vndertake the like task in your own defence and maintaine the affirmatiue in the like question which we now propound vnto you heere in writing Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists as it is comprised in the Councell of Trent was in all ages visible especially in the first 600 yeeres And whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors Heere D. Featly reading this question through a mistake in stead of out of good Authors read out of Gods Word Whereunto M. Fisher replied No I will prooue it out of good Authors Then said one that sate at the Table By no meanes can M. Fisher endure to demonstrate his Church out of Gods Word D. Featly God is a good Author M. Fisher but it is true I did mistake What say you to the condition Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages out of good Authors M. Fisher. I will so you prooue the Visibility of your Church Heere an order was set downe that D. Featly should for an houre and a halfe oppose M. Fisher in this question and afterwards M. Fisher for the last houre and halfe should oppose D. White in the other question for the Visibility of the Romane Church M. Sweet Before you proceed to dispute I desire these conditions may bee assented vnto on both sides 1. That all bitter speeches be forborne 2. That none speake but disputants Which conditions were well approoued by the whole company D. Featly I desire a third to bee added thereunto viz. that both the Opponent and Respondent be tyed to Logick Forme M. Fisher. I hold not that condition fit because the company vnderstands not Logick Forme D. Featly There are of the company that vnderstand Logick as well as you or I and the rest are men of vnderstanding and reason therefore I am resolued to keepe Logick Forme and expect from you direct answers M. Fisher. You your selfe confesse that this question is not to be handled syllogistically D. Featly I said indeed that it required rather a large historicall volume then a briefe syllogisticall Dispute the more you too blame to propound such a question and my taske the harder yet beeing propounded as a question I will keep my self to Logicke Forme But before I propound my argument I craue leaue in fewe words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse wherewith you draw and delude many of the ignorant and vnlearned You beare them in hand that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant before Luther and that all the world before his time beleeued as you doe That your Church hath not bin onely visible in all Ages and all times but eminently conspicuous and illustrious which is such a notorious vntruth that I heer offer before all this company to yeeld you the better and acknowledge my self ouercome if you can produce out of good Authours I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any City Parish or Hamlet within 500. yeeres next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to bee named maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall or these poynts of Popery in speciall to wit 1. That there is a treasury of Saints merits and superaboundant satisfactions at the Popes disposing 2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs institutions to receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kindes 3. That the publicke seruice of God in the Church ought or may bee celebrated in an vnknowne Tongue 4. That priuate Masses wherein the Priest sayth Edite et bibite ex hoc omnes Eate and drinke yee all of this and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely are according to Christs institution 5. That the Popes pardons are requisite or vsefull to release soules out of Purgatory 6. That the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister M. Sweet These are scholasticall points not fundamentall D. White Those things which are defined in your Councell of Trent are to you matters fundamentall Whatsoeuer article denied makes a man an hereticke is fundamentall But the deniall of any of these makes a man an hereticke Therefore to you euery one of these articles is fundamentall To which argument nothing being answered D. Featly proceeded 7. That extreme vnction is a Sacrament properly so called 8. That wee may worship God by an Image 9. That the sacred Hoast ought to bee eleuated or carried in solemne procession 10. That Infidels and impious persons yea Rats and Mice may eate the body of Christ. 11. That all ecclesiasticall power dependeth of the Pope 12. That hee cannot erre in matter of faith 13. That hee hath power to canonize Saints 14. To institute religious orders 15. To depose Kings c. which latter points and the like I leaue to D. White to mayntaine against you when according to your promise you doe vndertake to name visible and legible Romanists in all ages M. Fisher. After you haue proued your Church visible in all ages and named the professours thereof I will satisfy you in your particulars D. Featly In the meane-while name but one Father but one Writer of note who held the particulars aboue-named for 500. yeeres after Christ. To which instant demand of D. Featly nothing was answered Sr. Humfrey Lynde M. Sweet proue mee but this one point out of Saint Augustine namely Transubstantiation or satisfy such arguments as I shall bring you out of Saint Augustine to the contrary and I will promise you to goe to Masse To which M. Sweet made no other answer then this That is not now to the question M. Fisher. I expect your argument Doctor Featly D. Featly There are two meanes only to proue any thing by necessary inference to wit a Syllogisme and an Induction other formes of argument haue no force but as they are reducible to these I proue the visibility of our Church by both and first by a Syllogisme That Church whose faith is eternall and perpetuall was euer visible in the professours thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church was euer visible in the Professours thereof M. Fisher. You conclude not the question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your question first Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can bee shewed I haue concluded in my Syllogisme the first Quaere M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the question it is but one question D. White Where there are two propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two questions But heer are two propositions with two distinct vtrums to wit whether the Protestant Church c. and whether the names c. Therefore there are two Quaeres or parts in the question M. Fisher. Conclude any thing
Errors in doctrine and abuses in practice for the most part steale in secretly and by degrees sensim sine sensu and are therefore seldome discerned and openly opposed before they get head and strength This obseruation I owe to Vincentius Lyranensis Lâ—tenter superinducunt errores quos nec cito deprehendere valeas nec facilè damnare they bring in errors secretly which a man cannot soone finde out nor easily condemne And Vincentius seemeth to haue borrowed it of Tertullian Nihil magis curant quâ—m vt occultent quod praedicant sitamen praedicant quod occultant they seeke nothing more then to hide that which they preach if yet they may bee said to preach that they hide And againe Obscondit se Serpens quantum potest totamque prudentiam in laqueorum ambagibus torquet alte habitat in 〈◊〉 detruditur per aâ—fractus seriem suam 〈…〉 procedit nec semel totus 〈◊〉 bestia The Serpent hides himselfe as much as hee can and sheweth his chiefe skill in wreathing himselfe into foulds hee thrusts himselfe into darke and blind holes c. This note Tertullian took from Saint Peter There shall bee false teachers among you who shall priuily bring in damnable heresies And Saint Peter himselfe might gather it from our Sauiours words Whil'st men slept the enemy came and soâ—ed tares And therefore Bellarmine and Caâ—piâ—n and M. Fisher doe but dreame when they conceiue that the enemy hath not sowne the tares of heresies and superstitions in the Church of Rome because as they suppose that we cannot shew the precise time when all these tares were sowne For our Sauiour makes answer to this question Vnde zizania Whence were these 〈◊〉 for vs They were sowne whilst men slept Changes and alterations are of two sorts some are violent and sudden and with a great noise others are made by degrees and come in piece-meale and without any sound at all In the former kinde it is no matter of difficulty out of stories to shew the precise time when such great and sudden alterations befell in Church or CoÌ„mon-wealth but in the latter kinde it is very difficult and for the most part impossible When a great tree beeing torne by a tempest ingentem traxit 〈◊〉 ruinam euery man obserueth it but who can tell when a great and thick timber-tree beginneth first to rotte The Historians precisely set down the yeer and day wherein the Temple of Diana was burned by Herasastratus and Saint Paul's Steeple in London by lightning but who can out of any Story or otherwise designe the day or yeere when Paul's Church beganne to decay yet no man that now seeth it maketh question but that it is very much ruined the beame out of the timber and stone out of the wall cry for speedy reparations By the Iesuites argument an aged decrepid man all gray-headed might forsweare and out-face his Age because no man nor perhaps himselfe obserued when hee beganne to grow old first or had his first gray haire on his head or beard Our Sauiour very fitly compares heresies to tares which wee see when they are growne though wee see them not in their first growth or as they grow No man can perceiue the index in a Watch or finger in a Diall to wagge or stirre yet hee that going abroad when it points to one a clock and returning home findeth it points to six or twelue a clock knoweth infallibly that it hath mooued and that no small space In like maner though wee cannot in all particular points of difference betweene vs and the Church of Rome designe the moment of time when corruptions and innouations stole in yet finding the doctrine and manners of the Church at one point as it were in the Primitiue times and in latter Ages at a farre distant point nay quite opposite wee know that the finger hath mooued that is that great changes and alterations and innouations haue beene Shall wee deny that there is idolatry in the world because wee know not who was the first Idolater nor precisely when men first fell from true Religion Bellarmine and some others fetch it from some of Noah's posterity after the flood but Barradus endeuoreth to prooue that the tares of idolatry were sowne in the world before the flood yet it appeares on no record who was the first Idolater in the world Some of Noah's posterity degenerated from the true worship seruice of God to Gentilism and superstition yet who can demonstrate the time when or the place where they first began to adulterate the true seruice of God with infinite abuses and abominations How did the Scribes and Pharises at the comming of Christ corrupt the doctrine of the Law with false glosses and abrogate it with their owne traditions Yet no man can shew the originall or first deuiser of all their false glosses and vaine traditions To come neerer to our aduersaries The Fathers in the Councell of Trent acknowledge that many corruptions abuses haue crept into the Masse it self eyther by the fault of times or negligence and wickednesse of men Cùm multaiam siue temporum vitio siue hominum incuria et improbitatâ— irrepsisse videantur quae à tanti Sacrificij dignitate abhorreant c. Sith many things through the fault of times or the negligence and wickednesse of men haue seemed to haue crept in to the Masse which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a Sacrifice wee appoint c. Yet when these abuses crept in and by whose fault neither doe they there neither can any Papist punctually demonstrate The Physicians iudge of their patients two manner of waies eyther à decubitu that is from the time of their lying downe and yeelding themselues to their bed or ab actionibus lasis that is from the time that their appetites and disgestion and other faculties sensibly faile in dooing their functions In like manner are we to iudge of the diseases of the Church some wee may à decubitu from her apparant declining in iudgement to error but other which we cannot so iudge certainely of yet wee may most infallibly by the other meanes ab actionibus lasis from her sensible failings in her vitall faculties and functions viz. Preaching of the Word Administration of the Sacraments and exercise of Ecclesiasticall discipline To cloze vp this note Though many learned Protestant Diuines haue wrote to good purpose touching the first leake in Peters ship yet none seemeth to mee to hit the point more fully then our excellently learned Rainolds Primò ait Gentilitios deinde Iudaicos ritus opiniones concupiscentias ingruisse ea quasi seminaâ— exemplorum et placitorum fuisse haec primùm per exigâ—a non internosci inter dum conspici et coerceri pâ—st sensim augescere magis magisque tum confirmari et grassari latiùs donec ad extremum Religionis facies tota quasi cancro exaesae immutata Ecclesia Romana ex sancta
visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record therefore they were neuer vpon Record These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot and by his silence granteth it Thirdly the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny were visible men yet cannot their proper names be shewed proued out of good Authors for good Authors report they had no proper names at all With this rather tentatiue then serious instance M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt but Master Boulton though he confessed in effect that they were gon at the common Law yet he sought to relieue them by the Chanâ—â—â—â— by saying that Though those people had no proper names yet they had some descriptions and might bee knowne by some periphrasis But it may bee replied 1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name 2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors any particular description of these men whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another but onely a generall description that They are a people in Africa neere the hill Atlas which haue no proper names and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages in a generall description of certaine men who opposed certaine errors against and besides the Doctrine of Scripture and especially the errors of the Church of Rome Fourthly the Author and Head of the Heretikes called Acephali was a visible man but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors for those Hereticks were therefore called Acephali or headless because the certain Author and Head of that Heresie could neuer bee knowne And heer if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne a man might truly say that both himselfe and his asâ—istant Master Sweet and their good friend at a dead 〈◊〉 Master Boulton were all nonplussed with this argument for they replied nothing to it Fiftly the falshood of Master Fishers supposall the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vndertooke in the conference may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances as First there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knee to Baal yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors Secondly there were who opposed corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises and their false doctrine or at least assented not vnto it in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnation yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Thirdly the first brocher of the errors touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost and Authors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches were visible men yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Fourthly they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kinde onely were visible men yet the names of them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors Fiftly there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors Sixtly Master Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors from Noah according to the flesh were visible men yet all their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors And here the Protestants might iustly call for names as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault First there were a people of Africa neuer christned by any proper names Names Names where are their Names Secondly there was an Author of the Heresie of the Acephali Names Names where is his Name Thirdly there were 7000. in Elias time who neuer bowed their knees to Baal Names Names where are their Names Fourthly there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation Names Names where are their Names Fiftly there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost Names Names where are their Names Sixtly there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kind onely Names Names where are their Names Seuenthly there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England and Ireland and other Countries as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres Names Names where are their Names Eightthly M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors descended from Noah were visible men Names Names where are their Names The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher to name any City Town Village or Hamlet where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers more next after Christ. And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net for in propounding the Question of the Visibility of the Church in all Ages he spred a strong Net as hee thought to catch D. White and D. Featly in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther but hee was caught in his owne Net by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers immediately after Christ. And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vpon him wherewith hee intended to batter down the walls of our Sion The true Church must haue been visible in all Ages before Luther yea so visible as M. Fisher pretendeth that The Names of the Professors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors The Romish Church hath not been so visible Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne The Assumption is thus prooued No Church holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Treâ—t in generall or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particular can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ. But the Romish Church holdeth the doctrine of the Councell of Trent in generall and those fifteen Articles in speciall Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to haue been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ. And first that no Church within the space aboue-named can bee prooued to haue held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's silence and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish Campiâ—â— in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth that 〈…〉 prooue the Romish faith but we could not hear so much as any vâ—ces or 〈◊〉 from M. Fisher to testifie much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages Pliâ—â—â— writes of the â—â—custa or Lobster that he is so afraid of the 〈◊〉 that it is death for him to see him so wee may truely say that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fifteen Articles mentioned in the Conference
little to the purpose Secondly a Romified Lady being present and being troubled with those dull and weake answers did then intreat me to interpose and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction And lastly I adde that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house 8. weekes before where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it and now I conceiued he was wel armed for a second encounter Againe where it is related in the Conference that I told M. Buggs that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there A very weake and insufficient answer as is shewed hereafter Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie and forgot a farther Reply or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it Neither by Master Fishers leaue was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me when vpon his first meeting falling into conference about the Reall presence which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words Hot est corpus meuÌ„ I answerd that Scotus Cameracensis and Bellarmine were of opinion that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation To which obiection hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by What care I for Bellarmine or Scotus or Cameracensis Againe by Master Sweets leaue it was not so weake and insufficient an answer as when I propounded to him foure questions viz. The worship of Images Praier in an vnknowne tongue Communion in one kinde and Transubstantiation with this assurance in the presence of Recusants that if he could proue either all or but any one of those held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent I would then subscribe to Popery All his answer was that hee brought a booke that would proue them all So for that time I was content hee should bee saued by his booke But Doctor Featly in whose hands hee is now will not let him escape so easily but calling him into the inner barre will finde that non legit vt Clericus At that time Master Sweet farther added that hee for his part had other businesse and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions If his superior had heard him certainly hee would haue enioyned him penance for neglecting so faiâ—e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee hee knowes there ought to bee no businesse pretended where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte Lastly concerning the issue of the Conference I auow and protest that old Master Bugs came then to me and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure and told mee that he well perceiued it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church that hee well perceiued they could say but little for it and withall hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time that he professed vnto mee that if his sonne would not leaue his religion and the priests company he would leaue him c. HVMFREY LYNDE The Protestant Relation Paragraph the first touching the entry into the Conference DOctor White and D. Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying awhile after had notice giuen them that M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuites were in the next room ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. First Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible and especially in the Ages going before Luther and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point Master Fisher his Answer First any man reading this parcel would be induced to think that D. White D. Featly had neuer had notice before for what end they were inuited to dinner or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites but that they were on the sudden summâ—ned to this Conference without any preparation or knowledge of the Question which not to be so is euidently conuinced partly by that which is already said partly by that which I am after to say Secondly this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher vnder his owne hand had set downe the words of the Question distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question nor did not meane to make any more then 〈◊〉 onely entire Question as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired Thirdly he seemeth willing to perswade that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers which is not true Doctor Featly his Reply The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing offendere in limine to stumble as a man is going out a-doores in lifting his legge ouer the threshold You do so M. Fisher you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore and which is farre worse you stumble at three strawes The first is that forsooth any man reading this parcell would beleeue that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference And what if he should beleeue so What doth this aduaÌ„tage our cause or preiudice yours It matters not much how wee came to this encounter but how we came off Yet are there no words in the Relation which imply any such thing that wee came sudden or vnprouided nay whosoeuer reades the first Chapter touching the occasion of the Conference cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before and came prouided The truth is for mine owne part I knew of it two daies and no more before the meeting and I excepted against the day appointed as beeing too neere and sudden for a man to prepare either to oppose or answer in so spacious and â—ast a Question 〈◊〉 from Christ to Lâ—ther yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistanâ— onely in the 〈◊〉 yeelded The second straw you stumbled at is That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question And what if the Reader did so beleeue It is certaine that there is a second 〈◊〉 in your Question And what 〈◊〉 then had it beene to set before the second Vtrum the figure 2 Howsoeuer there was no fault in the Protestant Relaâ—our but in the Printer who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy for the figure 2. In the
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the Names can bee shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the Names cannot be shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What Answer you to the Conclusion also This is a Strain of new Logick M. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the etemity of faith by Professers to be named and not to bee named What are Professers nominable or innominable to the eternity of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny that the Protestant Church is so eternall as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetuall and visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this Proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speak you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirm the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heer M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should be made when it came to their turn to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The Summe of your former Answer was that the Minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Therefore your Answer is false and impertinent And first my Minor is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the Antecedent that it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be prooued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chief end of our Dispute which was as I said before that infallible truth may bee learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the Minor is pertinent That Minor Proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the Conclusion of the Minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that Minor denied But the Minor Proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor last denied Therefore the Minor of that Syllogism is pertinent Note that M. Fishers Answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other suggesting priuately and amending what they thought fit Which breeding much delay irkesom to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher M. Chamberlane standing by said Let him alone for he and his learned Councell are not yet agreed M Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Minor proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor in such manner as it may serue for the purpose to which the whole Dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it doe inferre the conclusion yet not in such manner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole Dispute was ordained I deny the Maior Heere the Disputants iarred and so the Writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That Minor which together with the Maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per direct a media is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained But this Minor together with the Maior directly and necessarily inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per directa media Therefore it is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your Media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a Bull. M. Fisher. Media directa yet not addirectum finem that is direct and not direct for Media are said to be directa only ratione finis in regard of the end M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus When a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio a genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs bee perpetuall Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the Visibility of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus D. Good M. Sweet you once learned better Logick in Cambridge then you shew now Heere againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names Where are your names D. White sayd D. White This is nothing but an apparant tergiuersation you will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our argument and therefore I require you M. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each party to haue an houre and a
half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder and deformation Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery as of Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences c. for such professed opposing could not bee imagined before such errors were in beeing But as the Fathers before the Councell of Nice did not in words define 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely that is of a like substance nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indeed or maintainers of the right beliefe touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants who holding nothing against the protestant faith deliuer some doctrines and positions from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God or no. Of the tearme Visible A Church may be said to be visible two manner of waies either Visible to the whole world and that eminently and in some sort pompously as the Roman Empire kingdom of Naples or respublica Venetorum in which sense the Papists affirm that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible but wee denie it Or visible to all the members of that Church either such as God hath already called or such as he will call in time who by searching and due inquirie may and shall finde out the true Church their mother In this question we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages in the first acception but in the later onely wee maintaine a visible but not a conspicuous eminent and glorious face of a Church in all Ages consisting of an apparant Hierarchy as the Papists teach I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church The first assertion The Church in the most strict and proper acception thereof is the whole company of Gods elect Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes describeth her The generall assembly and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel There is one Church of the elect both going before and following after And againe vpon the Canticles Christ according to the grace of his foreknowledge hath built a holy Church of Saints which shall eternally perseuer in grace And Saint Bernard This is the Church of the Elect. Of this Church Saint Austen speaketh most expresly He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world yet poore Iohn Hus as H. C. a zealous Papist rightly obserueth was burnt by the decree of the Councell of Constance for saying no more in this point then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him viz. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate and of them onely But the best is as our Humfrey speaketh pertinently Combustus est non confutatus Hussius Iohn Hus was indeed burned but hee was neuer confuted His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond neuer to bee razed out for it is Gods truth The foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale The Lord knoweth them that are his And so I fall into my second assertion The second assertion The Church in this acception as it consisteth of the elect onely is knowne to God onely and consequently is inuisible This the Apostle teacheth The Lord knoweth them that are his And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words I will giue him a white stone and in it a new name written which no man knoweth sauing hee that receiueth it For what man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is in him The heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things who can knowe it I the Lord search the heart I try the reines This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God to sound the bottome of mans heart the faithfull acknowledge in their deuâ—utest prayers as Salomon Thou euen thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men And Ieremie Thou that triest the Righteous and seest the reines and the heart And the eleuen Apostles Thou Lord which knowest the harts of all men Now if God onely knowe the heart he onely knowes who beleeue in him and loue him in sincerity of heart Therefore let none saith Saint Cyprian arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely to weet in the floore of the Church to take the fanne and seuer the chaffe from the wheat The elect are the first borne whose names are written in heauen Heb. 12. 23. Now what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen Saint Prosper forbeares it defining that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those who are predestinated to eternall life Whence we may rightly conclude that the Pope in canonizing Saints and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem incurres into a praâ—unire by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour from vessels of dishonour that is the elect from the reprobate But our aduersaries obiect If wee restraine the Church to the elect and pronounce them inuisible we make a Platonicall Idea or an aerâ—all body or mathematicall abstract of the Church Heereunto we answer first out of Saint Prosper Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum tam impium est negare quà am ipsi gratiae contraire It is as impious to deny that the number of the elect is certaine with God as to deny grace it selfe And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea which is most certaine in the knowledge of God Secondly we teach not that the Church in this notion is an Idea extra rem or singularia or a body houering in the aire or floting in the fansie we teach that it truly subsisteth partly in heauen in the triumphant and partly on earth in the militant part therof This militant part though in respect of the whol number inward
Oracles of the Prophets the countenance of the Church is figured when at the first rising againe shee is renued into the ages of the moneth shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night and by little and little filling her hornes or right ouer against the Sunne rounding them doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse The sixt assertion The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible conspicuous and ample then the true Church and consequently eminent Visibility amplitude and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church The glorious face and outside of a Church which dazleth our aduersaries eyes was rather against Michea then for him all the Prophets prophecied c. It was rather against Eliah then for him for there were 450 Priests of Baal besides Câ—â—marims and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe It was rather against Ieremy then for him when all the Priests took counsell against him saying The law shall not depart from the Priest c. Nay the glorious outside and face of a Church was rather against Christ himselfe then for him All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus Since Christs death to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks the Arrians vndoubtedly would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp for some hundreds of yeres if that were a safe triall for Saint Ierome complaineth Tunc vsiae nomen abolitum est tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est Then the name of substance was abolished then the condemnation of the â—â—cene Creed was proclaimed the whole world sighed and maruelled that it became Arrian Vincentius putâ— theâ— case what was to be done Quando saith he Arrianorum venenuÌ„ non ià m portiunculam quandam sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion but in a manner the whole world insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops partly by force and partly by cunning were intrapped and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes These things beeing so may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Where are they now who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs and boast of their wealth who define the Church by multitude and despise the little flock of Christ who honour the sand and reproach the greater lights of heauen who treasure vp Check-stones and passe by Margarites The seauenth Assertion When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church in opposition to the other the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church is by trying their doctrine by Scripture To this touch-stone of truth the Prophet Esay directeth vs To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them And our blessed Sauiour Search the Scriptures for in them you think yee haue eternall life And S. Peter We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie vnto which you doe well if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place By this rule the Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Saint Austen best approoueth of this course to come to the knowledge of the true Church In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church And Non audiamus Haec dico Haec dicis sed audiamus 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus Sunt certi libri Dominici quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam Let vs not heare I say this or Thou saist this but let vs heare This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God to whose authority wee both consent there let vs seeke the Church And after much debating the matter hee concludeth the Chapter with these words Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus therefore let vs seeke her the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures And Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam Aug. ep 48. Saint Basil directeth vs to the same course 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With whomsoeuer doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side To forbeare more allegations the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew hearing the name of S. Chrysostome deliuereth a firmer conclusion in formall and expresse tearmes and that seuerall times shewing that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it 〈…〉 modis â—stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi et quae Gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur quae vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per Scripturas quare quia omnia haec quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate habent et haereses illae in schemate similiter Ecclesiam similiter scripturas similiter baptismum similiter eucharistiam et caetera omnia demâ—m ipsum Christum Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis nisi tantummodo per Scripturas Et pòst Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scripturaâ— Formerly it was shewed many waies what was the true Church of Christ and what was Gentilism but now it is knowne no other way which is the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures Wherefore because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth euen those heresies haue in shadow in like manner the Church in like manner the Scriptures in like manner Baptisme in like manner the Lords Supper and all other things finally Christ himselfe Hee therfore who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it in such a great confusion of multitude but onely by the Scriptures And a little after Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it but onely by the Scriptures It is obserued by those who follow the Law that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement iurisdiction of the Court he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries but distrust and despaire of their cause to detract as they doe from the perfection and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for deciding all controuersies And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in caâ—sa diffidentiam
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of scripture-Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
of the second For as when the people at Capua were so incensed against the Senatours that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too a wise man among them aduised them before they put the ould Senatours to the sword to thinke of fitter men to put in their places which when they could not agree vpon in the end it was resolued that the ould should continue In like manner if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie as the Iesuites make this to bee I require of the Iesuites to produce fitter men better Authors who liued in those times in case they cannot then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde not to make such as wee wish And therefore Scaliger as truly as tartly reproueth Baronius quod Annales faceret non scriberet that he wrote not Annales but made them out of his owne braine A true Record though neuer so foule-written and torne is better then a forged Deed though neuer so faire and legible Some later Papists excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs shall not disable those Authors vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them For example though Genebrard or Coccius or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas Vâ—spergensis or 〈…〉 Câ—rdinalis or Platina or Auentinus yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists These cautions and distinctions premised I will now set downe the state of this second question in the Assertions following The first Assertion AMong the Professors of the Truth there may be differences of iudgement not onely touching rites and ceremonies and matters of discipline but also touching points of doctrine so the points be not main and fundamentall or such as are cleerly â—nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Teâ—ts of Scripture This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul If any man build on this Foundation gold c. or hay and stubble c. if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer losse but hee himself shall be saued c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine without which a man cannot be saued and doctrines built vpon the Foundation which may be held or not held without danger of saluation Saint Ambrose alludes If there be any Church which refuseth faith and â—eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine lest it should cast any spot on vs it must bee forsaken And Saint Prosper where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies Some like the Pelagian poisoning the bowels and surprising the very vitals of Christs mysticall Body others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart and therefore not so dangerous Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall and not fundamentall The former he calleth Fidei regulaâ—â— the rule of faith the later Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas subtill questions concerning the Law of God in which he saith we need not much seek the Fathers consent Saint Austen also when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction Sanctus inquit Constantinopolitanusnegat esse in paruulis originale peccatum Holy saith he Iohn of Constantinople denieth that originall sinne is in little children Absit vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis maximeque Romano Innocentio Carthaginensi Cypriano Cappadoci Basilio Gregorio Nazianzeno Gallo Hilario Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant alius aliò vna de re meliùs aliquid dicit veriùs Hoc autem de quo nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta GOD forbid that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops especially Innocent Bishop of Rome Cyprian of Carthage Basil of Cappadocia Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France and Ambrose of Millain Some things there are in which the most learned and best defenders of the catholique rule the bond of faith preserued do somtimes not agree among themselues and one in some one thing saith somewhat better and righter than another But this wherein now we deal belongeth to the very grounds of faith Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction neither we nor the Romane Church nor the Greek nor any Church now in Christendome is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age much lesse in all Ages And therefore if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions I must aduise him in the words of Constantine the Great spoken to Nouatus to make a ladder and go vp to heauen alone As the Fathers differ from vs in some things so also they differ among themselues yet as they esteemed themselues notwithstanding these differences to be members of the same Catholick Church so doo we esteem the said Fathers professors of our Protestant Doctrine Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also and yet they cannot deny but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment Papias the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error and Iustin Martyr Iraeneus Lactantius and the Fathers generally before Saint Ierome's time had their teeth set on edge therewith Scaliger well seen in Antiquity obserues Omnes veteres Christianos etiam infra aetatem Augustini putâsse animas tam piorum quà m impiorum in centro terrae tanquam quodam conceptaculo expectare diem iudicij quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit In candidâ expectare diem iudicij Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt All the antient Christians yea euen before the time of Saint Augustine thought the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly in the centre of the earth as it were in some receptacle to expect the day of iudgement which Tertullian elegantly calls In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion Saint Cyprian findeth great fault with those who before his time administred the
Sacrament without wine vsing water in stead of it If any of our Ancestors either ignorantly or simply hath not obserued and kept that which our Lord hath taught vs c. through our Lords indulgency pardon may bee granted to his simplicity This he proueth to be a grosse error and a foule abuse yet he excludeth not them who are tainted with this spot from hope of saluation And Saint Cyprian himself had reason to censure charitably an errour in others because himself needed at least a pardon of course for his opinion touching re-baptizing for his zeal against Hereticks transported him so farre that he rejected and disannulled Baptisme administred by them whereby he may seem to touch dangerously vpon the rock of the Donatists heresie yet Saint Austen doubteth not to affirm that he made a recompence for this his errour by the aboundance of his charity in his life and plentifull effusion of his bloud for the testimony of Christ at his death As it was said of Augustus Pompeij statuas erigendo suas confirmauit that by erecting Pompey's statues hee made his owne stand the longer so we may truely say that Saint Austen by framing the former Apology for Cyprian made the easier way in the mindes of all indifferently-affected for his owne defence I would that this most judicious Doctor of the Church for whom all the Christian Churches striue as the Greek Cities for Homer nihil quicquam humani pateretur But I haue learned from Vincentius Nuditatem reuerendi patris nèque meis temerare oculis neque alienis patere velle sed auersum tegere quod est erratum sancti viri nec approbâsse nec prodidisse All that I haue already intimated rather than expressed in this kinde is to shew that euery prick is not a wound euery spot not a sâ—ain in an ancient Writer that euery difference in judgement makes not a rent in the Church and consequently that although Waldo or Wicklef or Husse or any other fore-runner of Luther's reformation in our daies might haue some priuate differences between themselues and from vs as the ancient Doctors had yet that these discords hinder not but that they and wee may beare a part in some concent and harmony of belief on earth and sing the same Halleluiah in heauen As for those foule aspersions of Sorcery Manichisme maintenance of impurity and subiecting God to the diuell and the like laid vpon the Waldenses and Albingenses Wicklef and the Hussiâ—es or any of them we shall easily blowe them away euen by the breath of our Aduersaries in the declaration of the next conclusion The second Assertion The Professors of the truth haue had alwaies false scandals laid vpon their faith and life Our blessed Redeemers most holy Doctrine and sanctified life escaped not the slanders of malicious tongues set on fire of hell Saint Stephen was traduced for blasphemie against God and Moses Saint Paul for Heresie I tremble to rehearse what malice hath broached against the Saints and Martyrs in the Primitiue Church as that they worshipped an Asse head et antistituÌ„ suoruÌ„ genitalia that they murthered Infants and sed vpon their flesh and licked their bloud that putting out the lights they committed incest and all manner of filthinesse one with another Let Rubius and Parsons and Sanderâ—â— and Coccius and Cocleus and Bâ—lsack rid the bottom of their rancorous stomack against Walde Wiclef and Hus and Luther and Caluin they cannot voyd worse matter of fiction then such as the Heathen vented against the Primitiue Christians But as God in former times vsed the tongue of Pliny and diuers other Gentiles to licke out those blots which were cast on the Christians by Gentiles so in these later times also hath God made the tongues of Papists themselues to serue as spunges to wipe away Popish aspersions vpon the aboue-named Professors of truth For the 9. Articles obiected in particular to the Waldenses by Antoninus Prateolus Lutzenburgius Parson Doctor Vsher now Lord Bishop of Methe hath so cleared them euen by the testimonies of Papists from those erronious assertions and scandalous aspersions that the Papists themselues seeme to be ashamed of their shameless slanderâ— It shall suffice for the strengthning of my former conclusion to call in three or foure Papists of note for their purgation they are Du Hallyan Rainerius Thuanus and Cocleus Hallyan speakes but lispingly because he durst not speake plaine yet hee saith enough to conuince the enemies of the truth of shamefull calumniation The principall point saith he which brought the Waldenses into vniuersall hatred and which charged them with more euill opinions then they had was the libertie they tooke to blame the dissâ—lutenes of Princes and of the Clergie yea to tax the Popes themselues this was the Helena that wrought all their troubles as Rainerius the Inquisitor ingenuously confesseth This sect hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the articles contained in the Creed solummodò Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant et Clerum onely they speake euill of the Church of Rome and of the clergie Thuanus after hee had set downe truly the opinions of the Waldenses wherein they concurre with the Reformed Churches at this day addeth His praecipuis et certis eorum doctrinae capitibus alia affict a sunt de coniugio resurectione animarum statu post mortem c. To these especiall and certaine heads of their doctrine there are other added concerning wedlock the resurrection the state of soules after death c. Neuer did any mans stomacke more boyle with rancor and malice against any then Cocleus his against Wiclef whom hee condemneth to greater torments in hell then Iudas or Nero yet the truth extorted from Cocleus himselfe so much as in the iudgement of any indifferent man may cleare him and his scholer Hus froÌ„ those erroneous Articles that were laid to Hus his charge When hee was required by the Bishops to abiure the doctrine hee had taught he refused so to do lest he should wound his conscience and the truth of God but withall protesteth and that solemnly and that three seuerall times and that at the instant of his death that hee neuer held any of those Articles which the false witnesses deposed against him but held and taught and wrâ—te alwaies the contrary In a word hee breathed out his last gaspe with a complaint against his false accusers for laying to his charge doctrines hee neuer held taking it vpon his death that hee taught nothing but the truth of the Gospel which he would now seale with his bloud Hee had no sooner thus cleared his innocencie but his enemies set fire on the â—agot and burnt the Saint of God to ashes And shall wee imagine that Wiclef with whom Iohn Hus praied that his soule might bee after death whose picture Ierome of
This Cope acknowledgeth in his Dialogues As for corrupting antient Authors and circumcising later I referre all that desire to be satisfied in this point to T. I. his Treatise of the corruptions c. as also to the Indices expurgatorij Quiroga and Sanctouall The flourishing Fencer Campian in his first reason termeth Protestants difficiles Aristarchâ—s 〈◊〉 arrepta virgula censoria si quae ad stomachum 〈◊〉 faciunt obliterant But doe not Papists more truly deserue to bee censured censorious Aristarchi For as Aristarchus vsed to raze out the verses of Homer which hee liked not so hee that hath but halfe an eie may see that the Romanists in their Indices expurgatorij blot out of all sorts of Authors whatsoeuer liketh them noâ— or any way makes against them But wee hope wee shall shortly haue a Vindex for their Index And therefore leauing the further prosecution of this point I will now set downe my last Assertion and generall conclusion Notwithstanding all the difficulties aboue-mentioned yet God hath not left his truth though too much opposed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee without witness in all Ages as may appeare by the learned labors of diuers Protestants aboue mentioned out of whose large fields as also mine owne particular obseruations I haue gleaned a brief Catalogue which may suffice to poynt out a Protestant successiue Church from Age to Age. The beginning of the Catalogue For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe and maintaine in the Church of England I alledge IN the first Age from Christs birth to 100 yeeeres CHRIST IESVS The twelue Apostles Saint Iohn Baptist. Saint Mark Saint Luke Saint Paul with his schollers Titus Timothy and the Churches planted or watered by them Romanes Corinthians c. Clemens about the yeere 90. Ignatius about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote The Tralians Magnesians Tarsians Philadelphians c. In the second Age from 100. to 200. Polycarpus 140. Iustin Martyr 150. Methodius 155. Dionysius Corinthiacus 158. Hegesippus 160. Melito Sardensis 170. Polycrates cum Synodo Asiaâ—â—ca 180 Saint Irenaeus 190. Clemens Alexandrinus 200. These Professors of the truth 〈◊〉 denying others I alledge for the two 〈◊〉 centuries further we proceeded not in 〈◊〉 Conference and therefore heere I 〈◊〉 a stop for a time and withall a challenâ—â— to M. Fisher to set downe the names 〈◊〉 his supposed Papists for these two 〈◊〉 Ages together with such poynts of 〈◊〉 Romish Religion as he will prooue 〈◊〉 they maintained which after hee haâ—â— done I will make good my witnesses anâ— disprooue his and then proceed to 〈◊〉 succeeding Ages euen vnto Luther if 〈◊〉 permit Hic rhodus hic saltus Hic modus haec nostro signabitur area currâ— A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer vnder the name of A. C. to a Treatise intituled The Fisher caught in his owne Net AS Velleius Paterculus obserues that In the battell at Philippi in which Brutus should haue taken Anthony to task and Cassius Augustus it fell out cleane contrary so that Brutus met with Augustus and Anthony marched against Cassius So it came to passe in this present combate D. White prepared and prouided to encounter M. Fisher his former Antagonist and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant to deale in a second place with M. Sweet if occasion were offered Yet vpon a cunning trick of the Iesuite discouered immediately before the Conference it was then on the place of the meeting resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibility of the Protestants Church and D. White as there should bee cause should take off M. Sweet if he interposed as also answer in the contrary question propounded to the Iesuites touching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages Thus D. Featly who intended to be but an Assistant contrary to his expectation was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation Wherin that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell and satisfie his Auditory hee set before his eies certaine rules partly taken out of Scripture partly out of the antient Fathers to direct his proceedings by them The first rule is Saint Paul's Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory God is not in the fire of contention nor in the whirle-winde of passion but in the still voice of them who in meeknesse of spirit seeke the truth out of loue of truth it selfe not of desire of victory Nolunt Scripturâ— ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt The Scriptures will not instruct those who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well if the water bee cleere we may easily discerne it but if troubled it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it For this cause D. Featly in the beginning of the disputation as is confessed by A. C. earnestly besought M. Fisher to deale sincerely as in the sight of God setting aside all passion and by-respects and when M. Sweet propounded that condition that all bitter speeches should be auoided D. Featly with the rest most willingly accepted of it and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it The second rule is Nazianzens 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is the best order in all speech and actions to begin and end with God According to which prescription D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ended partly with a doxologie adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour blessed for euer at whose Name all knees must bow both in heauen and earth and vnder the earth partly by an holy adjuration M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudgement The third rule is Epiphanius his who obserueth in a Disputation against the Photinians quòd adhibiti sunt qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae dicebantur quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur there were appointed Notaries who did take that which was said on both sides and their notes afterward were signed by both parties According to which obseruation M. Ailsbury was chosen and accepted of as Notary on both sides and D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers and this schedule containing the substance of the arguments and Answers in the end of the Conference was sealed with three seales the Earle of Warwicks Master Boultons and Master Bugges The fourth rule is Tâ—rtâ—llians first to 〈◊〉 the ground and set vp as it were the goales by determining the state of the question Summam quaestionis saith he certis line is determinemus aduersus Marcionem L. 17. His
the Catholique Church of Christ to Africa and therein to the Sect of Donatus so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome and the Popes adherents We teach with Saint Austen Non Romanos sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit That God promised with an oath to Abraham not the Romans but all Nations for his seed We beleeue that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued and Christs Sacraments administred God calles some by ordinary meanes and consequently there is a Christian Church though neuer hearing of Rome or Papall Iurisdiction who are ordained to saluation Wee account all that professe the name of Christ Doctrine of the Gospell to be members of the visible Catholick Church yet with this difference some are sound members and parts others vnsound and these more or lesse Wee doubt not but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian and Mogol in Asia Africa Europe yea Italy and Rome it selfe euen in the denne of Antichrist And therefore we are the true Catholicks who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam a Church truly Catholicke and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times who damne all sorts of Christians saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age Although our Sauiours words are most true Where there are two or three gathered in my name there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words are most true Vbi tres sunt Ecclesia est licèt Laici sint Where there are three there is the Church yea though those three bee Lay-men and In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est the Church is in one or two men yea Alensis and diuers among you remembred by Tostatus affirme that from the time of Christs suffering vntil his resurrection sides in sol◠remansit beata Virgine that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith and consequently that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her Yet God be blessed for it wee need not to fly to any such defence We shall bring into the field pares aquilas nay plures aquilas more ensignes and banners then you yea incomparably more for the first and best Ages and if you exceed vs in the latter I wish you to remember that in time in liquors the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs Yea but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages as we cannot name one in euery age How proue you this Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand A beggerly Rapsodist whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues and the ragges that remaine as I am informed will be shortly by another puld away Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement and more integrity then our worthy Morton now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield hath prooued him to be yet beeing a knowne Papist to alleage meerely his work and words to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe and therefore you did well in this place to knock at the Buttery-dore And heere I intreat the Reader to note how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite In all the other passages of his Book there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth but heer he is very pleasant now his dull wit is whetted he was not able in all the Conference nor since in his Answer to send out such a flash Will you know the reason The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him and thus he diuines The Protestants cannot abide with any patience when they bee much pressed in this poynt as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference who hauing been called vpon to produce Names burst forth c. It is true I burst forth not into a passion as you would make the Reader beleeue but into a laughter as did the rest of the company neither did I by any gesture or speech discouer my impatience but your folly who when I alledged you reasons and testimonies were not content with them but called for emptie names c. And what was this but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine surprized your iudgement you might haue vnderstood plainly perceiued that I cōpared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith to a Buttery-book but such a Catalogue as you then required and you vsually bring to proue the visiblity of your church viz. a companie of names and nothing else testes sine testimonijs witnesses deposing nothing for you And may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books Note Reader say you what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke then any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his apostasie more respected the Butterie then any ecclesiasticall storie I maruell not that you Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry and the Blacke-gard of Rome haue a sharpe tooth against Luther who by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery and baked for the Popes Kitchin Certainly if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with hee did but hold that which hee got among you for after hee for sooke Sodom which you Apostataes call apostasie hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers and so sharpely inueighed against them that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him yet hee could not but confesse that hee was much too blame in two things that hee presumed to touch the Popes Crowne and the Monkes bellie Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities strike him out of your Butterie-booke and put Father Parsons in his place the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion or religious equiuocation because good man his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford and hee expeld for falsifying the Butterie-booke and thereby cozening and purloining the Students of that Colledge The Protestant Relation Paragraph the seauenth touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori and à posteriori Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall is so visible that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall Ergo. Master Fisher. Faith eternall Who euer heard of faith eternall Saint Paul saith that faith
Prince Castilians Courtier namely Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia extra anni solisque vias To vndertake to make a demonstration consisting ex veris primis immediatis prioribus notioribus causis conclusionis is all one saith Ludouicus Viues as if to cure a most dangerous disease a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples the first whereof is found in India the second amongst the Ceres the third in the Riphean Hilles and the fourth in the nest of a Phenix If that demonstration which they call potissima the soueraigne demonstration and non parâ—iell containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe consisting of all tearmes reciprocall and all propositions inabled and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de omni per se et quatenus ipsum were any where in vse it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks the most certaine Science and fullest of euident demonstrations but Pererius the Iesuite and others with him vndertake to prooue that the Mathematicians vse no such demonstrations and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude that such absolute demonstrations exalted to the highest degree of necessity presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding are meere imaginary speculations Let the Philosophers and Logicians among themselues end this controuersie I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side But setting aside that Idea of demonstration and speaking of such demonstrations à priori or à causâ as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration as demonstrations go current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick The Church holding the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith grounded on the eternall Gospell Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith c. For the Maior or first proposition it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed before in the setting downe of the state of the Question touching the Visibility of the Church assertion the fourth and partly vpon that Text of the Apostle With the hart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse and with the tongue confession is made vnto saluation The Minor or assumption is most necessarily true because this eternall faith is the formall cause constituting and making the true Church for as Laurentius rightly argueth Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam quatâ—nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei Romani c. sedquatenus sunt fideles ergo fides doctrina fidei est causa formalis interna Ecclesiae et per eam Ecclesia constituitur et per eandem dignoscitur Men make not the Church simply as they are Europeans or Romanes or Africans or Britans or the like but as they are of the faithfull or holding the faith therefore faith and the Doctrine thereof is the formall and internall cause of the Church and by it the Church is made a Church and distinguished from all other societies Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith a proper attribute or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 demonstrated of the proper subiect the true Church by the proper and neerest cause the eternity of faith and what more is to be required in a true demonstration à priori You will say this demonstrateth that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible but not that the Protestant Church I reply either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church or not if it be supposed to bee the true Church then hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted then you should haue primarily denied this and put vs to the proofe of it which beeing prooued would inferre the Visibility but this you did not and I think durst not in the Conference for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced yet now since the Conference you are growne so hardy as to deny it and therefore thus I proue it A Church holding professing entirely the perpetuall faith needfull to saluation is a true Church The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith c. Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur. The Maior is confessed of all sides and must be so because there is no saluation without the Church where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed there must needs bee the Church The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed The Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth is the perpetuall faith c. The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth The Assumption is thus confirmed The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures contained in the three Creeds The Apostles Creed the Nicen Creed and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures and contained in the three Creeds and foure Councels aboue-named Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints In this last Syllogisme the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies First by the publique profession and practice of the Church of England and other Protestant Churches Secondly by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith out of the principles aboue-named Thirdly by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe And first it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches that the Protestant Doctrine is that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued vnder paine of eternall damnation which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them All the Protestant Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named and for the foure first generall Councels there is no Protestant who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood if hee be cald thereunto Secondly there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance where and when they will we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field On the contrarie besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture therefore according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques Cùm
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and
Mother of the rest nay the whole Church There hath she her paterne from the Donatists of appropriating to her self the title priuiledges of the Church excluding all other from the hope of saluation So the Romanists cast into hel all the Christians of Greece Russia Armenia Syria Aethiopia because they refuse to be subiect to the tyranny of the pope as also the States kingdoms of Europe which haue freed themselues from their Aegyptiacall bondage That the Romanists abuse vs with pretences of antiquity vnitie vniuersalitie making the simple beleeue that al is antient which they professe and that the consent of all Ages is for them whereas it is easie to prooue that all the things wherein they differ from vs are nothing but nouelties and vncertainties that the greatest part of the Christian world hath been diuided from them for certaine hundreds of yeeres and more to that purpose which in that preface he promiseth and in the tractate prooueth To which booke me thinkes M. Fisher or some other of his pew-fellowes should vndertake in order proutiacet to make answer or else neuer to haue beene so hardie to cite that Author whose lines vpbraid them with iâ—abilitie or negligence so long as they suffer so learned and laborious a treatisely bent point blank against the walles of Rome to remain vnbattered Now to your alleuiation you say in that speech of yours concerning men not able by their owne abilities to finde out the infallible faith you meant not to imply that any were able of themselues without helpe of Gods grace to attaine the true faith I hope you meant not because I trust that you are not sunke so deepe into Pelagianisme Yet you should haue circumcised your lips and tongue and kept better the Apostles rule to hold fast the for me of sound words for what Christian eare can endure to heare of men able by their owne ability of wit or learning to find out faith Wit and learning I grant are Gods good gifts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not to bee vnder-valued much lesse contemned yet let me tell you that wit and learning without grace such is the corruption of our nature rather hinder then further our conuersion as Saint Austen writes in his confessions not with inke but with teares and on the contrary grace without eminent wit or learning outstrips naked wit learning in our race to heauen Indocticoelum rapiunt et nos cum doctrinis nostris c. As for that which you adde that Visibility though alone it prooue not the true Church yet that it much helpeth to the proof thereof I much desire you to help me heere in shewing me how it much helpeth for Visibility is but a common accident and I finde no topick place in Aristotle ab vno accidente communi ad subiectum Suppose a meere naturall man were to choose his religion and his Church what will Visibility helpe him Besides all sorts of Christian Churches Iewish Synagogues Mahumetane and Gentile Congregations are visible will you say That is the truer Church which is more visible If you carrie it away from vs by that marke the Greek Church will carrie it away from you the Mahumetanes from the Greeke Christians and the Idolatrous Gentiles from all But this poynt hath bin handled before in my sixt eight Assertion touching the Visibility of the true Church therfore omitting all farther prosecution of this point and my proofe by Syllogisme I come now to iustifie my induction The Protestant Relation Paragraph the tenth touching the induction and breaking vp of the Conference The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may be produced in the first hundred yerees and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer c. M. Fisher. Name of all Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once Will you haue me name men of so many Ages at one breath c M. Fisher. You shall not begin at Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles c. M. Fisher. Name the rest in all Ages and then I will answer D. Featly First answer to the first Age and then I wil proceed to the second c. M. Fisher. I will not answer you any thing till you haue made your Catalogue D. Featly M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement to answer directly whether Christ and his Apostles taught our faith or yours c. Notwithstanding this deep Charge M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles c. Master FISHER'S Answer by a Counter-relation After this D. Featly named for the first Age our Lord and Sauiour Christ and his twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and Saint Ignatius After which he staied awhile as if he had studied for more Names but not remembring any more whom he would set down for the first Age he said These not denying others may serue for the first Age. Then turning to M. Fisher he said Let vs dispute of these No said M. Fisher name first of all Ages What said D. Featly Will you not dispute of Christ and his Apostlâ—es Yes said M. Fisher in due place but first name the rest in all ages and then I will answer you What said D. Featly Doo not Christ and his Apostles deserue the first place M. Fisher. I will not answer before you haue named the rest Then said D. Featly in a heat Well you will not dispute of Christ and his Apostles then you grant Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants And so instantly without expecting M. Fisher's Answer he turned himselfe to the Audience and said Hee grants Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants Whereupon diuers of the Audience made such a shout as if they had gotten a victory with such a noise as M. Fisher endeuouring to answer for a time could not be heard But he rising vp and with his hand and voice crauing silence made such as would heare him vnderstand how falsely D. Featly had slandered him to his face and either then or vpon some like occasion he said What may I expect behinde my back when you thus mis-report mee to my face And in this sort when many of the company were willing to depart D. Featly beeing called vpon as it seemed by some of his companions to goe away did arise and offer to be gone yet in his rising he turned to M. Fisher saying Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles or no To which M. Fisher said I will if you will stay and stretching out his hand hee took D.
moment and ground of the whole question Hee putteth the case that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse Surely a blind or verie credulous creditor that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket O patience Good Sir Creditor if you can vpon your credit make good that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne namely Christ and his Apostles are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest But if this field wherein this precious pearle lyeth bee by good title ours as I then would and at any time hereafter can proue I think vpon such conuiction you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie Doe but looke on this coyne though loth and see whose image and superscription it carryeth is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter the Scriptures They are ours by Christ Christ ours by them The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles that Christ and his Apostles and Euangelists cannot bee admitted nay will not bee embased to bee mingled with such drosse But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money Similie I thought you had vowed pouerty and might not touch siluer I haue heard of some of your orders that if they touch coyne it blisters their hands as it is reported of a certaine Lady that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep it will make it blister But it seemeth to mee that you are Theocritus his Fisher you fish for gold and if you are not wronged haue caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net and transported them beyond the seas carrying Rem ad non res no smal stock to English Nunneries I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie to illustrate this passage in the conference thus you may frame it Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ to bee sixteen-hundred pound suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound I by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age lay downe a hundred pound of the summe and bid you tell it after me and then demand of you whether the summe bee right You answer that you will tell mee after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds I presse you again againe to answer concerning this first summe whether it be right or no if it be right I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner You answer as before Lay downe the rest or you shall not begin with the first next heap but with the last in coÌ„clusion I charge you as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master whose factor you pretend to bee to giue-ouer all cauilling plainly directly to answer me whether this first sum be right or not and when notwithstanding this deep charge you trifle cauill the witnesses who were to set their hands to my acquittaÌ„ce pul me away saying You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor This is a true perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eleuenth touching the issue of the Conference This Conference though it took not that progresse which was desired by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument yet it hath not beene fruitlesse for since that time the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde and gaue him many thankes for the said meeting and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes and whereas formerly by their sophisticall perswasions hee was in some doubt of the Church hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company and their doctrine also Master FISHER'S Answer I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator saith is not true for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature for first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to bee made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey If immediately after the Conference it would argue too much want of capacitie for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied as I verily hope hee did hee might easily haue marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off and 〈◊〉 produce names of Protestants in all Ages the which producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages and yet beeing onely pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther at the question required any meane capacitie might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied was not fully answered nor consequently hee satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman beeing present when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages hee might easily and doubtlesse did vnderstand that as yet 〈◊〉 in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which hee expected Answer Furthermore presently after hee went away from the Conference hee told M. Fisher himselfe that hee was glad that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not â—ore solute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M Sweet hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the 〈…〉 that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweet haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctors to make theirs ready that hee bring to them the Doctors Catâ—logue with one hand and receiue theirs with the others to deliuer to the Doctors All that can bee suspected is that in the very time of the said stir when the old Gentleman either was or feared to bee called in question it may perhaps bee that he might say those words which the Relator mentioneth But this if
Thus possessed and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident assertions and false suggestions hee with much adoe by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes procures a Conference wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect Hee and all the Auditory obserued D. White and my selfe to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions both to prooue the Visibility of our Church and disprooue theirs On the contrary he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs to hinder speedie and direct proceedings and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church First hee heard that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church beeing a point of faith was not to bee built vpon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors as the Iesuite required but vpon diuine reuelation in Gods Word as is confessed by learned Papists Secondly that a Protestant Church might haue beene visible in all Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produced and prooued out of good Authors because neither all mens names euer were vpon record nor are all antient Records preserued to this day neither can wee come by all those Records that are yet extant Thirdly that notwithstanding the Popish brag that All the Christian world were Papists before Luther yet you were not able to name any Countrey City Village or Hamlet nay not any man who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ either professed your Trent-faith in generall or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in particular Fourthly that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church was á priori by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures of which faith God promiseth in his Word that it shall haue visible Professors to the worlds end Fiftly that a visible Church inferrs not necessarily a right faith Iews Mahumetanes Gentiles and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks haue visible professors of their impieties yet are they all of a wrong beliefe if of any on the contrary the right faith inferreth necessarily a visible Church because the true faith cannot bee in a Church which professeth it not openly or priuately therefore the prime and maine question of all is of the right beliefe of the primitiue and Catholique faith whether wee or the Church of Rome haue it and not of a Catalogue of names Sixtly that an offer was made to name some eminent persons which in al Ages taught Protestant Doctrine and opposed the Romish errors either when they came in or not long after and that this Catalogue had beene a good way proceeded in if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations Lastly that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles and vrged you againe and againe yea and adiured you also to answer directly whether they taught our faith or yours yet you peremptorily and finally refused so to doe which hee might well interpret to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause And now let the discreet Reader iudge whether M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opinion concerning you and your cause at least in that particular of which only he seemed to doubt of Shortly after the Conference M. Fisher sent this Letter ensuing to the right honorable the Earl of WARVVICK The Copie of M. Fisher's Letter RIGHT HONOVRABLE LORD I Esteeme it a speciall prouidence of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherein D. White and D. Featly vndertook to shew against mee and my companion that the Protestant Church had beene visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in the Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proofe to haue consisted in this that The true Church was alwaies so visible as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named but the Protestants was the true Church Wee refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferd the Question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to prooue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily neglected Certainely heereby they are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it For hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church that is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to bee and the Church whose faith is eternall and vnchanged must bee is able to name her Professors in all Ages either for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set down the names of their Professors in all Ages or else they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yeelding as they did to shew the continual Visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they stick in the first Age alone refusing to name their professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tried May not the Answerer choose to deny which part of the Argument hee pleaseth and was it euer heard that hee should bee inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogism or Induction were fully propounded Very nobly therefore and prudently your Lordship in the end desired anotheâ— meeting not doubting that your owne partie within three or foure daies would be content to giue vs the names of their Professors in all Ages as wee were ready to giue them the names of ours that thereby both sides might bee the better prepared for a second triall which when they haue performed wee shall not faile to encounter with them either by way of speech or writing as your Lordship all things considered shal think fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of truth But if your Lordship shall not bee able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and importâ—nt request the defect of proofe on their part must needs bee accounted a plaine flight and no man heereafter can prudently rely his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall Visibility prooued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and feigned Thus expecting the issue heereof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine the first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ IOHN FISHER Doctor Featlie's Answer to M. Fisher's Letter IN perusing this Letter of yours I could not but think of the old riddle Hom◠〈…〉 videns
et raâ—gni spiritus quâ— et 〈…〉 verè Theodidacton quales prophetâ—â—it fâ—re Christianos Esayas Neque enim ex hominibus 〈◊〉 iâ—dicari potest sicut nec ego hic si mihi aâ—â—ea fuisset lectus poterat hostibus meis videri Lutherus 〈◊〉 ex Wesselo hausisse adeo spiritus vtriusque 〈…〉 vnum c. To the Christian Reader Martin Luther wisheth saluation in the Lord. The Prophet Elias the Thisbite when the Word of the Lord was precious and vision failed all the Prophets in a manner being slaine by the most wicked Iezabel thought that himselfe had been left alone and therefore being wearie of his life wished that God would take it away from him because being but one he deemed himselfe vnable to beare the intolerable burden of a most wicked people their Princes not knowing that God had reserued to himselfe yet 7000. and that Abdias with a hundred other Prophets lurking in secret were preserued aliue Which Storie if I may compare small things to great seemeth to mee a perfect image or emblem of this age wherein I liue for I by diuine prouidence being drawne into the publique theater of the world so fought with these monsters of Popish Indulgences and Decretals that I thought my selfe to bee alone although I neuer wanted courage in these combats insomuch that I am rather accused of the contrarie of an ouerpoignant stile and fierie zeale yet I alwaies wished that God would take mee from among my Baalites and that being ciuilly dead I might enioy my selfe in some corner vtterly despairing of doing any good vpon the brazen foreheads and iron necks of the wicked But behold it is told mee also as it was told Elias that God hath reserued vnto himselfe a remainder of true beleeuers euen in this time that there are Prophets kept in secret neither is this said onely vnto me but demonstrated vnto me also to my great comfort for Wesselus Frisius Groningensis whom they call Basil is lately set out in print a man of a rare and great spirit and admirable wit who it appeares was truely taught of God as those Christians were to bee of which Esay prophesieth For it cannot bee thought that hee receyued his learning from men as neither did I. If I had read this Author before my enemies might haue thought that I drew all out of Wesselus Store-house his spirit mine so perfectly agree And as Luther agnized Wesselus for his noble forerunner so hee imbraced with truest affection the Waldenses tearmed fratres Pigardi as appeares in his preface before the 〈◊〉 confession Quanqùam fratres hi per Bohemiam et 〈◊〉 agentes 〈…〉 annis odioso nomine Pigardi sen haretici eâ—schism aâ—ici sint traducti visum est meo quaque testimonia 〈◊〉 possum illis seruire◠〈◊〉 quid volet 〈◊〉 â—estimonium praesertim apud 〈◊〉 Cùm esseâ— papista verè et 〈◊〉 animo istos Pigardâ—s fratres odiebaÌ„ magno zelo Dei et religionis nullo emninâ— lucri aut gloriae studio Denique cùm aliquando in aliquot libros Io. Hus impruâ—â—â—s incidissem et Scripturas tam potenter et purè tractatas vidissem vt â—â—â—pere inciperem cur talem ac tantum viruÌ„ exususseâ—â— Papa et Concilium moâ—â— territâ—â— clausi codicem suspicatus venenum sub melle lâ—cre quo 〈…〉 infici posset tam violentum regnabat in 〈…〉 papalis nominis et Concilij Sed post â—uam c. ibi caepit gaudium cordis mei et circumspectis omnibus quos Papa pro hareticis damâ—anerat et perâ—iderat pro Sanctiâ— et Martyâ—â—bâ—â— laudabam praeser tim quorum pia scripâ—â—a vel confessiones potui reperâ—re Inter hos autem occurrâ—bant et isti fratres quos Pigardos vocabant iam mihi non ita inuisi vt 〈◊〉 erant in papistate mea Denique offendi in eis 〈◊〉 illud et magnum miraculâ—â—m in â—eclesiâ Papâ— penè inâ—uditum scilicet quòd omissis homiâ—â—â— dâ—ctriâ—is quantùm poterant meditarentur in lege Domini die ac nocte esseque eos in Scripturis peritos et paratos cùm in papatis ipsimagistri nostri prorsus negligerent Scripturas Et gratulari tum illis tum nobis quòd qui inter nos ipsos quoque longe fuimus destructo nunc interstitio suspitionis quae nobis mutâ—ò haeretici videbamur facti sumus propè et reducti simul sumus in vnum ouâ—le CoÌ„mendo igitur in Domino omnibus piis et hanc confessionem fratrum in qua videbunt clarè quantâ iniuriâ hactenus à Papistis fuerint damnati et vexati Although these brethren dwelling in Bohemia and Morauia haue set forth the confession of their faith doctrine in their owne bookes more dexterously and learnedly then that they need my commendation or preface yet in as much as for these many yeeres they haue been branded with the odious name of Pigards Hereticks and Schismaticks I thought fit to afford them my best testimonie among our owne if yet it beare any weight at all When I was a Papist I truely from my heart hated these brethren tearmed Pigards out of a great zeale of God and Religion and not out of any desire of glory or gainâ— and when 〈◊〉 vnawares I lighted on some of the bookes of Iobâ— Hus and therein obserued the Scriptures so powerfully and so purely handled that I began to maruell why the Pope and his Councell should burne a man of such worth presently I shut the booke suspecting that vnder hony there might lye hid some poyson where-with my simplicitie might haue been infected So strongly was I bewitched with the name of a Pope and a Councell But after that c. there began the ioy of my heart and viewing all those whom the Pope had condemned and put to death for Heretiques I esteemed them as Saints Martyrs especially those whose godly writings and confessions I could finde c. Among these I met with those brethren whom they call Pigards who were not now so hatefull to mee as they had been formerly in the time of my Popery To be briefe I found in these men a miracle and that a very great one almost vnheard of in the Popish Church to wit that these men leauing the doctrines of men to the vtmost of their indeauour meditated in the Law of God day and night and were very readie and skilfull in Scriptures whereas in the papacie the greatest clarkes vtterly neglect the Scriptures And I could not but congratulate both them vs that we who before were far seuered one from another esteeming each other as Heretiques now by the breaking downe of the partition wall of suspition became neere one to the other and were together brought into one Sheepefold Wherefore I commend to all the seruants of God this confession of the Brethren whereby all men may cleerely perceiue how wrongfully they haue beene condemned and vexed by the Papists Now how worthily Martin Luther conceyued of Iohn Hus and Hierom
of Prague it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum viros catholicâ—s combusserunt haeretici ipsi Apostatae Antichristi discipuli they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom both Catholique men they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes and the disciples of Antichrist And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus prefixed to the works of Hus In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope this is one that in the Councell of Constance hee condemned Iohn Hus a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety And in the second preface Has Epistolas sancti Martyris Iohannis Hus c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus And in his third Preface A fide dignis hominibus percepi Imperatorem Maximilianum de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum Hei hei secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam Et Erasmus Roter in primis libellis quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo manifestè scribit Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria Et paulò pòst porrò In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs quorum ipse nonnâ—llâ—s eosque magnos theologos audiui ante annos 30 fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Conciliâ— Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatuâ— esset â—itertâ— inter lâ—gendum obstupefactuâ— admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili quam ob causam tandem exâ—â—â—â—s esset vir tantus in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis c. I haue heard from men of credit that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus Alas alas they did that good man wrong and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth that indeed Iohn Hus was burned but not conuicted This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies concerning Iohn Hus that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him For proofe whereof hee alleageth Doctor Staâ—pritius and Andrew Praule and in the end addeth moreouer It is a thing confessed euen by our Aduersaries themselues some of whom beeing great Diuines I heard 30 yeeres agoe that Iohn Hus was excellently learned and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell I my selfe when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford meeting with a booke of Sermons penn'd by Iohn Hus was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached This book was happily kept from burning lying hid among many other in the publique Library in the reading whereof I was amazed and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be that so great a Clarke so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture should bee burned Thus you see how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth as they had yelded to the Truth And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person Iohn Hus his words were which are yet to bee seene stamped in antient coyne currant among the Hussites Centum reuolutis annis c. After a hundred yeeres you shall answer God and mee and some affirme that hee added Iam Hus that is in the Bohemian Language Goose but there shall follow mee a Swan c. And indeed after a hundred yeeres that Swan appeared in the world which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life and purity of Doctrine Master FISHER Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other countries before Luther did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much but prooueth it by this Argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another saith It is ridiculous to think that in the time before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receiue if from them and 〈◊〉 they from Luther considering saith hee it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then Câ—merian darknesse and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same and to restore the light of true doctrine Doctor FEATLY'S Answer First I would haue you to know M. Fisher that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites such Writers of the petâ—y forme of little antiquity and lesse learning were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity But I perceiue by you M. Fisher that according to the Prouerb all is fish that commeth to your net If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they Regius alledged by your owne Brerely testifyeth most expresly the contrary Dico fuisse ante Lutherum verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit I say that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther although this company was not agnized by the Papists nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at by reason of the Popish tyrannie Whitaker auowes Regius Our Church was then viz. in the Ages before Luther But it was not visible saith Bellarmine to weet in the Popish sense What then Will it follow that therefore it was not at all in the world By no meanes for it lay hid in the Desart Oâ—colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses are extant in their works I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and Bullinger Vesembekius Viret Vigneaâ—s Caluin Beza Humfrey Fox Illyriâ—us and many other Protestants of higher rank then such sneakers as Schlusenburg or Myllius or Morgenst All the
former acknowledge that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth which since Luther blessed bee God hath beene much more cleerely discouered and trodden then in former times If Protestant Writers sway little with you who yet could better tell then you or M. Sweet and such other new vpstart Iesuites who were Luthers forerunners learne of your owne Rainerius and Claudius de Seissel and Cocleus and Lyndanus and Claudius Rubis and Aeneas Syluius and Iohn Dubranius and Alfonsus à Castro and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet and many other that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther and shewed him his way Yea but Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell Schlusenburgs words are Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ priusquam prodiret Lutherus euangelij doctrinam tenüisse adeoque ipsum Pellicanum priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse Vtenboius writes impudently that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther appeared and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory before the name of Luther was heard For ought I know Vtenboius is as honest a man as Schlusenburgius and if Schlusenburgius deny it Vtenboius affirmeth it yea and for ought is prooued to the contrary Conradus Pellicanus also yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master no way helpeth your cause for admit there were not in Germany yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands as in Bohemia France England c. who before Luther embraced the doctrine of the Gospell Secondly in Germany it selfe there were not multi eruditi viri many learned men yet there might be some for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke His words are Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista causa non fuisset If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation Therefore we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie to whom Luther succeeded for if there had beene such in the Romane Church there had beene no cause to depart from it What makes this testimony for you Is it for the honor of your Church to bee truly branded with Apostasie to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the Papacy will it follow that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere It is true Reformation presupposeth a Deformation as a remedy presupposeth a disease a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged Though the Romane Church or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church was vnsound in the faith and very corrupt and rotten yet were there other sound members of Christs Church in whose steps it is well knowne that Luther trod What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth that There were 〈◊〉 orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther Now for Benedictus Morgenst Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra Hee who found him for you makes him runne the same way with Ioachimus Camerarius but not whither you would haue him They both stand for the honor of Luther and maintaine that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation that none ought to share with him in that dignity in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches They will not endure that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne but out of the Fountaine of liuing water the Scriptures Wicklef indeed saith Ioachimus was instructed by the Waldenses and Hus by Wicklef but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef but was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taught of himselfe out of Scriptures This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther Zuinglius and Pellicanus and Vtenboius and your owne Alfonsus à Castro seeme to make others as ready forward at that time as Luther And indeed whether Luther set Zuinglius or Zuinglius Luther first a-work or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple I hold it needlesse to define Let Luther and Zuinglius and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches Ne sit primus nec vel imus quispiam Will it follow that because Luther was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and did not tind his candle at another mans light therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time but hee It will follow say you because Morgenst addeth that It is manifest to the whole world that before Luther's time all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse And you adde also to Morgenst fiue other corroboratory testimonies of Caluin Bucer Beza Iewell and Perkins whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer I will dismisse you Master FISHER And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Masters I will adde heereunto what is said first by Caluin who doth acknowledge that in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this time ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that there was at that time no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was onely inuisible as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines namely Master Iewel who saith The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell and M. Perkins who saith Wee say that before the daies of Luther for the space of many hundred yeeres an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the world Doctor FEATLY When Caluin saith There was a departure made from all the world and Morgenst That
all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes and Perkins that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth and Iewell that Luther Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God to giue light to the whole world their meaning is not that there was no light in those times in Goshen or that there were no Abdiases with many other Prophets lying in secret or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings But they take the word World as it is vsually taken both in sacred prophane Writers for the greater part of the world or at least that part that beareth the greatest sway and is in a manner onely in voage Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn The whole world is set on wickednesse and the like in S. Ierome Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum the whole world sighed that it became Arrian As Luther so Caluin also acknowledgeth that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth sometimes more sometimes lesse purged And further they deny not but that before the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies there were many that in sundry corners of the earth seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe and clensed it from darnell tares Among whom were Fratres Pigardi a remainder of the Waldenses betweene whom and Caluin many kinde offices passed as their mutuall Letters testifie extant in Caluins works Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin Reuerend in the Lord because aboue 30 yeeres agoe when you remained at Argentine there was an holy league of loue and entire friendship and familiarity betweene you and the brethren who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses our dearest Fathers in the Lord Wee who now hold the place of those our Fathers whom God hath called almost all of them out of this mortall life thought fit to renew that knowledge or rather band of Christian loue wherewith all the seruants of God especially the Ministers of the Gospell ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together To the former letter Caluin returnes this courteous answer Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes for sending the brethren vnto vs who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your loue towards vs and brotherly coniunction which kind office of yours wee the more willingly embrace because it flowed from a sincere loue of true Religion Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vs towards you and the great desire we haue to cherish this holy vnity among vs. For being so farre remooued one from another and compassed round about with enemies who take vp the greater part of the world it is a great delight vnto vs to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion c. Againe the same Caluin in his Epistles Epist. 179. to Stanist Carninsk thus writeth of the Waldenses I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses not onely because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity in which the members of Christ grow vp together but also because in these your rudiments and beginnings I conceiue that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses will bee an extraordinary help vnto you wherefore all of you must doe the vttermost of your endeuours that this holy agreement consent betweene you may more and more be established c. Martin Bucer whom you alleage in the next place held the like correspondence with the Waldenses as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vnto them Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father who hath preserued you to this present time in so great knowledge of his truth and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof hauing made you capable and fit to doe it Behold now what the nature of true faith is which is that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vnto it of God Saint Paul is an example to vs who in all his epistles shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God And doubtlesse if wee pray with a good heart that the name of God be sanctified and his Kingdome may come we shall prosecute nothing with such diligence as the establishment of the truth where it is not and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted One onely thing doth especially grieue mee that our imployments at this time are such about other affaires that wee haue no leasure to answer you at large as we desire c. By the contents of this Letter and many other passages in Bucers Works which for breuities sake I omit it appeares that Bucer in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doctrine did not thereby intend that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the reformed Churches for hee could not bee ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers Bertram Elfrick Berengarius and Petrus Brus and Henry of Tolous and Dulcinus and Arnoldus and Lollardus and Wicklef and Hus and Ierome of Prague and many other Starres fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera But Bucers meaning is that Luther was the first who in our Age and memory publikely and success-fully set on foot a generall Reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering grew now to a ripe coare Luther was the first who openly lanced it Luther formed no new Church but reformed the Church hee found and therefore cannot bee termed The first Apostle of Protestant Doctrine although in a tolerable sense hee may be stiled The first Apostle of the happie Reformation in our daies Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary obscured with rust he made not new gold In your allegation out of Beza by suppressing the Aduerb penè almost you shew your selfe non penè not almost sed penitùs altogether a falsificator Beza's words Epist. 5. are Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus cùm vel nulla vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu We say that then extraordinary calling takes place when there is either no or almost no ordinary vocation of Pastors as in our time fell out in the Papacie This almost you omit altogether For Beza's opinion touching extraordinary calling as I doe not heere oppugne so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine We can and haue prooued lawfull ordinary calling in our Church of England as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject lately reuised by him before his death and translated into Latine at this instant
ceaseth Doctor Featly You haue a purpose Master Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue till his second Comming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shal be so visible that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. Master Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacie called Petitio principii Doctor Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not Petitio principij But such is my Argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder Argument to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Heretikes Mahumetanes and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible Master Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori Doctor Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better then an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapous I list take you what buckler you can Master Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause better then of the cause by the effect In this place or vpon the like occasion againe offered neerer the end of the disputation Master Sweet replied M. Sweet This is to diuert the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good Authors Doctor Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it Master Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori Doctor Featly What a reason is this May not an effect bee prooued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius Master FISHER'S Answer Thus farre the Relator who hath heere added much more then was said and in particular those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Master Fisher did not speake perhaps hee might say That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then à priori not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori before that which is à priori but that such a proofe à posteriori as hee in this present question required and as the question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church as shall be shewed when need is heereafter At this present it may suffieâ—â—â— say to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible and as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting so visible as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker contr Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glorie of the Church is most cleerly witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of Doctor Iohn White in his way p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing all this I say it is most apparant that if there cannot bee produced as there cannot Names of Protestants or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages out of Histories to whom Gods promises agree besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith and of which al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation Doctor FEATLY'S Reply I maruel not M. Fisher that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds for you haue much adoo with all your strength and skil to get yourself out of the mire M. Sweet since he left our Vniuersities and was metriculated into your Society seemes to speak in our Academicall Phrase to haue resumed gradum Simeonis and to haue proceeded backward for whatsoeuer truth in Logick or Philosophy hee had learned in our Schools he hath learned to vnlearn in yours It seemeth he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was who took double pay of his scholars for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others Hee was taught in our Schools that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated but by the cause for Scire est causam scire propter quam c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a scientificall Syllogism proceeding of those things that are former in nature and more knowne and causes of the conclusion All this he hath vnlearned and will needs go about to perswade vs that An effect because it is posterius must needs be proued by an effect and by the same reason that effect by another effect and Thirdly the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie or mystery of iniquity in it which is not the Church but a preualent and predominant faction in it The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member though a sick and weak one of the Catholique visible Church and consequently to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church in the Gospell but the Papacy or that predominant faction is no member but a botch or an aposteme in the Church to which none of those promises belong yet many
prophesies are cleerly fulfilled in it First 1. Tim. 1. 4. Now the Spirit speaketh expresly that In the later times some shall depart from the faith giuing heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of diuels forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath appointed to be receiued with thanksgiuing This Prophesie hath been fulfild in the Papacy euer since Pope Hildebrand's time in which as Auentinâ—â— reports the people in some places trod vnder foot the Hoasts that were consecrated by married Priests Tales enim non esse sacerdotes neque sacrificare Hildebrandus docebat for Hildebrand taught that such were no Priests And again Maritos ab vxoribus separat scorta pudicis coniugibus stuprà incestus adulteriâ— casto praefert matrimonio Hee seuered men from their wiues he preferred harlots before married wiues fornication adultery and incest before chaste marriage And likewise in the Papacy that part of the Prophesie is fulfilled touching the forbidding of certain meats as for example flesh and egges and white meats and the like and that for conscience sake and vnder paine of deadly sin and accounting such abstinence meritorious Secondly that Prophesie in 2. Thes. 2. 9. Comming after the power of Satan in all power of signes and lying wonders is daily fulfilled in the Papacy and no where else See their Legends old and new Thirdly that Prophesie 2. Pet. 2. 18. They allure by the lusts of the flesh through much wantonnesse c. is fulfilled in the Papacy which permitteth publick Stews I might say alloweth because who keep those houses do therefore pay a pension to the Pope Fourthly that Prophesie Iude 16. speaking great swelling words of vanity is fulfilled in the Papacy which teacheth that the Church of Rome is the Mother and Queen of all Churches that the Pope cannot erre that hee is aboue the Law of God that those who adhere to him can more than merit heauen they can supererrogate Fiftly that Prophesie 2 Pet. 2. 3. and Apoc. 18. 3. The Merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies Through couetousnesse shall they with feigned words make Merchandize of you and the like in the Apoc. is fulfilled in the Papacie which draweth an infinite treasure by the Merchandize of pardons and indulgences for releasing soules out of Purgatory Sixtly that Prophesie 2. Thes. 2. 4. Hee as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that hee is God is verified in the Papacie which giueth the Pope the stile of Lord God Head of the Church Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda c. and power to dispence with breach of oathes and incestuous marriages c. Seuenthly that Prophesie 2. Thes. 2. 7. The mystery of iniquity doth already worke onely hee who 〈◊〉 letteth will let vntill he be taken out of the way and 〈◊〉 shall that wicked man be reuealed This I say according to the interpretation of the Fathers Terâ—â—l and Chrysostome is fulfilled in the Papacie Tertullian saith Romani imperij absessiâ— in decem Reges diuisa Antichristum superinducit The decay of the Romane Empire diuided into 〈◊〉 Kings shall bee the bringing in of Antichrist Chrysostome giueth some more light saying When the Romane Empire shall be taken away then hee shall come Now all the world seeth that the Papacie is built vpon the ruines of the Romane Empire and at this day possesseth the seat thereof Eightthly that Prophesie Reuel 9. 3. 7 There came out of the smoke Locusts vpon the earth c. and on their heads were as it were Crownes c. agreeth to your swarmes of Monks and Friers and one of your own Expositors interpreteth their Crownes the round circle vpon your shauelings head like vnto a Crowne Ninthly That Prophesie Reuel 13. 11. And I beheld another Beast comming vp out of the earth and he had two hornes like a Lamb and he spake as a Dragon and hee exerciseth all the power of the first Beast c. agreeth to the Papacie and Pope who resembleth Christ whose Vicar hee calleth himselfe and yet carrieth himselfe like a Dragon in the Church and he exerciseth also the power of the first Beast to weet the Romane Empire described in the first verse by seuen heads and ten hornes because as the first Beast the Romane Empire by power and temporal authority so the Pope by policie and spirituall iurisdiction ruleth ouer a great part of the world Tenthly that Prophesie Reuel 13. 18. Let him that hath vnderstanding count the number of the Beast for it is the number of a man and his number is 666. agreeth to the Pope as I shewed before out of Irenaeus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nomen habet 666. et valdè verisimile est et nouissimum regnum hoc habet vocabulum Latini enim sunt qui nunc regnant that is that name Latinus hath in it these numerall letters which make vp 666. and this is very like to be the name of the Beast the last Kingdome hath this name for they are Latines who now rule Arethas agreeth with Irenaeus in iudgement as Feuer dentius himselfe noteth Eleuenthly that Prophesie Reuel 17. 3. I saw a woman sit vpon a scarlet-coloured Beast full of names of blasphemie hauing seuen heads and ten horns and verse 9 The seuen heads are seuen hils on which the woman sitteth and verse 18 The woman is the City which reigâ—eth ouer the Kings of the earth agreeth with the Papacy as Saint Ierom teacheth vs. Twelfthly that Prophesie Reuel 17. 4. The woman was araied in purple and scarlet color and decked with gold and precious stones and pearles hauing a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and silthinesse of her fornication supra verse 2. With whom the Kings of the earth haue committed fornication and the inhabiters of the earth haue been made drunk with the wine of her fornication agreeth to the Papacy which is set forth in most pompous manner and enticeth the Kings and people of the earth to idolatry which is spirituall fornication Thirteenthly that Prophesie Reuel 17. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the bloud of the Saints and with the bloud of the Martyrs of Iesus agreeth to the Papacy or Romish Synagogue which hath spilt the bloud of many thousand protestant Martyrs since the 1000 yeer in w th Satan was let loose vnder the name of Waldensian and AlbigeÌ„sian hereticks the like names of reproach Fourteenthly that Prophesie Reuel 17. 16. 17. And the tenne horns shall hate the Whore c. for God put in their hearts to giue their Kingdome to the Beast till the Word of God be fulfilled agreeth to the Pope and Papacy to which the greater part of the Kings of the earth after a sort gaue their Kingdomes by submitting themselues and subiecting their Kingdomes to the Antichristian Yoke But now God bee blessed diuers Kings and States whose eies God hath anointed with the eye-salue of the Spirit haue