and thitieth chapter you shall finde that when Moyses had saide if any man be our Lords let him ioyne to me there gathered vnto him all the Sonnes of Leuie Exod. 32.26 And these were no small company as you may gather out of the booke of Numbers Num. 3. v. 39. Next you say Elias did complaine that he was left alone This makes a shewe and is repeted ouer and ouer in your books and your pulpittes The truth is that there were at the same tyme diuers in Israel where this Prophet was 3. Kings 19. v. 18. Rom. 11.4 which bowed not before Baal of which number God said to Elias he would reserue seauen thousand And at the same tyme allso in the kingdome of Iuda there was publique profession of the true religion at Ierusalem Wherefore you cannot prooue by this place that the Church failed and was not visible on the earth if wee would graunt you as you haue seene wee neede not that it was not visible in the kingdome of Israel at that tyme. Neither was it necessarie to the visibilitie of it that it should be still visible in both kingdomes one of thē onelie doth suffice for this purpose in case all in the other had forsaken God Let vs now come to the Catholique and Christian Church 86. In the second argument you taxe the Apostles 1. Rainold◠and first accuse S. Peeter of false doctrine because he was reprehended by S. Paul Then further you condemne the Apostles all of errour against faith in not beleeuīg the resurrection To that of S. Peeter which old Heretiques obiected it was answeared fourteene hundred yeers agoe that it was a fault of conuersation which he was taxed for not of doctrine The fault is set downe by S. Paul in these words Gal. 2.12 for before certaine came frō Iames he Peeter did eate with the Gentiles but when they were come he withdrewe and separated himselfe fearing them that were of the circumcision This cariage of S. Peeter S. Paul did repre-to Iudaize his making others by his example hend and was in this But here is no false doctrine maintained ād published by him much lesse by the Apostles all taught and generallie by the Church beleeued whereof wee speake now In the conuersatiō of the Popes which you taxe by this occasion there may haue bene faults allso for they were men but from them in generall Councells there hath come no false doctrine nor euer will 87. The second parr of your obiection hath no difficultie because wee knowe that the Apostles did learne the particulars of faith by degrees as you may obserue easilie in the Gospell ād their slownes to beleeue the point mentioned but not any errour maintained by them for Christian doctrine was reprehended Neither was the all-teaching Spirit as yet come our Sauiour not being ascended who therefore did instruct thē in the matter his owne selfe Now the thinge that wee defend is not that the Apostles beleeued all in particular from the first tyme they were called or that in conuersation nothing euer hapned amisse in any one of them but that after the comming of the holie Ghost the Catholique Church did neuer beleeue or teach errour in matter of faith which I would haue you to read ouer and ouer that you mistake not the matter but argue to the purpose 88. A third argument which I thought good to put in this place touches the resolution of our faith into the Church which resolution seemes not firme because it is made into authoritie not diuine To this I answeare that the authoritie of the Church alone if you consider it apart not adding thereunto the authoritie of the Assisting Spirit is greater then any other authoritie in the world that is distinct from the diuine authoritie And this by reason of an infinite multitude of learned and holy men which are in it of infinite miracles which doe giue testimonie of a greatnes which nature wonders at of the strange vnion of worlds of people in one obscure faith with a constancie which neither flattery nor feare can shake which vnion doth acknowledge no cause in nature since nature inclines not so constantlie to communion ād vniforme iudgment in things not found in nature as God incarnate the sonne in substance and power all one with his Father ād yet distinct in person and the like The authoritie I say of the Church by reason of these and such other motiues is the greatest of all authorities among men in so much that no other is any way equall to it and therfore none able to drawe a wise man from it 89. Yet this alone is not the thing wherevnto wee do make the last resolution of our faith But wee make it into the testimonie of allmightie God in the Church This testimonie doth originallie moue our faith The sunne is allwayes visible in it selfe but cannot be seene of vs vnles it be in the Orbe aboue our hemisphere and when it is risen the eleuation doth not principallie moue our eie but the sunne in that eleuation doth moue it to see both sunne and heauen and all other things which the light comes vppon So Gods eternall word of it selfe is euer apt to moue and to be seene though wee cannot discouer it with the eie of faith vnles it be exposed or proposed to vs in the firmament of the Church or some other way equiualent But if it be so applied our faith discerns the word and the Church proposing it and all other things that are reuealed Wherein the Church-proposition doth concurre instrumentallie with subordination to the Word of God and of them both in seuerall kinds our faith depends 90. Wee resolue therefore into authoritie truely diuine into the diuine Spirit teaching in the Church Or if you will haue a longer way which in effect is all one wee do resolue into the present Church assisted with the Spirit This present Church doth resolue into the Church in the former age assisted by the Spirit that againe into a former age ād so to the Apostles they resolue into Christ Where you finde the like as before that is the eternall and increated word mouing by way of humane speach and the Apostles faith depending though diuerslie on both at once that is on the eternall word as on the originall motiue and on the word of his mouth as on the Application 91. If you would haue yet another waie take the motiues of faith all together or the collection of them as applications and the prime veriry as formall obiect and you haue all that you iustlie can desire In the collectiō of motiues I doe include the whole Church these sixteene hundred yeares and the Apostles and Iesus Christ as he appeared and taught and all the miracles done in cōfirmation of the Christian Catholique faith the conuersion of the world from bad
this bodie one whereof visible men are members and Predestinate allso members of the same then are there not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible Now it is most certaine by the testimonie of holie Scripture that the Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ ād that this mysticall bodie is but one wherein are visible and predestinated persons therefore there are not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible two bodies one visible the other inuisible but all appertaine to one bodie and one Church I confirme this out of S. Paul who in his Epistle the Ephesians saith that God the Father hath made Christ the heade ouer all the Church which is his bodie Ephes 1. v 22.23 Ch. 4. v. 13. In this Church the Apostle saith Christ put Apostles pastors c. till wee all meete into the vnitie of faith which is till the end of the world Chap. 2.19 Ch. 1. v. 13. and in the same Church are the citizens of the Saincts the domesticalls of God Those which are signed with the holie Ghost of promise which is the pledge of our inheritance in fine the predestinate and S. Paul himselfe was in this Church This one bodie therefore had these two attributs to wit it was visible for hauing in it intrinsecallie and for euer publike persons Pastors Doctors it might thereby be seene and heard and it had in it the predestinate which you call inuisible men whence it followes that visible and inuisible in that sense leaue it still as it was one bodie 105. Fiftlie our greate Pastors fould is one not two as your distinction makes it He hath one fould and that is visible For the Church of God is visible as I haue manifestlie declared before and to this fould his predestinate are all brought out of what Nation out of what part of the world soeuer Other sheepe I haue that are not of this fold a fould wherein the Apostles were Iohn 10.16 men visible to the whole world and wherein their successors are men allso visible thē allso I must bringe ād they shall heare my voice and there shall be made one fould and one Pastor Heere by the testimonie of Iesus Christ the fould the Church is one away then with your distinction beleeue one as wee doe which is visible in which the predestinate people are 106. And indeede where should one looke for our Sauiours Schollers but in his Schoole where should wee looke for Gods domesticalls but in his howse where should wee looke for his members but in his body where should wee looke for holie people for predestinate for Saincts but in the Church And therefore hauing demonstrated before which is the Church this labour might haue bene spared For as I answeared of the Spirit that you should not challenge him till you had prooued that yours was the Church a taske vnpossible so now I may answeare of holie people of predestinate of Saints that you do not callenge any till you haue prooued which you will not doe as longe as God is God that yours is the Church 107. It is verily a ridiculous thing to see what Churches you frame in your imagination One full of words euer preaching all mouth but without Spirit without hart without sowle The other full of the Protestant Spirit but silent and ashamed of her owne doctrine in so much that for a thousand yeeres together she was dombe a church without a mouth The mouth and hart you knowe are both parts of one man the hart is within and is not seene but by the mouth in the mouth it doth shewe it self in what forme it pleaseth to affect The Church too hath hart and mouth hart to beleeue to loue God and mouth to praise inuoake and professe him These make not two Churches they are two parts of one God hath promised these two to one and the same Church his spirit is allwayes in her hart and his words allwayes in her mouth I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other Paraclete Io 14 v. 15 16.17 that he may abide which you for euer the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not nor knoweth him But you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you Thus our Sauiour to his Apostles publike ād visible persons and in them to the visible Church Isay 59.21 Rom. 10. v. 9.10 My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c for euer If thou confesse with thy mouth our Lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him vp from the deade thou shalt be saued for with the hart wee beleeue vnto iustice but with the mouth confession is made to Saluation Gods Church therefore hath both hart and mouth in her hart she hath Gods Spirit in her mouth his word and these are not two Churches but one Church 108. Neither doth predestination make it inuisible as childishly you imagine The predestinatiō it selfe indeede is inuisible vnto vs it is Gods purpose and decree and therefore is in God as mans purposes are in the mind of man and those purposes euen in men are secret and hidden till the men reueale them But the predestinated as I said before are as visible as other men So was S. Peeter S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles the Martyres of Iesus Christ were visible otherwise how could they haue bene tortured as they were The Doctors were visible S. Ierome and S. Augustine were knowne farre and neere ād to come neerer to our tyme S. Francis S. Thomas of Aquin S. Bonauenture S. Charles Boromeus were visible yet predestinate whereby it is most euident that predestination doth not make men inuisible they may be publike persons and knowne to all the world and predestinate allso And so may the Church be both predestinate and visible too And is so though euery man in the Church be not predestinate some are there more then number as in a mans body there are some parts superfluous which will not be resumed in the resurrection as I said in the former booke and these parts are like the rest they communicate with the rest they beleeue as the rest but they doe not perseuer as the rest Now which those are that will perseuere finallie which will not God hath reserued as a secret vnto himselfe He hath not as yet made any secretarie coppie out of the booke of life The sanctitie of some in all tymes he makes knowne for the example and encouragmēt and confirmation of others by such signes as he pleaseth such as you reade in the liues of Saincts penned by saincts allso by S. Athanasius S. Ierome S. Augustine S. Gregorie of Nice S. Gregorie the greate S. Bede S. Bernard S. Bonauenture and others who in their workes haue related diuers wōderfull things of holie men and this is a further argument
had allwayes Gods Spirit in her hart and Gods word in her mouth which hath conuerted Nations condemned Heresies assembled Councelles maintained order administred Sacraments and bred Saincts To the Church described in the Scripture To the visible To the Catholique Church 119. It may be that your selfe by this tyme are wearie of your owne inuention to the end therefore I may giue you scope to interprete your selfe better then you haue done hetherto I will aske a question or two more and make and end Either it is sufficient to saluation to followe the instruction of the visible Church or no if it be not sufficient then God hath not prouided sufficient meanes for instruction for without a preacher men cannot beleeue as I haue tould you oft from S. Paul If it be sufficient then leaue vs to followe this instruction to be directed by this Church wee haue that wee looke for I haue prooued heretofore that the Church hath Gods words euer in her mouth and that she deliuereth true doctrine without errour fundamentall or other I demaund now whether the predestinate do beleeue this doctrine this religiō thus perpetuallie taught or not if they doe not they be not of the true Religion they be not the sheepe of Christ for his sheepe doe heare his voice Io. 10. they may be your predecessors they are not ours they are Saincts of your making but not Gods elect If they doe then this visible Church ād Gods predestinate are all of one Religiō one faith one body mysticall they all make one Church Speake plainlie man the Religion which God maketh the Church to professe allwaies is it true or false if false how is it Gods instruction You haue profited sure exceedinglie by your Spirit if now you taxe God with false doctrine if it be true wee may followe it wee must followe it The predestinated people are they of this Religion thus professed or are they of an other if of an other Gal. 1. ◠Cor. 16. I haue nothing to doe with them anathema anathema if they be of this Religion all is well 120. To conclud that the Church of God is one and visible and that the predestinate are in it hath bene the sense and faith of all the Catholique world who haue all hoped to be saued in this Church in the visible Church of God it hath bene the faith of all the auncient Fathers and Doctors of the Church who acknowledged themselues children of it and were directed by it it hath bene the faith of the Saincts and predestinate themselues who did here beleeue as wee doe and God hath by miracles and other wayes manifested their sanctitie vnto the world And finallie it is the sense of the Spirit of the Catholique Church which cannot erre in such a point as I haue prooued larglie and you in your grounds should confesse because the thing is fundamentall and therefore it is a signe of extraordinarie stupiditie or malice or both to stagger in it THE SEVENTH CHAPTER Two other arguments are answered 121. IF any of your arguments should escape vntouched you would bragge of their streingth and therefore I am glad I haue ouertaken other two before they gette out of my memorie The first is Whittak Rainolds That which may happē to any one may happē to all or to euerie one But to erre may happē to any Church adde for ought you know for thus it did happē to the Churches of Thiatira Corinth c. therefore it may happē to euery one or to all ād so all at ōce may erre Thus you I haue some cause to thinke you haue a wide mouth suppose you cā thrust ā egge into it A clowne there might dispute in your forme ād moode thus That which may happē to any one of the egges in your parish may happen to all or to euerie one but to be thrust into your mouth at once may happen to any one of those egges therefore it may happen to them all and then your mouth will be stopt Now if one mouthfull be not inough for your dinner you may fall next to the meate and eate it all euery bit for that which may happen to any bit may happē to euery bit the clowne your Scholler would say and ofterwards at the same meale you might drinke all the drinke euery cupfull euery drop 122. Suppose all the men in England should cast the dice for a thousand pound with these conditiōs that the first which threwe twelue with two dice should haue it and if none threwe twelue the monie should be yours To see faire play ād to doe you all the fauour wee can wee will suppose the dice to be iust ād no tricke vsed at all The first may throwe ames ace I suppose the least for your good but it is fiue to one he will not Yet admitt he doth It is fiue to one the second doth not yet admitt his cast be ames ace too for what chāce might happen to the other might happen to him Thus I will run on till I come to twentie and surelie it is much that twentie one after another should haue the same cast and the dice exactlie iust It is not probable that it would hould on so to a hundred yet what might happen to any one might happen say you to euery one It is incredible it should goe on in the same chāce to a thousand yet in your logicke this guggion must be swallowed after his fellowes But that it should run thorough them all it is not possible for then fortune would be constant and cōtingencie would prooue to be a neeessity which no man will say who knowes what he saith yet this must downe your throate too for what may happen to any one may happen to euerie one that so in the end you may get to your selfe the thousand pound The like might happen if all the men that are in the world should cast the dice and should haue done so euer since dice were first inuented because what might happen to any one might as you say happen to euery one And when each had throwne he might die before you and cōsequentlie all might doe so in your principles so you should be the onelie man a liue ād haue all their money too And thus much to let you see the weake forme of your argumēt which nothwithstādīg is one of the maine foundatiōs where on your mē do build their doctrine of the fallibility of Gods Church 123. Now to the matter of the argument I answeare that allmighiie God is infinite and therfore none can hinder his designe or make frustrate his intention Wherfore since he hath decreed to keepe allwayes to the worlds end a Church on earth infallible in doctrine as I haue declared by the testimony of holy Scripture his prouidence will effect it and make it perseuere in what persons and what places he please Wee haue no reuelation thath the true faith shall perseuere allwayes in France or in
what you list you set vppon the Pastor It is defined in the Councell of Florence that the Bisshop of Rome is successor to sainct Peeter and that he hath receaued in him sainct Peeter from our Sauiour power to feede and to gouerne the whole Church This is one of the things which you cannot abide a Superiour you thinke is a heauie burden ād therefore you would shake him of The Apostles say you were according to Cyprian equall in honour and dignitie Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Ieron adu Iou. Leo ep 84. The strength of the Church was equallie established on them all in the opinion of Hierom and with Leo they had a likenes in honour This is the first onset wherein you shewe neither skill nor iudgment You had but latelie discharged all the Fathers for vnable men and therefore it was an vnaduised part in you now to summō them to fight vnder your colours for you may iustlie feare that in tyme of tryall they will declare themselues to be ō our side who haue euer reuerēced and defended thē ād not on yours where they and the Church authoritie and the Spirit of Gods Church are dis-esteemed and contemned 3. But I answeare that before S. Peeter was made Pastor the Apostles were all equall after he was made Pastor they were not equall S. Peeter was then chiefe ād Superior The rest of the Apostles had power giuen them to preach the Gospell to forgiue sinnes to binde ād loose to doe miracles but onelie S. Peeter had the prerogatiue of Pastor as the Scripture doth euidentlie declare And heereby he was otherwise compared vnto the flocke then any of the rest ◠c. 6. n. 52 with whom he had all the forenamed but excelled in this that they being Legates or Apostles onely in regard of their generall iurisdiction he was Pastor of the Church This is the doctrine of those Fathers which you haue cited as you may see in their books and to saue you the labour of looking further I will shewe it in the very same places you alleage The Church saith S. Ierom is founded on Peeter S. Ieron adu Iouin ◠1. though in another place it be donne vpon them all and all receiue the keyes of heauen and the strenght of the Church be equallie establisshed vppon all These things were equallie donne before S. Peeter was made Pastor they were all equallie made Apostles and foundations and had equallie the keyes but afterwards of these Apostles thus equall one was created Pastor the rest remaining as they were who remained therefore vnequall to this one which was Peeter 10. 21. as you know by the Gospell of S. Iohn and in regard hereof S. Hierome doth adde immediately to the words but now cited yet saith he for this one of the twelue is chosen that a HEADE being constituted the occasion of schisme might be taken away Capite cōstituto So now they are vnequall because one is made heade S. Cyprian doth teach the same in the place you cite Although saith he after his resurrection he our Sauiour giues equall power saying as my father sent me so do send you S. Cyp. de vnit eccl take the holy Ghost c. where the power of remitting sinnes is equallie bestowed on all yet that he might declare vnitie he by his authoritie disposed the ORIGEN of the same Vnitie BEGINING FROM ONE * Quamuis Apostolis omnibus c. tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam Cathedram constituit vnitatis eiusdē originem ab vno incipientem sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia Cathedra vna monstretur S. Cypr. de vnit Eccl. Heere S. Cyprian doth shew what course Our blessed Sauiour tooke to keepe manifest vnitie in his Church and among the Apostles themselues He our Sauiour disposed being must wise an Origen Roote or cause of Vnitie which Vnitie he would haue in his Church and amongst all the Parts of it This Origē or Roote was not a multitude equally gouerning the Church but it was ONE that is Peeter whom our Sauiour made Pastor of his Church and vppō whō he built it as S. Cyp. noted a little before and therefore he saith he disposed the Origē of this Vnitie begining frō ONE So that wee haue in this very place the Primacie of S. Peeter in that he is the Roote and Origen of Vnitie in the whole Body wherein the Apostles were and allso the reason of the Institution of this Primacie or Origen in One. In another place he doth specifie it more particularly saying that The Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie is the CHAIRE that is the Pastorall Authoritie Nauigare audent ad Petri Cathedrā atque ecclesiam Principalē vnde vnitas sacerdotalis exorta est li. 1. ep 3. Vna Ecclesia à Christo Domino nostro super petram origine vnitates ratione fundata l. 1. ep 12. of Peeter And now I hope you wil beleeue it is his mind heering it out of his owne mouth Againe he saith that the Church is founded on a rocke in the Origē of Vnitie And that the Church is founded on Peeter which place S. Augustine doth allso alleage in his booke against the Donatists and in the same place which I must note heereby the way he atributeth expreslie the Primacie to Peeter Lastlie S. Cyprian saith the See of Rome is the Mother or Matrice and Roote of the Catholique Church Now if S. Peeter be the foundation or Rocke of the Catholique Church and the Origen of Ecclesiasticall Vnitie wee may conclude that he is as S. Ierom said the Heade S. Leo doth teach very well that their election was equall they had many things and among the rest Apostolicall dignitie equallie bestowed on them but afterwards one was particularly made Pastor of the Church the Roote of Priestlie Vnitie and Superior to the * Cyprianus in Ep ad Quintum ita loquitur nam nec Petrus inquit quem primum Dominus eleget super quem a dificauit Ecclesiam suam cum secum Paulus disceptaret c. S. Aug. l 2 con Donat. c. 1. Apostolum Petrum in quo Primatus Apostolorum tam excellenti gratia praeeminet c. Ibid. Hortatos esse vt Ecclesiae Catholicae Matricem Radicem agnoscerent tenerent S. Cyp. l. 4. Ep. 8. vide eundem l. 1. ep 3. l. 4. ep 9. rest Vni tamen datum est vt caeteris praeemineret S. Leo. ep 84. S. Leo serm 3. de Anniuers Ass die qui praeponatur which donne they were not in ALL respects equall His words are Among the most blessed Apostles in similitude of honour was a certaine DISTINCTION OF POWER and whereas the Election of all was equall to one was granted that he should be EMINENT ABOVE
you cannot speede there you endeuoure by the Nicene Councell to prooue the Bishop of Alexandria to be thus equall to the Roman and that the Romā Bisshop was there limited by the Councell as well as others I haue looked on that canon but see nothing for your purpose The Bisshop of Alexandria is not said there to be equall to the Roman Bishop neither is there any speach of limiting the Roman to the west as you pretend The words are Conc. Nicen can 6. Let the auncient custome be kept in Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bisshop of Alexandria haue power ouer all these because the Roman Bisshop hath such a custome Here the Popes custome is a reason whie the Bisshop of Alexandria is to haue power ouer Aegypt Libia and Pentapolis whereby is insinuated that the Bisshop of Alexandria therein depended on the Popes accustomed manner of gouermēt which argues a superioritie in the Pope not an equalitie in the other Your explicatiōs you must prooue to be text if you will haue me to beleeue thē Meane while neither in this Councell can you finde any thing for your cause vnles wee childishlie will take a glosse for the text and giue you equall authoritie with a generall Coūcell in assertiōs and decrees If the Romā Bisshop had there bene with his owne consent limited to the west for exercise of Patriarchal authoritie I would āsweare that he sustaining diuers offices in one and the same person might be more limited in regard of the one then of the other his Patriarchall power might be contained with in the west though his Pastorall Iurisdiction reached ouer the whole Church as man hath the power of seeing restrained vnto coloured Obiects but his power of vnderstanding reaches further to the whole latitude of being 11. Failing againe this way you stand still like a stocke and refuse to acknowledge any successor to sainct Peeter in his generall care and Pastorall office because you cannot see what necessitie there is of a Successor It seemes you are growne dull with disputing and would heare me rather speake I am contented A Successor in that office was ād is necessarie first because the Church at all tymes needs a generall Pastor ād visible Foundatiō as well as it did in the begining since therefore the Christiā Church is to endure till the worlds ēd Visible Pastor such as sainct Peeter was the Pastor ād visible Foūdatiō must likewise endure to confirme and to direct it secondlie Peeter in person could not feede ād rule all the sheepe of Christ from his tyme till the words end our Sauiour therefore prouiding the Church of a Pastor that might feede ād rule thē did in the persō of S. Peeter vnderstand his Successors in that office that so the sheepe might allwayes haue a Pastor to rule and feede them Otherwise the greatest part of the flocke that is all after S Peeters dayes till the worlds end should haue no generall Pastor here on earth though they wanted him no lesse yea more then did the Christians in sainct Peeters time Thirdlie the best forme of gouerment is Monarchicall something tempered with Aristocracie and the more Nations are added to the Church the more neede of a Monarch One is vndeuided in himselfe his iudgment and his principles are the same but a multitude is diuided ād the greater the multitude the more varietie of iudgmēt the greater the varietie of inclinatiōs dispositiōs affectiōs ād iudgment is the more neede there is of a cause of Vnitie to keepe them in One which would neuer be if euery mā freelie might chose his way and be a rule vnto himselfe Wee see this in Heretiques who hauing no visible cause of vnion in matter of faith doe runne sundry wayes Arius one Nestorius another and so to the very last Philosophers ould and moderne haue gonne seuerall waies and filld the Schooles with questions which will neuer be decided their iudgments being directed by no One. Seuerall Nations haue diuers lawes according to the different opinions of their Rulers and Lawe-makers the like would be in England if each Shire were independent of another and of a Monarch or common couerner In religion allso each Minister would haue his way Now the Church was to haue it it all Nations and in them is infinite varietie of iudgment 10. 10. id c. 21. wherefore our Sauiour to containe them all in one did ordaine a Monarch there shall be made one Fould and one Pastor Peeter feede my sheepe Act. 20. And tempering this Monarchie with Aristocracie he putte Bysshops allso to rule the Church Fourthlie it was necessarie that in the Church there should be one to attend generallie to the whole to call generall Councells to be President there to containe the multitude of Bishops in Vnitie and to haue a care principallie of the Churches generall affaires which care our Sauiour gaue to sainct Peeter as an Ordinarie Office in that he made him Pastor of his Fold the Christian Church and if it were necessarie then in the Apostles daies much more it is now Fiftly Pastors are to continue in the Church till the end of the world by the doctrine of S. Paul therefore the chiefe Pastor is likewise to continue which could not be in one person therefore in diuers If you say that our Sauiour himselfe is chiefe Pastor Ephes 4. I replie that amonge visible Pastors one is chiefe though subordinate vnto Christ and he is to remaine as well as the rest of the clergie and his existence is necessarie for the Gouerment of the Church Our Sauiour doth continuallie teach and baptize but by others and so doth he cōtaine the Church in Vnity and gouerne by subordinate meanes ordained and instituted for this purpose as God lights the world with the Sūne though if he had so pleased he could haue donne it otherwise 12. What you pretend about Election of a Successor is not hard the Church designes the Person and then he receaues power from our Sauiour in vertue of the first institution as man disposeth matter in the generation of a man and nature presents it so prepared vnto the Creator who by vertue of the first institution of mankinde inspires a sowle which the generant could not make It is true that the Churches action is hindered sometymes by Schisme or other meanes as mans generation is likewise hindred otherwhile but such hindrances are in tyme remoued and the Successor designed Neither is the Succession interrupted properlie in this tyme because this Election is a continuation of it So that all you haue said about the tyme of Schisme might haue bene spared because then the Church was busie in determining a successor though she were hindred sometymes more sometymes lesse according to the difficulties which did occurre 13. To conclude your opposition in this matter you take vpon you not to knowe who doth succede sainct Peeter But if you had lookt aboute you could not haue doubted First because
is the sense of the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and of the holie Ghost himselfe And in this sense of vnbloodie exteriour Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine the catholique church diffused thorough the whole world doth and euer did vniuersallie consent as I haue sufficientlie declared 76. Lastlie taking the Christian Church thus beleeuing and practizing and comparing it to the Prophecies I confound the Iewes too and make an in euitable demoÌ„stration that the Catholique Church in communion of all Nations thus offering a cleane Oblation to God EVERIE WHERE is the true Church of God and shake those people of with that of Malachie My will is not in you saith the Lord of hosts and guifte I wil not receaue at your hand Mal. 1. v. 10 11. for from the rising of the Sunne euen to the going downe my name is greate among the GENTILES and IN EVERIE PLACE there is Sacrificing and there is offered to my name a CLEANE OBLATION because my name is greate AMONGE THE GENTILES saith the Lord of Hosts THE TENTH CHAPTER Tradition 80. BEing not able with your sillie Arguments to driue vs from the Masse you growe desperate and runne foolishlie into the mouth of a Canon It was declared at Nice and since againe at Trent Conc. Nicen 2. act 7. Conc. Tr. sess 4. that Tradition is to be admitted without it you can knowe nothing in diuine matters because it must reach you the Scriptures wherein you pretend to grouÌ„d your selfe Yet because it doth withall offer more then you are willing to receaue you speake against it I haue spoken of it sufficientlie in the first and third bookes but since you repeate your argument I will resume also part of my discourse 8s The doctrine of Tradition is grounded in the Scripture 2. Thess 2. v. 15. Hold and obserue the Traditions which you haue learned either by word of mouth or by our letter heere are distinguished as you see plainlie two waies of deliuering the sacred truth and instruction one is by writing the other by word of mouth and it is to be kept and obserued if the Apostle may be iudge in the matter whether it be deliuered the one way or the other The same in another place allso he doth teach writing vnto Timothie thus 2 Tim. 2. v 2. The things which thou hast heard of me by manie wittnesses commend vnto faithfull men which shall be fitte to teach others allso This is the care the Apostle did take that what he had said might be conuaied vnto Posteritie from haÌ„d to hand commend vnto them saith he which shall be fitte he doth not say to write but to teach these thiÌ„gs which thou hast heard of me he doth not say which thou hast reade but heard and that openlie by manie wittnesses this doctrine taught by word of mouth is to be conserued by teaching others and this is the sacred depositum where of he had spokeÌ„ in the former chapter referring the good keeping thereof to the assistance of the holy Ghost 2. Tim. 1. v 14. keepe the good depositum by the holie Ghost which dwelleth in vs. Which is conformable to our Sauiours promise in S. Iohn He the holie Ghost shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you He saith not whatsoeuer shall be written but whatsoeuer I shall saie and God the Father in his promise to the Church Isa 59. v. 21 My words that I haue putte in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c. which words are more generall then if he had said thus the Scripture shall neuer be out of thy eies or thou shalt be euer reading that which I will cause to be writteÌ„ or it shall neuer out of the booke whereinsoeuer I shall write it he saith not so but my words shall not out of thy mouth and out of the mouth of thy seed and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede from hence forth for euer a cleere testimonie of the perpetuitie of sacred doctrine euer deliuered by word of mouth which is the thing wee call Tradition 82. Heerevppon Sainct Ireneus a man neere vnto the Apostles tyme â— Iren. l. 3. â—du Haeres â— 2.3.4 and well seene in their doctrine doth say that the Tradition in the Church receaued from the Apostles hath beene kept by the Succession of Bisshops that the Apostles laid vp in the Church as in a rich depositorie all truth and that therefore for resolution of controuersies recourse is to be made vnto the most auncient Churches So likewise Tertullian one allso of those who were neere vnto the Apostles tyme doth tell vs that in disputation with Heretiques wee are not to appeale vnto the Scripture Tertull. Praesc c. 19. because Heretiques will interprete as they list but that wee must inquire where the faith where the Church is from whom by whom when and to whom the discipline hath beene deliuered whereby Christians are made for where it shall appeale that the truth of discipline and Christian faith is there will be the truth of the Scriptures and of Expositions and of all Christian Traditions wee must vse Tradition S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Vide eundem in haeresi 55. 69. saith S. Epiphanius because all things cannot be had out of diuine scripture wherefore the holie Apostles haue deliuered some things by scriptures and some things by Tradition Many things saith Sainct Augustine are not found in the writings of the Apostles nor in the constitutions of later Councells which notwithstanding are beleeued to haue bene deliuered and commended by them the Apostles because by the vniuersall Church they are obserued S. August l. 2. Bapt c. Donat. c. 7. The doctrines which are obserued and taught in the Church wee haue partlie by the written word and partlie wee haue had them brought vnto vs by Apostolicall tradition S. Basil l. de sp s c. 27. Ib. c. 29. S. Chrys in 2. Thess â— saith S. Basil and in another place I esteeme it Apostolicall to perseuer in vnwritten traditions It is manifest saith S. Iohn Chrysostome that the Apostles deliuered not all by letters but many things without writing and these the vnwritten are as worthie to be beleeued as those other deliuered by writing Wherefore wee thinke the Churches tradition worthie of beleefe it is a tradition Vincent Lirin c. 1. 2. looke no more To conclude Vincentius Lirinensis in his booke of the Prophane Noueltie of Heresies doth tell that he learned of wise and holie men this way to perseuer in the true faith to fence it as he saith with the authoritie of the diuine lawe and with the tradition of the Catholique Church And obiecting presentlie to him selfe as if Ecclesiasticall authoritie were not necessarie because of the sufficiencie of the Scriptures he answeares that it is necessarie because all men vnderstand not the Scripture the same way because of the depth
you knew me by another and whether I had euer vsed that I could not then readily call to mind You will say peraduenture that a circumstance tied your tongue This may be and therefore bearing respect that way too I will discouer you no further but leaue you at your liberty though otherwise being out of the Kingdome I might be more open then I am You haue infinitely wronged your owne soule in offering to drawe men from the communion the Church and to leade them into heresies opposite directly to the word of God and accursed by the holy Ghost Trouble not your self any further to dresse vp ould shifts that haue beene worne out long agoe If you cannot prooue your cause positiuely as none euer yet could or will doe as long as God is truth hold your peace The more you maintaine heresie the deeper a lodging you bespeake your self in hell That you may escape that gulphe I shewe you heere S. Peeters Shippe fairely vnder saile towards eternitie and will reach you my hand if you wil come into it F. E. APPROBATIO EGo infrascriptus S. T. Facultatis Parisiensis Doctor testor me legisse tractatum hunc inscriptum A Disputation of the Church hoc est Disputatio de Ecclesia in libros quatuor partitum Authore F. E. in quo nihil inueni vel contra fidem Catholicam Romanam vel contra bonos more 's sed econtrà eandem fidem Catholicam dilucidè probatam confirmatam propugnatam horum temporum haereses solidè ac clarè confutatas In cuius rei testimonium praesentibus subscripsi 17. Maij An. 1629. ANT. CHAMPNEVS VIsâ hac attestatione Doctoris Sorbonici censeo idem opus vtiliter excudi posse Actum Duaci die 28. Maij. 1629. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theologiae Doctor regius ordinariusque Professor Duacensis Academiae Cancellarius in eadem Academia librorum Censor COurteous Reader I haue beene forced to vse a Printer who vnderstood not the language therefore wonder not if thou find heere errous in the print as diuision of syllables transposition of letters ill pointing c. In mending one fault sometimes he made another and I had not leisure to looke nicely to him If any doubt occurre in the reading be pleased to haue recourse to this place where the chiefest errours are amended The lesser committed by mistaking the letters or omitting or adding where the sense is not changed I will not speake of because he who cannot in reading supply such defects is not able by himself to make vse of the discourse Pag. 51. l. 17. cuppe pag. 52. l. 4. cuppe p. 90. l. 19. sight p. 96. l. 28. the kingdome p. 105. l. vlt. the temple p. 121. marg In Oper. S. Leonis p. 127. l. 16. and Eutichians after p. 146. l. 18. wee are p. 151. l. 13. then p. 155. 19. saue p. 185. l. 20. word p. 137. l. 15. neere p. 195. l. 13. sonnes p. 206. l. 6. abettors p. 237. l. 24. proceede p. 235. l. 7. is not p. 239. l. 25 in Israel p. 283. marg fact And. p. 298. l. 10. reprehend and his making others by his example to Iudaize was p. 300. l. 16. in our p. 340. l. 7. of nature p. 344. l. 6. tripping p. 347. marg vnitatis p. 359. l. 16. iudgment The. p. 367. l. 3. therefore p. 376. l. 14. it is a. p. 403. l. 8. of all l. 22. thy p. 405. marg l. 6. 4. p. 410. l. 15. omit verie p. 412. l. 27. and p. 413. l. 1. 2. it wrong charact p. 416. l. 12. is p. 424. l. 4. hold p. 430. l. 7. a liuing victime p. 433. marg omit Origen c. p. 435. l. 32. if you beleeue the. p. 441. l. 4. testimony of S. Cypr. vnperf The leaues at the toppe are ill numbred but I followe them as they are Some of those English authors which I haue cited I had not by me and therefore was forced to cite them out of others and out of latine so that I may haue missed to giue the same words but haue kept the sense p. 129. l. 28. an 680. Fathers 289. THE FIRST BOOKE OF THE WANT OF EVIDENCE for the continuall Visibilitie and Existence of the Protestant Religion and Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Declaring that vnto Catholikes demaūding euidēce of the Protestant succession and visible existence at all tymes in the world since the Apostles no satisfaction is giuen by recourse to the Waldenses and such as they were IT were good in the begining for the greater perspicuitie of my discourse to define the thing Protestant whereof I am to speake in this booke but Martine Luther and Iohn Caluin your Apostles and authors of your sect or religion as you call it so detested each others doctrine whē they were aliue that they cannot yet endure one definition being dead In regard of this I was once about to leaue out the Lutheran partie which in England is of lesse note and to sute our English with a definition for their turne but this was lothsome to the Puritan who by noe meanes can abide to be shut vp with the Parlamentarian within the same termes It seemed therfore not amisse neglecting all priuate differences to content my selfe with that wherein they assented and to make a generall notion of the Protestant in common This I thought was easie and might serue well inough But eieing the substance of Protestancie neerer to take measure of the thing wherby my definition might be fit I found noe constant being but vncertaintie in the essence of it This substance being as you saie pointes fundamentall and these more or lesse as euery Spirit will which Spirit is diuers not in the multitude onlie but in the same man many tymes The Moone was abroade in the could frosty nightes without cloethes and her mother pittying her spake to Mercurie as the tale is tould for a coate Mercurie taking measure when she was full a fortnight after or thereabouts brought the garment but found her changed and the coate a great deale to bigge Home he went againe to cut it and returning then it was to little and with all his skill he could neuer make it fit the Moone being some tymes thicke some tymes slender in the wast sometymes horned sometymes round Wheruppō he despaired of the worke and gaue it ouer A hard taske it were for a painter to represent Proteus in a picture but it is harder far to make a definition of your Church her essence or substance doth euer varie and is sometymes greater sometymes lesse neuer constantlie the same Yet because I am to speake of it and without some kind of notion this cannot well be I take here a Protestant for a man of the religion so you call it now currant in England and the Protestant Church I take for a companie of such men 3. Now that you cannot prooue by good euidence the CONTINVAL SVCCESSION or existence of this companie this religion this Church at all
tymes euer since the Apostles vntill this daie it is by longe experience verie manifest Euer since Luther and Caluin did begin to spread their doctrine it hath ben demaunded and your men haue endeuoured to make answeare hauing examined to this end and purpose all Bookes and monumentes that are extant and yet after infinite inquisition noe such euidence can be found Sometymes indeed you name some men of diuers Sectes and Religions in which kind Illyricus hath laboured hard but when he cometh to the thing expected that is to prooue they were of your religion there he leaueth you wheras it is this onlie which is expected from a Scholler for euery prating fellow can affirme what he list It were not hard for an vnknowne vpstart to lay claime to a very noble Petegree and greate Dominions but without euidence he will not be admitted and beleeued It is EVIDENCE that wee looke for show the Proofe of that you say 4. Being vrged againe and againe with this you name in fine the poore Beggars of Lions of Waldo their author called Waldenses wherin you doe meerely spend tyme and cozen simple people You know that your owne men reiected their coÌ„munioÌ„ and it hath ben tould you oft Protest Apol. they agreed not with you The matters of your differeÌ„ce haue ben named and are noted in your owne authors and the thing I demanded was your proofe See Prot. Apol. trac 2. c. 2. sec 3 R. Chalced de essent prot relig lib. 2. cap. 5. your euidence where is it where is your proofe that the Waldenses who liued before Luther for of them onelie I inquire were of the Religion now curraÌ„t among you and where is the Catalogue of their Continuall SuccessioÌ„ euer since the Apostl'es time and Euidence of their Communion with Nations and of the publike profession of that Religion in all the world These things I did expect this Catalogue I must see or the demaund of continuall Succession will rest euer vnsatisfied as it hath donne hetherto 5. Those men dissented from you in the point of a Errant in eo quòd non credunt solam fidem absque operibus iustificare Lutherus in Colloq Germ. c. de Suerm Coc. t. 1. l. 8. a. 4. De imputata iustitia nihil norunt Luth. ibid. Iustification Vide R. Chal. de essen rel prot c. 6. which is the ground and foundation of ProtestaÌ„cie aÌ„d held the reall b Confess Bohem. a. 13. and Caluin saith of their Confession Formulam Confessionis amplecti quae sine discrimine in vnum fasciculum damnationis omnes in voluit qui pracisè non fatâ—ntur panem esse prasentissimè Christi corpus hic recitamus eorum verba an fas sit Christiano homini videritis nos certè non putamus Epist 244. presence in our sense wherefore they were not yours Secondly they held sundry damnable opinions which you dare not approoue as that he which is in mortall sinne Illyric in Catal. test de VVald ex Syl. Rain IteÌ„que Anto. Guid. de Wal. dogm Aeneas Sylu. Hist Bohem. Luxemb in Paup de Ludg. 1. Tim. 4. 1. Cor. 7. falleth out of all dignitie therby whether it be Ecclesiasticall or Ciuile and therfore is not to be obayed that lay men and women may eonsecrate and preach that euerie good layman is a Priest that the Apostles were lay men that clergy men should haue no possessions They condemned Mariage a manifest Heresie IudgmeÌ„t to blood aÌ„d oathes Thirdly your owne men refused their communion as you know by c Cam. de Eccl. in Bohem. c. p. 273. Camerarius d Morg. tract de Eccl. p. 79. and 124. Morgernstern e Calu. Ep. 278. Caluin f Melanc in Consilijs par 2. pag. 152. Melancthon g Schlus Catal. tom 3. p. 188. And see Iewell Pantaleon and Osiander of the Albigenses cited prot Apol. Sec. cit Schlusselburg and others and charge them with maintayning obstinately grosse errours and Heresie Fourthly they had no Hierarchie hauing amongst them no Bishops Fox acts moÌ„ p. 628. Sim. VoyoÌ„ Cata. p. 132 Osiand Epitom and their owne tenet suprà nor Priests but al being lay people and therefore could not be the Church of God Fiftly Waldo a Marchant of Lions and an vnlerned lay man who liued an 1170. was the first and chiefe of that Sect so that they failed in the point of Antiquitie and Continuall Succession euer since the Apostles which is the thing whereunto you were to answere And will neuer doe till you putte downe some in euery age and bring vnquestionable Euidence for them which will neuer be 6. If notwithstanding the coÌ„trarie iudgmeÌ„t of your men you will ioyne to their Church and maintaine the Succession of your Church by them Heb. 5. v. 4. Rom. 10. v. 15. Confess Bohem. a. 13. Caluinianos VValdensiuÌ„ CoÌ„fessionem dâ—prauasse ostendit Conrad Schlussel Theol. Calu. li. 2. art 6. who could not ordaine you Priests and Bishops hauing themselues none nor teach being theÌ„selues vnsent you must prooue cleerele first that they had lawfull vocation and ordination Secondly that they held not the forsaid errours and Heresies or you must admitte that you hold them also Thirdly that they did agree with you in all other points particularly descending to each As in the manner of the reall presence the Bohemian Confession doth say they did not but that they vnderstood the words properly as wee doe Luth. supra cit R. Chalc. sup cit Haud scio an vsquam diu publicè suam fidem sint prosessi c. praeterquam in Bohemia in quadam valle in radicibus AlpiuÌ„ Illyr de VValdens suprà Epiphan haeres 61. August haeresi 40. that they held iustification by faith as you Luther saith they knew it not yet this is the sowle and foundation of Protestancie in the iudgment and by the confession of your owne men And so you must on to the rest where you will find many of your owne who will coÌ„tradict you to your face Fourthly you must bring proofe that those men were in the world before Waldo and that of them there was a continuall succession euer since the daies of the Apostles I speake not of those Heretikes called Apostolici wherof S. Epiphanius and S. Augustine speake though they coÌ„demned also mariage and hauing of possessions and therefore held in part the forenamed heresies that is two of them but I speake of the VValdenses I demaund good proofe and euidence that such men were existent in the world euer since Christ ascended And I will not accompt it satisfaction if you tell me they saie so for I beleeue neither them nor you but demaund proofe Bring foorth your monumentes and read vs the names of their Bishops or some of them at least for there were such among them if theires were the Church Act. 20 2â— Ephes 4.11.13 Eph. 4.12 since Gods Church is gouerned by Bishopes there were
de assūp sua ad pōtif Onelie Peeter is chosen out of all the world who is put both ouer the vocation of all Nations and ouer all the Apostles and ouer all the Fathers of the Church that allthough there be many Priests and many Pastors amōge the people of God yet Peeter properlie rule or gouerne them All whom Christ principallie doth allso gouerne TRADITION S. Chrys in 2. Thess hom 4. It is manifest that the Apostles deliuered not all things by their Epistles but many things without writing and both the one and the other deserue the same beleefe and therefore let vs esteeme the traditions of the Church to be worthie of faith and credit S. Epiphan Haeres 61. Wee must vse Traditions for the Scripture containeth not all things and therefore the Apostles deliuered certaine things by writing certaine by Tradition REALLE PRESENCE S. Cyrill Hierosol Catech. myst 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 TRANSVBSTANTIATION Serm. de coena Domini apud Cypr. S. Greg. Nyss orat Catech. c. 37. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With all assurance let vs receaue the body and bloode of Christ for in the forme of breade the body is giuen to thee and in the forme of wine the bloode c. knowing and beleeuing most assuredlie that that which appeareth breade is Not Breade though it seeme so to the tast but it is the bodie of Christ and that which appeareth wine is Not wine as the tast doth iudge it to be but the Bloode of Christ The breade which our lord gaue vnto his disciples being changed not in Shape but in Nature by the omnipotencie of the Word is made flesh Christ thorough the dispensation of his grace entreth by his flesh into all the faithfull and mingleth himselfe with their bodies which haue their substance from breade and wine to the end that man being vnited vnto that which is immortall may attaine to be made partaker of incorruption and these things he bestoweth transelementing the Nature of the things that are seene into it SACRIFICE S. Cyrill Alexand. in declar anathem 11. Conc. Ephes Iren. l. 4. c. 32. Wee celebrate in the Church the holie quickning and Vnbloodie Sacrifice beleeuing not that that which is shewed is the bodie of some common man like vs and his bloode but wee receaue it rather as the life giuing words owne flesh and bloode for common flesh cannot giue life Christ tooke bread and gaue thankes saying this is my bodie and the chalice likwise c he confessed to be his blood and taught the new Oblation of the new testament which the Church receauing from the Apostles doth offer to God in All the world In the books of the Machabees wee reade that Sacrifice was offered for the deade PRAYER FOR THE DEADE S. Aug. l. de cura pro mort c. 1. but were it no where reade in old Scripture the Authoritie of the whole Church which in this custome is well knowne is not small where in the prayers of the Priest which are powered out to our lord God at his Alter the commendation allso of the deade hath a place VVORSHIP OF SAINCTES Iustin Mart. Apol. 2. ad Ant. Wee doe worship and adore God the father and his Sonne who came and taught vs these things and the companie of his followers and the like good Angells and the propheticke Spirit and wee doe worship them both by word and deedes and in truth and wee teach or deliuer this abundantlie to all those which will learne according as wee haue bene taught and instructed PRAYER TO SAINCTS S. Ambros l. de Viduis The Angells are to be beseeched which are giuen to vs for our guard martyrs are to be beseeched whose patronage wee seeme to challenge by the pledge of their bodies They can aske for our sinnes who with their bloode haue washed away their owne if they had any They are Gods martyrs our presidents beholders of our liues and actions let vs not be ashamed to make them intercessors of our infirmitie CROSSING S. Aug. tract 118 in Ioan. What is that signe of Christ which all know but the Crosse of Christ which signe vnles it be applied either to the foreheads of the faithfull or to the water whereby they are regenerated or to the oyle wherewith they are confirmed or to the Sacrifice wherwith they are nourisshed nothing of this is well donne This will serue my turne and now I argue thus If our doctrine be found in the writings of Antiquitie and there approoued it is vnpossible for any man to make it euident that Antiquitie is against vs and for you but our doctrine is there found and approued as the authors before named declare abundantlie therefore c. And in Confirmation hereof I take only that which they alleage out of those writings which are by your selues acknowledged for ancient and currant because I neede not here dispute of the authoritie of such as your men and some of ours do except against Of this sense of Antiquitie I haue here allso giuen you a tast whereby a iudgmēt not distempered will perceaue immediatelie that you cannot make it euident that they were on your side And in naming them for your predecessors you giue no satisfaction to the demaūd which inquires for vndeniable and cleere euidence of a successiō of such men as in Religion you are The third book shall teach you whose interpretatiō must be stood to or of Protestants I knowe that you do offer to delude all the places which wee bringe but men of iudgment may see by your answeares that you dare not stand to the proper sense of the Fathers words an experience whereof they may see presentlie if they will but obiect vnto you these fewe places here cited ād obserue what poore answeares you make and how farre they are from the plaine ād Grāmaticall sense of the words or sentences Now further if your owne mē would open their mouthes and confesse plainlie what they beleeue in their consciences touching the doctrine of Antiquitie your assertiō or challenge would euidentlie yet appeare more vnreasonable and voyde of title muche lesse would it deserue to be supposed for certaine on your side that in those dayes all were yours Wee will demaund of two or three of thē if you please and the rather because their confession shall make roome for the next argument and bringe it in 23. Speake Fulck and begin I confesse that Ambrose Ful. reio to Brist p. 36. Kem. exam Con. Trid. par 3. p. 200. Hierome Augustine held inuocation of Saincts Kemnitius Most of the Fathers as Nazianzen Nyssen Basil Theodoret Ambrose Hierome Augustine did not dispute but auouch the soules of martyrs and Saincts to heare the petitions of those who prayed vnto thē they went often to the monuments of martyrs and inuocated Martyrs by name Whit. Def. p. 473. whitgift All the Bysshops ād learned writers of the Greeke Church ād Latines allso for
England for example but in the world it shall allwayes bee ◠2. c. 1. for so much is euident by the Scripture Neither doth it followe God permittes some tymes one man to fall into Apostasie some tymes another therfore he will at once permitte all he permittes diuers to die before you ād for ought you knowe he may permitte any one man whom soeuer you can name or thinke of yea any one in all the world yet hence it is not cōsequēte that it stands with his generall prouidence to permitt euery one to die before you that so you may be last the onelie man a liue I answeare therfore that As by vertue of Gods generall prouidence in as much as he is author of nature there be still in the world men though some at all tymes dropp away so by vertue of Gods prouidence as he is author of the supernaturall order among men there be euer Catholiques in the world and so will be still as long as the world stands though some men yea some Nations and some perticular Churches do fall of 124 The next which is allso the last I am to speake of here lookes bigge ō all ād thinkes to make an ēd of our cause with one blowe The scope of it is to proue that all may erre and therfore that wee are not to be heard though neuer so many Councells and auncient fathers and worlds of people doe stand for vs and comes on in this manner The whol◠Church militant consisting of mē Wh◠are lyers may erre alltogethe◠as euery part thero◠Fulk ans◠to Count Cat. p. 89. All Christians that are or euer were in the world are men therfore it might happen that all haue erred though they were assēbled together neuer so orderlie because euery man is a lier If this argumēt did prooue any thing it would prooue that all Councells all Apostles all Euangelists all prophets hether to may for any thing you know haue bene in errour for all these were men and euery man is a lier This is the vp shott of your disputation this is the hauen you haue all this while bene sailing vnto this though first but a shifte wherunto you were driuen by the strength of authoritie brought against you is now your doctrine and a Conclusion in your bookes Our answeare is easie that man of himselfe might erre but by diuine assistance might be so guided that he erred not and no man can denie this vnles he denie that God is omnipotent or omniscious which if he doe the light of nature will condemne him Thus generall Councells are assisted thus were the Euangelists allso and thus the Prophetts though nor after the same manner all And the promise of the Assistance did more concerne the Pastors then the people Oecumenicall Councells then each Bisshop single the whole colledge of the Apostles more then one Though each Apostle being to teach the whole Church in the nature of an Apostle had this assistance too and our Sauiour praying for the sanctification of his elected in truth or for their perseuerance included the meanes allso of this perseuerāce of his elect in the truth which is the perpetuitie of his assistance vnto those in whome is the teaching authoritie respectiuelie to the whole in which those elected are though to pastors in particular vnknowne 125. But to looke now a little vppon you who are so resolute in your ignorance as to thinke that all may haue mystaken the truth which you haue foūd and haue bene forsakē by the Spiritte who singularlie fauours you I demaund of you the Spirittes darling and worlds fresh Oracle First how one may knowe that you are exempted frō the world of men which may erre alltogether or what other species or kind you and your witte belonge vnto that men should leaue the whole world though consenting and take your authoritie against them all the same Question would I aske of your fellowe Rainolds ād of Whittaker were they liuing but hauing vndertaken their cause the resolution belongs to you in their absēce Secondlie I desire a sight of your particular letters patents from Iesus Christ wherein the teaching Spiritte is thus singularlie bequeathed and addicted vnto you or to either of the forenamed in particular or Iohn white if you had rather togeather with a clause that though he breake his promise made vnto the Church and hath not as he said he would sente the allteaching Spiritte to the Apostles to their Successors or to the Church Catholique yet that that other promise no where extant for ought wee knowe made particularlie vnto you his deerest he will not breake and how you are sure he will stand to this clause Thirdlie I demaūd why the Catholiques of Englād be there commaunded and vrged allso to conforme their conscience to the doctrine of your Church and to rest in her iudgment and in the parlamentarie decrees for points of Religion though worlds of men as learned euery waie I speake least as your selues doe and haue maintained the contrarie to their dying daie as conformable to the Scripture to reasō ād to the practise of their forefathers time out of mind I demaund I saie why you proceede with thē in this manner before you giue euidēce that you are not in errour since you likewise are mē and all mē may erre as you tell vs. Euidence I say greater thē any these haue on their side I demaund further of your wisdome how you doe know and are certaine that the Euāgelists Apostles ād Prophetts did write those bookes which you take for diuine Scripture and how you doe know your selfe ād cā prooue to me there is no errour or mistaking in the matter if all mē may haue erred And I demaund further how you doe knowe that he which did write the first Gospell suppose he were S. Matthewe did not erre since he was a man and all men you saie may erre I demaund Fiftlie howe men shall come to be sure of the sense of a peece of Scripture and to haue the controuersies in religion determined Must he come to you why rather then to the Church which was before you were borne and had the promise of the Spiritte If to the Spiritte why rather to that in you them to that in the Church If to others why must wee goe to old Heretiques to Iewes to Pagans to Athiests rather then to the Church why should any knowe better then she or abounde more with the Spiritte then she doth I demaund next what an Heretique is and why he which opposeth himselfe in matters of faith to generall Councells to the Spiritte of the Catholique Church and to Gods word proposed by this Church and expounded by this Spiritt is not one And Seuenthlie I demaund whether this sinne be not against the holie Ghost and whether he who dieth in it shall be saued and admitted into the Church triumphant who thus opposed the militant and died a vowed enemy to her and to her
doctrine and her Spiritte 126. Awake man for shame awake and looke aboute consider what you doe here is a faire waie before you and you like a bedlome runne out of it ouer shoes ouer bootes ouer head and eares imagining notwithstanding that you walke aboue heauen and that euerie steppe is on a starre The Church the Councells the Fathers Apostles Euangelists all are in errour all vnder your feete whilst your chariot is rowld vniformelie aboue the Sunne and heauen takes newe lawes from your allmightie witte I will ascend into heauen Isay 14. v. 13.14 aboue the starres of God I will exalt my throne I will sit in the mount of the Testament in the sides of the North. I will ascend aboue the height of the clowdes I will be like the highest So he that wēt before you if you prick on apace you will ouertake him for he is yet at his Inne ād there to stay an eternall night That past you may iogge on together I loue your person I wish your saluatiō but hate your heresie and make no greate account of that which you most adore your learnīg In the Schoole of errour be manie good witts There the Manichees and Ariās ād Caluinists haue their order if there be any order where no man will be second Aristotles Logicke and Tullies Rhetoricke could not make of superstition true Religion I am not in loue with Hell though in it be greate Schollers the Foulest there was once the Fairest amōge creatures for endowments or nature and strength of vnderstanding I knowe that such as did applaud his cōceipt were partners in his fall I knowe too that all the knowledge of all Pagans of all Heretiques of all aduersaries put together doth not equall the knowledge of the Church It is the Schoole of Iesus Christ who taught a thing worthie of eternall admiration a poore fisherman and on the suddaine too to speake all tongues I speake it to the confusion of such aduersaries of our Sauiour as glory in their skill in others language and do repeate againe to the Rhetoricians he suddainlie made the same man so good an Oratour that he conuerted vnto his Masters doctrine in the face of his aduersaries Act. 2 three thousand with one Sermon he so instructed his disciples in deuinitie that they conuinced Greece the worlds Academie for wit and learning persuaded Rome in the flourishing tyme of her power though she imploied all her force to frustrate their proceeding and in fine to relate many wonders in a word conuerted all the world to beleeue a man God to beleeue a most obscure and witt-transcending Creede In this Schoole wee doe learne here wee are assured of the truth The manifestation of the Spirit is giuen here To one the word of wisdome 1. Cor. 12. v. 8.9.10 To another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit To another faith in the same Spirit To another the grace of doing cures in one Spirit To another the working of miracles To another prophecie To another discerning of Spiritts To another kinds of tongues To another interpretations of languages Can you giue these things can you teach this Schoole in this sort as the Spirit doth or if you cannot as without infinite blasphemie you may not presume you can why do you endeuour to thrust out the holie Ghost and intrude your selfe into the place whie do you thus oppose the diuine ordinance and openlie wronge the sonne of God Auant Heretiques Iude v. 2. clouds without water borne about with winde raging waues of the Sea foming out your owne confusions enemies to the Church to the Scripture and to God auant Wee need not your instruction wee haue better Masters Without you the Church was planted the world conuerted the truth maintained without you the Schooles are full of Schollers the world of Martyrs heauen of Saincts without you the Church hath stoode and doth stand and so will do still The third Conclusion All Controuersies in matters of Religion are to be decided by the Spirit in the Church THE FOVRTH BOOKE WHEREIN SOME PARTIticular Controuersies are briefly discussed THE FIRST CHAPTER Of the Primacie 1. YOVR generall arguments being dispatched in the former booke I shall finde little danger or difficultie in the encounter of the rest of the disordered route and may iustlie in your owne principles contemne them all as I said before in the like occasion and must repeate it oft For whence is their strength from witte or from authoritie If from witt you must not thinke amisse of me if I preferre the witt and iudgment of many worlds of learned mē before yours which hath declared it selfe vnreasonable hetherto especiallie since all men be lyars to turne the point of your owne weapon vppon your selfe and you no God nor Angell but a man If your argumēts haue their streingth from authoritie either this authoritie is of men and this you haue refused as vncertaine because all mē are lyars and you haue laboured not onelie to disgrace the Church of later tymes and the Fathers in their age but allso to take the Apostles triping and therefore their authoritie moues not you Or this authoritie is of God in holie Scripture where he deliuers according to your distinction two sorts of points the one is of fundamentall points and in these you confesse that the Church neither doth nor can erre and therfore the ensuing controuersie is not about them as for example the Incarnation the passion and the rest which you call fundamentall The other sort of points or textes in the Bible are as you call them not-fundamentall and these you do not hold for certaine which howsoeuer you dissemble the matter is cleere for in your principles there are no meanes from God or man to knowe certainlie that they are indeede parts of Gods word or to knowe which is their true meaning Not the witte of man alone for that may erre especiallie in such an obscure point as whether this text this verse be Gods word and not the word of a man Not the Spirit for that doth assist onelie to fundamentalls you saie and these you say are not of them you must answer this heere before you goe further and knowe that of the certainty of consequences it is the same Moreouer since diuine assistance to the vnderstanding of the Scripture depends vppon Gods promise and since this promise is made vnto the Church to the Apostles and their successors you are first to prooue that you are the Church before any man is to beleeue you haue the assistance ād interprete right for arguments out of Scripture prooue nothing if they misse the sense of God and be grounded in a wronge sense For these and the like reasons I might haue forborne to make further answeare to your exceptions Notwithstanding to giue you content I will descende vnto the particular consideration of the chiefest 2. First therefore to make your waie into the Church there to spoile and aulter